China Shop

[olive drift]

I guess your point is that the spy looking good is bad for the evil team as they don't look like the demon

[vapid escarp]

Yeah

[olive drift]

And so it's better to sometimes make the spy look evil

But that is something you can do

[olive drift]

To frame others

For example, in your tea lady example let's say

The Spy gets saved 1 day

And then on the 2nd tap, they die

[vapid escarp]

Right so that gets back to the question of why you'd use spy over widow

If you're not gonna use the spy half the time

[olive drift]

That is making the Tea Lady look evil and like a DA

Let me step back then

[vapid escarp]

That's prob a fine usage

[olive drift]

Well it's awfully similar to the Empath usage

[vapid escarp]

Yeah

[olive drift]

You are making them look evil at times to frame others

[olive drift]

Anyway, just to go back to this point

An issue right now is that droison is fairly loudly announced. Widow and Puzzlemaster both announce themselves if they poison anyone. And Vigor works but only in later games.

Spy is always preferable to a self poisoning widow. It is silent, so in all games, good need to consider Spy worlds messing up information.

[vapid escarp]

Yeah but spy is incapable of pointing info away from the demon right

[olive drift]

Spy interacts w quite a few Townsfolk and the Science part of the script just a bit less than widow, but in a quieter way meaning that all games need to be considered

[vapid escarp]

Except by trashing savant info I guess

[olive drift]

I won't have Savant+Spy

[vapid escarp]

Wait would amne come off if misreg came on

[olive drift]

No

[vapid escarp]

Interesting

[olive drift]

Why is that interesting

[vapid escarp]

That's not an interaction I've really thought about but it seems like it might be miserable? Or just get a good ST idk

You don't know your ability AND it's susceptible to just being wrong sometimes

[olive drift]

Maybe. I see what you're getting at. I think it can be OK. Unlike Savant where it is always screwed by Spy, Amnesiac has an in built ST way to not be screwed by spy

[vapid escarp]

Yeah it's probably a ST issue not a script issue

[olive drift]

I agree with the idea that Spy doesn't have many ways to point away from non Typhon demons except for bluffing well.

My vision is different. It adds doubt to most players bluffing and it's something always to consider

Widow+Puzzlemaster+Vigor doesn't feel like enough droison.

It requires evil to bluff pretty actively to make droison worlds work.

[vapid escarp]

Man I was gonna say boffin to fill the niche but it's generally even worse with science

[olive drift]

The issue I see is two of tehm announce themselves

No Boffin

I did consider it too

I don't think it's bad with Science

But Boffin Puzzlemaster is just a worse widow

[vapid escarp]

It's similar to spy except the tea lady can be the demon now

[olive drift]

tbf

If the Tea Lady was the Demon

That sucks for the demon

[vapid escarp]

Wdym

[olive drift]

They can't kill their neighbours

So they can't get to final 2

Oh yeah Boffin

They can kill the boffin

[vapid escarp]

Kill the Boffin once you're confirmed

Yeah

[olive drift]

yeah

Yeah no

[vapid escarp]

Unless you're vigor 🔥

[olive drift]

It also is just bad with lord of typhon

[vapid escarp]

Mhm

[olive drift]

Xaan is wacky with science because a lot of successful science rules out Xaan worlds

Which means it's not quiet

Spy is quiet and kinda does something different w Science

I get your argument. Spy can't push sus away from the Demon, Widow can.

But Widow can't pull sus away from the Demon if there isn't a Widow ping.

It's how loud the droison is

[vapid escarp]

Have you considered making it easier to bluff widow pings

(how to accomplish that is a different story but have you thought about it)

[olive drift]

No I haven't

I have thought about it though

[vapid escarp]

Same for pm

[olive drift]

Lord of Typhon Minions don't want to bluff Widow pings.

[vapid escarp]

Wild idea, stormcaught puzzlemaster

Burnt?

[olive drift]

I will get back to that. 1 mo

1. There are more Minions in LoT. There is more likely to be a Widow in play. This means it's more likely that someone got a ping.
2. Lord of Typhon evils don't want to talk to each other. Talking in a line can look obvious. This means it's difficult to coordinate a fake widow ping.
3. Lord of Typhon evils want to blend in. If 2 widow pings go out, many Typhon lines are ruled out and it may become obvious.

[vapid escarp]

Yeah fair enough

[olive drift]

Stormcaught Puzzlemaster is something.

Godfather and Spidow have a way of being able to bluff Puzzlemaster if necessary

But also... this is dancing around my main point which I haven't said yet

[olive drift]

If evil team only have a chance by consisestently bluffing Puzzlemaster, or bluffing Widow pings, perhaps that is a problem?

Like, am I happy to make a script where 'evil bluffing 1 of two characters is in play' is just the best strategy? That seems quite narrow

[vapid escarp]

Oh true

I wish Typhon Drunk wasn't Typhon Drunk

[olive drift]

Yes

That's my point

Typhon Drunk is... legitimately an option

It has it's own major issues

to get away from this, this leads me to characters which provide misinformation & confusion, while still being quiet

[rugged kiln]

Librarian...?

Makes typhon drunk less awful

[olive drift]

Poisoner (ew)
Boffin (less misinfo + bad interactions)
Xaan (Can be disproven by science)
Spy (A top contender for this reason)

Librarian is not bad

Like the script would have stuff like Grandmother, Librarian, Gambler, Fisherman & Balloonist to all potentially help

Grandmother and librarian do have a lot of overlap

If I do add Spy, I might also replace moonchild for Sweetheart

Moonchild is very pointing

Still, I think Librarian is like, a bandaid solution

[rugged kiln]

Spy + godfather is also cool interaction, actually

[olive drift]

It is

[rugged kiln]

Like the spy getting exe'd giving the gf a kill

[olive drift]

Like there is a world where I put Alchemist on

[rugged kiln]

Alch feels ehhh here

Idk

[olive drift]

And Spy, Godfather, Alchemist is just a trio which messes with each other

[rugged kiln]

This minion suite is not an alch minion suite at all

[olive drift]

Godfather is a good alch minion w Spy misreg adding uncertainty.
Spy is a good alch minion bc it removes the spy misreg worlds and can mess with Godfather.
Witch is a powerful alch minion.
Asassin is like the most classic good alch minion.

Maybe in practice, Drunk on China Shop is fine

In that case, like, swapping PM->Drunk is a tiny, simple change which doesn't require me to reorganise the entire script

[rugged kiln]

I also feel like typhon drunk isn't as bad as people think

[olive drift]

It does strike me as potentially a bad in theory idea which might not be so bad in practice

[vapid escarp]

im not convinced spy is enough to temper alch gf

like not at all

[olive drift]

maybe not

I hope you at least see my issue

[vapid escarp]

i think just normalize the grandmother seeing the drunk a disproportionate amount of the time and itll be fine

not egregiously high ofc

[vapid escarp]

i very much do see it

[olive drift]

it does make grandmother more bluffable in non grimseer games

[vapid escarp]

exactly

[olive drift]

But yes, I think that's at least my take on why this script is good sided

the droison announces itself, and evil is forced to play into that almost all the time

At least in the game I watched

[vapid escarp]

drunk + gambler..........

[olive drift]

Fine

[vapid escarp]

could be worse

[olive drift]

Gambler is wacko on this script

Or at least can be

[vapid escarp]

does gambler not body typhon

[olive drift]

it does well

Gambler was added in an era of good not having any leads

[vapid escarp]

(acro isnt justified right)

[olive drift]

NO

Sorry

Accidental all caps

[vapid escarp]

ur good lol

[olive drift]

Gambler stole Acrobat's place on this script

[rugged kiln]

Drunk makes gambler more defendable as well imo

[olive drift]

And Acrobat can't get back on

[vapid escarp]

i should look at old china shop again

[olive drift]

The first game I had w Acro on

Had it choose most good players like a maniac

And confirm most of them as being sober

Droison is static

[vapid escarp]

ok well it's still quite recognizable

[olive drift]

Yeah it is pretty recognisable lol

I think that's another thing w me

The script really hasn't changed much

I'm only human. I want to see if any radical changes might leave it in a better place

[vapid escarp]

i thought you were a crocodile

[olive drift]

I claim to be human to blend in with you

[vapid escarp]

yeah i mean thats totally a valid design process

i just see spy paci and an alarm goes off in my brain

[vapid escarp]

clocktower reference

[olive drift]

My worry is that we might reach a local plateau w this script

[vapid escarp]

oh you grew your pronoun back nice

[olive drift]

yup

The evil team hasn't changed in like, 9 versions

[vapid escarp]

because it's already exactly where it needs to be 😇

[olive drift]

It's a good evil team, but if Drunk doesn't solve the issues, then adding more ways for misinformation to be silent is where I'm looking

And it's at Widow->Spy

[vapid escarp]

poisoner is so cool i wish it wasnt utterly horrible

[olive drift]

My other thoughts as I've said is Spy Sweetheart

[vapid escarp]

i mean SH solves nothing right

[olive drift]

sweetheart doesn't solve knight

Which is my main issue

But SH does look like a good replacement for Moonchild

[vapid escarp]

PM knight is weird bc youre better off just spending the guess elsewhere

[olive drift]

Bc Moonchild... I think that thing is brutal against Typhon

[olive drift]

Not really

If you guess the Knight, you will learn 1 player that is definitely not the demon

[vapid escarp]

oh the other knight ping?

[olive drift]

Yup

[vapid escarp]

that makes sense actually

(next time im evil i guess ill bluff knight confirming my demon and bait the puzzleguess for this exact reason)

[olive drift]

yippeeeee

so happy that vati is asleep

he'd have a heart attack if we mentioned drunk on china shop

[vapid escarp]

its ok i try to give him at least 1 heart attack a day

[olive drift]

As would you if I ran Spy on it

tbf

I think w Drunk it's just the vagueness

It combos well with Godfather and Yagga, I can't doubt that

[vapid escarp]

yeah D:<

[olive drift]

But Typhon, Balloonist, Vigor

[vapid escarp]

balloonist is fine imo, it solves the problem it creates

[olive drift]

Like... unlike on TB where the Drunk has a very nice pattern of Outsiders to look at

2 v 4

Or 1 v 2 v 3

[vapid escarp]

wait what are these numbers exactly

[olive drift]

here... solving Outsider count gives players huge headaches

[vapid escarp]

oh

yeah

[olive drift]

1 open claim v 2 v 3 open claims

WHast do they all mean

[vapid escarp]

look the outsider count was already not gonna be solved here

[olive drift]

Like are we solving the Vigor Godfather -1 + 1 world but also there is a balloonist with +0 +1

Yeah

That is true, somewhat

it has been

[vapid escarp]

also typhon

(it's [-3 Outsiders])

[olive drift]

But... now every world can just be 'oh it could be typhon and you have arbritrary info because you're drunk'

deducing someone is drunk doesn't mean anything in Typhon worlds

in TB doing this tricky task solves outsider count

Here it's... nothing

[vapid escarp]

here the PM learns who the demon is

which is going in circles

[olive drift]

It's not really

I do think that if I dedicate this to being a drunk script, good need ways to figure it out

TB has Librarian+Undertaker+Ravenkeeper. Washerwoman (kinda) helps. But it also has the consistent OM of Baron

[vapid escarp]

RK also helps a bunch

[olive drift]

Here is Grandmother, Balloonist, Gambler, Fisherman, Savant, Pacifist (kinda).

But the Outsider mod is erratic and solving it isn't as rewarding

[vapid escarp]

id throw a "kinda" on gambler and fish as well tbh

[white meadow]

Virgin also helps (a bit)

[olive drift]

In short,idk if there's enougg

[white meadow]

Acro lol

[olive drift]

So PM->Drunk is 1 idea to help with 'silent N1 misinfo.
And some variations including Spy is the second idea

in short

I do worry that Drunk might not work for it.

Drunk is a simple change but also it's Drunk LoT

Both help keep balloonist in check funnily enough

[olive drift]

Or this...

Return of acrobat to help Drunk

Oh

I more meant this

Mayb ethe lack of savant hurts more than helps

[quick pier]

drunk + balloonist 😔

[vapid escarp]

Actually just not that bad

[lucid vault]

id argue drunk balloonist is key

it stops balloonist from being EN* seamstress

[south hollow]

It does turn it into an EN*, fuck you

[feral stream]

That just sounds like a good time really

[olive drift]

Spy Balloonist/Drunk Balloonist both solve the Balloonist issue

[south hollow]

Spy Balloonist?

What does that do

Show 2 minions in a row?

[olive drift]

The Balloonist can learn 2/3 Minions in a row

It messes w the info in a reasonable way imo

[still fern]

Balloonist kind of needs Drunk to function it's just that this introduces drunk/arbitrary outsider count which isn't an interaction for every script, however China Shop outsider count is already arbitrary so it's fine

(autumn why did you think I'd get mad at you for wanting drunk lol)

[olive drift]

Because you were Puzzlemaster's n.1 supporter

You wanted Drunk off the script in the first place

[still fern]

Still am but the info landscape is tricky rn

And drunk is the least damaging change

[olive drift]

Yeah

I think there is a Spy version out there

Spy deals w stuff in an elegant way

[south hollow]

Balloonist with Drunk just feels really week

[olive drift]

It helps find the Drunk

[south hollow]

I think I just kinda hate Balloonist

[olive drift]

Well there isn't much better

I could swap balloon for savant

[south hollow]

The old one was fun albeit somewhat OP and the new one just feels really boring

[still fern]

Newloonist needs very hidden outsiders (either Drunk or "Leviathan with outsiders that are silent in Levi") to avoid feeling really bad either for itself or for evil

[olive drift]

I mean acrobat

[olive drift]

Yee

[still fern]

Politician can also work

But not on CS

[olive drift]

Yee

[still fern]

Poli can do a lot for a script that Drunk can but it's also poli

[olive drift]

I think drunk acro china shop is the best aay to preserve this evil team

I do think widow to Spy makes a whole lot of sense though

[vapid escarp]

typhon loss

widow poisoned d1 & d2

it was fun!! no notes really

bag was almost completely random

minion tokens were knight plague doctor tea lady, tho chad claimed moonchild instead

[sand mulch]

whats that amne ability?

[vapid escarp]

Each night*, choose 2 neighboring players (not yourself): they can't die tonight.

Chose the witch & Typhon then got assassin stabbed

[olive drift]

Fun

So balanced?

[vapid escarp]

Game felt pretty balanced yeah

Evil didn't have a real chance on f3 but only on f3

[olive drift]

Yee

A shame

[median mauve]

is it because they figure out it's lot?

[vapid escarp]

they were building lot vigor

but on the same player so it didnt matter

[atomic pebble]

💀😭

[still fern]

Vigor win (flowchart)

Pixlate killed both minions and was DA protected in f3 with a poisoned mayor

[lucid vault]

Knight still not beating the Investigator allegations

[still fern]

nah it's fine one of the pings died at night

[olive drift]

pfff

[wheat karma]

makes droisoned knight worse

[olive drift]

@turbid anchor there are 2 LoT losses and 1 Yagg win in these videos (you need to scroll down for the yagg video)

Could you record these. They're all 2.4

[olive drift]

And a Vigor win

[olive drift]

2.5 recorded Winrates

Fool 100% 1/1
Grandmother 100% 1/1
Amnesiac 100% 1/1
General 100% 1/1
Mayor 100% 1/1
Savant 50% 1/2
Pacifist 50% 1/2
Knight 0% 0/1
Fisherman 0% 0/1
Gambler 0% 0/1
Balloonist 0% 0/1
Town Crier NA 0/0
Tea Lady NA 0/0

Tinker 100% 1/1
Plague Doctor 0% 0/1
Puzzlemaster NA 0/0
Moonchild NA 0/0

Devil's Advocate 100% 1/1
Witch 0% 0/1
Widow 0% 0/1
Assassin 0% 0/1
Godfather NA 0/0

Vigormortis 100% 1/1
Lord of Typhon 0% 0/1
Yaggababble NA 0/0

What a way to start off 2.5 with a Typhon loss 😭

[wheat karma]

Fool not beating the allegations

[olive drift]

Fool by far tge strongest soldier

[olive drift]

2.5 Vigor win in longtext

[lucid vault]

flowchart win

[olive drift]

Truly a flowchart win of all time

Was an unfortunate game tho bc I did leverage a slight ST mistake running pacifist which turned into a win

[olive drift]

Is undertaker anything?

[vapid escarp]

Typhon?

[olive drift]

Spy helps a bit

[white meadow]

I’d prefer dreamer tbh. Idk I just think undertaker da/exe survival is a little feels bad tbh

[olive drift]

Dreamer is OK.
My issue w Dreamer is dreaming Yaggababble

[white meadow]

None of the demons have mobility

So why are you singling out YAG’s there

[olive drift]

I more mean that if you dream someone as yaggababble you could ask them to speak less

Or you have someone hyperfocused on them saying stuff

Which kinda feelsbad

[white meadow]

Just show Amnes as yaggas and give them public talking abilities

[olive drift]

That's just smoothing over what I think is a bigger problen

[white meadow]

Wait is dreamer/balloonist too synergistic?

[white meadow]

Fair

[olive drift]

I don't think so

Dreamer learns 2 characters

[olive drift]

Some issues w this version I need to consider.

Knight again. The only way Knight can be wrong is them being 'the Drunk'. Combined w Undertaker, Knights might be very willing to get themselves executed. It's very risky to make the Knight the Drunk because if you give the Drunk knight the Demon in their pings then you just lose if they get undertaker seen.

Spy can help, but idt if it's enough

[olive drift]

I'm trying to decide which version I like more. I do think I'm adding Drunk, but I want the good team to be slightly better at finding the Drunk. I feel Savant might not fit the script as well as I hoped, even if it is solid.

Either I keep the evil team as is and add Acrobat. My worry is that Widow+Drunk Typhon games might be a bit much.

Or I could try and go for Spy so evil still has something that adds unique misinformation, but more ST controlled. I don't think there is enough droison to justify acrobat, so I was thinking Undertaker. My main issue is that Undertaker+Drunk+Knight feels v strong, as confirming a Drunk Knight might be game solving on its own.

[shy spoke]

Idt UT works with LoT

[olive drift]

I think Spy might make it OK

Seeing a good character doesn't instantly rule out Typhon lines

Ideally with Drunk I want a Townsfolk that-

Can find Drunk/Droison.
Doesn't instantly solve China Shop

[sand mulch]

librarian?

[olive drift]

Librarian overlaps with Grandmother

It's definitely something to consider

[wheat karma]

Recluse just to be sure

No townsider to compensate UT

[olive drift]

idt recluse fits on this script

[olive drift]

I'll try and run the Undertaker version of China Shop tomorrow in scheduled

[olive drift]

Evil win

[still fern]

flowchart 🔥

[olive drift]

sadly people felt this wasn't solvable

Undertaker isn't great

They considered Spy registering as an Outsider to Godfather as a 'yes but don't'

People called the world so fringe it's impossible.

Hm

More of an issue of me not running social conflicts well

Not 100% sold on this

[burnt field]

I think this is just a case of people not knowing how Godfather and Spy interact

[burnt field]

The fringeness thing was more to do with how many non-vigor worlds there were

[olive drift]

ye

This is part of what I want to aim for though

This is a rare vigor game which had enough kills to pass for a Yagg game

[burnt field]

I will say that tea lady and grandmother mostly ruled out typhon fairly quickly. At least in the worlds i was building

[olive drift]

The worlds had you in a Typhon line

[burnt field]

Surprisingly, mine didn’t

[olive drift]

I think my bigger issue with how this game went was undertaker in practice

[olive drift]

how bizarre

I think Undertaker is deadly strong

But also very meh with execution survival

The Widow version of the script still has Drunk who can combo nicely with Godfather, but no Spy. It dabbles with the neat interactions

And Acrobat is a better Townsfolk than Undertaker on a Science script

I do think Spy is a deadly Minion as the last game showed, and I think it's very cool on China Shop

but maybe this more conservative version is better

[orchid canyon]

tbh registering the spy as an outsider to the godfather is based

[feral stream]

Godfather -1 removing the Spy during setup:

[olive drift]

I think I just didn't quite manage the players as well as I thought

So it lead to an unfun game. And while I do think Spy does add something special to China Shop, I don't know about Undertaker

Drunk does a lot of what Spy does already

It adds an extra reason for 2 night deaths which hides Yaggababble

[olive drift]

But ye, the Spy caused chaos. Deeno:
Had the Tea Lady save him D1
Was part of the poisoned fisherman advice D2 which was 'You should execute Deeno again'
Didn't get saved by the Tea Lady D2.
Caused a Godfather kill N3.
The Undertaker was drunk, but also could have registered as 'The Drunk' to the Undertaker N3

[olive drift]

I'll be running a Widow version of 2.6 tomorrow

[orchid canyon]

V2.4 in Livevoice

good won in f3

[olive drift]

yea it sounds like I need to update the script page to 2.5

oh

huh

it is updated to 2.5

Everyone is playing 2.4

wild

[olive drift]

How did it feel as the Yaggababble

[olive drift]

Ok lemme take a look at these winrates

[rain parcel]

Pacifist is a Townsfolk?!?!?!

/j

[lilac raven]

No, Moonchild is

[rain parcel]

wasn't that common knowledge

as seen by CC

[olive drift]

2.4 Recorded Winrates:
Townsfolk:
Amnesiac 69% 11/16
Balloonist 67% 14/21
Pacifist 67% 12/18
Alsaahir 65% 13/20
Fool 64% 7/11
Tea Lady 62% 8/13
Gambler 60% 9/15
Mayor 59% 10/17
Knight 50% 11/22
General 47% 9/19
Savant 47% 8/17
Town Crier 44% 8/18
Grandmother 37% 7/19

Outsiders:
Moonchild 75% 6/8
Tinker 66% 4/6
Plague Doctor 50% 6/12
Puzzlemaster 36% 4/11

Minions:
Godfather 50% 6/12
Widow 50% 9/18
Assassin 42% 5/12
Devils Advocate 42% 11/26
Witch 27% 3/11

Demons:
Lord of Typhon 38% 5/13
Vigormortis 50% 6/12
Yaggababble 40% 4/10

43% v 57%.

I think I can do better than 2.4

[rain parcel]

that's a rough winrate spread

[olive drift]

for what, the Demons?

Or in general

I think Drunk will help a bit, for misinformation that doesn't instantly announce itself

[rain parcel]

evil v good

[olive drift]

I did suspect the script was good sided, and just changing Alsaahir for fisherman isn't enough bc of other issues

I calmed down when winrates appeared to get more even, but they have slipped again

I think the script is very fun and people enjoy it, even if it isn't very balanced

But introducing drunk can help a good deal. It will help Godfather get kills and evil to kill slightly quicker, which means the Demons can mix into each other.

[olive drift]

In all, yes I see that it's good sided, but I am confident there is a great version of this script where it is more in balance

[orchid canyon]

oh i mean i was playing for memes

like for me yag isnt that serious so i just chill and say the phrase

[olive drift]

ah i see

[orchid canyon]

idk ask kenoboi he probably knows more

[olive drift]

@quick pier China Shop. How did you find that game

Also having a BMRhead like Keneboi rate China Shop highly is great prasie

[rugged kiln]

Honestly, my group haven't had as many 2+ minion games (where china shop is better) and we had a lot of evil wins on 2.4

That might be why your evil winrate has dropped again

[quick pier]

oh it was fire

we got clocked d3 tho and it was joever

[orchid canyon]

kenoboi my goat

[olive drift]

I do think smaller games have been surprisingly solid for this script

But ye I'm gonna be trying my very best to make 2.6 solve some issues I've been having

[sand mulch]

its the china shop everyone knows and loves 😉

[olive drift]

Oh well

People aren't showing

[olive drift]

Gathering players for 2.6 in scheduled

[olive drift]

Yagg loss!

[olive drift]

Typhon loss

[terse sleet]

Wow. Typhon lost on its home script…

It’s like when imp loses on TB. Makes me cry

[olive drift]

Vigor loss!

[lucid vault]

Wow. Vigor lost on its home script…

It’s like when imp loses on TB. Makes me cry

[vapid escarp]

Flowchart?

[olive drift]

D1 exe

Can't really flowchart when you die

Tough

[vapid escarp]

Flowchart loss 😔

[olive drift]

This version is eh

I'm praying the new release somehow gives me something

But it probably isn't

[quick pier]

tbf the last two games good won by luck and gut instincts

[olive drift]

Princess China Shop?

[rain parcel]

with the position yag is in?

it's alright

[vapid escarp]

why tho

[fringe socket]

Change goes brrrr

But also I agree. This isn’t a Princess script

[olive drift]

Tea Lady/Fool can cover

But... yea I'm really struggling with this

Princess does slow down the game a tad, and Princess only gives more time/soft proves itself

I can see it work better w Legion/Fearmonger

I think I'm getting happier w Spy, but Spy gives even less reason for Knight to go wrong

[olive drift]

I do think Spy is a great way to go, I just need to find Townsfolk to compliment that

Like a mixture of stuff usually gets rid of the vibe of Typhon in these games

[white meadow]

Noble is honestly interesting, and you can give a noble line to "disprove" typhon

[median mauve]

the spy:

[white meadow]

Exactly

[olive drift]

Noble barely works

It does in theory

In practice it's not v good, even with a spy

[olive drift]

Running now!

or at least gathering players

[olive drift]

gathering players in #extra-live-game-chat

[olive drift]

Now trying again in scheduled

[olive drift]

Ok

[olive drift]

Ok I think I might as well let the cat out of the bag.

China Shop is one of the scripts which could potentially be on the BOTC official website soon. My issue is that the most well known version of this script is... pretty good sided.

I want to make it as good as possible before it would be more widely shown

[vapid escarp]

YOOOOO

[rugged kiln]

Based based based

[vapid escarp]

Congrats :)

[rugged kiln]

Quite right too

[vapid escarp]

The carousel will include Drunk 2 trust 🙏

[olive drift]

Yeah

That's why I am trying to playtest so many different versions of 2.6

[white meadow]

congrats

[lucid vault]

yeah it's called hermit

[shy spoke]

🥳

That's so cool!

[olive drift]

Typhon loss

[quick pier]

what’s the loss from

[still fern]

longtext that just ended (#1385162041349636106)

[olive drift]

Yee

[quick pier]

no i mean like

how did they lose

looking at the grim it looks like a f5

[still fern]

very comprehensive (and unframeable for complex meta reasons) worldbuilding found it was usually kisa so town sent on him when the DA was elsewhere

it was final day because f3 would be DA autowin

[south hollow]

"Complex meta reasons"

[rugged kiln]

I feel like "your neighbours are living" is the typhon flowchart loss

Typhon win is "your neighbours die early"

[olive drift]

Sterling was incredibly active, and there was a different notable Typhon line from my perspective move up a bit

Which also had kisa in the middle

The Typhon was also bluffing Pacifist who didn't save anyone

The Drunk Town Crier was constantly getting nos on the entire Typhon line meaning that it was fairly easy to build a line including the Drunk

Parlour was claiming Fool & was executed and died on D3, also putting some questions on the Typhon line

[rugged kiln]

Hmm, yeah that's kinda awkward. Seems like the evil team didn't coordinate well enough?

[olive drift]

Basically stuff down there seemed off

I mean evil did well

We could have executed the DA bc they were another big demon candidate

At the end of the day though, Sterling built all the worlds and the ones which had kisa Demon of any sort were the most convincing

[rugged kiln]

Hmm fair

[olive drift]

I'm gonna try and find a Spy version of the script I like

[still fern]

I...think you underestimate how much pushback spy!cs has

(the discussions in this channel do not represent the full extent of the pushback)

[olive drift]

In that case we can talk about it?

[shy spoke]

I quite like the idea of spy here

[olive drift]

Maybe it is unwise to have a Spy version on the script page

As the one that people know & love have Widow

But I honestly think Spy is good enough to be tried out

Currently Widow limits worlds a lot in science.

And it makes evil play in a specific way to get an advantage. Drunk has helped with that

Even with the discussions we had here the main points against Spy are

1. It can't turn into the Demon so it's misreg doesn't matter much

(LoT does help with this. Its misreg still is important for stuff like Godfather)

2. Spy messes with Science too much.

(I think it interacts with science in a way different to BMR. But it still confirms stuff as non-Demon)

Spy's own ability harms evil bc a player confirming themselves can lead to the Demon

[lucid vault]

for me, it's mostly vibe and partly volume as well - China Shop to me is a script of semi-loud Minions that can get masked by the other Demons on script and Spy feels off-vibe there

it doesn't feel at home the same way Widow does with the script concept

it feels like a compromise more than a full commitment to the theme of the script

[olive drift]

It doesn't but I think the Spy-Godfather interaction ties the evil team tighter together

[lucid vault]

I think it's cool but Spy just feels off

i'm sorry if that's not the kind of feedback you want to hear but that's most of what I've got

it feels off the same way Boffin feels off on Trouble Brewing

[olive drift]

Nothing to be sorry about

[lucid vault]

like they do similar things but Widow feels more at home on this script

even if Widow is objectively less functional than Spy, I think it's better from a thematic and conceptual standpoint

[olive drift]

This script right now, as I see it

[lucid vault]

(and fwiw I do not think that widow is less functional — just positing that even if it was, I'd still probably prefer a Widow version)

[olive drift]

The main thing that makes it stand out are the Demons

Mainly LoT and Yaggababble

[still fern]

I think the most serious issues you have making the script work (keeping direct-info roles like Knight and Balloonist in check) are made worse by Spy rather than better

[olive drift]

How?

[still fern]

Drunk handles those issues better

[olive drift]

I understand the Knight argument, but the Knight is a fairly low WR townsfolk

Just because Drunk can handle those issues doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive to spy being on?

[still fern]

Misregistration either doesn't impact those roles at all or messes with them in unpredictable ST-dependent ways

[olive drift]

Balloonist Spy is fine

[still fern]

I think focusing on the feel of games will always be more productive here than on their outcome because cs is dealing with fundamentally unbalanced concepts and I do not believe will ever maintain balance for long periods

[olive drift]

Ok

I still think focusing on outcomes is relevant for making a balanced script

[still fern]

It's unpredictable and ST-dependent, which is a slightly different issue to it not being fine. I'll try formalize this thought later

[olive drift]

Right now all that I see is with my acrobat 2.6 good just have been winning and winning

[still fern]

yeah acro is massively OP in this info landscape

[olive drift]

I want evil to have a slightly easier time

[still fern]

I think, and multiple other people think this, that you're overworking on the script with the aim of balance and making its inherently precarious balance much more fragile in the process

[olive drift]

What's the solution there?

Accept this script is well liked but imperfect and move on?

[still fern]

usually people who have stronger opinions on this than me go "just run [x version]"

[olive drift]

No script is perfect

[still fern]

yeah at some point you have to do this

I've done this with cc

[olive drift]

Well clockwork cyborg with the stats actually looks balanced

Right now though what I'm getting is people playing the script and evil getting absolutely smoked

[surreal forge]

"Boffin CC" was deliberated for a while iirc

[olive drift]

And then them not enjoying it

[still fern]

I have a lot of thoughts on cc's balance but it's a script with a precarious concept

[olive drift]

Maybe that's their issue

But I want to try stuff out and see if it leads to something better

[lucid vault]

^^ I think you're psyching yourself out autumn

In chasing something better it sometimes feels like you're dropping what's good

[olive drift]

Well, I think its reasonable to want to see if a slightly different evil line up works.

As the script maker, I think I have a far more flexible idea of what the script is than outside observers

That's not necessarily a positive

[rugged kiln]

The most important metric is "are people enjoying this script and it's vibe" which is much much harder to quantify, making it easier to focus on the secondary (much more measurable) metric of balance.

[quick pier]

yeah like

i really liked all the games of this i’ve played

that being said i have won most games of this i’ve played

but not all!!!

i think evil team just needs to bluff widow a lot more

and also maybe this script does not work as well on one minion count which is fine

[lilac ridge]

i agree with barch in that I feel evil doesnt kill evil enough in typhon games

almost every game where evil is killed at night that Ive st'd has resulted in a typhon win

usually quite comprehensive ones too

[olive drift]

I agree. Due to the unpopularity of Spy, I am convinced. I have decided to add Wraith instead

[gleaming monolith]

I like spy :((((

[rugged kiln]

Hmm wraith could be cool!

I think you're a little thin on the ground misinfo wise then

[surreal forge]

I worry abt Wraith LoT

[rugged kiln]

Oh that is true

[olive drift]

Ye Wraith LoT is cool in some ways and deeply uncool in others

[olive drift]

We'll have our day

[quick pier]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-walter-white-falling-flying-kiss-heisenberg-gif-25238256

[olive drift]

In any case

[white meadow]

Yeah its on a similar level to Psycho/Vizier LoT in my opinion

[shy spoke]

I mean, a wraith could just choose not to out unlike the other characters

[olive drift]

Ye

[shy spoke]

Which they would be heavily incentivised to do in a LoT game

Also, you could use the optional madness rule they were talking about on stream

Also adds some death-mod

[rugged kiln]

i think while wraith is really fun it:

• has worse misinfo capabilities
• has worse grimpeaking capabilities
  both of which are somewhat important on china shop, I think

[quick pier]

ok but widow is good here

like actively good

[olive drift]

Yeah Wraith is never getting on

I was joking

In any case

[median mauve]

also spy's misreg is like super important for lot

[olive drift]

I think I need to finalise a version to send to zets

[olive drift]

Well Spy isn't on most versions of this script

I think something like this version is what I'll send

Spy is simply too untested right now for me to be comfortable using it

I think the ST complexity is likely a 4/5
Player complexity is 4/5

[vapid escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/autism-creature-vergil-judgement-cut-end-devil-may-cry-yippee-gif-16347918189446191665

[olive drift]

hi

[vapid escarp]

Is this 2.4

[olive drift]

It's not 2.4

[vapid escarp]

What's different

[olive drift]

Alsaahir->Fisherman

[vapid escarp]

OH DRUNK

[olive drift]

Puzzlemaster->Drunk

[still fern]

it's 2.55 sort of

[vapid escarp]

Yeah ok I'm happy with this

[olive drift]

It's like 2.5, but with 1 change of PM->Drunk

Do I think this is the best version of the script? Maybe?

But it is the one I'm most confident is pretty unproblematic

So I'll go for it

I think Player/ST difficulty is around the 3s/4s

I might poll it like Paradox

[sick gust]

Autumn (they/she)

Storytelling Difficulty

1⃣ 3
2⃣ 3.5
3⃣ 4
4⃣ 4.5
5⃣ 5

Autumn (they/she)

Player Difficulty

1⃣ 2.5
2⃣ 3
3⃣ 3.5
4⃣ 4
5⃣ 4.5
6⃣ 5

[sick gust]

Autumn (they/she)

Tagline

1⃣ Beware the bull
2⃣ Prepare for the charge
3⃣ Hold the line
4⃣ Smash, crash and burn.
5⃣ Can you survive the charge?
6⃣ It's pandemonium in there!
7⃣ Tea time terrors
8⃣ Was there an extra shadow in the dark?
9⃣ Mind the porcelain

[lucid vault]

9️⃣ goes insanely hard

maybe that's because it evokes Grimm Chorus's "keep your powder dry" tagline though

idk I still like it

[rugged kiln]

1️⃣ 5️⃣ and 9️⃣ are the best imo

[orchid canyon]

nah "Hold the line." has aura

[quick pier]

smh you needed “How do you stop a bull from charging”

[olive drift]

My faves are 1️⃣ and 3️⃣. I'll keep 9️⃣ in mind

[vapid escarp]

I love 3 and 9 equally but wouldn't be mad if 1 won

[lucid vault]

I don't think it's a vote

[vapid escarp]

Yeah but I didn't wanna think harder to find a more accurate word

[olive drift]

Ye

I could go for something longer

Like

"Hold the line and watch your step"

I do like "Hold the line". "Mind the Porcelain" is almost ironic because of how quickly people day

[quick pier]

Hold the line is just a hard one liner tho

[olive drift]

It is

I think it describes the script well

[rugged kiln]

Hold the line goes hard

To me it feels a bit vague

Like ik its on about typhon lines

But tbh all of these are good

[quick pier]

“vague and cool” are usually good qualities of a tagline tho so that’s why i like it

[olive drift]

damn 14 votes for 'mind the porcelain'

[white meadow]

It's iconic

[rugged kiln]

Autumn if particular ones call to you, go for it

Like if you were thinking about 2️⃣ 5️⃣ 6️⃣ or 8️⃣ then I'd maybe reconsider

If your favourite is even vaguely popular, go for it

This is your script!!

[olive drift]

ye

[olive drift]

Evil win! Evil triple claimed fool

[rugged kiln]

it was a very enjoyable game

[olive drift]

This is probably one of the strongest widow versions of the script

[olive drift]

By strongest I mean 'best'

[rugged kiln]

i think drunk fits well, despite typhon

just because its low misinfo anyway

[olive drift]

yeah

I think a script can have 1 or two more questionable interactions

[white meadow]

As a treat?

[olive drift]

Version 2.55

hic.... hic...
Puzzlemaster -> Drunk

Drunk to make things a bit more difficult to solve for good. Puzzlemaster is fun, but I don't want evil to always bluff widow/PM to create droison worlds!

[vapid escarp]

Want a pin?

[quick pier]

drunk balloonist literally 1984 shaking crying rn

😈

[fierce kestrel]

Peak change

[olive drift]

pin time!

[fierce kestrel]

First

[olive drift]

😎

[vapid escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/disintegrate-gif-22469816

[olive drift]

@orchid canyon Who won this?

[orchid canyon]

fiddled 😔

[olive drift]

dam 😔

Oh damn its 2.4 with alsaahir

what a based version

[orchid canyon]

its the version i have because drunk stinky (stinky!)

[olive drift]

But consider forcing evil to bluff Widow/PM each game equally bad!

[orchid canyon]

clockwork cyborg would like to have a word with you:

[olive drift]

Clockwork Cyborg doesn't have a Demon with all evil in a line

[orchid canyon]

true

it will if i draw demon

[olive drift]

Like, I've made peace with the meh LoT drunk interaction

Maybe there will be a better version in future

Maybe not

All I know is that this is a p good script. Maybe it can be better but maybe not

The only way for me to tell is by running lots of playtests, but my scheduled games fill only like 33% of the time

[orchid canyon]

fwiw people like the script it wins script polls fairly regularly

[tiny stone]

should the version on botcscripts be the Drunk version or is the Puzzlemaster version still the latest?

[vapid escarp]

I'm not autumn but I'd assume it should be drunk now

[rugged kiln]

Drunk typhon isn't too oppressive here because
a) it isn't incredibly awful anyway
b) hopefully your ST is good
c) this is not a high info script anyway, and solving for misinfo doesn't necessarily give you the evil team in the way it does in S&V, so having misinfo be solvable is not as critical

[lucid vault]

Now that the script is updated my irl game of 2.5 is just outdated 😔

[olive drift]

Vigor loss 😔

[lucid vault]

.

typhon win on 2.55

[sand mulch]

wow

[-2 Outsiders] and the ST didnt even add a drunk

[olive drift]

wow

[ionic apex]

ofc axo was the widow lol

[olive drift]

Ah yes

The legendary Balloonist -2

[lucid vault]

i saw the 0 outsider balloonist game and my hand was kinda forced

[olive drift]

what kinda worlds were built?

[lucid vault]

mostly Yaggababble/Widow and a couple Typhon lines

since both me and Tawny were claiming face-up Outsiders

we had the grandma pair die n2 and then gambler death n3, so 2/2 made people think yag

[quick pier]

vigor non-flowchart win

on final 5 night, the DA protected the demon, but at the last second switched to themselves. then the demon killed the grandchild so it went to f3 and the DA just started sobbing

Evil still won though

[olive drift]

What was the Amnesiac ability

[quick pier]

“ you start knowing an in play outsider. They are drunk”

It actually prevented the plague doctor from going off

oh and bluffs were tinker TL mayor

[quick pier]

evil win

they killed the widow f3

pacifist saved themselves twice in a row since evil was stomping

[orchid canyon]

puzzledrunk knight

[quick pier]

oh the knight was just the drunk

i just lost my is the drunk token

FUCK a player just pointed out i made an ST mistake

[orchid canyon]

you suck go home pack it up

[terse sleet]

Nahh you’re just show casing Deux Ex Fiasco

[quick pier]

so true…

[white meadow]

Ok so funny story, I was cooking up a script in the shower, and decided to finally try my hand at an athiest from the ground up script.

So Step 1: you want loud minions right? because that's fun in atheist...so obviously you want some minion mod... so PD + lil monsta it is,

But, loud minions: Is that Vigor's music I hear? and of course you want it to be bluffable when atheist is not in play, so its gotta be more deathmody or single target minions, so Assassin/GF/Tinker/Witch and so obviously gotta be Yagga

But like that's not loud enough for athiest shenanigans, so DA and protection roles obviously gotta be included

Ofc, now DA and LM has problems, so lets switch to the other minion mod, Typhon

And at this point, I started to realize it was just China Shop from first principles (Ofc with drunk or mario because Athiest).

I thought yall might appreciate this story

In other words, does athiest fit here? /j

[olive drift]

1 Minion China Shop is nice

[terse sleet]

Where can I also get a waterproof laptop to cook up scripts in the shower? k thanks!

[sick gust]

Gave +1 Thanks to @white meadow (current: #1807 - 5)

[lucid vault]

If you don't have a whiteboard in your shower and full encyclopedic knowledge of all BotC characters, what are you even doing with your life

[terse sleet]

...wait.. my shower is windowed.. 😐 .. I need to get window and water proof markers

[white meadow]

I just do it mentally??

[terse sleet]

I understood the joke. I was joking.

[olive drift]

Vigor loss!

[white meadow]

didnt follow the flow chart smh

[olive drift]

did mostly

N2 kill was me

from a mayor bounce

[orchid canyon]

lmao using the mayor to vigorkill the mayor

[olive drift]

Yeah

Vigor attacked Mayor

I died

And poisoned mayor

We were very near to winning

[lucid vault]

@olive drift what are your thoughts about drunk/mayor with LoT and Balloonist effectively being arbitrary outsider mod?

it might feel bad to lose going for a drunk (mayor) win when drunk solvability can be low

is the solution just to bagbuild good and not bad?

(also can you update the script database 👉 👈)

[olive drift]

I can update

Lemme think

[surreal forge]

don't do drunk mayor?

[south hollow]

yeah I think that's the unfortunate solution

[rugged kiln]

Not doing drunk mayor is probably the move

[olive drift]

Drunk is a new character on this script

I added it because Puzzlemaster+Widow are both loud droison. If they aren't in play, evil need to bluff them to imply droison.

[olive drift]

it's not ideal, but idk if I would rather drunk or puzzlemaster

drunk works well tho

[rugged kiln]

We had a game the other day, I don't know if a grim got saved, I'll ask the ST

[olive drift]

Grandmother, Balloonist, Savant, General, Gambler, Amnesiac, Fisherman and Pacifist can all really help in Drunk Mayor games

[rugged kiln]

Yeah, I was the drunk pacifist who was the grandchild

[ionic apex]

grandmother seeing drunk on the player who pulled mayor is fucked up and i’m here for it

[white meadow]

Grandmother being the drunk one is extra funny

Bc mayor bounces means they'll never solve between them

[ionic apex]

FIRE

[quick pier]

recommended travelers for this script?

[olive drift]

Hallo

Axolator did a post about that on another server

I agree with her mostly

Butcher, Beggar, Judge, Voudon seem good here

I'd say Barista, Bone Collector or Deviant are fine

I might be a bit cautious around judge

[quick pier]

evil win

evil stomped but good almost solved at the end

(general learned evil every night and then died to a witch curse while nomming the demon)

[sand mulch]

is that "the Drunk has an international role" as a savant statement

thats kinda cool

[quick pier]

LMAO

just noticed that

meant informational role

oh wait it does say that

yeah the savant info was "The Drunk thinks they are an information role / A TC would get a shug clockwise"

and then the savant got killed by the demon n2

[olive drift]

poor good

[quick pier]

tbf there was a lot of town infighting

The balloonist was bluffing fisherman so the fisherman bluffed pacifist and nominated the balloonist to try to get them killed

and then I don’t really understand why but the fool was convinced the town crier had to be evil and double claimed Towncrier

and then even after they were both dead they kept insisting the other one was evil and no one was really building-worlds and I kept giving the general evil and no one really listened

[cold merlin]

The idea was the "gambler"(assassin) gambled incorrectly the town crier and the demon hit the fool

[quick pier]

yeah fair but tbf there was only one death that night

although yeah you guys built the fool tanking an execution correctly

[quick pier]

good win f3

evil was on the back hand for most of the game since town quickly solved the exact evil characters in play

although i think the nail in the coffin was the demon claiming an outsider in a confirmed vig game when a pretty trusted player was grandma seen as the drunk

(the drunk saw the pacifist token btw)

[sand mulch]

was the “knight pings are the minions” meta’d

[quick pier]

no

the witch was outted evil but the assassin was hard trusted for the entire game

[olive drift]

i seeeee

[rugged kiln]

We had two games of china shop run today by @lilac ridge ! Typhon loss and vig win iirc

(Vig flowchart win)

[olive drift]

Yippeee

[olive drift]

So 3 good wins and 5 evil wins so far.

and no yaggababble games

[quick pier]

have there really been no recorded yagga games

i ran a yagga game of this a month or so back irl

I thought I recorded it

[olive drift]

Ah no I just thought you ran the previous version because of your missing drunk token

[quick pier]

oh yeah

[rugged kiln]

Yeah we had maybe like 3 or 4 games of the widow/drunk version ran in september as well

iirc we had a yagg evil win, a vig evil win?? and????

Both games were super close tho, especially the yagg ones

[olive drift]

It feels maybe a tad evil sided, but the games seem close

[rugged kiln]

I think my group's playstyle is also just naturally evilsided on china shop

None of us really out much before the last couple days of the game

And all of the demons on china shop 'rush' the end of the game in some way

Vig killed DA, typhon being typhon, yagg with the extra kills

[karmic cove]

Played and ran this once each today, I think it'll stick around in my group

[quick pier]

flowchart win (it had nothing to do with that, good sold incredibly hard in their own accord)

fun enough, the vigormortis thought poisoning skipped dead players so they almost lost to the mayor in final three

[fiery goblet]

Amne, something, witch, grandmother, mayor, something, something, Vig, DA, general?

Do you have a higher quality photo of the grim?

[quick pier]

oh sorry didn’t realize it was bad

[fiery goblet]

Ah, thank you.

[quick pier]

oh i took off a bunch of the dead tokens

[fiery goblet]

@quick pier thank you

[sick gust]

Gave +1 Thanks to @quick pier (current: #59 - 636)

[quick pier]

f3 was mayor DA and vig

[still fern]

average tl placement

[quick pier]

The fish info was literally “tell [tea lady player] to act on their ability” because good was playing so passively

[karmic cove]

(version 2.55 is not the one linked in the top post)

[olive drift]

Oh ty

[quick pier]

livevoice Typhon game

it actually made it to f3

f3 was assassin, knight and typhon and they went for a mayor win

evil managed to get 2kpn every night which was impressive

[olive drift]

wow

looks like a fun game

[feral stream]

China Shab

[olive drift]

yessss

Not too shabby

[mortal oar]

@olive drift hey I’m just curious why was innkeeper taken off again

I plan to play this this weekend with 11 players

[lucid vault]

Innkeeper was really strong against Vigor and Typhon, especially in smaller games (though killing minions help) and was a little awkward to ST with Yaggababble

[mortal oar]

Interesting

If innkeeper suspects its vigor game they pick dead people right

I assume

[lucid vault]

It's more that the Innkeeper protecting 2 players each night is tough for a Demon that only kills once each night

There was a text game a while back where the Innkeeper blocked every single kill the Vigormortis made

[mortal oar]

gotcha

[quick pier]

mayor win

my grim doesn’t have the drunk token so I use the sailor

[olive drift]

MAYOR WINN

Based

[tiny stone]

Just ran a game of this over on Niz's stream (allabouthebluff)
Evil came out with the win, after town spent most of the dead votes on the DA-protected Demon at 4-alive.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2636749867

[olive drift]

Epic!!

How did you find ig

[tiny stone]

Really smooth actually. Fish advice was quite strong but town was pushing against them a fair bit and the evil team was doing some great distraction work. The DA definitely carried the game mechanically-speaking.

[quick pier]

evil won but it was a close f3

ember was executed d1 but read so good that no one ever built irish LoT

f3 was the spent fool, the widow and the LoT

typhon line rose up

poisoned fish advice was "Ignore all worlds in which Lucas is the sober and healthy Tea Lady" after they tea lady tested Ember

[olive drift]

4 good wins 9 evil wins

[quick pier]

it was close tho, there was a weird lift off the witch which wasted enough time to give evil an advantage

[olive drift]

yeee

[olive drift]

30% good wr for now, but we'll see

i have hope it'll balance out

[fringe socket]

no starting outsiders Kenoboi you are blessed

[quick pier]

i mean its 10p typhon

[fringe socket]

yeah ubt unbased STs would see Typhon and go outsider brrrr

you though, based

[olive drift]

I still am not the biggest fan of the drunk Typhon interaction but what can you do.

Get better STs ig

[olive drift]

This is cool

[mortal oar]

this is where after typhon linne is created creating the drunk is up to the st?

at 15p if typhon technically you can only give two bluffs (+ the drunk)

[olive drift]

That's fine

[south hollow]

so long as you decide whether there's a drunk after tokens go out in Typhon it's fine imo

and then just don't add a Drunk when it tips it over the base outsider count

[unborn cedar]

close final 3 where town solved the general info saying demon in knight pings but evil won

sorry to add to the evil winrate

[karmic cove]

What does cumulative mean here?

[unborn cedar]

like it adds the numbers from alll previous picks to the new one

[karmic cove]

huh

[fringe socket]

If you learned a “1” on your 1st pick, it adds 1 to all future picks. So even if you pick a player who has an “Empath 0” on Night 2 you’d learn a 1

[olive drift]

ye

rn the script feels like

It's evil sided but most games "feel" like the game was close in the end

I'm not super worried about winrates mainly because we don't have that many games

[mortal oar]

My group played it 3w ago, good team won

I was planning to run it last week but not enough people showed up

[south hollow]

what's the winrate stats rn?

[olive drift]

Something like 75% evil WR

Which doesn't seem right or desirable

[quick pier]

yeah but some of those games are with my irl group and that doesnt count because sometimes they play like they're lobotomized

[south hollow]

how many games is that out of tho?

[olive drift]

8/12

[south hollow]

the chance of evil being that far up on a balanced script is 19%, so 39% chance of that high a swing either way

i.e. not significant

[olive drift]

Yee

[mortal oar]

me when my Ivy League grad friend rolls the imp 1st game, says he's the imp, and gets executed d2 (everyone thought he was being cringe d1)

[rain parcel]

Isn’t that 66%

[olive drift]

no no I got it wrong

you're right

10/14

[olive drift]

Still in the not significant range but it's a bit worrying

[quick pier]

what’s the p-value

[south hollow]

9% chance that evil win at least that many, so 18% chance that it's that unbalanced on either end

[quick pier]

and we’re using alpha = 0.05?

[south hollow]

that's what I'd use

[quick pier]

right

ok so yeah we’re well out of statistical significance

[olive drift]

Fairly out

Okay yeah we are out but still would be nice to keep an eye on

Then again, as a script which is about helping make Typhon feel good, I guess it's a success

[white meadow]

do you have typhon specific winrate?

[olive drift]

No but I can look for it

Hmm from what I can see it's actually 13 games overall

Also

For V2.55

100%

4/4

[white meadow]

im ngl itd be very funny if it was a 75% winrate and the 25 was all typhon

[olive drift]

Pfff

But yes I think it's just a wait and see type of thing...

If it continues, I'll likely go back and see what I can do to the good team on here

...

[white meadow]

replace knight with invest lol

[olive drift]

or it will be the dawn of the spy

[white meadow]

/j

[olive drift]

A lot of good wins on previous versions came from alsaahir

The main dilemma is knight+droison

I want droison that affects the knight

Xaan (actually sucks with science I've tried)
Drunk (meh with Typhon)
Puzzlemaster (great but then there is an issue where evil either need to claim PM or Widow pings to simulate droison)

If there was a perfect solution, it'd be on here

[white meadow]

its technically homebrew, but balanced poisoner?

[olive drift]

No homebrew and id make my own if I wanted it to be

But something of that sort can work

[wet path]

Words never before spoken in this order

[wet path]

This part is very real though, misinformation is annoying

[tropic tree]

Kinda strange how this script is all around really hardcore for the good team for some reason?

Its more akin to the flow of the script, it tends to run wildly fast i think, well that was the times i storytold it

[olive drift]

After watching this game... Wow

Yeah no evil deserved that win that was amazing

[tiny stone]

Yeah it was such a great game

giving that fish advice felt super off cause it was basically like "one of your neighbours is the Demon" on day 3, but it played out how I wanted which was good

Also I forgot to cover it in the grim reveal, but the first time willow survived was because of the DA, not even the Pacifist

[olive drift]

Yeah I kinda felt felt that just because Robe's protections were on point

It kinda makes me feel a bit less worried about the balance because it was a legitimately close game

[fiery goblet]

I think we're hitting something similar to TFNITB with fang gu getting slapped around. Every evil win has been close, I think God just rolled dice.

[tiny stone]

Ran 2 games of this yesterday. The first saw the Drunk Fisherman executed D1, the Yag didn’t say their phrase until night because they misread the ability, then they were executed D2 for messing up their Balloonist bluff (which was also a double claim with their Minion). They were claiming they were pointing at people and shown tokens, which was very confusing.

We tried again, and the game made it much further, but there was another good win after the Typhon killed their Assassin N2 before they had an opportunity to spend it, and the Witch and DA were the next two executions (both of whom never had an impact on the game mechanically, along with the Godfather never getting a kill). Town were mostly building Vig and Yag worlds, with the only feasible Typhon world (mostly due to the Knight pings which were well-hidden, and socials) existing around the real Typhon. They decided to clear that world at 7 alive and good won.

[tropic tree]

Make your group play bad moon rising more dawg

[olive drift]

These seem like China Shop specific issues

1 was not realising how Balloonist and Yagg worked

[fiery goblet]

Do we think this group was ready for this script?

[olive drift]

The 2nd was the Lord of Typhon presumably trying to go for "hey this can't be a Typhon game" by killing one of their Minions early

That feels like a leading question

[fiery goblet]

Maybe I phrased it poorly

[olive drift]

New characters will often be confusing

[fiery goblet]

To be fair, that's a reasonable strategy.

[olive drift]

Like game 1 would have ended poorly on any Yaggababble or Balloonist script

With Balloonist as a bluff

None of the other characters really mattered when the Yagg was in a double claim with their Minions and claimed to see tokens

[fiery goblet]

Yeah, I'm personally not sure these guys are experienced enough for Yag or Balloonist

[olive drift]

It's a bit like how on BMR people mess up chambermaid bluffs by claiming to pick dead players, or mess up Courtiers by saying "I chose to drunk Alex"

And BMR is one of the base 3

[fiery goblet]

Okay, fair. Tossing people in the deep end is something I've advocated for.

Yeah, they'll be fine.

[olive drift]

The main difficult points here, which do need to be looked out for are

Well really it's about the quality of the Storyteller rather than the players

[tropic tree]

Ohhhh ma god

[olive drift]

Can the Storyteller make a balanced amnesiac ability?
(And also, do the players have enough experience to guess said ability)

And

[fiery goblet]

Yeah. There is a Yaggababble here. I think the ST is probably doing fine.

[olive drift]

Can the Storyteller make a balanced bag.

BMR style

[fiery goblet]

Oh, and "can the ST give the Yag a good phrase, and keep on top of it". Those are the skill checks here.

[olive drift]

There are smaller ones like running General, Savant and Fisherman well too. Like this script is ST intensive

As a player also, it's very easy to go wrong strategically and win and lose tempo

Which is what we see here

Evil can do very well in China Shop but they can also fall apart

It's part of the script

[fiery goblet]

Which is part of basically any balanced script, therefore we're probably fine

[olive drift]

Well right now it's actually quite evil leaning

From limited data

[fiery goblet]

Okay, that's a little worrying

[olive drift]

It is!

But I don't know how to change it and I will just chill and reserve judgement!

Most final 3s felt close according to players

[fiery goblet]

I think we can brush it off as ratty data for now, but if the trend continues we probably want to adjust some things.

[tiny stone]

I think the group as a whole is definitely experienced enough. Most of the players have played over 100 games. It was just unfortunate in the first game that the Demon fell to the player that was definitely the least experienced of the group (as usual).

[olive drift]

Ah a shame

[fiery goblet]

Ah, the new player curse. That explains a lot.

[tiny stone]

The Typhon also fell next to that same player in the second game so I didn’t have a choice on turning them evil

[fiery goblet]

Rather unfortunate.

Oh well, we move on

[tiny stone]

Indeed

[olive drift]

Did players have fun though, despite it being scuffed

That's kinda one of the most important metrics!

[mortal oar]

Another random question

Would you sink yaggababble into fool if you felt it would help a team

[tiny stone]

Oh yeah for sure

[olive drift]

Yes

If the Yagg is spamming their phrase sink 1 of their kills in a fool

It stops the Yagg from being too obvious, but it still slightly accelerates the game and prevents science on the fool

[lucid vault]

this got ran over on CTBotC last night!

[olive drift]

Oh nice

What is that

Sorry am ill so my brain is like 60% usual capacity

[lucid vault]

flowchart loss (mayor win)

[lucid vault]

the connecticut blood on the clocktower stream run by Navean and Malashaan!

(Styr is dead because the Mayor bounced to them going into f3)

[olive drift]

Oh neat

Oh neat mayor win

Yippeee

[cinder coyote]

Livetext LoT Win

• Witch was originally Gambler
• Assassin was originally Fool
• Bluffs were Savant/Amne/GMa

Highlights:

• Knight talked to General, learnt "Slightly Evil" and clocked LoT immediately D1.
• D2, TC died to Witch Curse, but Witch was being suspicious with a potential Yag Phrase "We Should Execute"
• Ended up exeing Tinker last day (D4?) due to possible Vigor. Mostly cause LoT was bluffing Amne with "Each Night, Choose 2 players: Learn if they have ever woken in the game" and Tinker was seen to have woken
• Assassin bluffed being LoT's Grandmother too
• Decent Social Distancing between the Evil Teams vote-wise. Made me, the Knight, think I was too tunnelled all game.

[cinder coyote]

Minor Caveats:

• ST Internet died late D1, so there was a lull period of about maybe 20-30mins. What wldve been maybe a 1hr-1.5hr game became 2hrs
• Combined with it generally being in the early AMs (like, anywehere from 1am to 4am) for a majority of the players, most of us were ready to be done by the end

[olive drift]

11/19 evil win, so some balancing out