Another attempt at an Atheist script

[granite mulch]

For a long time I have been running through in my mind how one should run an Atheist script. Recently I played a game where on day 1 we pretty much day 1, we had pretty much narrowed it down to a single non-Atheist world. By day 2 only a few of us were willing to consider a non-Atheist world. It did indeed turn out to be an Atheist world. This seems to me to be the epitome of how not to run an Atheist game. Firstly on an Atheist script, Atheist should be a fairly easily bluff. Then the job of the ST is to support that bluff, whilst maintain balance and fairness. From time to time, the ST will need to actually run an Atheist team. In this case the job of the ST is not to create a setup, which impresses themselves with its paradoxicality; rather their job is to frame the appropriate number of players. As these innocent pawns are executed, the frame should be shifted to frame new lambs as the real evil team. Success consists of keeping this going at least until the end game. Maybe then the ST should introduce some flaws into the smooth vaneer of fakery; or maybe the remaining players will simply have built up enough trust amongst themselves that they execute the ST.

So obviously as part of this thought experiment I have made my second attempt at an Atheist script. I went for something that should appear very basic and eschewed the fireworks of Midnight Oasis. There is no Amnesiac; at most 1 death per night; no day protection; no resurection; limited role and alignment changing. I tried to make all the Townsfolk decent evil bluffs and easily frameable as evil, whilst covering all the needs of a Good team. In particular all the Minions are viable as Alchemist powers. After this I fine tuned it to optimize the interesting interactions.

I am proud of the Outsider selection. The Storyteller may have an ally in the Politcian. The Snitch counterbalances the Poppy Grower. The Atheist can't be certain they aren't Drunk, and could be framed as such rather than Evil in an actual Atheist game. The Demon can't be certain they aren't the Lunatic. I could string along a Lunatic in their belief or give them Minions who will quickly reveal to them their true nature. This choice seems particularly useful to me. Over repeat plays I might cook the meta, that an obvious Lunatic means an Atheist game or a Demonic game; and then break that meta.

Feedback would be welcome.

[shadow bear]

I'm unsure about Evil Twin in Atheist.

You already have Scarlet Woman, so ET can go?

[granite mulch]

Could you elaborate what your issue is?

[shadow bear]

I think Evil Twins implies that there cannot be Atheist

You can do whatever you want in Atheist game, but I don't see how you fake twins in Atheist game

Are you gonna have two players that are both Town Crier, wake them and tell that the other one is their Evil Twin?

Seems like there are quite a few characters that aren't that fun to be twinned with

There's quite some characters here that have quite bad interaction with Lil Monsta, where the ST chooses who dies.
Soldier, Monk, Innkeeper, Sage.

[granite mulch]

Yes it works fine. In the game I mentioned this was the situation and the Twins were not the problem per se. The problem was we also needed a Xaan and a Widow and there could only 2 Minions. The only possible world was Demon+Xaan+Widow with the Evil Twins as an amazing bluff.

[granite mulch]

Well in that case I can let the Lunatic decide - at least some of the time.

[shadow bear]

I'd definitely reconsider Lil Monsta here, or replace Soldier/Monk/IK/Sage stuff.

But it's your script

[granite mulch]

Yeah totally not convinced, but thanks for the feedback. If I did ever get to run it, I would totally take feedback from the players on whether it was fun.

[arctic rune]

Gave +1 Thanks to @shadow bear (current: #2129 - 3)

[granite mulch]

If I did Ojo would be an obvious replacement, but as I said I am happy with it for now.

[shadow bear]

If I were storyteller for the evil team with Lil Monsta, I wouldn't be able to fairly sink into IK/Monk etc. So I prefer not to have that interaction

I understand the desire to have more minions, our group often plays 7-9p games and Lord of Typhon is not always desirable

[granite mulch]

I think the general principle is help the underdog. So if Evil was doing well, I might kill a Minion or target a protected player.

[shadow bear]

If you think you're capable. I seriously doubt I would be

[granite mulch]

With Lil' Monsta and Alchemist I really had to have extra Minions.

[granite mulch]

At the moment absolutely not. This is a thought experiment.

[shadow bear]

Makes sense if you want to keep that interaction. I would then replace all four of Monk/IK/Soldier/Sage if I were to make this

[granite mulch]

Also I am not sure if this group wants to see another Atheist script in the near future if at all. I think it was terrible.

[shadow bear]

From what I know, the trick with Atheist is that is should mostly look like an ordinary game of Blood on the Clocktower

[granite mulch]

Out of curiosity what would you replace them with.

Yeah that is what I am aiming for, and where this ST messed up.

[shadow bear]

Shugenja, High Priestess, Savant, Farmer

Are examples I'd consider.

Not specifically those but just to mention some that can be fun and interesting

You MAY pick those, those were just the first 4 I saw that peaked my interest in terms of Atheist and bluffabiliby for evil team

Shugenja in Atheist is so much fun, just arbitrary give a direction and good will go on a goose chase.
High Priestess can be tuned to help good figure out who has information or is on the right track regarding Atheist.
Savant, our beloved..
Farmer is so much fun because you can turn outsiders into Farmers, but in Atheist you can make 2 farmers when first one dies, and good have to figure out if it's true or if one evil is trying to get in on the action.

All of them are also plausible bluffs outside of Atheist

[granite mulch]

Very high ST agency. I was avoiding those as well. Oddly exactly what you were complaining about with Lil' Monsta.

[shadow bear]

It's not the ST agency I'm complaining about

It's the part of being able to determine that it's sensible to sink kills

It's much easier to reason about killing a Farmer with LM than killing a Sage

[granite mulch]

Not bad ideas. Not having actually run it though I wonder about this double role thing. Onbiously the ST can do it in an atheist game, but it is a dead giveaway if the players cotton onto it. I'd rather give them clues a little later.

[granite mulch]

This could be personal preference. But as I said I would welcome feedback from the players. This ST didn't even do that.

[shadow bear]

My group had a game where in final 3 all 3 claimed Farmer, not even Atheist game

[granite mulch]

fair point.

[shadow bear]

It's such an easy way to discredit a Farmer claim, but with Atheist this can actually be true

[granite mulch]

So with Sage my reasoning is that I can easily frame innocent players as the demon.

Also Lil' Monsta helps in an Atheist game because it makes the demon hard to pin down.

Also the protection roles were chosen to fit the basic narrative of no day protection.

I did have Princess instead of Monk for a long time. I am still unsure of the pros and cons of that. Princess is more reliable but only works on day 1. Monk is more hit and miss but works the whole game and counteracts No Dashii.

I also considered Lycanthrope instead of Monk, but actually I did not want the good team influencing night time kills. It just wasn't what I was going for. (Lunatic is an exception obviously.)

But I will keep replacing Sage or Soldier with Farmer in my back pocket.

[rugged crater]

@hollow ibex i think you’d be interested in this

ok i’ll just say now that Poisoner on an Atheist script is a lil rough because ideally you want very tight logic chains

so Arbitrary Poisons whenever make it very hard

[granite mulch]

Now I had the opposite concern that the ST needed flexibility. But I am listening.

[rugged crater]

yeah so the way to get around at requiring flexibility to make atheist bluffable is to have ACTUAL atheist games be somewhat normal

[granite mulch]

Again what I was going for.

[hollow ibex]

Arbitrary poisoning is very tough in Atheist environments because any clues you give can be explained away as arbitrary poisoning

[rugged crater]

^^

[hollow ibex]

Ideally you can make very subtle clues that good takes the entire game to pick up on

(true true Savant info in the world you're framing for example)

[granite mulch]

Okay I know Alchemist-Wraith is not highly regarded, but could replacing Poisoner with Wraith work?

[hollow ibex]

I don't particularly care for Harpy in an Atheist environment. Harpy mad players can't build Atheist worlds

[granite mulch]

Maybe Cerenovus?

[hollow ibex]

you'd likely start running into too little misinformation but no Dashii might clutch it

[hollow ibex]

Cerenovus is fine with Atheist yeah

[rugged crater]

fw i think Anon Dishon has like 0 Evil Misinfo and it’s just Sweetheart and Drunk

[granite mulch]

I think I quite like the Alchemist-Wraith jinx in an Atheist game. Totally meaningless mini-game.

But it gives the good team a little agency in night time kills.

@hollow ibex any thoughts on the concerns @shadow bear raised? Do you dismiss them as casually as I did?

[hollow ibex]

Twins are fine with Atheist

It's weird in person but if you have duplicate tokens you can do it

Online you intrinsically have the ability to give out duplicates in Atheist games, so you can simulate twins very easily

[granite mulch]

The more I think about it, Farmer is a nice subtle idea. Just not sure where I'd put it. Everything currently there is there for a reason.

[shadow bear]

Sage is the "obvious" to replace one trap character with another

That may not be the right choice, but it's the first one that comes to mind

[granite mulch]

Classic case of being there for a reason. I'd probably need more experience (not necessarily on an Atheist script) to update my opinion.

[granite mulch]

I don't know. What have you got against Sage?

[hollow ibex]

Sage likes Vortox or Pukka

[shadow bear]

Sage on SnV is balanced mostly around the fact that it's hard to determine if your information is true or not. Outside of SnV it's really strong.

[hollow ibex]

Fang Gu, Imp, demon mobility, etc

There needs to be enough doubt on the pings for it to feel fair

[shadow bear]

And I'm personally concerned about LM + Sage. Am I really ever gonna let LM kill the Sage? Some ST's may know when and that, but I'd struggle hence why I'm inclined to replace it with a Farmer

It's just the easy choice. It's your script, if you want Sage then keep it

Farmer is also fun with Drunk because you can make Drunk think it became a Farmer

[granite mulch]

Okay I am persuaded enough to make the change.

Sage -> Farmer. I still have Fortune Teller and Village Idiot.

[shadow bear]

What's the idea with having both Monk and Innkeeper?

[granite mulch]

Monk has interesting interactions with No Dashii. As does Soldier. Monk used to be Princess.

[shadow bear]

I meant more that you have two roles that are very similar. Normally you pick one or the other

If you like Monk, maybe you don't need Innkeeper?

[granite mulch]

No I prefer Innkeeper because it adds some drunkenness.

the choice is Monk versus Princess I think.

[shadow bear]

I see. Is Poisoner replaced with Cerenovus now? delta highlighted that arbitrary poisoning is problematic with Atheist (and with MANY scripts in general...)

[granite mulch]

yes

[granite mulch]

Strictly it was Harpy ->Cerenovus and Poisoner -> Wraith.

[shadow bear]

Sure

[granite mulch]

I know Alchemists aren't going to be overjoyed at being shown Wraith. But I think faking the Alchemist-Wraith Jinx would be cool on an Atheist script.

And sometimes it would not be faked.

[granite mulch]

I am thinking that may be since I got rid of Poisoner, No Dashii is working harder. So I should replace Monk with Princess.

[shadow bear]

Assuming Princess is in play and there is night death after they nominate and execute, it seems that it's fails for 3 reasons?
No Dashii, Drunk, or Atheist?

I hear Princess is a difficult Townsfolk to include in scripts

[granite mulch]

I guess so. I think a player would like Princess because they get to do something fairly reliable. Of course it's a great Demon bluff. And if the Politician can get the Princess to nominate and execute the Good Twin.......

[shadow bear]

How would Poli accomplish that

[granite mulch]

Hopefully it would not be easy, or the script would be broken.

[shadow bear]

There's no realistic way you get the Princess to try either twin day one

[granite mulch]

Fair point.

[shadow bear]

And then have town in majority to vote on it as well

[granite mulch]

But a ST can dream.....

[hollow ibex]

it yes, extracting value from Princess well requires particular environments

TPOT & RTC are the places I know Princess works well

[granite mulch]

?

So what are the issues ?

[hollow ibex]

Princess tends to want environments with multiple kills per night potential, but it also does poorly with many of the BMR Demons

because Princess gets more value per stopped kill

Al-Had, Shabaloth, and Yaggababble works very well with Princess

otherwise its a fine character in other environments

[granite mulch]

I think most Monks are over the moon if they prevent 1 kill.

[hollow ibex]

its a tempo control character

[shadow bear]

Monks are often very happy because they usually have found a good player

[hollow ibex]

the princess undeinably provides a benefit to the good team, but Monk's benefit is being a body you need to kill before you can get to who they're protecting

[granite mulch]

So you think Monk works better .

[shadow bear]

Monk on the script gives strong characters incentive to talk open early

[hollow ibex]

Monk works better in most environments

[granite mulch]

Okay Monk back in.

Hypothetically, if I got rid if Innkeeper any suggestions? What am I most lacking? Droisoning actually I think. But info or protection?

[shadow bear]

With Atheist on the script, information might already be untrusted. You may have to replace and playtest

Or just playtest without replacing. You can try some example grims, shuffle up and deal. Look at the board and imagine what would happen

[granite mulch]

Well that's always the fallback plan. Thanks everyone for the feedback .

[arctic rune]

Gave +1 Thanks to @shadow bear (current: #1938 - 4)

[granite mulch]

Hmmm Wraith and Poppy Grower....

[pearl bay]

Let’s see…
I really think marionette is necessary. Every argument you could make for a drunk atheist, would be FAR better in a marionette game where the atheist thinks they’re real while playing for evil

[pearl bay]

I also really think soldier or monk should go, they feel like weak bluffs and weak characters in the context of this script, I don’t see why something stronger wouldn’t replace them

[granite mulch]

I would put Marionette on, but it doesn't fit with Alchemist and Lil' Monsta.

[pearl bay]

It absolutely fits with LM, just not alchemist

I still think it can entirely work

Also boffin is a good shout

[granite mulch]

We talked about that yesterday. Not convinced but open to thinking about it.

[pearl bay]

I think evil twin is funny and could work, but I’d argue marionette or boffin are far more effective

[granite mulch]

I'd rather Alchemist. Alchemist looks evil. Works better on an Atheist script.

[pearl bay]

Think about a soldier. It’s never confirmable, it can be easily punked, you’re never realistically sinking in a LM game unless good is literally on nothing and even then LM skills still should benefit evil

[pearl bay]

It does but so does boffin, there’s a lot of good characters boffin could give, such as drunk, snitch, VI, or even farmer to confirm a star passing imp

Not to mention alchemist boffin is a great interaction

Ie. alch boffin PG

[pearl bay]

Also if you want droison

Replacing monk or soldier with just philo isn’t bad

Acrobat would also be good for athirst

Atheist

Arbitrarily killing it wouldn’t be bad

And finding droison can be powerful

Infact yeah I really like how acrobat looks

It can detect VI drunk, innkeeper drunk, Drunk, and no dashii poison

[granite mulch]

I was restricting to at most 1 night death; no day protection; and no resurrection.

[pearl bay]

That’s fair

[granite mulch]

I admit it is limiting but I was looking for subdued Atheist game.

[pearl bay]

The problem with that is

The less potential explainable chaos

Surprisingly, from experience, the easier it is to detect atheist or non atheist

Something like an acrobat can throw off the whole town on their world, while giving a subtle clue that the ST was never playing by the rules

[granite mulch]

Well fine, but I am only thinking about it for now; so I shall carry on thinking about it.

[pearl bay]

Totally fair, just giving my own suggestions

You shouldn’t limit a script to try and encapsulate one idea

You should be account for the entire premise

Acrobat isn’t just good for atheist; detecting no dashii is great

[granite mulch]

I am considering loosening my restrictions, but I think restrictions can be good. Every wild thing that can happen should not hard confirmable.

[granite mulch]

You have given me a lot to think about and I need some time to digest it. However this statement I think could do with a little justification.

[pearl bay]

Of course

[pearl bay]

I’ve ran a lot of simple scripts and complicated scripts, as well as played in them

Usually the more chaos there is, the less solvability, which means you can’t as easily look at the info you do have and tell more often than not whether it’s an athiest

In a simple script, everything feels “scripted”, routine

So you know you can never rule out athiest because nothing big is happening, but this also means you have your full scale of info to your disposal

There is a limited amount of droison in most simple scripts, so cross referencing info for a couple days is an easy athiest detector

[granite mulch]

This is pretty much the opposite of what @hollow ibex said. Thankfully this script is more of a research project for now.

[granite mulch]

Generally I understand that Atheist game should look like the Atheist is Evil merley bluffing Atheist.

[pearl bay]

Yes and it’s easier to do that in a more complicated/chaotic script

But with so much linear information bluffs can collapse fairly quickly

[hollow ibex]

regarding what, droison?

[granite mulch]

something about confirmation chains

[hollow ibex]

the Atheist provides, if bluffed, alot more breathing room. many towns are willing to believe its Atheist if evil bluffs well, so a good Atheist bluff is -1 day to town's efforts on hunting the Demon

[hollow ibex]

i have not commented about confirmation chains here

so i'm just slightly confused

[granite mulch]

It's hard to find because the old messages just aren't loading for me.

[granite mulch]

This is what I was referring to. @pearl bay seems to be arguing the opposite to me.

[hollow ibex]

ah yes

this is preference I imagine

[granite mulch]

Anyway to avoid the Wraith / Poppy Grower issue I changed Wraith to Ojo. I would rather have more Minions and less Demons, but I am running out of Minions.

[hollow ibex]

in my experiences Atheist works better in calmer environments

heavy social misinfo is fun with Atheist but Atheist is a puzzle character first & foremost, so it likes having that be on full display imo

[granite mulch]

As I see it, the ST needs to be able to keep tweaking the puzzle at least until the end game.

So calm, but with some room to move the goal posts.

[hollow ibex]

this is true but you can either have tight logic chains that tend to be extremely complex (like SnV), or a TB probablistic misinfo landscape that is narrower in scope.

[granite mulch]

To be fair I run my scripts through https://scripts.whydecades.com/, and it has been trying to get me to add Acrobat, Marionette and Boffin for a while.

Another issue I had with Marionette, is that it does not help you convince the Lunatic they are the Demon (except in 1 Minion games). Only Poppy Grower or an actual Team Evil can do that.

[shadow bear]

what the heck is this

Ok so it analyzes the script and gives suggestions. I typically use https://lecodex.github.io/botc-interactions to list things that I might have overlooked. I'll try that site with one of my scripts and see what I think

[granite mulch]

I find the whydecades site easily the most useable of these sites. I treat it like I would a person - I listen to its opinions but I don't regard it as infallible. But it is my first port of call before I show anything to an actual human.