#Beginner and pick-up having no distinction is pointless

117 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

amber dust
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As of right now, new players can suggest TB in both beginner and Pickup. As for as I understand, storytellers can also run only base 3 in pickup.

Therefore, there’s really no true difference between beginner and pickup. I believe the only difference is that in pickup, the storyteller doesn’t have to poll snv or bmr along side TB.

My suggestion is to give the 2 channels their own identity by making beginner channel ONLY base 3, and pickup only custom (or maybe they have to poll b3 + custom).

I believe this will be beneficial for new players (always having a safe space and a healthy environment to try other base 3), storytellers (being allowed to creatively unfold) and the whole player base.

It will mean that storytellers can force people to play customs, but also mean storytellers won’t be disappointed by once again having to run TB in pickup because there’s a new player suggesting it again and again.

It also lets veteran players, who don’t like the more explosive characters (looking at you wizard) have a safe space in beginner.

Strong and defined distinctions between the two channels will lead to less disappointment for everyone in my opinion.

vast jungle
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#live-game-announcements message have you not seen this one, this is only after polling but point still kinda stands

smoky berry
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Disagree. Sometimes you want to play newbie friendly customs in beginner, sometimes there's no beginners in beginner and you want to play whatever, and sometimes vets hate all the customs being posted in pickup and you want to play TB.

sudden estuary
# amber dust As of right now, new players can suggest TB in both beginner and Pickup. As for ...

I completely agree with the premise but disagree with the solution. My take would be just remove the new player right to request TB or base in the pickup game and remove the need to poll base 3 in the pickup queue (however I would add a note to say that if a player requests that a base 3 script be in the poll then it can't be vetoed).

That would be my solution but a lot of people will disagree with me. I also disagree with the proposed solution but I think this is a problem.

smoky berry
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^ Totally disagree with that, it's against the aims of the server and the best interests of growing the hobby

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It also needs acknowledgement that merged queues happen a lot

sudden estuary
smoky berry
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I think it's not inclusive

sudden estuary
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There would always be an inclusive beginner friendly game running

smoky berry
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Except there often isn't

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So we need the merged to default to beginner, and everyone to know to default to that (which they don't always remember atm)

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and it sucks for someone to be slow responding to a ping, beginner to have started and them get told "hey, you can't play for two hours unless you play a hell script"

sudden estuary
smoky berry
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As always, if you want to guarantee customs, or if there are STs who would feel TB is a "disappointment", that's what scheduled games are for.

sudden estuary
smoky berry
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In that sort of situation, I think it's absolutely fine to say "You're welcome to play, but so you know the beginner friendly game is on final 3 so will be ending imminently. It's your call, but you might find it to be a better experience up there" imo

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so long as it's not actively excluding people, it's fine to apprise them of their options

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but that's in the situation where it is imminent

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and i don't think that should take away the possibility of newbie veto etc. in pickup to do it

sudden estuary
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OK, then what about when there are 2 games running and both are forced TB multiple times due to new players playing multiple games in both?

smoky berry
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I'd like to see data suggesting that both games being forced TB multiple times in a row happens with any sort of regularity

sudden estuary
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The server is being new layer accessible by prioritising the new player in the merged queue... In the split queue I think it is wrong to say that the server is being unwelcoming to new players by only having one game with the beginner player rules

smoky berry
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And I disagree.

sudden estuary
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I think this is an example of why the server has a problem with long term player retention rates

smoky berry
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If it does have a problem with that, I think it's likely a more complex issue than TB getting played a lot. In my experience, behaviour of other players is a far bigger issue shrug

sudden estuary
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That may be true... But multiple people have come to the suggestion thread to say the same thing and say it would help so I think it is fair to hear them out. I also think that saying that there should always be a space for beginners but that if there are lots of players there should be a space for non-beginners to go to is not an inherently 'beginner unfriendly' attitude

amber dust
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I think there is space for beginners, with them having a right to request a singular script, as one individual. Whereas in every other scenario it defaults to majority wins. I dont understand why beginners also should have that right in pickup. If thats the case, i think you shouldnt have beginner or pickup, and just "Town square 1 and 2"

sudden estuary
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I like to think that people on the server do not see me as someone who is not welcoming to new players. I regularly ST new player games and find it very enjoyable and if there is a split I often choose to stay in the beginner game and play with the new players.

I think that this is an important discussion that is raised in many levels by lots of experienced players on the server. I think that it also also actively inclusive towards beginner players to make a space that more experienced players can choose to go to instead of beginner games.

I have spectated many games where new players have been prematurely made a jump towards scripts that are too advanced for their level. By this I do not mean that they are playing stupid crazy customs, it might just be a jump to SNv before they are ready. The main reason I have seen for this is new players trying to fit in and not feel like they are holding others back.

In many cases this has been due to inappropriate actions by the more experienced players and that would not be a focus of this suggestion as that is already against the rules. But as just one example, having players show up to the pickup game and excitedly talk about their scripts (which is something we should be encouraging on the server) makes new players feel pressured. I think a powerful tool in removing that pressure would be to be able to say to the new player "this is a beginner game and anyone who does not want to play this kind of game will happily wait for the other pickup game".

This is one of many examples. It would come at a cost of having some new players wait a little longer for a game but that is OK. At the moment experienced players are on some nights being locked out of non-beginner games. Being a "beginner friendly" server does not mean "beginner friendly at the expense of any and everyone else".

Something I have seen when discussing this, and I have discussed this a lot, is a complete lack of acknowledgement for the experience of an experienced player who does not want to play a beginner game. Even if someone is arguing in favour of keeping the system as it is now should be acknowledging this flaw. It does not mean that their argument for the current system is wrong, but failure to acknowledge the problem is doing a disservice to a large portion of out community.

sudden estuary
# amber dust I think there is space for beginners, with them having a right to request a sing...

I agree that renaming of the channels could be a useful tool. Another suggestion I would have would be to keep the "Beginner Friendly Town Square" and rename pick and extra to "extra" and "extra extra". We can say that if there is one game going then it should be being run in the beginner friendly VC's and that way there is always an accessible game happening at any point a game is being run.

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Any solution to this will have its own problems, but just to say that "X proposed solution has Y problem and therefore shouldn't happen" is to also deny that the current system has its own problems. so any discourse about how to handle this should be acknowledging the current problems and the problems of any proposed solution and weighing them against each other.

indigo reef
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The server has always been transient; I am not sure its a problem that can be fixed, or should be fixed. I don't believe conflating these two issues (retention and [N] powers) is fair. Sure this suggestion isn't about [N], but we can see how it is.

My opinions on that are quite famously said elsewhere at length. Pickup should be experienced friendly. [N] should not get veto rights there. I think the current rules are fine though. My only change is that upon a split, the ST that wants to run customs should be going to pickup.

shell barn
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I just want to say as a new player that the words "beginner friendly" being in the title of channels can be enough of a difference to persuade a nervous newbie on whether they press down that left click on the mouse button and dare to join a channel with a lot of potentially insular strangers in it. (n=1 but it helped for me) the idea of making a clearer delineation between the two doesn't sound abhorrent either, though. Veterans should feel like they can express their skill and expand their experience of their hobby <3. Take my piece with a pinch of salt though as i'm inexperienced on what helps keep people around :).

sudden estuary
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I think this is extremely vlid and I think that the server should make it a rule taht at all times if there is a game going then there is a game going in beginner

unborn crane
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Scheduleds in beginner friendly

indigo reef
ruby cedar
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I assumed it was already like how ppl are suggesting

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Where pickup us more for intermediate-advanced players

indigo reef
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Id say it is because experienced players and new players are often playing in the same space, because the queue is merged 20-40% of the time - and game length can cause new players to land in pickup quite often as well.

smoky berry
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Also games are two hours and we don't necessarily want newbies to feel they have to wait even longer to join in so they don't just bounce off the server

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Sven literally just said about game length....it does help if I read the entire post before adding my own point....

indigo reef
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My wife femsplains for me all the time too, I'm used to it.

snow spade
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unpopular opinion but just have BF being base 3 only and pick up be TB+ at least 1 other base+ any script either asked for a polled for with merged queue how it is now

unborn crane
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did you drink?

vast jungle
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Unpopular opinion but don’t separate it into beginner and pickup, have it be ravenswood bluff and crows wood bluff or something like that

young violet
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Just a thought: Say, we no longer allowed new players to request tb in pickup/extra. We could have a system where that new(er) player still plays the more complicated script, however they have a backpacker with them. This would be a more experienced player who would help them. The backpacker would be in their DM with the storyteller to explain everything that is happening with them and answer any questions. They would go through the script with the newer player before the game. When in the game, the newer player would be the one talking, but the newer player would have the right to ask their backpacker for advice before responding to anything (probably via dm), like how if you are being interrogated in real life you have the right to ask your lawyer for advice before answering anything. If a backpacker could not be found for the newer player, an easier script would have to be played.

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That idea probably needs adjusting and fleshing out, but maybe it is something? Idk, I think ye might have to have some of whatever fakeharry has had to think it is a good idea 😭

hearty flicker
young violet
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Text games are great and more livevoicers should play them! Both livetext and longtext are really interesting

hearty flicker
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I will say I think backpackers might not work super well in Livevoice Games - in a Long Text game there might be enough time for like a 10-15 minute sidebar with a backpacker, it might slow down Livevoice games significantly though if those sidebars happen often

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While being interrogated that is

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answering questions about night actions/mechanics is fine

young violet
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Yeah it definitely would slow the game down a bit, and there would have to be time limits on how long the newer player could spend getting things explained in dms while they are in a private chat etc, but it would be a way to avoid the constant tb we have now and the problem of newer players being forced out of games that we would have if we stopped allowing them to request tb outside of beginner, both of which are legitimate problems.

indigo reef
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Co-STs are already painful for game length. Not on board with that idea.

smoky berry
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I'd rather we just kept to "hey, you're new, let's make sure you play a script that you can understand" rather than trying to get a brand newbie to work out dming two new people at once.

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Also, I think newbie friendly customs are entirely appropriate for beginner friendly when the lobby has a bit of experience

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I think issues would be solved by making the server a more friendly and welcoming place meaning that we have a split going more often.

hearty flicker
sudden estuary
hearty flicker
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but that in itself is a whole other issue

sudden estuary
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I think this is an issue that isn't really important anymore given all the other issues resulting in this being a server where games rarely reach split numbers and is inactive half the day

smoky berry
snow spade
smoky berry
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like, the server has got bigger but there are fewer games so if it ain't a community issue, what else could it be

smoky berry
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though I might be too optimistic there considering some STs

snow spade
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you see too many sts already doing a customs poll before they have even put on an st tag. then normally with only like 2/3 votes already asking for customs within the first min without doing any check in with N tags

smoky berry
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I think guidance is to get the poll going, then ask directly with new players while the poll is running

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but also, guidance is to check in directly and explain options, not to go "is anyone requesting TB or base 3?"

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and still I see people not explaining what that means

young violet
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Yeah as an ST you have to ask all new players directly. It also is important to emphasise that as an ST, you want to know exactly how they feel about playing something other than tb or playing a custom. Many new players don't feel comfortable requesting tb or base three. If a new player says they are okay with anything, I usually will ask them how many games they have played if I have no idea, and if it is much less than ten I will encourage tb. It is important though, I believe, to not force tb on new players who truly are okay with something different.

hearty flicker
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I don't think forcing new players to play TB was ever suggested?

young violet
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It was not suggested, I just kind of went on a rant about accommodating new players 😭

sudden estuary
smoky berry
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Can we force STs to run TB for their first ten games? 🙂

young violet
vast jungle
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@indigo reef we need your co-st opinions

snow spade
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not sven but cost are normally not great on this server, people either try and force themselves to be making the decisions for the st or it drags out an already long night phase for a 10 min discussion on each decision that needs to be made .Cost should check the grim for anything wrong and be there to answer questions for how to run a character.

young violet
indigo reef
# vast jungle <@219044247020503041> we need your co-st opinions

||I am the crazy old uncle at the family gathering that all the young cousins know that if they bring up [the thing] that old crazy uncle will rant and rant about [the thing] and make the younglings cackle with glee watching the love and hope for life drain out of the faces of all the adults in the room.||
Having previously received a ban for ||(my behaviour) ||popping off on in a game that got to day two after two hours, I'm pretty against experienced Co-ST's coaching a new ST. A Co-ST should only ever be a new ST looking to shadow an experienced ST. ||As I continue to drink at this metaphorical party, you might learn that I'm against all Co-STing but have to take a moderate road because Sober crazy old uncle knows that the world that already hates me would actually have a reason to if I didn't take a moderate position.||

smoky berry
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Ahem beloved crazy old uncle!

sudden estuary
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I am in agreement with Sven, but would summarise my views on Co-ST's slightly differently. Firstly, there should (in my opinion) never be conversation between ST and Co-ST except in the situation where a mistake has already been made and a fix needs to be implemented. Co-ST's in my opinion (and I think this aligns with Sven, but please correct me) should just be there to observe. This can be new ST's who want to learn or more experienced ST's spectating newer ones. In these circumstances the ST should be dictating their decisions but not discussing them. If you can't run a game without input from a Co-ST then you need a bit more practise goldfishing the app.

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There are ST's I know that discuss their setups and information with ST's and come to group consensus etc. Every single time this leads to longer nights, increasing proportionally with the number of people discussing. This is not just limited to Co-ST's, specs in ST consult are just as liable to this. As said above, there are known ST's who do this and that means that when it comes to playing in their games on scripts like SNV many players are able to predict the extremely long nights well in advance. This also increases the power of meta in the game. The length of time it takes information to be given allows many players to infer information about what characters are on the grim by timing the information they receive against total night time, even if they are not trying to do this. The classic example is the mathematician in SNV who receives their number and then the day doesn't start for another 5 minutes due to ST's/Co-ST's discussing savant info (and also generally messing around in ST consult). These examples of time limits are not exaggerations of some games on the server. It's harmful for both player experience as well as game mechanics and meta.

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So I agree with what has been said above by Harry and Sven, but I would also expand this to any specs that are in the ST consult too. It boils my blood when I am speccing a game and people are complaining about long nights and hop into ST consult only to hear the ST and others having social conversations and jokes and discussing minutiae of every piece of information.

shell barn
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I don't think it would be actionable, well received or entirely sane to put a ban on ST's talking to their Co-ST. Nor do I think there will ever be a consensus to remove Co-ST's from being allowed on the server altogether as they are an accessibility tool and contribute to a sense of inclusion to the ST side of BotC.

Concerns and frustrations with overly long nights due to excessive chatter and back and forth are valid frustrations - I think the most logical way to encourage correct use of Co-STing would be to produce a document of guidance and standards of what people should be expected to have done prior to trying to ST or Co-ST which should include a suitable amount of self-learning. If someone requests to ST or Co-ST or puts on a Co-ST tag maybe the bot could link to this document or thread. Making standards transparent feels like the most reasonable first step to encourage culture shift.

sudden estuary
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I don't think anyone is suggesting putting a ban on ST's talking to Co-ST's

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I think we are all just saying that it very easily goes too far and people need to be aware of that

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There's nothing wrong wit having a chat with people as you run a game

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As long as it isn't slowing you down (in the ways stated above)

shell barn
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I think it's great to make that clarification, since someone reading that in a thread for server suggestions could easily get the wrong impression, good to focus on actionable ideas generally instead I think.

young violet
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Yeah I think the big thing is there is a difference between, say, discussing what savant statements you are going to give with specs/ a co st while you are running a night/waiting for a player response, versus actively "pausing" the night to discuss something. Taking five minutes to think of savant info is absurd.

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Also, what do you mean by "goldfishing the app" huff? Do you mean like making a fake grim and running a mock game?

sudden estuary
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This is server-suggestions not server-rules-suggestions

sudden estuary
# young violet Also, what do you mean by "goldfishing the app" huff? Do you mean like making a ...

Yes. Making a fake grim and practising making players, assigning characters, running actions and running noms. In the absence of a mistake having already been made if players are struggling running a script then really it's that they have taken on something more complicated than they are ready to run or that they are lacking in confidence. If they are lacking confidence then having someone sitting there listening to what they are doing will give them reassurance. If they are out of their depth then in my experience it's just best for them to keep the game moving and players will still have fun and then next time just run something simpler.

young violet
indigo reef
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The willingness for mods to make changes in that space is zero. Aint worth discussing imo.

sudden estuary
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If we act like they are a group of people that will look at server suggestions, consider them and act on them appropriately, then if they do do that the server becomes a better place and if they don't then that's on them and we can clearly see who is responsible

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If people aren't doing their jobs making changes, don't give them the cop out of "oh well people aren't suggesting things, we didn't know what to do, we thought everything was fine". Make suggestions and engage and then it's very clear where the system is tragically falling apart

young violet
sudden estuary
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Case in point: the live rules revamp. Multiple people have offered to take over the rewrite, mods said no. Multiple people are in the rules rewrite ticket and have had wuick deadlines for turnarounds on reviews which have been ignored. It's quite clear where the problem lies.

young violet
sudden estuary
young violet
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I don't think that minions should do stuff like tickets, but minions could help with stuff like rules updates, storyteller resources, etc

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On a voluntary basis

sudden estuary
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I agree with pulling it from community members, just not necessarily calling it "minion" responsibilities (I think we agree on everything, just not calling it minion work). There was a big problem before I stepped down as minion with people trying to use the minion role as a form of authority and trying to make them into "mini mods" which was not well received.

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There is also a difference between people wanting to help out with community work and people who want to be a minion. For example I would happily help out with server development work but do not want to be a minion, so I think making them separate would be a good thing.

young violet
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You are right

smoky berry
sudden estuary
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The live rules rewrite was supposed to happen a year ago. Some of us approached the mods in the summer and asked if it would be helpful if we took over actioning it with their oversight and we were told there was no need as it was basically done. It's still not here and we got so many responses to tickets saying that "they didn't know it was against the rules so there is going to be no further action" that we also basically just stopped ticketing.

dusk knot
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honestly I would like there to just be more of a difference because it feels like the beginner games channel is filled with people who are not beginners. Every game I play feels like the game gets railroaded with this "lets just kill someone every night so the faster we are at 3-4 people the faster we choose the demon" playstyle that just isn't fun. I don't like being the demon and just cold killed day 1 because of random executions that have nothing to do with info, and I don't like being a good role that just gets executed just because. And it feels like everyone plays like this

indigo reef
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The new player scheduled games might be more for your then. Certainly there isn't a right nor wrong way to play the game, but killing people every day is one of the more established axioms.

dusk knot
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that's my point though, this is happening in what is supposed to be the beginner channel