Character interaction thingy

[still sedge]

make the heretic the good twin

this is like

the one solution

alternatively have hermit

because uh

"exe good twin"+heretic=good win

so the race to nom the other twin is peak

source:made this a teensy once

[rose oriole]

evil twin of a heretic means you have to solve the game day 1

[still sedge]

exactly

good teensy

[subtle wolf]

You have two days to solve. The demon has to kill ET and themself

[kind berry]

You can’t win once the demon kills a twin, so the good team has to execufe the heretic on day 1
Assuming that’s the meta, but there might be a better meta for the twins in this situation

[frigid flower]

Saint claim

[still sedge]

Yeah

This is like the only way it’s good for the good team

[subtle wolf]

What about a twins game where heretic is not the good twin?

[kind berry]

Tbf heretic as the good twin implies that good can have a 50% winrate so it's just a bad twin option

[still sedge]

better than the heretic just

killing the good twin and winning

[kind berry]

Idk, but this previous discussion was about heretic being the good twin

[still sedge]

well yes

Because that's like the one way it doesn't explicitly harm evil

evil just knowing about it immediately

[rose oriole]

Heretic means if there’s a twin pair you can afford to just kill the demon

[still sedge]

which is so wildly dumb

[unborn trellis]

But it also means evil win n2 by killing the evil twin

Bc now good cannot win before demon self kill

If heretic is good twin ofc

[wraith parcel]

Bad interaction imo, having town able to force a loss is pretty bad with heretic, heretic as good twin would be a funny teensy but bad otherwise

[short crystal]

04/20 Evil Twin x Boffin

one specific thing i am thinking of is the Boffin bluffing Evil Twin with the ability they know, and since the Demon has that ability they might be able to prove themselves as the "real twin" more easiliy since they actually have that ability

but maybe there's more to this interaction!

[subtle wolf]

If you wake Boffin and demon at the same time to show the townsfolk, they can easily fake a twin pair. Great bluffing space.

[real heron]

Evil win con that good has agency over in heretic is just… not it

[real heron]

I’ve seen someone do Boffin/alch/ET with a lleech (for some reason). And it works, until the demon is dead and then the game ends anyway (ie, this interaction very much doesn’t work)

I’ve not seen it work script wise cause volume discrepancy things, but I think that bluffing a twin pair is something you do in a well-established group regardless

[short crystal]

I can see the volume concern but the other parts I don’t quite get

the idea is that the demon is framed as the good twin and so they don’t get executed in the twin war

I think I’m also not really sure how good of an idea bluffing a twin pair is without that kind of support, without something like snitch/boffin the Demon always has to lead an evil twin bluff bc they’re the one with good bluff characters

[umbral rune]

Do I have to ask about Pukka with Banshee, RK, Sage 1 at a time or can it be 1 post?

[real heron]

My take for all: it depends
Sage is usually worse than Banshee which is usually worse than RK, but eh
Also yeah you’d need to ask about them separately since the RK, Sage, and Banshee function and impact a game very differently

[fringe mirage]

4/21: Mayor x Politician

[subtle wolf]

Ask about one officially, then after discussion, ask how the others would be different

[subtle wolf]

I suspect Politician has trouble pulling off a Mayor bluff because evil will accidentally kill Poli at night or frame them like they frame a real Mayor. Evil would need a grimpeeker to avoid those pitfalls and benefit from Poli bluffing Mayor. But in that case, if Outsider count is ambiguous and outsiders are private, it might be foolish for town to ever go for a Mayor win. There is also the extreme frustration of a Poli throwing off votes in F3 to stop town from tying and going for Mayor win. I am skeptical these characters work together.

The thematic pairing is perfect, though. I would love to see a setting where it works.

[fringe mirage]

Also, if you’re a Storyteller and the Politician successfully convinced the town to Mayor win, they always deserve that win

[wooden knoll]

Poli wins

Well, unless you tell them to execute the mayor

Then poli wins

[forest spindle]

4/22 Washerwoman X Marionette

[chilly cedar]

Pretty cool combo if supported with something like drunk

[forest spindle]

Yes! I wanted to add drunk to the combination if I could. I think its really cool both ways around: mario ww seeing drunk or drunk ww seeing mario as the character the mario thinks they are

[real heron]

That runs into the issue of having drunk and Mario on the same script (which is fine sometimes but can be super odd/bad other times). But yeah I think it’s super neat to have the Mario and drunk combo-ing off each other

[forest spindle]

What issues can occur when pairing the two?

[real heron]

The drunk being perfectly marionetted with no way of knowing they’re actually good, for example

[sudden drift]

Marionette doesn't belong on the same script as Drunk IMO

the value of ST-chosen misinfo cannot both be "one outsider" and "one entire minion who's also guaranteed to neighbor the demon."

WW!Marionette is awkward. You want to use it to make the demon look good, but you don't know what bluff they'll take. So the Mario can spout obviously wrong info.
Also, even if the confirmation works, players squint their eyes at people confirming their neighbor on a Marionette script.

[short crystal]

I like the idea of a Washerwoman confirming their neighbor so that they think they’re a Marionette but that’s a one-off funny and not rly sustainable for script longevity

I think the best use of a washerwoman marionette is confirming a Minion but that’s also slightly awkward with the Minion having to play well for it to not fall apart

[edgy socket]

Really fun on the pieslikes

Less effective on non-pieslikes

[short crystal]

what are pieslikes?

[real heron]

I'm assuming things adjacent to Strings Pulling or Onion Pies or similar

[sudden drift]

Use Spy instead, unless the script can't have a grimpeeker

[chilly cedar]

I don't think Drunk Mario is really an issue

At least, you can definitely build a script where the two work

probably Spy Washerwoman is better, but drunk WW isn't terrible

[wary solstice]

Vortox also works to make this interaction happen

[edgy socket]

Scripts in the "TB variants with Marionette" family

[steady granite]

lots of pieslikes replace washerwoman with pixie

wait no most of them don't

was mistaking the invest -> noble swap

[tawny haven]

onion pies just adds pixie as a 14th tf

[subtle wolf]

Ya cuz the point of Noble is to accuse three people so it replaces Inv perfectly on TB and doesn’t change the script dynamics for the worse /s

[frigid flower]

And ogre

So it isnt called "Pies Baking + Ogre" anymore

[kind berry]

[23/4] Mathematician x Spy

[quartz girder]

math + misreg = joy and fun and whimsy

[subtle wolf]

Requires scripting the Mathematician

[rose oriole]

I think this is an interesting interaction to explore, but I haven’t seen it in practice very often at all (if ever). I find the concept fascinating enough that I recently posted a TF-Demon duo in #homebrew-characters that takes this interaction to its logical extreme.

I also like that the spy can bluff Mathematician easily because they mostly know what abilities are misregging (admittedly, they don’t know if the FT actually chose the Recluse or not).

I also just like having characters that can detect misregistration, as right now misreg can soak up a theoretically infinite amount of info, while droison characters are either space limited (Drunk and Poisoner can only droison one player or one player per night) or time limited (Xaan poisons on one night only). One of my homebrew scripts has 2 characters that directly detect misreg since it is prominent on the script.

[subtle wolf]

FT choosing red herring should not proc Mathematiciaj

[grand token]

math+misreg is kinda yikes. idk if math is really a significant bluff for spy either

i suppose a math+spy misregis an interesting enough solving space

i think theres an issue here where the math's info is never negatively impacted by misreg unlike the other forms of misinfo of droisoning/vortox on its base script so you might struggle to fit in both misreg (spy+recluse) along with sufficient droisoning/misinfo to make the math not op while other roles having a say in the solve ever

math is also really a bit of a nothingburger bluff for spy or the evil team in general

[frigid flower]

What if its the only thing that poisons on script?

Doesnt it point huge arrows to people? I mean its one of my favorite parts of Pearly Gates

[forest spindle]

An Extension Cord interaction!

I think it can work to make spy more solvable, but it requires careful scripting for Math since it needs multiple reasons for abilities working abnormally

[boreal nest]

Math detecting monk protected player surviving

[rose oriole]

04/24: No Dashii x Lleech

Obviously this is a “scripted together” interaction question as they’re not going to both be in play.

[obsidian trout]

Whats what u think pithags a good player into the no dashii

[grand token]

s'aight. anything interesting past the obvious poisoning overlap?

science scripts might benefit from this combo ig

[tawny haven]

Science doesn't pair nicely with either Lleech or Dashii

In practice I think this is a little awkward to script together, since it can feel like Dashii is strictly better than Lleech at helping evil

That being said, Dashii is arguably strictly better than a lot of Demons

You just have to be a little careful about the types of Minions and Outsiders that are onscript

[grand token]

dont you think some level of science is important to make it easier to find the lleech host?

ofc da is like not it

[real heron]

Well if DA is off the board, why have science roles?

[grand token]

but having just inforoles on a lleech script can lead to good struggling to find the lleech host because of the vagueness of poisoned info

i suppose by f3 it should be fine in any normal game

[real heron]

Cause imo unbluffable science roles are just kind of… not fun

[grand token]

you can use lleech to bluff science roles

technically

[wary solstice]

Science refers usually to roles like Sailor, Tea Lady, and Fool, who all encourage the Good Team to throw their own members into execution. A hosted Sailor or Fool can be a death sentence for a Lleech, while Tea Lady produces very awkward scenarios where either they are hosted (and it becomes obvious) or they protect a host (and neither team can win prior to the Tea Lady's death)

[grand token]

shrug

[grand token]

👍

[real heron]

In that situation, it’s more about hiding lleech than actually bluffing a science roles

[grand token]

yeah i mean i think lleech is just hard to make work

i figure lleech on a multidemon could open some potential to bluff science roles, but yea theres alot of objectively poor interactions between hosting/science

maybe host ur minion, lol

idk

[wary solstice]

Lleech works well with the Minuit Engine

[short crystal]

I like Lleech and No Dashii on a poison tracker script

bc if you suspect that someone is poisoned, you can either execute them if you think a Lleech is in play or a neighbor if No Dashii is in play

[wary solstice]

No Dashii seems like it'd be a fine addition to a Minuit Engine script as giving another different reason for misinformation.

Seems like a fine group so far. Lleech causes one poison, No Dashii causes two local poisons, and Vortox makes everyone get falsehoods. Covers a lot of ground alone for misinformation just between these demons, and of course Mastermind paranoia fun if no one dies in the night

[short crystal]

I.e. they script interestingly together from this angle because both are traceable from their poison but each have very different implications, and so worldbuilding the right demon type is important

[wary solstice]

If you wanted Lleech + Science to work potentially, you may have to include Devil's Advocate & Wraith? Since Wraith will see who the Lleech hosts Night 1 and then can point out the host to the DA which can avoid some issues with the main science roles. But that's quite a specific requirement of Minions.

[short crystal]

I think it’s a slight fix but not a full one, bc maybe the science just happens on d2 instead of d1

[wary solstice]

Yeah...

It's an improvement, but would require more script work to maybe properly fix it

[short crystal]

yeee

[grand token]

not a huge fan of lleech-da tho; how'd you think youd make it work?

requiring a 2 minion game for the whole premise of a script isnt rly great either imo

tho ig thats not really tooooo unique with alot of customs

[subtle wolf]

They work on the same script.

As Lleech, I’d leave my host’s neighbors alive to retain ND worlds that account for my host being poisoned. And as ND, I’d benefit from leaving my poisoned neighbors alive and selling Lleech host worlds—though, this is more circumstantial and dangerous, since ND often benefits from killing his neighbors.

[subtle wolf]

04/25: Marionette x Cult Leader

[wary solstice]

Amusingly an Evil Cult Leader could falsely Marionette one of their neighbors... which could be the real Marionette-

Probably not good for that Marionette's sanity, but who ever cared about that.

[subtle wolf]

There are several sources of interaction here: Marionette thinks they’re the Cult Leader; Cult Leader turns evil by Marionette who gives a good social read; Marionette is invested in forming a cult but is unknowingly evil.

[wary solstice]

A Marionette being the Cult Leader can't form a cult unfortunately. So even if they are 'successful' with all Good players voting, nothing happens. This can be fine though if an Evil doesn't vote, as it can make the Marionette-CL look like they're confirming the Evil as a Good player.

-# Preferably an Evil that isn't their Demon in this case, as otherwise the implication is a little more direct-

[short crystal]

that admittedly sounds incredibly niche

although I do like that these two synergize in being very social roles

[tawny haven]

A Marionette (CL) can tend to eat shit and sell out its own Demon by failing to form a cult where every player votes, and given the nature of CL this isn't a particularly rare scenario

[sudden drift]

This is a rare case where the Marionette actually helps evil. Because the fact that the ST gets to choose who the Marionette is, lowers the winrate of "Always go for a CL win on Day 1" below 50%.

But like. This requires scripting a bad character together with a shit character, so it's shit.

[frigid flower]

🫩

[grand token]

about as elegant as scripting cl can get

weakens cl's abilities as a budget empath, and lets an evil cl gaslight their good neighbor if the st cooperates

[frigid flower]

Honestly cult leader its one of the weirdest characters ever

[fervent basalt]

they will never make me hate cult leader

[short crystal]

they will never make me like cult leader …

[subtle wolf]

I’ve never heard of the strat of automatically going for a cult leader win D1. I just ran the numbers and a Cult Leader is more than 50% likely to start the game next to an evil player, at every player count except 9 and 12, which are slightly over. And this doesn’t account for Outsiders like the Recluse.

[still sedge]

Except CL really shouldn’t be evil next to an evil player 100% of the time

It’s a tf

[grand token]

going for cl win 100% of time with no other info is technically optimal WR wise, since its a bit higher than 50% generally that the cl is adjacent to evil, and it would be weird for the cl to always flip evil every time theyre next to an evil

but that doesnt rly account for the fact the social contract of clocktower generally doesnt involve "play for as high of a win rate as possible", it involves "play to win the game youre currently playing". otherwise hard vortox check d1 on snv would probably be considered an actual strategy and not a meme

storytellers will also adapt and build bags to discourage poor behavior such as this, just as a group that wins a couple games off hard vortox check can very much expect a higher rate of vortox bags in the future to not reward such plays a group that goes for every cl claim will likely see more evil cls in the future

[rose oriole]

I know this isn’t the place to say this but I really wish CL only became the alignment if they formed a cult

Actually this has implications for Marionette with the recent push to not lie to people about their alignment — it would be a YBD to ever tell the Mario CL that they switched teams

But just learning an alignment is fine

[grand token]

that would be horrific, since the cl would then just have no clue whatever the hell theyre doing. alignment reading would also become pointless as one of the rare ways to actually get solid info on a cl claim

[rose oriole]

Doesn’t CL already like go after most info roles anyway, so alignment checking the CL is always one night slow?

[grand token]

its still pretty important imo

if the cl reads evil last night they prolly stay evil

[rose oriole]

True

Maybe they register as the alignment idk

But I don’t like that it’s a +1 evil

[grand token]

if they reg as evil and turn evil on cult formation, theyre evil period

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rose oriole]

Well no they still win with good if the Demon is exed

[grand token]

i mean

that just turns cl into budget empath

wait yea

ig they wouldnt know

still, just janky and messy, probably mostly bc its cl

[still sedge]

I like the "the CL turns good if they die"

[fervent basalt]

04/26: Cult Leader x Shabaloth

i think this is one of the better cult leader interactions (along with professor) as it can help avoid the cult leader being locked as evil

[weak ingot]

Cult Leader has a troubling time in being justified on scripts, and my instant thought was “why not Goon? ”

dangerous BMRlikes might have justification for CL in the sense that if it's a Final 5 with suspected minions and shab the CL might win more

actually no that makes no sense

they're more likely to be evil

yeah i don't see it

[fervent basalt]

cult leader works well on bmrlikes imo

the final 5 stuff is probably more pertinent with po rather than shab (for the reasons you said) but it's a good reason to go for a cult win

[subtle wolf]

I wish CL alignment was determined by something in-game, even if it’s probabilistic. The ST choosing CL alignment makes that win or loss feel cheap.

[weak ingot]

left neighbour

[boreal nest]

people in fact do not do this because they want to play the game

[shy ferry]

the one time I played whose cult is it anyway I just nominated myself cause no one was going to join it

[fervent basalt]

i am choosing to tick react my own message here to offset the ❌ reaction

thank you for your understanding

(thinking about it, bmrlikes isn't quite the right word - it doesn't work well on full bmrlikes but there are a number of bmr characters that it does work well with imo)

[subtle wolf]

Why

[fervent basalt]

why do the bmr characters work with it?

or why does it not work on full bmr-likes?

for reference, the reason i don't think it works on full bmr-likes is that it provides hard, albeit wishy-washy, info regarding alignment

the characters i think it works well with include:

• chambermaid: can detect the cult leader flipping, but not necessarily which way, which is quite interesting imo
• gossip: can provide useful info regarding the CL or their neighbours, but not too immediate or clear-cut
• professor: can revive a suspected evil cult leader to potentially turn them good agan
• gambler/pacifist: on the right script, can provide interesting info to inform when to go for a cult win
• lunatic: if the lunatic neighbours the CL but reads socially evil, this works well with lunatic's role as an outsider imo
• DA: in occasional scenarios (such as with vigormortis or po), cult leader can provide an alternate way out for good when the demon is protected on the final day
• mastermind/po: mastermind day/charge paranoia can give a good incentive to go for a cult win late into the game, which is more fun than an early win imo
• shabaloth: similar to professor, can help CL to be more of a townsfolk if it's killed while evil but gets revived and potentially turned back good

[weak ingot]

· i would avoid Chambermaid and CL for exactly this reason, it's another alignment checker on the CL's neighbours. that's much stronger than CL's already strong info, since BMFlikes are already filled with decent alignment info
· Gossip should be doing something else
· but, like, What is the Point for Professor? it's almost always better to do confirmation on a non-CL player due to world removal, and this isn’t guaranteed to work
· i don't get Gambler.
· Pacifist is interesting, but the info is rather wishy-washy, even for Pacifist standards. i would do a Goon here and just always execute CL tbh since the alternative is good win
· sure, lunatic works
· final day is when CL is most likely to be evil, and it's not a guarantee that you know for a fact DA is in play
· sure, those two work
· this is Shab punishment

[fervent basalt]

i don't think it's necessarily fair to say gossip should be doing something else

CM i see where you're coming from but i think it can work well on a cleverly-made script

shab point is fair i think

[still sedge]

I mean if the demon is protected by da in f3

right

the CL is still evil

[still sedge]

ok sure

fine

[rose oriole]

04/27: Xaan x Riot

[still sedge]

depends on riot ruling

when do minions become riot

[rose oriole]

That only matters if it’s a Xaan 3

[still sedge]

... yeah

[rose oriole]

I usually do right when noms open

[still sedge]

xaan 3 shouldn't

not droison

aight ok

I think it's fine

it's a little strong

maybe have 0 other misinfo

[rose oriole]

I mean statistically you’re killing about 1/3 of town’s info

[tame flume]

Woah it's on the script quick maths :0 and it works fine i think

[grand token]

"this must happen" 🔥

thank you steven medway very clear and not vague at all

[still sedge]

That’s to the nom deaths

[grand token]

isnt raw ruling that the minions dont turn riot but the riot still happens bc of this

and that evil loses if the one riot dies

[still sedge]

What??

[grand token]

wait ive lost it sorry

[still sedge]

The riot turn can be n3 or d3

Or literally right before noms

[grand token]

yea uhh

this is a fine interaction right

[still sedge]

what are you talking about hold on

[grand token]

ok ok

ignore my earlier messages

[still sedge]

No no wait what’s the interaction I’m scared

[grand token]

this is what happens when you play horrid scripts bootlegged to shit

[still sedge]

oh

ic

[grand token]

uhh i think its a fine interaction just probably make sure to turn the xaan as noms open so a xaan 3 is solvable

i will say i dont rly love putting such passive minions on a riot script from a gameplay perspective

[real heron]

Xaan is peak puzzle for Riot

That genre of script is just entirely unsupported at the moment though. Not enough quiet minions that genuinely mean anything in a riot environment

I made a (bad) solo-riot midsy that wants to work and it has Xaan on it

And it doesn’t work for other reasons than Xaan

[forest spindle]

You would have to double up on grimpeekers (spy + widow) to make something that works okay

[real heron]

I think widow is technically more fair in riot but I had spy on the script and it worked fine

But yeah, double grimpeeker etc isn’t great at all

[subtle wolf]

What’s the interaction

[frigid flower]

Being both on script

[subtle wolf]

How is it significant

[frigid flower]

Does the good team have the time to figure Xaan out?

If there is one in play

Either way it could be Xaan 1/2/3

So outsider claims scale up and could be faked

[subtle wolf]

That doesn’t seem much different than Xaan in regular 7-9p games, which also last three days. And games with 10-12p usually have the Xaan day early too, lest the Xaan die before poisoning, and because it’s unusual to have 4+ Outsiders in the game

[deep marsh]

Xaan 4 is really funny in Riot

[short crystal]

has anyone ever played with a Xaan 5

[rose oriole]

No but I did have a 7p Xaan 4

[wary solstice]

https://tenor.com/view/dungeon-soup-lich-barbarian-you're-a-monster-gif-13129667852518093297

[rose oriole]

The Amne ability was op though

[boreal nest]

Right before dawn is my rulling

[subtle wolf]

04/28 Lord of Typhon x Evil Twin

I think this is a surprisingly workable pair. Choose someone opposite in the grim for the ET pair, so that any of the four players neighboring twins could be LoT. In 10+ player games, there are even more configurations

LoT and ET both make voting and executing urgent for town. I’m curious if that makes them synergize well or pressure town too much

[boreal nest]

Depends on the townfolk

If info is strong typhoon is cooked

[real heron]

I generally think Typhon likes quiet minions and I haven’t found a reasonable way of scripting Evil Twin

On first glance of what I’d assume their environment to generally feel like, this interaction isn’t great, but it depends on the remainder of the script for sure

[boreal nest]

Tbf, cant they kill into twins neighbours

And if no kill thrn demon dead and this one is evil

[chilly cedar]

Nick you have a unique way at looking at the game. I'm not super convinced on this, but I can give it a shot.

[chilly cedar]

There are some cool things. The evil twin would have received a Townsfolk or Outsider token at the beginning of the game, so they can back out of a twin pair. This is pretty neat! This also can mean twin pairs can be faked easier.
I agree that both characters make executions higher stakes. I think this pairing can lead to some tense games.

The Evil Twin usually doesn't directly lead back to the Demon, while with Lord of Typhon, the evil twin has to be in the line. This might give a lead to good which is very powerful. In a 7-9 player Typhon game, the evil twin neighbours the Typhon. At the very least, good can try and direct their information to figure out whether or not its a Typhon game by checking the twin pair's neighbours.
The Evil Twin works best with Townsfolk which gain information. It doesn't work well with mechanical abilities like Tea Lady, Monk or Pacifist, because they are either impossible for the Twin to fake, or difficult to distinguish. Townsfolk which gain small pieces of information (like Steward) also aren't ideal for Twins, because part of the character is that the evil twin is trying to invent information to blend in, and this creates specific socials. As Evil Twin scripts want Townsfolk which gain a good amount of information, you'd want the evil team to have powerful misinformation to balance this. On Sects and Violets, this comes from the Demons, who can move unpredictibly, poison or turn information false. Lord of Typhon does add an extra evil player, but in a predictable way. The Evil Twin gives good a lead to who a Minion is, and a further lead to the Demon. Without misinformation from the Demon, the Evil Twin can find themselves cornered.
A reasonable idea is to pair Evil Twin with characters like Xaan, Poisoner, Spy or Widow so they can be the misinformation that Typhon needs. That can work, but the script needs to be built carefully.

For Twin to get over the 'little to no misinformation+1 good player knows a lead on a Minion' issue, the Demon line up likely needs to add misinformation in some way, or to generally be mobile. (No Dashii, Lil' Monsta, Fang Gu, Vortox...) If you are already adding some misinformation Minions to help out the Lord of Typhon, then you need to be careful to not make the other Demon+minion combinations too droison heavy.
Another thing is more to do with Lord of Typhon. The evil team need to work together in a Typhon game. If they act too socially off, because they are so near each other, it can be pretty obvious. Evil Twin adds some extra work to members of a Typhon line. It's workable, but not very easy. Compare this to SnV, where the evil twin doesn't directly lead back to the locations of the entire evil team, and it's clear the Evil Twin has a stronger detriment in Typhon than other Demons.
Evil Twin also rules out several Typhon lines which could be framed from existing. There will be players in a Typhon Evil Twin game who are 'out of range' from both Evil Twins, and therefore cannot be in a Typhon line. That does not mean they are good, but it does diminish some of the Typhon paranoia. As long as you have several of the 'confirmed not Typhon' players alive, you are unlikely to have a TPK

[weak ingot]

Let’s kill into 57% of the town

I don’t think it’s just a matter of “We should kill into neighbours” because that just doesn’t work

ideally you build this with like, idfk, baby?

[short crystal]

the more concerning part here is that the Mayor is confirmed by virtue of ET

[weak ingot]

mayor isn’t confirmed

[short crystal]

or well I guess not confirmed, but a lot less likely to be evil

[weak ingot]

they’re knight ping IFF typhon

it’s not that bad

[short crystal]

I think it needs really careful scripting

preferably Mayor shouldn’t be there

[weak ingot]

i mean, everything does lmao

but yeah i just took china shop and added a twin

it’s not gonna work out

Most Confirmed Widow

[forest spindle]

I think the interaction needs some tries in practice I have no strong opinions on it

[subtle wolf]

I was just complimented by Shakespeare!

[fervent basalt]

and here i was thinking shakespeare was busy writing hamlet II: yorick's revenge

[subtle wolf]

I don’t have much to add. I think all of y’all’s comments have been insightful and this pair would need playtesting to discern.

[fringe mirage]

As Hystrex puts it “This is a Demon that pisses itself and dies if anyone figures out in play”

As such, the rest of the Minions better be whisper quiet for this

But you could do stuff

[subtle wolf]

Perhaps Scarlet Woman, Xaan, Spy, Evil Twin

[weak ingot]

i’m thinking that the alternative Demons are equally important when scripting this

FWIW “needs scriptbuilding” is nothing of a comment because every evil team interaction needs good scriptbuilding

(?)

i'll have a non-11:40 PM think about it tomorrow

it's a good interaction to bring up really gets the gears going

[chilly cedar]

clearly

[weak ingot]

assumedly as a rule of thumb you should make twins far, far away from each other

[fervent basalt]

there is a scale i think though of 'if you aren't careful you can screw this interaction up' to 'this only works if the script is made really cleverly'

and i suspect typhon/evil twin falls on the right-hand side of that

[weak ingot]

most things are on the right

i mean, botc only has so many characters. sometimes i just dredge through the list of townsfolk when i'm done with the rest and knock out anything particularly bad

the remains can practically get you 80% of the way there

like in this hypothetical script i wouldn't put in more confirmation characters than necessary

[subtle wolf]

Boffin is another reason for twins to be fake. Does LoT help evil bluff twins? Or is it clearly fake because the minion is always first to accuse, since LoT doesn’t know the good character?

[short crystal]

my boffin evil twin post coming back 😈

[shadow cradle]

If you put the twins far apart though you also confirm that the twins are real (assuming it’s LoT). If you put them side by side it leaves 2 or 3 demon candidates if the twins are real but the twins might then also just be a bluff

[short crystal]

why would putting the twins far apart confirm they're real?

oh you mean. specifically LoT

that's fine honestly

[rose oriole]

I mean if other demons are on script (as they should be) then they can fake twin pairs

[subtle wolf]

Even in a LoT game, you don't necessarily have to put twins on opposite sides of the grim. If there are other demons on script, putting the twins one or two steps apart still gives two or three LoT candidates, which could be enough given infoscape and other demon worlds.

Wait... twins sitting two steps apart only gives two Typhon candidates. The player between the twins is cleared from being Typhon

[weak ingot]

yeah

so ig put twins decently far enough so that doesn't happen

[subtle wolf]

Apologies if someone else wanted it today... I will stop posting after this

04/29: Fang Gu x Hatter

In base-0 Outsider games where Fang Gu is likely the reason for a Hatter in play, the Hatter can't nerf the Fang Gu by offering themself D1. The Fang Gu would just switch to another demon

Also interesting:
(1) The Fang Gu jumps to another Outsider, and the new Fang Gu kills the Hatter; evil benefits massively from this sequence since they reap all the benefits of FG plus another demon
(2) Under what circumstances does another demon want to become a Fang Gu? Does it depend on base Outsider count and O-mod? What does this mean for the Hatter's strategy?

[still sedge]

I mean this interaction is abysmal with Typhon because

+2 extra evils

[jaunty tapir]

I will say, unrelated to the actual prompt: I find this demon suite very cool, and is on a script I've mostly finished but have not finalized/sent out. Variable outsider count and +1 minion is almost the default, so lil monsta can bluff outsider and kazali can bluff an extra minion ability in play at pretty much no downside

[real heron]

It's also bad cause you have to script LoT + Hatter

[subtle wolf]

Seems like a fringe case. Fang Gu / Hatter is never forced to exist with Typhon

[subtle wolf]

Fang Gu bluffing Hatter after jumping is another fun interaction

[still sedge]

Needs other outsider mod tho

Because like

“Huh there’s +2 outsiders”

“The first one didn’t die…..”

[subtle wolf]

I don’t get it

[still sedge]

It outs them as evil unless a very specific person is the demon

Unless there are other o-mod sources

[tawny haven]

I do think that this is an interaction that tends to get flattened by the community a bit - a lot of newbie Demons will auto-hatter into Fang Gu because they're swayed by the siren song of an extra evil and then lose because all the Outsiders are sus

That being said a jumped Fang Gu who gets to proc a Hatter is getting the best of both worlds, though things have to go exactly right for this (and it won't happen in base 0 if the FG is the only thing adding an Outsider)

It also helps temper the Hatter's tendency to get themselves killed D1 to mitigate their downside, since it encourages the Hatter to play for evil in case they get jumped.

Overall, see FG/Barber on S&V. It's much the same

[rose oriole]

04/30: Gossip x Ojo

[cinder shell]

bad

catastrophically bad

the gossip never knows when they are right because the ojo just misses

same as Gossip-Yag

[subtle wolf]

Ojo can deliberately attack an out-of-play character so the Storyteller kills two players, resembling an extra death by Gossip kill. The fake Gossip kill could back up evil’s Gossip bluff or reinforce a false statement made by the real Gossip.

That last bit is unfortunate, because it means the real Gossip is seriously weakened by Ojo, and should probably just use their ability to sort through non-Ojo worlds, hoping an Ojo isn’t around.

Ojo also disrupts one of my favorite aspects of the Gossip. When several goodies bluff Gossip early in the game, they might bait a demon kill by Gossiping something particularly helpful to the solve. For a thoughtful demon, the strength of various Gossip statements from goodies is one more consideration for the kill choice. Ojo doesn’t allow that: they either attack the Gossip character (not knowing which player it is) or they don’t.

[late ingot]

I like this interaction well enough! The Gossip is, on its homescript, paired with some pretty heavy killcount variability. I think Ojo (the way I typically run it and see it run) hits a reasonable level of Gossip obfuscation for a Demon.

[short crystal]

I think for Ojo to be be reasonable Gossip obfuscation, players need to be able to deduce with relative accuracy which deaths could or could not have been caused by an aimed Ojo vs an ST Ojo kill

which is probably feasible? but if players can’t do this well, then it does feel very mean to Gossip

[real heron]

Yeah agreed pretty much directly

[chilly cedar]

Depends on what else is on script but yeah this is good IMO

[forest spindle]

I think it is very reliant on how the storyteller communicates how they ST Ojo. If you do a double-kill for an Ojo once per game its fine. If an ST is super unreliant on their ojo-miss policy gets unsolveable and Gossip turns useless

[kind berry]

Why is this a problem with ojo and not with assassin?

People say that ojo is weak, yet people still think ojo misses should be punished, and that any interaction the ojo gets helping their team is a bad interaction

[still pasture]

I think the point that's being made here is more that theoretically any number of kills on any night can be Ojo kills, so on any given night there's no guaranteed way to know if a kill came from the Gossip ability
Assassin does also obfuscate Gossip, but it's a maximum of one extra kill per game, so it's less damaging to the Gossip's info essentially (if there's two nights with "too many deaths" sans Gossip and Assassin, only one of them can be Assassin versus all of them potentially being Ojo)

[kind berry]

Ojo isn't a 2kpn character, i think people should assume that ojo will only make a multikill once, or twice if evil is in bad form/bluffing gossip

[cinder shell]

because assassin is OPG

and that’s the whole ability

[late ingot]

Yeah, I think an otherwise weaker demon should be allowed to have the a weaker version of the assassin's ability as its upside

[frigid flower]

Almost the same as Yaggabable Gossip, but yeah this got more control over and its more ST focused.

[tawny haven]

I've shifted on this a bit as I've played with it - the "kill the Gossip early to subvert players doing gossip cover" is a genuinely cool bit. The death mod is something I've wavered on -- yes, you should be using the Ojo as a multikilling Demon on a Gossip script, and in practice when I've run the interaction it's been fine and fun! The nature of the Ojo also means that it can sometimes be real obvious when it's an Ojo game, because the Poppy Grower died N2. However, the deathmod being ST-controlled isn't the best? It can be rough for a Gossip to puzzle through that.

However, I maintain that this is much, much better than Gossip with Yaggababble. The difference between this and Gossip/Yaggababble is that the Ojo is really only multikilling once, maybe twice in a big game - the Yaggababble can be expected to multikill every single night. One is a minor disruption a la Assassin; one ruins the entire Gossip's ability to determine if their statement did anything.

[late ingot]

your yags are getting kills? dot meme

[tawny haven]

Like, if your Yaggababbles are getting one kill a night and a doublekill once per game, then we have fundamentally different groups

[late ingot]

yeah I've seen Yag/Gossip discussions that went on for like 300 messages before this point was even brought up lmaoo

[edgy socket]

Clearly yag is a 0kpn demon

then again, ojo in that group is probably also a 0kpn demon

[late ingot]

I did once run a 17-player game where the Yag got 1 kill all game

Evil won on Final 3 and the game only lasted ~80 minutes

[tawny haven]

wasn't this also Storyteller's Waste of Time

I feel like that's a relevant part of the story you're omitting

[late ingot]

yes!

I kept a timer running and reset it whenever someone overtalked. The highest it ever got was 53 seconds iirc

[grand token]

i disagree; while the potential for an ojo stopping a gossip day 1 is high, if they want, it also makes an ojo game pretty obvious. ojo should also only really multi kill once or maybe twice a game, so it shouldnt generally be too hard to solve for ojo vs gossip kills especially in late game when dead players can claim and its pretty obvious whether they couldve been actually targeted by an ojo

if the ojo intentionally just full misses, effectively begging me as an st for two kills with no other legwork, you should also be quite hesitant about actually granting it; unless they bluff a role like gossip/gamba or do some actual legwork i wouldnt probably allow ta multikill, or i would do 2 kills that arent ideal for the evil team

[shy ferry]

Not as controversial as Gossip Yag but ojo-miss is arbitrary

@chilly cedar @tawny haven under what circumstances would you say this combo is workable ? I do see ojo bypassing the "I will gossip" is part of its strength but also a giveaway somewhat that it's an Ojo

[grand token]

sniping the gossip day 1 is ostensibly also a pretty poor play on most bmrlikes since theres often higher prio targets, gossip can always be fake, and it quite gives away an ojo game

leaving the gossip alive for 1-2 nights isnt really a huge deal

usually

[shy ferry]

there's always the chance that sometimes they just got lucky, it's happened to me as juggler before

also tbh I've heard gossip + yaggababble is akin to drunk/red herring in tb, as in it's a good interaction because it means you have more solving/social reads to do

[boreal nest]

I feel like yag kills should be more evil sided and gossip kills more good sided

Like yeah abilities help their respective teams

[still sedge]

Gossip is a downside

Goodsided gossip kills=frames

[grand token]

both kills should be to preserve the gamestate

[shy ferry]

uhh, I'd rlly only use gossip kills to hit evil players if it's late game?

[still sedge]

Ehhhh

Why the hell is the gossip gossiping late game

Let’s be honest here

The kills are a downside

[shy ferry]

because they're a risk taker? Not that I'd ever do that as a gossip.

[still sedge]

It’s just a bad play?

Like

By rewarding that it will just cause people to make that decision more

[shy ferry]

i ve never seen a gossip keep gossiping late game personally so I have no first han experience

[tawny haven]

The Drunk and Red Herring are solvable elements — the Yaggababble confounding the Gossip's potential kills is not

Unless you have perfect recall of everything that was said in a game, you simply aren't going to count how many times the Yaggababble said their phrase in a day from a player seat

[still sedge]

or if you did....

you have the demon

like

[wary solstice]

And in environments where you do have perfect recall (text), it's frowned upon to actually use it.

[real heron]

My take: make the Ojo miss double kill an OPG too

Future misses can all be single kills

[unborn trellis]

It’s kinda feels bad but not op

[grand token]

ojo being able to even multikill is an interpretation of the ability text and writing it in would like triple its length

also ojo being able to double kill is fine its already pretty weak

ojo isnt as bad as yagga, you can go off who bluffed/claimed what to track kills too (this is admittedly difficult but any skilled and experienced group should be capable)

ex. if the spent professor+suspicious unclaimed moonchild died during the night its very likely that it was an ojo miss

or, if the ww+sailor roleswap, and the washerwoman still ends up dying during the night

[still sedge]

is the prof outed

[grand token]

yes

spent prof would have to try to not be outed

maybe they could bluff shabaloth

[still sedge]

because I was gonna say (is that even a bad kill)

[still sedge]

not with 1kpn or the average prof d1 rez

[grand token]

an unspent professor is a phenomenal kill

[grand token]

im joking son

hard bluffing shabaloth as the good professor is crazy tech tho

[still sedge]

I thought you meant the evil team

[fringe mirage]

5/1: Mayor x Harpy

[grand token]

does mayor need a harder time winning?

[still sedge]

I mean

making the mayor harpy mad in f3 is uh

definitely a choice

[subtle wolf]

Ngl, I think nearly perfect recall is feasible if you know it’s a Yagga script. Depends heavily on the group, though

You could at least flag repeated phrases starting D2

[subtle wolf]

A Mayor made Harpy mad going into F3 knows two evils were alive in F4; waking in F3, the Mayor is either alive with exactly Harpy and demon or the Harpy was killed at night. If the Mayor is Harpy-mad about a dead player, they can still build worlds that advocate for a Mayor win. If Mayor is Harpy-mad about a living player, they can say “I am confident X is evil for such and such reasons, but I’m unsure whether he’s the demon or a minion for Y (the third living player). Therefore, let’s just go for a Mayor win.”

Another F4 play is for Harpy to make a living goodie (say, the Chef) target the living Mayor, then for the demon to kill Harpy. From the Chef’s POV, a Harpy may be alive in F3 and forcing sus on himself or his demon, diabolical situations both. Town will have to work harder to tie the vote and go for a Mayor win if Chef votes with evil. These situations are tricky but surmountable

[fringe mirage]

Honestly, I didn’t even think about Harpy Mayor Demon F3s when I suggested this

But tbh, it’s not a huge deal. Just harpy mad yourself or make a dead player mad at a living one or something

[subtle wolf]

Surely the ST should never allow a Harpy die to their ability in F3, right?

[fringe mirage]

I was more thinking “have fun forcing the Mayor to obey madness and give cover to try to execute them”

[fringe mirage]

Oh sure, but the goal is to convince the Mayor to not do a Mayor win

[subtle wolf]

Harpy gives evil support to execute a Mayor who might win in F3

[tawny haven]

There's the niche thing of "Harpy-kill at night and bounce off the Mayor" but it's not particularly useful other than on deathmod scripts, where you'd typically have trouble fitting a Mayor anyway due to a lack of a confirmed final 3

[shy ferry]

May 2: Dreamer + Lord of Typhon

seems good because you can just be like "durr I spun around and picked Billy Bob Joe" but also seems to be abusable where they all just pick people across or some crap

[wary solstice]

A Dreamer that sees a LoT has a lot of information there. If they're sober, the player they checked is either the LoT and the Dreamer has just a few specific possible combinations of players who could be the full Evil Team, or the player is Good which eliminates their neighbors from being the LoT as well.

Consequently, seeing a Demon eliminates a number of LoT worlds, since the neighbors can't be the LoT either.

[shy ferry]

if LoT was paired with scarlet woman, would this change your reply?

or am I not supposed to ask about this in this thread

[wary solstice]

Focusing on the interaction of these two characters and adding SW, I don't think it changes the concern. If Dreamer sees a Demon, it still eliminates LoT worlds because that player isn't a Minion.

[shy ferry]

mhm

in dreamer games in general if someone is seen as "this good char or a Demon" do they tend to get executed soon?

[wary solstice]

Not to my recollection, no, but I may be entirely missing the actual landscape of play patterns.

[shy ferry]

on Prester John btw how do you find dreamer to be, I have heard you can be kinda buzzkilly with dreamer + yag

just a side note

[wary solstice]

From other people's play experience, I haven't heard anything negative yet regarding Dreamer. I've yet to have the chance to run it myself in longtext, but may run Prester John soon.

[boreal nest]

Lot needs other demons on script i feel like

[chilly cedar]

Sure

Quilava was specifically saying the good neighbours are cleared from being Lord of Typhon rather than cleared of being the Demon

You are correct that with other demons on script, this issue can be mitigated. There is an extra layer though that if you dream a good player as lord of Typhon, then a neighbour as a different demon, you confirm the 1st player as good

I don't think that's a huge issue

A good interaction people haven't mentioned yet is that lord of Typhon is a transformation effect

Minions who are dreamt N1 have a free bluff which they can comfortably claim and be "confirmed" by

It avoids N1 dreamer snipes on bluffless minions

[shy ferry]

I mean, yeah?

one LoT is hard confirmed it starts to become very tough for evil team

[grand token]

i like this; similar to mario, it protects minions from snipes, as long as the storyteller cooperates and they bluff their pulled token

[shy ferry]

I had a game I blanked the fuck out and said "Drunk or Minion" in a gf/balloonist script

dreamer tries to meta me

it worked

it didn't matter they got doubleclaimed anyway (gambler with a real gambler)

anyway I'm thinking of telling minions in dreamer games to tell me a good character to show N1

[late ingot]

5/3: Snitch x Fang Gu

I like the Snitch more than most do at a baseline, and I think the Fang Gu is one of several characters that makes it more interesting. For players who enjoy catching the jump, this gives the Snitch more to do than "out on Day one and shrug." (For players who do not want the jump, this does the opposite.)

When both are in play, Minions will have an easier time sussing out who might be an Outsider lying, which can help with coordination!

[short crystal]

oh yeah it's an interesting use of it

i sadly dont think it's enough to make snitch fully engaging tbh, but it's def better than baseline snitch

[boreal nest]

makes snitch not out it

good

[forest spindle]

Makes Snitch less flat to play

[boreal nest]

snitch works best in combination with fang gu or like a godfather

and a good reason why minions need those additional bluffs

so it ahs impact

[forest spindle]

yea like lil'monsta or poppygrower

[boreal nest]

yep

[subtle wolf]

The Fang Gu makes Outsiders more complex to play, even when they’re bland. Snitch is still a bottom-tier Outsider because all the better Outsiders are also improved by Fang Gu.

That being said, Fang Gu and Snitch can actually synergize. Suppose the script’s positive o-mod comes from Fang Gu and Balloonist; in a 10p game, minions receive three bluffs: Balloonist, Noble, Oracle. The minions know their demon is a Fang Gu, one minion bluffs Noble with their soon-to-jump demon in the info, and the other verifies the jump with Oracle.

The Snitch knows they’re either in-game from Fang Gu or Balloonist; Snitch can safely come out to a minion bluffing Balloonist, allowing evils to coordinate the jump without the obvious play of Fang Gu bluffing Balloonist to cover their own o-mod.

See also: minions learning Alchemist, Town Crier

[chilly cedar]

I feel you have overlooked a small thing

The Snitch knows they are in game from a fang Gu or balloonist

However, on this script you're talking about, you have overlooked the fact that both Fang Gu and Balloonist can be in play

So the Snitch cannot safely come out to a Balloonist

Because they can just be the real balloonist who happens to be in a Fang Gu game. With this fact, the coordination becomes less likely to happen

[subtle wolf]

ur mom, haha amiright?

[shy ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/clash-royale-clash-royale-emote-gif-23858585

[weak ingot]

I'd like this next one

[steady kernel]

It’s perfectly adequate since like others have said, it makes being Snitch a little more interesting

Though something small I have noticed in some of my games is that since snitched Minions are less likely to get into double claims, it can make a jumped-to Outsider in a double claim stand out more versus if there’s like three pairs of double claims. Not necessarily a bad thing, since Minions aren’t forced to use their bluffs, and there should be a nice variety of reasons why double claims happen on a script, but nevertheless it can make one of Fang Gu’s weaknesses more pronounced

[weak ingot]

5/4: Tor – Toymaker

this isn't the sort of interaction people expect in Cit, but as one of the local “Lorics suck so much” people (i made a copypasta about it) this is genuinely the only way i can see Tor being even remotely palatable

the bypass in question is Toymaker saying that the evil team gets normal info, which overrides Tor's terrible baseline screw-basic-game-design concept as everyone gets to know their alignment instead. this could cause some interesting misinformation ideas for roles that learn similar things, and it's not really all that different from base clocktower. either way it's probably still burnt AF but i think it makes an interesting niche for a not-good canon character

yes this means you can script butler tor

that's my two cents at least

[grand token]

tor is one of the best lorics though?

just script around having characters that do/receive interesting info with the main puzzle being parsing what your ability is doing/what your info means

toymaker removes one of the main actually interesting parts of tor being that you arent aware of your alignment

[still sedge]

Solving your tor role is fun

Also yes butler on tor scripts is good actually fight me

not lying on tor scripts is a good thing

[grand token]

butler is phenomenal on tor because its a blank token that chooses every night

obviously, the butler is not obligated to vote only with their master, because of the nature of tor

you can bootleg it if the obvious implied ruling doesnt satisfy you

obviously if you huck tor into snv or something its gonna be absolutely horrific, but thats not the point of tor or most lorics. they shine when a script is built around them

[still sedge]

The “people who wake each night can only vote if their master votes” is fine

[grand token]

i think that has alot of implications especially once you have ysks/day one info and every day 1 role also has to vote with their master day 1, also its pretty easy to solve that ur not the butler, etc.... better to just have it be a blank token that doesnt know what they actually do. it perfectly fits the role of an outsider on a tor script as is

ive had a game where a tor butler convinced themselves they were the pukka

[still sedge]

Well I say this because I want the vote patterns to help solve how many wakers/non wakers there are

[jaunty tapir]

lowkey I'd kinda like to see this on a script, particularly deathmod could be interesting b/c the demon already has to sink once. By itself, it doesn't really have any identity but like it's not fundamentally bad or good in my opinion. Lots of non-waking TF could make science very interesting (executing neighbors to see if you're a tea lady, perchance? And science/DA/BMR in general really rewards evil team coordination)

But, to be honest, tor could just not be for you. I'm not super confident in this band-aid of a fix standing up to the pressure you want to put on it

[still sedge]

Science tor is not good

[grand token]

i mean its a fun idea, but it also has a lot of implications for the script, and i dont think it'd be fun if you already knew with certainty you werent the butler

its not necessary

[still sedge]

Or do you

[grand token]

true

18 butlers update

[still sedge]

Pope

The answer is pope

Oh yeah I have a pope script

[grand token]

evil butler

[subtle wolf]

This seems like striving to fix something that doesn’t benefit us. I’d rather just ignore Tor in my BOTC play. Can I see an example of a good Tor script, and/or a good Tor/Toymaker script?

[tulip sage]

what's the copypasta

[weak ingot]

good is very debatable but the idea is here, just replace all the science with other stuff

Tor/Toymaker mostly offsets issues with Tor but it's decently tough to scriptbuild

[cinder shell]

Balloonist is crazy weak here, I’d probably cut the pair

[grand token]

not by me

[subtle wolf]

How does Tor work with these good characters? Why is it fun or engaging?

[subtle wolf]

Same question for this script

I’m open to my mind being changed, but Tor was a gimmick for a popular early BOTC script that should never have been made official

The idea of not knowing my character seemed appealing for one game of Blind Man’s Bluff and never again

[grand token]

if you wake every night and choose every night, you might be the pukka, butler, sailor, monk, poisoner, da, witch, etc.

if you wake every night but first and choose, you can be imp, monk, or lycan, and theres ambiguity between these because theyre all scripted.

when you learn numbers on the first night, you might either be the chef, clockmaker, math, or empath, and if you wake the second night its math/empath.

etc, etc. functional ambiguity between roles through alignments means that winning relies on deducing what your actual role is through the effect you and other players have on the game, and how your ability is affected by others

[subtle wolf]

Yea, how is that appealing

[grand token]

cause its fun to have such a unique solve distinct from normal botc strategy

[subtle wolf]

Right, it’s appealing because it’s a variation on a far superior game mode

It doesn’t positively enhance BOTC

[grand token]

right and theres no reason to play anything but tb/bad moon

so?

[subtle wolf]

That’s not remotely the same thing

[grand token]

same reductive argument

[subtle wolf]

Reductive is the right word for what you just did lmao

[grand token]

its a nuanced and interesting challenge that is very much as fun as normal clocktower

[grand token]

mhm

hey its fine if you dont enjoy tor

[subtle wolf]

I’m well aware

[grand token]

doesnt mean your pov is correct or objective

[subtle wolf]

I never said my personal preference made it correct or objective, I’m engaging about it

[grand token]

sticking to base 3 is probably also objectively the best way for an actually balanced and well rounded clocktower experience

[subtle wolf]

The fact you think that’s a respectable analogy to Tor tells me I should stop engaging in this conversation

[grand token]

implying base clocktower is inherently somehow more superior than tor inherently shows you feel objectivity

¯_(ツ)_/¯

youre not fostering productive subjective discussion by just saying "this sucks and is worse than base" then leaving

[magic ferry]

I am Tor's strongest soldier

announcing the Atheist as the Vizier and then killing them going into like final 5 so they learn they are the Atheist and must convince town to pivot is peak clocktower

[wary solstice]

Are you sure? How do you know you're the Soldier?

[subtle wolf]

05/05: Storm Catcher x Assassin

There is no official ruling on whether an Assassin can kill a stormcaught player, though I personally think the Assassin ability should override everything RAW.

Under what circumstances is it fun to rule the Assassin can kill? Does it make the game more strategically interesting or complex? Are there scenarios where Assassin would ruin Storm Catcher?

[weak ingot]

since the evil team all but knows the Stormcaught player, the Assassin usually just passes right through them. of course, this doesn’t work on common-Storm’d King, but King doesn’t work with Assassin very well anyway.

on the contrary to most opinions i’ve seen, i think Assassin and Storm Catcher is a perfectly fine interaction if you build around it

the main bit about it is that i also think Storm Catcher is usually at its most interesting when favouring not-on-night-death Outsiders

which generally Assassin doesn’t want to kill anyway

additionally, Stormcaught claims dying at night are:

Assassin killed
not the Stormcaught player

this actually decreases potential worlds for the evil team, as the assassin is in fact a minion that can be easily solved for this way

so in general it’s not actually a good idea to assassin kill the stormcaught character

good assassin scripts have it confounded and more or less silent

Assassin revealing the evil team’s cards early like this isn’t great for them, so the issue people keep talking about with this interaction i don’t think exists at all if you’re a good player

of course, if the stormcaught is super powerful there’s mild reason to go for it

but i don’t really enjoy stormcatching OP info roles because it centres the game a bit too much around their information

[wary solstice]

I am currently working on a script this this interaction in mind.

One interesting scenario with this is with Pope (or Village Idiot). If you start as the stormcaught character but you die at night anyway, you immediately know there is someone out there who is the same character as you and is the real stormcaught. As only one of the players with the character is actually protected by the Storm Catcher.

However, Assassin allows throwing a wrench into this logic, since if Assassin can murder the stormcaught, you now have to consider if you were the stormcaught and just assassinated.

[weak ingot]

good comment

i’m not really a fan of Pope but i can see how this works well with VI

[subtle wolf]

I think that’s great analysis and I agree with most of it.

Which townsfolk do you consider OP info roles that are too elite to storm-catch? A third option for Storm Catcher, besides OP info and Outsiders, is average townsfolk that play differently when stormcaught. Alchemist, Alsaahir, and Amnesiac are all cool stormcaught in the right context, and that’s just the As… consider Seamstress, Fisherman, even something mild like Town Crier.

[subtle wolf]

Right on. I think the pair works best when taking out the townie is a legitimate strategic option, which requires the trade-off of confirming Assassin worlds.

Maybe if Drunk is also on script, so the stormcaught townie has another reason for dying at night, it would be easier on the evil team

[weak ingot]

Storm Catcher generally plays friendly with plenty of the Townsfolk, but I consider a lot of the higher-end SNV characters to be significantly game-centering, like Savant, Flowergirl, and Oracle

Seamstress and Town Crier, like you said, are perfectly fine

it's harder to consider a high misinformation script with Storm Catcher to pair with a higher-information character, because loads of the ways you traditionally offset strong information is pretty rough with Storm. for example, Pit-Hag can just change the Storm’d player out of their caught role.

Poisoner can just poison the caught, Cerenovus can just lock them after day 1, etc.

[subtle wolf]

I think Cerenovus works but that’s another discussion

So your overall point is that Storm Catcher works best with Outsiders or townies that don’t dominate the game, and neither of those categories is worth an Assassin’s blade?

[weak ingot]

in essence, yeah

this is a common interaction for people to complain about, but in general there aren't many issues with it for the average clocktower role

there might be more interesting ideas with it, like say, stormcaught hatter— but that's very assassin-on-your-team-sided

[subtle wolf]

Well if Assassin basically never targets the stormcaught player, it’s also not a positively good interaction

[weak ingot]

yeah

it's not really negative, but i also don't see how it's all that positive until someone comes along with a good idea for it, like the storm’d VI quilava brought up

[subtle wolf]

Pope, VI, Drunk, Assassin are all reasons for a player to die when they think they’re stormcaught. They could also be an evil lying

[weak ingot]

yup! the more the merrier on a script with that stuff

also, Storm Catcher also isn't a negative night death modification role despite saying so on the tin, because no one actually kills into a player that is obviously unkillable, so it's not like it's even vaguely related to assassin deathmod

[subtle wolf]

What about stormcaught Tea Lady on a script with Assassin and DA?

[weak ingot]

Stormcaught Tea Lady sounds strange, but I can see it work

there's not really a way to bluff failed TL science though, Pukka acts super weird with Storm Catcher so you'd need something else

[subtle wolf]

Pukka/Storm Catcher strikes me as a brilliant combo

[weak ingot]

it'd definitely be interesting

leads to no deaths n2 having more weight than usual

[subtle wolf]

Or any peaceful night following stormcaught player learning something or testing (Tea Lady)

…actually, the peaceful night would come a full night later

[subtle wolf]

This is really cool. As I pointed out in convo w Coda, being the Drunk is another death explanation for someone who thinks they’re stormcaught.

[pseudo eagle]

this interaction (storm catcher + pope) is incredibly fun but I hesitated to add assassin to my script with them as I thought perhaps that'd create too much confusion but this convo is making me reconsider

[shy ferry]

in this thread do we generally only want to talk about the initially suggested character interaction of the day?

[subtle wolf]

Yes, but often that interaction depends on other characters to work or fail, and it makes sense to expand to discuss those too

[tawny haven]

Shrug? If I'm scripting these together it's for the deathmod, not to kill the Stormcaught character -- it's script support for the rest of the script because I've put BMR-like elements on there.

There's something there with SC + Drunk + Assassin though that's fun

[frigid flower]

05/06: Knaves x Duchess

[kind berry]

😭

[frigid flower]

Kinda going hand in hand in Leviathan Knaves scripts i wonder how does it feel on a normal script, or what do you guys think of it.

[frigid flower]

What

[kind berry]

I'm pretty sure it's gonna be a blank token unless all people agree to ask the same ST

[frigid flower]

Are you sure? I have heard it is peak

[wraith parcel]

Duchess info isn't affected by knaves iirc - knaves only affects info from your own ability

[frigid flower]

Lying

[wraith parcel]

If duchess is affected by knaves I think it's little weird - I do like the idea of combining the extra misinfo from knaves with the extra info from duchess to balance each other out

[kind berry]

Duchess is a character

[grand token]

RAW, duchess is not influenced by knaves

[tawny haven]

I'm pretty sure it is affected (see above almanac screenshot)

Duchess info is already decently weak; having it on a Knaves script can feel a little bad

[subtle wolf]

Wouldn’t the right Knaves ST give all three players true info?

[kind berry]

Ok nvm then it looks very fun

[subtle wolf]

I don’t think the pair works.

The reason Duchess gives one visiting player false information is to give evils cover when lying about their Duchess info. If the Duchess info is reported 0 0 1, the true number could be a one or zero. If Duchess had no false info, you would never hear 0 0 1. You would hear either all zeros, all ones, or all twos, because evil is exposed reporting anything else. And all of those sets crush evil in worldbuilding.

Knaves forces one ST to give true info to all three players (as above) and the other to lie to all three, which is also easy to interpret. The puzzle of which ST tells the truth doesn’t change much. Many bits of regular info implicated by Knaves can be used to send a certain set of players to a certain ST for Duchess info and build worlds. This interaction is extremely good-sided.

[frigid flower]

Good sided for a limites amount of time

Knaves by nature its evil sided so it

[grand token]

knaves is so evil sided that duchess can serve as a decent counterbalance

[tawny haven]

I know bhamber has a script featuring both and people who've played it felt it was kinda soupy

[sudden drift]

"soupy"?

[steel kestrel]

had*, it's dead i killed it

[frigid flower]

Too much info but still balanced

[frigid flower]

Wut

Wut

[steel kestrel]

just play angel's heaven by delta, it's better

[frigid flower]

Okay

[frigid flower]

I am correct? I not quite sure thou

[frigid flower]

And what if we bootleg it to do the opposite? Normal duchess true ST, Rever Duchess if false ST

[pseudo eagle]

is anyone allowed to post an interaction for the day or is there a queue?

[fringe mirage]

No queues, just politeness and vibes

[wary solstice]

And if you violate the politeness and fail the vibe check, your knee caps will be broken.

[pseudo eagle]

05/07: Storm Catcher x Pope

[wary solstice]

Hey wait a sec-

[pseudo eagle]

the main idea is that, like village idiot, you can have multiple of the storm caught character but only one of those players is storm caught

[pseudo eagle]

haha I've been working on this since pope came out so I wanted to hear more opinions on the interaction itself and not just my script

personally from my games this has been wildly fun when combined with the drunk too, as players that die in the night begin to doubt their information

[wary solstice]

Main interaction is the consequence of the two together if multiple people are the character that is stormcaught. Only one is actually protected by the Storm Catcher, and so if any of them die in a way that isn't by execution they immediately know someone else out there is the same character and is the real stormcaught.

There's of course interesting ways to play around with this idea to make that logic no longer 100% effective, such as via Assassin, Drunk, Marionette (and with Plague Doctor).

[subtle wolf]

How does Plague Doctor factor in?

[wary solstice]

Plague Doctor with the Marionette jinx. If, by chance, the stormcaught character is next to the Demon they could be turned into the Marionette and no longer enjoy the protection.

[pseudo eagle]

if, by chance, the marionette thinks they're the storm caught character but it's actually another player with the same character you could coordinate with an assassin to kill the real storm caught player and leave your marionette alive leading town to believe they're the real storm caught one

which I understand is convoluted but I did manage to get this to happen once and it was fantastic

[rose oriole]

2026-05-08 Lleech x Fiddler

[obsidian trout]

I forget does fiddler kill people

[still sedge]

no

[obsidian trout]

Well an outed lleech just loses a fiddle so

[still sedge]

have we considered bootlegging the host to be "the demon" and the Lleech chooses for them

[obsidian trout]

Yeah I mean thats how I would do it

Lleech picks 2 people and goes which one is my host

[tawny haven]

Confusing when it's not a Lleech game ime

I've run Fiddlers on lleech scripts and tbh I think you really only have to bootleg it if it's outed Lleech

otherwise it's just confusing for everyone involved

[real heron]

I think that’s part of Coda’s custom jinx set and I think it’s quite neat

Otherwise, RAW feels odd

[subtle wolf]

What’s the interaction

Bootleg if Lleech was found with certainty (ie, executed w/o other exe survival on script)

Or don’t use Fiddler at all, because good team finding Lleech midgame puts them at a huge advantage, and they should have more than a 50% chance of winning

Alternate game ender: Doomsayer, and say evil wins if demon still alive at end of day. Good players will strike down each other or themselves, whittle it down to a F3, and take their chances

[tawny haven]

The way I tend to bootleg the interaction is as follows:

If the Lleech has survived execution this game, the fiddle contest is between their host and a living good player of their choice. If the hosted player is chosen to win, evil wins; otherwise, good wins.

It's not perfect, but sometimes you need a Fiddler to end the game early (eg someone has to leave early without warning)

[rose oriole]

I assume the host registers as evil to the fiddle contest?

[tawny haven]

Not necessary with this wording of the bootleg, since the other party must be good

but yeah, that's a way of phrasing it

The thing is Lleeches do sometimes host Minions

[rose oriole]

isn't fiddler "choose whose team wins"?

[tawny haven]

ah, right, ofc

yeah the host registers as evil to that

added a second sentence to the bootleg that should remove the need for misregistration in the wording? some players can find that confusing

[winter bobcat]

[5/09]: Lunatic x Monk

[tawny haven]

Theoretically a way to keep the Lunatic fooled longer, in practice I've never seen it happen

[still sedge]

Isn't the main lunatic fool strat just "don't out you're not a minion"

which like

this isn't

[winter bobcat]

q1 can "safe" hide the looney's picks?

q2 can it help sell a looney in a deathmoddy script (see po charge)

q3 do they interact at all being pretty early chooses, all told

q4 is the interaction generally consistent/stable or is it fairly dependent on the surrounding environment?

[tawny haven]

Definitely not; it's the Lunatic's ability and not the Demon's

outside of that I just don't really think they interact much at all

[subtle wolf]

Give Lunatic the Monk as a minion; Monk reveals truth to Lunatic; Lunatic publicly acts deceived so demon will follow their kills; Lunatic and Monk coordinate on night choices; demon is monkblocked

Generally the characters work fine together and don't interact much. Fine on the same script

[rose oriole]

I remember someone ran a game with an ability "The Demon thinks the Monk is the Lunatic"

[wary solstice]

That's slightly mean but hilarious.

Then again, if the Demon figures it out, then this just becomes a downside.

[rose oriole]

Not a downside if they've lost 3 kills already

[rose oriole]

2026-05-10 Legion x Widow

Another script only interaction. I think Widow is my favorite way to add misinfo to a Legion script.

[frigid flower]

I do wish for a "balanced poisoner" that actually doesnt see the damn grim

[winter bobcat]

cool boffin though

[tawny haven]

Legion like claiming Widow pings! Good interaction

It also means the player who actually got the Widow ping isn't Legion in any actual worlds with a Widow, which is fun for town to start their worldbuilding from, and influences who you give it to as an ST.

[still sedge]

I am designated legion guy and I agree with this message

Great interaction

Legion having to bluff? Peak

[forest spindle]

A '"loud" minion that actually works with Legion

[boreal nest]

Harpy does too

Any loud minion that doesnt have a mechanical/st confirmation

Basically does

So cerenovus, harpy, evil twin actually

[wooden knoll]

I have funny interaction lol but I'll save for.tomorrow

[tawny haven]

Cerenovus isn't great since a Cere break confirms non-Legion

Harpy works since you can harpy-kill at night

[subtle wolf]

I’m having trouble understanding this. In any world with a Widow, nobody is Legion, not just the player who received a Widow ping, right?

[tawny haven]

I could've been more clear - if you can confirm the player with the Widow ping is good, you know it's not a Legion game. If it's a Legion game, the player with the Widow ping is always Legion, and their info is always made-up. The main point I'm trying to make is that it's a useful jumping-off point when worldbuilding while playing.

[chilly cedar]

Another angle is that the player who got the Widow ping is incentivised to prove it is not a Legion game, which gives them a new way of talking to town in general

[subtle wolf]

Makes sense, thank you!

[neon storm]

Gave +1 Thanks to @tawny haven (current: #1 - 3650)

[chilly cedar]

In short, the two characters have very interesting interactios

[late ingot]

big fan of this one

[subtle wolf]

Throw in Poppy Grower. A Legion claiming to see Widow ping becomes a contact point for all legions, if they can keep it on the downlow. But goodies can bluff seeing widow ping and bluff approaching the widow ping claim as another legion. I’m not sure how any of this would work out

[fervent basalt]

could be fun

[tawny haven]

That does mean you have to script Widow/PG, though

I prefer Twins for this dynamic with PG

[still sedge]

Just votefail intentionally

[real heron]

Sameeee

[still sedge]

and make cere breaks happen end of day(use the better legion ruling)

[tawny haven]

It doesn't help unless the Cerenovus-mad player was nominated earlier in the day + got min

[still sedge]

Evil can back into this

[tawny haven]

In my (frankly extensive) experience Cere breaks tend to not be that

so you just end up with it being deconfirmed Legion if the cere wants their target to explode, or the Cere being really sad if they want to keep Legion alive

Harpy is better on both of these fronts because Legion can actually mimic a madness break having consequences

downside being that a lot of the characters that synergize well with Harpy (mechanical evil pings) tend to be a little wonky at best in Legion

[rose oriole]

2026-05-11: Legion x No Dashii

Another option for misinfo that can’t exist in a Legion game.

[real heron]

I haven't really thought about scripting Legion that much but I can see this as an interesting thing to do from a scripting sense. I'm curious to see what other people think

[shy ferry]

seems mildly like Typhon + No Dashii to me wheree you have to figure out "is that info poisoned or just evil players doing their thing"

[real heron]

Kind of? Though I think that this interaction is much more legion-centric than the typhon/no dashii is on typhon

I think that comes mostly from legion scripts innately centering around legion, but yeah

[shy ferry]

I mean legion flips the entire sdg concept on its head? Informed Majority vs uninformed minority

[still sedge]

It’s alright I guess

[subtle wolf]

I don’t understand how they interact

Legion interacts with most characters by pretending they might be in play; for example, Legions can fake ND worlds with seemingly poisoned info and sussing neighbors. I don’t see how ND is unique in this

[frigid flower]

Its harder to frame i guess

Its not as oppresive as like No Dashi Lord Of Typhon thou

[shy ferry]

how is no dashii + lot oppressive

[tawny haven]

ND tends to thrive on high-info puzzles, which is a script genre Legion can go on, I guess? It's a bit tricky for Legion to frame a coherent Dashii world unless they're super coordinated, but it's definitely a thing they can do

[tawny haven]

Roundabout is notable for not being a No Dashii script

[edgy socket]

it's probably the reference case for "high-info Legion puzzle" though

[tawny haven]

probably yeah

[rose oriole]

Basically what I’ve been going for with these last two interactions is “how do you script Legion with misinfo that only exists in non-Legion worlds?”

[grand token]

i prefer legion to fake networks of mechanical trust over faking info worlds gameplay wise tbh

feel like its more intriguing that way and easier for players who arent like incredibly highly experienced but want to pull off somewhat sophisticated bluffs

[frigid flower]

Oppresive for the evil team

[shy ferry]

in typhon's case idk uhh hide the line 💀

[winter bobcat]

Is that not just all evil sided misinfo?

[rose oriole]

yeah

[grand token]

feel like typhon ND is the better version of this

[subtle wolf]

05/12/26: Storm Catcher x Pixie

Under what circumstances would you show a Pixie the Townsfolk that is stormcaught?

[winter bobcat]

Oh my thought was you were asking about scotting the pixie

[subtle wolf]

Both

[quartz girder]

pixie becomes washerwoman in this scenario but it plays better with misinfo, especially vortox since evil team can reliably play into the fake confirmation

[winter bobcat]

It also adds to someone pushing for the scot players execution

[subtle wolf]

Multiple minions can claim the stormcaught Townsfolk openly, not needing a bluff from their demon, and then back into Pixie

[quartz girder]

imo if you see the stormcaught char as pixie you just out pixie right away. you're not saving the ability from night death or anything

unless its a stormcaught ysk script???

[subtle wolf]

What if the stormcaught role is Seamstress?

[quartz girder]

or opg yea. i never see that kind of role as stormcaught but that could work

[subtle wolf]

Stormcaught Pixie alerts evils to the Pixie N1, and they can listen for what Pixie claims then triple claim the Townsfolk

If Pixie is stormcaught but out of play, minions can bluff literally anything, back into Pixie if double claimed, and then plead to survive

[late ingot]

Yeah, I like this quite a bit

[forest spindle]

05/13 Heretic X Mastermind

[subtle wolf]

On a Mastermind day, town always wins by executing a Heretic claim.

The difficulty is determining whether the Heretic should come out, because it may be a sunken kill or another reason for a peaceful night.

[fervent basalt]

i quite like this interaction, my inclination is that i prefer it to heretic + sw

alch-mastermind with heretic is also quite interesting (without using the jinx)

[still sedge]

I hate it because the heretic literally never has to out

“Oh no the demon will get exed oh NO”

we love coinflips here

[short crystal]

I don’t really see what you mean there

can you elaborate?

[still sedge]

If good doesn’t lose killing the demon in heretic

The heretic really doesn’t have to warn anyone

[fervent basalt]

the mastermind isn't always in play though

• if good execute an evil on the mastermind day they still lose

[still sedge]

If it’s a mm day the heretic outs and gets exed

[short crystal]

i mean yes but you can't know its a mm day

[still sedge]

If the MM actually has script support heretic is probably even worse

[real heron]

Heretic with win condition characters is just… don’t

[fervent basalt]

how so?

[real heron]

Mastermind likes a minuit or deathmod environment and heretic doesn’t like either

[wary solstice]

I could see Mastermind, Al-Had, and Heretic together? It'd warp the thinking on the Al-Had + Mastermind jinx, since if Good suspects the Al-Had was executed and this is a Heretic game, they all have to choose Live instead of any of them choosing Die.

[kind berry]

I had this reflexion too, but can heretic really work on scripts with multikills where final 4 can be the final day?

[real heron]

I don’t see why not

[kind berry]

Final 4 can be final day, yet you can't out heretic because the demon can self kill

[real heron]

That’s fair

[fervent basalt]

surely then you just need to avoid killing the demon + convince the evil team that you aren't the heretic

[still sedge]

Hard to do without socially outing heretic

[subtle wolf]

Reading this thread, I don't understand the universal disapproval of RK/Vortox. Ravenkeeper learning false info could blend into non-Vortox worlds or make abundantly clear that it's a Vortox game, which is useful on a script where Vortox is harder to detect than on SNV. This reminds me of the wide disapproval of Pukka/Farmer, which is a great pair for a similar reason.

[tawny haven]

The thing is that the RK can solo solve Vortox by picking themselves

[subtle wolf]

What a cool use of the RK ability!

What if the script has other sources of misinfo, such as from demons, and reasons for evil players to die at night and bluff RK? Vortox's home script has both of those

[wary solstice]

A number of characters can solo solve Vortox too though. On SnV, Artist & Juggler can do it. So using the one chance for RK to use their ability to just check themself is a choice but not certainly overwhelming?

[frigid flower]

Legiooooooon

[subtle wolf]

05/14: Farmer x Ravenkeeper

[late ingot]

I usually try not to load up on bait roles, but I think these can go together with the right support

[subtle wolf]

I'm interested in how well multiple demonsbanes synergize. Farmer/RK is the one I care about most but also Farmer/Sage, Banshee/RK, etc

[subtle wolf]

What kind of support would they need?

[late ingot]

hmmm, I'd basically want to ensure that either the roles are frameable (moreso than they are by default) or that Evil has other ways to mitigate the increased chance of hitting a demonsbane

huh, search results on here are pretty evenly split between "demonbane" and "demonsbane"

[fringe mirage]

something like this actually has a really positive interaction with Paradox and Bhamber's homebrew Minion Pharaoh

ability is

On your 1st night, choose if the highest or lowest alive Townsfolk by script order is poisoned. You know their character.

and that works well with multiple bait roles

because it can skip over or make it so that evil still has to worry about the bait role thats higher on the script

[late ingot]

TB loads up on roles that don't mind bluffing to bait a kill, but Evil can poison-kill or frame all of the RK/Mayor/Soldier pretty readily while the Imp can always bluff Ravenkeeper on a starpass

[fringe mirage]

officail wise, it works on stuff too im sure, but i dont care to think in detail

[frigid flower]

Hannah might have a nice word on this @small quest but i think they are not available to tell you the whys

[coral jungle]

Oh good morning, how long have I been asleep?

[still sedge]

Most scripts are easier to solve for vortox IMO "oh damn my WW ping is false"

[coral jungle]

I remember I vaguely tried to make a script which averted this. Unfortunately I then fell asleep. How long have I been asleep?

[still sedge]

I think there's like 2 vortox checkers on mine

and even then

there's still a pithag

[coral jungle]

I mean, legion throws the whole vortox thing for a loop...

[still sedge]

eh, legion shouldn't require vortox legion 50/50s

the 2 vortox checkers get a different result pattern in legion

[small quest]

a good demonbane on script gives tools to evil for dealing with them while they're either dead or alive

on tb, it gives evils tools to frame demon banes by making it nearly impossible to fully clear players by the end of the game. The script does the heavy lifting here

And then while dead, spy, poisoner, and drunks presence all help a ton, because even if you successfully get a read off, maybe they're the spy, you're poisoned, or maybe that player is no longer the baron, and could now be the imp, etc.

I think people undervalue demonbanes on scripts but also they are kind of hard to get a fun balance of

Farmer is super strong IMO and usually requires a lot of script support, people put it on too many scripts

Because you need to be able to actually kill the farmer as evil, if farmer generates enough social trust then you are just screwed. It's soldier on steroids since you actively are fine with dying or with surviving

Sage I hate pretty much always unless it's with vortox, I've just never found sage on customs really interesting

Banshee is honestly a character I don't have enough experience with to say super firmly on

I think when you get into the realm of multiple demon banes, which I think I usually prefer 2 on scripts, you just have to keep all these considerations together & then also make sure they don't step on eachothers toes

Like RK and Sage IMO are two demonbanes I don't think work together at all. One wants vortox for balance, and the other wants to be able to get concrete information from their death

I think farmer/RK work great, they have similar enough spaces as demonsbane where you are fine with dying, but are also (If you understand the character's depths well enough) are also fine with staying alive and being a threat. I think spy pairs great with both of them, since spy both flags them while seeing the grim (Which doesn't make them useless, not how clocktower works), and can also break up their confirmation inherently. Cerenovus pairs well with a lot of the "Die -> something happens" bait since you can do really cool plays. And then SW also works nicely because it lets evil bluff both of those roles, and in the case of the RK, have an escape hatch when it fails.

Farmer does need a more firm hand on balance though, farmer is reaaaallly strong and RK just does not match. But in the scope of customs I think that disparity is absolutely fine though

[small quest]

hope this is what you intended 😎

[frigid flower]

Exactly!

[real heron]

They both say ‘if you die at night’ so they generally both like a similar environment (as opposed to banshee or sage)

[subtle wolf]

This testifies to the endless sea of bad scripts, not to Vortox in itself

[subtle wolf]

Do you think Farmer's excess strength is mitigated by (1) evil players feigning a Farmer chain and (2) the capacity for evils to double or triple claim a new Farmer after killing the living Farmer?

[small quest]

Yeah those are the biggest weaknesses for farmer, especially late. You can kill a trusted farmer going into final 3. the issue is still that it still generates a ton of socials and often still solves much

Evils do not bluff farmer chains generally, but also they can be really hard to bluff and make seem realistic tbh

I think if people are willing to play around farmer and their chains it becomes more tempered

also on the ST balance it by making "powerful" townsfolk the farmer

[subtle wolf]

Hmm, I wonder why they’re difficult to bluff. Is it mostly a social thing

[grand token]

actual confirmed farmer in play implicates ur whole team

farmer and rk have an intriguing dichotomy, rk is one of the roles that cares the least about establishing trust. they really just wanna do whatever to die as late as possible imo, and ensure they dont get tapped by poisoner too. once ur info is out its gonna be very useful regardless as something that is either true false or youre lying. this is an interesting contrast to farmer where its all about establishing social trust early and creating networks

[still sedge]

“Not SNV” tends to just have non-info roles or info like that

[unborn trellis]

Bc you need to kill an evil at night

[fervent basalt]

[15/5] Heretic x Boomdandy

• boomdandy explosion gives town less time to decide who the right kill is
• if evil suspects there's a heretic, they may want to avoid executing the boomdandy so the demon can self-kill?
• good environment for an alch-boomdandy if that's also on the script imo

[sudden drift]

Don't love it in 1 minion games. After a Boomdandy explosion, evil can't bluff Heretic. May become more interesting with ||Blacksmith|| (speculated/unreleased character).

[coral jungle]

This is a funny interaction, but I feel like goblin does this but infinitely better, no?

[fervent basalt]

goblin works very differently on a heretic script (to boomdandy)

[subtle wolf]

I agree

[winter bobcat]

Gives town more agency this way

[subtle wolf]

Heretic has strong synergy with all intense characters (win conditions, Boomdandy, etc). Whether those synergies are good or bad largely depends on what you think of Heretic in the first place.

[fervent basalt]

i don't think goblin vs boomdandy is as pertinent a comparison on heretic scripts personally

[steady granite]

i think this is fine, there isn’t much time anyway and early game boomdandy explosions tend to be random finger pointing

[subtle wolf]

05/16 Wraith x Goon

[obsidian trout]

Because of how goon works they are evil when they wake up so you have to wake the wraith up

Which can be useful to coordinate with the goon if they want to play for evil but also bad if they out you if they want to play for good

[fringe mirage]

Wrong date

[subtle wolf]

Fixed thx

[neon storm]

Gave +1 Thanks to @fringe mirage (current: #21 - 1360)

[subtle wolf]

Wraith is always woken before other evils, so he has the choice to sleep again and remain anonymous to the Goon

[subtle wolf]

I love how Wraith can coordinate evils to turn the Goon or lock him in as evil by killing. I love that Wraith can bluff Goon unusually well, knowing when they’re chosen at night by good players, and able to mislead town with a late-game ‘good Goon’ claim. And yes, the Wraith can risk making direct contact with the Goon at night.

Wraith identifying a Goon and making contact as a fellow evil opens a late-game strategy. If the demon, Wraith and Goon are all alive with just a few players alive, the demon can target Goon, effectively sinking a kill, but gaining a third living evil, to push for a win with only evils alive.

Wraith plays into that with his increased knowledge of living players and his ability to make contact with the evil Goon, who will be instructed to avoid nominating the demon or voting for evil players

[fringe mirage]

It also helps that a Goon script wants choosing Minions and Wraith needs those too

[frigid flower]

Not the best wraith interaction

[unborn trellis]

Wraith cannot choose goon tho

Sad

[shy ferry]

05/17: Dreamer x yaggababble : is this an unfun combination?

Quillava's Gossip/Yag has the combo, Axo has posted script of the day with it. Obviously, there'd be boffin/spidow so the character itself is bluffable, but the question is ultimately about player experience imo.

[unborn trellis]

I mean not rlly

Dreamer still sees other players to be yagga

If they’d like to give up most if not all other social engagement to track each word that each person they saw as yagga says

I’ll let them have it

[subtle wolf]

How do these characters relate

[shy ferry]

if dreamer sees someone as "yaggababble", they can ask them to like only speak at certain times or whatnot

[unborn trellis]

I mean that can be done regardless of dreamer

So I don’t particularly care

[still sedge]

I mean it makes the yag shut up Strat viable

[subtle wolf]

Yag is basically an illegitimate character to me because that strategy makes it impotent. I suppose most groups wouldn’t enforce speech codes on yagga scripts but might enforce something if seen by Dreamer; in that case, this is a practically negative interaction. But it’s not one I care much about because I would never build a yagga script or voluntarily play one.

[grand token]

yaggababble always has this issue and dreamer doesnt really make it any worse

i still dont rly see any real synergy positive or negative

gagging either every yagga dreamer ping or every single player isnt far apart in how banned of a strategy it should be

[still sedge]

I don’t think stopping literally everyone is viable

Because like the ST is just going to make the phrase a gesture

But stopping the only possible yag candidates is fair

[forest spindle]

Group dependent i think

[wooden knoll]

Idk I like talking so like

[wooden knoll]

I don't think it would have worked anyway 💀

[subtle wolf]

Everyone sit still

[shy ferry]

I have done that

the guy had to say a 1/2 word phrase but it wouldn't count unless he moved his body visibly around

[still sedge]

How do you win if you can’t nominate?

[winter bobcat]

Skill issue

Just convince the demon to hard heretic check

[still sedge]

Without talking or gestures?

Yeah uh

That doesn’t work

[winter bobcat]

Just stare em down

[still sedge]

Says nothing

Also it’s literally yaggababble

They don’t even choose kills

[winter bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/no-samueljackson-stare-gif-10537769

[still sedge]

(Worst case scenario ST can just fiddle or boomdandy it like)

[winter bobcat]

You can’t point bc it might be the yaggababble gesture

[still sedge]

Games already gonna end

[real heron]

When a mechanics-based character has social implications or lowers evil agency, I generally think it can be messy and group-dependent (and in this case can be quite crippling)

[subtle wolf]

You generally sit still, not turn into a stone. Any gesture the ST gives the Yagga will be noticeable. Also, giving a gesture does not meet the character text.

[still sedge]

Yes giving a gesture isn’t the character text but realistically rules as intended exists

[subtle wolf]

Give an example gesture that would effectively counter the meta of players being straightforward with their speech and body movements

[still sedge]

Pointing

any

Pointing

[subtle wolf]

Okay, we sus people who point and restrict pointing, because there’s no reason for people to point, at least not more than once or twice a game

[still sedge]

Guess no nominating

[subtle wolf]

You don’t have to point to nominate someone

[still sedge]

How else do you mark them

You aren’t speaking

[subtle wolf]

I never said nobody is speaking

[still sedge]

Alternatively the phrase is “I”

The letter

Any time the letter I is used you get kills

[subtle wolf]

That’s undetectable, as “I” is used in the basic game mechanics when nominating

[still sedge]

Play stupid games win stupid prizes? That’s the point

You literally can’t play the game without it

Hell I might even make it “E”

[subtle wolf]

That’s not a counterexample to my strategy against Yaggababble

[still sedge]

Or fuck it

[subtle wolf]

You would need an example phrase that can be somewhat hidden and somewhat detectable—in the gray area—even after town is being minimal with their speech and body movements

Not only that, you would need a whole range of such phrases, since one phrase only works for one game

[still sedge]

If town is going to pull shit like that I might make the “phrase” the act of breathing

[subtle wolf]

You’re demonstrating that yagga encourages the ST to punish town, because the character doesn’t allow the ST to make the yagga phrase slightly more difficult to detect

[still sedge]

The phrase in this case has to be a letter

1 letter

Or core game mechanics

[subtle wolf]

And those are unfair to the good team

[still sedge]

Not really

It’s about the same kpn

[subtle wolf]

Then the spirit of the Yagga is lost, becoming a generic demon where town discussion no longer factors in to the puzzle

The ST choosing a phrase is not a natural in-game response to the strategy I proposed, it’s a game design alteration from on high

[still sedge]

Because town already fucked that over

[subtle wolf]

I understand

[still sedge]

I mean realistically I think this is problem with solo yag

[subtle wolf]

Town still strategically benefitted from minimizing speech and movement

[still sedge]

Due to this strategy being genuinely horrible to good with other demon types

[green fiber]

yeah but is it fun lol

[sudden drift]

The times when I've played with Yaggababble, everyone agreed we should not be allowed to use "I said nothing that could plausibly be a Yaggababble phrase" as a defense. Which rules out strategies like staying silent for a day.

[subtle wolf]

No, its not fun at all. Don’t make or use characters that divorce strategy from fun

[still sedge]

It is genuinely debilitating to town to minimize speech... it's arguably not worth it

unless of course, the demon can never kill again

[green fiber]

agreed

[fringe mirage]

5/18: Empath x Ogre

[wary solstice]

One of the amusing few reasons for an Empath number to go up without either neighbor dying.

[wary solstice]

There is a way, by the way, to discourage the 'Shut up Yagga' strategy.

If town uses this strategy, the Yagga and another Minion player can start spamming a phrase and make it final day. ST can accept all of the uses of it to kill everyone that next night. This can be especially strong for Evil to do if the right Minions are on the script, even if they don't have an actual Yagga in play, such as with Goblin or Boomdandy.

If town isn't using the 'Shut up Yagga' strategy, ST isn't at all required to mass kill if the Yagga reveals themself and starts blabbing their phrase.

[boreal nest]

I would ban that as st

[boreal nest]

Irs the group fault

[boreal nest]

Just because its plain unfun

[still sedge]

Oh yeahhh

[subtle wolf]

I agree that is an interesting and possibly effective counter action to the yagga strat I gave. Notice, though, that like the counter action Nerdguy suggested, that is the storyteller using his power to punish players or balance the game, not a counterstrategy that naturally opens in a closed game space. In fact, there is no closed game space with the Yagga because it always requires the ST to choose the number of kills and who dies. That seems to be fine for lots of people; for me, your suggested ST solution just highlights what I see as an inherent flaw in Yagga

I’m really not interested in playing a complicated and long bluffing game where great plays are softly undone by fiat of a game master, or where a game master is assessing the merit of my play to decide whether I should die as farmer in a LM game, for example.

[boreal nest]

Huh?!

It seems we have very different philosophy of play

To me its a party game basically

[subtle wolf]

Are you actually confused? What does this mean?

[boreal nest]

Yeah

Kibda

Not like, i thibk i get that ur more of a competitive serious player

And thats fine abd cool

[winter bobcat]

Also not every character will be a great fit for every group. cough wizard cough

Sometimes you just don’t play scripts with those characters in certain groups if they can’t handle it

[boreal nest]

I just see game more casually as a social space first i guess? Like to me disallowibg soneobe not to speak is not a strategy, its like saying "i have the ibfinite shield that cannot be touched" in game if pretend. Telling yag players not to talk is not engagibg with game in bad faith to me, like u can execute em if ur sus but no, i as st or player would not tolerate ppl doing that

And to me botc really is more pretend than like chess

[frigid flower]

I kind of belive wizard its an ST problem (claims from someone who has never ST wizard ever)

[subtle wolf]

…then why would you support Yagga as a character? Literally everything I’ve written about Yagga shows why it encourages violating your notion of a fun gamespace. I’m not the one who invented the strat of making people quiet, that’s implicit in the character rules. You should be glad someone noticed the unfun meta and join me in shunning the Yagga

[boreal nest]

But the meta™ is not the only way to play? Like i had yag games with no such issues at all. Just because there is an exploit in the system ppl can use to suck all the fun out doesnt mean they shoukd be able to do it.

[still sedge]

people see that strategy and think "I don't want to do that"

so they just don't.

If they do, the ST can use the inherent fiat to balance it back anyway

so like... just don't

[subtle wolf]

Here is an example from this very chat of people using such a strategy, and the character having to be patched, because it sucks

[boreal nest]

I wouldbt "balance it" even, i just would suggest that ppl leave if they do not wish to engage with yag on its terms, suspend your disbelief in a way

[still sedge]

(make a less conspicious phrase)

I've enjoyed yagga games due to the fact that uh

I like speaking actually

[boreal nest]

To me telling soneobe to not talk at all is something legally allowed by rules but our of game space in a way. Again, the pretend example of "haha, i ibherently won by saying the biggest thing abd making the nornal flow of gane stop. I win!!!!"

[rose oriole]

In my former group that I still play longtext with, long text yag has a 5/5 win rate.

[still sedge]

I mean it would definitely break Rule 1 to tell people to not speak

[boreal nest]

Botc like any such party social game is a social contract above else to me where all agree to certain preconceptions even if they arent stated in the rules

[still sedge]

I would not play competitive clocktower with yag

[subtle wolf]

People criticizing a particular strat as unfun, and somehow concluding the character is okay because you just won’t go for that strat, must be one of the most common threads on this server

[still sedge]

It's also a debilitating strat sooo

[boreal nest]

Its not a competitive game bro

[subtle wolf]

Brother do you actually think I don’t realize that

[boreal nest]

Its a party game

Idk what to say

[subtle wolf]

That’s why I pointed it out in the first place

[still sedge]

like the downsides are -it sucks -it's painful to communicate anything(this is downside, you don't have time)

[subtle wolf]

Preaching to the choir

[still sedge]

upsides: No kills(Unless the ST decides to fuck you over. In which case you're just harming your team)

[subtle wolf]

Oh you mean debilitating as in hard on the good team, nvm

[boreal nest]

If you want to suck all the fun out of the room just dobt play. And i dont mean that u specifically do it but for people who do the :meta:

Thats my piece

[still sedge]

Not talking is so much worse than it seems imo

[subtle wolf]

“People who play games to win aren’t fun and aren’t trying to have fun” is one of the lamest notions that I regularly see on this server

[still sedge]

there's a reason "all info outed f3" is uh... not a good-sided strat

not speaking is going to get you into situations like that.

[boreal nest]

I agree its a weak and underpowered demon who has this exploit. But its not a comp game where everything needs to be squeky clean and balanced and take ubfun strats into account.
Thats all.

[still sedge]

yaggababble is better than fearmonger at least

at least i can abuse ST fiat within the rules to stop unfun strats

I have to do so much work to bootlegger fearmonger into not having selfnom

[subtle wolf]

BOTC can be a somewhat competitive game with a strong social aspect. BOTC is not just a party game. I would never pull out BOTC for a party, I would pull out Monikers or Wavelength or a tier ranking of restaurants on my TV for everyone to argue. People insisting that BOTC can only be a casual party game are fucking lame

[still sedge]

Wait clocktower isn't why you host parties?

guess I've been doing it wrong /j

[subtle wolf]

I host “BOTC parties” with the sole purpose of playing BOTC

[boreal nest]

I would prefer not to have attacks on my character if thats ok with you.

[wary solstice]

Maybe I made an error in replying to the prior stuff.

How about we focus on the new topic

[still sedge]

ngl Yag also has accessibility issues but uh

[still sedge]

Pair it with spy for shits and giggles

[rose oriole]

I like the concept of Yag in theory

Oh wait that’s yesterday’s question I didn’t even notice

Okay

[still sedge]

can't just be saying true things

smh

[fringe mirage]

Boop

[rose oriole]

Everyone May Play As They wisH, we Only Gently Remind Everyone