#Of Dreams and Nightmares

1460 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

tall dust
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Clay Painter (Townsfolk)

Once per game, at night, choose between Rocketeer, Submariner, or Tanker: a good character becomes that character until they use up its ability.

Tanker (Townsfolk)

Once per game, at night, choose that any players who would or will interact with you that night to be drunk. [Not in the bag, can only be summoned by the Clay Painter]

Submariner (Townsfolk)

Once per game, at night, choose a character: they are sober and healthy that night. [Not in the bag, can only be summoned by the Clay Painter]

Rocketeer (Townsfolk)

Once per game, at night, choose a player: if they can inflict drunk or poison, they are drunk tonight. [Not in the bag, can only be summoned by the Clay Painter]

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There - now it doesn't instantly confirm at the start

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And good can always revert back to mask that off

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Now... Hell

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Uhhh

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Illustrator is insta confirm so

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My friend said it seems to be like the Dreamer

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Twice per game, at night, pick a player: you learn 3 characters they could be, one of them is out of play.

grave cloak
tall dust
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The CP can choose to trigger it at any night instead of being forced to pick from the start

grave cloak
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yeah but. it's still confirmation

grave cloak
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dreamer is very bluffable if evil has a way of gaining information, and is decently bluffable in other ways

grave cloak
tall dust
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We'll see how these four roles work in playtesting. Brain hurts

tall dust
grave cloak
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artist is literally right there

tall dust
grave cloak
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oh I'm not suggesting actually using artist

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that character's overpowered

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but it's a good framework

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"paint themed" doesn't really mean anything meaningful, mechanically speaking

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the closest we have is tying it to artist

tall dust
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The character this role is based on... is an artist, actually. I just didn't want to cop out and use Artist immediately
Her ability is related to painting enemies, objects, etc

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Which is why I think "what if they just go sightseeing and then paint someone..."

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...w a i t

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Twice per game, at night, pick a player: you learn 3 characters the first player interacts with them could be, one of them is out of play.

grave cloak
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Each night, choose a player: You learn the first other character to choose them tonight (arbitrary if none).

tall dust
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Okay that is better YIPPEE

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Alright let's get Skeptic-al!

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Each night*, you learn if a Minion voted on the player executed today.

dense zealot
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A no is 10x more powerful than a yes

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So this on script will mean that a minion will bite the bullet so that they always get a Yes

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This doesn’t work with town_crier Town Crier because of witch Witch and also, the amount of nominators will be lower

tall dust
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Skeptic, after all. Skeptical. They think something's off.

tall dust
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...actually

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I might use Mathematician in exchange for the Skeptic instead

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might

tall dust
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This seems to be a little freeform, but what do you guys think?

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Prince needs a lot of fixing too

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Each day*, choose a player (not the same as last day): you and that player are safe from the demon, but said player does not act tonight. Once per game, during the day, you may choose to tell the Storyteller that you want to act on the chosen player's behalf instead that night.

grave cloak
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that could mean anything, up to and including voting on the player

tall dust
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But if we say "votes" it'd be like

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Again like someone pointed out

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The answer is almost always "yes"

grave cloak
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yes, but if you say "played a part in today's execution" what does that even mean

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how are you, as a player, going to know which players that counts

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are you the player and the ST going to have the same idea as to what that means?

tall dust
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Hmm...

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Would a mathematician work instead?

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*role mathematician

chrome jayBOT
# tall dust *role mathematician
Mathematician (Townsfolk) - Sects & Violets

Each night, you learn how many players' abilities worked abnormally (since dawn) due to another character's ability.

**Affects Setup: **False

tall dust
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Each night, you learn how many players' abilities are affected by drunk and poison (since dawn) due to another character's ability.

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Something like this?

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Or... Uhm...

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Each night*, you learn how many evil players voted on the player executed today.

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Or if we want to go a bit deeper...

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Each night*, you guess how many evil players voted on the player executed today. If correct: you learn unique information to help your team.

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What exactly is unique information though?

grave cloak
grave cloak
grave cloak
grave cloak
tall dust
grave cloak
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I'm a fan of spice trader(TBA), which tells you how many evils voted today, but if you would ever learn a 0, you're instead drunk for the rest of the game

tall dust
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Hmmm...

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Downsides:

  • Not the first night (obviously)
  • ...maybe every two nights as opposed to every single night...?
  • If you ever learn a zero you get insomnia the next night (so you skip turn the following night and you know this?)
  • Add to the droisoning hell - maybe like Mimic, a random player (could be anyone, not limited to good ones) goes drunk each night, once yourself?
grave cloak
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not the first night should never be a downside, it just means the ability has no way to function n1

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and the reasoning for the specific downside of spice trader is that, by a significant margin, the strongest information you can learn with something like this is that zero evil players voted

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because then it goes from broad worldbuilding information to just hardclearing a large number of players

tall dust
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Still I don't want to completely copy that

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What if

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Each night*, you learn how many evil players voted on the player executed today. If you ever learn a zero, the demon knows who you are.

grave cloak
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that's likely to end up with just this player being killed after getting their massively confirmatory info, which further confirms their info

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how about

Each night*, you learn how many evil players voted on today's execution. If you would learn a 0, you are drunk until dusk instead.

tall dust
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...can you give me Spice Trader, as comparison? Why do they get "drunk for the rest of the game"?

grave cloak
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that's not the spice trader wording, for the record

grave cloak
tall dust
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Oh, so the difference is Skeptic only gets info if a player was executed that day, and Spice Trader learns... Everything even if the execution doesn't pass through? Got it

grave cloak
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similarly, I made skeptic only get drunk for a day if they would get a 0

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appropriately, they always think an evil player is behind every execution

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they're just not always right

tall dust
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That should work for the character I think - Tiff is smart and observant, but can be very overprotective...?

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Let me check, I KNOW in the anime she was Kirby's caretaker and was the only sane one

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Sounds about right... Wait Mathematician fits here LMFAO

Screenshot_2025-01-09-06-27-40-795-edit_com.android.chrome.jpg Screenshot_2025-01-09-06-27-56-347-edit_com.android.chrome.jpg
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Still, I like having the Skeptic in

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...oh god

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To justify this without using Mathematician

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Perhaps

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Each night, choose a player: if that player is executed today learn how many evil players voted for it. If you would learn a 0, you become drunk until dusk instead.

grave cloak
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would be an en, not an en*

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also, it's really hard to get a specific execution to happen, this doesn't need any further downside

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(and without that downside it's still rather weak)

tall dust
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I was going to say expand the range to neighbours but

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Hmmmmmmm

grave cloak
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Each night, choose a player: you learn how many players voted on your last choice today. If you would learn a 0, you are drunk until dusk.

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(probably not exceptionally fun in practice)

tall dust
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Yeah no that sucks

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Each night*, you learn how many evil players voted on the good player executed today. If you ever learn a zero, the demon knows who you are.

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This might be too strong

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Wait tf I should have copied the stabler version

grave cloak
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good player executed today?

tall dust
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Each night*, if the executed player today is good, you learn how many evil players voted on it. If you would learn a 0, you are drunk until dusk instead.

grave cloak
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is there any particular reason you want to buff this to being an undertaker too

tall dust
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I don't think I have an idea... I just want to try and deviate a bit

Oh well, we can use the original

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Again, balancing flavour and mechanics are hard LMFAO

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cries in expansions Problems for Future Learner

grave cloak
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there's a reason my general suggestion for top down design is to always prioritize mechanics

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there's generally a lot wider space to make flavor work for a specific design, than to make a design work for a specific flavor

tall dust
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@grave cloak IF I discard Clay Painter and its associated roles from the base game
And toss the Prince in as an ability-changing role
Would it wreck balance further?

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I am considering tossing Clay Painter and all those roles into a different expansion instead due to how 'special' they are

tall dust
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...let's go back to this for the Prince, actually...

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Each night, choose a good character: you register as that role for the night and gain the ability. If this character is out-of-play, you become drunk.

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Also:
Assistant (Townsfolk)

Each night, choose a player: you identify a part of their ability (ex. can inflict droison, interacts with special effects, protects others, etc).
-# So long as a reflected laser doesn't hit the reactor, it will be invincible... I-I hope. Wait, I shouldn't said that!

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Also, deleting the Clay Painter and its associated roles - they will be in a future expansion

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Commentator (Townsfolk)

Each night*, pick a player: you learn if the player is inflicted with any special effects that night (ex. droison, insomnia, etc).
-# This battle's heating up, and the crowd is going wiiild- Oooooh that was so closeeeeee... nevermind this is massacre I'm so sorry- Wait, no, actually, what just happened?! I have no idea!

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I considered replacing it with Town Crier, but man, Commentator is such a good role name

grave cloak
grave cloak
grave cloak
runic needle
runic needle
tall dust
runic needle
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I think some of the issues i have with some of the characters are mostly because of wording

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which is fine since that can be refined

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the intention is what matters

tall dust
tall dust
runic needle
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no its fine

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it takes practice

tall dust
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I don't know how exactly to call them

runic needle
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states

tall dust
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But I'm considering changing the Commentator anyway because I think with the lore it'd better to be like

tall dust
grave cloak
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how do you define it in such a way that a player will know at a glance which effects it does and doesn't include

grave cloak
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because they need a bluff that in some way relates to their evil character, or else this just tells a player you're evil

tall dust
grave cloak
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for an easy example of how that kind of ability can go wrong, imagine 2 steel defenders protecting eachother

tall dust
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BAHAHAHAHAHA

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Soldier moment

knotty berry
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having multiple copies of the same ability in play can also be a problem for night order, if you don't define it well

tall dust
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I'll try something different

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For Commentator

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Commentator (Townsfolk)

Each night*, pick an alive player: you learn if evil nominated them today.
-# This battle's heating up, and the crowd is going wiiild- Oooooh that was so closeeeeee... Wait, no, actually, what just happened?! I have no idea!

grave cloak
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"nominated for them"?

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do you just mean nominated them?

tall dust
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Oops

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Wait should it be nominated them or vote for their execution

knotty berry
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thats a lot of ST admin if run in person

grave cloak
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yeah, it's a lot to remember

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and also nominated is just a cop

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which is really, really strong

tall dust
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Yeah no it's supposed to be vote like Town Crier

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So Town Crier but for a single person I think

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Idk if that's too weak

grave cloak
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town crier isn't vote?

tall dust
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Wait no yeah

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I mean Town Crier but they focus on votes instead and it's hyperfocused on one person

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The Commentator commentates over battles after all

grave cloak
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that's a lot of ST bookkeeping every day

tall dust
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Okay let's nerf that

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Commentator (Townsfolk)

You start by choosing a player. Each night*, learn if an evil player voted on them today.
-# This battle's heating up, and the crowd is going wiiild- Oooooh that was so closeeeeee... Wait, no, actually, what just happened?! I have no idea!
Reminder token: Commentator's Champion

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There, so the ST doesn't die having to put the tokens

grave cloak
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You start by choosing a player. Each night*, learn if an evil player voted on them today.

tall dust
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Yeah

grave cloak
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definitely strong information, probably not unreasonably strong?

tall dust
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If it's too strong though, how do we nerf this?

knotty berry
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i was gonna say it feels pretty weak which means it might be balanced lol

grave cloak
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well, it runs into an issue of being relatively easy to make strong cop information

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but that takes active town coordination

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and thus, revealing yourself

knotty berry
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i think "there is an evil among 3~6 people" (depending on player count and such) is pretty weak. getting a no is definitely strong though

grave cloak
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that's the thing, it's not hard to get just 1 or 2 votes on a player

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with active coordination, that is

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and getting that daily is a lot

knotty berry
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fair actually

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hm. it also doesnt have the balancing factor of "if your target dies you have no more info"

grave cloak
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easy fix

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make it count their nomination

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not them being nominated

knotty berry
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i agree

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it is a little bit sculptor fall of rome but thats fine

grave cloak
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I was about to say we're remaking sculptor from first principles

tall dust
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LOL

knotty berry
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its reverse sculptor its fine

grave cloak
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in practice it's very different

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but now you can't organize it so easily

tall dust
grave cloak
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You start by choosing a player (not yourself). Each night*, learn if an evil player voted on a nomination they made today.

tall dust
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Hmm...

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So like... I need to clear this up

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Say Player 1 is evil and chooses to nominate Player 3, who is the Reigning Champion. If Player 1 doesn't vote, The Commentator gets a no, but if Player 1 DOES vote, they get a yes?

knotty berry
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im not sure what you mean

grave cloak
tall dust
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Oh.

grave cloak
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that said, I see exactly what the issue with the wording I gave is and why you're confused

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curse ambiguities of language

tall dust
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You start by choosing a player (not yourself). Each night*, if this player nominates today, learn if an evil player voted on it.

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Idk if this is any better LOL

knotty berry
grave cloak
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You start by choosing a player (not yourself). Each night*, learn if they made a nomination an evil player voted on today.
eh, still not quite there

knotty berry
tall dust
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You start by choosing a player (not yourself). Each night*, if they nominated today, learn if an evil player voted on it.

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Simplest BotC role /JOKE

knotty berry
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voted on or voted for? i dont think theres precedent

grave cloak
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annoyingly, Vizier just says Voted

tall dust
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If it helps, this is the Overview I was writing:

The Commentator learns if an evil player has voted on their chosen Champion's nominated player that day.

knotty berry
knotty berry
tall dust
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groans Grammar.

knotty berry
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its more concise & clear

tall dust
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Assistant (Townsfolk)

Once per game, at day, choose a player: you identify a part of their ability (ex. can inflict droison, interacts with special effects, protects others, etc).
-# So long as a reflected laser doesn't hit the reactor, it will be invincible... I-I hope. Wait, I shouldn't said that!

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Yeah I think an easy fix for this is making it once per day

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Because I remember in their debut game they slipped about the reactor's weakness and is instantly shut up

knotty berry
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once per game or once per day?

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id reword to

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Once per game, during the day, privately choose a player: learn something about their ability.

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which i think is ultimately pretty strong?

tall dust
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So everyone learns it

knotty berry
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everyone learns it is confirmation + information

tall dust
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For example: Assistant chooses Mimic, a part of the Mimic player's ability gets revealed to everyone
"Player 3 may send someone drunk every night!"

knotty berry
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and if its not confirmation, its easier to just make it a private consult. it makes it more interesting for bluff space

tall dust
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Ah, okay then

knotty berry
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yeah thats absurdly powerful

tall dust
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Prince

Each night*, choose a good character: you register as that role for the night and gain the ability. If this character is in-play, that player doesn't wake tonight.
-# You just stick with me, and I'll show you the ropes!

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Maybe...?

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Or

knotty berry
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im not sure what registering as that character does

grave cloak
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I've been trying to ask that question for a while

tall dust
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I thought it might be a good distraction for evils but

grave cloak
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what evil ability does that matter to?

knotty berry
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i think it makes it a harder bluff

tall dust
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Prince

Once per game, at night, choose a good character: if in-play, you and that player learn each other. Each night, choose to gain their ability until dusk: that player doesn't wake.
-# You just stick with me, and I'll show you the ropes!

grave cloak
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this is just a better nightwatchman

knotty berry
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this is a nightwatchman+

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yeah

tall dust
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F^CK THIS SUCKS

grave cloak
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good abilities that confirm themselves to other players, either publicly or privately, are very hard to make work

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because confirmation itself is inherently strong

knotty berry
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ig its not quite a nwm+, because it can miss

tall dust
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The old one was this:

Each night, choose a player (different to last night): you & they are safe from the Demon & they don't wake tonight. Once per game, choose to gain their ability until dusk.
I wanted to take the "not wake tonight but you can choose to gain their ability until dusk" part BAHAHAHAHA

knotty berry
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what do you want this character to do. is it a philo sidegrade?

tall dust
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Kinda? But at the same time I didn't want it to be like COMPLETELY PHILO 2

knotty berry
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theres a number of decent designs inside philo 2, especially if youre trying to interact with not waking

tall dust
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The character this role is based on actually does lead the tutorial in a sense so I thought it would work f^ckkkkk

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Let's try again

grave cloak
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Once per game, at night, choose a good character: You gain that ability. Each night, either you or that character might lose their ability until dusk.

tall dust
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Hold on switching to phone

tall dust
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Would it be broken if the two players know each other? So they can baton pass and coordinate just in case they want to aim for the same person

knotty berry
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yes because now its unbluffable

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(except within the evil team)

tall dust
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I do like the Prince having an agency to choose whether to steal the ability or not

knotty berry
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making it up to storyteller discretion which one wakes feels more balanced & fun. why wouldnt the Prince just always choose to wake, after all?

grave cloak
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especially since always taking the ability helps to shield from droison

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since they both need to be droisoned to stop the ability

tall dust
knotty berry
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yeah but if the prince dies, the original character just gains their ability back anyway

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also, the Prince doesnt know that their chosen player is good, and that alone highly incentivizes them to just take the ability for themself

tall dust
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F•ck I forgot alignment changes exist ESPECIALLY if I were to weaponize this in future expansions

knotty berry
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a suboptimal ability use is better than no ability use (in case the other player is evil)

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i dont mean "what if the townsfolk they choose is evil". i mean "what if the townsfolk they choose is being bluffed by evil"

tall dust
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That's fair

knotty berry
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(i do think its also pretty tough to bluff being picked by this as evil)

tall dust
grave cloak
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why?

tall dust
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To address the "two Steel Defenders protect each other and becomes unkillable" I think

grave cloak
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“Lose their ability”

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not doesn’t wake

tall dust
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Oh

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...how do I word this

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Like

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Maybe if the Prince chooses Steel Defender, then they have to pick a different target that isn't protected?

grave cloak
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I’m not sure what the issue here is?

knotty berry
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i dont think theres an issue if its "lose their ability" rather than doesnt wake. its tough on evil but thats fine

tall dust
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Just in case the Prince chooses the same protected player?

knotty berry
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i dont know why that matters

grave cloak
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that’s just the same as having not had a second steel defender

knotty berry
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then its just identical to one steel defender

tall dust
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Say Player 1 is protected by the Steel Defender.
The Prince decided, f•ck it, Steel Defender.
The Prince picks Player 1.
Now Player 1, regardless on who tf did lose their ability that night, gets protected anyways

grave cloak
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So?

knotty berry
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yeah thats not an issue

tall dust
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Ah

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Thought it'd be funnier if they choose a different player and now the defense malfunctions on both once in a while

grave cloak
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sure, but that’s not something you need to force to happen

tall dust
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SD: "I choose Player 3 since they are confirmed good"
ST: "Okay sick"
Prince, later that same night: "Can I yoink Steel Defender"
ST: "Sure, choose a player"
Prince: "Player 1"
Next night, the ST chooses to make the original SD's ability malfunction, so only Player 1 is protected that night. Player 3 unfortunately dies. Cue next morning
SD: "THE F•CK?! I THOUGHT I PROTECTED PLAYER 3?! WHY ARE THEY DEAD"
Prince: "...oops"

grave cloak
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ideal Philo gameplay

tall dust
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If you say so xD

grave cloak
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I will note that this needs evil to have a way to make players loose their ability/not wake to not be confirmed

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But I believe you already have that planned

tall dust
tall dust
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Alright

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That's... all the townsfolks, I think...?

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Time for Outsiders...

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Stormcloud (Outsider)

1 player is drunk, even if you die. You start knowing 1 good player. If you were mad that this player is evil, the drunk player becomes sober when they die.
-# YOU...! Did you think I'd forget?! The time you smashed into me with your Hi-Jump! That time I was betrayed by Helpers! Or when I was replaced by that imposter! I-I... Sniff... there's something in my eye...

Falling Star (Outsider)

You start knowing 5 in-play characters. Every night, guess which player is which character. If all 5 are guessed, choose a player: if evil, they are drunk.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

Stacker Witch [Outsider]

Each night*, choose a player: you and that player play a simple game together. If you win or tie, that player becomes drunk until dusk, and if you lose, you die.
-# Hey, hey, heeey! Are you really that strong? Let me test your real skill!

runic needle
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How is Falling Star at all an outsider

tall dust
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The character this role is based on got split into 5, and needs to get all the 5 pieces back so they can return to the sky

runic needle
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This is stronger than most Townsfolk

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there is actively 0 downside to this character existing

tall dust
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What if... keep the guessing, but if they guessed them all they die?

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...maybe that doesn't help

runic needle
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learning 5 in-play characters is so incredibly strong

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the King is lucky if they do that all game

tall dust
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Falling Star (Outsider)

You start knowing 5 players. Every night, guess which player is which character. If all 5 are guessed, choose a player: if evil, they are drunk.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

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???

runic needle
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again there's no actual downside to this

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at all

tall dust
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F^ck's sake... how do I...

runic needle
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this is just a weak townsfolk

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it needs an actual consequence

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compare this to official outsiders

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they're bad

tall dust
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Falling Star (Outsider)

You start knowing 5 players. Once per game, at night, guess which player is which character. If wrong, you die.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

grave cloak
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an outsider should have a downside, and maybe have a way to negate that downside

grave cloak
tall dust
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Falling Star (Outsider)

You start knowing 5 players. Once per game, at night, guess which player is which character. If wrong, you die. If correct, one evil player is permanently drunk.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

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Okay f^ck that doesn't work

runic needle
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death also isn't a great downside unless there's a ton of multikills

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and in that case Tinker just does it better

grave cloak
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(this is why Acrobat was such a bad outsider it became a tf)

tall dust
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What the f^ck

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*character Acrobat

grave cloak
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don't ask me why there's a bot that does that sometimes

tall dust
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--role Acrobat

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Ah f^ck it I'm going to the wiki anyway

grave cloak
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*role acrobat

chrome jayBOT
# grave cloak *role acrobat
Acrobat (Townsfolk) - Experimental

Each night*, choose a player: if they are or become drunk or poisoned tonight, you die.

**Affects Setup: **False

tall dust
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What the hell...

image.png
runic needle
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makes sense when you think about it

grave cloak
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it doesn't if you think about it more

tall dust
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BAHAHAHAHA imagine doing acrobatics and you entered the drunk guy's house and it's so revolting you jump off a cliff LOL

grave cloak
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thematically, you just trusted your safety line to the town's least reliable member

tall dust
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Okay that makes sense but still

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It's kinda hilarious just seeing this guy drunk and just tossing sh^t everywhere and you're like "welp this sucks" and just jump off the cliff at how revolting that is

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...maybe...

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Falling Star (Outsider)

You start by choosing 5 players. If a Minion publicly guesses all five (once), your team loses.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

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(optional: add that all players must know you are in play!)

grave cloak
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how does a minion ever learn your choices

tall dust
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Basically OOPS SO MANY DAMSELS

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Falling Star (Outsider)

All minions know you are in play. You start by choosing 5 players. If a Minion publicly guesses all five (once), your team loses.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

grave cloak
#

if you don't say anything about your choices, which you have no reason to, there's effectively no way that evil can ever guess them?

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damsel works because you need to hide your character, which necessitates lying and not being caught

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this just, doesn't need to do anything

tall dust
grave cloak
#

??

tall dust
#

Falling Star (Outsider)

All minions know you are in play. You start by choosing 4 other player. If a Minion publicly guesses all five including yourself (once), your team loses.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

grave cloak
#

how does that help

#

there's still no way for evil to know who you picked

#

how will a minion guess all 5

tall dust
#

What if it's evil in general?

grave cloak
#

that doesn't solve the problem?

tall dust
runic needle
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i feel like this is getting unnecessarily complicated

tall dust
#

This sucks

runic needle
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what is your goal with these characters?

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what's the script theme

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what do you want them to ddo

tall dust
#

The roles are based on Kirby characters!

runic needle
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droison hell?

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as in like 10 people droisoned at a time?

tall dust
runic needle
#

hm

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be reeally careful to not have too much

grave cloak
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we'd hadn't gotten to the evil characters to deal with that minefield yet

tall dust
#

True

grave cloak
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the important thing is, more than anything else, solvability

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otherwise, there's no info to sort

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if you want snv, then misinfo needs to be tracible

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no-dashii, vortox, xaan

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not poisoner

tall dust
#

RIP Poisoner

#

Hmmm

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I still like the 5 theming since this is the character's backstory:

image.png
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Falling Star (Outsider)

All evil players know you are in play. You start by choosing 4 other players. If a Minion publicly guesses all five including yourself (once), all these other players go drunk.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

#

...okay no

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This is a headache

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Maybe I should ditch this character idk

runic needle
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you're missing the issue with this character

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Minions have no idea who to guess

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ever

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this character is basically a vanilla townsfolk

tall dust
runic needle
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even then a Minion will never out themself because this isn't worth it

tall dust
#

Falling Star (Outsider)

All evil players know you are in play. You start by choosing 4 other players - the minion learns them and then you each day. If a Minion publicly calls out all five including yourself (once), your team loses.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

grave cloak
#

each day?

tall dust
#

Falling Star (Outsider)

All evil players know you are in play. You start by choosing 4 other players - the minion learns them and then you each night. If a Minion publicly calls out all five including yourself (once), your team loses.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

grave cloak
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if it's each night, then this is basically "evil wins on n4 if you don't die before then"

tall dust
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Maybe we should change it so it'd be like "evil can win on n4 onwards if they guess you"?

runic needle
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but like

tall dust
#

Falling Star (Outsider)

All evil players know you are in play. You start by choosing 4 other players - the minion learns them each night. If a Minion publicly calls out all five including yourself (once), your team loses.
-# Alright then... we'll let a game decide who can keep it!

#

So they know 4 players and has to guess you!

runic needle
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this is just slightly better damsel

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like if you remove the second sentence it is literally Damsel

grave cloak
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the choosing 4 players is effectively meaningless

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the only important part of the 4 players is that it acts as a timer so you can't lose before n4, and slowly tells evil players that aren't you

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which means that this can just publicly out and get itself killed freely before n4

tall dust
#

Arghhhhh my brain

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Okay you know what

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I'll deal with that later that will be the last outsider I'm going to tackle

tall dust
runic needle
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is becoming sober when they die at all helpful

#

for stormcloud

grave cloak
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stacker witch isn't an outsider, that's just a townsfolk poisoner

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(that might die)

runic needle
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oh yeah it kinda just confirms itself doesnt it

grave cloak
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though I don't think it's anywhere near as useful as just the free steward ping

runic needle
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oh i see

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yeah the Steward part makes this too strong

tall dust
grave cloak
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YSK a player instead of YSK a good player does help somewhat

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though you're still going to meta that you see a good player most of the time

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the larger issue is that removing the drunk later in the game just isn't that impactful

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by the time they're undrunked, they'll already have most if not all of their information, and won't know they were drunk

tall dust
#

I still like the idea of having such a hater role... maybe...

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Stormcloud (Outsider)

1 player is insomniac, even if you die. You start knowing 1 player. If you were mad that this player is evil, you lose this ability when they die.
-# YOU...! Did you think I'd forget?! The time you smashed into me with your Hi-Jump! That time I was betrayed by Helpers! Or when I was replaced by that imposter! I-I... Sniff... there's something in my eye...

grave cloak
#

I just feel kinda bad for the player that might just, never get an ability in a game

tall dust
grave cloak
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oh god no, permanently drunk is very impactful

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that wasn't the issue with the character at all

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the issue is that removing drunkeness late in the game isn't impactful

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because it will be doing most of it's damage early anyway

tall dust
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Hhhhhh

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I like the idea of the role being mad someone is evil though...

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...actually

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?

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*role Puzzlemaster

chrome jayBOT
# tall dust *role Puzzlemaster
Puzzlemaster (Outsider) - Experimental

1 player is drunk, even if you die. If you guess (once) who it is, learn the Demon player, but guess wrong & get false info.

**Affects Setup: **False

tall dust
#

There you go...

#

Huh. So a drunk guessed player by the Puzzlemaster doesn't remove their drunkenness upon guess...?

runic needle
#

Correct

tall dust
#

Stormcloud (Outsider)

1 player is drunk, even if you die. You start knowing 1 player. If you were mad that this player is evil, (insert effect here...?)
-# YOU...! Did you think I'd forget?! The time you smashed into me with your Hi-Jump! That time I was betrayed by Helpers! Or when I was replaced by that imposter! I-I... Sniff... there's something in my eye...

#

Actually the format should be

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1 player is (negative state that isn't dead), even if you die. You start knowing 1 player. If you were mad that this player is evil, (insert effect here...?)

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1 player is drunk even if you die. You start knowing 1 player. If you were mad that this player is evil, you win together with the winning alignment when they die.

#

??? Does this work??

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Basically Puzzlemaster + Politician

grave cloak
grave cloak
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it's also not really a good idea to have a player who has already won a game still in the game

tall dust
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1 player is drunk, even if you die. You start knowing 1 player. If you were mad that this player is evil and they die, you learn who the drunk player is.

tall dust
#

Stacker Witch now traveler so I have to find another character to turn into outsider. We are losing good

tall dust
#

F•ck it we're doing a bird

tall dust
#

All outsiders completed, will publish

tall dust
#

Hi folks!
Information updated! I'm most likely going to revamp or add missing icons, so until that day comes, we'll get to that

tall dust
#

Icons added for a bunch of characters

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There will be some that get changed tbh. We will see

tall dust
#

After some considerations, I decided to eventually revive this script with a new coat of paint. I realized that the old version is very flawed because... I just made various characters at once.

#

So I am likely going to return to the basics and work on each character one by one, making sure they are also compatible with the rest of the original and experimental roles.