Stirring the Pot

[hollow cipher]

Chefs are always so happy with their zeroes. Their bland, unseasoned soups. Their overcooked, too-soft pappardelle. They've grown passive. Lazy. Lethargic. I say: Let's put these chefs on edge. Legions and Marionettes. Lords of Typhon and Recluses. No Dashii poisons and Puzzlemasters. Make them work for their meals. Yes! Have our Boffins concoct maniacal mischief! Our Philosophers pontificate on promising premises! Our Acrobats die! That'll teach them! That'll teach them...

Feedback welcome and appreciated

[gritty dagger]

Mmm yes, a chef that solves the demon type day 1

Also im not sure why this is a multikill script? Like i understand multikill can be fun with legion but its not great with dashii (think gossip sitting next to the squid)

[hollow cipher]

It's multikill because lots of droison/misinfo (Philo, VI, Innkeeper, PM, ND + Recluse) warranted adding Acrobat, which in turn warranted death mod, and, more importantly, I think it works even with ND. The Gossip conundrum is counteracted by Innkeeper drunkenness, PM, Exorcist, Acrobat, Assassin, GF, Tinker, even Philo...

[hallow vigil]

For the love of god

The lord of Typhon release script proved that chef with the Hiding Demons

It is a shitty interaction

It is in no way fun

If it has to be drunk to be balanced, it’s too strong

Just no

Nein

Nada

Nope

Here’s the thing

Chef getting 0s often is balanced

that’s why it’s on TB

because you will get normal numbers

Chef with Legion or Lord of Typhon just wins

(Especially with both of their socials)

Because the numbers are so

Goddamn

Confirmable

[hollow cipher]

I understand and appreciate your strong opinion on turning Chef into "You learn the Demon type", but I disagree - Droison is a vital part of BotC and plenty of characters only work because of it, across even base scripts. To fully discount it is not really conducive to any valuable analysis of the ecosystem BotC produces. Simultaneously, part of BotC's innate balancing systems means that by raising Chef's informational power, you're lowering its social power. "Don't believe Empaths" is a thing because their info is powerful, same with Bounty Hunters or Dreamers. Up to a certain point, script metas balance themselves around character power. That's, in part, why stronger and weaker Townsfolk can exist. Their mechanical power inversely correlates to their social power. Yes, this script is a huge buff for Chef. Yes, if evil is not prepared to deal with it, they will suffer for it. That's no different from an accurate Empath 2 or Dreamer's entire existence. We can argue about when the cutoff in power happens and a character becomes centralizing, yes, but I don't think it'll be much of a fruitful discussion.

[hallow vigil]

I’m saying if a role has to be the target of most droison

To be balanced

(I.e empath, or chef here)

It’s not a good idea

(Chef has wrecked many a legion before)

(Because what is legion gonna do? Kill them?)

[hollow cipher]

I understand why you don't think Chef is fun on scripts such as these. You're allowed to think that and I won't begrudge you for it. I can tell you've made bad experiences with Chef on scripts including (from what I can tell based off of your comments in #custom-script-discussion) your favorite Demon.

[hallow vigil]

Look

The Lord of Typhon release script was basically this

[hollow cipher]

It's a fickle interaction

[hallow vigil]

It was

Really

Really bad

I just know if I got a chef 5 or smth

I’d start playing cleanup crew for legion

Or realize im droisoned

Within 1-2 business days

[hollow cipher]

Also, Legion just is kinda loud for a hidden Demon, pretty much no matter which info townsfolk you throw at them. FTs get yeses, Empaths get 2s, UTs learn Minion after Minion, VIs get evil pings...

[hallow vigil]

Those are roles you don’t put in legion.

(and also why it’s a common pairing with vortox)

Which isn’t bad

[hollow cipher]

see, that's where I somewhat disagree

[hallow vigil]

(Although your minions are bluffable,I’ll give you that)

It’s already bloody easy to figure out it’s legion

If they have bad socials

(Which, it’s likely one will)

And then good has to play cleanup

(Which isn’t great for both sides)

Adding roles that

[hollow cipher]

I think Legion is not dissimilar to Lunatic, fundamentally

[hallow vigil]

Legion is more similar to Atheist

[hollow cipher]

To expect that Demon type to stay hidden until the end is idealistic. The goal for Legion is that one of them makes it. Not all of them.

[hallow vigil]

I’ve seen it happen

[hollow cipher]

only on paper

[hallow vigil]

This is partly because of how i run it

[hollow cipher]

It happens, just how some Lunatics do get fooled

[hallow vigil]

Like, an actual game

About 33% of the time

[hollow cipher]

no i mean, legion is only similar to atheist on paper

[hallow vigil]

oh

That’s fair

Legion is….

Basically an army

And needs betrayals to win

Because they suck at fighting

or

Giant vizier who is outed by socials instead

[hollow cipher]

I think the expectation with Legion is that they're found out at some point. The Lunatic will find out they're not the Demon, good will find out it's a Legion game. If that doesn't happen, that means the stars aligned on a wonderfully executed game for evil

[hallow vigil]

My legion games tend to be ambiguous throughout

Legion worlds are built

Sure

But its not hard confirmed

by any role

[hollow cipher]

That's a way to run Legion, absolutely. I'm just standing firm against the idea that it's the only way for Legion to be run.

[hallow vigil]

Confirming legion ends badly

(As a guy who is the cleanup guy when legion goes wrong)

Dangit

I didn’t even cover lord of Typhon

I’ve just seen too many people jaded against legion forever because of stuff like the Lord of Typhon release script

[hollow cipher]

Legion was going to be a hard sell for some people from the get-go. That's kind of the thing with Clocktower. There will be characters you don't like playing or having on script

Snake Charmer, Heretic, Atheist, Legion

Politician, Marionette, Al-Hadikhia

People look for different things in their clocktower games and that's okay

I have a player in my irl group who detests Yaggababble

[livid stag]

I don't think Acrobat has enough reason to be on here

From the evil team it is just No Dashii, and then dying off of any of the good roles is going to cause a lot of confirmation (most notably, that that player is basically confirmed good and so are probably 0-2 other people)

But in a lot of scenarios, an Acrobat is just not gonna die ever

(well, to their own ability)

[hollow cipher]

In part why Boffin's on there

[livid stag]

Imo that's still too niche to justify

[hollow cipher]

Also, Acrobat is a Townsfolk, it's allowed to do TF things with good abilities

[livid stag]

Boffin-Philo/Innkeeper/PM

[hollow cipher]

Boffin-VI too

[livid stag]

Yes, but there's a balance to that. There's a reason Artist doesn't go on every script, or that neither does Farmer go on Leviathan. I think Acrobat is either too powerful if it does proc, or simply never will, and I don't think that's a great dynamic

[livid stag]

If you rule that that works, then yeah sure that too

[hollow cipher]

I mean, there's in-betweens for everything. Minion kills and true Gossips, protection bluffs and Demon kills.

Sure, if the only options were "the Acrobat lives and does nothing" and "the Acrobat confirms half the town square", I'd be with you

[livid stag]

Demon kills aren't going to cover for Acrobat here, they're 1kpn with exception to Legion, and if you're using extra Legion kills to kill the Acrobat I worry for good and STing

Sure, there is nuance here and ways to fake it theoretically, but those also only work as well as the evil team knows who the Acrobat is choosing that night

It'll be fine some games, leave it if you want, but I think it's far too swingy and setup dependent with this little droisoning from the evil team, and does not fit here

In doing so, this can also be made not a multikill script which I think will do it favours

[hollow cipher]

In regards to droison, the big thing I've been swinging on is Godfather vs Widow tbh

[livid stag]

If you move the script away from multikill then you can afford to make the swap to Widow which I think works a lot better here

[hollow cipher]

Honestly if I did end up moving away from mulitkill, I'd probably do Spy over Widow

Widow is with Acrobat in mind, without it, I think Spy works better

-Acrobat
-Gossip
-Exorcist

-Tinker

-Godfather
-Assassin

---

+Mathematician
+?
+?

+Saint

+Spy
(+?)

[gritty dagger]

poisoner probably to increase the possibility of wrong chef numbers

[hallow vigil]

Spy helps LoT

[hollow cipher]

+Balloonist
+Noble
?

No wait not Noble

Soldier or RK would probably be better

[thick iron]

I think this needs vortox?

Chef + LoT/legion is ridiculously strong without it (so is flowergirl)

[gritty dagger]

I agree that vortix would be a good add (and you wouldnt need poisoner)

[hollow cipher]

I'm really not a huge fan of Vortox with Legion in the current script building climate – I think it's a bit overdone and somewhat shoehorns you into hard committing to simulating Legion when Vortox is in play. It works and they complement each other well, but I don't like it that much.

[gritty dagger]

It depends what other roles you have with vortox
Fortune teller with vortox will look like legion, but flowergirl probably wont

[hallow vigil]

FG has a very good use with Vortox legion