A review of who is in the mod/minion team and rules surrounding new players should happen

[honest coral]

As long as the serious topics do not get forgotten

[boreal kindle]

It was @simple tree for the record 🙂

[high storm]

David’s cool, we played Clocktower together

[idle lodge]

I'd back this!

[high storm]

😎

[formal crater]

I’ve never 😶

[sand musk]

yeah u had a similar point of public discussion so i thought elspeth was referencing it mb

[quiet jetty]

Great example of not publically calling someone out.

[covert wasp]

#utkuformod whos with me

[north crest]

Try playing a game with them

[boreal kindle]

Sorry @simple tree . Should've let people put in the effor to scroll up to find who sent the message they were referring to

[fresh jackal]

So quick bites:

1. [N] tag part of the og

• split on whether the N tag is symptomatic of neglecting...

2. the right of new players to request trouble brewing/base 3

• split off into https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1485771973270179992, a general discussion about retaining new players

3. Server activity rates dying off in some time zones
4. Minions/mods need to be held accountable

• People in general need to be held accountable

[honest coral]

I'll call out cedric for hiding he's a good ST like a coward

[quiet jetty]

Lazy

[leaden pilot]

give kinksy a break, he doesn't scream at me every game 🙂

[honest coral]

Slander

[boreal kindle]

Yeah. My point was not about people asking for to use correct pronouns. I don't call that "calling someone out". I call that a request.

[fresh jackal]

Would you mind defining what you define calling someone out as? I think there may be a communication barrier here.

[keen salmon]

I will say, and I clarified this with belgem in DMs, that I think there was a miscommunication of what belgem actually meant, and what a few of us thought he meant

To be entirely fair

[fresh jackal]

nailed it

[quartz mason]

Just as a note for why people engagement, at least from what I know, there's now more open spaces to play clocktower in. When I started I only found the unofficial. Now there's a lot more prominent and les prominent content creators with public links to a server or have a post in different forums.

The official app also a space people have as an entry point nowadays.

I think we have seen that specific call outs of people have been regularly deleted in this thread? And the concern has already been made clear previously and we should stop talking about it. (In relation to call outs of behaviour generally that belgem has been bringing up)

[quartz mason]

Also relatively common for a game in the official app to be run by someone with a server sending an invite there after

[boreal kindle]

What I mean by calling people out in this context is making posts in server suggestions when someone does something wrong that implies them (directly or indirectly). I think that's bad.

[jaunty sierra]

Soooo, you are callign out everyone who has made a suggestion thread?

[boreal kindle]

And for the record. I'm not saying that this post is doing exactly that. But I do think it's on the line.

[fresh jackal]

I've been lowkey labeling a decent number of the recent suggestions as "This general suggestion is very much about specific incident"

^Suggestion posts

[boreal kindle]

That's what I mean

[fresh jackal]

For clarity: suggestion posts as in the major forum posts, so yeah

[quartz mason]

You cannot name the incident my empath suggestion was about you weren't there 🔪 (actually its about a pattern of behaviour in this server which is also what this thread is about)

[feral flare]

There is a balance here though... As a lot of suggestions come from specific events happening and then people finding out the server isn't equipped to deal with them. So I agree that it happens but also can see why that would tend to happen even in the ideal world

[covert wasp]

Its usually that a specific incident sparks the need for them to bring the topic up, not that the topic was irrelevant before

[hot wharf]

To those who ask “What can I do better to help the pronouns issue”

First, make sure you know what people’s pronouns in the game are. Make it a habit to regularly use them as you would for other people. If you are someone who is inexperienced with actively using pronouns when you usually don’t think about it, it’s okay, it takes practice.

When someone else is referred to with a wrong pronoun, IMO it is best to:

• Immediately jump in and correct it. “Hannah is evil, he shouldn’t have”- “Hannah uses They or Ae pronouns”.- “My apologies, Hannah is evil, I think they shouldn’t have voted on….”

It is not the persons who is being misgendered a duty to correct it, it is on everyone as a community. If it happens in a private chat, correct it, if the ST does it, correct it.

If you are corrected on your pronoun use, simply apologize, restate the statement with correct pronoun usage, and move on. It is not needed to make a big deal of it in the moment. Mistakes happen.

There is more, I won’t share more here, perhaps in a separate suggestion thread on this topic, but most of this is actually really easy for people to do. It is such a massive boon when I do not have to do the work of defending my identity and others are standing up for me automatically

[plush terrace]

absolutely agree

[feral flare]

To highlight something Hannah said here. Saying "Hannah uses They or Ae pronous" is different to "You misgendered Hannah don't do that". Not referring to the person that spoke and just stating the fact will defuse a situation and less likely to cause an issue and be productive.

[fair wasp]

I'd be interested in seeing if a spinoff thread could help with any fresh suggestions.

You can even just say "let's check we are using correct pronouns" and that usually works if you want to make it even milder

[river sonnet]

Also having a dedicated thread would feel like the server sees this as a bigger issue:) i like the idea

[hot wharf]

Please do. I’ll be honest the last thing I’d like to put mental energy into is dealing with pronouns issue on this server… again. This has been such an uphill battle and me screaming into the void is not going to be good for me

[quartz vapor]

Alright who wants to do it

If someone does not claim it I will create it

[fresh jackal]

One two three

[fair wasp]

I remember the Big Pronouns Announcement and the horrific shit in general channel that followed. Still, I know that was something you spearheaded, and I think it has stuck and while things aren't perfect on the server, I do think things are overall better when it comes to pronouns than they were before that intervention.

Effectively, Hannah is great

[hot wharf]

I’d suggest trying not to make it milder. It should be something that causes pause. And should very clearly demonstrate what the issue is.

I understand many are timid, but this is very important and it’s needed for people to get past their uncomfortability. Something is better than nothing, ofc, but it’s very important it’s something people learn from in the moment

[fresh jackal]

How does this look?

Counter the Bystander Effect: pronoun usage and accountability

[high storm]

Making suggestion threads is cringe

[fair wasp]

I like the title

[keen salmon]

I've personally found that people who do use incorrect pronouns may not even realise (or in some cases not care) that you are referring to them if you use more general statements like this. Directly saying "this user's pronouns are (insert pronouns)" is usually more effective, because it holds people more responsible in the moment

[fresh jackal]

Taking that as a clear

[small gulch]

i think this is a really important point!

i ran a small server where people raised issues about recent incidents and asked them to be addressed as patterns. i also have a prior history in policy-making for platforms and i know that both users and creators on those platforms will do the same thing and ask for policies to be created in response to isolated incidents.

i think this is bc it's a reasonable assumption that behaviors that negatively impact others but are either tolerated or flying under the radar of penalty will become part of the culture of a place and these naturally become patterns.

there needs to be a way to facilitate public discussion of incidents that we can reasonably assume are cultural issues or at risk of becoming cultural issues, because otherwise we rely only on moderator teams to have a system for cataloging patterns in their tickets, and with all respect to the moderators, i don't think this is reasonable for most volunteer teams. even if we could assume they have the same values, we can't assume they have the time or insight into how to track the frequency of patterns of behavior

[fair wasp]

Also fair. I've usually found it effective which is why I offered it up as a suggestion, but I hear what both of you are saying.

[plush terrace]

i think verbally reminding people what pronouns they should be using is def helpful. just reminding people to check pronouns sometimes doesn't help bc people hate reading sjndke

[feral flare]

(Especially in voice)

[fair wasp]

Agree and also this sounds fascinating

[fair wasp]

I quite like a text reminder in case of future ticket necessity. I wonder who pointed out that little server hack....

[feral flare]

Oh I am a massive fan about text reminders for the reasons of ticketing, but for in the moment I think it's ineffective

Imo best thing you can do when stuff is going wrong is just narrate the game in text

I have a GIF I post when town is getting rowdy and heated and because I post it every time I can reference it in tickets to show that I definitely believed it was happening in teh moment

[jaunty sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/everyone-breathe-lets-all-breathe-nwabudike-bergstein-baron-vaughn-grace-and-frankie-gif-17555665

[fresh jackal]

#1486408195931897939

[high storm]

What the heck is going on? Why is suggestions finally blowing up with useful discussion

This thread has started a renaissance

[fair wasp]

All hail @civic trellis ! Bringer of the server renaissance!

[feral flare]

Give it 2 hours and this thread could be back in the apocalypse 😂

[high storm]

Posting a cynical outlook is cringe

[deft heath]

This thread is more swingy than

uh

[high storm]

The Vizier!

[deft heath]

i dont have enough botc knowledge to name a swingy script

Maybe more swingy than the Cult Leader

[high storm]

Ogre

Literally any alignment swapper

[deft heath]

Ok but they flip once

And call it a day

Likewise for BH and Mez

[fair wasp]

Oh I don't think we are out of threadpocalypse yet, but the fact stuff is getting talked about gives me hope. Now we just need it to translate to action

[feral flare]

I've never seen a general swing as much as when I was the ceremad good twin who started blatantly breaking madness as I believed the heretic claim...

[leaden pilot]

that's why we have server moderators :))

[quiet jetty]

N1 neutral
N2 evil is winning
N3 good is winning

[fair wasp]

Goon is right there

[feral flare]

You pointed it out. Now you have to get drunk

[fair wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/nina-nesbitt-sarahmcfadyen-gif-22454057

[olive swift]

I personally can't wait to see the droves of new players, will really mix things up I think

[stray egret]

Okay, I need to say something. I have been hiding a part of my identity for so long, and I am tired of hiding. I... don't like Iron Bru. There, I've said it. It tastes like a mix of toothpaste and rust...
-# Acaila please don't block me and Lucas please don't ban me lol 😭

[fair wasp]

...... I'm really questioning what the Heck your toothpaste tastes of

Like bubblegum and rust sure

But toothpaste?!

Wtf utku

Oh no wait that was Unity

Oops

Sorry Utku

[primal sapphire]

Poor poor utku catching strays for no reason

[plush terrace]

damn smh utku

[stray egret]

Yes, ban utku, L take 😂

/j

[void linden]

unfortunately i did not get to try irn bru on my trip to the uk

[fair wasp]

You're missing out!

[void linden]

i tried marmite and that was okay

also greggs sausage roll

[sleek gull]

why is there 1000 messages of discussion on an obviously true point

anyways i think we should remove the ticket system altogether and give every player the power to permaban people

[leaden pilot]

im banning you first

[small gulch]

it does have a metallic aftertaste to it yeah. not sure where the toothpaste thing is coming from though, i also want to know what toothpaste you've been using. it has a high ethyl vanillin content as well as some citrus-related components and i'm wondering if you're sensitive to the phenolic compounds in vanillin

[stray egret]

Riot game but dead players get banned 😭

[quartz vapor]

that is it

[void linden]

server suggestion to have a channel where we talk about uk-native food

[high storm]

the B E A N S channel

[exotic plover]

I for one welcome the new hunger games approach to the server

[high comet]

Emm4mod

[exotic plover]

I would be a fantastic president snow

[north crest]

I said this last night and she didnt want it then lol

[north crest]

Your more of a doctor Gaul tbh

[keen salmon]

Who is Katniss?

[quartz vapor]

you

[keen salmon]

https://tenor.com/view/hunger-games-sacrifice-salute-tribute-katniss-everdeen-gif-16687787

[simple tree]

Hey I'm awake now and have some red numbers. Should I read them?

[exotic plover]

take that back 🤣

[keen salmon]

You were accused of being a nice person

[simple tree]

Colour me shook. How could anyone see through my grumpy old man persona I've so carefully crafted?

[boreal kindle]

We discussed so much here it broke Discord

[lyric oxide]

1000 messages hooray

[proven spruce]

I haven't like

Read all of this

Because I can't

I do want to say a few things: I've submitted tickets and no one's gotten back to me over a month

And from what I'm hearing, I guess we don't have any real solutions to that so I wouldn't be surprised people want to take things publically since their issues haven't been heard by the mods who are supposed to hear it

So yeah like if I'm gonna submit something and no one's going to respond, I don't know what why we're expecting people to submit tickets instead of discussing it publically in a thread where people will listen to them

Uhh, let's see, I don't play live voice anymore because of being actively being talked over and stuff, and as a new player, even with arcanic's help it was a bad experience for me personally

Things that I think would have been helpful: The sts taking more time to ask if I understood something instead of talking over me, maybe asking if I had any questions, along with explaining mechanics and all

I kind of wish sts would check in with new players more often tbh but I have seen some great sts in live voice who did that and they were very cool

Also, I've seen a lot of misgendering in live voice as well

And the thing is, I've seen so many arguments in live voice spiral out of control and escalate to name calling that it makes me afraid to correct someone who misgenders someone else

That is off topic though, possibly, I just saw it being brought up

[idle lodge]

It's not off-topic, it is something that's being discussed in a different thread as well under server suggestions

[cold gust]

It's almost like this is EXACTLY why I raised a grievance and stepped down as a minion around a year or so ago and haven't been active since, unfortunately nothing was going to be done so I couldn't be seen to support it as a minion.

[fair wasp]

omg it's NAT!

(also @cold gust change your brackets in your name to a different sort, new rule while you were away ❤️ )

[mild torrent]

Completely agree. We were very concerned with how the new rule would settle into the server based on some of the initial pushback and, frankly, visceral responses from a select few. I have to say, from what I’ve seen, people have really stood behind this new rule fully.

[cold gust]

Debated where to put this and moved it back here.

---

Personal view it's fairly simple

If you get punished with game bans or time out, you aren't suitable as a mod or minion.

It is my belief that getting game bans or time outs are not easy or minor indiscretions.

Easy 🤷‍♂️

[simple tree]

Rules are rules imo. Follow em. Don't like em, get them changed or move on.

Interestingly, Its not a rule that I, or anyone, call out any form of behaviour that is poor form and/or against the rules. In fact its expected that I as a player don't call it out and put it in a ticket. The storyteller has some responsibilities, and a process, but even then, less so a call out or public rebuke.

As a statement to the collective: I know that you think that [your thing] should be exempt and people should be called out because you believe calling out [your thing] will improve the server culture for [people that care about your thing]. This is probably true! But as a rule-follower I'd appreciate if you got the rules changed first so that I too can blast peeps that don't follow the rules. Especially mods, I love blasting the mods when they don't follow the rules.

[graceful crystal]

Correcting people who misgender others is human decency, not a rules thing

[stray egret]

As someone who joined after you left, seeing reading some of the things you have wrote about exclusionary cliques 2/3 years ago, and seeing how relevant it still is and how things have not changed, is very depressing, I have to be honest

[formal crater]

I do wanna say something about the cliques though. I don’t think I’m in a clique, I have many friend groups and I have like 4 friends from this server that I’d rather not lose. I think it’s okay to have friend groups or groups you wanna play with. I feel like that’s normal cos there’s just some people that you’d enjoy playing with more.

I think it is fine as long as you don’t ONLY speak to them in a game. To be honest, I try not to have first chats with my friends anymore and I wait for everyone to go off first then ask whoever is remaining - I think that’s me trying to be as inclusive as I can be, but of course, I can do more if people shared their strategies. I feel like that’s something people can try. If not, I just ask a new player these days.

Nowadays, I get sheeped by new players more than my friends, it’s heartbreaking 🤣

I’ve had my friends saying “Moon, you’re washed, they are not good”

My point is I don’t ask to chat anymore, because of my personality and nature, I stay there and wait to be asked.

I think I’m pretty approachable, no?

[stray egret]

No, Taylor Swift fans are scary 😂 /j

[formal crater]

https://tenor.com/view/taylor-swift-new-heights-taylor-new-heights-tayvis-new-heights-taylor-swift-thumbs-up-gif-16295456190353457739

[stray egret]

At the end of the day though, friend groups are not exclusionary to people outside the group, cliques are. The main thing is we are not exclusionary towards people, explicitly or implicitly.

[formal crater]

Honestly, I can’t do the after game talk these days with my friends cos too many people join the VC, sometimes, my brain gets hyper aware that there’s too many people and I shift down a VC. But people follow and me Cri! I’m not trying to start a clique I swear 😭

It’s a me problem, I get anxious when there’s too many people and worried I might say something stupid or unkind

[halcyon lintel]

You could never Moon ❤️

https://tenor.com/view/i-love-you-love-you-hug-kiss-gif-11644994527097850323

[formal crater]

@hallow vine gonna get jealous, hun

[halcyon lintel]

Trust Navii gets hers too!!

[stray egret]

Anxiety is shit, I'm sorry you have to go through that. I feel you on VC convos with lots of people though, they can be a lot. Especially in post game debriefs where everyone is coming in with a lot of energy and wants to talk about their perspective

[formal crater]

That is why I have my friend groups, where I can be inherently dumb and not be held accountable 😭 I don't just play botc with them for sure, I play other games with them and off server.

[simple tree]

Hey like I said, you're probably not wrong! I'm sitting here with 2 bans and a couple of warnings having already done a decent job at convincing people I'm a not a decent person and I'm thinking 'I quite like this place and the folks around here and I'm gonna try my darn-tootinus to not break any more rules'. So if yall get these rules changed ima be happy to pop off on the regular on yalls behalfs and such like.

[cold gust]

I guess you searched the minion chat? 🤣

I have debated posting it public, I found my write up earlier 🤣

[olive swift]

I think this is interesting but in it's current state impossible to apply. Considering there's not much that's required to actually ST, you could expect this out of "veteran" STs but there are newer STs all the time who aren't even comfortable with the mechanics themselves (including new player STs, i've seen several players who join and immediately want to ST after their first month) so im not sure if it makes sense to dawn this onto the ST's specifically

[olive swift]

Am I considered in a clique? I ask because I have never seen a clique since cabals were a thing, and i keep seeing it brought up so im curious of what cliques exist

[high storm]

Chat, don’t tell them

[olive swift]

that's it, you're banned from the clique

[high storm]

[formal crater]

timeout from the clique for you

/j please don't start flaming me

[high comet]

Ethan, Fista, and I will get together and decide if there are cliques and let yawl know

[olive swift]

@high comet That sven guy seems awfully cliquey

[bright glen]

For newer STs it might be worthwhile having a more experienced Co-ST with them to help out with checking in on new players.

[olive swift]

True, however while you can suggest people do this it's not really something you can easily enforce. I'm guessing there's a better solution to this than expecting ST's to do it

[high comet]

He's bae so he gets a pass

[keen salmon]

???

[olive swift]

close your eyes thomith, you're still bae

[high comet]

He doesn't mean anything to me THomith you know you're my number 1

[exotic plover]

I thought we were making a different thread for wholesome yaoi?

[high comet]

Yeah, where is that thing

[exotic plover]

thomith is in charge of it last I heard 👀

[olive swift]

and where's the thread for unwholesome yaoi aswell

asking for a friend

ethan stop lurking you creep

[fierce prairie]

@swift dawn is gonna type something

@swift dawn TYPE YOUR SOMETHING

WHY ARE YOU WAITING SO LONG

BE A MAN

[keen salmon]

Be nice to Ethan

[bright glen]

I mean Minions can also do it and check in on new players. However, as STs control the pace of the game - they're able to slow it down in the event of a new player not understanding certain interactions/mechanics which Minions can't unless through the ST.

For example, if Im explaining how madness works to a newer player and then get pulled back into a louder town-square, it would be difficult to continue that conversation/explanation. While an ST can just halt the game altogether and explain the mechanics.

[fiery prawn]

In long text we set up a mentor program meant to provide this support. Im not sure anyone has used it much but maybe something like that could be helpful for other areas of the server too

[deft heath]

It's been used like, twice

re: having a co-st in live games
vaguely gestures to lfgcost not being used

[bright glen]

Could be worth trying to have a more experienced spectator follow and help out with any questions/concerns in live games. However, that might also just increase cognitive load for that new player (especially if they're not familiar with Discord).

[keen salmon]

The only thing that makes me less sure a mentor program would work in Live games is it would require a mentor to be available right then and there

[river sonnet]

Could ask if any specs wanna help a newbie through a game

[hot wharf]

Mentor doesn't even work in text I don't think it'd work in live tbh

Also, the crux of a lot of this is, you're not supposed to have one person holding their hand... everyone is supposed to chip in and help make it accessibile to them

[bright glen]

What's the main reason for it not working in text?

[hot wharf]

no one uses it lolol

[bright glen]

Oh

[hot wharf]

The reason why is likely just "People who are new don't know about this niche thing that exists" which would apply to most any system one could try in live

[bright glen]

Yeah, but then we should just ask them if they would like a helper to follow them around for any questions they might have.

[deft heath]

For context, we had one announcement about it on a random day in like december or november

it is not in the rules or anything and it's lack of use also means the lack of knowledge of it's existence

[hot wharf]

If players have questions they should feel comfortable asking other players and the ST

I don't think we should offload work into another party when the issue is players in the game already aren't treating them right

[north crest]

Also co sts in live make the gsme usually twice as long

So nty

[hot wharf]

yeah the last thing i'd want is another chef in the kitchen, i'd like the current chefs to stop burning the kitchen down

[north crest]

Csnt wait for the servers to revolt

[keen salmon]

Claws away

[exotic plover]

this is a good idea in theory but a lot of the time, especially during quieter periods, there aren’t spectators or minions around watching a game. I can say from personal anecdotes I’ve ST’d games where nobody was spectating and I don’t think there’s really a way to combat it, while I agree that more support for newer STs is always good it’s something that’s difficult to put into practice fairly

having more resources available for STs like we have for new players would be better than relying on other players imo, as helpful as they can be

[bright glen]

Yeah I get that, for those games there's not much you can do. However, I think it's worth the try at least in games where someone is readily available and willing to helpout.

[north crest]

Tbh I think the best solution is to have new sts spec veteran ones for like maybe 5-10 games that way they arent slowing the game down by have a butt ton of opinons

I just think any co sts is a bad idea

Okay im ready for everyone to fight me now 😤

[idle lodge]

axes you

[olive swift]

I feel like this is something that would work better in a private gaming community, not a public one

[exotic plover]

I agree with this but not sure how enforcable it is, I've had new STs 'Co-ST' me but typically I will just narrate night actions to them and explain my thought process and answer any questions rather than actually giving them any responsibility. in my experience this has been pretty helpful, but I don't know if it's something we could or should force on this server, but definitely something we could encourage

[north crest]

Emm with the goated take reason number 422 she should be mod

[lyric oxide]

Maybe a 21 day ST timer for new players? How big of a problem is new player STing anyway

[olive swift]

i dont think new player STs are a problem, i was just saying I dont think expecting STs to be the ones to reach out to new players unprompted is a solution

It'd be easier to have resources in place for new players to look at than expect every ST to confront ever new player every game

[exotic plover]

I don't think it's a problem as such, but I've definitely heard anecdotes from many different people about bad experiences with new STs. sometimes it gets resolved in feedback and such but there's always more support that can be offered

[north crest]

I am one of these people

[fair wasp]

It would be a really good use for CESTs.....not compulsory, but that would be a really nice way to pay it forward

[stray egret]

I have been wanting to create a thread on the state of STing on this server for a while but so much has happened that I have been unable. I will at some point (unless someone beats me too it)

[lyric oxide]

What are the main points im curious

[fair wasp]

I mean, we're in a suggestions renaissance

go for it!

[stray egret]

I think that is something for another time though because I am feeling a bit burnt out by all the discussions that have happened recently and how heated some of them have been

[peak remnant]

You are now shadowing emmdrews

[north crest]

wrong thread XD

[high comet]

LOL

my bad

I swear emm and I aren't in a clique

[olive swift]

Suggestion: Channel all the energy and time spent in this thread towards helping a new player when they join. Profit: ???

[high storm]

Complaining is easier

[olive swift]

based take

[exotic plover]

currently accepting applications to the dustemm clique

[high storm]

It’s like you’re asking me to call my local representatives, when I could just complain on Reddit

[olive swift]

opening r/vigormortis rn

[high comet]

Omg DustEmm is so clever

[olive swift]

I like EmmDusty better something about it

[exotic plover]

this is why you're not in the clique

[high storm]

This whole thread feels like a clique

[swift dawn]

I like FistaWashed

[olive swift]

wait who's washed?

[swift dawn]

You

[olive swift]

? then who is Fista

im confused

[high storm]

Me when I’m the washerwoman

[stray egret]

We have two new players in beginner friendly right now, but I am in a game. Could you help them with any questions they may have?

[olive swift]

@stray egret need a pro to show me how it's done

[stray egret]

You don't need to be a pro to help new players

You just need to not be a dick really, we can all help new players

[honest coral]

I also do this and I think it's really helpful I agree 100% with everything emm has put here.

[north crest]

^who is this guy he gets the blue Community Endorsed ST and thinks he can make the rules now? Ban him

[olive swift]

i've already filed a ticket

[honest coral]

I'm gardening you as jurgen lietner next face your fears

[proven spruce]

I mean sure you can argue everyone is supposed to make a friendly environment for a new player but

IMO if a new player is lost and confused and the st is running the game like nothing is happening

It’s on the st

If people aren’t explaining to them, I think the st should be slowing down the game

It’s just part of the responsibility of having more control

The st controls so much about the game

If someone isn’t like being friendly to a new player, I think the st needs to tell them to do so instead of ignoring it and pretending everything’s fine

It’s harder for other players to do cuz of the st isn’t going to do anything about it what’s the point

[proven spruce]

I think there should be more required

They have the most control of the game

I think that if a person is going to st for the first time in a public server they need to deal with the fact that there might be player conflict and figure out what they’ll do about that before deciding they can’t confront it so they move on like nothing happened and implicitly endorse it

[shy wharf]

i do agree @olive swift use to be cool. but now he is kinda washed and lame

[worthy flicker]

Ive been watching the tread trying to wrap my head around what the alleged problems are being brought fourth. I want to add my opinions on the whole matter.

1: We understand that veteran players are using (N) for their name at times. Who cares?!
2: Most of the issues that everyone has brought up is just circling and is repetative. The funny part is no one has brought a full blown idea to help solve any of them.
3. In the matter of mod/minions: lets be honest, we know everyone is not perfect. Is there crappy things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about...maybe...but anything heard is only considered hear say (even if true). I will follow up on this point later. Also, newer players being an ST and people allowing it without fully learning all the mechanics is a systematic issue.
4. In regards to newer players not getting that full on experience of learning the game properly, This does not fall on the ST or mods or minions or etc. Lets be honest, the unofficial is not appropriately set up to handle new players. There are too many veteran players in the server and the server continues to grow. This is a systematic issue not a personal one.

5. The way tickets are handled are fine, but if you ask people to file tickets on minions or mods in good faith, most will not happen. There is no rhyme or reason to have people believe that the mod/minion in question will not catch wind of the filed ticket. There is and could be a huge fear of reprocutions.

So my points are this.
-This thread is repetitive and not becoming anything more than a place for people to vent and argue.
-Lets not sweat the smaller things like (N) tags. There are bigger things to worry about.
-You want to make this server more newer friendly, how about people that are chosen to be minions are ST "certified", and they run games with newer people so games are ran well and teaching is proper.
-Make sure there is a system where if someone feels slighted by a mod/minion, they can report without the fear of backlash.

[stray egret]

The problem about making minions be ST certified is many minions don't ST. Minions are not involved with tickets, but I understand that people might feel uncomfortable complaining about many minions because they are friends with mods. Admin only tickets do solve some of these issues, but I agree this is not always sufficient. Do you have any ideas as to how to solve the issues people have brought up by the way? The more solutions that are raised, by people with different perspectives, the better ❤️

[worthy flicker]

I can go through when I have a moment and see every single issue and come up with some ideas. I only targeted the major ones i saw in question. But to my point, maybe only people who have experience should be mods/minions

There are so many systemic issues in the server going on. The mods are overwhelmed as it is. The minions dont have much responsibilities. Why couldnt the take on some stuff...and or no more minions, make mods instead and other issues not being handled could then be handled.

[stray egret]

Many of us minions have asked for more responsibilities in the past but mods have refused help

[worthy flicker]

The minions are not in question. The problem is the amount of responsibilities needed handled dont match the number of people handling them. There is nothing wrong with people taking a step back, going what are all the things that need moderation, and divy up the tasks. There is more than just answering tickets, and watching games.

[stray egret]

That would be great, if you are able to. I would push back a little though on the idea that you should have ST experience to be a minion or a mod, I can't speak for mods as I am not a mod myself but some of our best minions are not STs

[stray egret]

I agree, there is too much work for too few people. One of the most important skills in management is delegation, and not enough of that happens on this server, which leads to mod burnout

[worthy flicker]

There is nothing saying that current minions cant learn to ST. No one is saying get rid of the minions. Im saying set up for success and not ignoring the underlying issues at hand. You want a ship to set sail and run perfectly, then you need the best crew possible. Other servers thrive because they have people who have learned most to all aspects. they can answer any questions. There are no holes in the system. The problem is this server has NOT had a spring cleaning in awhile. It DOSENT need new mods or minions, it needs training, it needs a systematic overhaul.

[stone ember]

the truth is however that the cook of the ship doesn’t need to learn how to steer it

[worthy flicker]

The truth is if the cook doesnt know what an iceberg is, they wont know they are about to drown

[stone ember]

analogies aside, i’m a discussion minion

do i ST? yes

do i play/ST games in this server?

no bc of the issues laid out in this forum

i promise you, forcing minions to learn how to storytell even if they don’t care to be involved with live games here, won’t be resourceful

we can’t simply have all minions be involved with all parts of the server because of the sheer size of it

there’s a reason why we have different teams set up

[worthy flicker]

You dont have to force anybody to do anything. My point is not to have ALL. My point is to have some dedicated people assigned to do certain things to handle certain issues at hand. Once again, this server is not set up properly to handle newer player games (I'll be the one to say it).
Have there been newer player games in the server? Yea, but what about after those....
Also saying you cant have minions helping because of the sheer size of the server? I mean kind of redundant right? You have the MODS saying they are doing everything and falling behind. As someone who was a minion, I know the responsibillites of minions are few to none (expect a few). wouldnt you want more help to regulate things? I mean its a volunteer thing. This is the problem. You have people who are active in the server saying you guys need the help. You have MODS taking on too much. No one is blaming the minions or mods. But if people dont see the redundancy here, then I have some worries.

[stone ember]

From what I read, I got the impression that you were suggesting that all Minions should be ST-certified. If not all, then I’d agree to the extent of some live game Minions maybe doing so. I also did not say that Minions can’t help at all; I said that you cannot expect Minions to aid in every “factor” of the server. Having everyone do everything adequately is worse than having some people focus on a few things well. Not to say that some won’t become jacks-of-all-trades, but that’s an exception. And again, we are agreeing with you, Minions should have more clearly, laid out responsibilities. Right now, our list of such is kinda a soup.

[fierce prairie]

@exotic plover how is your day going?

@exotic plover why you still didnt sleep

@exotic plover go to sleep

@exotic plover you are in trouble trouble

[fiery prawn]

[hot wharf]

Can you like, not? Lmfao

[stone ember]

yeah no wrong place for this lol

on top of spam pinging someone

[worthy flicker]

Once again this is not an attack on anybody. this is a suggestion to help unify and make the server more regulated

[mild torrent]

We take confidentiality very seriously, especially when it comes to protecting ticket openers. We want people to feel like they can come to us confidently with these issues.

Since you are specifically talking about reporting moderators, this means opening an admin-only ticket in which the seriousness of confidentiality is only increased. If there are real fears of backlash because you are a reporter in these situations, we need to address them immediately.

[exotic plover]

stop spam pinging me and be respectful of the ongoing conversation please

[worthy flicker]

Its not a me thing personally, but honestly it happens in this server more than whats seen. I do agree with you clarke that (as i said eariler) I dont feel the mods arent doing what they need to do (and minions). But if there are worries, there is nothing wrong with making sure everyone knows they can without the backlash. My whole point is that we all know there are things that need fixing. But I am a firm believer that If someone brings an issue to the table, come with a solution as well. My thoughts are not to demoralize anyone. My thoughts are to help bring something more to this server and that alone.

[river sonnet]

This is also a suggestions thread:) people may come with an issue to see what others suggest as a solution for said issue.

[cinder parrot]

Also, a lot of newer players here might not have the time spent in this server to know what sort of solutions to propose, and this issue affects them the most!

[river sonnet]

1. People have complained about it, some people care.
2. Not everyone was active at the same time. When people reply to older parts of the thread, parts of the conversation circulate. It is very hard to find a solution to problem others are fighting to say does not exist.
3. Saying any social issue is hearsay is fine, but what solution will ever arise from that mentality? None. I am bringing this up because it was not readdressed I feel.
4. As a new player, I have played with many veterans just fine. Some people are very beginner friendly and some very much are not. That feels like a more social issue.

[stray egret]

There is always a danger of things just becoming people talking about issues and not solutions, but as long as we make sure to move things on to solutions I agree this mode of discussion can be productive in some senses

[river sonnet]

True:) some of the issues brought up in this thread have moved to other threads to focus on just solutions. Also like I said before, people denying that an issue is of importance/real greatly slows down the time of solving it.

[stray egret]

Exactly, an issue might not be an issue to you, but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue to other people.

[quartz mason]

I would like to state that new players do not know that the [N] tag is used as a joke on the server and I think it is disingenuous to claim that everyone knows about that meme when talking about the experience of new players who are specifically told that it is something for them.

[cinder parrot]

#1485771973270179992 message

I wrote a longer message in this thread with my personal experience of not knowing it was a joke, but this is part of what I said

It seems strange to me to promote the whole new player scheme to allow new players to be cared for and find each other but then allow people to disrupt that system.

In particular players were almost dismissive/disdainful that I didn't know it was a joke, and that seemed truly bizzare; this system designed to support and help include players new to livevoice was actually almost doing the opposite.

[ionic monolith]

wow i hate you

[cinder parrot]

Something else, regarding mod culture:
It looks like mods produce mod logs each month. Something I've seen be successful in improving mod accountability would be including rough breakdowns of how much each mod is contributing to tickets in mod logs. (In the context I saw it, it was something a bit different, but it translates).

This has some advantages:
• It increases transparency & visibility of the mod team
• As a consequence, it will hopefully increase server trust
• It will potentially push less active mods to be a bit more active. (I'm not sure if there are some mods that are much less active than others here, but there was in the context I saw this originally implemented, and it did improve the volume of what they did)

There are also some disadvantages:
• It could minimise the important non-ticket things that mods do
• It could leave mods to not properly investigate and process tickets in a push to boost their numbers
• It understates the importance of behavioral issues.

To expand on that last bullet point: this wouldn't really attempt to fix apparent behavioral issues that members have raised here. This largely fixes a separate problem of mods that aren't pulling their weight as much. I'm not in the loop enough to know if that is a problem here, but unless you're on the mod team, you probably don't know either! I raise this mainly because it had good results elsewhere, and to put it on the radar of people that might know if it should apply here.

[fierce prairie]

ok, do i need to bring out the quote?

[stray egret]

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/569683781846433828

[modest pier]

So regarding new ST and new player ST, I have tried to co-st when there is new ST who is not familiar with more advance script that TB. the experience has show even when there is veteran co-st helping, the new ST will still make a lot if mistake unless the co-st hand holding them every step of the way.

[stone ember]

also like

people need to understand the social contract that comes with playing with a new ST

so long as they’re running TB, i honestly don’t see an issue

[proven spruce]

One issue that I saw brought up here was people of the minion/mod team harrassing people

Is that an issue with admins too?

Would anyone here feel like an admin did that?

Sounds like lack of accountability for higher up people seems to be an issue that tickets aren't resolving, judging by what people are saying here

[idle lodge]

That's honestly always a problem when there's a small group of people with all the power in a space

Maybe something they can ask folks is also how they can take accountability in a way that would actually make sense to everyone

Most of the spaces I've been in, they talk about accountability in the sense of Yeah we keep each other accountable (admins w each other) and it genuinely doesn't feel good enough

So if that's an issue here, that can definitely be worked on

[formal crater]

I don’t think it’s fair to constantly question everything about the system or the admins as a whole. From my own experience, my interactions with the admins have always been positive. I trust each of them individually, and also collectively as a team, to make the right decisions - especially when it comes to handling tickets involving moderators. I believe that if an admin were to make a mistake, David, as the server owner, would personally review and investigate the situation.

I’m not saying the system is perfect. However, from what I understand, the number of tickets opened each month represents a significant amount of work behind the scenes. I imagine each case likely involves several days, if not up to a week, of review and consideration. Personally, that’s not something I would want to take on, which is why I try not to be overly critical of the process.

Handling tickets also seems emotionally demanding. Reading through people’s negative experiences and conflicts can be draining, and that’s one of the main reasons I’ve never applied to be a moderator myself. It may come across as though I’m siding with the moderators, but my perspective is simply that a lot of unseen effort goes into the role.

[idle lodge]

You can acknowledge the amount of effort that goes into something while also asking for accountability as someone who's under a system. Both of those things can coexist

Like we can avoid being overly critical of the admin team and still talk about how we can better the space we're in or what they can do better as well. That's how spaces grow and improve to begin with. A lot of the community and admins' functioning is also reliant on the feedback provided by members. I'd say it's necessary to bring into question how those people we've put into power to keep us safe ensure the work is good and hold themselves accountable

[fair wasp]

I agree that we shouldn't say "it's a lot of work so we should just let it be".
Personally, I've not had issues with the admin team and feel like I can reach out in a ticket or privately if I have an issue that requires their attention.
Accountability at all levels is important for trust in the system but it also helps ensure that everyone understands what they're doing. I don't know about mods, but there isn't too much onboarding for being a minion, just some expectations and a lil mind map Sun made on how to fix the queue

[ornate zephyr]

I think that if there's a concern about a mod/minion, we can all be united in encouraging the ticket system AND assuring the person that the admin team takes these issues seriously.

[small gulch]

i agree with this, i've seen experienced STs ask veterans if they'd like to request TB more than a handful of times, lol. also there are some folks who've been in the server for years that still consider themselves new, so server join date isn't reliable, nor should STs be expected to check it

i've seen people drop out of games for other players with an N-tag even though they were veterans, just bc they didn't know them well.

i have had one awkward conversation where an N-tag player asked why a veteran player would use it. they were like, "am i doing something socially inappropriate by using it? people told me to put it on." the implication is that these veteran players think new players are getting some benefit by using it that they don't think new players should have.

so i don't think it's the biggest issue in this thread, but i also don't see why the server couldn't just implement a rule saying "stop being a dick about N tags, don't use it if you aren't genuinely new." and idk why people are so defensive about continuing to permit it. it may be a non-issue to some of you, but is it a funny or necessary joke? is it worth making some people uncomfortable?

[hot wharf]

Yeah I do not get the hesitation about N tags. Just stop using them as a joke who fucking cares? Stop using an avenue for new players to get assistance as your soapbox and meme

That should be the easiest mod vote ever and I am shocked it’s taken so long

[small gulch]

yeah i think the "who cares" response is interesting, it's come up more than a few times, and it's like, alright if you don't care and you don't think it's a big deal, then... why do you have a stance at all, idk

[hot wharf]

"Who cares about it" evidently a good handful of people!! And it's obvious by so many of these experiences new players care as well lmao

[river sonnet]

I will say, i think veteran players using an [N] made a ST think i was a veteran player. Because of this, I didn’t get asked if i requested tb or base 3—i would have requested base 3. I was stuck in a custom game:/

[idle lodge]

Oh no

[solemn geode]

make a new tag [N, but actually], problem solved

[north crest]

nawh they have to face their fears (okay ill see my sef out)

[lyric oxide]

3rd request for [TB] [B3] tags

Or [X GP] games played

[river sonnet]

I like this one:D cuz veteran players get to show off too

[fair wasp]

My only concern with that is that it's a lot of updating for someone potentially new to discord

[river sonnet]

I don’t think it is too complicated to teach someone how to do. But, i hadn’t thought of that:)

[fair wasp]

I have flashbacks to the times its taken 45 minutes to get everyone using discord at newbie games 😆

[river sonnet]

Oh no haha

[lyric oxide]

TB B3 would help the often clunky transition between live games. Games played doesn't always indicate what you're comfortable with

"Oh there's a TB tag, we know what we're playing"

Though new players would need proper intro to how to use them

[fair wasp]

And, as mentioned, sometimes you can dip your toe out of TB, and then want to scurry back into it

[lyric oxide]

Games played could evolve into bad competiveness stuff..

[hot wharf]

Yeah i'd want to avoid making games played a thing that is commonly publicized

[median atlas]

It’s true honestly even as a veteran I have to do a double take to see who has it on as an st

[median atlas]

This may have been me and for that I am really sorry Leena

The ST thinking u were a vet I mean

[river sonnet]

Wasn’t you:) I don’t think the ST meant any harm by it. It just can confuse who is actually new

[median atlas]

Yeah it definitely does confuse me when I ST

[boreal kindle]

In my opinion this is on the ST. They should just ask

[dry ibex]

@winged arch

[fresh jackal]

cough

[small gulch]

i never noticed you had it tbh lol

[hallow vine]

i mean sure but i remember the convo

[simple tree]

Fucking send. Sad they got to you.

[small gulch]

the convo i had was a while ago and it wasn't about you, i think i've only played with you like twice haha

[hallow vine]

there is like 3 of us haha

[river sonnet]

I’m not sure how this is helpful in any way

[formal crater]

I’m not saying we should just accept the system as it is. I’m trying to explain why the system might feel broken at times, but personally, I feel that questioning the admins’ integrity goes a step too far. It’s one thing to point out gaps or areas for improvement, but assuming bad faith from the people handling the work doesn’t feel fair, especially given the amount of time and emotional effort that goes into reviewing tickets.

No system is ever going to be perfect, especially not a newer or evolving one. There will always be room for refinement, and constructive feedback is important for helping things improve over time. At the same time, accountability can still exist without assuming ill intent.

If it helps, I’m happy to ping David so he can clarify how situations are handled when admins make mistakes. I think hearing directly about the process for accountability might provide more transparency and help address some of the concerns being raised.

[simple tree]

The mods are generally good these days. Once upon a time they were the 'launchpad to jobs at pandemonium' types - those days are gone and we have a fairly responsive bunch.

[formal crater]

I know right? I was thinking the same thing lmao! I feel it was just the overwhelming tickets got too much…

If I’m not gonna sign up to do the job, I’m gonna keep my comments on how inefficient mods are to myself - Mods, I don’t think that about you guys. Genuinely, only love 🩷

[stray egret]

I agree that it is unfair to assume bad faith on the admins' part, they are volunteers who give a lot to the server. I do think there isn't any harm in questioning what processes are there to prevent admins acting in bad faith though. I don't know the admins personally, and I'm sure they are great, but we need to know what would happened if they weren't great. Clarity on how situations are handled when admins make mistakes would be great though for accountability and transparency, as you said.

[fiery prawn]

I can absolutely understand the desire for transparency, and the fear that not having it can cause. It's something the team can absolutely discuss along with a lot of the other points brought up so that we can figure out what solutions we can find to as many of the issues as possible.

I genuinely appreciate everyone who has taken the time and energy to contribute meaningfully in this discussion.

[formal crater]

Right now, we seem to be discussing hypotheticals without concrete examples showing that the admins have acted improperly, and that doesn’t sit particularly well with me. When concerns about moderators or minions were raised, people were able to share specific anecdotes. However, broadly doubting everyone within the system without similar examples doesn’t feel constructive, and in my view, it doesn’t really help move things forward.

If the concern is about admins’ accountability or behaviour, has anyone actually experienced or been told about a specific instance where an admin acted inappropriately? It would be helpful to understand whether these concerns are based on real situations or assumptions.

At some point, it comes down to trust. Either we trust people to act in good faith, or we don’t. One of my personal principles is to think well of people unless there is clear reason not to. I think that mindset helps keep discussions fair and grounded, while still leaving room to address genuine issues if they arise.

[quartz vapor]

I think there is fair discussion to have about the n tags and where they should be used. You might be using it in the way criticized but that does not mean that comments about it's change is targeting you specifically. I think having language be confrontational and that assumes other side is up to get you is not beneficial for a healthy conversation

[median atlas]

I have only had good experiences with admins while some terrible ones with mods however it is a little hard to share specific stories when we are not allowed to call out specific people

[formal crater]

There you go, then I’ll not sit here and listen to hypothetical admin slander. Thank you for coming to my ted talk 🤣

[stray egret]

I guess the reason we are discussing hypotheticals is because we can't point to concrete examples where the admins have acted improperly, because most of what the admins do is unknown to us. The fact we don't know whether they are acting properly is concerning for me. I think blind trust in authority is dangerous, but I admit we are crossing into ideological discussion now.

That being said, I agree that I have not seen negative actions by admins

[formal crater]

I understand where you’re coming from, and I agree that blind trust in any authority isn’t ideal. Accountability and transparency are important in any system. At the same time, I don’t think the absence of visible examples of wrongdoing should automatically lead us to assume that something is wrong behind the scenes.

From what we can see, there are structures in place - admins review tickets, and David, as the server owner, has oversight over the admins themselves. That suggests there are internal checks, even if we don’t see every step of the process. Realistically, some level of confidentiality is necessary when handling reports, especially when they involve interpersonal conflicts or sensitive situations. Full transparency isn’t always possible without potentially compromising the people involved.

I’m not saying the system is perfect or that it shouldn’t be improved. Constructive discussion about how accountability can be strengthened is reasonable.

However, I personally feel that moving from “how can the system improve?” to questioning the integrity of the admins, without any concrete indication of misconduct, risks undermining trust in a way that may not be proportionate to the concern.

If it would help, I’m happy to ping David to clarify what the accountability process looks like when admins make mistakes. That might give more concrete insight into the safeguards that already exist, and whether there are gaps worth addressing.

[keen salmon]

I'm keeping this entirely vague, because I am not sure what the Admin Team are willing to share themselves, but I think some of the discussions surrounding the current Admin Team is largely unfair. As a former Admin who stepped down recently, there are things in place to hold Admins accountable, and ensure they are suitable for the role.

[quartz vapor]

If they were there, how am I an admin thomith

checkmate

[formal crater]

@unique hedge get in here, stop playing Pokémon and help me

[fiery prawn]

Smh when did we make Utku an admin /j

[olive swift]

He wants to be the very best, leave king alone

[formal crater]

Ikr

[stray egret]

That is very good to hear. I am sorry if my discussion became unfair, I just care a lot about having admins that act as fairly as possible

[formal crater]

Yea, but they can’t share much like I said

[high comet]

I give people full permission to share any negative experiences about me I believe in transparency

[ionic monolith]

can I be admin @moderator

[boreal kindle]

This is not a country where the "authority" can have control of how we live our lives. This is a server where we play games.

[ionic monolith]

@halcyon lintel is cute

[halcyon lintel]

I'm so mad Santa isnt real!!! Where do I send my letter of complaint?

[ionic monolith]

@high comet bigot

[fiery prawn]

Whoa

[olive swift]

Let's settle everything in a game of clocktower

[sand musk]

im going to target you in among us again

[ionic monolith]

Whoever gets executed we ban

[fiery prawn]

Ew who plays clocktower

[ionic monolith]

I’m literally a feminist what did I do to you

[halcyon lintel]

Yawn

[ionic monolith]

Cringe ass VN PFP

[high comet]

I'm literally a misogynist leave my mans alone

[ionic monolith]

This is brave

[keen salmon]

The main thing that I disagree with, is that the discussions and some of the things that were being said, was coming across, at least to me, that because Admin Teams in other online communities have done bad things, that it is likely that the Admin Team in this server are also likely to do bad things, and that there was an assumption that there was no safeguards in place. These are detailed very briefly in #moderation, so I think it is clear that these do exist. It does feel like some assumptions surrounding the Admin Team were made without much evidence to back these up as Moon said, and it feels like some people were entirely assuming the absolute worst.

[formal crater]

Thomith, my man, we’re on the same wavelength today

[stray egret]

I agree with this completely. Sorry my discussion crossed the line, I will try to do better in future

[olive swift]

@formal crater yeh but did you know he's bald?

[formal crater]

You’re a big fat meanie 😟

[boreal kindle]

Really? I never knew!

[sand musk]

and 60 yo

[formal crater]

Stop it

[keen salmon]

I'm never forgiving Fista

[olive swift]

careful he was on the mod team, he's got ops everywhere

[royal cape]

If anything goes truly wrong here then David shows up, tells some stories about his life or how the server used to be, then nukes things until we're back in order. This is only a joke in tone, not in fact! (Buck will ultimately always stop with a server owner, past that accountability is voting with your feet/attention)

[boreal kindle]

For speaking the truth?

[keen salmon]

You did a 360 when I said I was standing behind you

pipe down

[olive swift]

they can't silence me!

[formal crater]

It’s okay, just get him executed in clocktower 🤔

[boreal kindle]

For the record, you said "turn around"

[formal crater]

I’m waiting for David to show up anytime now

[keen salmon]

Why did you ping him 😭

[formal crater]

Well, I’m moon

I do what I want /j

[river sonnet]

I can’t even imagine owning such a huge server

[fiery prawn]

For real

[halcyon lintel]

Careful I dont want to see a thread on you

[olive swift]

it's easy, just ignore them

[formal crater]

Well, my friends would die for me ☠️

[boreal kindle]

Which friends?

[formal crater]

My friend groups

[halcyon lintel]

You mean clique

[formal crater]

NO NO NO, friend groups

[olive swift]

The only thing i know about cliques is that mouse do it

[halcyon lintel]

Suuuuureeee

[median atlas]

Ok so I agree about having not seen anything wrong with the admins (although there should be a space to report it if someone does have something to report). But I don’t think we should be mocking the idea that cliques r an issue on this server they most definitely are

[olive swift]

Don't think anyone is mocking the idea of cliques. I disagree though that any cliques exist.

[halcyon lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/nod-don-vito-corleone-marlon-brando-the-godfather-ok-gif-24887889

[sand musk]

says the clique leader

[halcyon lintel]

Im glad I have freewill to join and leave servers as I wish 🤷‍♀️

[sand musk]

sorry vice-leader it is the peach clique

[olive swift]

You're removed from the clique.

[halcyon lintel]

Keep my name outta your mouth 😒

[sand musk]

theyre gonna delete my message please im good we're good

[north crest]

Friend groups or cliques..hmm..

O carry on

[halcyon lintel]

Just so anyone knows anyone can join my friends group!!

Ill send you the rules

[north crest]

Imagine having/wanting friends

[high comet]

Well... so long as Wiwwyy doesn't veto...

[halcyon lintel]

I dont... They just flock to me

[olive swift]

help, she wont let me leave

S.O.S

[quartz vapor]

I understand people wanting an avenue to do lighthearted jabs and jokes as well but I think it carries the risk of minimizing people's points and making them feel excluded from the discussion

[halcyon lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/be-doo-be-doo-minion-despicable-me-alert-warning-gif-11970734646175466629

[olive swift]

Nah, everytime ive asked about cliques i've been ignored, so i dont mind. I've actually been curious because im like 90% sure they are referring to people I know but yet no one i know has ever been approached. If true btw, is not a clique.

[formal crater]

Hi David 🩷🥺

[unique hedge]

I never expected it to get nearly this big. We didn't bother having voice channels early on because "when would we ever have enough people online at the same time to actually play a game live?" 🤣

[median atlas]

Yes this is what I was trying to say about the clique jokes thank you for wording that better

[prime obsidian]

Gave +1 Thanks to @quartz vapor (current: #26 - 1071)

[unique hedge]

not here to nuke anything, don't worry. 💜 just catching up

[keen salmon]

how boring

[river sonnet]

i wish you luck… this is a long ass thread

[formal crater]

Can you confirm my claims? 😶

[unique hedge]

not the first time I was pinged into it, so I'm not starting from scratch 👍🏻

[keen salmon]

Moon how many times did you ping David smh

[formal crater]

Both would be because of me 😆

Once was me, the other was cb

[olive swift]

Do you personally have issues with this? If so/if not can you explain some of cliquey behaviour that you have seen?

[median atlas]

As many many others have said before on this thread there r certain players who will not talk in games to anyone outside of their groups, speak over outside players and never listen to them, and always give other members benefit of the doubt while pushing extra hard on outside players for the smallest things

This is more common in certain time zones though

[river sonnet]

Cliques stink:/

[olive swift]

@median atlas I cant think of a single player this is true about though. Ive seen players who won't talk to anyone. Benefit of the doubt? I don't think this point makes sense, i think bias towards people you know is common among most players. Pushing extra hard on outside players for the smallest things also sounds very vague, can you be more specific?

[unique hedge]

I am the "ultimate" authority here, if someone has some real, specific concerns about an admin, you can DM me directly and I'll investigate. Your identity won't be disclosed as part of that investigation unless you tell me you're fine with that.

(Also, if anyone is doing anything in text that violates Discord's ToS, you can mostly-anonymously report it to them by right-clicking or long-pressing a message and hitting that red flag in the context menu. "mostly-anonymously" because Discord will know who reported it, but they don't share details of their investigations.)

[formal crater]

Heck yeah, I’m right

[river sonnet]

Not being here for long, i feel like ive seen clique behavior

[olive swift]

can you give an example of behaviour you've noticed, without referencing players

[river sonnet]

Absolutely:) isolating other players, leaving vc’s when someone new joins (to a different vc or otherwise) poking fun of others outside of a clique, and specific examples within this thread. But then that is basically naming people:/

[simple tree]

Isolating other players is absolutely against the rules and not 'clique behaviour'.

Send em to the gulag!

[unique hedge]

Since people don't know me that well since I've sorta burned out and stepped back, it might help to know that I chose @kindred night as my "heir" a while back, so if anything happens to me (like I ragequit after being pinged into the same thread three times) she'll inherit the server ownership 💜 that's why the "crown" is sitting on the mostly-unused @prime jacinth account instead of my head personally, I made it and passed ownership over to it, and have set up a system where Jess can take control of it if necessary.

[kindred night]

Hiii 😄

[river sonnet]

Sorry to hear about the burn out:) thank you for making it in the first place

[prime obsidian]

Gave +1 Thanks to @unique hedge (current: #224 - 293)

[olive swift]

See, I had a feeling this could be part of it. It's not clique behaviour, speaking from someone who does this, but I do understand and think about how it makes other players feel.

But it has nothing to do with players being new that this happens

[formal crater]

I personally move down a channel when I'm with too many people cos anxiety strikes 🥲

[river sonnet]

I’m talking about groups of people:) not individuals

[olive swift]

Poking fun at people outside of their clique is interesting. Cant speak on this, not personally seen it

[formal crater]

yea but it may look like that cos sometimes, my friends follow and they care about me ❤️

[unique hedge]

And now that I've sent like 5 whole messages in this one thread just today, I'm gonna f||uc||k off and work on my TTRPG stuff I need to get done, my players are doing weird stuff and I gotta make them regret it.

I wonder if it's time to try to set up a mod RPG session again...

[river sonnet]

A group of people moving vcs when someone new joins isnt clique behavior?

[swift dawn]

hi

[river sonnet]

Hi

[olive swift]

Does that actually factually happen or are you perceiving that's what is happening?

[river sonnet]

What is all this doubt???

[olive swift]

My bad, as a person who likes to leave when too many people are present in channels i thought i'd speak up

can't say ive ever left or known anyone to leave because a new player has joined

[river sonnet]

I don’t know if it is new player specific:) i hope not, i am just assuming it could be anyone

[olive swift]

if that is the case, you should investigate said player(s) because that sounds more like bullying than clique behaviour

[simple tree]

So, its super common behaviour, for singles and groups of people to peel off from the main channel to discuss almost anything between games. You are free to join these. During a game, this sometimes happens at night, but is mostly singles as its a bit scuffed otherwise. Your perception might be that this is clique behaviour. It is and isnt. It's not really, its more a function of this being a communal space and sometimes people want a bit less going on, or to not bother the main channel with awkward flirting.

[river sonnet]

It was not from a main channel, i do understand how all that works

[quartz mason]

I cannot handle more than 5 people in a channel aside fron during games/ directly after games. I will leave a channel if the whole group comes and starts talking about a previous game in whichever channel I dropped to inti another channel to wait for another game. I do agree that if its a smaller group people should be more willing to say hey I am just trying to talk to x person / people rather than passive aggressively leaving channels

[olive swift]

Wouldn't call it passive aggressive but sure that could help.

[median atlas]

What is it if not passive aggressive?

[quartz mason]

@olive swift from what I have seen when people try to talk about behavior they find cliquey your response has either "I have never seen that" or "I don't think your concerns are valid" while I get that you might not share the same concerns I do not think no one has talked to you about what they believe to be cliquey behavior

[olive swift]

just passive?

@quartz mason it's fine to be wrong, i can show you through my DMs

I got messaged, once, today, about 30 minutes ago ever

[river sonnet]

It is very very frustrating for me to share what is cliquey behavior and be told i am perceiving things wrong

[jaunty sierra]

You ask for feedback on your behavour but when you get it you dismiss it all

[quartz mason]

I have seen people repeatedly leave vcs rather than just tell someone to they want privacy. That is passive aggressive

[olive swift]

@jaunty sierra What did I dismiss?

point me

[olive swift]

Are you sure it's aggressive?

[median atlas]

Exactly! most ppl here r adults we can use our words to politely say when we want privacy or to talk to a specific person

[quartz mason]

I am referring to times when you have dismissed concerns during active conversation.

[olive swift]

true, disagreeing = dismissing

[river sonnet]

This really got me.

You basically asked me for examples, i gave them, and then called me crazy

[olive swift]

@jaunty sierra This is dismissing still?

i asked a question

[river sonnet]

You basically called me crazy there

[olive swift]

otherwise how do you know someone is leaving BECAUSE someone joined?

i didnt know we were mind readers here

[ornate zephyr]

Hi folks, are you sure that this is the channel where you want to discuss this topic? It feels like we are veering off topic.

[olive swift]

? I thought you said you didn't think noone talked to me about it

[quartz mason]

I'm glad you have never experienced an entire group leaving directly after you joined a voice channel.

[worthy flicker]

This thread is becoming more and more concerning as it goes on

[stray egret]

I think it might be a good idea to turn slow mode on again

[quartz mason]

I assumed you considered messages you directly replied to to be in conversation with you. My apologies if this is not so

[olive swift]

Ok i don't know what you're talking about so i'm move on

[olive swift]

If you read what i said you would have read "i understand" about this sentiment, and im sure there's something better that can be done

[keen salmon]

@quartz vapor

[olive swift]

all i pointed out was i dont think it's done in any form of "passive aggressive"

Ty i look handsome ik

[royal cape]

Server suggestion posts aren't for personal back and forths about how anyone in particular is doing things here, please take those to DMs or get mods involved if there's something to report

[formal crater]

I think we should all calm down and take a step back at the moment 😶

[quartz mason]

Okay

[olive swift]

I'll clearly state, because I get it, it's tough. I think it sucks when everyone leaves town square, and it's just a new player left by themselves for example. And im saying I do this too. I dont think, for majority of cases, read, 99.9%, it's because a new player entered it.

[hot wharf]

I think a good point to take away from this is that regardless of why they left, the leaving is a massive problem. Because it is the communities job to foster that new players experience. Leaving them alone does not help that at all

[quartz vapor]

Fista I understand that you are trying to get to understand what others are thinking and try to argue your point against it. But the way you are doing seems like you pressuring people for arguments and then breaking those arguments when those arguments relied on what they felt in the first place.

[small gulch]

i regularly do this (leave w/o saying anything if a group follows me and starts talking about a game - i have schizoaffective disorder and get really overstimulated by a lot of overtalking, and discord makes it worse bc of the way it cuts out audio). i do it quietly bc i dont want to interrupt and sometimes people will follow me, i didnt even realize it would be seen as passive aggressive. i was worried saying something like "i'm gonna hop to a quiet chat for myself but yall have fun" would actually be seen as passive aggressive lol i'll start doing that tho

[gaunt sandal]

5 minute slowmode is now on.

[olive swift]

@quartz vapor Preach king

[stray egret]

Ty, I was going to ping you about that ❤️

[prime obsidian]

Gave +1 Thanks to @gaunt sandal (current: #295 - 218)

[quartz mason]

My concern is not with big groups I think leaving them is fine. Its when one person joins a smaller VC and then several people immediately move VCs. You're fine ashe

[quartz vapor]

Sun I also do not think that you are discussing with good faith. I think you are being very confrontational. I understand that you are trying to show Fista about something you think he is doing but the way you are doing it feels like you are doing it feels off

[median atlas]

I believe ppl r talking about small chats, not town square

[spark ermine]

Yeah, if anyone feels like this channel is becoming arguments more than debating, let a mod know and we can stop the discussion.

Suggestions imo should be more for one post and then that's it. Debating ideas can happen ofc but I personally don't think it's productive here

[exotic plover]

I have to say I worry that a lot of what people are saying here will make people who might have difficulties with large groups or anxiety feel worse about their behaviour, I absolutely agree we should not be excluding people but I also think we should try and not assume badly of others and that they should not sacrifice their own comfort in games/after games while still being mindful of others

[median atlas]

Yeah don’t worry the issue is not individual ppl leaving, it is what Elli, said ur completely fine same with what @exotic plover is saying, u guys r right and we definitely do want to make it possible for individuals to leave whenever they feel. I beleive this specific conversation is about how sometimes specific groups will leave whenever new ppl try to join

[jaunty sierra]

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1146801057431834734

[olive swift]

I'm not even 100% sure this is the issue in the end

[boreal kindle]

The way I see it this is mostly perspective. If we all accept that people perceive things differently and assume they don't mean harm, this could all be resolved.

[river sonnet]

Please start believing people when they come forward with issues. It is insane that the norm is not to. I really wanted to stay in this server because botc is a great game, but the social issues have driven me out. Thanks @stray egret @fair wasp @quartz vapor . I feel you are genuinely amazing people, to others I just don’t know you well enough to @ you. Much love

[prime obsidian]

Gave +1 Thanks to @fair wasp (current: #71 - 649)

Gave +1 Thanks to @quartz vapor (current: #26 - 1072)

Gave +1 Thanks to @stray egret (current: #211 - 310)

[spark ermine]

I'll be honest, I've lost complete faith in this thread's helpfulness 💀 if you have ideas and want to make a change, I'd recommend telling Utku or Sprout or open a ticket for the mod team

Ofc, I know lots of you will have posted helpful insights but I've read so much negative stuff that I'm passed trusting this thread

[simple tree]

First they came for the [N] tags to save the children and you did nothing. Then they came for those that follow the rules because they are making spaces not safe - and you did nothing. Now they came for the personal space in separate channels. (This is largely satire)

[exotic plover]

one thing I’ll mention anecdotally is that sometimes after a game if things are heated or the game ended unsatisfyingly for whatever reason, I like to go to a smaller vc to chill out between games, and if the vc gets too large I might move down to a different one and I know other people who would do the same. I would never ever move down because of a specific person but sometimes just because the vc is getting too big for my liking, and if I was having a conversation with someone they might come down with me too. I can definitely see how that might appear to others but also (again only speaking anecdotally from my own experience) I don’t think it’s wrong for people to do, it’s a difficult thing to balance

[sand musk]

I don't think this thread helped anyone tbh

[median atlas]

Oh for sure as said this is completely fine I think what ppl were talking about was when one person joins everyone else in the small chat leaves

[stray egret]

As the person who has possibly been the most active in this thread, I agree. We, and I include myself in this, are not capable of good faith discussion. I think some good things came out of this thread but it also has done a lot of harm and exposed how toxic we all can be. I think many of us, myself included, need to pull a livetext and take a break.

[jaunty sierra]

this thread might not have been the most productive on our side and theres been a lot of circular discussion but i think its good to have all frustrations be raised and now we wait and see if the mod team can come up with usefull action to help the community grow

[olive swift]

start by banning that fista guy i think

[keen salmon]

Would be karma for you thinking I was 60 tbh

[worthy flicker]

You’re double unbanned

[formal crater]

Can't we close this? I don't think this has been productive and a lot of the discussions are in bad faith 🥺

[primal sapphire]

... What is this even supposed to imply about livetext

[exotic plover]

I appreciate you clarifying! my concern was that I didn't want anyone reading this thread to worry that things they were doing for their own comfort shouldn't be allowed. I definitely agree that intentionally exclusionary behaviour is not okay and should be ticketed

[simple tree]

I dunno, really helped people get tribal and other team each other. We didn't even need an algorithm to do it!

[olive swift]

Sorry can't hear you, you said tribal and now im imagining you in a loin cloth

[stray egret]

Livetext has a culture where people will take breaks from playing because it can be a lot sometimes

[median atlas]

Yeah it probably is best to close this now if possible ur right it has gone off the rails quite a bit. I think it doesn’t hurt for there to be a space for ppl to talk about problems with the server though

[fair wasp]

In my experience, if someone says something like "I'm needing some quiet, so please don't mind me being antisocial downstairs" or "we are gonna hop downstairs to talk about the newest episode of Fallout, anyone who wants to is welcome to join us" that goes a long way to making things feel less cliquey

[feral flare]

It is genuinely sad that people are reducing this whole thread to being "bad", circular or just refusing to acknowledge that any problem exists. If you genuinely believe that then please go and read the whole suggestion thread. Many valuable things have been said and come of this, not overlooking the frustration that has arisen and come out in a negative way. But to have people say that the thread is useless and should be closed because various people refuse to engage that there is a problem or because some people have gone too far is just silencing a problem that a lot of people have obviously believed has been present for so long to be so frustrated about.

For people calling for this thread to be closed or just go away please see this as an opportunity to step in and make this thread more productive than as an excuse you can use to make something that you don't personally agree with or that you find uncomfortable just go away. That isn't fair to people that don't have the same perspective on events as you.

[quartz vapor]

I am going to be honest. I feel like everyone needs to take a moment and reconsider what has happened. A new player who found this place a good place to share their experience left the server because they felt like their voice did not get heard. I know that a lot of people have different ways to deal with discussing an important problem. But when their way causes negative experiences for others that is the line being crossed.

Stop using this thread to get jabs on people do not like. Stop using this thread to make fun and have fun. People are actually trying to make their voice heard. That is not funny. That is not something to be quenched. If you have a problem you can raise it to any mod team and we will investigate and check on it. But do not try to minimize the other people's experience because you do not agree. This server can not work if we take stuff lightly or if we use every experience as a way to get over someone.

[median atlas]

Oh yeah that is really well articulated I take back what I said about possibly closing it after reading that tbh, especially as much of said negativity did arise off of real server issues related to why we have such a difficult time with new player retention, especially as one left during this chat because her concerns about cliques were ignored

[loud socket]

Thank you for saying this, that whole interaction should be clear proof for everyone that this server does have issues with the way new players get treated

[prime obsidian]

Gave +1 Thanks to @quartz vapor (current: #26 - 1073)

[fair wasp]

It also sets a really bad example that people who disagree with a suggestion made in good faith can just bait people into heated reactions to get any hope of positive change nixed.

I think recent events forcing a lovely new player trying to engage in good faith off the server just shows exactly why we need to talk about things and make improvements.

[olive swift]

My bad, won't disagre again. My b.

[stray egret]

There is nothing wrong with disagreement. We just all have to be respectful of each other, and endeavour to make sure our tone isn't wrong or we are not making the other person feel like their feelings are being dismissed. It's not always easy, but it is what we have to try to do.

[simple tree]

Internet points ain't worth anything.

[olive swift]

Im keeping it 100, ive been watching people in this thread get disrespected a ton. I didn't disrespect them in the slightest. I'm sorry they left, but I guess i misunderstood them. I'm going back to lurking, love you all ❤️

[worthy flicker]

Lets call a spade a spade....
This thread should have been:
HERE IS THE ISSUES GOING ON IN THE SERVER
-What are some ideas to help the situations going on in the server?
-What can we do to have more inclusiveness?
-How can we improve Listening and not Judging others?
-How can we improve Transparency?
-How can we make newer players feel more acclimated to the server?

[lyric oxide]

There were a few subthreads created from this thread, those have been more useful for changes.

[quartz vapor]

I think it is better to stop the discussion here as I do not think the discussion has been in good faith. This does not mean that we do not value feedback from the community. However as things stand the discussion here has been harmful to multiple people in the community. We are working on an alternative way for community to report their concerns to the team. As always if you think there is an investigation that needs to happen due to events happened here open a ticket.