anime world

[compact stirrup]

Deku, Rimuru, Monika - I like these!

Yumeko - I don't understand this ability. How does it play out? Can you just ask who the demon is? What does the coin toss decide?

Levi - I don't get it. Let's say he convinces 3 people to "join the scouts" during the day. That night, no matter what, he learns 3. Unless Senku chooses him I guess.

Naruto, Natsu, Subaru, Chika, Lelouch - Abilities that publicly confirm themselves, that the evil team cannot bluff, are extremely powerful for the good team.

Kyubey, Bill Cypher - If these pick a good player, then they help the good team, a lot.

Muzan - What do you envision it looks like for a player to be mad they are evil? I can't imagine this going any way other than "I'm evil." "Oh, I guess the Muzan chose you, cool."

[safe prism]

So let’s go one by one . Yumeko can ask yes or no questions(may have forgot to specify that . and example would be like is person a the demon. Then call heads

[fathom vigil]

Beedrill also doesn’t do anything? Players nominate, get poisoned, and then are unpoisoned almost immediately after

[safe prism]

Coin flip then is flipped and based on the flip info is given

[safe prism]

So would u suggest till dawn

[compact stirrup]

The Yumeko learns "yes" or "no" with probability 50% each? But then the Yumeko didn't learn anything at all.

[safe prism]

Levi I would like suggestions for as I can’t come up with something concrete

[fathom vigil]

Each night, choose 2 players: if they nominate tomorrow, they are poisoned that night and the following day.

in general you do really want to work on the wording of these characters

[safe prism]

I mean yumeko is supposed to be a gambling artistry role

[fathom vigil]

but how is yumeko meant to use it's information?

[safe prism]

Botc is a social game comparing with other info works or asking the same thing twig e

[fathom vigil]

okay but

it's info is literally random if it's true or not

[safe prism]

Yes

That’s the idea

[fathom vigil]

what is yumeko gaining by asking it's question

[compact stirrup]

The Yumeko can get its information without ever visiting the Storyteller by flipping a coin themselves

[fathom vigil]

any player can get it's information by flipping a coin

[compact stirrup]

If you want the info to be useful, you'd need to weight it, like "Each day, ask the Storyteller a yes/no question. The Storyteller lies to you with 1/3 probability."

[fathom vigil]

I don't even know if it would be useful even then

since you still have no way of knowing how much of your info is reliable or not

something like once per game learn false info would be more usable

[safe prism]

So you would change to each day ask the story teller a yes or no question. They will lie once within the game

[compact stirrup]

"they lie at most once", but yeah, I like that

[fathom vigil]

Each day, you may privately ask the Storyteller a yes/no question. Once per game, they answer falsely.

I would severely recommend looking at how official characters are worded

[safe prism]

Wordings can always be fixed concepts are the main things I want to get down rn

[fathom vigil]

you'll find it hard to get across concepts if you don't understand the basics of wording

also, just to make sure a specific reason for a change is clear

the original yumeko could ask any question

this is bad because the only good question is "who is the demon"

which is why limiting it to just answering yes/no is important

[safe prism]

Anyways yumeko, beedrill have been fixed with wording and concept

In terms of outsiders I think the best one to remove would be ayanakoji to make a more bluffable ones for evil team

Any thoughts on that

[fathom vigil]

Chika is also just not an outsider

[safe prism]

I’ve had many conversations on this and since both teams could take advantage of the chikas wish the better spot is outsider

[fathom vigil]

how does Chika work?

because it sounds like it's just a good player that has an extra vote

[safe prism]

The first time they vote and extra vote is tallied on for that vote

[fathom vigil]

so it's just a good player that has an extra vote once per day

this just just a townsfolk, and a fairly strong one at that

[safe prism]

At the end of the vote

[fathom vigil]

it's still public confirmation!

[safe prism]

What if I swapped her with senku and made senku able to drunk the person it targets instead of senku himself

[fathom vigil]

I feel like that still wouldn't really hurt good that much?

Ayanakoji also is very unlikely to actually hurt good

[safe prism]

Target an information role they become drunk even if you are trying to prevent them from being drunk/poisoned

[fathom vigil]

then just don't

hell you can just act like a poisoner, try to drunk the demon

[safe prism]

True but you can’t target the same person as last night so

[fathom vigil]

but that's still not really an outsider

you'll just make your choices to minimize damage

and not really hurt good at all

[safe prism]

What about madoka then

[fathom vigil]

right now I'm not really sure what madoka is trying to do

it should really be a day consult and not a night consult though

[safe prism]

Info role with the risk of turning evil

[fathom vigil]

madoka doesn't turn evil

[safe prism]

Thematically that’s how it would work

I’m treating kyubeys content offers as being a magical girl as a way of corruption

[fathom vigil]

corruption?

what does that mean

[safe prism]

It’s not a game concept it’s more from the show

But to summarize

If she is target by evil she becomes drunk

At 3 times she gives in and turns evil

[fathom vigil]

I will note

you currently do not say that she turns evil

[safe prism]

I would assume that becoming an out of play minion would mean evil in this context

[fathom vigil]

it does not

you need to say that they become an evil minion

on a related note, it is genuinely very unbalanced for a game to have more than one extra evil player

it's entirely possible, for example, for kyubei to just turn an entire game evil

[safe prism]

Kyubey has a thing that states only one player can turn evil from this ability

[fathom vigil]

the script doesn't say anything like that

[safe prism]

Cuz it’s on the second page

[fathom vigil]

second page?

and also that should really just be on the ability

[safe prism]

I also don’t have the outsider counts for people

Does that mean i need to specify that

[fathom vigil]

outsider counts?

that's standardized

[obtuse beacon]

Yukiteru is just High Priestess but it guaranteed learns a good player every night, which is extremely powerful

[safe prism]

High priestess is powerfull in general

[fathom vigil]

yes, and this is much stronger

[safe prism]

He’s supposed to be a flavored one

[fathom vigil]

also many would disagree on HP

[obtuse beacon]

Monika is strictly a penalty by the way, it’s just a basic Demon but an added loss condition

[fathom vigil]

basic demon but also a good player secretly gains the poli ability

[obtuse beacon]

High Priestess is kept in check by the fact it can learn good players

[obtuse beacon]

And if that player dies, evil immediately loses

[fathom vigil]

pretty much yeah

[obtuse beacon]

So a Lleech host + Politician, but without any of the protection or misinfo of Lleech

[safe prism]

Plenty miss info and target changing

[fathom vigil]

but also evil needs to protect 2 players instead of 1

[obtuse beacon]

Also Levi has literally no ability? He learns how many are good, but if any are evil then he’s poisoned. So he just always learns 0 no matter who joins

[safe prism]

My play group is a experienced enough that they should be able to do that and that was one of the best recieved ones

[safe prism]

I’m working on Levi right now trying to get it down

[obtuse beacon]

It doesn’t matter if they’re experienced, it’s just objectively weaker than a basic Demon

[fathom vigil]

there's an idea here, but this is just a demon that is mostly downside

admittedly, it's also entirely possible for Tanya to just never get a chance to kill

so it's hardly the worst one here

[obtuse beacon]

Having a downside in a Demon is fine, but it needs an even greater upside to counter balance it. Shabaloth revives players, but it also kills twice per night. This has a huge loss condition, and effectively no upside

[safe prism]

I get that it’s weaker however, I did have a stronger minion that I had to change

That balanced it out for the most part

[obtuse beacon]

Tanya can completely lose the “nominators lose their mark” thing. This is still an average of 1 kill per night, it doesn’t need a drawback

[obtuse beacon]

That is not a way to balance an actively negative character

[fathom vigil]

especially if other demons aren't that much weaker

Yuno doesn't really have a very useful ability, but at least has no downside

[obtuse beacon]

A character (except Outsiders) should help their team. If a character is harming their team just for existing, that’s a huge problem, you can’t just add a super strong character to balance it

[safe prism]

Realistically, for yuno if she can figure out who the high priestess role is, she can start targeting the better roles

[fathom vigil]

I can't comment on Muzan because the ability is so long that the ability doesn't fit on the page, so I don't know it. the madness just doesn't work though

[obtuse beacon]

Yeah Yuno is just a basic Demon but at least it doesn’t have a penalty

[obtuse beacon]

Information for the evil team is incredibly weak. There’s a reason why Spy and Widow see the entire Grimoire

[fathom vigil]

which isn't all that useful. it's not bad, it's just kinda mediocre. and very easy for the HP to abuse into useless info

[obtuse beacon]

Learning a single role per night is almost useless tbh

[fathom vigil]

given that it's also always a specific player

you just learn a single role, basically

the HP can just manipulate your info every day

[obtuse beacon]

Yeah if it was learning the role of a chosen player or a player the ST thinks you should know then maybe it’s useful, but in this case it’s just a random role and you don’t even necessarily know who

[fathom vigil]

it's not even random, which is my point

it's a player's character, chosen for you to learn by a good player

who has every reason to want you to not learn useful info

[compact stirrup]

Clarification for Monika: the Beloved wins only with the evil team, right?

As opposed to the Beloved winning no matter what happens

[safe prism]

yes I fixed it so being beloved turns you evil

[fathom vigil]

yeah, I do think you should probably not have 3 ways to turn evil

[safe prism]

unless u can come up with a downside to rejecting an offer its how it will stay

[fathom vigil]

I mean, the issue is

that's not a downside

it's entirely upside for the player rejecting the offer

either they remain good and get a super strong ability from evil

or they intentionally try to turn evil

[safe prism]

hm

[fathom vigil]

I also don't really see why Madoka also has the ability to turn evil?

[safe prism]

thematic

gives into temptation

[fathom vigil]

but why

it's already an artist with extra downside

[safe prism]

the goal of this is for the themes

[fathom vigil]

then stick to a single theme

[safe prism]

not everything has to perfect in terms of why things do what

[fathom vigil]

Madoka has 2 pretty much entirely unrelated abilities

[safe prism]

kyubey now poisons

meh

[fathom vigil]

Bill Cipher also really shouldn't have outsider mod on it

it's both entirely unrelated to the ability and also by a significant margin the loudest evil ability on the script

just add Sentinel to the script

[safe prism]

nah

chaos is needed

[fathom vigil]

what?

[safe prism]

nvm

refrence not gotton

[fathom vigil]

regardless, for outsider modification to be effective, it needs to be hidden from good

and when bill cipher currently is going to be very obvious if it's in play or not, that doesn't work

[safe prism]

will it be

your forgetting that there is special drunk type role on top of a recluse type role. Ayankoji also prob will like to stay silent as well

[fathom vigil]

why

also how does that make bill cipher less loud

[safe prism]

It only becomes loud if they accept the deal

if they reject it they get scared that they might be poisoned

[fathom vigil]

okay but. why wouldn't they accept it

getting a guaranteed sober/healthy alignment check is amazing

[safe prism]

cuz they would die its that simple

[fathom vigil]

dying is well worth it

[safe prism]

your worried over nothing

[fathom vigil]

also, if you die

[safe prism]

other minions have louder abilies

[fathom vigil]

you also confirm it's bill cipher

[safe prism]

there can be both at the same time

its not like they are mutally exclusive

[fathom vigil]

no, but there's also the other issue

why does bill cipher have outsider mod?

the ability has nothing to do with outsiders

[safe prism]

sigh

Im not going to explain why a thematic right choice is wrong or doesnt make sense

[fathom vigil]

look, I'm trying to work with you

but like I said before

[safe prism]

have you seen the show

[fathom vigil]

yes

[safe prism]

then you should get it

[fathom vigil]

wanting to have a thematic ability is fine

but it should be a coherent ability still

if you want a bill cipher that deals with outsiders, that can work

[safe prism]

the ability works on top of making things more chaotis in itself

my outsiders add choas

[fathom vigil]

not. really

[safe prism]

choosing new targets

removing votes

and drunking people is not chaotic

im scared to see what you think is chaos

[fathom vigil]

lelouch confirming itself isn't chaotic

ayanakoji being able to redirect abilities in the way of it's choosing isn't chaotic

[safe prism]

ayanakoji isnt told what it is

it could be a kill

it could be info

all that maters is its redirictd

[fathom vigil]

but that's not chaos, because it knows exactly where it's being redirected to

[safe prism]

yes he knows

but others dont

they dont know who targeted him

or why info that they think might confirm or deny him is reading as something else\

it doesnt matter if he nominates all it maters if he votes and the first time at that

[fathom vigil]

?

[fathom vigil]

but this isn't chaos. this is solvable

it's more likely to mess up evil than good

hell, as written, you can even just choose yourself and do nothing

not that you should, you should try to redirect evil abilities to the demon

realistically this could be a townsfolk

[fathom vigil]

also, for the record, the answer is wizard, and always has been

[safe prism]

my play group hates wizzard due to the last 5 wizzard wishes making the game take at least an extra hour to 2

[fathom vigil]

yeah that scans

(I'm not much a fan of wizard either)

though, tbh

you could probably make bill work as a variant of wizard a lot better than it's current ability

I just don't especially feel like the current "deals" work out very well, given how incredibly strong learning player's alignment is

like, for bill, learning a player's alignment is very directly worth a death, that's the entire point of Doomsayer

[safe prism]

well in any case I submitted it to our main story teller for feedback before testing so