Character interaction thingy

[weak ingot]

interesting... you have my attention

do you have a script for it

[wary solstice]

If someone dies to execution and no one dies the next night... what do you do?

Execute no one? Might lose to Vortox!
Execute the prior executed person? Might lose if they were the host!
Execute someone else? Might lose to the Mastermind!

[weak ingot]

i‘m just happy mastermind is getting a script use

[wary solstice]

Minuit a Fond la Caisse is my script which popularized the engine, and Mind Your Step and Executionology also build on the engine.

https://www.botcscripts.com/script/4467/1.0.0
https://www.botcscripts.com/script/6253/3.2.0
https://www.botcscripts.com/script/8235/1.0.0

[weak ingot]

i feel like my main pain points with lleech is that so many roles can‘t tell they‘re hosted at all

how does Minuit a Fond la Caisse use Pacifist⸮

to me it looks strange with Saint and Damsel too but i can’t tell if it’s because i don’t understand yet

[wary solstice]

If someone is Pacifist saved, it prevents triggering the panic that the engine creates, while also forcing a decision for Evil Team later on killing the Pacifist saved person or leaving them to be framed as Lleech or DA saved. If it saves someone twice, it confirms the person as either Lleech or Good saved by Pacifist, so Evil must either keep them alive to be framed or kill them and leave Pacifist confirmed.

Saint adds more worry for executions, since they're an unsafe execution, but also dangerous as a host.

Many of the roles can detect poison or search for hosts as well. Savant can be used by ST to give hints. Math detects the abnormalities. Fisherman can be given advice pointing to the host. General can be warned regarding the quality of the host.

[weak ingot]

all agreeable. i like it

[wary solstice]

The basic idea for the engine is that the only reason people die at night is because of the Demon (but an exception is allowed for Tinker), and similar the only reason for no one dying is because the Demon chose to sank OR its Mastermind night (but an exception is allowed for Goon drunk Demon).

So if no one dies, the panic begin, because Town is forced to decide on their move, since each possible choice of execution type could lose them the game.

[still sedge]

Atheist

[winter bobcat]

well you don't need to save it, it can't die

duh

[late ingot]

lleech needs reasons for "hey guys, i'm a good player with weird info, can we kill me" to not happen

boomdandy helps some (town is reluctant to execute into those claims). legion helps some (good players don't want to die)

[winter bobcat]

what was the djinnlegger for GoD where the demon can steal dead votes or something?

or only give them to evils?

that could be interesting with lleech to make goods want to live to keep their voting power

[hollow fulcrum]

the river styx

every night the demon could choose to ferryman and return all DVs

[fringe mirage]

11/17: Lord of Typhon x Damsel

[rose oriole]

did you generate 2 random characters

[still sedge]

It makes the guess riskier

[rose oriole]

ah that's true

[fringe mirage]

I was curious how the extra Minion helped or hurt. As well as whether the line of good players would affect the Danes hunt

[winter bobcat]

its also an extra back into bluff for typhon

if things don't add up

(say a virgin doesn't proc on a TF claiming/pulling minion)

[vale frigate]

I love when TF claim/pull minion

(i know what you meant)

[winter bobcat]

then virgin wouldve procced

[steady granite]

oh typhon damsel is really really evil sided

typhon knows a lot of characters that are out of play which really helps with damsel finding

and also knows an extra player that is definitely not the damsel due to being evil

[winter bobcat]

Plus can add a damsel at any player count

[steady granite]

that is not necessarily a problem if you balance town accordingly

[winter bobcat]

Typhon could also overwrite your damsel balancers

[steady granite]

true

[real heron]

Just place the LoT after the rest of the characters go out, nothing could possibly go wrong with that

Partly genuine and also you should let players know and also avoid any conscious metas etc with your typhon picks

[fervent basalt]

11/18: Preacher x Ojo

[viscid hazel]

What's the interaction

[fervent basalt]

ojo can choose to immediately kill the preacher once they've preached a minion

[chilly cedar]

It's an interaction

[viscid hazel]

ah yes

hmm

[chilly cedar]

Hehe

[viscid hazel]

that certainly is a thing

[chilly cedar]

Preacher isn't real anyway

[forest spindle]

Its fine, gives preacher pseudo info if they die after picking a player and die

[chilly cedar]

It works on specific scripts but Preacher Ojo narrows the types of scripts these two characters can be on

Like it needs to have good Preacher Minions on a Demon which doesn't give any misinformation

I think it's cool on paper and can work well with homebrew but with the Minions we have in practice it's actually very narrow

[fervent basalt]

there is the social thing of 'was the person I preached last night a minion' but I'm not sure how much it's likely to actually come up

[chilly cedar]

I think the base interaction is strong enough to build a script around

It's just if you can get it to work

[viscid hazel]

it's neat but I think you'll just end up with confirmation bias most of the time

[chilly cedar]

I think it's more than neat. Evil having a way to play against the preacher is quite cool

Also the preacher being annoying enough to sink a kill on it is quite nice

I could see it on a BMR-like maybe

[viscid hazel]

yeah fair enough

[chilly cedar]

It's just most misinfo minions aren't that good with preacher

I am convinced by the idea that the preacher can shine on scripts where knowing "this specific player doesn't have a Minion ability" is useful

Boomdandy, Scarlet Woman, Devil's Advocate, Mastermind, Witch, Cerenovus, Harpy, Boffin I think all go in that bucket. Perhaps some specific ones will be contested

Like I'm not convinced Boffin is that important most the time. And I know some who think Cere+Preacher is just fine but not excellent

[fervent basalt]

marionette is interesting if you ignore steven medway

[chilly cedar]

I think Scarlet Woman can be scripted with Ojo. It's just what other Minions do you put with it

[chilly cedar]

Hence I didn't put it on my list because I need to ignore Steven Medway

But even marionette

Like what's this good team

They're being run over by the nefarious Ojo Scarlet Woman Marionette evil team

I could make them all Stewards and I'm pretty sure evil could lose to that.

Like yeah I like the idea. Maybe with some homebrew minions that give misinformation but are awesome with preacher, it'll be a cool dynamic

[forest spindle]

what about goblin?

[chilly cedar]

Goblin also works yes

I feel it's a bit direct personally. Like Preacher can counter a lot

Goblin Preacher is better than Evil Twin Preacher

But they feel like a similar type of interaction where because the Preacher might know where to look for a Goblin/Evil Twin, it becomes much easier for them to defuse than a boomdandy or scarlet

[forest spindle]

yea good point

[chilly cedar]

It's less of an issue in practice because the Goblin won't always claim on like D1 or D2. But in the games when it does happen it's a bit sad

[frigid flower]

Poisoner

Or its poisoner bad

[stuck locust]

not great with Preacher

[frigid flower]

Why?

[stuck locust]

with Poisoner the Preacher can't really figure out anything from their ability

it's just "maybe I hit the Poisoner and there's no poison but who knows 🤷‍♂️ "

[stuck locust]

and I think Preacher isn't a good character outside of this environment

[winter bobcat]

depends if its a proxy loud poisoner

ie heavy on the mechanical roles

[stuck locust]

i don't think a good proxy loud poisoner script will ever exist

[winter bobcat]

it needs to be stuff like Tinker/Moonchild/Lycan

where its either mights or there are alternate fail conditions

Virgin falls into this category too

[forest spindle]

11/19 Imp Heretic

[viscid hazel]

Good

Very good

I like that the imp has to plan

Unless you get 3 evils alive

On final 3

[winter bobcat]

do they though?

can't they just get executed?

[viscid hazel]

I mean yeah but the town has to allow it

[stuck locust]

good likely won't want to execute the Demon after the Heretic outs

[winter bobcat]

that's why you double claim heretic as evils (there is no heretic)

[real heron]

But the real heretic isn’t going to out to you that it’s a double claim or anything, I don’t see the point

[forest spindle]

11/20 Princess x Mastermind

[weak ingot]

> be we, princess ruling over a humble fiefdom
> the locals enjoy our company
> an extravagant noble informs us of an individual plotting the demise of the village we are visiting
> such horrendous accusations was concurred by several others
> we query the accursed and perceive them as rather suspicious
> we demand the evil-doer executed immediately
> they are hanged and we are pleased
> there are no victims of crime tomorrow night
> we are satisfied that the threat has been removed and the village members proceed to execute another suspect
> the town immediately engulfs into a blood crimson night
> ???

[frigid flower]

Hard counter character for whalebuffet type interaction

Just like Goblin X Tea Lady.

But this one is even more rare to proc

[weak ingot]

the princess shouldn’t have anything that gets in the way of her ability imo

your royal highness is a weak character as is and should be pampered

this doesn’t even support mastermind?

most of the time it would be rather unlikely

[forest spindle]

My idea was that Mastermind could bluff princess and kill their demon 1st day. Dont know if thats a fun or weird interaction

[weak ingot]

this was the interaction i was attempting to describe in my greentext

tldr: i think it‘s bad

for one: it gets in the way of princess

princess is already a weak support role

adding mastermind makes it weaker and risks making princess just a blank token

while, yes, mastermind needs reasons for no one to die in the night, princess is anti-synergy

additionally, it is utterly feelsbad for the princess to be the reason why town loses

not only that but it also sucks on mastermind’s end because it just complicates the normal strategy to execute their demon day 1

[tawny haven]

I think this is an interaction that I have thoughts on in theory that are utterly proven wrong in practice

[weak ingot]

the princess bluff to specifically target one person is ridiculously hard

[tawny haven]

Like, I think I agree with canicao in a vaccuum that a MM bluffing princess is really devastating... but, like, Ride the Cyclone and Climbing the Ladder are two Princess/MM scripts that don't really feel it in practice? Towns have the ability to play around it and while you do get those cheesy D2 wins, there's enough that can tell Princess from MM to make it okay

RtC in particular leans on the Alhad/MM jinx which makes the interaction a bit better, since on a proposed princess night it's a bit more difficult to get 3 good players to choose life

[weak ingot]

oh right ride the cyclone

that has princess now??

[tawny haven]

it's had it for a bit

[weak ingot]

i‘ve only played like v5

[weak ingot]

oh yeah

If the Al-Hadikhia dies by execution, and the Mastermind is alive, the Al-Hadikhia chooses 3 good players tonight: if all 3 choose to live, evil wins. Otherwise, good wins.

that resolves princess al-had

[steady granite]

bro weren't you in a ride the cyclone game i ran

[weak ingot]

i don’t remember our server games . . .

[steady granite]

im crying now

[wild bridge]

11/21 Professor X Leviathan

Think about it for a moment before a negative knee-jerk reaction.

only then consider throwing it into the dustbin of history

[weak ingot]

this didn’t elicit a kneejerk reaction

professor just becomes a public check on whether an execution was good or not

if good, it‘s confirmed to everyone, if evil, it leaves professor as a frame

i mean it looks fine to me i don’t see anything particularly awful about it

[deft stirrup]

It looks solid

It limits worlds usefully as everyone knows that ressed player is a Townsfolk and that it was the one good execution they can take.

[coral jungle]

I mean, you can, but why?

Id prefer Virgin to Professor in Leviathan tbh

[forest spindle]

You need to sacrifice a good player in a lev game in order to confirm two good players. Its really powerful when it works but comes at a decent cost

[real heron]

I think this works specifically in a solo-levi script, cause in almost any other setting, professor is kind of overwhelming for the rest of the script

[late ingot]

tbf it's pretty difficult to write a multi demon Levi script

[fringe mirage]

Weirdly, everyone else here is right. It’s not that terrible because you don’t have a lot of execution and they happen late game

It does mean you need specialized poisons or Boffin to bluff Prof, but it’s fine

[green fiber]

it’s also kinda hard for evil to counter this without boffin

[winter bobcat]

Does it have to be bluffable?

[wary solstice]

They don't quite need to counter it, since the cost for this to have been done is a Good player being executed usually, so Good has only one more real shot at getting the Levi.

[winter bobcat]

Using one of two executions. Making sure it's a townsfolk. Just for 2 people to not be Levi

You still have at best 1 in 5 shot

Unless it's a teensy but teensy are a different beast anyway

[fringe mirage]

its really only a problem if you have like NWM, Prof, and Virgin. Because then Prof shrinking the bluffspace is a bit tougher

But one character who hard confirms itself at a cost & with failstates is fine

[winter bobcat]

Ntm there would only be one legit target, so evil can still double claim it

The only concern being doubling up on powerful OPG like artists who get two uses late into the game bc evil has much more limited counterplay than usual

Especially with the artist being confirmed townsfolk

[deft stirrup]

Yeah, counterplay to the confirmed Townsfolk might be tricky. Would needs something on script to prevent them from getting confirmed useful info.

[chilly cedar]

like poisoner

[winter bobcat]

or Widow

[chilly cedar]

widow doesn't know who is gonan be revived on n1]

[deft stirrup]

True

[winter bobcat]

but you can poison bad confirmed townsfolk like artist

or just poison the prof

[chilly cedar]

the true solution is poisoner+spy

[winter bobcat]

• Recluse

[deft stirrup]

Oh, Spy is interesting because of misreg

[winter bobcat]

and yk what, lets just put drunk on too

and if we're adding drunk, we gotta add baron...

[chilly cedar]

and then add professor and leviathan...

[winter bobcat]

well in that case might as well just add the rest of the TB roles

[chilly cedar]

of course

[winter bobcat]

If we already have 7

[deft stirrup]

Including Imp too ofc

[chilly cedar]

and shabaloth

[winter bobcat]

oh if we have levi/imp we might need to add assassin

and maybe switch out saint to luna/moonchild

or maybe mutant?

[winter bobcat]

wait, I thought we were working around unbluffable professor?

[deft stirrup]

Shab is meh to cover for it

Boffin though

[chilly cedar]

gotta love being evil

and getting our spy executed only to revive them with the boffin professor ability

[winter bobcat]

do yall count Spy as a good levi exe?

[chilly cedar]

no

[winter bobcat]

what about recluse?

[chilly cedar]

yes

[deft stirrup]

Spy - no
Recluse - always yes

[winter bobcat]

what if you want them to be the frame?

[deft stirrup]

They can be a frame without registering as Evil to Leviathan's wincon.

Framing Recluse by misreg doesn't matter if not doing so just results in Evil win.

[winter bobcat]

but but but, but if you let evil win early, how do you get to a final 3? Doesn't that make you a bad ST? /s

This is why I always include in my scripts

to make sure there's a final 3

[winter bobcat]

[11/22]: Pacifist x Saint

[green fiber]

cool

[fringe mirage]

A good litmus test for whether the Storyteller thinks Pacifist is a Townsfolk

I haven’t seen the combo much myself, but it’s kinda cool

You still should be careful about barreling towards the Saint. If evil was bluffing Pacifist instead of Saint, you’re fucked

[sudden drift]

TIL the Saint's losscon is "die by execution," not "get executed"

Cool interaction

[chilly cedar]

?

[chilly cedar]

OHHHHH

[weak ingot]

hi

contrary to popular belief i think this is a mid interaction

for one, if you prioritise pacifist townsfolk, it heavily neuters the outsidery-ness of the saint

so i honestly prefer prioritising saint outsider in this case?

[winter bobcat]

however, even if you prioritize paci, if its not super public that you do, the saint still has to behave like a saint. like they can't automatically trust you'll save them

or if they do, they still have to believe the pacifist is in play

[coral jungle]

Kill the saint and be done with it.

Pacifist is a townsfolk, but you're the saint. It's your job to stay off the block.

[still sedge]

I'm saving the saint

[stuck locust]

remember town still has to trust fall on the Paci here

I'm always saving the Saint

[weak ingot]

to me it feels kinda like a Storyteller judgement thing

if the Saint is really not pushing themselves off the block i might execute them for not interacting with the game

if the Saint was pushed on by all the evils and they really didn’t want to be up there then i‘d save them

[chilly cedar]

Pacifist can and should save players who, if executed, would instantly lose the game.

I think most of us are on the prioritise pacifist side of things. Prioritising Saint is interesting, but I feel is unfair to the pacifist if they're executed

[winter bobcat]

it, ofc, i think does also depend on whether the paci has saved anyone yet this game; not all of it, but some

[chilly cedar]

Saint is very unlikely to be willing to be Pacifist science. Even with a confirmed Pacifist, their ability going wrong can make the saint worried.

I think it's a a cool interaction but it's a bit unlikely to be seen because Saint's incentives to not be executed are stronger than Pacifist's incentives

[weak ingot]

generally my thoughts are that the saint should be scared. the first few times i‘ve run paci-saint involved “well my Storyteller saves with pacifist regularly so i should be fine if i think it‘s in play”

(this might just be a me problem)

[stuck locust]

it's a where is the saint getting this blind trust problem

[chilly cedar]

I don't think it's a problem

[winter bobcat]

does this change for you if its - - compared to regular ?

[stuck locust]

I'm very happy with Saint being happy to be executed if they think there's a paci in play

because they still have to trust the Paci

[weak ingot]

my idea for a good Saint-Paci is with either Lycanthrope or Hermit Recluse

well it makes it the paranoia more obvious

[chilly cedar]

That is interesting that Saint's are happy to be executed

Did evil ever bluff pacifist on this script?

[weak ingot]

shit‘s weird i think i need to make them go back to TB therapy

[chilly cedar]

And get a win off a Saint exe?

[winter bobcat]

saints would know if they're hermits though

[twilit wedge]

Assuming the script is built with an alternative to pacifist saves (which is probably just DA) that evil can bluff I would be fine saving a saint

[winter bobcat]

it only matters if there isn't an actual *paci

which may just be paci going into the bag too often

[twilit wedge]

Plus using a town ability to confirm a town and an outsider is way less helpful than confirming two town

[weak ingot]

cough please ignore my nickname i‘ve gotten better

[chilly cedar]

That is true

[twilit wedge]

So while preventing a saint loss does also prevent the loss of the game

[winter bobcat]

debatable, because saint is such a common frame/bluff

so solving whether they're a demon can be huge

[twilit wedge]

It also doesn’t help town as much in solving the game as getting another town confirmed good

Yeah but that’s more meta and script dependent to be fair

My group rarely bluffs saints so it wouldn’t be as helpful as a group that does so often

[chilly cedar]

Another thing which might be meta dependant is that a Saint doesn't get info so doesn't clear worlds

But also really wants to be killed at nighg

[weak ingot]

yeah i don’t actually play with pacifist and saint enough together so i don’t entirely have an opinion yet

[chilly cedar]

So by paci saving the saint you're making an incentive for evil to kill an Outsider who gets no info at night.

[twilit wedge]

I do think that aside from the obvious “we lose the game” side of saint, confirming a town as pacifist is generally more useful because it makes less worlds viable (their info is true, or somehow they’ve been influenced)

[winter bobcat]

another factor is how many other survive execution roles there are on script

[chilly cedar]

Rather than paci saving an info role who now has an extra big target on their back

[twilit wedge]

Where there are other roles that confirm saint better and for less risky plays

Like librarian

[weak ingot]

from what i see i‘d always paci save saint unless the saint is really just not pushing off themselves at all

[twilit wedge]

That’s true generally a paci saved target will die in the next few nights

Especially off of BMR where there’s usually less reasons for an exe survival to happen

[chilly cedar]

And saint is a pretty miserable thing to kill if you're evil

[twilit wedge]

Oh for sure

I think there’s enough merit to both options to make it an interesting interaction

I generally probably would avoid risking it even if I don’t think my storyteller would let the game blow up like that with a real pacifist

But it’s still an interesting interaction to consider the results of

[weak ingot]

i don’t mind not saving saint honestly but my mental checklist defaults to saving saint

[twilit wedge]

I’d probably save the saint in most scenarios but I don’t think it would be a 100% thing

If town was testing under the assumption that a pacifist would save I probably would 100% of the time

[chilly cedar]

I think I always save a saint. I also have another reason I just thought of

[twilit wedge]

I might less so if the pacifist was not involved in the execution because I think the intent of saint is for town to knowingly risk a loss on the role generally

[chilly cedar]

When Pacifist is on script you get info from not only who is saved, but who isnt.

[twilit wedge]

So if town cumulatively agrees on the risk without an expected backup I could see not saving, but it would depend a lot on the specific game

Though if I had the two on a script together I’d probably include a few ways for the pacifist to end up not sober and healthy

Which in that case I’d almost always save because the risk comes from the pacifist not functioning even if in play

[chilly cedar]

Sometimes even if there is a good Townsfolk, the Storyteller can think "this player is such a big frame that people will think they are DA protected, and we need to remove this world for good to have a chance"

Saint takes away that option from the ST

They can't go

[weak ingot]

y‘all are so agreeable i love it

[chilly cedar]

"if I don't save then I'll remove that world"

Because not saving them loses the game

[weak ingot]

maybe i don’t need to finish that pacifist writeup after all 😂

[chilly cedar]

Saint takes away an option from the Storyteller to use the pacifist save or miss in a way which best removes worlds

[winter bobcat]

well they can

they just likely won't

[chilly cedar]

I'm saying that even if I am of the camp that saint is always saved by the pacifist, as long as the Saint can be built as evil with a DA, this isn't as big of an upside as it sounds

[tawny haven]

pinging @wary solstice for this since paci+saint is an interaction on Minuit and i wanna know what he thinks 👀

but I'm personally big on the "paci-save the Saint" train

i'd have to think more about saving the Saint a second time in a row

[wary solstice]

It's one of the intended interactions, yep.
The only exception: Lleech host Saint

[tawny haven]

still leaning toward yes but there's definitely nuance there

[wary solstice]

Pacifist is meant to be a savior in the game which also hard avoids the engine from proccing (since Mastermind is only a fear if someone dies to execution, and Vortox can't exploit a non-death execution). If the Saint is executed though, regardless of however the Pacifist has been used: Save the Saint (if not the host)

[viscid hazel]

It's a more extreme version of slayer / saint in a way

[winter bobcat]

no, the st doesn't get a choice with slayer

slayer cant kill the saint

[weak ingot]

[11/23] Pacifist / Fool

[winter bobcat]

is this supposed to be the interaction for today?

[weak ingot]

yes

[winter bobcat]

i mean it's a homescript interaction?

[weak ingot]

can confirm

this is true

[still sedge]

yes?

[winter bobcat]

i would not really recommend paci saving the fool

[still sedge]

Paci save the fool if unspent

[winter bobcat]

depending on the circumstances

[weak ingot]

actually, the wiki does

[winter bobcat]

paci or fool?

[weak ingot]

(you can save the unspent fool)

[still sedge]

fool

[winter bobcat]

ah yeah makes sense

I did kinda do that once

but the fool (grandchild) also happened to be DA protected that same day

so it didn't really make a material difference

[weak ingot]

always* execute the spent fool because it is information

*ignoring circumstances where an alive good vote is crucially better

[winter bobcat]

also with poisoned fool...unless you're setting up a da frame which will kill town

but this feels more like a #bad-moon-rising question than CIT tbh 🤷

[weak ingot]

less of a question and more of a discussion? we‘ve had homescript interactions before

my favourite part of this interaction is that fool can bluff paci which is really funny

or if possible at least roleswap with the paci

[winter bobcat]

also can combine to confirm not DA which is somewhat interesting

assuming both are sober

[weak ingot]

since pacifist is a character that‘s nice to know it is in play, but not to necessarily reveal

roleswaps between pacifist and fool are pretty good

[tawny haven]

paci save the unspent fool

do it do it do it it's funny

[chilly cedar]

that's a lot of support for a strange action

i am sure there is something deeper to it

[late ingot]

I think there was one game where the po was going to win off a charge but the fool had both lives unbeknownst to evil

[weak ingot]

Fool sucks

like unironically it could use the help

it feels really sucky to be fool that loses their first life to execution

like effectively you become a blank token. fool ain’t a science character

(the wiki also concurs with this)

[late ingot]

fool exists to be gambler-confirmed so that evil has to really waste those kills

anything that gets the fool trusted with both lives intact (gambler, tea lady, gossip, grandmother, professor) is going to be pretty damning for evil, though

[kind berry]

Have you ever seen village idiots do science? No? Then why would you expect fools to do science?

[jaunty tapir]

Going off this, fool is one of the few roles on BMR that, instead of necessarily confirming (or "confirming") themself, they want to be confirmed by the other players

Pacifist sorta kinda weirdly ehh does this, but like not consistently or well

[coral jungle]

Because the fool naturally survives execution.

But yeah, I agree, it's not exactly what I'd call a science role.

It can function as one, but your main job is to be bait.

Fool really benefits from having some way to get trusted without spending a life, and pacifist is kinda sorta a way to do it.

Forcing evil to double tap a trusted fool really messes with their tempo... is what I would say if it weren't for the BMR evil team having a one size fits all annoying invincible player delete button.

[still sedge]

me when I become the pukka

(the sailor ceased to exist)

[coral jungle]

And one less versatile annoying invincible player delete button.

[still sedge]

but infinite uses

Assassin but Costco

[coral jungle]

Whatever the case, best spot for fool to be science? When it hard confirms itself.

[viscid hazel]

fool getting executed day 1 and losing their first life is the worst thing that can happen to it

definitely save them

it's such a pain for evil to deal with a trusted fool

[steady granite]

the wiki suggests a lot of stupid shit surrounding pacifist

[frigid flower]

Pacifist is a stupid character

Acording to you

[viscid hazel]

11/24: Lycanthrope / Zombuul

im doing one

[real heron]

Someone mentioned a problem with lycan/LM. Well, this interaction makes lycan an outsider

[winter bobcat]

it does depend on what other demons are on script

[still sedge]

Good

Make them have a dilemma

[winter bobcat]

you just hate lycan bc of the legion interaction

[tawny haven]

I think Zombuul/Lycan makes the Lycanthrope much weaker, but not to Outsider tier

it's definitely rough but at the end of the day, you're still the Lycanthrope

[winter bobcat]

just not the usual obscene powerlevel

[tawny haven]

you're effectively a second execution for town each night* if you can get trusted, which is huge

I also think that the presence of Zombuul on script is an incentive for a Lycanthrope to self-kill, which I think is incredibly neat

[winter bobcat]

it can hide zombuul in play, and zombuul can selfkill to somewhat confirm themself to lycan

[tawny haven]

(since the Lycanthrope can see if they have been hiding a Zombuul or not)

[real heron]

Yeah if lycan actually acts like that, I think that sounds neat for sure

[still sedge]

See lycan is normally stupid strong

[twilit wedge]

this is a fine interaction depending on the script and if you want the lycan to be weaker/zombuul to be scarier

[tawny haven]

I've scriptbuilt it before, and while this particular script is somewhat unserious it kinda works

(admittedly lycan-gossip is brutal if evil doesn't have exactly-boffin to bluff Gossip)

[wary solstice]

... Before getting into anything, what is that script name

[tawny haven]

well @green fiber's the milk leader

he starts milks

[frigid flower]

My butt hurts just by seeing zealot + cult leader

the name fits the script like a ring

[green fiber]

hello it’s me

the Milk Leader™

please join my Milk

[winter bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/milk-in-your-face-splash-milk-face-protein-gif-2036756079426257290

[coral jungle]

That is disgusting on so many levels.

Can somebody show me to the nearest toilet?

🤮

Thanks cough @winter bobcat cough

[neon storm]

Gave +1 Thanks to @winter bobcat (current: #1781 - 6)

[late ingot]

I think this is a fine interaction

[steady granite]

this is a homescript interaction (Ten Pin Tolling)

[winter bobcat]

[11/25]: Barber x Goblin

[late ingot]

ooh

If the barber swap happens after the solvers die, this is rough

otoh, "did the demon and minion swap" is just as important to know in f3 whatever the minion type

[winter bobcat]

with other minions though, you can just try to get both before it gets there

[stuck locust]

it's a cool interaction but one that encourages early disposal of Barbers

(from the good team)

[late ingot]

well, evil can always just swap the barber back in, no?

[winter bobcat]

and now you're forming a confirmation chain of good players

[stuck locust]

they can, it does confirm someone

[winter bobcat]

although you could swap a minion with the barber

but that is a risk then

[late ingot]

yeah

[stuck locust]

I mean this is all regular Barber stuff but this interactions definitely pushes the balance slightly towards the "early Barber executions are worth it" side

easy to mitigate with Fang Gu, Godfather etc.

[fringe mirage]

11/26: Noble x Lil Monsta

[coral jungle]

These characters do not interact

[fringe mirage]

Neither doe Ojo Preacher, but ttas been done before

[coral jungle]

Not protesting, just posting my thoughts

[fringe mirage]

ok

understood

[late ingot]

This is fine! You don't choose whether the Noble sees the Demon so much as you choose whether the Noble sees a front or back-loaded Minion. Evil can decide whether to let the baby sit in or out of the pings.

[fringe mirage]

Also, depending on where evil keeps the baby, the Minion in the Noble ping might die at night or carry the baby in F3

[real heron]

I like this interaction

ST control over how the noble info can be used is very cool imo. It also incentivises the noble using its info in combination with night deaths more

[winter bobcat]

ojo preacher can frame people as minions though, like there is an interaction there

[frigid flower]

Social interactions

These characters do not interact mechanically but socially they do.

[viscid hazel]

LM scripts need evil detectors / confirmation roles like noble imo

noble is sort of both

[real heron]

It can also be used in a particular way depending on how the ST does things and also how that interacts with the group’s meta

[winter bobcat]

I think I might do a more straightforward one for today

[11/27]: Princess x Fearmonger

(there is no jinx I'm aware of)

[still sedge]

blergh

remember fearmonger meta

yeah

we just doin that again

[vale frigate]

Really?

This interaction seems good to me

[fringe mirage]

I like Princess Mastermind or Princess Boomdandy better for this kind of trick

But sure, I guess you could get an easy D1 win or bait town into not accepting a princess nom

Also, the Fearmonger won’t know if there are actually pings on their target. Which makes it way harder to override town consensus

[steady granite]

hot take this is good

makes it so princess actually has to consider town opinion instead of nomming whoever they want

[stuck locust]

yeah that's the main interaction here

[magic ferry]

yeah I like this

[frigid flower]

Princess double claim

[coral jungle]

You know when I said fearmonger was getting more support? This is what I meant. Princess and golem are the precursors. What else could TPI have in store?

Great interaction, but sadly not enough to make fearmonger work.

[graceful plume]

I guess Nerdguys argument is "Fearmonger bad" and not "Princess x Fearmonger bad"

I love Princess Fearmonger btw

[vale frigate]

I think there is a compelling three way interaction of or

[winter bobcat]

?

it gives an explanation to the Princess of FM claiming Princess

[vale frigate]

Yees

And it can mean that a 'princess' might need to do their thing after day 1

[winter bobcat]

wait aside from amne/wizard/atheist, is there any way to give a minion a TF ability in addition to their normal ability?

just imagining a vigorkilled FM with the banshee ability, don't mind me

[graceful plume]

Alchemist Boffin giving Legion an extra ability is giving a minion a TF ability if you register Legion as a minion to yourself 😛

Boffin LM also works

But none that can be Vigorkilled that I'm aware of

[winter bobcat]

PD summoner a vigor?

[wary solstice]

Recluse misregisters as a Minion when a Plague Doctor dies, gaining the Fearmonger ability.
Recluse misregisters as a Demon to the Boffin, gaining the Banshee ability
Recluse then dies at night to the Demon. They still retain all their abilities. (If necessary, Vigor kill them)

The Recluse is now a functioning Banshee and has the Fearmonger ability.

(But they're Good-)

Before setting this up, use Boffin to grant the Recluse the Cult Leader ability while they neighbor an Evil, turning the Recluse actually Evil. Then with Barber, swap the Boffin and Demon so that it gets reset, allowing you to grant the Banshee ability.

[graceful plume]

Of course how did I miss that

[wary solstice]

(But this requires three outsiders in play but also Vigor-)
The Xaan is in play and the ST is a jerk.

[graceful plume]

Or it's 12 players with a Pit Hag and a Boffin, Recluse as only starting outsider who got the Cult Leader ability from Boffin and Pit Hag makes a Barber and a Plague Doctor

[wary solstice]

Yep that works

[winter bobcat]

couldn't you just use hermit ogre?

to not worry about the alignment switching

[wary solstice]

Sure.

[winter bobcat]

makes it all a lot cleaner

[graceful plume]

Ah, a Hermit Ogre Plague Doctor Recluse Barber

[wary solstice]

It also means with Hermit, when the Hermit is killed, they trigger the Plague Doctor effect giving themself the Fearmonger ability while also activating the Banshee ability

[winter bobcat]

why do we need barber?

[wary solstice]

We don't need Barber anymore

[graceful plume]

That's even better

[winter bobcat]

ok wait is this QJ v2?

[wary solstice]

TBF though, with this set up, it'd be a little weird when both a Fearmonger ability and Banshee effect trigger at the same time

https://tenor.com/view/poul3-f-r3veil-p-gif-10988460833755738340

[winter bobcat]

we just need multikills?

[graceful plume]

So add Baron, Drunk and Tinker

[wary solstice]

Nah, it's more that this set up kinda screams its own scheme, lol

[winter bobcat]

no, it'd be like Gossip, gambler, assassin grandma etc

[graceful plume]

That way the Vigor killed Hermit can Plague Doctor Baron another player as a Hermit, who can Tinker-die and Plague Doctor the original Hermit as Fearmonger

[winter bobcat]

we are already at full outsider capacity

[wary solstice]

They want to use the Baron Plague Doctor jinx

Using Hermit as an infection

[winter bobcat]

eh we don't really have room in the osuite no?

[graceful plume]

Drunk isn't really necessary tbf

[wary solstice]

Recluse
Hermit
Plague Doctor
Ogre
Tinker

[graceful plume]

So Hermit Recluse Ogre Plague Doctor Tinker

[winter bobcat]

anyway this seems like a @runic solstice approved interaction

lets get his feedback

[graceful plume]

With minions Boffin Baron Fearmonger

[wary solstice]

-# Hystrex might arrive and be like "Oh, someone found a neat interac- oh it's Quil again..."

[graceful plume]

Oh you'd need a Boomdandy so a dying Hermit can Baron-Hermit infect everyone in town

The happiest Vigor with these minions

[wary solstice]

With Hermit, Recluse, Plague Doctor, Tinker, Baron, Boffin, and Cult Leader, you could hypothetically infect a lot of town members and just turn everyone Evil.

Weirdest Evil victory.

[graceful plume]

No even better

[wary solstice]

Switch out CL & Boffin for Ogre

And just everyone picks the demon as they turn into Hermits

[graceful plume]

As last player, turn the demon into an outsider so everyone is evil and there is no demon so good wins

[wary solstice]

Weirdest Good victory.
No one is even Good to enjoy it

[graceful plume]

The depressed ending

[wary solstice]

"We all became Evil, but we discovered then... there was no one to be Evil against..."

[graceful plume]

You need a Politician so you can have the original Hermit win if they die

[winter bobcat]

does this do what we want?

[winter bobcat]

for this og kind of interaction

[wary solstice]

Looks like all the pieces are there

[graceful plume]

Ah Boffin + Alch Boffin is smart

Alch Boffin giving Hermit the Banshee ability and then the Hermit Ogre-picking an evil player

[winter bobcat]

plus engi gives alternate reasons for minion announcements midgame

@edgy socket I think you'd appreciate these shenanigans too

[graceful plume]

Why exactly did we want a Vigorkilled Fearmonger again?

[winter bobcat]

because a FM win via Banshee nom was kinda amusing to me

banshees no longer being safe nominators

[wary solstice]

"We can't trust the Banshee nominations. It's entirely possible the Storyteller has lost their f*cking mind"

A funny interaction with Banshee as well btw: Banshee can nom the Virgin while dead with their ability. This accomplishes nothing other than executing the Banshee's very angry corpse.

-# This can be a bit wild if the Demon has the Boffin-Virgin ability though and the living Banshee noms the Demon.

[winter bobcat]

Also selfkill noms

ending the game

[wary solstice]

They'd still be a Zombuul, so nomming the Virgin does nothing.
... Which also outs them anyway-

[winter bobcat]

just put them in a rev pair and register the as a TF to the virgin

EZ

[fringe mirage]

11/28: Golem x Goblin

[wary solstice]

Ah yes.
The 'Smash their teeth in' response to someone claiming Goblin and showing that smile

A bit unfun for the Goblin, even if it is kinda funny

[coral jungle]

If this is on your script, reconsider your life choices.

[wary solstice]

I mean, it's on Speedy Nights by Mabel (or it was, dunno if the script has been updated)

[tawny haven]

Golem's off speedy

and speedy isn't exactly an exemplar of script design 🙈

because the gimmick means you kinda have to use bad characters instead of good ones

[wary solstice]

Gunslinger isn't a bad char- /s

[cinder shell]

axo admits High Priestess is bad in 4k

[wild bridge]

Clearly everyone's been looking at this interaction from the wrong perspective. Consider:

1. Claim Golem as Goblin, nominate a player who doesn't die, and suggest they are the demon.
2. At any point you find yourself nominated, claim Goblin.

By claiming unsuccessful Golem first, you can minimize the loss of faith in you when you claim Goblin.

[winter bobcat]

[11/29]: Vigormortis x Godfather

[fringe mirage]

It’s a good interaction. Let’s you conceal the Outsider count and keep Godfather around to kill later

Plus Vigor is relatively compatible with some BMR stuff anyways

Catfishing also uses loud Godfather in part because Vigor does O-Mod

Of course, Fang Gu is probably the more important O-mod demon of the two, but both facilitate loud Godfather

[coral jungle]

Fine Vigor minion. Allows you to hide the outsider count and ensure that you get a kill if any outsider is executed ever. Not the greatest Vigor kill, but it's still a good one.

[forest spindle]

Really cool except its super awkward at base 0 outsiders. GF has no ability since both characters know it will be a 0-outsider game anyways

0 outsiders also removes the incentive for vigor to kill a GF

[coral jungle]

Good point. Though that's more an ST issue

That reminds me of a story where it was a base 0 fang gu +1, godfather -1. Evil was rather upset.

[viscid hazel]

the best part of this is for the base 2 outsider -2 games

👌

[stuck locust]

you can trigger GF O-mod after Vigor and still add an Outsider

so yeah great interaction

[chilly cedar]

That's contested

But run it how you like

Just be clear what ruling you use in relevant games

[stuck locust]

TPI said it's a thing and it makes the interaction not suck

[spare hinge]

RAW you are allowed to run setup mod in whatever order you like

[forest spindle]

11/30: Princess x Pukka

[coral jungle]

Pukka finds it a lot harder to bluff princess

I think I'd put this as a meh tier interaction. Princess+deathmod is weird

I don't like it, but it's passable

[winter bobcat]

just nom the player you chose last night

then you either execute them, and no kill, or you don't, and they die

ez bluff

[coral jungle]

The problem is that town usually tries to pressure the princess into noming a spent role or something

And if you don't follow towns desires, you're clearly suspicious

In my experience at least the princess will nominate someone with an evil ping on them or a spent role.

The bluff is pretty luck reliant if anything

[sudden drift]

Won't a Pukka usually pick a claimed Princess N2? I don't love this interaction

I guess that gives away the demon type, which is bad for the Pukka

[winter bobcat]

i mean the princess could also be lying

but it might to the princess i guess

[forest spindle]

Is it worth poisoning the princess though? If you can have a night of untraceable poison

[coral jungle]

Probably not, which is another knock against this interaction (albeit a small one)

[jaunty tapir]

I think it's actually a fairly good dilemma

it lets pukka either silently have an advantage against princess (I find pukka to be weak on ~80% of custscripts with it) or have a louder advantage of negating the princess

[late ingot]

#1399777176902963360 message

I think a lot of good discussion happened here!

[forest spindle]

Oh this interaction was already discussed 😭

[forest spindle]

How about:

12/01 Alchemist X Godfather

[obsidian trout]

Pretty strong all things considered

[real heron]

Me when I bootleg an interaction because I think it’s too strong

[obsidian trout]

Evil can't bluff outsider, all outsiders are confirmed to the alch and you even get a chance at killing the demon outright if town executes an outsider

[real heron]

Yeah an alch godfather can kill one of the outsiders when an outsider is exed or so and they can easily hit an evil if they know that outsider claim is a lie

I think an alch godfather learning the outsider count is quite strong as a baseline

[frigid flower]

Drunk candidate 1#

[forest spindle]

What about making recluse misreg, not showing up as an outsider in play?

[coral jungle]

It goes from broken to stupidly powerful.

[tawny haven]

Alch-GF is really really strong - I think you need a decent amount of misinfo to make it balanced

I think Vortox is interesting with Alch-GF

but most of the time it's scripted with, like, exactly the Drunk token as misinfo

[coral jungle]

Unfortunately, Vortox isn't able to stop it. Not a townsfolk ability telling the Alc the outsiders. You just tell them the wrong minion ability then show them outsider tokens

[weak ingot]

Alch GF is a fun reason for Xaan 1

[coral jungle]

So now they also know it's Vortox.

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1425253277183770697 tries to make it somewhat viable with both spy and recluse and even then it's questionable at best

At the end of the day, you're making a super librarian that kills people, which is obviously absurd as a townsfolk ability.

[weak ingot]

i like the Alch — Xaan/GF combo since it goes both ways

Alch GF might know the Xaan number or is being gaslit by Xaan 1

[late ingot]

oh neat

[weak ingot]

Alch Xaan can’t always be [0 Outsiders] since GF +1 hits all the YSK

so Xaan 2 is neat

well it depends for the latter since setup goes in any order

but still! neat interactions

[tawny haven]

that's not how Alchemist or Vortox work -- by Philo-Snitch predcedent the Alch-GF ability is a Townsfolk ability

so gets falsified by Vortox

[coral jungle]

Since when was that a precedent?

I didn't know that

[tawny haven]

and as per new Alchemist, since you aren't learning an out-of-play ability anymore, you don't show an in-play Minion token to the Alchemist

[tawny haven]

in the Cannibal writeup iirc, let me try and find that

(a Canni-Snitch in a Vortox game gives the Minions in-play bluffs)

Vortox: Everyone ready for a niche situation? If the Snitch is executed in a Vortox game, the Cannibal gains the Snitch ability. Technically it’s the Cannibal version of the Snitch ability that is giving information to the Minions, so with the new version of Vortox being that Townsfolk abilities give false information, the Minions would each be told three in play characters due to the Cannibal-Snitch ability being a Townsfolk ability rather than an Outsider ability. Similarly the Cannibal-Lunatic would tell the Vortox that a different player is the Lunatic and different players were attacked.

emphasis mine

[coral jungle]

Wow

Really? Wow

[tawny haven]

so a Boffin-TF ability is a Minion ability (so doesn't get Vortoxed), and the Alch-GF is a Townsfolk ability (and is thus subject to the Vortox)

[fervent basalt]

I like alch-gf but it is very easy to make too strong when scriptbuilding

[fervent basalt]

I agree with this

I'm not sure if there's a correct ruling between giving a vortoxed alch-gf only not-in-play outsiders vs a set of outsiders that is incorrect

[late ingot]

My gut is that it just needs to be an incorrect set? Similarly to how Vortoxed noble info doesn't have to be 2 evils

[winter bobcat]

Or vortox with tb top 4

[frigid flower]

Any good alchemist scripts

Other that alchemy 101

[chilly cedar]

I think Alchemist Godfather Spy is now a neat trio

[spice ferry]

I've played in that game with the Kinky folks. I was a minion bluffing buttler, the alch-godfather received a bluff token from the misregistering spy.

I was essentially seen as trusted by most of town because of the info. Twas fun

[graceful plume]

Oh that's incredibly sweet

[late ingot]

https://www.botcscripts.com/script/181/3.0.1 - dusk is fairly popular but also advanced!

Autumn also made a script (Argonauts) with an Alch that I enjoyed; idt it's on botcscripts yet

[wary solstice]

I have to update it still, but you might like Dullahan under the Willows

It's a script where anyone can be the Vizier, whether Townsfolk, Outsider, Minion, or even the Demon and it's fair.

@winter bobcat Why the Vigor react? Vigor isn't on Dullahan?

[winter bobcat]

its not a vigor react

its a QJ react

because anyone can be

[jaunty tapir]

this is a mistake I've made a dozen times but not anyone can be the vizier on quadjank

it doesn't have recluse

[tawny haven]

atheist

[jaunty tapir]

ok fair yeah

[real heron]

I quite like Punchy

[tawny haven]

Even Madder Science won the Boffin competition and it's quite fun

https://www.botcscripts.com/script/4997/1.0.0

+1 to Dusk in the House of the Damned, Voyage of the Argonauts, and Punchy

[forest spindle]

12/02 Pixie X Village Idiot

[viscid hazel]

Good 👍

[coral jungle]

Bad 👎

Well, kinda. I feel like this is a sort of "yes but don't" scenario where you get a good player with the vi ability that doesn't have to worry about vi drunk shenanigans. Similar to philosopher but this entirely in ST hands.

They're fine to go on script together, but please don't show the pixie vi

[weak ingot]

idk sometimes i feel having an alignment checker makes pixie pretty boring

[viscid hazel]

I mind it less than philo because it's not guaranteed

And keeping the madness up creates misinfo

And it's going to be obvious to evil probably who the potential pixie VI is

[stuck locust]

completely fine

it's kinda strong but it's unlikely the Pixie will be able to retain the VI ability for more than like 2 nights

[winter bobcat]

Ok but what about as separate characters

Is the VI checking the pixie to prove its not an evil double claim anything?

[rose oriole]

Also you don’t know which VI has to die for you to gain the ability

[frigid flower]

4 VI! 5 VI! 6 VI!

Village idiot maxing

[graceful plume]

Pit Hag can make more VIs if you have spare tokens. That's a reason to buy the Carousel 4 more times

[real heron]

I like it. An intended interaction on a lil monsta script I have cause good has many reasons to lie and having another player claiming vi is fun, while it’s also not going to be huge info cause the pixie can be LM killed if needed

[unborn trellis]

It's fine

bc pixie getting it is strong, but pixie learning VI also means its pixie info has almost 0 value

also they don't know which VI needs to die in order for them to get the ability

[kind berry]

[03/12] Organ Grinder X Damsel

[frigid flower]

Net Negative for the evil team for using their own abbilities hahahahahaha

[fringe mirage]

damsel is a hidden Outsider, which is probably helpful when Organ Grinder is one of the loudest Minions. But it also feels like they want different scripts?

especially since unless the Organ Grinder turns off early, the Damsel has a much better idea who they are. And that gets into the classic dilenma of "Organ Grinder has to stop acting to not out themself"

[frigid flower]

Hidden Votes executing someone the evil team were not even framing its such a played like damn fool moment!

[spice ferry]

wait I don't understand this... explain how damsel and OG is net negative for the evil team? In what way does this help the damsel.

[green fiber]

damsel can vote on themselves to defuse their ability without tipping off evil

[spice ferry]

Oh...well there's a lot of characters that are fine dying

[green fiber]

yeah but it still helps evil narrow down

[grand cargo]

**[12/4] x **

[viscid hazel]

🤷

[wary solstice]

Funny.

There's the major risk of the Assassin murdering their own Demon by accident if they are careless, which makes Poppy a super powerful TF in such an instance, but of course the Assassin can hold off until they're ready (which still is beneficial for the Poppy).

Assassin does have the safe option of just stabbing themself to death to progress the game faster without risking hitting the Demon.

[forest spindle]

12/05 Spy X Widow

[weak ingot]

you don’t need both 👍

[tawny haven]

There's the possible interaction of giving the Spy the Widow ping

but yeah you don't see them in the same script together enough for it to really come into effect

[jaunty tapir]

they don't often go together but I legit think that they could hypothetically be very cool

you just need to give them distinct enough identities by leveraging their differences: make the widow poison particularly important on a custom script, or the fact that the spy sees the grim every night and not just the first so they can learn, say, the balloonist pings/when players used OPG abilities, etc

I loosely have the idea of a script with lots of confirmation chains and both of these so that spy can get into these chains and widow can stop them from ever happening

[chilly cedar]

Would be a funny concept for a teensy

Having both Spy and Widow on script can pretty dramatically affect how good play

If in 1 Minion games there is a 50% chance evil have the grim...

And jn 2 Minion games there is a 84% chance of evil getting the grim (assuming random minions but also there is only 1 out of 6 Minion combinations where evil don't get the grim on average script)

Then good will be more open with their charcaters

Like significantly

Funnily enough this doesn't hurt evil that much as the widow and spy can also bluff it

[forest spindle]

Im tinkering with a levi script and I think theyre both really interesting when it comes to misinfo:

widow is one to many misinfo: one player gets a lot of misinfo about others

Spy is many to one: Multiple players get misinfo about the spy

[late ingot]

yeah, I think I end up putting both spy and widow on a number of the leviathan scripts I tinker with

[winter bobcat]

-- the best suite of all time

[late ingot]

Widow's fun with vig

[winter bobcat]

its ok

but its really just for the poison with vig

[late ingot]

widow is kinda about the poison ngl

or, like, on many scripts the poison is the main focus and the grimpeeking isn't super useful beyond choosing the most devastating target

[weak ingot]

wonder why it has a spider icon

[winter bobcat]

black widows?

[late ingot]

for the black widow spider, presumably

[weak ingot]

i was \sarcastic

[edgy socket]

new Friendly Invitations version just dropped

[late ingot]

I think of the poison/misregistration aspect as the "what" of both the Widow and the Spy, and I think of the grimpeeking aspect as the "how"

[winter bobcat]

ok its kinda funny to not register spy as evil to the wraith though

on the topic of multipeeker scripts

[weak ingot]

i don’t think spy wraith misreg is exactly helpful to either party

[winter bobcat]

i didnt say it was helpful

i said it was funny

wraith can still wake

you just dont wake them

[grand cargo]

Vigor and scarlet woman?

[weak ingot]

all of these roles aren’t very productive vigorkills

[late ingot]

widow is fine? 2 poisons for one evil nightkill is a fine trade, imo

at least it's a fine trade on scripts with backloaded info

[winter bobcat]

you still have normal widow poison for any frontloaded info

[wary solstice]

Vig + Scarlet Woman can go hard if you have Boffin & Recluse

[winter bobcat]

imp at home

[wary solstice]

No. Because Vig with Boffin-Recluse can kill themself and still kill at night by registering as a Minion to themself

Now you have two murderous Demons, one that's undead and untouchable

[forest spindle]

We should have some vigor combinations next, its an interesting subject

[winter bobcat]

zombuul SW at home

[edgy socket]

Hello mortals

[winter bobcat]

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1421170033115009144
I mean you could bring up vigor here?

[forest spindle]

Saving that thread

[late ingot]

it's pretty quiet -- rn it's used as a place to go when you're feeling like secret-thing/yapping but not vibing with the current thread

[forest spindle]

12/06 Vigormortis X Spy

[edgy socket]

Good support minion

[coral jungle]

A little redundant, but not half bad. Maybe around 1/3 bad at worst

Vati's said pretty much what I'd say about this interaction.

[winter bobcat]

Wait if the dead spy registers as good/not a minion to something like say the oracle/a RK or smthg, do you lose the vigorpoison?

(assuming of course, that vigorpoison is actually real) [big assumption, ik]

Spy can also let you try to direct the droisoning a little more effectively, knowing which minions to nightkill to hit ongoing info roles

[edgy socket]

Every aspect of misregistration is separate -- you can register as a townsfolk to one ability and a minion to another on the same night

[winter bobcat]

but those aren't simultaneous, no?

Also, niche case, but you can use a spy (either living or dead) to toggle the vigpois from a minion neighbor to a TF on the other side

[spare hinge]

Spy can register differently to the Chef for different neighbors, which is about as simultaneous as you can get
misregistration can happen simultaneously in different ways in different places on the grim to different abilities

[winter bobcat]

[12/7]: Zenomancer x High Priestess

[obsidian trout]

"Hey so you know this quest I gave you? Here's exactly who you need to talk to to figure it out"

[late ingot]

huh

[frigid flower]

Too confirming

[sudden drift]

Will you send the HP to evils with quests too?

[wary solstice]

I've had an idea for a Zenomancer game, one that High Priestess would be... amusing in.

I send the High Priestess to people they can have a coherent conversation with

"I believe you should talk to the person who isn't speaking gobbly-gook the most"

[sudden drift]

I've heard of "Post Restriction Mafia," where every good-aligned player has a restriction like that

[wary solstice]

Half of the quests I thought up don't even need a "Don't tell anyone this task"... because how?

This is also possibly the worst Zenomancer quest to have to deal with in such a game:
"You are a Kenku, and can only say words in groups of three that has been previously said"

... Someone pointed out that the High Priestess maybe should be sent to such a person simply so the High Priestess can feed them the dictionary.

[unborn trellis]

They can just say whatever they want and challenge ST if ST claims that they said a word that's not previously said

[wary solstice]

This would be done in a text game

[unborn trellis]

o

[wary solstice]

So search function exists

I would never run the Kenku restriction in a live context unless I really trusted the player

[late ingot]

I'm not sure I have a lot to say about how these two characters interact, but I think I'll be using the Zenomancer sporadically as a way to engage new players. This is a role I'd previously seen some folks put on the High Priestess, which I don't particularly agree or disagree with?

[tranquil shale]

No no no even better: send them to the most goobly gocked player
I think they should talk to them the most because it'd be very funny

[twilit wedge]

High preistess is a fun way to add more storyteller agency to a high st agency loric

it can also create funny situations where the high priestess can be given info that throws wrenches in the works of players doing quests if you want to mess with your players

The recent loric releases to me scream "party gamemode" botc and this just kinda exemplifies the gimmick esque nature of them anyways

[stuck locust]

daily reminder that HP is a townsfolk

but other than that yeah I agree

[fringe mirage]

12/8: Engineer x Boomdandy

[late ingot]

pinging @viscid hatch

[twilit wedge]

“Hey guys, I made a bomb!”

Boomdandy is just a minion with no ability if you never execute

Ez

[real heron]

I think boomdandy is one of the characters whose presence on the script is a threat and it isn’t required to be in-play for that threat to exist. So I think engineer changing whether that threat exists isn’t super great for evil

Like, yes Engineer is a TF but also it changes the dynamics of a game in a way that is similar to (though less extreme as) minions like xaan, poisoner, SW, and the like

[coral jungle]

This depends heavily on the rest of the things on script, like almost every other engineer interaction.

[fringe mirage]

I figured that Boomdandy could be fine, since evil can exploit the fear of Boomdandy in or out of play.

Maybe risky to bluff as evil, since an exploison outs evil as lying

[coral jungle]

Simple, say you made a boomdandy

Since when did boomdandy actually help evil anyway? /s

[real heron]

Sure doesn’t help when you can’t frame your minion going into final 4 ;-;

[green fiber]

changing out of boom can be quite nice

don’t have to fear overzealous pleas to be executed

also a good minion play to activate the boomdandy

[graceful plume]

Works very well on TPOT since the threat of an Imp jump/chaos Hatter means you still can't disregard the new Boomdandy if they're outed

[late ingot]

tpot no longer has hatter, iirc?

I think it left about when Shab joined

[tawny haven]

TPOT has a Barber now

[viscid hatch]

It doesn't have Hatter yeah, which to be fair I keep on thinking Chaos Hatter would be ideal for TPOT to soften Damsel and also allow Ojo

Barber already allows for the Shab regurg reset

[viscid hatch]

It's peak.

[magic ferry]

good 👍

[late ingot]

Tpot ojo

[graceful plume]

Oops, but replace Hatter with Barber in everything I said and the same argument still holds

[wild bridge]

12/09 Cannibal X Barber

[obsidian trout]

Truth be told the evil team probably did their damage with the first barber swap

Even if the cannibal dies the next night what are they conceivably gonna do with a second?

[frigid flower]

More juggling damage i guess

[chilly cedar]

Barber is lowkey a headache to play against

2 Barber swaps from different sources might make good stop building worlds as much

[winter bobcat]

plus canni barber lets you swap the dead barber onto a living player

[coral jungle]

If the snake charmer was executed and you know who the barber & cannibal are you get another variation of the Barbershop shuffle.

Wait, it actually doesn't work.

Add another condition, the barber dies to a witch death

Or harpy

They just need to die in the day

[steady kernel]

Pretty much same thoughts as Vault, the worst kinds of Barber swaps (Demon changes late in the game) can be done with the first one

In scripts with these two I normally see the second swap (if used at all) being used to bring back useful Minion abilities, or shifting Minions around so the more helpful abilities are on less suspicious evil players

[winter bobcat]

12/10: Cerenovus x Slayer

[real heron]

You already did this lol #1399777176902963360 message

[winter bobcat]

my bad

fixed

[obsidian trout]

I mean

Theres not really much interacting going on lmao

[winter bobcat]

i mean i was thinking it was in the vein of wasting juggles, but slayer doesnt have a timeframe, you're right

[wild bridge]

Ceremadding the last good player as the Slayer in final three could be clever, where the player is encouraged to pantomime shooting the player they don't plan on nominating.

[tawny haven]

I'm killing a ceremad slayer before they can shoot if they try

[viscid hazel]

what does this do

[winter bobcat]

its barely noon what?

[weak ingot]

oh Whoopsie

[grand cargo]

** 12/11 x **

[real heron]

Second widow ping means a good bone collector can’t be convinced to bone collect an evil without a huge flag for it

[coral jungle]

No second ping is sent out as someone already "knows" the widow is in play iirc

[grand cargo]

Its odd that widow is “on your first night” inatead of “you start by”

[spice ferry]

Its the same

its just more clear with "On your first night"

[real heron]

‘On your first night’ is similar wording to Princess which is kinda interesting (and I prefer it for both Widow and Princess)

[real heron]

Well what’s the interactivity then?

[coral jungle]

You extend the poison one night I guess? IDK, there are better minions for this.

[summer adder]

its a new instance of the widow ability, so they see the grim again and can pick a different person to poison

[stuck locust]

yeah you basically get a poisoner night

[coral jungle]

12/12 Widow x Pit Hag

[obsidian trout]

If the widow poisoned player was a ysk or a opg you can just pithag the widow into something else

Well you could do it with any poisoned person but

A ysk or opg that has already spent isnt doing anything anymore

[stuck locust]

you can then turn yourself into the Widow or them back into the Widow to get another poison off with no extra announcement

so you could poison a YSK on N1 then a recurring info role on N3 or 4 depending on night order

[winter bobcat]

i dont believe that's true

widow went out of play, and then came back into play

so its a little different than the bone collection above

[stuck locust]

a good player already knows that a Widow is in play

so the condition is satisfied

[coral jungle]

Interesting thing to note is the pit hag loves having a grimpeeker calling the shots for them.

[sudden drift]

Pit-Hag / Widow gives a reason for a late Widow ping, so it pairs well with other reasons such as Goon, Hatter, Plague Doctor, Engineer.

[green fiber]

oh i have a fun one for tomorrow

also widow PH is strong but not broken imo

[twilit wedge]

Pithag is less likely to misfire and can also turn a opg or YSK into an ongoing information role in a ping game to bluff that they’re the poisoned role

Combine it with vigor for maximum paranoia

[fringe mirage]

Catfishing core

I've won a game as Imp where my Pit Hag made a Godfather into the Widow

[chilly cedar]

Catfishing core

I've won a game as Imp where my Pit Hag made a Godfather into the Widow

(this isn't a bit, I legitimately won in the same way)

[fringe mirage]

*spec @glad orbit

[pure raft]

You are now shadowing catofceiling

[edgy socket]

I've lost an Imp game as Godfather when my Pit-Hag made me into the Widow without asking then got starpassed to instead of me

[forest spindle]

12/13 Spy x Snake Charmer

[steady kernel]

I think it gives the Spy an interesting dilemma at the very least, of what they tell the Demon and whether they try to willingly convert the Snake Charmer late game, though despite having these two in a couple of games I haven’t actually seen anything super interesting happen yet

[winter bobcat]

you can also out the snarmer so there can't be a swap

[green fiber]

oh yeah as a spidow whenever i give the grim i always say the snarmer as an out of play non-bluff and then just hope they claim it

but it’s still tough

[unborn trellis]

It's much more fine in irl games

cuz spy only gives like less than half of the grim anyway

it's much much more fine with widow

cuz like widow forgets them anyway

or widow poison the sc

[steady kernel]

I remember like two games I’ve had with these two. The first one the Spy didn’t get to talk to the Demon D1 and the Snake Charmer was executed. So that solved that problem

And the second one the Spy chose a random powerful TF to claim the SC was to the Demon. So the Demon killed them N2

So unfortunately haven’t been able to see stuff get interesting. I think it has potential for some funny plays

[unborn trellis]

it has potential for funny plays that the spy want to work against

so it doesn't have

[coral jungle]

Interesting bonus interaction I don't thing anyone is mentioning, the spy is the third person to know if the snarmer hits the demon, which gives them time to sound the alarm to any other minions that the old demon isn't the demon anymore, and tell the snarmer everything. This also gives the spy an incentive to not give the demon the grim.

It's a weird interaction to be sure, but its not one I particularly hate.

[stuck locust]

yeah this interaction makes spies give fake grims to their demons which is fun

[magic ferry]

This one is really fun

[tawny haven]

@req good won 10p

[winter bobcat]

12/14: Golem x Yaggababble

[weak ingot]

makes golem more of an outsider

(good thing)

[late ingot]

Big fan of this one!

[real heron]

Headcanon home script interaction for the golem.

Unfortunately the golem isn’t interesting enough on a script (from my knowledge) for the script to be considered a ‘home script’ for it

[weak ingot]

harpy yagg golem is my headcanon script

[fervent basalt]

golem + yaggababble + harpy my beloved

[coral jungle]

RtC?

Warning, spoilers: ||I'm willing to bet Golem winds up on Tomb. Yag might show up there too.||

[tulip sage]

Golem and Yaggababble is a great interaction but ||i'm fairly certain all of the Tomb demons are loud||

[winter bobcat]

ofc they're loud, yag has to say the phrase publicly

and you gotta make sure the ST hears it

[weak ingot]

spoiler it

[graceful plume]

I love Golem Yag, but ||Golem is very much TT-coded and Yag not so much so I'd guess they don't share a homescript||

[weak ingot]

||why are you replying directly to the spoilered part of a message||

[tulip sage]

||Yaggababble's whole shtick is trying to stealthily say their phrase without it sounding too out-of-place in the convo, even if it is technically loud it's still not the same thing as THE ALHADIKHIA HAS CHOSEN BEN DO YOU WISH TO LIVE||

[wild bridge]

12/15 Psychopath X Zombuul

[obsidian trout]

On the one hand a psycho killing someone means the zombuul doesnt get a kill

But presumably you are running execution survival on script?

Idek where I'm going

[wild bridge]

Personally, I just like the idea of the Psychopath killing the Demon and the game not ending.

[late ingot]

The Zombuul here becomes a bit of a trophy wife in ways that are funny but maybe not fun...?

[wary solstice]

Basically makes the Psychopath the real star of the show with the benefits but the Zombuul has all the drawbacks, which doesn't sound fun

Zombuul has all the responsibilities but none of the agency.

[tawny haven]

I don't think it's particularly fun to be the Zombuul here yeah

[real heron]

I also think that town wanting to kill the psycho is not a huge priority (not that it usually is), so it basically neuters the appeal of psycho when the KPN stays at 1

So in terms of actual gameplay I don’t think it’s particularly interesting, even when excluding the fun aspect for the zombuul

[twilit wedge]

I would argue that this could be a bit better on the right script to mitigate the problem (plenty of good full sized Zombuul scripts have day survival) but I still think the problem exists even if it’s lessened
Additionally in a vacuum it basically becomes the psychopath game as stated which is super unfun for the Zombuul who is now even more of an evil outsider than it usually feels like in rough Zombuul games

[winter bobcat]

also considering the day prot zombuul likes, Psycho can basically become extra science

which can really hurt the evil team

[stuck locust]

also Psycho will be disincentivised from actually using their ability because it would close DA worlds

so pretty terrible interaction all around

[winter bobcat]

12/16: Golem x Witch

my initial thought is using the witch to prevent the golem from confirming itself

[obsidian trout]

What

If a witch cursed golem nominates a non demon they both die

[winter bobcat]

doesn't golem die first and so no longer has an ability

[obsidian trout]

No

[winter bobcat]

well then its an interesting harpy bluff

[obsidian trout]

#experimental-how-to-run message

[coral jungle]

These characters interact in that you can now add yaggababble.

[real heron]

They proc simultaneously

[real heron]

Yeah. Honestly, Witch/Yag is so cool imo

But that’s not what’s being discussed today

[coral jungle]

True true, but they otherwise don't interact in any meaningful way as far as I can see.

[real heron]

I mean, they interact in that the witch immediately solves the TPK golem problem for the good team :p

[viscid hazel]

if a witch cursed golem nominates the witch do they both die

[obsidian trout]

Yes

[spice ferry]

I see the logic. The nomination is instant on both accuser and accused.

[forest spindle]

12/17 Librarian Lunatic

[fringe mirage]

99% sure Harold Holt’s Revenge has these two

Good for snapping the Lunatic out on scripts with tools to keep the Lunatic blind for longer (Magician/PG)

otherwise, it’s kinda just standard Librarian shit

Tho the other good interaction is that’s is easier for a Demon or their Minions to bluff Librarian seeing the Lunatic.

So Lunatic also has to be a bit careful trusting their supposed Librarin

[green fiber]

on the best script ever Night Vision Goggles a BH turned Librarian can lead the lunatic on and it’s really funny

[chilly cedar]

That does sound like an iconic interaction

[tawny haven]

The Demon can always bluff Librarian seeing the Lunatic which makes this really fun imo (similarly, a Demon can always bluff Grandmother seeing the Lunatic on BMR)

[tawny haven]

but yeah also this, I've done it and it's hilarious

I've shown a Lunatic the evil Librarian seeing them and the Boomdandy as Minions

[edgy socket]

and then the game ended d1

[tawny haven]

shhhhhhh

they don't need to know that

[grand cargo]

Nvm there's a jinx i didn't see

[tulip sage]

do you have a different interaction in mind or can i take this one

[12/18]

Pacifist x Leviathan

[grand cargo]

Leviathan doesn't care about dying from execution

[tulip sage]

ye, the Pacifist ability still confirms the executed player tho

[spice ferry]

I think its fun.. generally speaking players don't really execute often in leviathan games, so if someone claims paci it might push for that 1 execution.

[still sedge]

It’s cool

[coral jungle]

This is an interesting push your luck interaction. Trading two confirmations for only having one shot at killing the demon. I think this is very count dependant, so I'm not sure on it. At one minion it seems just oppressively strong. Also, please don't let evil bluff a confirmed one. If you have DA on your Leviathan script, what are you doing?

[winter bobcat]

double tapping in levi doesn't count as separate exes right?

like for the losscon

[coral jungle]

*role leviathan

[pure raft]

Leviathan (Demon) - Experimental

If more than 1 good player is executed, evil wins. All players know you are in play. After day 5, evil wins.

**Affects Setup: **False

[coral jungle]

I don't think so.

But the thing with Leviathan+DA is it becomes just protect the demon day 5

And town doesn't really have much time to deal with a DA.

[winter bobcat]

that's why you just exe the demon d1

ez

[coral jungle]

Anyway, to be the no fun allowed guy, this just seems way too powerful for good in low player counts.

[still sedge]

“Town invest ping” on lack of proc or “hey you have 1 more execution”

[coral jungle]

Think of Virgin on TB. It works at low player counts because you just have less time to gather info AND Spy is on script to temper it.

[still sedge]

Now you have 2 executions

[coral jungle]

This is effectively a Virgin but you get 5 days with 9 players.

[still sedge]

And you spend 1 to confirm a player

[coral jungle]

Oh, and the townsfolk survives. That too

[winter bobcat]

two

[still sedge]

Basically it’s virgin but on 5p

With no counters

[coral jungle]

And you have 3x more time to gather info

This thing is stupid powerful.

[still sedge]

And wayyy more demon candidates

[coral jungle]

Not really, you just eliminated a good quarter of the grim

[still sedge]

And the other 7 players?

Which you can only kill 1?

[coral jungle]

Well, whoever survived is guareenteed good. And they survived. So they can still get info

Which you can trust is at least truthful

[still sedge]

For what, one day?

[coral jungle]

For FOUR!

[still sedge]

you should not be random killing with pacifist d1

[coral jungle]

Tldr, this needs spy

[still sedge]

let’s give the minion a free execution!

Such a good idea

[coral jungle]

Otherwise it's just a virgin on steroids.

At anywhere from 7-9 players

[still sedge]

This isn’t that broken when people can just bluff it and waste an execution

Of which you have

2 goods, one of which gets executed

[coral jungle]

It's not a very easy bluff. You get put into a hard conflict with another player, narrowing worlds severely

[still sedge]

And there’s one execution to find the demon

If town is wrong whatsoever they lose

[coral jungle]

Ok, fair.

But if it hits, good luck evil

You will probably need it

[still sedge]

There is still 1 execution to hit the demon

[coral jungle]

Of which you can now eliminate 2 players, then use their info to eliminate maybe 2 more

If we're being frugal

[still sedge]

3-5 and you have 1

Droison exists as well

[coral jungle]

This needs to be tempered heavily to be balanced on low counts, in other words.

You need Spy, and a heaping of droison

So TB

[still sedge]

Again, you have a 33/33/33

[coral jungle]

You basically need TB

[still sedge]

In 7p with your reasoning

and droison exists

[coral jungle]

That's the odds for a normal demon, but in a normal 7 player game, people die and there's less info

[still sedge]

And that’s debatable

[coral jungle]

In other words, evil is completely f***ed

[still sedge]

Because if the saved player can be poisoned, it’s not confirmatory

Like, oh no false info

[coral jungle]

Ok, we are in agreement then

You need Spy, and you need poisoner

[still sedge]

It doesn’t need spy

Virgin in leviathan is the same shit but slightly worse

and yet virgin is generally “not helpful”

[coral jungle]

Virgin is very helpful. For similar reasons

[still sedge]

not in leviathan it isn’t

[coral jungle]

Yes it is. You hard confirm two players

[still sedge]

Wasting an execution early is fucking crazy in any case

Let’s confirm a player who might be confirmed later anyway

Very helpful game

Instead of just

Killing demon candidates

And saving a demon candidate

[coral jungle]

Ok, maybe that's true. That doesn't make it any better. Surviving execution is more powerful than you are considering. Let's take HHR for example. HHR is built, as most leviathan scripts are, on running info. Running info is info that is very poweful but takes multiple days to parce out. So stuff like Savant, Town Crier, Dreamer, and Balloonist. The evil team needs to poke holes in the running info, build worlds where alternate explainations exist, and most importantly, ensure almost everyone is a legitimate evil candidate. Pacifist screws with this wildly at low counts. If the pacifist procs on a running info role, you have two players who are no longer evil candidates and one who is guaranteed to be getting good info. This forces evil to build around these worlds, worlds with often will be poiting to them. Dreamer and Balloonist in particular are very deadly. The only form of targeted droison evil has available to them in Leviathan is Poisoner, which is notoriously bad with running info. That on top of the fact anyone who was pushing to be Paci confirmed is probably not a demon, and the fact that DA just fundamentally doesn't work with Leviathan, leaves Spy as the only valid way to temper this. You. Need. Spy.

Also, running info is basically the only way to make a Leviathan script. Front loaded like TB gets solved quickly as evil just can't handle that much info right out the gate, they need time to plan. And BMR... we all know how bad deathmod is with Leviathan.

[tawny haven]

I think I prefer King for "things to incentivize execution in Leviathan", but Pacifist is interesting if it's not confounded and serves as a double Virgin

(I imagine it could be a bit sad to be a D/A in a Leviathan game)

[edgy socket]

if you protect the demon d5 you inescapably autowin and it's trivial to do so, is the issue

[weak ingot]

Pacifist is fine in Leviathan, if a bit does-nothing

Pacifist executions still count toward 1 good player, so it is effectively the evil test character