#Ringbearer: Lord of the Rings

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

placid gull
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pretty high risk high reward

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also pretty chaos and destruction lol

jaunty wedge
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sounds about right
I'm just not sure if that's fun for the dead player if the traveler uses their vote token to kill someone on their team

placid gull
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true, but it does require their consent
the bigger problem in my mind is how often players would just, not let the Balrog ever have their token

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cuz high risk is scary

jaunty wedge
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true that, true that
I think it could work

placid gull
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I think I'm putting it down for now, at least
might try to specifically arrange traveller playtesting when I release the update

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that just leaves shelob

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arachnophobia warning

SPOILER_800px-John_Howe_-_Sam_and_Shelob.webp
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interactions with poison are an obvious place to go
but are poison interactions very fun for most travellers?

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plus Shelob is exactly a pukka

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just word for word and it's hard to get anything else in my mind

jaunty wedge
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it's tricky
I'm also thinking of a hint of randomness cause the giant spider wraps people up in a racoon

placid gull
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[insert MS paint created image of a man wrapped up in a big raccoon]
randomness is an interesting read from that tbh

jaunty wedge
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people kinda look the same if you wrap them in enough silk

placid gull
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haha fair

jaunty wedge
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I'll sleep on it, see what I can come up with

placid gull
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probably same here

placid gull
hard patioBOT
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Gave +1 Thanks to @jaunty wedge (current: #880 - 18)

jaunty wedge
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Sure thing!
I would take the first one with a grain of salt-- but do feel free to adjust as needed

placid gull
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of course!

jaunty wedge
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Did some revisions & I think I cut out most of the fat

Bombadil (Tr) - "Each day, at dusk, you may silence all players, look at the Grimoire, point at a player, and then leave (or spectate)."

Balrog (Tr) - "Once per day, before nominations, if a dead player agrees, you may spend their vote token to publicly choose a player: they die."
-# * "Once per day" to avoid either team getting FAR too many kills (consistant with Gangster)
-# * "Before nominations" prevents anyone from instantly giving their token to Balrog after an execution. Sauron should get the chance to kill before a good Balrog. Good should get the opprotunity to exile an Evil Balrog. (Consistant with Psychopath)

Radagast (Tr) - "If Sauron publicly agrees (once), something good for your team happens."
-# * "(once)" to prevent the evil team from farming miracles. Plus deciding what's 'good for your team' is difficult once you've done it once or twice already

placid gull
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Once per day balrog is arguably less fun and chaotic, but very probably more balanced. Might try the silly version once or twice, just to see, but this as the standard is sensible.

I've chosen to word Radagast as getting to make a wish, rather than something good happening, to make him consistent with the other 2 wizards on the script, for ✨ flavor ✨

jaunty wedge
placid gull
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Otherwise, I like these :)

jaunty wedge
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nicee

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chaotic Balrog & Radagast is definitely more fun-- so you can try it out & if it's balanced then we absolutely roll with it

placid gull
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I did mean balrog, that was my miswording
But yes, I agree!

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might word Bombadil as "Once per game" because while that's naturally implied by leaving, it reads more intuitively I think

jaunty wedge
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cool!
my main concern is making sure the travelers fun for everyone involved :]

placid gull
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(which is, admittedly, hard)

jaunty wedge
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the only thing, so far, is that there's not a Traveler with a lot of agency, so I'm hopin to make the last one a bit more independant
-# *I would be fine playing Balrog or Radagast since I enjoy being social & trying to make deals with people, but admittedly, if I'm a really shy person, none of these are appealing

placid gull
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That's fair and reasonable! Bombadil has quite a lot of agency, but is a bit dramatic and operates in a "walk in, walk out" type of way that lends itself to a traveller with little investment, so I get it.

I had a rough idea for Shelob that's relatively independent:
"Each night, choose a player. They learn your alignment. You may choose for this ability to yield false info (once)."
I do feel like this is missing something, though.

jaunty wedge
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Hmmm
"Each night, choose a player (different to last choice): they learn the alignment of the previously-chosen player. If you choose yourself, choose again."
Does something similar by letting the evil Shelob to choose to give someone an evil about someone else. The previous person is known if they out.

placid gull
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Okay, that's actually quite cool
Maybe a little wordy, let me see how it fits

frozen nimbus
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what character type is that?

placid gull
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traveller

frozen nimbus
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that is not helpful for evil

placid gull
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the idea is that they can frame

frozen nimbus
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not really?

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the player who learns can always claim it

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and is expected to

placid gull
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if the Shelob is evil, they can choose themselves first, which makes the previous choice appear evil

jaunty wedge
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evil could also just.. catch the Shalob's info and lie

frozen nimbus
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which is good sided

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since its information claimed

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the information never helps evil on a mechanical level

placid gull
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so it is exactly 150 characters which is commonly the homebrew standard for limits
but I usually prefer not to go above 130 for my own tastes
however, I don't see a way to shorten this, really, so it might stay at 150

to be clear on the mechanics;
Evil Shelob chooses an evil player night 1. Nothing happens.
Night 2, chooses a good player, who learns "Evil" (not knowing who player 1 actually is),
Night 3 Shelob picks herself (learning "Good", and another good player, who learns "Evil" because Shelob is evil.

At least, this is my understanding of the ability

frozen nimbus
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this makes any player learning good really strong info

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which isnt too hard to line up for a good one

placid gull
# frozen nimbus this makes any player learning good really strong info

night 1 didn't do anything
Night 2 told a good player "there is evil somewhere" and exactly where is up to shelob
Night 3 told bunk false info

If we reverse the good and evil in that previous scenario,

Night 1 did nothing
Night 2 told a player "someone is good" and Shelob has to be taken at their word
Night 3 told another player "the previous person and/or Shelob, is good." which is fine info, but still has mistrust

If you learn good or evil, the primary thing you learn is that Shelob and that player don't share the opposite alignment, which is strong but still pretty manipulable

(to be clear, not staunch on this and open to suggestions, this is just the best we have so far)

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I do think this is actually a little more good favored as a traveller specifically because there is 1 less evil player among the crowd because of public Sauron, so definitely open to other ideas

frozen nimbus
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the previous person is good

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on the n4

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n3*

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with a good shelob

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since the good shelob wouldnt lie about it

placid gull
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but town doesn't know that they're not lying

frozen nimbus
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they do

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good players wouldn't to a relevant point

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shelob has no incentive to lie

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so learning a good just means that the previous player who claimed is good or they have an evil player which can misregister as good

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cause the evil team could in theory mess with who claims to have learned

jaunty wedge
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I'll have to go through some tweaks to be beneficial for evil, it seems

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Could be some sort of protection depending on alignment, instead

placid gull
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Though idk how much that fits with the spider theme

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this one felt very much like spinning a web of info, which was what I liked

jaunty wedge
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I mean, I would s the possibility of "1 to 3 players register as evil." but that's way too much ability text & riffing off of something else

placid gull
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Yea definitely

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And feels less manipulable

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I liked giving shelob the option to lie, but it has to be limited or you'd never trust them ever

placid gull
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I've had a realization

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firstly: Turns out scripts have 5 travelers, not 4, as I somehow thought

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secondly: There's a fairly decent character available for traveling in Annatar "The Lord of Gifts" (Sauron disguised as a good guy)

I kind of want the ability to have something to do with deciding where the Ring goes, but giving that ability to evil is really hard so I'm thinking about it

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maybe "Each night*, you choose who has the Ring. If you are mad about your choice, they might be safe today."

jaunty wedge
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I was wondering if you were gonna add in a 5th!
-# I just figured you didn't want that many

placid gull
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no, I'm merely a fool

jaunty wedge
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happens to the best of us

placid gull
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Shelob is still giving me a really tough time too
It's almost all I have left for the next update

jaunty wedge
placid gull
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Yea

jaunty wedge
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okok

placid gull
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although I just edited it because I realized the execution part was not necessary

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I guess it has an additional issue though

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if traveler and Sauron coordinate, they can make a choice beforehand and act on it
then I'd have to make a "preemptive madness" ruling which is tough

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but maybe fine?

jaunty wedge
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"Each night*, choose a player (not travelers or Sauron): pass the Ring to them. If the Ringbearer dies, you might be exiled instead."

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or "you are exiled, instead"

placid gull
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hmm
the reason I don't like that is because it sounds like an evil one never gets to help win the game

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like, in present version, a clever Annatar can just set up the Ring on someone Sauron already suspects, without ever being mad

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and it's a well-earned play

jaunty wedge
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ooo that's true

placid gull
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Might keep my version but add "If you are exiled, the Ring might move"

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that way town can counterplay an evil Annatar?

jaunty wedge
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the only thing is it's difficult to keep track of that sort of madness
all it takes is two seconds without the storyteller & the Annatar could tell sauron who has it ...

placid gull
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I mean, that's true, but I feel like
Town usually shouldn't meta who talks to Sauron because that's lame
but if specifically the traveller Annatar goes and talks to Sauron, they should suspect something and exile Annatar, possibly making Ringbearer safe.

Plus, I know TPI generally advocates sneakily breaking madness, but I think it's a reasonable conceit that it's not a very fun traveller otherwise

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but maybe I'm coping 😭

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but then I must consider

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is a good Annatar useful at all really?

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yea, this might not work :(

jaunty wedge
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hmmm

placid gull
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My general approach when I think about characters is the first thought: Can this interact with the One Ring?
Second thought: Can this interact with Sauron?

because those are the big gimmicks
and a traveller that decides the Ring location feels very...cooperatory with the gimmick

jaunty wedge
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It's pretty tricky

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"Each night*, you may choose a player: a minion, if chosen, is passed the ring. Each day*, all players learn you chose 1 of 2 players."
-# Alt: "Each night*, you may choose a player: a minion, if chosen, is passed the ring. Each day*, once a player is on the block, all players learn who you chose."
A good Annatar allows players to safely execute a player without fear of killing the ringbearer.
An evil Annatar is able to pass the ring to an evil player. This still allows Annatar to win the game like you were originally intending, but it takes some convincing to prevent the minion they chose from being executed

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could extend to "an evil (not Sauron)" for Oathbreaker ..

placid gull
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That's...pretty interesting
It's got a little bit more complexity than I'd prefer, I'm trying to consider if there's any fat to be trimmed

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The character functions pretty fundementally differently if evil or good, which is cool
But also sort of means I'm reading 2 characters when I read the text

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(And the script has too much text right now, so I'd like to trim where I can)

jaunty wedge
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"Each night*, publicly choose 2 living players (not Sauron or travelers): a minion, if chosen, gains the ring."

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This would go right after the ringbearer passes the ring
Took out "(1st takes priority)" because the same effect can be accomplished, except the 2nd player takes priority due to being the most recent choice (so.. the 1st player chosen is a minion and is given the ring for a brief moment-- but it is taken away after the 2nd minion is picked).
Good Annator is able to do as previously mentioned,
Evil Annator can fake being good until they create a 50/50 which good can use vibes to sus out.. or convince everyone to vote out good players because "we can safely do it since they have the ring"

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-# the important bit, to me, is that good has counterplay against an evil Annator
-# I feel like this allows for both sides to deserve winning the game--
-# evil Annator wins if they were able to trick good into executing the wrong player
-# good get a huge moral boost (& have killed a minion) if they manage to outsmart evil Annator

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-# meanwhile.. I imagine a good Annator would try picking the most confirmed player & the most suspicious player--
-# which may lead to evil being stomped.. but if evil can convince the good Annator not to pick them with a confirmed player (which is incredibly feasible with Mouth of Sauron & Wormtongue), then good might keep killing into the wrong players

placid gull
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You've sold me, I really like this one

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My only minor nit is that I don't love the "Ring gets passed, then gets passed again" dynamic very much, but that's pretty minor and I think the upside is worth it

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Is there a reason to specify "not travellers"?

hardy totem
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Don't you worry I'm fine-tuning my bill concept lol

jaunty wedge
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:D
not travelers cuz I want the picks to be people who could actually hold the ring--
but that's not necessary!

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cuz picking anyone other than yourself (someone everyone KNOWS can't be a minion) & someone else would be the only thing you could do as the good annator (or someone pretending to be the good annator)

placid gull
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I suppose a good Annatar is fully capable of fortune-teller picking themselves, and we established that picking confirmed players is more interesting when evil has Wormtongue-MoS counterplay

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Not Travellers seems fair!

placid gull
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okay I've got 4 travellers with whom I am totally happy, 1 more to go :)

jaunty wedge
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hell yee

hardy totem
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Don't worry I'm making it lore accurate too

placid gull
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I'm just so bummed out that the last Shelob idea didn't work

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and every idea I come up with is worse

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Like, "Each day, visit the Stroyteller to learn something true." is a fine ability, but it's not nearly as interesting

hardy totem
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Maybe it would help if you geeked out over the Lore to get more ideas

jaunty wedge
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geeking out over the lore did help when I was making ideas

placid gull
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yea
but Shelob is uhh
not very character-esque so to speak

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and to the extent that she is, she's very veryunambiguously evil

it's possible I should take the community suggestion and try to make alternate demons like Smaug, Shelob, and the Balrog

but like, all the minions work for Sauron so they feel sort of out-of-place
and the script is very much built around Sauron existing right now so I would have to change basically everything

jaunty wedge
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Do you think Shelob would oppose Sauron?

hardy totem
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I doubt that at least openly

placid gull
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Yea, not really
I mean, she most certainly would if Sauron stood directly in her way
she eats his orcs and such
but for the most part they are two separate axes of evil that don't overlap or intersect

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kind of like the Balrog in that way too

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he's all primordial and ancient and evil as a force of nature
while Sauron is malevolent and world-dominating
they don't really overlap, but if either got in the other's way they'd fight but if not they'd ignore each other

jaunty wedge
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if evil, Sauron isn't standing in your way... if good, Sauron is standing in your way so you're fighting just to spite them...
alright

placid gull
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yea, though if evil you're cooperating directly with Sauron, which still feels odd

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but it's gonna have to work

jaunty wedge
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could be similar to the cult leader where it's like: "I have my own win condition, and if it just so happens to be what the evil team wants then so be it"

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I would suggest something as simple as "You start knowing 3 players. If they are dead, your team wins" but then it's nearly impossible to know weither Shelob is evil or not

placid gull
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Yea, agreed

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not opposed to alignment changing travellers either
which could lead to a "You start knowing 2 [opposing?] players. When the last one dies, you become their alignment." or something

jaunty wedge
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it's tricky

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There's a lot of scattered ideas I have but I don't know how to make it work

  • Alignment detection or changing
  • A ringbearer ability
  • Alt win condition
  • "Sauron starts knowing your alignment."
placid gull
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I can also never get pukka out of my head

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if Shelob were a demon, it would absolutely be Pukka

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or maybe a 1 night barrow-fog or smth

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so I keep coming up with ideas involving poison and death

placid gull
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comes down to a coin flip sort of

jaunty wedge
placid gull
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ah, so then the choice is up to whether Town thinks Annator is lying about which was chosen first

jaunty wedge
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yee,
you'd go up to the 1st minion or Bilbo & be like: "The force of Annator gave you the ring.. but then you lost it

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oh-- Annator makes their picks publicly

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so town would know

placid gull
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ohhhh that's so true

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okay

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seems very balanced then

jaunty wedge
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putting "publicly" knocked out an entire sentence & just helps balance

placid gull
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Yea, very excellent choice in wording

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even though public night stuff is unconventional

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man...

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night order is messed up on this script

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this is actually slightly inaccurate

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but still

jaunty wedge
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pfffft
wdym? don't all minions usually act near the end of night order?

placid gull
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I could move MoS, but Wormtongue interacts with alignment detection so going early makes sense to avoid "whoops, the Ringbearer became evil after they were picked by someone" or whatever and Witch-King is a poisoner soooo

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I had MoS early so that they could communicate while I did the rest of the nightcards and such

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but it doesn't really matter where that one is

jaunty wedge
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I feel like the most important bit for Mouth of Sauron is going after demon info to get bluffs

placid gull
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Minion & Demon info happen before everything on this script
The JSON is just messed up cuz Bloodstar is out of date

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(and fixing it is...effortful)

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but it does go after Wormtongue and Witch-King on purpose
so it can include Wormtongue in the talk and get Witch-King's info to Sauron

jaunty wedge
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there is a way too do so by changing the "first night:" variable to be over 18

placid gull
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if I do so on each individual character, yes
which is what I will, unfortunately, be forced to do

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at least to my knowledge that's the only fix

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so I have to sort night order manually and input a number for each character in sequence

jaunty wedge
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yeeeaaahhh
I don't think there's an automatic way ta do it

placid gull
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Yea...

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well anyways let's jump away from the bummer news

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here's a little sneak peek into the next update;

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||(in addition to the 5 travellers there's an entire new Outsider!)||
||(I may have found a functional Aragorn and a functional Treebeard)||
||(For the first time, I'm going to experiment with substantial changes to 2 minions)||

hardy totem
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Once I get home I'll send my draft bill

hardy totem
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this is kinda rough but i gave it a shot

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Bill the Pony- Bill is always Good
Cannot hold the ring or be in private calls (hanging out in town)
Evil may not win the day/night of Bills Banishment. (only usable with 4 or more players) Bill may be banished at any time

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give sauron somebody to chat with lol

jaunty wedge
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"You are good. If you are exiled while 4 or more players live, evil cannot win today. You cannot hold the ring or enter private chats."

placid gull
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goofy traveller for sure
he'll probably be a guest star in at least one game lol

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maybe if you catch us playing you can travel in as bill Bacon

hardy totem
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lol its just a random shot since we joked about bill

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so i wanted ot think about a lore role bill

placid gull
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Not even sure it has to be good-locked. It's borderline interesting to just say "opposing team can't win"

Granted, I'm not sure what good that does for evil most of the time...

jaunty wedge
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I also don't think some players would like the "you can't enter private chats" rule.. just cause it restricts them from getting to speak

placid gull
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Yea, not super fun

hardy totem
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had to do that if Bill had to be good

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i mean i cannot visualize bill as evil

placid gull
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No no no

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you're seeing it wrong

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Bill isn't good or evil

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he's loyal

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it's up to the alignment of his master

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he's like an ultimate butler

hardy totem
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... fair but I dislike it

placid gull
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lol

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look if Sauron rode Bill Bill would be crazy evil

hardy totem
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I mean anyone that got rode by him would probably be that way

placid gull
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exactly!

hardy totem
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He's got that mad dom energy

jaunty wedge
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new almanac?

placid gull
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I've got it nearly finished

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The only things left are night order and the fact that I really want to tweak Pippin but can't think of anything good

placid gull
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oh and a better shelob but that might not happen before Almanac 4.0

placid gull
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Changelog:

  • ✨ Travelers! ✨ (Bombadil, Radagast, Shelob, Balrog, Annatar). Travelers are fun, and inclusive, and allow me to add some important characters that don't quite fit into the "good/evil" model.
  • Treebeard: Character completely remodeled; now has a slow but powerful information ability, which doesn't ooze with flavor as much as the last one, but it's better for gameplay.
  • Galadriel now works like an undertaker, but for Sauron's kills. Should lead to some powerful confirmation chains, and may give the rare incentive for Sauron to Wormtongue a dead player...
  • Boromir's ability now makes town safe from evil. This saves one Sauron kill, and impacts minions about as heavily as before. Should be stronger and play more nicely.
  • Bombadil removed from Outsiders (he's a traveler now!)
  • New outsider:** Palantír**. I don't like adding objects as roles, it feels clunky, but I think the Palantír's ability fits perfectly here. I could see Pippin instead, as he's the one who screws up and exposes the Fellowship to the Palantír. The ability is a common "let the Demon see the Grimoire (sans the One Ring)" outsider. Pretty brutal on this script, honestly.
  • New Mouth of Sauron ability: instead of poisoning your neighbors (which was game-warping and surprisingly hard to trace), the Mouth of Sauron may misregister as good or as an Outsider (not Townsfolk). There is less droison on the script now, but I think that's okay for this one.
  • Witch-King: The first part of the ability has been weakened, and the second has been strengthened. He now knows which character last had the Ring, but won't end games out of nowhere if they're lucky, but they now poisons choice characters. Might be better than poisoner, and therefore broken, but we will see.
  • New Aragorn tweak. He now changes Outsiders to Townsfolk when he passes the Ring instead of killing them. Should be a pretty substantial buff, and just enough to push him into being downright strong.
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And in case any of you get the chance, I'm trying to run a ribbon-cutting game for this edition!
https://botc.app/join/lotr

Blood on the Clocktower Online
Public Game Session 'lotr' (6 open seats)

Chat language: English
Edition: Homebrew (LotR: Ringbearer by Bim)
Phase: ⌛ in between games
Storyteller(s): Bim
7 Player(s):
⚪ Ann, ⚪ Seat 2, ⚪ Seat 3,
⚪ Seat 4, ⚪ Seat 5, ⚪ Seat 6,
⚪ Seat 7
You can join this session with a free account!

hardy totem
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what a chaos game

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but fun

placid gull
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Playtest notes:

  • I liked the concept of MoS misregistering rather than poisoning, and it was better, but this script has misregistration that ranges from "not really consequential" to "if an ST does this it ruins the game", so I'd like to work on a new disruption ability, but I don't know what yet.
  • Town is still pretty info-light, which was somewhat expected, but the script isn't built well to accommodate low-info.
  • I'd like to make minion-hunting more viable. Currently, confirmation is plentiful and finding evils is hard, and that imbalance causes a very specific play-patterns to emerge that aren't necessarily desirable.
  • Executions, evidently, need to be incentivized. I think the amount executions were valued was skewed because of Balrog specifically, but I do think they could use a bit of incentive
  • I'd like to find some technology to create an "alarm bell" when a Minion gets the Ring, cuz currently that flies under the radar too often.
  • The travellers are fun (relatively speaking, they aren't everyone's jam), but need a bit of balance tweaking (as expected), which is good cuz I have ideas :)
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This is so far, at least

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I'm in the player's seat now, so I'll know how this feels

analog forge
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Hi Bim, thanks for the game, it was really fun. Wanted to share my thoughts.

  • I was Gollum and Sauron killed me Day 1. This really contributed to some huge early confirmation chains
  • Aragorn started learning roles in play immediately starting N2, that turned out to be very strong.
  • Galadriel learned I was Gollum, which I didn't claim to anyone, so that was strong confirmation. (Galadriel's entry in the almanac looks very out of date)
  • Legolas learned Aragorn and Eowyn, and Eowyn shot Legolas. Aragorn learned Legolas. This was a pretty impervious confirmation chain.
  • The minions claiming Merry/Pippin was interesting. They cooked up some good statements. I will claim a moral victory for nominating one of them day 1 since the second Merry/Pippin to claim is an easy way to slide in and make a drunk-sounding statement, although when I heard
  • Saruman wished to turn into the Witch-King, which seemed pretty underpowered. Wishes are a cool mechanic, but they seem hard to figure out what is the power limit of a good wish if you are new to the script.
  • A savvy Witch-King could have easily wrecked our confirmation chain by choosing Legolas on Night 1.
  • Is there any point for a Witch-King to poison Galadriel, except for the Galadriel to make it harder to confirm themselves?
  • I loved the Shelob information. Conceptually a very cool character. Our Shelob player seemed very socially trusted when they outed their info, it ended up being very strong. I do worry Shelob is a "win more" character -- figure out which team seems to be winning and then swap to that team and provide accurate/misinfo accordingly.

My general play experience was that it was cool to build a confirmation chain, but it happened a little too fast with living players. I would want Sauron to be killing players as fast as they can build the confirmation chain, so there is a dwindling number of trusted players that can hold the ring.

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What about something like allowing Sauron two kills if there are no executions?

placid gull
# analog forge Hi Bim, thanks for the game, it was really fun. Wanted to share my thoughts. - I...

I'll respond to each of these, if that's okay!

  • This is true!
  • This is true, we had never seen Aragorn trigger before, and it turned out to be quite good, even when we gave relatively weak answers. It is an almost-king, so that makes sense.
  • Shoot! I knew I was forgetting something before the Almanac rollout. Thank you for pointing that out.
  • I knew I was building a strong confirmation chain there, which was probably not advisable in a game with no Wormtongue. However, we were deliberately letting good be abnormally strong as an experiment, that maybe went overboard right there.
  • They cooked up excellent statements! I was really impressed with those bluffs.
  • That's a reasonable criticism of wishes. I think that wish would've been better earlier, but it ended up very poorly positioned. I will negotiate powerful wishes to be weaker, but I hadn't considered negotiating weak wishes to be stronger. I'll have to consider how that should be handled.
  • A savvy witch-king probably always picks Legolas night 1 in the blind, which I didn't realize until I saw the character tokens in my digital grimoire. Probably a flaw.
  • I think that's about the only reason. Galadriel is interesting in terms of power, I think Witch-King usually has better targets though.
  • I think I really liked the suggested Shelob change where the choice happens on a specific night, so it's more deliberate from Shelob. Interestingly, I at one point had "each night become the alignment of the losing team", but then I realized that the traveller would be reserved for people who wanted to play on hard mode, which I figured would be next to 0 on a homebrew script.

That Sauron idea is very interesting, it effectively forces town into always executing. Wondering if that will play any differently than a known Vortox. Will consider, thank you!
(I hope you had fun, even though those games were sort of rough around the edges. Happy to have you play!)

hard patioBOT
#

Gave +1 Thanks to @analog forge (current: #2300 - 1)

jaunty wedge
#

Fun games :) not totally balanced but fun

analog forge
#

Some brainstorming, no thought towards balance or viability

Thematically, it makes sense if Mouth of Sauron is a loud minion, rather than one that blends in. In the books he tries to intimidate/cajole the forces of good into surrendering. What about something like: "Each night (not the first), choose a player. They learn something, then (once) they can choose to become evil."

The statement can be true or false, it is just something the ST can cook up to entice the player to turn.

The Mouth could choose Sauron, this lets the ST feed info to Sauron.

The player who gets the statement: 1) knows there is a Mouth in play, 2) can choose to out it to town, or turn evil and keep it secret, or bide their time to play both sides.

If a player chooses to turn evil and then doesn't, they know someone else has turned evil, but they won't know unless they take the plunge.

The evil player is (probably) not a minion, just an evil-turned townsfolk or outsider, and wouldn't need to be killed to defeat Sauron.

analog forge
#

Also, I think there should be more reasons for people to talk to Sauron. Perhaps a player needs to make a claim not in public, but to Sauron (with an ST watching) in order to get info. Maybe Sauron does or does not get to learn that info along with the good player.

If Sauron does not learn the info, then lots of people are incentivized to go to Sauron to claim in an "I am Spartacus" kind of thing. The visit would have to be longer than just popping in and saying "I claim X" for it to be cover for a minion to chat with Sauron.

If Sauron does learn the info -- well I'm not really sure what that would mean. But it's interesting to think about

placid gull
placid gull
analog forge
#

Ah, I am not up on the history of the homebrew. I'd popped into a public lobby a while ago and scanned the script and really liked the theme and the Ringbearer mechanic that underpinned it all, so I was excited to sit down for a game

#

Anyway, it was interesting enough that it got my imagination fired up, so please consider it a big compliment 🙂 Writing a homebrew from scratch isn't easy

hardy totem
#

Maybe sauron should be able to eject travelers without input. Versus travelers to at least appear more evil

analog forge
#

Another thought: shift the character poisoning of the witch-king to the mouth of sauron, give the witch-king "each night, if no one was executed, choose a player, they die."

#

An evil reason for a night death would be good

placid gull
placid gull
placid gull
analog forge
#

Alert character: "if an evil character is the ring bearer, you die." Propose it is Pippin since he lit the beacons. No idea what the ring bearer power would be.

Potentially shift Bilbo to only work when Sauron gets the ring?

jaunty wedge
#

One thing I think should be addressed next patch is the amount of mechanical hard confirmation good has on the table...
One of the big ones is the amount of extra deaths good players can create. Without a Sarumon, evil can't replicate these (especially nighttime deaths), which has led to some crazy confirmation chains that have no counterplay for Minions

SPOILER_image.png
#

I think a lot of these are supposed to be rewards for keeping the ring safe, but if Sauron has no indication that they have the ring in the first place then I don't think it should be as rewarding

#

Additionally, with the Wormtongue, good has a TON of "confirm an in-play character" abilities. However, it's pretty difficult to sense who the wormtongue is once they've been planted

#

I think things like: An outsider dies when Aragorn gets the ring, the Storyteller choosing who dies when Gimli gets the ring, Boromire dies when they get the ring but may still pass it so long as Sauron doesn't choose to sink into their corpse
that way Sauron gains information about who has the ring at the same time town does

#

might have to nerf the ability for minions to pass the ring to Sauron, though, since it heightens the chances Sauron will pick the ringbearer

#

also deters players from playing openly like before... ya actually have to conceal your role

#

-# people will be more engaged if they're told "there's reasons we can trust you, even if you're probably evil" over "you must be evil"
-# but people will leave when they are told "all of us are good, so you must be evil"

#

that, or I'd at least give evil the chance to do something like: "Each night, choose 3 players: tonight & tomorrow day, any of them might die." that way evil can mimic a couple of the deaths good can with some ST guidance to prevent them from ending the game on a whim

#

To pull that off, though, you'd have to make a balancing change like "Sauron cannot be handed the ring," that way a good player isn't confirmed every night (via the ring)

#

buuuut that would come with a whole lotta tweaks so also feel free to think of something less impactful

placid gull
#

(I pinky promise I'll give a thorough response, but my gf and I are looking at kittens we might get)

hardy totem
#

Kinda worried for the amount of proposed changes from the one game which was mostly a ST forced good victory. There is not much more ways that one game could have been more focused on good winning.

jaunty wedge
#

(thumbsup)

placid gull
#

It is true that game was a stress test
But it has shown me a few important things

jaunty wedge
#

If I had to sum it up, it's that:
A) The playstyle of good is to create a long confirmation chain via the ring that Sauron can only learn about after the ring was passed-- which an evil ringbearer could never be a part of since they just pass Sauron the ring or die; which isn't fun for evil
and B) Oftentimes games are ended prematurely when an evil minion is passed the ring; which isn't fun for good

hardy totem
#

I've dreaded this moment....

#

I agree with @jaunty wedge

jaunty wedge
#

yeahh,
but the connection between the two is that we assume an evil minion always gives sauron the ring-- it ends the game and they're team wins, why wouldn't you?
but if that were not an option, they would have the opportunity to lie about ringbearer info, previously holding the ring would no longer be hard confirmation that you are good, & more games would reach a final 3 (which is the goal for any storyteller in a standard game of clocktower)

hardy totem
#

This is just a thought

#

What about the Will of the Ring?

#

maybe there should be a chance for the ring to drift on its own

placid gull
#

I think my step (when I get home tonight) is to make a list of characters, and outline everything about them I find problematic

Then, (hopefully with your help) I can figure out solutions (such as changing the character's ability or a mechanic or an evil ability)

#

My brief, on the road comments about what was said:

hardy totem
#

Bim you've let me down with quotes. But that said I'll offer my feeble assistance

jaunty wedge
#

And my toothpaste! (LotR was about brushing your teeth, I think)

placid gull
#

I think the Ring serving as confirmation in and of itself is very cool; but I underestimated the strength of it. With that in mind, I can tone down info rewards for getting the Ring.

I find it difficult to tune evil hunting here; evil has very little room for error because no evil players are expendible like minions on other scripts. I think more "red herrings" is probably a helpful solution (recluses or Oathbreakers, or actual fortune teller misregs) that would let me buff minion hunting (and make Eowyn less crazy strong)

I'm good to weaken some confirmation (especially the less interesting ones like Galadriel), but I think it's even more fun to grant the Evil team some viable ways to bluff confirmation.

#

Those are just my broad strokes, I've got more specific things but I'll update those out

#

Really the hard part of each update is changing half the almanac

#

Man, it really is cool that the community has engaged with something I made, this whole script has been one of my favorite creative endeavors so far

jaunty wedge
#

I think it's great!
it's pretty rare ya see people hop into a new(er) homebrew & sit down ta play, so ,, even though I never had a part in this project until recently I really want it to live up to expectations

placid gull
#

I'm very pleased that I've actually put games together!
Players like you, Bacon, Nick Savage, and Carte that have gotten involved make it really easy to keep iterating and stay inspired

hardy totem
#

if at somepoint you wanna roundtable the characters or something just let us know a time

jaunty wedge
#

hell ye
I'll defo be there if I can

placid gull
#

How free are you two tonight?
I'm good in 4-5 hours probably

hardy totem
#

I have a game at like 7pm but around that I can

placid gull
#

We'll see if it works out then
Are there spare VCs for this sort of thing?

jaunty wedge
#

yea, I'll be free around then!

hardy totem
#

the game is actually with those central gamers group i told you about. they are doing a classic BOCT tonight online

placid gull
#

Oh that's neat!
I don't know if I'll be able to on time, this time around

placid gull
#

I'm home early, but also need a nap before any meaningful botc discussion can be had

hardy totem
#

i've got about an hour of chillin before they that game

jaunty wedge
#

sounds good!

placid gull
#

Okay I have awoken and am prepared

#

How should we go about this?

#

@jaunty wedge (because I assume Bacon is busy now)

jaunty wedge
#

oop
lemme finish this one thing & then I'll b ready!

#

I can call if ya want

placid gull
#

Whatever works!

jaunty wedge
#

okay I'm ready

placid gull
#

I'll wait for you to initiate contact 👀

hardy totem
#

dang soon

#

also bim if you want to join with central gamers let me know

lunar prairie
#

@placid gull I am looking at 4th version of the almanac and I like it a lot. I like the new outsider as well as travelers

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Ironically, I kind of think good team might be slightly stronger now (which is a good thing)

#

I didn't say anything substantial for the last week or so, so I will try to say my thoughts on each character

#

Sauron is obviously very good

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Saruman is simple and I like it

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Wormtongue +2 is great, now it can be played in 1 minion game

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I like the new Witch King more than I did the last one. I much prefer soft tracking the ring over 33% chance of immediate game over. I also much prefer the new poison, since it is much more trackable (by reverse engineering which characters would likely be poisoned)

#

I like the new MoS more than the previous one. I think communication + spy misreg is better than communication + no dashii for solvability purposes

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Gollum is very good and iconic

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Oathbreaker is very good and simple

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Denethor is good

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And simple

#

Planatie is good and simple

#

To be honest, it's already great that I have nothing critical to say about Demon, Minions and Outsiders

#

Frodo is pretty good, but I think I'd need to see more playtests to assess the strength.

#

I think with Gimli and Bilbo there might be slightly too much red tape

#

But not sure about this point, since their niches are different

#

I think with Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast we have too much wishes

#

For a script that is not themed around wishes, they can add a lot of unsolvability

#

But Gandalf's wishes are a priori the most solvable ones out of 3. I think if I was to change the ability, I'd probably change Radagast

#

Moving to Boromir

#

Ooooh

#

Ok, I do think we have too much red tape with Boromir/Gimli/Bilbo

#

Boromir's ability is very strong, it can give good team 2 executions at 4 potentially

#

I am not sure if I think that's a good thing, but I think at least 1 of Boromir/Gimli/Bilbo has to change for the sake of evil team's enjoyment of the script

#

Eowyn's good

#

Ok, yeah, I really really do think we have too much red tape with Samwise/Boromir/Gimli/Bilbo

#

Especially considering how we have the problem of players knowing that whoever passed to them is confirmed good

#

If I was to pick 2 out of these 4 red tape characters to change

#

I'd probably go for Samwise and Gimli

#

Samwise is kind of boring given that it will usually turn into "give a confirmed good player, the Fool's ability"

#

And I have heard from 2 people in 2 different games that Gimli save felt really unfair

#

I am not sure about Galadriel at all

#

Realistically speaking, Sauron cannot afford to kill evil players, so Galadriel will turn into "On D3, confirm yourself"

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And I don't really think we need anymore confirmed good players

#

I have no idea what to say about Aragorn

#

I do like the at least one outsider part

#

To be honest

#

The problem I can see is that 2/4 outsider's death straight up hurt town

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But I think Aragorn's evaluation is probably the most complex on the script

#

Treebeard is incredibly overpowered

#

It should be at least

#

Each night*

#

Moving to Legolass

#

Oh boy

#

Ok

#

We really really really really really do have too much red tape with

#

Samwise/Boromir/Gimli/Bilbo/Legolass's Ringbearer ability

#

I think at least 3 of these need to go and Legolass's Ringbearer ability would be my number 1, because it is not thematic whatsoever and should be easy enough, since you just need to modify Ringbearer and not the whole ability

#

Merry and Pippin are both good

#

Now onto travllers

#

Evil Annatar is very overpowered. And just because Bilbo exists doesn't make it fine, since characters should be balanced outside of 1 specific character (that might not be in play) being a counter

#

I think good Annatar is much weaker than the evil one

#

It requires a lot of coordination from the good team, while evil Annatar can just pick 2 random players and never say a word

#

Shelob is good

#

Radagast needs change, since we have too many wish based characters

#

I think evil Bombadil is straight up overpowered, since realistically from Sauron's perspective he can either point to 1) Ringbearer 2) Minion 3) Boromir. He will know that 2 is false, because he knows his minions. Having a character give 50%+ chance for evils to just straight up win doesn't feel good

#

Balrog seems fun, but I am not sure where I'd put it in terms of balance

#

But to be clear this is incredible progress

#

I have no issues whatsoever with demon, minions or outsiders

#

Only Townsfolk and Travelers need change IMO

#

That's my thoughts at least @placid gull

analog forge
#

Potential Legolas nerf to "learn 1 in play character, ringbearer: learn another"? Thinking mostly how Legolas is an auto poison choice much of the time.

#

The more I think of Galadriel the less I like her power. Initially I thought of her as a reverse undertaker, but because Sauron has no incentive to kill a minion, Galadriel will only learn something about good players, it really only serves to self confirm. It is hard to bluff with no grimoire peekers besides palantir, and poisoning Galadriel doesn't seem to serve much purpose except to maybe paint her as a minion who decided to go into hard mode.

lunar prairie
placid gull
#

okay alrighty okay

#

so here's the situation

#

the last playtest session was rough around the edges

#

and I learned a lot of hard lessons

placid gull
#

interestingly @lunar prairie, you have a lot of the same on-paper thoughts that I did about how these would play out. However, I think we were wrong for a lot of reasons.

Confirmation chains are wildly strong, minion hunting and executions are wildly weak, the evil team does not have enough ability to replicate mechanical bluffs (sans Saruman)
those are the broad-strokes biggest issues that will be addressed

Next almanac will be radically shifted in context

Many Ringbearer abilities will be removed. I liked "all Townsfolk have Ringbearer abilities" because those abilities felt fun and cool, and they made spent characters have some further use, and they gave Sauron hints as to the Ring's location
But many Ringbearer abilities felt wordy, redundant, uninspired, and just sort of "tacked on". I will only be preserving Ringbearer abilities that add something truly interesting, and worth the extra words, to characters.
Merry, Pippin, Treebeard, Bilbo (and more) will all be losing their Ringbearers, I think.

Minions will actually be changing again. I liked MoS on paper, but the misregistration does not play well with this script's structure. Witch-King was fine, but should always pick Legolas night 1 and otherwise didn't really add anything to the game.

While each of the Outsiders individually are fine, I think all 4 of them being hidden, harsh outsiders is really tough for good (and Aragorn). I'm going to try and make 1 or 2 of them more public.

I'm also going to change abilities like Gimli and Legolas to protect less against Sauron choosing the Ringbearer (which has never happened so far), and more towards preventing the Ring being passed to evil (which has happened most games). I think this is especially nice because Sauron finding the Ring is the "fun win" and passing the Ring to evil is the "lame win".

Good Balrog proved fairly busted, so that may be changing. We shall see.

#

the script's problems are beginning to feel like a mound of sand that I'm trying to gather with my hands, and it feels unmanageable.

I may scrap much and simplify greatly, or revert a version or two in order to restore my point of reference.

hardy totem
#

Refine to base and add after

#

Complications and additional fun can be added to a solid base

lunar prairie
lunar prairie
placid gull
lunar prairie
#

Oathbreaker has a kind of inspired simplicity that is also thematic

placid gull
#

On that, we agree

lunar prairie
#

I do think Townsfolk are the most problematic

placid gull
#

I'd also like to preserve Saruman mostly as-is, for the record

#

Everyone else is subject to scrutiny in my mind

lunar prairie
#

I think we also might need some heavy changes to the Fabled

placid gull
#

Sauron killing Ringbearer is fine, but minions usually don't have to trick good in a cunning move, but can instead just sort of get lucky early and the game ends with no-one's knowledge

lunar prairie
#

I do think if we can get just the right Fabled text, then other stuff will follow

#

Because the problems you are describing are fundamental

#

I don't think we can change them just by tweaking townsfolk

#

Also, Palanthir is also pretty cool?

#

But not as cool as the other two

placid gull
# lunar prairie I do think if we can get just the right Fabled text, then other stuff will follo...

let me outline the solutions we discussed, and why they didn't work

1: Sauron can't obtain the Ring at all

  • Unintuitive, less flavorful
  • Evil can just work around this, by obtaining the Ring, handing it to someone, and telling Sauron who it is

2: Sauron can only obtain the Ring based on some condition

  • Has the same problems as the last one with even more complexity

3: Evil can't ever be passed the Ring

  • Outs evil if ever passed the Ring, makes Ring confirmation chains even more strong

4: If an evil player bears the Ring, the Ringbearer can't be killed by Sauron until that minion dies

  • Complex and clunky
  • Makes it feel genuinely really bad to hold the Ring as a minion, where it should feel pretty good

5: Evil auto-passes to good or the Ring might drift on its own

  • Almost works, but evil then has to explain why they don't know who has the Ring to the person that passed it to them. Some solutions like "just make the Ring auto-pass for no reason sometimes" exist, but are just not very cool or interesting.

6: The ST chooses a Ringbearer every night.

  • Makes the Ring not have any agency, just sort of creates a damsel every single night, takes a lot away from the script

In a sense, I want to have my cake and eat it too. I want the evil team to be rewarded for tricking good into giving them the Ring, but I want that trick to be earned, not as easy as it currently is.

lunar prairie
#
  1. Ringbearer abilities for evil but no Sauron passing?
placid gull
#

Still has the workaround, pass to good and have Sauron kill them

lunar prairie
#

As in, removing the whole win condition thing

#

No no no

#

I mean

#

Straight up removing the ring related win condition but making extremely strong evil Ringbearer abilities

#

It's a revisionist option to be sure

placid gull
#

I mean
It would work?
But not be nearly as fun or unique

#

I think that's my plan C nuclear option

lunar prairie
jaunty wedge
#

reading all this and nodding my head

#

main problems are: Too much confirmation, Ring needs more movement that prevents evil from winning too quickly, & good are just using their abilities to kill instead of executing

placid gull
#

I think 1 and 3 are honestly really easy fixes

#

But I don't feel equipped to fix them until we address what's fundementally wrong: a minion does not have to work that hard to get the Ring

jaunty wedge
#

yeaah

jaunty wedge
#

I'm thinking up of ways for the ring's location to be obscured

placid gull
#

Yea I'm getting nowhere fast thinking of solutions

#

this is me, realizing that Steven Medway is a far more intelligent man than I

analog forge
#

It's the reverse of the normal problem

#

The normal problem is the demon can be accidentally killed in some random nom, ending the game with a good win. That's a little bit less likely here, since you have to execute typically two minions for that to happen. However, good can lose instantly with a lucky Sauron kill, or with an unlucky ring pass

#

As you've stated, the former being less of an issue but the later being pretty common

#

So, evil gets some failsafes in normal BotC. Scarlet woman, evil twins, mastermind

#

Bilbo is currently good's failsafe

placid gull
#

Cole and I did run through some possibilities for in-game failsafes, and they weren't bad, but they definitely felt like band-aids over the serious wound that is the fundemental problem

#

we altered Gimli and Legolas to be failsafes against the latter issue rather than the former, which they currently defend against

#

perhaps if I truly finish that idea, we can make this work, and I suppose it can't hurt me to try, even if I think the solution ought to be more ground-level

placid gull
#

when Cole is done typing, I have a crazy idea

jaunty wedge
#

Alright, I have cooked up some ideas
Problem: Good will never lie about who they passed the ring & ring-passing abilities.
Solution: Create situations where a good ringbearer can lose track of the ring.

"The ring is secretly not passed."
--> This functions the same as a Drunk or a Lunatic: “You think you do not have the ring, but you do.” As a consequence, the Storyteller will not tell the player they kept the ring, nor will they activate that player’s Ringbearer ability-- (even if Gandalf goes to make a wish on a whim. In order to make them think they do not have the ring, their Ringbearer ability must not work.)
--> The player will only learn that they had the ring when they must be woken to to pass it. (if viable, a minion should be able to replicate this effect.)
--> For good, this could prevent the ring from being passed to the evil-- but it doesn't instantly prove that it was to prevent the ring from being passed to evil
--> For evil, this could explain instances where evil were supposed to get the ring, but did not. This will also deter good from creating a long confirmation chain, because if this happened when they were passing the ring to an evil player-- they risk the evil player learning they must have secretly kept the ring

placid gull
jaunty wedge
#

okokok

placid gull
#

hear me out
what if:

The Ringbearer didn't have to pass the Ring?

  • Most Ringbearer abilities would either not exist, be quite loud, or be once per game, so that players can't reasonably farm Ringbearer abilities
  • A minion seriously would have to try really hard to trick someone; they'd have to make themselves be trusted enough that they have an ability worth being passed to, or that it's safer in their hands than in the current Ringbearer's
  • Players get an interesting thought; "is Sauron catching on? Should I pass the Ring?"

We can compensate Frodo's power a bit to make up for this, and it makes bluffing far more important and lets us keep all the current avenues to victory

#

I don't know how this just occurred to me, but it might be kind of real actually

jaunty wedge
#

that makes a whole lotta sense

placid gull
#

it feels stupid
like I shoulda realized this a long time ago

#

but maybe that makes it genius

jaunty wedge
#

So long as you account for Gollum, that works

#

that solves so many problems ...

placid gull
#

True, gollum needs tweaked (for the first time in history)

#

Well
My designer gloves are back on!

jaunty wedge
#

oooo

placid gull
#

I was so bummed about this issue before

placid gull
#

Okay, I'll start rolling out my changes individually to try and catch any unforseen issues early:

Merry:
You start knowing a true statement. If Pippin is in play, 1 of you receives reversed info.

(with Pippin being the same, but inversed)

No Ringbearer ability (which frees up room for inversed rather than drunk). Do we think one is necessary?

hardy totem
#

Can Pippin just start with a false statement

jaunty wedge
#

✅

placid gull
#

cuz it does feel a bit awkward to only have 1 of them say the bit about inverted info, even if it's technically more clear
it just makes them more obviously a pair on first read

jaunty wedge
#

I think it's fine if Merry has it, since you're going to be reading Merry's ability first

placid gull
#

that much is true

#

I think I'll try out the change in this release

#

and then if I don't like it I'll just revert

hardy totem
#

Still pretty worried about how many changes are going to happen after that crazy game trying to force good to win

placid gull
#

I don't think any changes are based solely on input from that game

#

these changes are supposed to fix both the good sweeps and evil sweeps

#

Some Aragorn options...

Current:
"Each night*, if no Outsiders live, you learn 1 in-play character. Ringbearer: An Outsider dies. [At least 1 Outsider]"

Could change the brackets to say "[+0 or +1 Outsiders] or something,

"Each night*, if no Outsiders live, you learn 1 in-play character. Ringbearer: Sauron learns that Aragorn was passed the Ring. [At least 1 Outsider]"
was a version that Cole and I cooked up. Aragorn was very powerful in testing, so this is him with a relatively minor downside.

There's also the radical, "Let's stop dealing with all this junk" version that is enabled by the new rule;
"You start knowing 1 in-play character. Ringbearer: Each night, learn another."
You're a King, but only as long as you bear the Ring.
Might be too strong of an upside for bearing, especially because this info doesn't need to be outed to town, mostly just to the individuals he confirms. I like how much less wordy this is, though.

my problem child still proves problematic.`

analog forge
#

Thought: thematically the one ring had a lot of power, but putting it on makes it so Sauron knows where it is

#

So maybe ringbearer abilities are "would you like to use it?" If yes, Sauron learns your name tonight, and then you choose whether to pass the ring or not

placid gull
placid gull
# lunar prairie Radagast needs change, since we have too many wish based characters

oh, I meant to respond to this particular tidbit:
I disagree, Radagast is a traveller; I don't think he'll even always get his wish when he's in play, and won't be in play in the vast majority of games

it's sort of like saying "we shouldn't have the Imp kill at night because that would cause too many deaths in combination with an evil Gunslinger"
(the comparison isn't perfect, but I think my point is clear)

analog forge
#

Theoretically you could double bluff. Sauron will know I held the ring last night, and could just kill me and win, so obviously the best thing to do is pass it. So I'll hold onto it, he'll never suspect. Or I'll just bluff Gollum or Oathbreaker

lunar prairie
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
#

I'd say minions might actually really need it, cause now the good team gets significantly stronger, so the minions should be proactive

#

With this change, I actually think only Sauron and Oathbreaker are safe

#

Maybe Saruman (but I don't feel strongly about this, since it's wishes after all)

#

Primarily, there has to be a ring tracking minion

#

This is to give incentive to pass the ring

#

I feel bad for critiquing without offering any replacements

#

But I am really bad at coming up with character designs

#

Whenever I come up with anything it's usually a slightly tweaked thing I saw somewhere else but forgot

placid gull
placid gull
#

I def get the frodo overlap concern, which is why I came up with a new line;

frozen nimbus
#

At least one outsider sets clear expectations

#

+0 or +1 doesn't

#

In a lot of situations +1 is better than +0 or +1

placid gull
frozen nimbus
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
#

Personally

#

I am not even neutral towards New Balloonist's mod, I actively dislike it

#

I like Godfather's mod for example

#

But not Balloonist's

#

But that's just me

placid gull
# frozen nimbus In a lot of situations +1 is better than +0 or +1

I know and agree with what you're saying, but my concern isn't "I'll do +0 or +1 because the character is too weak with +1" it's "some game states would be imbalanced with [at least one], so maybe flexibility is better here"

Regardless, I think my preference right now is the alternative Aragorn anyways, which has the added benefit of not continuing to argue this point that's been going on since Almanac 1.0 lol

lunar prairie
#

But in general, I do like the idea of [at least 1 outsider], maybe I will even use it someday

placid gull
#

okay, I'm gonna start rambling about the evil team

placid gull
#

obviously they're recontextualized a bit with the new rule:

Sauron:
Doesn't get talked to enough, and I'm wary that this problem will only get worse. I haven't really liked any of the suggestions to get Sauron to participate more, but I'm open to more of those. Vizier isn't in every game and gets to bluff, Sauron doesn't.

Wormtongue:
I like him even more now with the new context. I'm still undecided about tweaking his outsider count;

  • [+2] is a better baron, but unlike Baron doesn't have the same privilege to make chaotic double-claim plays because of the contingent win-condition. Also feels more solvable than [+1].
  • [+1] is pretty balanced, but doesn't have any reason to see play in 7-9 player games. :(

Saruman:
I still like Saruman, he's just flexible like that.
If Wormtongue ends up with [+1 outsider], I like Saruman having an accompanying +1, or maybe [+1/-1].
Might start adding a "1 player knows a wish was made" type of clause (for solvability), but ehh it hurts Gandalf way more than Saruman.

Witch-King:
My current thought is:
Each night, learn 2 alive characters that do not bear the Ring. Once per game, at night*, choose 1 to die.
Witch-King should be given players that are legitimate ringbearer candidates, usually. Gets stronger as the game goes on, which is nice. Allows to bluff with the Townsfolk night deaths, and also can bluff info roles in a fun sort of way.

Mouth of Sauron:
Really unsure here. Players seem to say, often, that MoS's speech ability feels weak. Conversely, I feel like it's actually been performing adequately and has the added benefit of letting Sauron talk sometimes.
I could simplify things by giving MoS the snitch "Minions get 3 bluffs", but it feels less fun and cool.
As for the second ability,

  • Poisoning a chosen character seems decent
  • Killing if players don't execute would help if town continues not to execute on this script
  • Something like a goblin or fearmonger seems like it could be fun or cool, too.
jaunty wedge
#

I was actually about ta ask you where each of the minions were at so I could cross reference

placid gull
#

Well, here you go

jaunty wedge
#

I like this Witch King ability; extra kills for evil are harsh but necessary & makes a good number of roles bluffable

placid gull
#

Inclined to agree
And the kills can be controlled by ST and never hit ringbearer so

#

If anything I worry it's a tad underpowered

jaunty wedge
#

okay, crazy idea..

#

might work but it'd need some character-length finagling

#

{Mouth of Sauron}
"The Ringbearer's character is announced, not Sauron's identity. The Ring is unpassable."
-# --> At the start of the game, before nightfall, the Storyteller does not reveal Sauron's identity. Instead, they reveal which character the ringbearer is.
-# --> Sauron still chooses a player to kill at the end of each day. This will reveal their identity. However, hiding their identity for the 1st day allows them to speak with their minions as any other demon would.
-# --> ALT: Sauron could choose not to reveal-- which.. may lead to games being stalled. We'll have to see if it's balanced.
-# --> The Ringbearer must keep their identity a secret. Until the Mouth of Sauron dies, they are the only player who can bear the ring (without an ability)
-# --> This would lead to the Ringbearer learning when the Mouth of Sauron dies... but half of the time it's the end of the game.
-# --> Most importantly, makes Ring-hunting easier while eliminating the chances for an unfun evil win

#

I don't know how to say "Only character abilities can pass the ring" because The One Ring is technically a character

#

-# --> Also, gives minions an excuse to be cagey about their "real character" since they might be talkin to Sauron! Can fall back onto anything after that

#

-# --> does create a situation where travelers can confirm their alignment.. so Radagast would have to have a tweak

#

It also just makes sense that Mouth of Sauron would be... hella loud

#

"Players are not woken to pass the ring"?

jaunty wedge
placid gull
#

interesting

#

the implications are vast

#

so, that's an interesting way to get Sauron conversing on night 1
but I also feel like it has the pretty rough effect of making day 1 feel dead for good
like, I know the absolute difference between "I could be talking to a Minion!" and "I could be talking to a Minion or to Sauron!" isn't actually that large,
but the more you tell the truth the more you're possibly revealing the actual Ringbearer's identity and that's extra risky when there's an additional evil and I feel like good would be unreasonably cagey most of the time
not to mention they probably won't execute, because anyone who lied could just be the lying because they're the publicly known Ringbearer (and less executions is not a good thing here)

#

but I might be talking nonsense, this is just how it feels like it would play off the dome

jaunty wedge
#

hmmm
I feel like this could be solved by putting in a role that either A) points towards evils & gives town a clear direction to head in (like investigator, noble, or shugenja) OR B) that gains some good info through executions (like undertaker, or cannibal)

#

that way people are like: hey, if you have any _ info, let us know now

placid gull
#

maybe...

#

it's also just...wild

#

so I'm intrinsically worried about it

jaunty wedge
#

yeee it's pretty wild

placid gull
#

so like
let's talk about the Mouth of Sauron

#
  • Extreme devotion to Sauron, not in it for selfish gain but for worship
  • Tries to intimidate and cajole the good team (not just in the actual narrative bit, but his known history is him basically going around and lowering morale)
  • Is speculated to be the person that tortured Gollum for information
  • I've seen debates about Aragorn's decapitation of the Mouth (in the movies) as unjust and war-crime-y, after all he presented himself as an unarmed messenger and nothing more and was decapitated despite presenting no threat (in the books he isn't killed definitively)
lunar prairie
#

Wow, I missed a lot

placid gull
lunar prairie
#

Wait a sec, my notifs aren't working

#

That's why

placid gull
#

ohhh

#

that explains it

lunar prairie
#

Alright, that's fixed

#

Let me see what I missed

placid gull
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
placid gull
lunar prairie
#

Also allows for some creativity

lunar prairie
placid gull
hardy totem
#

One lore thing I feel is missing is the rings corruption

lunar prairie
lunar prairie
#

This is just straight up a different gamemode

placid gull
lunar prairie
#

That's if we want to add it

placid gull
lunar prairie
#

Man, Cole's idea is so unique compared to what we have, that I think it is really good

#

Just on that uniqueness alone

#

We can always balance around it

jaunty wedge
#

I'm troubled--
cause it is very game-changy

lunar prairie
#

But that's the great thing

#

If only all 3 can be this game changing

#

4*

jaunty wedge
#

like I could argue that I'd be super intimidated if my character was revealed to be holding the ring all I want but ultimately I don't wanna take over Bim's project with somethin this radical

lunar prairie
#

I feel like the more radical the better, which is why I love Gollum and Sauron

placid gull
#

I know Carte is a sucker for novelty
But for this homebrew I'm sort of not
The script itself is a radical context-shift, and it requires substantial buy-in from players to want to play something this load-bearing to begin with

Novelty is good when it's simple or intuitive
Gollum is pretty easy to understand, but this proposed idea I think feels homebrew, in a way that puts people (including, here, me) off a little bit.

Cole's idea is great. It's really cool and I'd love to do something with it.
But sadly, I really don't like the idea of a player rolling in and me explaining "read the fabled then read Sauron and here's how wishes work and also there's an entire second game mode that you also have to prepare for"

jaunty wedge
#

If anything, I'd consider making it a 2nd demon type

#

buuuut that's throw off a whoooole lotta balance

lunar prairie
placid gull
# jaunty wedge If anything, I'd consider making it a 2nd demon type

That part I've at least thought about
If nothing because Ungolliant and Smaug and such would be fun

At some point I'll probably roll out a super secret elite club "veteran version" with 4 demons
But that'll come after this script is famous and has enough veteran players to get a whole game together

lunar prairie
jaunty wedge
#

Like.. I cooked & the food is prestine but everything else in the oven was burnt to ash ash

lunar prairie
#

Yeah, tbh we have enough issues with just 1 demon

#

I really think we should work from demon --> minions --> outsiders --> townsfolk

placid gull
lunar prairie
#

At some point we have to lock some characters, because otherwise are walking in circles

#

Cause we balanced everything, but then townsfolk got rebalanced and then demon and then fabled and we pretty much have to start from scratch

#

We have to be balancing around something

placid gull
#

Well I'm pretty much happy with (with exception to minor tweaks and knobs)

  • Saruman
  • Sauron
  • Wormtongue
  • Gollum
  • Oathbreaker (probably)
  • Merry
  • Samwise
  • Frodo
  • Gandalf
lunar prairie
placid gull
#

That, in my opinion, is a minor tweak here

lunar prairie
#

Ah alright

#

Well yeah, it's easy enough

placid gull
#

His character is the same but with "each night, you might lose the Ring" or something

jaunty wedge
#

I find it funny Gollum of all people can lose the ring

placid gull
#

I mean that's his tragedy right

jaunty wedge
#

yeppp

placid gull
#

"It's lost! My precious is loooooost!"
-actual quote

lunar prairie
jaunty wedge
#

I mean
even if it is an outsider, we still don't want Gollum accidentally passing the ring to evil

placid gull
lunar prairie
#

I feel like at that point, that would be Gollum's fault, cause realistically he is getting the ring N3-N4

placid gull
#

I could go either way on it tbh

placid gull
jaunty wedge
#

I'd have to agree with those

jaunty wedge
#

mmkay, so if I were a minion who:
kills & seeks the ringbearer (Witch King)
what would I want my ability to be..

#

what would be fun..
what would be something that makes me feel like the evil genius and king of witchcraft...

placid gull
#

The current one doesn't do that? 🥺

jaunty wedge
#

It does!
I just want to see if I can improve upon it ,,

placid gull
#

Ok ok

hardy totem
#

Coles lotr script will have black jack and hookers

rigid jay
#

Nice role ability. Would have never thought of it myself.

image.png
placid gull
#

Lmao that's crazy I thought the export worked last time

#

Character is getting reworked anyways :P

#

For now consider it one night ultimate werewolf inspired

jaunty wedge
#

The Ringbearer... if I cannot have them, then I want their allies. Who they hold close. Who they trust. That. That will instill fear.
"Each night*, choose 2 players: a chosen Ringbearer kills their 1st good choice & then chooses again."
-# --> Note: choosing to keep the ring counts as choosing yourself. :]

placid gull
#

Okay,,,,, woah

#

That's cool af

#

Ok now to analyze

#

Firstly; what happens if Ringbearer keeps holding? We've established that not passing is often stronger. Do they kill themselves and then pass?

jaunty wedge
#

what I had in mind is that:
--> Ringbearer chooses themselves. They die, because they are good.
--> Storyteller tells them "This character has selected you" "[Witch King Token]"
--> Ringbearer must choose another player. That player gets the ring

hardy totem
#

Man really wants to change the witch King

jaunty wedge
#

I'm just trying to make something that reaches the "yeah, this character is only getting minor tweaks, if any" stage

#

especially for minions cause they're really important

placid gull
#

#2: this is way louder. Not necessarily bad, but worth noting.

Truthfully, I don't think witch-king is getting to the "minor tweaks only" stage until a couple more almanacs

jaunty wedge
#

yeeah, unfortunately it has the vibe of "doing a trick with a tech deck" rather than "sneakily planting a kill for evil," which makes it impossible to bluff good kills in the night again

#

-# awww it was so elegant and then I realized "If 3 players live, you lose this ability"

#

-# I recreated witch sob

rigid jay
#

Can you have a 1-minion game with Wormtongue?

placid gull
placid gull
placid gull
rigid jay
#

I see why it has the +2 Outsiders bit now.

placid gull
#

Yea, in another script I think +1 would be more balanced but context etc.

#

Still not even positive

hardy totem
#

It has been genuinely interesting seeing how you guys think about this stuff. I would approach it a world differently so this has been educational

placid gull
#

I think that's awesome!

hardy totem
#

I tend to work on foundations and rules a lot so not used to interacting like that

placid gull
#

interacting like what?

hardy totem
#

Like you set up base rules and their priorities

#

From there you'd set up scenarios you'd want to see

#

After you've done all that you then find powers that fit those slots

placid gull
#

that's...a good summary actually. It's weird to watch processes be analyzed like that :P

hardy totem
#

Oh no that's how I do it how you guys tend to do it is picking a part of power and trying to figure out how you want it to work

#

I think of it more like masonry work and I think you guys think of it like engineers

jaunty wedge
#

I am omw to a degree in civil engineering so... I suppose your right lmao

hardy totem
#

I might not be doing it justice I'm more of a verbal person than written

placid gull
#

my degree is in creative writing so uhhhhh I don't know if that makes me particularly engineer-esque but

#

I'd say the later stages feel more like engineering
but the beginning was very "what do I want to happen? Oh, okay make a role for that"

#

and we worked our way from bottom to top, and now have to work back from top to bottom

#

regardless,

hardy totem
#

I don't really want to write it all out but when you have a minute I'll chat with you and tell you didn't mean to cause confusion

placid gull
#

no confusion (I don't think)

#

either way, back to the subject at hand

#

still struggling with MoS
whatever it does, I'd like if it made Sauron have more play

#

I want MoS to convince good that there is no hope, and if they give in to despair evil wins

#

but I have no idea what that looks like

frozen nimbus
#

just spitballing

#

its extremely strong information for both teams

#

its very public

#

Each night, choose 3 players: everyone learns who and if one of them has the ring. The Ring cannot be passed to a player chosen last night.

placid gull
#

I assume that's "learns who is chosen" and not "learns who has the Ring"?

frozen nimbus
#

yeah

#

everyone learns who is chosen

#

and a yes if one of them has the ring

#

or a no if none of them do

#

Each night, choose 3 alive players: everyone learns who & if one of them has the ring. & it cannot be passed to them tomorrow night.

placid gull
#

I'm thinking about this one.
It's a little much to resolve each night, but it might be worth it.

frozen nimbus
#

the passing the ring bit might be too much

#

but it feels fitting flavourfully

#

Each night, choose half of alive players: everyone learns who & if one of them has the ring.

#

probably more balanced, the idea is that the evil team will have a lot easier of a time knowing who has the ring

#

leading to more panic scrams for finding the last minion

rigid jay
#

Does Frodo need to hold the ring for 3 consecutive nights?

placid gull
#

Yea

#

I think consecutive used to be in the text box but I ran out of room

#

But now with the new change there's some more room so I might add it back for clarity

lunar prairie
frozen nimbus
#

Since it splits it in 2

#

And both of the 2 sides are equally as important

#

I'd say an almanac can specify that the St either locks a number for it pregame or allows the mos to round up or down as they please

rigid jay
placid gull
#

Yes, holding on to wormtongue is a risk for Sauron

placid gull
#

Hey anyone tuning in; there's a sneak peek of the new update in this playtest...

https://botc.app/join/lotr

Blood on the Clocktower Online
Public Game Session 'lotr' (10 open seats)

Chat language: English
Edition: Homebrew (LotR: Ringbearer by Bim)
Phase: ⌛ in between games
Storyteller(s): Bim
11 Player(s):
⚪ Chloe the Barbarian, ⚪ Seat 2, ⚪ Seat 3,
⚪ Seat 4, ⚪ Seat 5, ⚪ Seat 6,
⚪ Seat 7, ⚪ Seat 8, ⚪ Seat 9,
⚪ Seat 10, ⚪ Seat 11
You can join this session with a free account!

hardy totem
#

Notes:
change night order for witch king to help mouth of Sauron
add aragorn to night order
denathor change ability to night
legolas reminder tokens
remove legolas from other night order
poison of legolas too strong for mouth of sauron
when getting good character ring fumbles
merry/pippin nightorder remove
samwise feels weak with delaying game for a chance to confirm (weak virgin) (maybe chose 2? bigger chance of working?)
towns folk feeling out of the loop when not involved with the ring
denathor is too much ST choosing less player driven to a fault

#

note pad data dumb

#

still more balanced more towards evil winning

placid gull
#

Win Rate Update:
Evil: 7
Good: 3
Gollum: 1

hardy totem
#

1 of those goods did have been and cole working together with confirmation

#

that is fairly inflated towards good

analog forge
#

Tonight I played as Galadriel and Sauron.

Galadriel: Still a self-confirming role, but nice and simple now. I was unsure whether to hold it or use it, ultimately I decided to just use it Night 1 and see how it went. I was able to immediately go to Samwise, claim to be Galadriel, and got their hard claim back, and we began a confirmation chain. Generally this seems like a nice start to a confirmation chain. In retrospect, if Samwise had given me the ring plus protection on Night 2, it would have been a strong start, but Sauron killed me Day 1, so there was no chance of that.

I realized that evil has room to bluff as Galadriel because of Denethor being on the script. Saying "I am Galadriel and I learned you are the ringbearer" could easily be Denethor-false, or Witch-King poisoned. And if you happen to get a confirmation yes, then that's actually almost a free win for evil. So I like that about the character.

I am not sure what kind of situations are useful to hold it. On night 1 you are guaranteed to get a good player. The remaining days become quite situational, if you learn an evil player you wouldn't know they are evil.

In our game there were 2 blind passes to good with no pass-protection roles, so we lucked out there. If we had coordinated our confirmation chain we probably could have played a bit safer for at least one of those passes.

The Saruman wish to witch-kill anyone who nominated Bacon was very cool, some players were very confused but as soon as it seemed like a wish, I dropped suss on Bacon (others seemed suspicious still). I think it might have actually been better if it was allowed to kill the ringbearer (then the ring would pass to another player), because if it didn't, Saruman would just need to out that info to Sauron for that day's kill to win. It did make me realize the value of a Saruman wish to simply add confusion to the town.

Ultimately the Saruman extra kill sactually narrowed the pool of minion candidates and helped good to win.

placid gull
hard patioBOT
#

Gave +1 Thanks to @analog forge (current: #1917 - 2)

analog forge
#

Sauron: I've actually never played an outed evil role so far in Clocktower, so I wasn't sure of what to expect. It turned out to be pretty relaxing.

It was a Wyrmtongue game so I outed that to town and said I was accepting nominations for Wormtongue. It ended up being really fun, I had 4 private chats with 2 players who wanted it (the first was Lemon, who was Frodo and claimed to be Samwise, amazing), Oathbreaker who took the opportunity to out, and my minion who took the opportunity to get the bluffs. In public two more said they were open to it and the one player who definitely didn't want it I nominated and nearly got on the block for the memes. Very fun stuff.

I was accidentally not woken night 2, but I didn't really have a solid plan for a Wormtongue pick, so that was fine.

Day 2 I had two more applicants, including a player who outed to be Gimli and was responsible for the night death (which was very useful info since my minion was Witch King who could have also done it). I was leaning toward turning Gimli on Night 3.

The game ended prematurely when I happened to pick the ringbearer. That was just blind luck (I just picked a player who didn't express a strong opinion about the Wormtongue campaign). It wasn't particularly fun or unfun in the circumstances. I wonder if a sudden death condition might be more fun -- e.g. if Sauron kills the ringbearer, it passes to an evil player that night. Then town has to scramble. But that might be too much with other characters who just didn't happen to be in the bag (Boromir I think)

#

I was looking forward to outing that I had made Wormtongue last night out of one of the applicants, thank the applicants publically by name, and see if anyone would start to tunnel or feel like it was a bluff or double bluff.

I will probably do the same play the next time I play as Sauron, I would like to see how it plays out. It would also be really interesting to take Wormtongue applications when there is no Wormtongue, see how quickly town figures it out.

jaunty wedge
#

so sad we never got to see the end of this bit

#

oh yea, and the feedback is appreciated too

placid gull
# analog forge Tonight I played as Galadriel and Sauron. Galadriel: Still a self-confirming ro...

Okay, I finally have a moment to respond!

These write-ups are excellent, as always. I look forward to them after every playtest.

I think you played Galadriel as well as expected. I see how the ability may be better off spent on N1 consistently. At some point, Galadriel learned the character that bore the Ring rather than the player, and I changed it out of an abundance of caution for confirmation. Just learning the player does situationally make it worse if spent when, for example, an evil player has the Ring. Might go for an in-between, "learn the Ringbearer & their alignment", but I could see the character becoming too powerful there. Just a balancing act.

When Cole introduced Denethor to me as a concept, it fit so perfectly for characters like Galadriel (and Gimli, and Boromir, and so many more) that I still think it was nothing short of genius design on his part.
These possible bluffs are great, and I love giving Galadriel as an evil bluff to encourage the hail-mary "I learned you have the Ring" play.

Good won that game, but I agree the chain was perhaps underutilized. If I remember correctly, I had deliberately tried to forge two confirmation chains separately that never overlapped, as to try and divide town.

The Saruman wish was excellent. Confusion is a powerful tool, and that was maybe the least subtle example and still quite powerful. Some players have argued that wishes greatly reduce solvability, but that was at least one example that demonstrated otherwise. It helped town a lot.

As for the details of the wish, it was actually written such that it couldn't kill Outsiders or the Ringbearer (as to avoid guaranteed outed RB), but I accidentally screwed up an ST call and killed Gollum with it, so I pretended as though that rule didn't exist. I think the "kill, then pass" mechanic was probably far more elegant, and if solved by town would actually allow them to permanently kite the Sauron grab, as a valid ring would never exist. Intersting...

placid gull
# analog forge Sauron: I've actually never played an outed evil role so far in Clocktower, so I...

The way you played Sauron may be my favorite rendition of the character yet! The Wormtongue applications process was hilarious, and legitimately strong, I think. You got to learn Gimli and a Frodo suspect off of it, for example.

I'm very pleased that Frodos have consistently realized their chance to bait Wormtongue out of Sauron, I was worried that play would be obscure and it has proved totally the opposite.

Sorry again for the ST mistake night 2, thanks for your grace!

Gimli would've been a strong pick, as they had confirmed themselves and would've gotten two kills by then.

Boromir actually was in the bag that game, it just so happened that they were your night 1 kill! So you got very lucky between the blind Boromir kill and the blind Ringbearer kill.
Such luck is the risk with the structure of the script, but town didn't seem to mind too much. I wouldn't mind adding 1 or 2 more safety valves against that sort of thing, but it's hard to add them without being too harsh to evil.

As for the relay/sudden death idea, I actually think that is probably(?) more balanced, but I do think it's less intuitive and the tension in each of Sauron's picks might be lost. I will definitely be considering this change, I have to remember that no rule is sacred.

I think Sauron bluffing that there's a Wormtongue floating around is very cool, and it's awesome how you went about instilling fear; perhaps you wouldn't infiltrate a confirmation chain, but you would at least cast doubt on all of them.
It seems like you felt very engaged as Sauron, which was a concern last playtest. I think Wormtongue does allow for an above-average amount of play there, and I think town had a great attitude towards Sauron as well.

Again, I look forward to seeing you cast as Sauron again, and think that bluffing Wormtongue's presence could be very fun.

Thanks for the great games and great feedback, as always!

hard patioBOT
#

Gave +1 Thanks to @analog forge (current: #1715 - 3)

hardy totem
#

I am concerned that too much of the roles are now mostly/completely at the ST's discretionary.
Merry
Pippin
legolas
aragorn
gandalf
denethor
saruman

#

Denthor feels a bit more railroady since there is no player choice at any point and happens randomly

analog forge
#

I did wonder if Denethor could fire too many times. It could be tuned to be once per minion, for example, to exclude Sauron and Oathbreaker. Maybe needs a stress test?

placid gull
placid gull
# hardy totem I am concerned that too much of the roles are now mostly/completely at the ST's ...

I don't think that most of these are problematic. If Legolas, Merry, and Pippin count then surely TB's top 4 all count...

Wishes are mostly player-controlled, just balanced by ST. Less agency than artist, but more than fisherman (and even then, players can get way more creative)

Denethor is the big one, here, and I've tweaked it to act less, so while yes it's totally up to the storyteller I don't really think it's much/any harsher than a drunk, for example.

hardy totem
#

Top 4 roles in TB are specified information Minion Town player seats/ outsider

#

pippin and merry are just a statement

placid gull
hardy totem
#

But it's easy enough to break it down what base script do you feel has as much ST distrretion?

placid gull
# hardy totem But it's easy enough to break it down what base script do you feel has as much S...

I mean, BMR has quite a lot. Lunatics, Tinker, Gossip kill direction, Shab resurrections, Sailor/innkeeper drunking, pacifist triggers

that's the same number of characters you listed (and I'm not sure Aragorn and Legolas belong on the list), and some have worse potential outcomes IMO than this.

S&V doesn't have the same sheer amount, but does still have a good chunk (Savant comes across as very consequential, and madness calls are significant)

TB has any character that misregisters under the Recluse and Spy, and the way poisoner/drunk work in general are pretty ST dependent

I think the amount of ST agency in the script is pretty necessary given the general lack of mechanics like poison, madness, random kills, and misregistration that normally award that sort of agency to an ST in base 3.

frozen nimbus
#

st discretion is great with a good st

#

also people need to understand what to expect

#

which can be done by an almanac

placid gull
#

I'm fine to be told if some of these roles have muddled expectations; I know the wishes, for one, have this problem.
But is the expectation for Denethor really that unclear?

frozen nimbus
placid gull
#

(almanac should be out by the end of the night if I keep this pace up)

frozen nimbus
#

i dont think so for denethor

#

its a less dangerous sweetheart that is harder to solve for

placid gull
#

oh wait, I haven't officially rolled out the new update that we played with the other night; have you seen new denethor?

frozen nimbus
#

dont think so

placid gull
#

it's more comparable to Drunk than Sweetheart

frozen nimbus
#

why does it say once per minion

#

in a 15 player game that is super harsh

#

3 times of false info

#

to different players

#

compared to a puzzlemaster who only makes 1 player drunk no matter the playcount

#

reccomend it being once per game personally

placid gull
#

Conceptually, at least, 1 drunk player in a 15 player game is going to yield more junk info than in a 7 player game.

Though that's not to say I think Once per Minion is 100% correct, it's very possible that (Once) is fair, or that (Twice) is fair, etc.

in playtesting, the game felt solvable when it triggered twice in a 2 minion game, but that might not continue to hold true in future (or in 15 player games, for example)

frozen nimbus
#

its a lot easier to solve for 1 player having gotten false info

#

as the more nights of info you have the easier it is

#

this being able to affect multiple people

#

as well as being more like a puzzlemaster

#

since it takes up an outsider slot and makes a tf get false info

placid gull
#

I would believe it if this turns out to be correct
I think I will at least give it 1 more session of playtests, but I will absolutely keep this in mind.

frozen nimbus
#

yeah definetly

jaunty wedge
#

the thing about new Denethor is that, besides Merry/Pippin, MoS & Sarumon, it's some of the only misinfo on the script
that's.. genuinely very low

#

without something like this on script, there's a lot of things that can only be explained by "that player must be evil" which-- while may not be as solvable-- is just more fun for everyone

frozen nimbus
#

that is a really good point

jaunty wedge
#

We don't want someone who's killed by Eowyn to be officially out of the game--

#

We want people to suggest that they might've been killed by the Witch King, or that the Denethor made the Eowyn succeed when they shouldn't of

#

with no Denethor, either 1 or the other is evil

#

and that's how debates turn into arguments

placid gull
#

Anyone who's available: I'm running another game! Lucky me!

https://botc.app/join/lotr

Blood on the Clocktower Online
Public Game Session 'lotr' (5 open seats)

Chat language: English
Edition: Homebrew (LotR: Ringbearer by Bim)
Phase: ⌛ in between games
Storyteller(s): Bim
11 Player(s):
⚪ Parker, ⚪ HanoPower, ⚪ Leonidas,
⚪ Seat 4, ⚪ Seat 5, ⚪ Seat 6,
⚪ Seat 7, ⚪ Seat 8, ⚪ Drazhar,
⚪ 1337_Rose, ⚪ Juno
You can join this session with a free account!

#

(the almanac is dropping shortly)

timid hearth
#

downloaded the app its just not detecting mic

placid gull
#

NEW ALMANAC BABYYYYYYY

https://www.bloodstar.xyz/p/Bim/LOTR-BOTC-5/almanac.html

The changes are enormous, so I'll be very brief if I can:

  • New Rule: Players don't have to pass the Ring anymore! Big change.
  • Almost every Townsfolk changed except: Gandalf, Frodo, Merry, Pippin. I think that's it.
  • Denethor has a major change, Gollum has a minor one.
  • Witch-King & Mouth of Sauron each have new abilities.
  • In general, things should be more balanced, wins should be less out-of-nowhere, and evil should have way more opportunity to bluff.
placid gull
#

============================
Playtest notes!

+1 Good, +2 Evil (regressing, shucks)

Game 1:

  • First Palantir death, slowed the game down a surprising amount. Not sure if Palantir dying is actually interesting. I built the game around the Outsider count, and 2 Outsiders died day 1, so that was possibly part of the slow pace.
  • I built this game with totally random characters and didn't garden at all, was an attempted stress-test.
  • The game has critical roles that die often (namely Boromir and Bilbo feel like they usually get lightning-rodded by the demon, happened in all 3 games)
  • I feel like town could use 1 or 2 more active update roles, as the game goes late and roles are all spent if Evil takes a big swing there's not much I can do as ST to give good any momentum.
  • Good won the game, despite the Palantir death. Took a big swing at the very end of the game.

Playtests 2 and 3 I had broadly the same notes, except Palantir didn't slow the pace. I still feel like Evil is getting somewhat lucky (game 2 was hard-earned evil win, but game 3 felt very lucky with Bilbo getting killed and Boromir becoming Wormtongue, both in the blind)

Sauron had conversations, players seemed happy with their roles, Denethor felt calculable, and even the travellers felt broadly fine (we had Bombadil in 2 and Radagast in 1 and 3)

Still making ST mistakes, but I think the cleaned up simplicity of the script has resulted in less (game 1 was mistake-free!)

Thanks to everyone who played, you all did wonderfully and were a pleasure to game with :)

nocturne anchor
#

As a 2 time oathbreaker going to share what was discussed after the 2nd game: changing them to have an ability to stay evil in death e.g. if they die by execution (which might have the thematic bonus of being treated as evil making them so)
and from the gollum game perhaps providing them with an ability to 'snatch' the ring, both for agency and as an additional 'safety' for the ring

placid gull
# nocturne anchor As a 2 time oathbreaker going to share what was discussed after the 2nd game: ch...

I kind of like that Oathbreaker suggestion, actually. I think it makes Oathbreaker more harsh, but that's honestly probably fine. They do stay hidden after death in that case, but they'd be the only Outsider that does so so it's probably fine.

As for Gollum, I think he begins to feel very Townsfolk-y in that case. It would be nice if getting the Ring happened a little more, but Frodo has the same problem ironically lol.

jaunty wedge
#

also gives evil an incentive to bluff Oathbreaker, which I like

placid gull
#

Agreed Cole

nocturne anchor
analog forge
#

I think Oathbreaker already has bluff room, at least to evil. Out Oathbreaker to Sauron and he has less incentive to kill you

#

I was thinking the next time I pull Sauron to invite people to claim Oathbreaker to me so I could consider not killing them

#

And then if too many people claim I give them annoying tasks to do to prove their loyalty or some other funny time waster

jaunty wedge
#

well, yeah
but if a Minion bluffs Oathbreaker to town, they are executed

placid gull
#

Although, would the change of them staying evil actually change much in that regard?

Like, I guess town might not execute you? But they probably will it'll just do them less good and even if they don't you can't sell any info and will get executed when outsiders are exposed or town runs out of good minion candidates

#

I think it results more in "this outsider is more harsh to town" than "this outsider is more bluffable"

jaunty wedge
#

true that, true that

lunar prairie
#

Carte's review time

placid gull
#

Eyo!

#

anticipation

lunar prairie
#

Well, new One Ring is fun, I will take it as a starting point

#

I like the new Witch King

#

Might need more roles with night deaths though, and I haven't yet looked at townsfolk so it might be fine but something for me to keep in mind

#

MoS is a worse poisoner, but at the same time gets a communication ability so balanced overall

#

Not sure about Gollum, just randomly losing your win condition does feel bad. I think I do prefer the other variant where Gollum has to pass the ring but then someone critiqued it? I forgot the critique though

#

New Denethor is very original with the hold succeeding when it shouldn't

#

Does give evils the space for bluffing

#

Bilbo is pretty good and you never know if your ability worked.

#

But the upside is that if you know who has the ring and you don't have it then you know they are good

#

Samwise is slightly boring maybe? Basically a foolmaker. I am not sure how I feel

#

Galadriel seems pretty fun. You really need to time it correctly

#

I don't know how Gimli plays without playtest

#

No idea really

#

Boromir is good, but might conflict with Bilbo too much.

#

Treebeard is probably good

#

You get confirmation

#

But you have to wait

#

And you can die if you pick an evil

#

Aragorn stopped having anything to do with outsiders which is good

#

But the bad part is a strong overlap wit Frodo

#

Probably even stronger than Bilbo and Gimli

#

Legolass is probably good

#

But need to see in action

#

I like the rewording of Pippin

#

Annatar is still insanely OP for evil, but otherwise, I am happy with everything else

placid gull
lunar prairie
#

They both just hold the ring

placid gull
#

Just that they both want to hide and get the Ring?

lunar prairie
#

Yeah

#

And hold it consecutively

placid gull
#

Yea, there is some overlap there, but I'm not really convinced it's that much or a problem. We'll see if Aragorn is constantly getting the Ring and Frodo isn't.

lunar prairie
#

Oh I think the concern is a little different

#

Basically

#

They both pretty much can't be in the same game without diminishing each other

#

If Frodo is winning

#

The Aragorn is sad

#

If Aragorn is learning stuff

#

Then Frodo is sad

#

And almost certainly, you'd very rarely get a game where they both have a non-minimal impact (confident even pre-playtest)

jaunty wedge
placid gull
#

I see the argument Carte, but realistically most games neither one is actually getting to do the thing

I don't really see a world where Frodo gets the Ring win and Aragorn's thought is "oh, well if that player wasn't Frodo I probably would've actually gotten to do my thing"

It feels more to me like a soldier/ravenkeeper overlap. Both want to bait demon kills; but it's not like if one baits the demon the other one is now upset because that's a kill that didn't get spent on them. How many games of TB do a soldier and ravenkeeper both trigger? The answer is nearly 0, because in most games neither actually triggers to begin with. Similar here.

analog forge
#

Frodo is an interesting bait townsfolk

#

Fun to bluff as, kind of like Ravenkeeper. Hard to know when it works, though. The alternate win condition is just a little bonus. Interestingly Frodo wants to stay hidden it is a challenge for him to get the ring to begin with. There's no "I will take it!" moment. (Not a flaw just an interesting dynamic)

#

Couple things I was wondering

placid gull
#

The number of Frodos trying to get wormtongued was one of my favorite occurrences

#

I wish we could give Frodo an "I will take it" moment :)

analog forge
#

Have you seen Samwise whiff and protect a evil yet? Is that a concern?

#

Now that I think of it if I get a Gandalf wish it will probably be to try to engineer a Frodo win

#

Putting that on my playtest bucket list

placid gull
# analog forge Have you seen Samwise whiff and protect a evil yet? Is that a concern?

It happened in the very most recent playtest, but evil was so far ahead that it never actually came up.

It's a small concern, but the idea is that Samwise would have a nice conversation to establish trust first.
The odd part is that Samwises seem to treat themselves more like Tea Ladies than Monks. I think we've seen 2 successful Samwise triggers, and neither was very great because the target was not informed beforehand and in one case they were the Ringbearer that got killed by Sauron right after they were execution-tested. I think, especially now that Ringbearers have the option to hold, a Samwise-enforced Ringbearer is a force for evil to reckon with as it's the ultimate safety net for good.

Samwise can be played a lot like the fool, saving a death from evil or confirming themselves, or in this case also protecting a Ringbearer. Also notable that a fool trigger is much stronger in a script with far less death than BMR, its home script.

placid gull
placid gull
#

Well, I've reached a point

#

Where the script is very refined
And things are good

#

Which means it's really hard to work on it

#

Because all tweaks are minor and require a lot of testing and balance and brainpower

#

So, until Steven Medway catches wind of the project and hops on board, updates are probably going to be pretty sparse from here forward.

I'll probably start working on my other homebrew project again, so there's that, I'll probably make a post in here when that thread shows up.

I'm going to try and hold a playtest every weekend pretty regularly, if not more than 1. Ideally I'd like to set a regular time so that people can prepare, so expect a schedule sometime also.

lunar prairie
lunar prairie
placid gull
placid gull
placid gull
#

Pretty likely to run a game tonight! 6pm EST is the plan.

Not familiar with server policy, does anyone know how we get one of those snazzy @mention roles for this particular script?

I'd like to be able to Ping to announce scheduled games (to those who opt-in) without pinging uhhh the whole server

frozen nimbus
placid gull
#

I see
I will start making screenshot record of the playtests post game, then. Thanks!

jaunty wedge
#

I actually have a screenshot of all the games I've played in if you'd like those

#

although, not all are of the fully up-to-date version

placid gull
#

Oh, those might expedite the process, awesome!

#

==========
Reiterating, hoping to play tonight at
6pm EST (11pm UTC)

Would love to see you there!

placid gull
#

We're live!
https://botc.app/join/lotr

Blood on the Clocktower Online
Public Game Session 'lotr' (12 open seats)

Chat language: English
Edition: Homebrew (LotR: Ringbearer by Bim)
Phase: ⌛ in between games
Storyteller(s): Bim
12 Player(s):
⚪ Seat 1, ⚪ Seat 2, ⚪ Seat 3,
⚪ Seat 4, ⚪ Seat 5, ⚪ Seat 6,
⚪ Seat 7, ⚪ Seat 8, ⚪ Seat 9,
⚪ Seat 10, ⚪ Seat 11, ⚪ Seat 12
You can join this session with a free account!

placid gull
#

Playtest 1: History was written, Frodo received the Ring. Made it to the "Night 2" reminder, had a safe execution, and got chosen by Sauron at the last possible moment. No Boromir or Samwise to the rescue. Overall, very balanced game, super impressed, even with an evil win.

The subsequent two playtests are a blur in my mind and I keep getting the details mixed up, so maybe players that were present can help shore up my memory in case I'm mistaken, but;

We had a 3 minion game (all but Wormtongue) for the first time, though I can't remember which team won. I remember a Mouth of Sauron getting killed out of a Legolas ping after missing a couple of poisons (I think the MoS has missed more poisons than they've hit, broadly) and I think that's the game where both Gandalf and Saruman got to make wishes. If memory serves, this was the game where a Boromir saved the Ringbearer and the Ring got guessed by evil anyways.

The other game resulted in a good win, which is nice! I do recall a Wormtongue and a Witch-King being the minions who ended up arguing pretty fervently against each other, and both getting killed for it. I also remember a Samwise Ringbearer laying extremely low the whole game, keeping the Ring until they found a trustworthy Aragorn to pass it back and forth between.
I think Witch-King became known as a minion pretty quickly when a player died and no-one claimed to gimli or eowyn pick them. The Witch-King was bluffing Gimli, but there wasn't a great chance to make the claim there even with a Denethor in play. All of their supposed pings were misses, so even Denethor was hard to sell. The player was new, so give them some leeway I think.

Overall, 2:1 evil to good ratio, which isn't the worst. We had more games, but they were low-player-count and not really representative of the script so I cut them from the sample data. Evil won all of those, though.

There was a great suggestion to put [+Frodo] on Samwise, which I really like & just might do.

analog forge
#

Aww I like that suggestion it's super cyuuute

placid gull
#

It's quite a significant buff to Samwise, honestly, but that's alright I think. I do like that it's bluffable by evil and the hard-confirmation of having added Frodo is at least plausibly deniable because Frodo likes to hide.

I do worry that Aragorn will feel like a less cool/strong Sam, but Aragorn has felt sort of mediocre anyways and might be up for a change

jaunty wedge
#

I also enjoy that the two abilities genuinely pair well together....

jaunty wedge
#

-# and Clocktower is a game about teamwork, so I do like the idea of having more "working together" characters like Merry & Pippin

placid gull
#

Agreed on that front

#

What space is there to do something with Aragorn..

topaz flame
#

I made the comment that the script needed another minion or two. One should probably be an orc related one so here's something I thought up.

Warband: All minions know 1 out of play character. [+1 minion. All minions are Warband.]

This is a good failsafe for smaller games and gives larger games a hint of a legion vibe

analog forge
#

They would each get a unique bluff?

#

I do wonder if this would have balance issues with Oathbreaker in play

topaz flame
#

Doesn't have to be unique.

#

It doesn't specify unique

jaunty wedge
#

lmk if we're playin tonight, btw

placid gull
#

You know, I hadn't planned on it but actually tonight might be uniquely good for me. Let me see what I can do.

jaunty wedge
#

mmkay, mmkay

placid gull
#

Good news: My schedule can accomodate a game tonight very easily

#

Bad news: There are like 3 open english language games right now

#

I've decided to boot a lobby anyways, if it works out it works out

https://botc.app/join/lotr

@jaunty wedge @hardy totem @analog forge

Blood on the Clocktower Online
Public Game Session 'lotr' (7 open seats)

Chat language: English
Edition: Homebrew (LotR: Ringbearer by Bim)
Phase: ⌛ in between games
Storyteller(s): Bim
8 Player(s):
⚪ Worthless Chloe, ⚪ Seat 2, ⚪ Seat 3,
⚪ Seat 4, ⚪ Seat 5, ⚪ Seat 6,
⚪ Seat 7, ⚪ Seat 8
You can join this session with a free account!

topaz flame
topaz flame
#

Orc Warband (My interpretation of a demon idea thrown out by Arkus_Runeflare): Each night* choose a player, they die. If you choose an Orc, you learn this. [No minions. half of players (rounded down maybe?) are Orc Warband]

jaunty wedge
#

"If 2 or more Orcs pick the same player: they die."

#

or "the 2nd time"

timid hearth
#

Orc
Each Night*, choose a player: they die. If you kill an Orc you learn this. You register as a minion too and do not learn the evil team [+1-3 Orcs or A majority of players are orcs]

placid gull
#

those games were wild, but as it is late my write-ups will come tomorrow. (I remembered to take notes, so things should be clearer)

Thanks all who were there!

jaunty wedge
nocturne anchor
#

oh before i forget the suggestion of some manner of Radagast offering multiple wishes to Sauron so it's risk reward

analog forge
#

Game 1: Gollum win!

lotr1.png
#

I started as Legolas with Mouth of Sauron poisoned pings. We executed the first of the Legloas pings, but I started to suspect my second ping was good when the Merry & Pippin pair suspected the "Mathematician zero" was false. I nominated Arkus but declined to put the final vote to execute him.

The next day I learned that one of my pings had the ring. I had TicTakTwo's Boromir claim, so I figured that made Arkus good. Then town executed me.

The next and final day, I was woken and told I was the Good Wormtongue which was absolutely confusing (Bim explained that the Saruman was hoping to create a 3rd, good minion that would have to be killed . I messaged Arkus in the night and described the previous day's info and how I concluded he was good. He replied with "Dude I'm the Mouth of Sauron, I poisoned Boromor, but I couldn't pass because of a wish. I'm probably cooked." To my mind this makes complete sense, as I am thinking that Arkus really is on the evil team and expecting me to turn, but wish shenanigans have somehow interfered.

I out this to town and it is too ridiculous to be believed and they nominate other people and end up executing Lemon. At this point I message Arkus to say "This day has been awesome" because I was really just enjoying the roller coaster.

Then Sauron decides to kill Arkus. Arkus declares "MY PRECIOUSSSSS!" as we reveal the most insane Gollum win I have ever seen.

#

Game 2 (No Pic)
All I remember is I pulled Aragorn, learned Gimli, and my very first chat was happy to hard claim and turned out to be Gimli, so that was fun. Sauron ended up sniping the ringbearer day 1, oh well.

#

Game 3: First ever Final 3, Good wins

Screenshot_2024-11-22_000946.png
#

I pulled Aragorn again, this time I learned Saruman, which was fun. Also very funny to be sat next to Lemon, who pulled (or was gardened into?) Saruman after begging for it. I was killed by Saruman day 1, but that was fine as Aragorn is (mostly) a YSK role.

I had a lot of fun gathering the info from Merry, Pippin, and Legolas, and corroborating it with my own. A lot of it centered around whether it was Denethored, and puzzling out which minions were in play, which was a worthwhile thing to puzzle out. The one Denethor misfire was Eowyn killing the good Pippin, which was cool to see happen. I think town had sussed out that that was likely what happened in the end.

The Saruman wish was for all good players to be told they have the ring, except for the actual ringbearer. A very enjoyable wish! Hearing town corroborate this a couple days later, when they all felt safe to out it, was a super cool revelation.

Gollum had the ring for I think 2 days, but was too outed to get the win, but ended up being a big help to good for worldbuilding.

Wormtongue was made very late. Town made the right call. The primary evidence in the final 50/50 was that Arkus had held the ring for several days without passing it to Sauron -- ring ownership history being a way to prove goodness was pretty interesting to see, but there was still the seed of doubt as I couldn't exactly piece together the days Arkus held the ring and when Saruman died to know if there was space for him to be turned into Wormtongue. Rose was "confirmed" as Galadriel when she learned that Gollum held the ring, but I think if she had been evil for a long time that might have been bluffable with the Palatir grim, not sure. Overall very cool dynamic for the final worldbuilding imo.

analog forge
#

Script Thoughts

  • We playtested 1 minute of silence to provide cover for the Mouth of Sauron. Speaking just as a good player in the circle, I was not a fan of this solution, it tended to really dampen the conversation in town, which was quite lively. In addition we had a bunch of new players and the night phase was a great time to discuss the mechanics and characters of the script. Ironically, thinking about this being run in person, it would be much easier for the evil team to continue to chat with each other while silently communicating, although the communication itself would be less precise (e.g. it would be hard to cook up Merry/Pippin info).
  • Merry and Pippin are really growing on me. I am always happy when both roles are claimed in town, their info is a really fun puzzle, not only does it provide some decently strong info, but we can also puzzle out if one or both are lying. I am consistently impressed with how useful the two statements end up being later on in the game.
  • Denethor is a great outsider, very scary to have in the bag, but solvable, and interestingly, a conspicuous misfire or false info can prove a Denethor is real.
  • Galadriel getting a storyteller opinion of ring safety similar to a General is really really cool. I would be excited to pull the token now. I'd say I like it even more than General because it relates specifically to an instant loss condition. I am even curious if the second part of the power is neccessary, but this will take some more playtesting I think.
  • Wishes continue to be very intriguing. I love how much agency it provides the players to contribute something absolutely unique to a game. We discussed Radaghast options to present Sauron with a binding good wish and an evil wish in the presence of an ST, and if Sauron agrees Radaghast is bound to one of those two wishes.
#
  • Mouth of Sauron + Wormtongue seems like a very tough combo at this point, since town will be down 2 townsfolk roles, will likely have Denethor in play, and can poison each night. I would be curious to see this minion combo stress-tested.
  • Curious to see how the script feels at 1 minion count and 3 minion count games, I think they've pretty much all been 2 minion games I've been in.
  • I have also warmed up to Sauron from my initial trepidation about players feeling isolated. Sauron seems to be a real crowd pleaser. I didn't get a chance to chat with Hano in the last game, but I had wanted to, just to say hi and hear about her experience as Sauron.
  • Frodo still feels a bit on the weak side, but it is one of those rules that is fun to dream about. I would also be interested in a sort of stress test where there is a Frodo in play and the ST tries to stack the books in Frodo's favor, see how it feels to have an artificially engineered Frodo win.
  • Overall the script is feeling very tight and cohesive. I agree that we're at the point where further adjustments will be relatively minor and will take a lot of playtesting to figure out, which is great! 🙂
nocturne anchor
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was Leo as Eowyn (?spelling)

lunar prairie
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@placid gull just throwing it out there, today I probably have time to playtest so if you have time, feel free to start a lobby and I can join in like 10 minutes

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But if not, then it's also fine

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I wasn't as active as I used to be because of my exams

placid gull
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Sadly I'm on my way to class right now

lunar prairie
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No worries, maybe some other day then

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I could still probably have enough time to play for 5 hours so if you finish before that

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You can ping me

placid gull
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I will if I can!

placid gull
# analog forge Script Thoughts - We playtested 1 minute of silence to provide cover for the Mo...
  • I agree the 1 minute of silence is a little ham-fisted and makes the night feel even longer than it already feels. Not my favorite solution. I think MoS is fine without it, but it's good to have it as an option if it gets meta'd often (especially in low player counts)
  • I'm really happy Merry and Pippin haven't been underpowered, I was especially worried with the Pippin Math 0 which usually feels quite weak. I tend to give some stock info (chef numbers, outsider count, etc.) and I think I'd like to get more creative in future.
  • I love Denethor, Cole is a genius. The hard part is remembering it's in play for interesting interactions (I really want to use it to misdirect Galadriel to a minion, for example, but I always forget when the chance occurs.)
  • I also think Galadriel might be a little overly strong with both update info and the mostly-hard-confirmation, but I worry that just the general part feels low-agency. We'll see.
  • We agree on wishes.
placid gull
# analog forge - Mouth of Sauron + Wormtongue seems like a very tough combo at this point, sinc...
  • We've definitely had games with both of these minions (had 1 last night), but I see on paper why they're rough. I think especially with MoS having a really frequent fail-rate with poison so far, it has been fine but it could get bad.
  • I've played both of these (albeit much less) and as far as I can tell 1 minion feels quite bad for both teams (Good has very little info and evil has exactly 1 chance, so games struggle to feel properly earned) and 3 minions feels pretty evil-sided, I think. Requires further testing, but I'd like to see this somehow remedied.
  • Sauron is quite the crowd pleaser, I agree.
  • I've avoided the engineering win because I'd like to see it happen legitimately first, but it's an interesting experiment. I struggle to think of an appropriate change to Frodo that still preserves the nature of the character...
  • Agreed! It feels nice and refined.

Thanks for your insights as always!

hard patioBOT
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Gave +1 Thanks to @analog forge (current: #1577 - 4)

analog forge
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Also I like how Palantir plays out. Knowing that evil knows most roles, but you still can't fully out to each other, creates excellent tension

jaunty wedge
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Palantir's addition was a genius move, I agree

lunar prairie
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So I love stuff like Oathbreaker, Golum and Palantir

placid gull
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:)

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I like the way the Palantir change pans out

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The very first time the palantir died, prior to the ringbearer misregistry, it actually helped town put their info together and win
But now they can't all out or risk the Ring being found

analog forge
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On paper I also really like the agency you get with a Gimli. I think I've only seen a successful Gimli chop once or twice (to confirm good), but I like that Gimli can hunt for minions, confirm good players, check a bluff out, or even self-kill

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I was trying to to the math on a late Palantir kill, is there a point where Sauron is super likely to deduce the Ringbearer from the misregistration?

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I suppose you can put the Ringbearer token onto a minion or Sauron himself

lunar prairie
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How did Wormtongue become good?

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Am I overlooking a new role?

jaunty wedge
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HA
Sarumon wish

lunar prairie
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Saruman wished for minion to become good?

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Also, I am just realizing, Nick has just provided some thoughts, so now I can respond to his thoughts

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Let me see where we disagree

lunar prairie
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
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They were on my uncertain list

placid gull
lunar prairie
placid gull
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
lunar prairie
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What about Treebeard btw? Did it work on the playtests

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Thinking about Golum, I am still quite a bit in favor of replacing the "you may lose the ring" to "each night you must pass the ring". It just feels much more fair. Also, it takes away quite a bit of agency. Not to mention that either you pass it to a good player (taking away the chance for evils to get ring that night) or you pass it to an evil player which becomes basically unsolvable

topaz flame
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Similar to MoS I saw in a custom script a character where the ST added all evil into a group chat, and evil was allowed to text each other (I think for a short period at night.)

placid gull
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But generally, I think the barrier there is bigger than just using the app

placid gull
lunar prairie
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By a lot

placid gull
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Which is one reason that it looks the way it does

lunar prairie
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I think if we want to stick with some version of Treebeard then it's probably this one

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But I am personally not that attached, and it feels kind of fillery

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But I am very happy with like 80+% of the script

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I think genuinely

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A lot of stuff works

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Demon works, outsiders work

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Minions sorta work (MoS meta issue and Witch Kind being really nerfed by red tape)

placid gull
# lunar prairie Thinking about Golum, I am still quite a bit in favor of replacing the "you may ...

Gollum is allowed to pass the Ring right now, so they have all the same agency as they would if they were forced to pass, plus the option of getting greedy and choosing to hold.

Right now, going to a Ringbearing Gollum at night looks like;
"Would you like to pass?"
If yes: "Okay, to whom?"
If no: "Okay you keep it." or "Okay, the Ring slips from your grasp..."

I actually found it much more fun and balanced for all sides multiple times last night to let Gollum keep the Ring for a night.

Plus, forcing the pass gives Gollum a butler-esque "must pass even if you're poisoned" which sounds unlikely, but we did see MoS poison a Ringbearing Gollum once last night, so it's not like it never happens.

lunar prairie
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How I wish I could've had a playtest in

placid gull
lunar prairie
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It doesn't really exist

placid gull
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Gollum chose to pass several times last night, because they aren't just playing for the Gollum win, they're also playing for the good win because they win either way

lunar prairie
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Wow

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I mean

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I don't know, if people aren't going for what is almost always better

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Then I don't know what to say

placid gull
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I don't think it is almost always better

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I think that's faulty reasoning

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Because if you're gollum

lunar prairie
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Yeah?

placid gull
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And you say "hold" you can assume the ST will usually make you drop it
You can be greedy and try to hold anyways, or you can pass the Ring and keep forming confirmation chains for your team (which is what makes the Ring so strong to begin with)

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I think Gollum wins are hard enough to achieve that if I'm Gollum I'm regularly opting to just confirm myself and another player than to play for the unlikely politician flip

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I think many players will choose to hold in situations that aren't optimal because it's fun, but that's fine

lunar prairie
# placid gull And you say "hold" you can assume the ST will *usually* make you drop it You can...

You also kind of eliminate most of the chance of passing it to evil accidentally, because ST generally wouldn't pass it to evil, because of making it basically unsolvable. And you can create confirmation chains with my proposed version as well.

But even if you disagree with what I wrote above (for example, maybe you are about to say that you would absolutely pass it to evil), I think the interaction of ST deciding where the ring goes that much (in combination with other roles like Gimli and with ST choosing starting Ringbearer) is quite too much ST intervention for my liking. I am always on the side of small government (jk, on the side of ST doing less and players doing more). I think just the potential interaction of ST making that choice is a net negative

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I think having a button of "let ST do random" is not good for health of the script. There are also all sorts of meta concerns about it

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Or something close to random, because it won't actually be random

placid gull
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I don't think it can be called ST intervention when it was the player's choice to trigger it

It's more player choice than Ojo, which I hardly think we'd describe as a low-agency role

lunar prairie
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Well, Ojo has lower agency than every demon on all of base scripts. That's pretty low if you ask me

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I guess

placid gull
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Shabbaloth?

lunar prairie
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You could argue Zombuul has less

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Nah, but with Shab, you plan for resurrection and with Ojo it's mostly accidental especially towards the start. With Shab you can plan for every scenario when this or that player gets ressurected. For Ojo, you can't play, cause literally anyone can die (even minions, from what I've seen)

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I've actually seen Ojo self kill with Scarlet Woman

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That's how bad it gets

placid gull
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If STs are regularly Ojo killing minions I'm not interested in those STs and refuse to account for them

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But I think it's clear we've got different views on agency regardless

lunar prairie
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But it's fine, it's your script

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I am generally in favor of ST making less choices in general, but I see that it's not a universal position

placid gull
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Yea I'm firmly in the camp that the point of the ST is to make choices lol

lunar prairie
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Yup, then it's just way too different to come to an agreement

placid gull
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Ben Burns once said that's the biggest difference between BotC and Werewolf; you're not just a referee, you're the one telling the Story.

lunar prairie
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Well, IMO, you are already telling a story just by doing a set-up, choosing who bears the ring, choosing who gets the ring after Gimli, choosing whether and how to let 3 characters use their role (Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast), choosing what info to give to Merry and Pippin.

placid gull
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(I don't honestly expect to ever see Gimli trigger a pass, but that's a small thing)

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I agree this is a high ST agency script

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That's part of the design

lunar prairie
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That's already significantly more control than say TB, maybe on par with BMR (but note that a lot of player's gripe with BMR is that it's too ST dependent) (this is just my experience, but the most commonly complained about good roles on BMR are pacifist and gossip)

placid gull
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But anyways, no players have complained that they felt the choices weren't in their hands, I'll start worrying when I hear that criticism arise in games.

placid gull
lunar prairie
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But like, this is one of those issues, which I just don't see resolved, because I am really firmly in stripping away ST choices camp (before BMR games, I sometimes copy paste a sheet of hard meta for pacifist and gossip, so I strip even my own choices)

placid gull
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I think you underestimate player's abilities to feel quantum decisions in grim reveals

Though I think we're talking in circles because we disagree fundamentally

I think high player and high ST agency is the thing I like in this game, and I don't at all think they're incompatible.

lunar prairie
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It always depends on how you intuitively feel for the player agency-ST agency balance

placid gull
analog forge
# placid gull Gollum is allowed to pass the Ring right now, so they have all the same agency a...

We did work out that the MoS poison happens after The One Ring pass, and ends at dusk, so Gollum will not be poisoned when prompted to pass even if MoS continually picks them each night.

If your intention is that Gollum can be poisoned so that they can't lose the ring but also lose their solo-win condition and are thus vulnerable to Sauron, I'd suggest adding Gollum to the night order after MoS, and that's when losing the ring would happen.

placid gull
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No butler issue, at least

lunar prairie
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You can potentially get a lot of ST choice and a lot of player choice, but then you are risking the solvability of the script, where a lot of stuff happens. Then you will be sacrificing that instead. Cause you can't just like, increase everything indefinitely, at some point you will start chipping away from some other good stuff

topaz flame
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Btw Bim, I just made a thread for my Ragnarok script if you haven't seen the newest version.

placid gull
placid gull
lunar prairie
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Yeah, I felt like it would boil down to it

placid gull
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Yep

lunar prairie
placid gull
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More the former than the latter, but mostly all of it

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I mean obviously there's not infinite of anything but

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Games don't need to be fully solvable, just plausable and parsable, players and STs can both have a lot of agency without sacrificing the other, etc.

lunar prairie
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If it's former, then it's fine. I'll just hope that more people intuitively agree with you then me.

lunar prairie
# placid gull Games don't need to be fully solvable, just plausable and parsable, players and ...

Oh, I definitely agree. What I mean by sacrificing solvability is that you will be increasing the whole "I don't know what's going on here, so let's just go for this execution" kind of thing. I agree that games shouldn't be hard solved, but I also think it's bad when players are really confused from the sheer amount and depth of stuff happening (and not in a begginer learning the script way).

analog forge
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Regarding Gollum losing the ring to an evil player -- Gollum is an outsider, and his power functioning doesn't always need to help the good team. I think passing to an evil player and causing an unsolvable loss is one of those things that needs to be mixed in every once in a while. But that thought it in the context of a normal Clocktower script, where a character is played enough to develop a meta. It's harder to do in a homebrew.

Such a move could be softened by doing it when there is a Boromir to trigger.

I find there's enough explosive sudden endings on this script that it wouldn't feel like a rug-pull moment, but it would be one that had sigificant ST agency. Gollum might not always consider that holding the ring too tightly might lead to an evil getting it.

lunar prairie
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But currently we don't have that concern, we would have it if we tried to increase both ST and player agency indefinitely

analog forge
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But it's a playtest -- try it sometime and see what the reaction is

placid gull
lunar prairie
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Well, now I know when generally speaking I am better off passing the ring, because another concern with ST choice is meta. Unless, you are going to specifically not do this to me, but then it's just punishing me

analog forge
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Well, a Gollum win is usually celebrated by town

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Curious to see what a Gollum loss feels like

lunar prairie
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Gollum loss?

analog forge
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Gollum losing the ring to a minion

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I think that's what we're still talking about?

lunar prairie
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Yeah, ofc I am just bad at English

analog forge
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ok ok

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I don't have a nickname for that scenario yet

lunar prairie
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Or, at least, they defend ST's choice if they believe it was a correct one, but they don't defend the concept of ST deciding who wins (or close to deciding)

analog forge
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Well, Gollum has agency to hold the ring, or pass the ring. It's a push your luck mechanism of sorts. You could maybe consider it adjacent to klutz in terms of sometimes risking a loss with your decision (klutz obviously is fully a choice up to the player). Again, slipping when there's a chance for the info that a minion now has the ringcomes out to town is more interesting than just losing the next night. But a playtest is more informative than theorizing on paper here

lunar prairie
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I do kind of get the feeling like that's not going to change though (we have different intuitions with Bim)

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I do have a question to you Nick

analog forge
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shoot

lunar prairie
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Why would you prefer that option, over the option where a player has full agency?

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I am curious

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Do you share Bim's intuitions, or some other reason?

analog forge
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My intuition is it would be more likely that it would feel bad, but there's other characters I fretted about how fun it would feel that turned out to be hits -- such as Sauron

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Given how unpopular Vizier can be

lunar prairie
analog forge
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So that's why I would advocate trying the extreme range of things and see how it feels. Gollum might just need a one word tweak or something

analog forge
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Mechanically a forced pass each night is fine, but the current wording feels very fun to me

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Uh, just to steer to Witch King a bit because it came up

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I didn't give any comments because it wasn't included in any games. I will say that WK's ability is not super obvious about how it could be strategically played.

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Trying to tap my forehead enough to think it through, it strikes me that there's a couple things you can try....

lunar prairie
# placid gull You really seem to insist on this issue, but it really hasn't felt that way in p...

Well, I was contemplating a proposed scenario of a 1 minion game and I asked myself, what minion I would prefer when playing as demon, and I think I would say Saruman = Wormtongue > MoS >> WK. The gap between Saruman/Wormtongue and MoS doesn't concern me as much as between Saruman/Wormtongue and WK. I can't imagine myself ever freely picking it in a 1 minion game if I had a choice. And that's unlike TB for instance, where I think all minions are roughly equally good as each other

analog forge
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  • WK can try to use a mechanical kill to settle into an Eowyn or Gimli bluff and be "confirmed" that way. (potentially also combined with the below)
  • WK can kill a Boromir prematurely and cause a fire drill for whoever
  • WK can kill a Palantir to give the evil team lots of info
  • WK can kill a Gandalf or Samwise to prevent a rez or protection
  • WK can kill a Treebeard to prevent ongoing info, Eowyn to potentially prevent a shot, Bilbo to prevent a save
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The self-confirming kills seem to be the strongest. A Denethor in play can even provide cover why an Eowyn or Gimli could get a kill on a non-minion, or on a supposed wrong guess. We had a Denethor'ed Eowyn kill Pippin last game, although no one built WK worlds, primarily because we had a lot of YSK info pointing at other minions.

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The "learn 2 in play characters that do not bear the ring" is not as immediately obvious what you can do with it besides decide whether to kill them or not

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Makes me think that WK will really want to blend in and get claims from people

lunar prairie
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So basically, all usefulness that you've just described comes from the assasin part of the ability, which (at least I hope) isn't supposed to be the main part. I have no issues with the killing at night part (I think it is necessary for the bluff space)

analog forge
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It's the easier part to think about

placid gull
lunar prairie
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Oh wait

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Wait

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I was straight up

analog forge
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The info part is like, I'm not sure what I would do about it. WK could potentially solve who holds the ring. A dead Palantir with WK could potentially be devastating later in the game

lunar prairie
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Misreading the ability

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Guys wait

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Wait

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I was reading it wrong completely

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It says characters not players

placid gull
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Yea