#Feedback for Longtext Rules Rewrite

223 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

wintry kindle
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Hi Longtexties
If you haven't noticed, our Rules is alright, but just a tad old.
Like, 2 years old.
It has manual noms for crying out loud.

The first draft of the Longtext Rewrite has been completed and we're seeding out the PDF to

  1. force you to comment on this post to gain traffic and attention
  2. ease of reply/back and forth because we're all on Discord anyway

What this Rewrite has changed from the old one

  • Updating of practices
  • Cutting out excessive words (the current Rules doc has a lot of long paragraphs)
  • Cleaner formatting (With the Content Page, (Sub-)Headings and what I hope is a better logical flow to the document)

2 major feedback types

Content - The actual meat of the Rules and Information. Some parts are not universal, some may need clearer sentences/descriptions/instructions.
Formatting - Grammar, Spelling, Punctuation, whatever

Before you feedback, bear in mind that the Rules and Info document serves as a basic resource that can be used as reference. This means it covers the bare necessities of what folks should know of the format. If there's something that is missing, consider if it may be better as a supplementary resource (Which can be done in a separate document and maybe listed in the "Additional Longtext Resources" section in future, if/when the supplementary resource is made)

If you'd like to feedback on something, to make it easier to reference which section you're talking about:

  • Reference the page number (minimally)
  • Reference the (sub-)heading
  • State your feedback/suggestion for change

Feedback best to be openly sent here, for anyone to chime in and other Text Minions/Mods to note (they also have edit perms to the actual google doc)
If anyone is uncomfy with being perceived though, my DMs are open!

The most updated Draft's PDF will always be pinned.
There is also a "last updated date" line at the very end of the doc.

Any and all feedback will be open for discussion.
Thanks everybody!

wintry kindle
manic karma
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whoa a pdf

solar talon
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.

wintry kindle
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i already spotted one thing to add

  • Adding mention of #kibitz-game-?? into General Overview > Channels
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thanks rsvp kibitz for having a different name format :|

solar spruce
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doing a scan so things are subjective, feel free to change or keep whatever you think works best; apologies for the text dump!

  • Longtext Game Rule 5 (Players are expected to commit to the duration of a Longtext game...) sounds a bit clunky, like the hour is seperate to the game. Maybe something like "Players are expected to commit an hour of visible and active participation each day during the whole duration of a Longtext game." [pg. 3]

  • rule 7 is slightly subjective, i think theres a bit of async jank with outing new info in the middle of the night + roles like Cere that make it unfavorable, but whether that impacts the game enough to be a rule or not is debatable. most players dont out info at night from what ive seen but thats often been on the premise of not informing Demon kills, so i dont think its ever been hard ruled (and even slightly subjective advice like that probably doesnt fit in the rules section? so up to you if you think its worth making a hard rule) [pg. 3]

  • both /whisper and /w are given as ways to notate the start of a whisper, i think both are acceptable but just making sure this is intended [pg. 7]

  • example of ending a whisper doesnt use a slash? [pg. 8]

  • "Whisper Cost" sounds a bit clunky, i think just saying "Whisper" is fine? [pg. 8]

  • Points 2 and 3 seem to be related and about presubmission; perhaps they could be merged? [pg. 9]

  • worth noting that an RSVP game can't be made while you have an ST role, similar to queueing [pg. 10]

  • the PreSignups command is missing a quotation mark at the end of GameName [pg. 11]

  • in Recruitment, consider mentioning the point about RSVP games last. The point about LFGText pings and channel recruitment time is more related, while the RSVP rules are more sperate. [pg. 12]

  • point 2b isn't really an action/rule, more of an explanation for 2a. i think it could just be merged with it? [pg. 12]

  • Point 4 about day end contains a sentence fragment, maybe make the period a comma? [pg. 14]
    _ _

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  • could reword point 6 under Once A Game Ends to make it more clear that archiving will happen at some point and not immediately; a new player might think that they can only run DropGrimoire after a Mod has archived the game [pg. 15]

  • the third example of negative behavior for Social Conflict seems to be good advice instead? intent is still clear so if its for space issue i think thats fine [pg. 18]

  • under Gamethrowing's positive examples, potentially worth noting that Travelling could also be an option if you don't want to play as a certain on-script character [pg. 19]

  • could note more clearly in the negative examples for Isolating and Targeting Players that the bracketed text is an example with something like eg., similar to other examples in the document [pg. 20]

thanks to all the contributors on this btw, it looks pretty comprehensive and like a lot of care was put into it

wintry kindle
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game Rule 5

  • wording was infact clunky, adapting your suggestion

game Rule 7

  • your comment aligns with what the rule is saying - new info obtained during Night X, being outed during Night X, is not allowed in any game format as far as im aware (which is what Rule 7 is enforcing). new info obtained prior to Night X, being outed during Night X, is allowed, but is personal preference to not inform Demon kills (which is not what Rule 7 is enforcing).

playing, both /whisper and /w given as valid ways to announce whisper
ending whisper without a slash

  • editing so the content aligns with the example (mentioning /w is valid as well, adding the slash to the example, although "end bob" was an example of "something to [/end]'s effect")

playing, trav/dead whispers, wording of "whisper cost" vs "whisper"

  • will see if anyone else thinks it's clearer to frame it as a cost or to just say "spend a whisper", because i can see new players conflating whisper (the verb), Whispers (the mechanic) and Whispers (the limit per day)

playing, pts 2 and 3 about presubmission

  • i presume this is about the day/night phase subsubheading, yeah i can see it being merged

st'ing, RSVP can't be made whilst queued/holding onto ST

  • Wording adjusted to "You may only be in one ST queue OR have an RSVP game at any given time, and cannot do either whilst holding onto any ST role."

missing quotation

  • there were in fact missing two quotation marks, fixed

st'ing, adjusting order of recruitment points

  • makes sense

st'ing, pre-game setup, pt 2b

  • anything to shorten this 26 page behemoth marginally 🙏 (this does not change the length of the doc and i am half joking, but i did merge it)

st'ing, day end, pt 4

  • period to comma done, long sentence but alas this is technically the grammatically correct one
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st'ing, game end, pt 6

  • ended up moving the "mods will archive it off server" into a point 8, after pt 7 on "run dropgrim"

table of nono, social conflict, negative example

  • yeah it's just good advice. uh livevoice just had it there, i couldnt be bothered to move it xd

table of nono, gamethrowing, positive example

  • Requesting a trav is there already, will change "dont wish to be evil, or the demon" into a general "if you dont wish to play as a certain on-script character"

table of nono, isolation/targetting, negative example

  • have added the "eg." indicator
upper mist
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Conveniently I recently read and took notes on the current longtext rules, since I'm new to the format haha. The rewrite you have did a pretty good job of explaining things that (to me) were unclear in the current version! Anyway here's some feedback/criticism, specifically about the playing in games section. Feel free to ignore any of this.

Page 6 - Kibitz

  • I think somewhere in this section you should define what Kibitz is. The name kibitz isn't (in my opinion) self explanatory to not merit an in-section definition. (ngl as a new player to text it took me a sec to figure out what the hell kibitz means and it's not defined anywhere, that I can find, in this doc)

Page 7 - Pre-game setup/N1 (5)

  • Grammar: "Acknowledge your role once they have been sent out and submit any Night Actions promptly" - sentence grammar is weird. Either role should be plural or text should read "it has" rather than "they have"

Page 8 - Whispers

  • How this description of whispers is phrased implies that all these types of whispers are used in all games. IDK if I'm explaining this clearly. I think how this reads rn implies that, for example, evil letters are a thing every game.
    1. For Neighbor whispers. Grammar/Phrasing "You are restricted to only being able to send a maximum number of words, per day to each neighbor". Something about how the phrase "maximum number of words" reads odd to me. Should probably say something like "limited number of words" instead.
  • (positive: I like how the sync and async whispers are explained. That whole situation was very confusing to me initially)

(TBH there's a few other spots where the wording of stuff is odd or kinda klunky, but I don't have time to look through that fully rn)

wintry kindle
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"Feel free to ignore any of this" chat i wouldnt be asking for feedback otherwise 😭 /lh

upper mist
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shhhhh the text people scare me i gotta qualify stuff for my own sanity

wintry kindle
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Pg6 Kib

  • didnt think anyone would care why it's called Kib, but yeah sure, this is a good shout

Pg7 Playing, Pre-game setup

  • The sentence grammar checks out? Expanding it fully, it'd read "Acknowledge your role (singular, the player only has their one) once [all roles] have been sent out [by the ST]."

Pg8, Playing, Whispers

  • Yeeeeah explaining and touching on all types of whispers that could (possibly) be used whilst in the middle of explaining how to play felt like an awkward spot just in general. (Providing some insight on my thoughts whilst writing)
  • Would having a point under the less common Whisper types saying "This is less commonly allowed in games." be helpful?
  • For Neighbour Whispers, yeah will change it to "Limited", i dunno why I wrote "Maximum" tbch when rulesets usually say Limited already
upper mist
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re the kib thing: basically i’m saying that it isnt clear that it’s a spectator channel

wintry kindle
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even under the Spectator heading?

upper mist
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i think it’s obvious it’s a spectator something???? but it’s not intuitive

wintry kindle
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anyway i threw in a "for spectating" in here, does this work?

image.png
upper mist
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yeah that works

wintry kindle
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yippee

upper mist
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with the whisper thing i agree with what you wrote just now

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like it’s good to explain them all in the rules, but infrequent stuff should prob be noted as such

wintry kindle
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bet

urban pollen
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The kibitz section seems to be using kibitz to refer at different times to spectators, or to the channel itself, and I think that's confusing. Especially the very first point (even with the correction), I'm not sure it would help me understand what kib is if I didn't already know. I think a sentence explaining what Kib is shouldn't include the word kib in the explanation, right now it kinda reads like "Kibitz is a channel to spectate, where the Kibitz can spectate"

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Also wow apparently criticizing anything brings me incredible stress

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(I'm still planning on actually reading the full thing when I have a chance)

wintry kindle
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will say
im only now realising kibitz is a verb

upper mist
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yes those changes make that section so much more understandable imo

inland umbra
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skimmed the document, this feels more like a reference document than a rules doc tbh?

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and i kinda feel like it should be named to that end

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to reflect that status? idk words are hard you get my meaning

urban pollen
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Finally finished reading through the document
Apologies if I repeat something that was already pointed out, corrected, or removed from your current version
Also, in addition to what I pointed out, I agree with bayta that there are a few spots with odd or clunky wording, but that's a bit more subjective and it's technically correct anyways, so it's fine enough as it is.
Also also feel free to ignore any of this 🙂
(Also also also I reached the non nitro character limit so I have to send this preamble separately...)
-# also also also also also also also also also also also also

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Page 2, Channels, # text-game-general, did you mean discuss anything Longtext, not Livetext?
Also do substitution pings happen in text game general? Genuine question, I don't pay too much attention.

Page 6, Playing, second paragraph, should probably read "A list of commands [..] can be found" instead of "List of commands [...] can be found"

Page 7, To join a game step 5, might be worth including the option to ping the ST, since some games do manual signups instead of using carat, especially for RSVP

Page 8, 6b, is that comma useful? (in "number of words, per day")
7a, should probably say "at any point in time", rather than "at any point in the time"

Page 9, 9c, unimportant, but something bothers me about "open until Night starts(verb), as opposed to Day end(noun)"

Page 10, Storytelling, after the rule about having to ST base 3 first, should maybe also have the rule about having to ST regular before experimental

Page 13, During the nights 1, "Ping your players to notify them of night start, anyone who got executed in the day and whether they died" is an awkward sentence. I assume it's supposed to be read as a list of 3 things you should notify your players of, but I didn't read it that way.

Page 14, During the Day 7, missing s to "Once the time [...] ends"
End of day 5, I think the proper phrasing is as it is completed rather than as they are completed, but I could be completely wrong on this one

Page 15, Finding a substitute 1, you can probably say "you the storyteller themself", but I'm not super sure of rules on this, and I've read themselves/themself so often trying to figure it out just now that my brain is mush

Page 16, second sentence, I assume you meant "If your game does not meet both criteria"
Travellers 4, start of day rather than ttart of day

Page 19, Game throwing, column 3, "If you don't wish to be evil[...], request to be a traveller"; note that a traveller can still be evil, so this should probably be rephrased

river kettle
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ima be honest, without having read the document and only seeing parts of messages in here, i dont think anyone will read 19+ pages of rules.

urban pollen
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It’s 26 😊

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But it’s also useful info and how things are run, not just rules, and organized in sections, so it’s not bad if you only read the sections that are relevant for what you want to do

wintry kindle
twilit sluice
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ya and if someone is new to longtext then they can just be asked to read the most important parts for playing

wintry kindle
wintry kindle
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Same as how #text-rules-and-info is currently named

inland umbra
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yeah but text rules and info is like, actually 50/50ish rules and info

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this is like info but with a little bit of rules mixed in

wintry kindle
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Heck the current rules doc is titled "text game rules"

inland umbra
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current rules doc needs a rename too imo

wintry kindle
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and is also 26 pages of info and 2 pages rules

inland umbra
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feels more like a text game how-to than a rules and info

wintry kindle
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the question i throw is then this: is there going to be much a point separating out the two - rules and the how-tos

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Mmm just reread the messages

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You never suggested to separate out the two, apologies

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Could rename it to like, Longtext Info and Rules but thats awkward

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and ultimately a trivial matter, but if people think a rename is best to reflect the doc being more a resource than a ruleset, then sure

inland umbra
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i dont think rules should be in the title at all tbh, we already have a rules channel for rules quick reference, in depth reference doc with all everything should be referred to as just the info doc or something

wintry kindle
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willllll throw that to the longtext team

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I really should spend more than 2s reading - the doc still keeps the rules inside it?

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Mmmmmm

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Yeah fair enough

inland umbra
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yeah im not saying we should take rules out of the doc

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i mean looking at it again i do think the rules in the rules channel need an update XD but that's beside the point

wintry kindle
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Everything in this server needs a refresh 🙂‍↕️

inland umbra
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has anyone mentioned the lumping of the whisper tracking thread in with whispers/neighbors yet? cause i think thats mildly confusing given that i mentally categorize the whisper tracking thread as something entirely different from actual whispers

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(on page 4)

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to me whisper tracking is more in the realm of public actions/public claims/bulletin board

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so i feel like the description of it should be separated from the description of whispers in general

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also if whisper tracking is lumped in with public claims/actions you can just like, general disclaimer that not all STs use those in that section instead, since unlike the other types of threads which everyone uses the presence of these are relatively up in the air

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would recommend changing the heading for "Storyteller Thread" to just "ST Thread" and explaining the acronym in the text rather than the other way around as it currently is, as i dont think anyone actually types out storyteller in the context of ST threads, so you'd want the commonly used alias as the higher visibility one

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would suggest flipping the top two bullets on page 12 (the rules on pinging rsvp and the rules on not reaching min players for queued games) because rn it could be minorly misleading that rsvp games are also allowed a 7 day recruitment period when theyre not

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or, honestly, just moving rsvp pre-game stuff into its own section because the rsvp system is so different that i think interspersing that info in among the queue info just isnt super helpful

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this at the top of page 13 is currently false (i just tested it), ST by itself is insufficient iirc it needs to be "ST Thread" with that exact capitalization

image.png
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im p sure when i ran fae amnes even "ST thread" didnt work lmao

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at the very least the sendtothreads command doesn't detect just ST

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this could be a carat bug tho idk. but its false right now

hasty veldt
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I think send to threads has sent to livetext st threads when back alleys livetexts have happened which says something about this

inland umbra
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i just created a dummy thread called "ST test" in r4 and ran sendtothreads and it didnt send to "ST test" /shrug

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looks like the ST thread thing is also in the travellers info section on page 16

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also that section says "ensuring the thread name is Private and
has “ST” in it for Carat to Detect. " when i assume you actually meant ensuring the thread is private and the name contains ST

wintry kindle
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-# the decision to seed this out without proofreading the ST'ing section specifically is catching up to me 😔

spark pier
coarse pumice
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This one is definitely an improvement

spark pier
wintry kindle
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Note to self
Include >movedown x in ST'ing, Queuing

wintry kindle
# urban pollen Page 2, Channels, # text-game-general, did you mean discuss anything Longtext, n...

ok i can actually get to this now
Pg2 Channels

  • fixed, forgot to adapt to longtext when copying from the livetext rewrite

Pg 6

  • fixed

pg 7

  • added

pg8

  • 6b, no that comma is not useful. it is now dead
  • 7a, fixed

pg9

  • 9c, i cannot unsee, so i've also changed it to "open until the start of Night, as opposed to the end of Day"

pg10

  • i realise now, the current rules doc has NO mention that the 1st game must be base3. so yay, more reason for a rewrite to realign with #text-rules-and-info message
  • also, a base3 game is a regular game, so by virtue of forcing a player's first game to be base3, that means they're free to run whatever, and that the wording is still correct at the moment "Your first has to be base 3, after which you may run any script you wish"
  • so like idk why #text-rules-and-info has them both separate
  • as far as im aware anyway, may a longtext mod correct me if im wrong

Pg13

  • added numbering which hopefully helps (notify them of 1) night starting, 2) anyone who got executed in the day and 3) whether they died (for nights after the first))

Pg14

  • during day, pt 7, fixed grammar
  • end of day, pt 5, now im wondering if it should be "announce the vote tall__ies__ of each nomination as they are completed" or "announce the vote tally of each nomination as it is completed" because the latter sounds wrong. but yes either way there is subject-verb disagreement

Pg15

  • both are grammatically correct technically
  • in the context of the point, i'm opting to remove "themselves" entirely so it just reads "or in rare cases, you the storyteller", idk why i even included that word to begin with

Pg16

  • fixed, yes i meant does not

Pg19

  • has since been changed to a more general "if you dont wish to play as a certain on-script character" earlier 🙂‍↕️
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re: all of @inland umbra's feedback

Whisper Tracking separated from Whispers/NWs

  • Donezos

Storyteller to ST

  • Preference difference perhaps, because I see it as using the correct full term as the heading, and then going "we just abbreviate it as ST"
  • Notably, prior to this point in the document, Storyteller is always written out in full. This is intentional.
  • Or well, this should be the case - it was when I was writing the Livetext rewrite but I'm gonna have to double check for this doc.
  • The intention is that even someone entirely new to BOTC can follow along

Splitting ST Queue and RSVP rather than intertwine them

  • Yeah sure, I thought intertwining them would be better, with the overarching "this is how you queue for games"
  • But I get the point on how the RSVP system is functionally different enough that intertwining them could be more confusing, so will be splitting them (a la the current rules doc)

ST Thread

  • fixed
wintry kindle
# inland umbra would suggest flipping the top two bullets on page 12 (the rules on pinging rsvp...

Actually, RE: Splitting ST Queue and RSVPs
the bullet points have already been flipped, following an earlier suggestion which pointed this out

besides this mixup under Recruitment (which I can make even clearer by adding "From the ST Queue" for example), I don't think intertwining them will be too confusing?

"Here's how to queue for a game, these are the two methods. After you're queued and you finally get a game channel, here's what you do, for the two methods"

image.png
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and in the midst of this, I realise I didnt even make any mention of Claiming Grimoires so I'll have to add that in too

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it reads as this now

image.png
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if it's still clunky, then sure we can separate out Text ST Queue and RSVP

or maybe we make a table 👀

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chat idk if anyone read the intro paragraphs, but like
is the intro representative enough of the format
i dont love it but i dont hate it
(for reference, Livetext's intro paragraphs are attached below)

image.png
wintry kindle
viral adder
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i would reword "Days last 24 hours typically, allowing folks to dedicate small chunks of time throughout their day to playing, as opposed to a single 2 hour session" as "Days typically last 24 hours, and full games can last for up to 2 weeks, allowing players to dedicate small chunks of time throughout the day to playing."

wintry kindle
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shit my folks slipped through the cracks

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aight bet done

viral adder
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if it helps it's the only "folks" in the whole document lol

wintry kindle
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i wrote that intro ages ago

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😭

viral adder
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at page 9 i think this should be either "nominations phases usually last" or "the nominations phase usually lasts"

image.png
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or typically

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purely formatting: i would make the carat commands bold to make them pop out, or highlight them in blue maybe

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page 4 this sentence reads a little clunky, maybe "enough players have joined signups to fullfill the st's desired player count" or smth

image.png
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page 5 i dont think this needs to be two bullet points

image.png
viral adder
frigid minnow
wintry kindle
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more intriguingly
i have done both the livetext and longtext rewrites and this is literally the first mention of using colour as a suggestion damn

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oh i made the livetext rewrite feedback a private thread for some reason.

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that

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explains a lot

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time to work on two at once

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Baseline qn for the rewrite, I posed when seeding out the Livetext rewrite and should pose again here, as something to keep in mind whilst looking through the document:

Do the changes/additions have been enough improvement/value-add to warrant replacing the current ruleset that is in place in #text-rules-and-info?

wintry kindle
upper mist
river kettle
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add a rule in there that says "Sia is not always evil. He just plays weird"

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🙏

radiant crystal
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Ok, I've read through everything while taking notes, and I genuinely apologize that I prioritize "clarity" over "brevity" by like...a lot. Sorry this is kind of long

My general mindset reading through this looking for greater clarity was basically "if I were anxiously joining this server and trying not to do things Wrong™, what information would be most useful to me," so that's sort of the justification for much of the clarity/addition comments I have here

I mention this a few times in explicit places, but one thing I was a bit concerned about throughout was the lack of delineation between rules that are common/generally accepted vs things that are like rules rules. A ton of the rulings are highly subjective and totally up to ST discretion, tho sprinkling in some "generally"s and "typically"s probably solve 90% of my issues with that tho

Finally I found a ton of wording things that could be modified or reworded to be more clear (going through law school makes one very attuned to the significant difference slight wording changes can have on meaning) but I figured that would be pretty excessive for just a list of "thoughts I had on first read through" and would be better for a comment-by-comment system. I did note a few that I thought were more important to reword there anyhow

Anyway yeah text wall incoming:

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  1. This is so stupid and probably unnecessary, but you open by mentioning "BOTC" without defining what that acronym means (probably unnecessary for anyone with a 1% chance of opening this doc)
  2. The ToC and link system is really sleek and nice. Just wanted to say I think it rules
  3. Feel free to disregard, but I think an example dissection of #??-text-game (p2) could be nice. Like "example, here's 5-tb-night-one" or smth. The system makes sense but it's not obvious enough that it might warrant an example full template
  4. Rule 7 (p3) I actually agree with Chum here: I think this is largely true, but not so universally true to warrant being a "this is always a rule" in the text doc. Even just a "generally speaking," somewhere in there would probably appease me 🙂‍↕️ On that note, I actually do think rule 8's "don't copy/paste" is a significantly more universal rule to be maintained (rule 8 is fine, I say this more in respect to it being less subjective than 7 imo)
  5. Inspired by #2 on p4, but I'm not sure exactly how much BotC knowledge is assumed of readers. I mention this since "the bag" is used a few times without a definition, and even people familiar with BotC might not understand what it means in this context
  6. #7 (p4) probably need an "or" in place of the "/", as-is is a bit confusing
  7. If this is intended to be an almanac/reference material, I do think that JSON should absolutely be defined/explained somewhere (only used at the top of p8 for now)
  8. Re:threads (p5), probably worth a mention that STs can kinda do whatever/however they want, including Bulletin Boards, Cult Votes, or whatever game-specific things need it. I don't think you need a separate section for these, just a quick "btw STs sometimes be goofy" at the beginning or end
  9. Final Backpacker bullet (p6) has sort of an implied "without permission" that could be explicit, if you want (not important)
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  1. The kibitz section, offering "unwelcome" advice is sort of a joke imo (like it's funny that it's named kibitz). That being said, my reading of the section of Kibitz makes it seem like advice is by default NOT welcome, which I'm not sure is what you want to convey
  2. Pre-Game #1 (p7) probably reword "else," it sounds like "pick a seat or you'll be placed randomly" rather than delineating two separate methods for seats
  3. P7: might be worth saying something to the effect of sync whispers being called regular/normal whispers, just because that's what they're called the majority of the time people refer to them
  4. 5(c) (p8) is much more ST-specific than I think is implied here (I've def seen STs allow async whispers to pop in and out of sync whispers at will)
  5. P9: a nomination/vote example would probably be helpful. Not explicitly necessary but helpful
  6. Probably also unnecessary, but Carat is written as "defense" rather than "defence" lmao (maybe mention either as acceptable)
  7. P11: I'll probably stop mentioning this, but throwing in an example everytime you mention a Carat command would be helpful I think. If I'm doing Carat commands I'm not familiar with, I absolutely copy other examples and switch out the details moreso than follow Carat's example it gives under the >help command
  8. #6 on p13: good to mention STs have control over Kibitz, but it might be nice to mentioned what is common/expected/assumed if you wish
  9. During the Night #4, p14: it's pretty common for most info/night stuff to be given right at the end of night to avoid timing meta, probably nice to mention this (which is a bit more clear than "wait an extra bit of time")
  10. End of Day #1 (p15) could be worth mentioning that "nominations are processed in the order they are made" also generally includes things like Virgin nominations not being processed until all of the votes on the preceding nominations are counted (as is, this isn't clear)
#
  1. Once a game ends #1 (p15) "acknowledge the Losing Team as well:" I'm genuinely not sure what you mean by this. Is this a "remember they lost so be respectful to their feelings" or something? Either way it isn't clear
  2. Once a game ends (p15): might be nice to mention something to the effect of "24 to 48 hours is pretty a typical amount of time between grim reveal and archiving"
  3. Re-racking (p16) should probably mention that players basically need to re-consent to be a part of the 2nd game
  4. Fiddler (p17) might be worth mentioning that STs often put on word count restrictions in addition to time restrictions
  5. Game throwing (p19) maybe subjective, but I think "intentionally attempting to cause your team to lose" is quite different from "ending the game early" and could probably be mentioned alongside the latter
  6. P23: Extremely subjective, I may be way off base here: "Emotional Abuse" might be a more changed term than you want for the context; I don't have a great suggestion to replace it other than "Emotional Bleed" which is used later so uhh oops
  7. Phase Two (p25) there are uhh a lot more details on this process than I think are known. Unless this is from a mod or something, I am under the impression that "Minions/CESTs will help somehow" is all we have in terms of concrete "what will happen" for Phase Two
  8. P26: I got a mention 🥹 I genuinely did not know my contributions were worth that lmao
#

(Please ignore any/all comments you think are irrelevant or dumb, I frequently have bad opinions that should be ignored 🙂‍↕️)

inland umbra
# wintry kindle re: all of <@148908129185169409>'s feedback Whisper Tracking separated from Whi...

Re: storyteller vs ST, the thing is that we literally only ever call it the ST thread, even carat only recognizes that term, so it's sort of transcended abbreviation status to be it's own term at this point
It's not that you should abbreviate storyteller to ST elsewhere it's that "ST thread" is a whole unit of meaning in and of itself and "storyteller thread" only has meaning because the individual terms have meaning, if that makes sense

urban pollen
# wintry kindle ok i can actually get to this now Pg2 Channels - fixed, forgot to adapt to longt...

For the base game to experimental game point, if a base 3 game counts as a regular game, then I guess it would be the current text-rules-and-info channel that is clunky and you're good. I learned about the rule like a week ago when Sia finished STing his first b3 game and wanted to ST flesh and bone, and James asked Sia if he had also STd a regular game since he considers F&B experimental, and linked to the rules channel.
Don't know how it's actually enforced, but I didn't want the rules channel and rules doc to say different things.

wintry kindle
#

<@&997139548620456068> Gonna ask for a clarification on a "Regular game" here

#

I'm regretting making a whole ping for this

#

Sorry folks 🙏

young briar
#

Great points and questions. Let me talk to the other text mods

inland umbra
#

wait what is base not considered regular anymore for st entry purposes? i thought that was just a holdover from when we didnt have base games

tardy herald
#

Hey, heres my list of things I noticed take as little or as many of my suggestions as you like!

Overall it was great and I especially love the table of contents!

  1. Pg 9 (Voting) 1&3: Vote and private vote commands are incorrect, they need player names added e.g. >vote [GameNumber] [Names] “vote” and >privatevote [GameNumber] [Name / userID] “privatevote” or something to that effect (p.s. >privatevote can’t take multiple name arguments due to reasons so it might be worth either explicitly stating that or implying it with the examples)
  2. Pg 10 (After the game): Add a point about voting for on server archive (OSA), seems to be missed from this section (and just forgotten about overall), might be worth linking the post about this?
  3. Pg 12 (Top): might be worth having a point about if you plan to do manual sign ups to make min player count 0 in the command?
  4. Pg 12 (Getting a Game Channel/Recruitment / RSVP): Might be worth stating this happens at 5pm UTC as that seems to be common question?
  5. Pg 13 (Game Setup): >CaratSTSetup is not a command that exists lol, I assume there is one with !CaratSTSetup, could point them to >helpme if you want the carat command
  6. Pg15 / 16 No mention of OSA again?
  7. (I see OSA is talked about at the bottom now, not going to remove previous points, I personally feel this should be more pushed but up to you!)
  8. Pg26 mention about @zenith dawnDev if there is a carat based issue in your game (not to make myself get pinged more lol)?
wintry kindle
#

i shall get back to this likeeeee

#

tomorrow

#

a day off from work

wintry kindle
#

the procrastination is kicking in again ruh roh

#

but like

#

i see the feedback and i hear it

#

-# i just got other games and shows to catch up on, having a mini burnout from server stuff

wintry kindle
#

chat, do we wanna like

#

hm

#

Use of LFGText to ping for a substitute on N1 before anything with the game has really started

Do we wanna shift towards discouragement of that? Given that the game hasn't really started and it'd be easier to just rack for a lower player count (unless it is exactly 7 dropping to 6)

frigid minnow
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[omen voice] yes

wintry kindle
#

vati i already hear your voice whenever someone does this

#

maybe i should be asking this in #text-game-general because this is not very visible

wintry kindle
#

(copium)

whole egret
frigid minnow
#

/tickets open

radiant crystal
#

@wintry kindle What program did you use to make the PDF table of contents? I'm writing something similar to this and I want to take the link system out of your possession and use it as my own 🙂‍↕️

wintry kindle
#

Or painfully hyperlink every (sub)heading to a manual content page :P

radiant crystal
brittle streamBOT
#

Gave +1 Thanks to @wintry kindle (current: #67 - 687)

wintry kindle
daring wolf
#

I think someone else mentioned this above, but my largest gripe over the current rules, for essentially every part of the server, but especially for text, is that it's filled with things that are mostly not rules

#

Like fundamentally rules should be highly visible, very direct and clear, easily referred to, and easily remembered

#

I do like the information in this doc quite a lot, I just wish it wasn't in the doc that's named "Long text Rules (& info)"

#

Because I don't think the issue with the rules of this server is that the docs are out of date, it's that absolutely no one who isn't already in the know of the rules uses them as much as they would simple, and clearly defined rules

#

it shouldn't take a massive editing undertaking to update the base rules of live, the server, or text, it should be like... editing one message and then doing an everyone ping

#

basically: this doc is fantastic, split it in two, the rules that should be posted directly in a discord message, and then an actual informational document

daring wolf
wintry kindle
#

But it has been noted, the shared opinion of both you and Starlit on the separation between Rules and Info

wintry kindle
frigid minnow
wintry kindle
#

vati i KNOW and also, wrong ruleset being referred to

frigid minnow
#

you see the relationship I'm alluding to though right

wintry kindle
#

Yes 😔

#

Chat yall can just edit the doc and cut it back to whatever Clarke has already in #text-rules-and-info whenever yall do the final mod approval schtuff

#

-# can i afford a mini jab in that the current rules doc has literal paragraphs for each rule, some with additional subpoints, and spans 2 pages

daring wolf
frigid minnow
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actually, is it just 'all'? I keep forgetting Clarke is surprisingly new in the grand scheme of things

zinc scaffold
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i am quite young in life as well yes

#

tell everyone

twilit sluice
#

@wintry kindle if you have never run a longtext game before are you allowed to be a co-st for non b3 game if the other person has run a bunch of longtext games and is more experienced?

#

feel like I've seen ppl be co-STs for more advanced games

#

and it's not mentioned in this doc

wintry kindle
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Im no rules arbitor so idk but on instinct I'd say both yes and no

#

Because theres obvious precedent in the real-time formats where people "Co-ST" and just shadow

twilit sluice
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like jinx's 1st ST game was a co-ST with popel and it some al-had script

wintry kindle
#

But in Longtext, Kibitz is effectively sufficient shadowing and to Co-ST would just be direct access to ST Threads and Whispers

#

Well hm ig that applies for the real-time formats as well kinda

#

Anyway in terms of known precedents, yes it should be allowed I think?

hasty veldt
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I feel like the answer would be (as with all co-st questions) dependent on just what roles the co-st is taking on within the game

wintry kindle
#

Realest

frigid minnow
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(this is in that 'grey area, but a shade of grey indistinguishable from black' where it hasn't been formally polled but everyone goes "yeah no")

#

We probably need to formally poll it and see if the answer works out as something else but the context where people were doing this frequently was very specific and time-limited in a way that makes it unclear if this is a serious future issue

wintry kindle
#

Note

#

A new ST

  • must run a Base3 script for their 1st time, be it solo or with a co-ST
  • cannot run anything else (even as a co-ST) until they have ran a Base3 script solo
    #text-announcements message
ruby echo
#

.

wintry kindle
#

note

#

actlyl nvm

#

updating a loric bank in the doc is bad

wintry kindle
#

note to self
literally anything that's being updated in text announcements
chat i have had no motivation to update the rewrite at all lately my bad

wintry kindle
#

just gonna put a pin in jarhed's feedback, where i last stopped updating anything

frigid minnow
wintry kindle
#

okay so entirely pausing the rewrite, lovely news

#

that or i entirely pass it off to the Mods to work on :3

cursive comet
wintry kindle
#

fruck

cursive comet
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😎

wintry kindle
#

chances of applying for mod have now gone to 0

#

thank you @cursive comet

brittle streamBOT
#

Gave +1 Thanks to @cursive comet (current: #268 - 260)

cursive comet
#

💀

#

Unintended consequence of my actionsawkward

#

Dw Norm, I'll send the application for you, I got you

tardy sphinx
# wintry kindle ~~okay so entirely pausing the rewrite, lovely news~~

fwiw i think this makes sense to some degree. if you (or i A_PensiveWobble ) get motivation before that time then fabulous. better mod doc updating process with rule tweaks is very on my radar for the future so it's not entirely a reason to pause progress, tho fine justification if the progress is naturally paused until another burst of energy on it.

wintry kindle
# radiant crystal 1. This is so stupid and probably unnecessary, but you open by mentioning "BOTC"...

(Anything I dont mention, I have adjusted and dont think the adjustment really needs acknowledgement)

Bullet4

  • Yeah I've cut down on the wordiness of the Rules and gotten rid of this "Dont speak of night actions in the action" rule entirely

Bullet7

  • Mentioned briefly that a JSON is "a text file containing the state of the game" but idk if thats sufficient nor like, any clearer xd

Bullet8

  • Added a "Possible Additional Threads" (Non-exhaustive) which mentions bulletin boards, offtopic, cults, and a catchup thread for subs

Bullet9

  • I'm confused what you mean by "Do not mention anything from the player’s ST Thread or Whispers to anyone." having an implied "without permission"? Folks arent supposed to leak game matters outside of the game, and backpackers already have a geenral default of "minimal interference, if any" to begin with. Maybe I just haven't encountered anything of the sort, where a backpacker has been given permission to talk about their player's whispers elsewhere?
wintry kindle
# radiant crystal 10. The kibitz section, offering "unwelcome" advice is sort of a joke imo (like ...

Bullet10

  • I would like to think giving advice unsolicited/unrequested is the default? But regardless giving the dictionary definition isn't very useful so I've removed this line entirely

Bullet13

  • Also removed this line entirely

Bullet16 and everything about examples

  • Donesies

Bullet17

  • Common stuff STs share has been added

Bullet18

  • Info being given at the end of night is common yes. That is also not what this line was trying to address. Mid-night actions that have an tangible effect, needing the buffer time was the point (eg. a GMT+ Pit-Hag who submits during what would be a time when most other players are sleeping, would need that buffer). Players whose actions/information can be resolved in just about any mix of orders at the end of night was not the point being addressed, but I have added a new line on it
wintry kindle
# radiant crystal 20. Once a game ends #1 (p15) "acknowledge the Losing Team as well:" I'm genuine...

Bullet20

  • Holdover from the old text rules, does rewording it to "Acknowledge the losing team's efforts" make more sense?

Bullet22

  • Donesies, also mentioned people can ping for their rerack but im not entirely sure if thats true? Those with access to the doc, can just remove and correct it

Bullet24

  • I'll probably leave the definition of Gamethrowing to the Mods awkward but this was what was used in the current iteration of the Livevoice rules which is where i stole the table from

Bullet25

  • Heard on the iffyness on whether "Emotional Abuse" is of the right intensity/tone and something brought up when the livetext rewrite was done as well. Once again, I'll leave this for the Mods to figure out because of the sensitivity of word choice

Bullet26

  • This is quite literally the copy paste of the OSA process in #text-rules-and-info awkward so like 🤷
wintry kindle
#

Changelog:

  • Wtv the hell has gone on in announcements
  • Those feedback adjustments
wintry kindle
radiant crystal
brittle streamBOT
#

Gave +1 Thanks to @wintry kindle (current: #53 - 814)

radiant crystal
#

7 - A mention of JSONs being used for clocktower.live would be handy for me if I were an anxious noob who didn't want to ask questions 🙂‍↕️
9 - My point was that "never mention any of it to anyone ever" just seemed a bit absolute. I think if you've got permission to share your friend's role with a different friend that's like perfectly fine, which is why I was reading in an implicit "without permission" to the statement
10 - I might be crazy for thinking the opposite, so do what your heart tells you 💫 the definition + the final bullet made it sound like kibitzers are not to comment unless given explicit permission, and I find throwing in comments or ideas is usually default accepted unless the ST requests otherwise. This is an explanation of my pov and not intended to create an obligation in the writer 🙂‍↕️ I do think defining kibitz is fine since it's a super weird/uncommon word lol
18 - I might be completely misunderstanding in that case. For role changes (Pit-Hag) or getting mechanical information (you've been Preached / made Ceremad) then I think standard practice is still send that out at the end of the night. Were you instead referring to a situation like being Pit-Hagged, followed by needing to make a different decision in the night?
20 - Yay :) I just didn't understand what the original was saying lol
22 - ...I'm actually not sure about the rules for rerack pinging. I'm fairly certain it's treated like a sub, where you just kinda ping like once and run with what you have? But I've also seen "rereack recruiting" I'm pretty sure, I have no citation either way 😅
26 - clueless ➡️😏 I genuinely forgot that was there LOL (probably bc it's never happened), further reason to ignore everything I say 🙂‍↕️

wintry kindle