Scheduled games ruling and possible reclarification

[last beacon]

You want the server to be your own private space to play with your friends indefinitely. Thats not what the server is, what it was made for or what it should be.

[vale fog]

This is what it currently is with the main queues.

[last beacon]

No the main queues are a place to play with a group that is public, storytold by a rotating cast on an egalatarian basis.

[dull crag]

I don’t particularly care how much people run scheduled games. I just take issue with the very evident fact that some specific mods have been attempting to enforce rules that aren’t written down anywhere people can see them (or possibly at all) in unbalanced and biased ways. And those rules as they seem to be implying (I’d quote them but they still haven’t been written down and made public) are not really compatible with satisfying games on more complex or high set up scripts like Whalebuffet, a script that is in insane demand and being run pretty responsibly/without stepping on any toes. And I don’t buy the argument that scheduled “steals” players from other queues, because players are not commodities to be distributed. The are human people with preferences.

[vale fog]

Thank you!

[torpid siren]

Gave +1 Thanks to @dull crag (current: #27 - 1145)

[last beacon]

If you go into your dentist and ask for a cheeseburger, you are gonna have a bad time

[rotund sail]

Scheduled very much can prevent live queue from being active and takes way momentum

[vale fog]

I have not see it happen on a serious bases, and in cases where it does, you have 20+ players in scheduled playing BOTC. Is that wrong?

Because people are playing what they apparently want to play.

I asked this before: What is it with the holy grail that is the queue if we have people actively playing the game?

As elspeth said it better then me: "And I don’t buy the argument that scheduled “steals” players from other queues, because players are not commodities to be distributed. The are human people with preferences. "

If theres enough people for a full beginner queue, a full pickup queue and a full event scheduled game, OFCOURSE that would be the best world, because that means you have ALL the players playing BOTC!

[magic stream]

Cause why is you running your scheduled more important than a player that has joined a queue running a game

[vale fog]

It's not and i never claimed it is. People claim the other way around tho.

[last beacon]

No people are saying both instances should be subject to the same limits

You are saying they shouldnt

You are literally putting yourself above an ST in pickup

[rotund sail]

The whole point of scheduled is to accumulate players before the game, not during setup. In the 2nd case its an impromptu live game. Last minute joiners are fine but not if you cant get a game running in ~15 mins of the listed time.

[rancid seal]

This probably will sound like a dumb question but why?

[vale fog]

Yeah indeed they are.

[rancid seal]

The rules in pickup are because of how pickup works, why should scheduled be penalised because of the rules in pickup?

[last beacon]

Because then you have players hosting 12 hour sheduled games, stalling out queues in the main server, which makes the server more cliquey, less new player friendly will slowly gut it from the inside out

[vale fog]

How is it cliquey?

[last beacon]

I dont think you are arguing in good faith with anyone who disagrees with you Kayshin, So I dont really want to engage with you

[vale fog]

And it stalls NOTHING. We are going in circles again.

[rancid seal]

Make pickup better then, not scheduled worse

[dull crag]

Right now, the implied rules that a mod disrupted my in progress game with (which aren’t written anywhere) are harsher for scheduled than pickup. I was told I wasn’t allowed to rerack with less than 2 hours til the next game. Even if a game ends day 1, even if I make sure to finish before the next game. That’s not ok

[last beacon]

Yes I do think the stated rules in here should be changed to more accurately reflect the more challenging nature of those kinds of games

[vale fog]

I'm one of the few arguing in good faith, there is just so much opposition from nothing.

[last beacon]

Yes everyone but you is wrong. So smart. So very 6 foot 4 of you

[dull crag]

When I talk about multiple games, it is because I get ~18 people for whalebuffet, turn 3 away, finish a game in a short time, and rerack to include more of those folks. And that’s people in the call on time ready to play

[glossy quail]

#1499157407539138670 message

[rotund sail]

Oh im all for allowing a second game. Dont get me wrong. I think scheduleds should have the freedom for that

[last beacon]

I think sometimes not everyone gets to play when theres an upper cap in a game

I think thats fine?

[vale fog]

Any mod gonna respond to that in the same way they respond to me btw?

[rotund sail]

Ive been saying thoughout the thread a hard 4 hour limit solves most peoples issues. It gives more freedom for scheduled STs getting a re-run and prevents events from dragging for hours more.

3 if people feel its too much

[candid pier]

Imo 2 hours, including a second game if it reracks within the first hour of official start time, but if it's a big complicated script and nobody is after you, people aren't necessarily going to say you can't take 10 minutes to finish up. Alas, common sense rulings like that have too often had to fall by the wayside on the server because people get given an inch and take a mile

[dull crag]

Yeah, but if the demand can be met while not stepping on toes because game 1 was short, why not allow it? I’m asking for a 3-4 hour hard limit without limitation on reracks as long as we are done on time. I’ve never run over 4 hours even with multiple games I think

[vale fog]

No? No mod going to call out what just happened? I say something and refer to people personally and i get called out someone else does it it doesn't?

[last beacon]

Yeah I think 3-4 hours with a rerack stipulation is the ideal endpoint

[last beacon]

I got frustrated by your need to dismiss any point made against you as nothing, apologies

[candid pier]

To be fair Kayshin, I think you overestimate how quickly mods are able to respond to anything if you are looking for a response within 4 minutes unless it's an emergency.

[vale fog]

Apology accepted. Lets continue ❤️

[dull crag]

That would be plenty I think. The big thing for me is that mods should not be enforcing rules that aren’t written down anywhere. And when they do, they should not be disrupting games in public. They should be DMing the ST

[last beacon]

Yeah live game rules have been on the precipice of being updated and codified just around the corner for years

And is the root of a lot of problems

That that hasnt been done

[vale fog]

I have a good suggestions to solve at least some of the issues with scheduled:

• Variable timeslot or option to even plan multiple events: 2-4 hour window, or 2 hour windows where we are able to plan up to 3 events. Within this you do not ever need a rerack rule. They have their timeslot. Within this slot, run as many games as you like. And if a game runs a bit over and there is no next scheduled, that should be fine as long as it doesnt go too hard. You could enforce a fiddler after game runs over 15 min or something.
• Clarity if we are able to run things like our open mic night, or even organising them from a server standpoint (or group of people who love to do these things), option to plan a "full event night" with multiple storytellers. This is basically what we did, circumventing the rules a bit to get a whole night of we play whatever, by planning a few slots after eachother.
• Clarity on Storyteller implementation. With comuppance of Knaves or even switching storytellers in between games if you want to run more games, an event should be a slot reserved for planned game(s). Hence anything the storyteller decides to do within that timeframe is up to them, including switching ST or someone else picking up a game when the first storyteller drops and people like continuing the game for another one.

Obviously these are my ideas for this, but it is still a bit more then a flat adjustment to the window.

[candid pier]

Open Mic "Night" is in theory fine right now, just as separate events with two hours between each one. Like, you schedule a game, then Avan schedules one two hours later as "Open Mic Night part 2" and then Elspeth schedules "Open Mic Night part 3", etc.

[vivid token]

I think it would be good also to more clearly establish how people can recruit for scheduled games to stop unsolicited dms and interruption of ongoing live games / racks of live games

[candid pier]

that was people are alerted to it being a new game and have an opportunity to join naturally, and it still sticks within the two hours

[vale fog]

Yeah thats what we did with the previous one, but by the rules we have to wait for the first event to finish before going on and are only allowed to swap st when the next slot falls

So thats why we need some clarity on that part

[candid pier]

Good opportunity for people to take a bio break, stay hydrated, and people can be sat on a grim ready for roles to be sent at the start time

I remember rocking up to a scheduled.....Axo or Sun, at 59 when it started on the hour, just in time to hear the Ding of roles being sent 😭

[vale fog]

sure but if the first game ends in an hour we cannot rack the second until an hour later and the next st is up. for these events we need a bit more flexibility in when to start the next game hence my ideas for the variable timeslot and what you are allowed to do within it. Its your slot, do whatever you want.

[last beacon]

I have no issue with that kind of large event. I think its even cool, but it should be a once a week at most exception rather than the norm

[vale fog]

Its not the norm at the moment, it was me following up on what avan planned. They didnt realise i did it until i planned it even

[rotund sail]

This is already in the rules doc I think. Some people ping on-server in the event thread which is fine i think?

[candid pier]

It sounds like scheduled rerack rules will be clarified (eventually), so i'm hoping that it will be at least the 40 minutes from queue rules, if not an hour to be a little more generous, but we'll see. I think working within the current system with some more clarity and just taking a little break to chat and refresh yourself is honestly better than complicating rules with variable timeslots

[vale fog]

Sure but then you are still waiting an hour. Scheduled games shouldnt need a rerack timer imho. Maybe then force a 5-10min break instead 😉

And i dont mean variable timeslots btw

[candid pier]

Sometimes, ya just gotta wait the hour, like if you are waiting in the queue to ST, or you just miss a game racking.

[quiet sigil]

This sounds like you are suggesting that if someone would like to join in on the second event and the first event ended early, the second event people would basically miss it because the time moved to earlier.

[candid pier]

Yeah, that would be really unfair

[vale fog]

No, the second event still goes

But its just a continuation

I almost wanna draw this out XD

To show what i mean

[quiet sigil]

so it's really not two events it's one massive event

so you would need to be able to commit to the whole 4h to be able to join

[vale fog]

It is a bit of an edge case anyway but if we can get to a point where the entire event slot is for you to fill as you like it fixes most issues i see with it

[vale fog]

Yeah, because the rules didnt allow us to set up something else instead so we cheated the system

[vivid token]

Pinging signed up people or people who have previously agreed to be pinged for that st is fine, I would like this rule to be more enforced

[candid pier]

I also need to be honest that i'm less keen on the wording of "event". It's a scheduled game, and I'm wary of losing that distinction.

[vale fog]

I see it as an event and not a scheduled game

And i have always seen it as such

That might be my misunderstanding

But maybe if thats the case (which is fine) we can transition into an event like structure instead by just adjusting some rules?

[candid pier]

Cool, but "Scheduled game" is how it is referred to everywhere but #event-listings , I'm guessing because back in the day it included workshops

[vale fog]

We do have workshops btw

There was a new ST workshop recently

[rotund sail]

Are you talking about recruiting at the game time or prior

[vivid token]

Both

[wide sluice]

I'm going to be honest, with how rude people are being to each other in this thread, I'm not entirely sure how productive this discussion is going to be without some form of tangible evidence from either side regarding what the issues are.

[vale fog]

I think we are mostly passed that and getting into the nitty of execution, feeling theres some mods at least open to ideas so hopefully we can get into actual suggestions, which i have opted as well

And some others have

[wide sluice]

I know a few of us are discussing how we can get some form of tangible evidence either way that we can try and present to try and give evidence for the points wither way, as well as seeing where the mod teams stance is before continuing too

[vale fog]

What evidence?

[wide sluice]

I disagree with this, only because it seems like the rudeness stops then continues a few hours later

[calm wing]

i think there's a question of if scheduling is booking a game or booking a timeslot, and if there's already an answer to this pls let me know

[vale fog]

We have people stating things they are seeing as something that needs fixing. What more evidence do we need?

Its not a trial

[wide sluice]

I can't find the message right now, but ashe mentioned trying to get this yesterday, and trying to figure out how we could go about doing this

[vale fog]

I do agree on mod stance, because that is where part of the problem lies. Some mods are opposed to improvement, some are positive to it.

There is no single mod stance and there doesn't have to be. I hope there isn't actually.

Because otherwise you don't get into discussion but into a echo chamber.

[wide sluice]

I feel like I remember this being mentioned in another suggestion thread, where 3 hours being allowed (and as many games that can happen in that time frame) being suggested, but then nothing came from it

[solemn zinc]

i offered to help gather feedback from the community about their stance

[dull crag]

I have several people who consistently play in my games and have asked for DMs. This is allowed in server rules. I have been scolded before for “stealing” players from queue games because people choose not to play in one and come to me instead. That’s bullshit, just because people choose to play in a scheduled game doesn’t mean they were stolen from the queue

[vivid token]

I specifically said people who ask to be dmed is fine? I never tried to insinuating that you were stealing. I am complaining about unsolicited dms and people vocally advertising during live games and interrupting.

[vale fog]

Those should be disallowed by standard practice and not by scheduled games anyway right? Its just not wanting to be unsollicited nor to be in the way of the current active game

And that shouldnt happen indeed. However a ping in game recruiting or DM-ing people you know are possibly up for it should be ok?

[gleaming sapphire]

If it is a prevalent enough problem to complain about, a rule should be made for those who do not have common sense/decency.

[vivid token]

Yes but this thread is about scheduled games and the most often that I have recieved unsolicited dms is from people scheduling games asking me to play. And people walking into live games and recruiting vocally for a currently starting scheduled

I have no problem with lfgscheduled or dming people who have previously stated that they want to play again

[vale fog]

Agree but i don't believe that's an active issue I feel we are running in to much, and if it happens, it should be fairly uncommon. If not, that can get handled through other methods tho.

[rotund sail]

If it happens once, just ask the ST you prefer not being messaged. If it keeps happening open a ticket. I dont mind discouraging it however

[vale fog]

Fair so it happens more then i know. Good to know so i can warn possible ST's in games that might want to do it as well.

So that should hopefully be resolving "that" part of potential issues.

[vivid token]

I mostly brought it up because I couldn't remember if it was a rule or not and wanted to have a discussion that could help with some of the actions that cause people to perceive a "theft" of players

[vivid token]

I would appreciate that thank you

[torpid siren]

Gave +1 Thanks to @vale fog (current: #232 - 300)

[gleaming sapphire]

Just reading this thread as someone from text like “wow, this really is multiple servers in a trench coat” because even the relationship between RSVP (longtext equivalent of scheduled) and queue is different.

Over there, a “sorry, I’m saving a game slot (likely foreign concept for livevoice) for such and such RSVP” or “sorry, I’m saving a slot for such and such queue game” is common and doesn’t come with hard feelings afaict.

Or the sense of “such and such game is stealing players from my game”

[gleaming sapphire]

Because there’s an understanding that players are responsible for managing their own time.

And an understanding that STs don’t go into other games’ channels to recruit.

[solemn zinc]

maybe a "No DMs" or "No soliciting" role or "No manual pings" role. many of us are fine with being DM'd or personally pinged in threads and don't want to have to proactively tell people to reach out to us when they schedule things.

i think implementation of this would be confusing so i'm striking it out. i agree with AP - if you don't want to be DM'd, handle it directly.

[solemn zinc]

i agree with this, i'm sure politely telling someone not to DM you is fine. there are only a few STs who DM people about games.

i'm just not sure that every little inconvenience someone experiences needs to be codified into an operational policy.

it typically doesn't really solve very many issues at the end of the day - sometimes it causes worse issues (policy bloating, role bloating) and should just be handled on a personal basis rather than expecting the system to handle it for you

[solemn zinc]

i think we established above when this was first brought up that vocally recruiting players from other games to fill out a scheduled game should be clearly disallowed per the rules. not sure it's worth rehashing, but later i can put together a list of all the major points we'd like added to the policy for reference

[dapper vortex]

I think scheduled STs should have a little freedom in who they advertise to and how they advertise as long as it is reasonable. I agree it doesn't need to be super strict, as long as it's clear unsolicited dms, spam pings and disrupting other games are not allowed. I think most STs should have a good judgement of who wants to play in their games from who has attended previously or maybe flagged interest to them before, and if they contact those people and they aren't interested they can just take them off their 'list' so to speak. and players can let people know what they are and aren't cool with and always raise concerns in a ticket if someone is repeatedly messaging them after being asked not to

personally when I run beginner friendly games in scheduled I usually message a small handful of people I know would be interested in playing and won't mind being dmd because I know they don't all check event listings frequently and otherwise might not notice the game

although these games do get advertised and run a little differently to other scheduleds so take that with a pinch of salt

[wooden haven]

In general I'm fairly supportive of qol improvements. Where those improvements interact with queue based games I'm certainly in favour of more scrutiny of those ideas. In general I think the changes AP is requesting should be implemented as described.

[vale fog]

#1499157407539138670 message

[candid pier]

Yeah, if we are short in beginner friendly scheduled, I ping any specs that it looks like might be waiting for a game in scheduled chat to not interrupt and nobody has raised an issue

[magic stream]

How does a spec that is waiting for a game look like?

[candid pier]

Like, not deafened and hasn't previously said they're not playing, or obviously following a specific player around

[remote snow]

like they did *?

[candid pier]

It would be cool if people did that more often

[rotund sail]

I dont think people know it exists

[south saddle]

Soooo I could just... Create 12 schedules in a day and set the script to be "whatever the ST sub chooses" - then let whoever is there for the time slot st sub

(This is a horrible idea I should never do)

[solemn zinc]

i think this is a "yes but don't" haha

also we were explicitly told we couldn't do two STs in a scheduled (each doing one game) but when we pointed out that we'd done it before and that we didn't see any rules against it, this thread was the result. lol

[candid pier]

I think if people started taking the piss like that, it would find itself legislated against. I would say "very quickly" but....

[solemn zinc]

that does remind me of something i'd wondered about

if you write a policy that's more restrictive than what we're currently doing (which seems like a given based on mod feedback), i think the mod team will want to prepare for the possibility that people will begin booking double slots.

i'd consider whether you want to avoid this as part of the policy (in which case you should likely increase scheduled time slots) or allow it, and if you allow it, decide how many are allowed

so it sounds like this is what needs to get covered in the policy, hopefully i'm not missing anything;
- what the scheduled event time slot will be - whether you're keeping it 2 hours or increasing it due to something like preventing double bookings.
- how many scheduled games can be played in situations where there is no scheduled immediately after - rerack timers likely fall under this umbrella but based on clear feedback that reracks are too variable and don't follow the same rules as the queues, i genuinely think a rerack timer is a bad idea.
- whether a second ST would be allowed for a second game - it sounds like this is a no, but you should mention it specifically, and you should provide an example of when it might be allowed, such as in a double booked event where it's explicitly mentioned that someone specific will ST the second game. this doesn't seem to violate the spirit of your policy and you will likely have some events where people try to do this due to the increased restrictions.
- whether double bookings are allowed - you can expect these to become more common if you make things more restrictive than they are now.
- rules against game poaching behaviors - especially entering voice to recruit for scheduled games. this was mentioned multiple times as an issue that used to be common. although it's fallen out of the culture, it's still good to explicitly state it's disallowed. however, i recommend giving examples of what is allowed, such as typing in chat, "if any specs want to play, we have a scheduled starting in 5 minutes downstairs" etc

i don't believe i'm missing anything but i'll add to the list if anyone else can think of something. i'd recommend keeping small inconveniences that aren't a server-wide issue out of the policy.

before you enact a policy, please just keep the following in mind: creating an overly-restrictive policy is going to very much impact the culture here, and for many of us this cultural change is worse, which will likely contribute to one of the problems you claim you're trying to avoid - server death.

a lot of emphasis has been put on how the pick-up queues are affected by scheduleds with very little evidence supporting an egregious impact, so i would encourage you to re-examine the exact issues you're trying to solve and try to identify how impactful that issue currently is.

thanks!

[uneven hawk]

That summary was very much needed given how long the thread has become, thank you @solemn zinc

[torpid siren]

Gave +1 Thanks to @solemn zinc (current: #282 - 249)

[solemn zinc]

once again, if the mods need any help checking their written policies for clarity, i am a trained policy writer and researcher with a lot of experience in copy editing policies for publication. no pressure, but feel free to hit me up if you want to take me up on it.

[candid pier]

I will devils advocate slightly and say that we don't want the rules to cover absolutely every potential eventuality, because honestly, the rules be very long as is and people need to try and exercise some common sense. Also, double bookings aren't allowed as per server announcements.

[graceful sorrel]

Im with acaila^

[candid pier]

omg where are you hiding? 😮

[graceful sorrel]

dont look behind you

🤗

[solemn zinc]

i agree with this

but you will need to clarify if double bookings are allowed because that's absolutely going to start happening

it doesn't matter if they are in announcements

they need to be in the policy itself

there is, believe it or not, a way to write policies succinctly and thoroughly. they are not mutually exclusive.

i honestly can't even find where the scheduled guidance currently lives.

[candid pier]

It does matter if they're in announcements, because that's where interim rules clarifications are placed.

[solemn zinc]

this wouldn't be an interim rules clarification. if it's not allowed, explicitly, it should be in the policy itself.

i don't know why you would argue against this.

this is something that is going to come up and people who haven't read through the backlog of server announcements shouldn't have to go try to dig it up in 2 years or whatever just to see it, when it's extremely easy to put literally a single line about it in the policy lol

[candid pier]

I'm not arguing against it being in the rules, I'm simply explaining that the rules don't get updated live, and in between rules drafts, changes are announced in announcements. That's the way things are done on this server. Sure, I'd love promptly updated rules so people don't have to go searching for announcements, but the fact remains that that is where rulings are announced or clarified.
I agree it should be easy to put a single line in a rules document, but alas, that's not something that happens with the way the server is run.

[solemn zinc]

if length is an issue i can only say, get better at writing and organizing content

[solemn zinc]

we are currently discussing an update to the policy. it sucks that y'all don't have one published, and you should work on publishing one. you can put your interim policy in announcements, but it needs to live somewhere permanent and easy to reference.

if you don't have a document for that yet, the mod team should be working on that.

if they are working on that, they should probably establish what kind of timeframe they'd like for publication.

[candid pier]

I'm not sure why you're saying this to me as "you". Like, I'm a minion not a mod. I've done my bit on contributing to the rules revamp, and have spent the last 18 months moaning about the fact that I rushed to do a ton of work on it and then it's been radio silence since then. I'm just a long term server member with institutional memory and no real power trying to explain that things aren't always going to work the ideal way on here.

[tribal shard]

#server-announcements message

[solemn zinc]

the royal "you"

okay yes, letting rules live in an ongoing announcements thread where things get buried is not good.

[candid pier]

I agree

[solemn zinc]

they need to have a permanent home

[candid pier]

The permanent home is the google doc

[solemn zinc]

i found a live voice google doc that discusses in-game behaviors specifically, is that what you're referring to?

or are you referring to a google doc that is currently pending publication and is intended to be the permanent home for the server's policies?

[candid pier]

The links for each type of server games rules are linked to in the #server-rules channel in this post: https://discordapp.com/channels/569683781800296501/572632078965800980/1380698072111255612

[tribal shard]

the mods have already said they are working on updating the rules, give them time

[candid pier]

Unless things have massively changed since my own input, they will continue to be in document form afaik.

[graceful sorrel]

^

[solemn zinc]

i didn't see anything in that document about the scheduled games? am i just completely blind?

okay, i see

[tribal shard]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/140Objl3pLey62vqlw243tYH_vNX1FgXvVTVpRkoDl2Q/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.cnolgnwgtiux

theres bits in this

[solemn zinc]

the scheduled game information should likely be separated from "setting up a game" in its own section

[candid pier]

I know that was fed back in the minion part of the rules revamp (mostly because I did it myself)

[solemn zinc]

okay cool

[candid pier]

but as a non mod, can't comment on what changes have been actioned

[solemn zinc]

so this document is currently being revamped, is what y'all are saying?

[tribal shard]

#1499157407539138670 message

as stated here, the rules are being revamped

[solemn zinc]

so the confusion here rachel

is that this is not a policy or rules document explicitly, even if it is labelled as such

it contains a lot of extraneous information that i would not personally consider an enforceable rule or an enforceable policy

[tribal shard]

I think it is?

[candid pier]

Server improvement ticket # 2992 is the live rules revamp ticket where minions were invited to input via comment function on google docs. We used the comment function to suggest changes, rewordings, clarficiations and reorderings to improve things, then the mods locked the draft and took things back to modchat to approve things.

[solemn zinc]

so when you say "we're updating the rules" and you're not actually clarifying exactly which doc is getting updated

i apologize for wasting your time by asking exactly which document is being referred to ;p

[solemn zinc]

thanks, this helps

[torpid siren]

Gave +1 Thanks to @candid pier (current: #76 - 668)

[candid pier]

I mean, what other doc is there? There's the server rules summary, then a doc for each set of game which is the "rules" for that game type

[tribal shard]

you can ping the mods to ask I suppose

[solemn zinc]

y'all keep referencing another document that we do not have access to

lol

[candid pier]

Some stuff was moved out of rules into the getting started playing and storytelling chats at some point a while ago, to help remove extraneous stuff

[tribal shard]

if you want to know exactly, ask the mods

[solemn zinc]

girl

i just DID

i asked HERE

what are you even on about

[candid pier]

That would be the revamped rules document, which will replace the current google doc when it goes live.

[solemn zinc]

like this shit may be obvious to you because you have behind the scenes information but me asking for clarification on what on god's green earth y'all are even doing with all of these bajillion documents is not a stupid thing to do

[candid pier]

There are two documents. Current live game rules doc - accessible to all and should be read by folks before playing/STing on the server. New live game rules doc - will replace current rules doc when finalised, currently only accessible to mods.

[solemn zinc]

i feel pretty confident that acaila and i were on track to getting it clarified but i appreciate your input

[graceful sorrel]

Lets remain calm! This server is very big and finding certain things is… difficult😅

[candid pier]

Stax, give us the inside goss, what month on the sweepstake should we pick for seeing the new livegame rules? 😉

[tribal shard]

3 days ago this was asked and answered in the minion chat. @sour swallow said 'We are working on it now. We will have more in-depth rules that will hopefully cover every necessary aspect of scheduled games very soon.'

they are very busy sorting lots of things out, but I assure you it is being worked on!

[graceful sorrel]

month? My bets were on 2029 /j

[candid pier]

Dammit you stole my joke

[graceful sorrel]

muahaha

[tribal shard]

It might take some time but they are reading suggestions and working on it all

[graceful sorrel]

These suggestions threads get filled with soooo many messages its hard to keep track of everything

[graceful sorrel]

Ty

[torpid siren]

Gave +1 Thanks to @tribal shard (current: #132 - 483)

[rotund sail]

Dont know how popular it is but a start timer too

[tall loom]

being told off is wild.

[vale fog]

Is there any chance at least for clarification soon? I am currently not planning any scheduled because i do not accidentally want to do anything against the rules and i don't want to plan single game events, so maybe the question for now if it is allowed to plan 2 events in a row?

[uneven hawk]

I don't believe scheduling two events back to back is against the rules (e.g. an event at 8 and an event at 10), but I would await clarification from the mods for that. If you, for instance, schedule events for 8 and 10, and the first event ends at half 9, it might be best to wait until ten to start the next event. (Sorry I can't be more concrete, I just don't want to say I'm 1000% sure something is okay, in case you do it and get in trouble because it turns out to not be allowed. Mods can give more official rulings than minions, but unfortunately they are often quite busy).

[rotund sail]

Yes id like at least a #live-game-announcements on what the current rules even are

[last beacon]

If the rules are genuinely unclear to you in a way you can defend simply continue to do what you are doing as long as its one tick under what you were directly told not to do

If what you were directly told not to do was unclear to you reach out to the moderator who told you and if you recieve no timely reply just continue to do what you are doing

To be paralysed into inaction lets moderation be complacent. I dont think its a deliberate attempt to do that by any means but without incentive things will move slower than with

[uneven hawk]

Yeah I'd say go ahead with your plan of scheduling two events in a row Kayshin, it doesn't break any explicit rules

[vale fog]

Thanks for clarification. That gives me at least a bit more room while rules get updated/checked ❤️

[sour swallow]

We will be making an announcement soon. For now, the current rules state that you must schedule a game 24 hours in advance, and you cannot schedule or rerack within 2 hours of the previous/subsequent games.

[rotund sail]

According to the new announcement there is no fixed time limit to accommodate complex scripts, but still a fixed re-rack timer.

[uneven hawk]

The max duration you can schedule an event for using /create though is three hours

[dapper cargo]

If you use the website you can schedule for any duration. Not sure how easy of a task it is to change the bots settings but I will bring it up.

[uneven hawk]

Interesting, thank you for the info ❤️. It's been so long since I have scheduled an event lol

[torpid siren]

Gave +1 Thanks to @dapper cargo (current: #146 - 442)

[rotund sail]

So to be clear if I make a 3hr event, but the first game runs for 50 mins, I can't keep going?
Getting this from

Scheduled games have no time limit.
and
Scheduled games may be reracked once within the standard rerack timer (40 minutes from the event's start time).

#live-game-announcements message

[magic stream]

I believe so yes

[dapper cargo]

Correct

[wooden haven]

Might I suggest a relaxation for scheduled games specifically set up to cater to a faster format, such as speed tb, riot, doomsayer etc where the intention is running a number of fast games (unless I missed that).

[rocky tundra]

Fair point! I've passed it on.

[frigid sparrow]

The new rules are harsher on small/quick game formats, I agree

[glossy quail]

I agree with suggesting a relaxation, I think for the moment a good stop gap could also just be to make a ticket and ask for a variance for one event

Something like you can trade no rerack timer for having a hard 90min time limit

[shrewd otter]

for me it makes more sense for the scheduled format to just be you book out 2 hours of time, you get to run as many games as you want to within that time but after 2 hours half way into a game or not you fiddle to end. fixes the speed games issues and re rack timer feels off

[uneven hawk]

Only problem with that is that certain homebrews etc might not be able to be ran in two hours, especially when they are being ran for the first time. I agree with everyone here though that some accommodation for faster games like riot etc would be a good idea.

[shrewd otter]

sure then make it 3 hours but i wouldn't push for anymore than that, st's who are running need to be responsible for their time

[uneven hawk]

Yeah the only reason I bring this up is that previously in this thread people who ST certain homebrews regularly said that they can't be ran consistently in two hours. I agree the current limit of three should be enough.

[rancid seal]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the two main arguments for a limit to begin with are 1: STs would be tempted to make scheduleds to avoid the restrictions that come with the queue, 2: it will risk having pickup queue without a game running, right?

[rancid seal]

The thing is, from an outside view it really feels like "scheduled would be better than pickup so we need to make it worse" and "i want people to mostly play this way" and while i know it's two strawmans, i struggle to not see it this way
1: Find ways to make pickup better, or just don't care if scheduled is better, if people get to enjoy something then it's great for them and don't try to make them have a worse time
2: i struggle to see how it's relevant, and why it would be that much of a problem. Many people playing scheduled wouldn't join the pickup anyway, and this rule also prevents the alternative gamemodes (homebrew, lorics, speed games, whalebuffet or anything you could see in scheduled but not in queue) from playing more than once every now and then while they are the one for which this argument is especially not relevant
If they are playing on this server and not elsewhere, there has to be a reason and don't try to make them consider leaving to elsewhere. Instead you had at least twice here people here telling them that if they aren't happy they can make their own server (more politely, but same meaning)

And i haven't really seen people answering these arguments

[wooden haven]

What are you trying to rehash here? The server has chosen that scheduled and pickup games are substantially different offerings. It doesn't matter that you want to engage in more debate around it, they are and it is.