quartz pond
To fix the over talking issues can you please make a "*handup" command that changes the users name to "👋handup 1" or if that is taken "👋handup 2" etc...
Then a "*handdown" command to rename back to original name.
This will allow the ST to better control the conversation with a queue and give players an easier way to speak as a lot of the issues just come from people having lag so starting to speak slightly after another.
Sorry my asterixs turned everything into italics 🤣
winged maple
I like the idea of having an indicator to show the desire to speak, but I feel like this would cause more problems than the current overtalking
placid rampart
Also worth noting that it's easy enough to simulate in clocktower.live by opening a fake nomination on a player and making sure secret vote is off, so players can raise their hand to request to speak
sonic bay
I like the idea of having an indicator to show the desire to speak, but I feel l...
Yeah in all fairness I reckon this might lead to people spamming the command to get into the queue for the sake of it
iron umbra
I like the idea of having an indicator to show the desire to speak, but I feel l...
Anecdotally, the current state of overtalking is pretty bad that I don't see how offering a mechanism to help STs with group management would be worse considering how prevalent overtalking has been an issue playing in this group over the last several months. Personally, I would appreciate having this feature as a ST as a convenience since I can look at the discord call who would like to speak rather than keep track of pings in chat while there's also game-related conversation or bot commands bumping up ST pings/*consult requests.
My initial thoughts are this suggested feature is just the right-level of detail as a bot command for changing player names to grant STs enough flexibility to make judgment calls if they feel players are abusing this queue. A corresponding ST command for this to acknowledge the player's name out of the queue or reset the queue for day-to-day would be my only additions to this particular suggestion.
crisp yarrow
Overtalking will always be an issue when people don't/can't call people out for being rude.
jolly dagger
Overtalking will always be an issue when people don't/can't call people out for ...
This is not the root cause of over talking
Discord is just an inherently flawed system for large group conversations (5 is like the max and that's stretching it)
A system where players raise their hands and are called on one by one is the only solution to over talking on a discord call, but that is frankly ridiculous for all but the worst scenarios. It should definitely be a feature tho
this implementation isnt the best tho
changing a whole name is cumbersome
just a *hand comand to toggle the start of a name containing 👋 would suffice
like
Diego -> 👋Diego
👋Diego: *hand
👋Diego -> Diego
!Diego: *hand
Shadowbot: spectators cannot raise their hands```Until there are mechanisms in place for discord lag/poor connections to be managed then it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume it's an issue with the system. Otherwise you risk people loosing their passion and excitement for the game for fear of being rude - people are excited to solve the games here and that is a good thing that shouldn't be lost.
People should only be called out when there is a clear system in place and they are still over talking.
crisp yarrow
There is a clear system in place, in fact there are three, and all are useless at doing anything now (as in as its occurring). Ticketing doesnt do anything until days/weeks later, Minion/mod escalation is generally impotent unless we're talking actual bigotry etc. and Hells Librarian is not something I've ever actually seen done. I get it, I'm new around here, but sure, lets layer another system on top!
That being said, system seems as useful as *consult, which is certainly part of the woodwork these days and is as good as the storyteller running the game (generally fine).
winged maple
Anecdotally, the current state of overtalking is pretty bad that I don't see how...
I agree it is much worse now than it has been recently, I just really don’t think this will be an easier solution. Happy to trial anything though.
quartz pond
There is a clear system in place, in fact there are three, and all are useless a...
None of those systems actually provide an 'in the moment' method for managing a group of excited people who want to talk.
Plus I'm British I love to form an orderly queue 🙂
supple fern
*stguide
supple fern
^ this is also a resource we've made with suggested strategies to resolve overtalking
More on topic, I think it's a cool idea, but I think the same thing is achieved by folks going "@ st can I have the floor please?"
rain pendant
Wait, 30 seconds only?
I feel like sometimes I talk for 1-2 minutes because I’m about to be executed or stuff, but I try not to overtalk. Is that fine?
supple fern
I feel like sometimes I talk for 1-2 minutes because I’m about to be executed or...
It goes into more detail on that figure in the live game rules, but yeah, 30 seconds per person per day is a fair amount, so if you're frequently doing more than that, you should look at dialling it back. It's not just about overtalk, it's about letting everyone take a fair share of playing the game and not monopolising airtime.
quartz pond
More on topic, I think it's a cool idea, but I think the same thing is achieved ...
I like the strategies you have in place but they aren't working. People still talk over when people have the floor and then all desperately jump in trying to speak as soon as someone stops speaking.
People need to form an orderly queue and learn some patience because when there's a "👋 3" next to their name they know they have a time and place at which they can talk and it's after 2 other people.
supple fern
I like the strategies you have in place but they aren't working. People still ta...
I'm not denying there is a problem with overtalking. That's a fairly new command we've created specifically to address it because it's an issue we have noted.
crisp yarrow
I've reflected on this idea and I'm actually a hard no on this. This is one of those ideas that seems technically right, but actually using it will probably motivate players to set the talking points. Sure loud players can do that now, but they can also be seen as being loud and occupying air time - less visible when it is an ST giving you mandated air time.
jolly dagger
yeah raising a hand is one thing but if youre waiting in line thats not a game thats being brittish, an im no brit
quartz pond
yeah raising a hand is one thing but if youre waiting in line thats not a game t...
Haha 🤣 that actually made me lol. Valid.
There is a sensible reason I suggested numbering. Most of the chats when the groups together are under some sort of timer.
If you don't put the number then either the ST has to remember the order (increases their workload), pick arbitrarily (not much better than it is now) or they have to run down the chat in order of who is in the discord server which would weight the conversation to the people at the top of the alphabet who would speak before the time runs out.
Numbering the queue is the only way to make it a fair system. It allows the ST to keep the game flowing by keeping the clock ticking down whilst keeping it fair.
I am not suggesting that everyone should queue up every single time they want to speak. I think people would naturally use it when things got a bit heated and they felt like they couldn't speak.
The @ ST command is a way to do this but as soon as they finish speaking everyone is jumping in and the more dominant voices end up taking the conversation.
crisp yarrow
To be clear, I don't hate this idea. I dislike the meta it could/would create. I as a player would be motivated to ensure I was first with my hand up because that would give me an uncontested ability to set the agenda for the day. If I am first and I say something that others don't address, that's a free read and free influence.
I don't win as many games as I do with mechanical solves. I don't talk to people in private chats so that's impossible. So I speak with some authority that this would enable a player using the tools I do to be more effective.
quartz pond
I agree with what you are saying that it could create that meta however I don't think the meta you are suggesting is much different to the dominant player just loudly talking over everyone and rebuffing people contesting them by over talking. I actually think it would be better as it would allow people to contest that player without the interruptions and force the controlling player to come up with better arguments instead of relying on their dominance to shut people down.
In my experience, IRL games do not end up in these sort of loud over talking matches because, for the most part, people are polite and when they see someone else wants to speak they let them. This is completely lost in the medium of discord and then that issue is made worse by people having a 5 second delay because lag. This handup suggestion is meant to artificially recreate the visual cue that is lost in discord.
I can see that it could completely disrupt the natural flow of a back and forth conversation which is quite important in a voice based social game so introducing it to the community on the right way would be important. Maybe emphasising it's only to be used when people start to feel frustrated or maybe giving the ST the option to turn it on?
forest willow
As someone who tends to jump in (too) quickly, having the visual queue of multiple people who want to say something would probably give me an extra second to think "Oh right! Let's hold for a bit."
I think it's a good idea. It also doesn't have to be implemented as a straight up queue either. I think if you just have the option to put your hand up, naturally people will give the person the floor. From my experience when people explicitly ask for the floor, players are very open to give it to them, even if the ST doesn't jump in.
This can be done on the grim, and I might test that as a "Hell's Librarian" tactic, but it would be neat to have that option as a command in discord for when the ST hasn't clocked on to overtalking, or when it's just a couple of quieter people who want to use it as a way of getting the floor easily.
winged maple
I think the visual cue is a really good idea. I'm sceptical the suggested implementation is. I'm down to try anything, but I think that visual cues in grim would be better.
crisp yarrow
I think the visual cue is a **really** good idea. I'm sceptical the suggested im...
While you are right, I think that functionality is a no go based on copyright stuff iirc.
winged maple
While you are right, I think that functionality is a no go based on copyright st...
There might be a sufficiently distinct solution but idk. I don't think this would work as a solution but I am very pro giving anything a go as it might just be the thing
coarse swan
I don't think any copyright applies to a hands up signal. It's in so many applications (MS Teams, Zoom, etc) that I don't see a legitimate claim to owning the concept.
I haven't played in a long time, but I always felt it was hard to get a word in sometimes. Everyone jumps to talk all at once. Imo it would make the game more inclusive to the less outspoken people to have such a feature. The ST can choose if they need to step in if people with their hand up haven't gotten a chance to speak.
crisp yarrow
I am talking about clocktower online, the free somewhat blind-eye'd version we use, emulating a feature that the premium option has. Sure such a feature is fairly ubiquitous, and probably wouldn't have actual legal ramifications for implementing, but as a community we have actively made choices to not implement thing out of respect for tpi ip (artwork/unreleased characters being quite big ones). I could see a similar call being made.
placid rampart
From memory, TPI has in the past requested not to replicate features of the official app, so it is something to be wary of
coarse swan
Yeah, but this is a case where I don't think their feature is original in such a way that I'd consider it copying. I thought about this type of feature before ever seeing the official app, I'm sure others had too.
forest willow
If I remember correctly, that feature was implemented when the new app launched, but later removed. I vaguely remember thinking "This is neat".
coarse swan
It wasn't on clocktower.live
There was another fork of online that had a lot of features that was pulled down.
Imo if people have good ideas that aren't unique to botc then we shouldn't be afraid of adding them. It's not like we have a bad relationship with TPI, we can talk it out if they disagree with a decision.
placid rampart
Yes, though it is better to ask permission than seek forgiveness
crisp yarrow
I'd rather not ask and not have the feature on the grim.
winged maple
Someone did that and it was taken down 🙁
onyx lava
