China Shop

[olive drift]

Noble LoT works

But only just

You need to be so careful with thr Pings every game

Or you rulr out like 4 LoT worlds

[rugged kiln]

well with spy not so much, right?

[olive drift]

No

Imagine you put the Pings near to each other

There has to be at least 1 evil in those Pings

[rugged kiln]

yeah you can't put them all near each other, for sure

[olive drift]

Which means you've restricted where Typhon lines are

[rugged kiln]

but like two next to each other, one elsewhere is fine imo

[olive drift]

I've simulated noble Pings and

[rugged kiln]

sure it becomes a bit of a spy finder sometimes

[olive drift]

Ii5 feels like there is only 1 orientation or noble pings where they don't rule out too much

It feels forced

When I get to my computer I'll just show it

It's hard to explain but when you experience it you realise it is kinda wonky

[rugged kiln]

nah i kinda know what you mean

then when you add in just other things going on ™️ it doesn't go so well

[olive drift]

It's more I don't want to release 2.5 and then we get 7 good wins because the ST runs noble like they usually would and inadvertently rule out like 8 unique typhon lined

And then good stomps

[rugged kiln]

yeah fair

proofing scripts against idiot STs is generally a good plan

and something I don't really think about much because a lot of the STs I play with are reasonably competent

[olive drift]

It's more if the charactrr inly works if you know exactly what's up

It means its not as flexible as it could be

[rugged kiln]

this sounds a bit harsh, perhaps I should say removing pitfalls that STs picking up the script might not spot

yeah

[olive drift]

Which shows it might not be a perfect fit

[rugged kiln]

yeha

[olive drift]

I'd love to talk more and I will in about 30 mins

[olive drift]

Hi again

I think it's definitely possible to find good noble pings that doesn't rule out any Typhon lines, it's just an extra thing you need to keep in mind

This equally could have gone really badly and the Noble just ruling out 4 Typhon lines by existing and being sober (8 if you count the different Demon centres)

even stuff which doesn't seem too bad at first glance can rule out Typhon lines (Like the Ryan to Steam this Noble ruled out). It's possib;e to fix by moving the ping from Zaco to Stea,. but ye... it equires more thought than usual

[olive drift]

hmm. I'm beginning not to hate Noble

There are ways to get it very wrong

but as long as you keep 'this is a Typhon script' in mind, I think it turns out OK

[vapid escarp]

Gonna do the Ben B classic of showing 3 players in a row

[olive drift]

this is exactly what I'm worried about

[vapid escarp]

Ideally you show cardinal points wrt the noble right

[olive drift]

Well

Ok it's actually quite foolproof now that I have a vibe for it

[vapid escarp]

The 4 players that are the noble + their pings should ideally be evenly spaced?

[olive drift]

You just need to make sure you show someone within 4 steps away from the Noble on each side+someone in between

[vapid escarp]

Isn't that dependent on minion count

[olive drift]

even this doesn't rule stuff out

[olive drift]

yup in 12p

[vapid escarp]

Got it

[olive drift]

But I think it gets easier as player numbers go down

But here no Typhon line is ruled out despite 2 players being next to eachother on pings

And bc of Spy 2 people being next to each other on pings is acceptable

[vapid escarp]

Got it

[vapid escarp]

But have you considered that spy TL is bad actually

[olive drift]

But its quite flexible. You do need to have a tad bit more thought if you are placing pings next to the noble

[olive drift]

Why's that?

pulls up science rules

[vapid escarp]

I mean yeah

[olive drift]

No I don't think it is

That Spy ain't becoming a Demon

[vapid escarp]

Science is like barely worth it anymore

It's not game breaking

But tl is weak

[olive drift]

Unsure if it's weak

it confirms itself and its neighbours as not demons

and says at least 1 is good

can i see the science laws again

[vapid escarp]

I need to properly write this whole thing up at some point

[olive drift]

So it only breaks science law 1.

[vapid escarp]

Yes

[olive drift]

And again, on a Spy who can't later become the Demon

[vapid escarp]

Yeah law 4 is upheld just fine

[olive drift]

I don't think Spy+Science is that bad honestly

[vapid escarp]

Breaking law 1 just makes it really weak, you're trading an execution for something that doesn't really translate to more effective worldbuilding

They're not confirmed good so you can't trust their info/claims

[olive drift]

Sure but you know the Tea Lady and their neighbour, at least one of them is good

[vapid escarp]

It's not unplayable however when I play this at f3c tomorrow I will be trying to get them to run a widow version instead

[olive drift]

Ah v2.4

Also really cool

Say how it goes!

[vapid escarp]

Oh absolutely

[olive drift]

v2.4 is still v close to my heart haha

[vapid escarp]

-# keep it there

[olive drift]

I think it's an excersise in a low misinfo script

And it sucks to change it

But yeah evil seem to be kinda scrambling for wins on this thing

Also spy bluffing fool in a pacifist game is just very funny

ah

Here's a good example of a grimoire where it's really difficult to get good noble pings

Which don't rule a lot out

Placing pings on the Demon or Tea Lady protected players seems eh

So it just leads to the Edgar-Zaco Typhon line just being ruled out

[olive drift]

So ye

Noble does have grims which rule out Typhon lines, and I got this one randomly

But yeah

Me wanting to keep knight was what lead to the Ojo Thai Shop

Xaan gives a way for Knight pings to go wrong

And it has all the weirdness of Spy+Science. The issue is what the script loses. Losing Yagg+Witch is losing a lot of the script's identity.

I still like the Puzzlemaster Xaan Spy Trio though

Its a fair amount of misinformation, but all of it works fairly predictably

[vapid escarp]

Thai shop 😭

[olive drift]

yee

i do really like this version because it covers the misinformation issues of the Spy China Shop, and the lack of grimpeaking of the Xaan China Shop (Korea Shop)

Hystrex will probably like this version the most 😭

it has Puzzlemaster and Xaan

How could he resist

[vapid escarp]

I do prefer xaan over spy

[olive drift]

yee. Spy was on bc it makes Grandmother bluffable, and makes certain other things easier to bluff

I do personally disagree w Science laws. I think they are a way to do things but you can make a BMR-like w different laws.

But ye, if you can be happy w no grim peaker/Grandmother then you can go for Korea Shop

[olive drift]

Do you prefer it over Widow?

Also maybe unpin v2.5. I'd like more data on v2.4, to get an idea what people want to change

[vapid escarp]

Honestly idk

[wet path]

Just played two 7p games of this, featuring a d1 alsahir win in a typhon game and a d2 mayor win in a yag game

[olive drift]

Guh

[wet path]

Tbf the same player was demon both games and read socially evil both games

[olive drift]

Yeah. It always seems like that lol

Evil have 1 player who reads socially evil and that is enough for them to lose the game

It's disproportionate

[wet path]

lol sounds about right

[shy spoke]

Alsaahir + 7p LoT, ouch

[olive drift]

Yee

[shy spoke]

Uhh, D2?

[olive drift]

Yagg probably said their phrase 200 times or smth

[wet path]

So d1 they executed the moon child who picked the demon, and that night the gambler gambled incorrectly

[olive drift]

Do you have more details about what was in each game? I'm tracking (well Sharkly is) how often each character wins

[olive drift]

Yikes

[wet path]

The DA had protected the demon, so rather than getting no yag kills and going to 5, or one and going to an awkward 4, I just gave the yag their two kills and made a final three so both teams would have a chance

Uh I took a picture of the second grim and can probably reconstruct the first

[olive drift]

Thanks!

[wet path]

Game 1: Typhon assassin DA mayor alsahir fool amne (Typhon ate knight and gambler)

Game 2: yag DA moonchild balloonist savant gambler mayor

They weren't the most serious games ever tbh - they were fun though, people did like the script

Oh and I told the savant "chef 0 / you are witch cursed" in the hopes that they would nominate and I could yag kill them

[olive drift]

It's good they were fun

[olive drift]

Pff

It seems like a fun script but quite good sided

Did you try the version w widow on?

(That's most versions)

[wet path]

Yep

I believe I pulled from the script website for the version

[olive drift]

Cool!

Any other feelings about it?

[wet path]

I definitely enjoyed it - umm having a socially trusted mayor with basically no evil counterplay was a bit rough, but I probably could have bagbuilt around that more

(Having backread a bit) I do agree with the take that it feels like two teams neither of which fully have counterplay for each other (which seems like a feature more than a bug, but in our two games at least it ended up being pretty goodsided)

Also it was a bit hard to find bluffs that felt like the evil team could use to push worlds - maybe that's not always necessary, but I noticed bluffspace was mentioned earlier and I kinda see why? Like that's a pretty small thing in the grand scheme but I did notice it now that I think about it

But also everyone had fun with the script, so it did what matters the most imo

[olive drift]

Which characters seem like difficult evil bluffs?

Also thank you!

[wet path]

I think it was just like, having put more of the info roles into play, and knowing most of my players probably won't bluff savant successfully, it felt hard to give the evil team any way of pushing back against ie the mayor claim. Maybe I just needed to give them a more mechanical way of doing so like widow? (Also I'm not the most experienced st/scriptbuilder, so take what I say with a grain of salt)

Like it's less about bluffability and more me going "what bluffs will help the evil team the most to have" and then realizing I'd put all of the most potent bluffs in play

[olive drift]

Mk

[olive drift]

The Xaan version of the script doesn't have a great replacement for Alsaahir

[olive drift]

@turbid anchor in case you missed it

More data!

[turbid anchor]

Oh I 100% missed it

Is it 2.4 or 2.5

[olive drift]

2.4

2.5 exists in a superposition between 3 different ideas

When I run a scheduled China Shop game I'm gonna put it to a vote or spin a wheel

[turbid anchor]

If I run China shop in 2 days should I run 2.4 or 2.5

hypothetically…

[olive drift]

There are a lot if 2.5s. Even the one I named 2.5 has issues. I will try and refine each version and you can make your choice

[rugged kiln]

Is godfather for xaan an awful swap

Keeping yag and witch as well, then

[olive drift]

I think it is

Letting go of killing Minions means that Yagg gets more and mote obvious

And that means the other two demons can fake it lees and less reliably

Maybe it's a solution. Idk why that'd the best solution tho

Also assassin is a tad bit more interesting w Godfather

[olive drift]

God if I get rid of Alsaahir this is hard

[shy spoke]

-# Your Fisherman advice is to add Fisherman to this script

[olive drift]

It's not enough

Say I go for a Xaan version

I need to get rid of Alsaahir and Grandmother (no grim peaker anymore). I replace one with fisherman and the other with ????

Say I go for a Spy version. I get rid of Alsaahir and Savant. I replace one with fisherman and the other with ????

Say I go for the Spy+Xaan version. I need to replace Alsaahir, Savant and Town Crier (no Witch). I replace them with Gossip, Fisherman and ????

[shy spoke]

What are the alsaahir stats?

[olive drift]

You can see it in pins

[shy spoke]

Like how many out of how many alsaahir games are alsaahir wins

[sand mulch]

12/17

oh but thats winrate

[olive drift]

Yeah it's won room it's ability erm..

[shy spoke]

Is it like 5 or 6/17?

Anyways, 1/3 is too high imo

[olive drift]

4/17

[shy spoke]

I think the only necessary change currently is removing alsaahir

[olive drift]

I don't.

I think the misinformation here is too loud

I don't think replacing Alsaahir w Fisherman will lead to a dramatic shift in winrate

I can see Alsaahir going in place of fisherman sure

There isn't enough misinformation imo and fisherman won't fix that

[sand mulch]

just add poisoner

dies

[olive drift]

Oh look you said the yagg phrase

[vapid escarp]

Axo tunneled on me being the vigorkilled DA, unfortunately I was the vigorkilled DA

I got 3 DA saves and then saved the demon a day too soon 😭

Fun game tho

Demon claimed philo paci and I thought it was falling apart the next day

[olive drift]

Philo???

What version is thid

[vapid escarp]

2.1?

Ish

It's not 2.4

[olive drift]

Fair

Thoughts?

[vapid escarp]

Fun!!

[olive drift]

Good it was fun!

[vapid escarp]

I think if the witch actually got kills early we would've won off tempo

[olive drift]

Yee

That's so many stories of the game though.

[vapid escarp]

And I couldn't really do the vigor thing of bluffing anything useful because I hard claimed to axo immediately and didn't wanna pivot

[olive drift]

Yee

[vapid escarp]

Look 3 da saves is a win in my book

I believe that was half the executions

[olive drift]

Yeah its neat

On BMR play like that might be enough

[vapid escarp]

Yeah

We had no nightkilling minions which was tough but interesting

[olive drift]

I'm happy you enjoyed it

[vapid escarp]

And the witch kept whiffing lol

[olive drift]

Yee

Its witch

[vapid escarp]

Anyways for the first 3 days axo (good player) said all the things that I (evil player) would have said meaning I didn't have to pull any social weight

[olive drift]

A successful witch game would get players tunnelling on Yagga

[olive drift]

I think I'll roll out 2.5 w the only change being Alsaahir->Fisherman

And then we'll see. I believe that won't be enough

But I think I need to test out some new evil teams

[olive drift]

Yagga Win!

[olive drift]

Part of it did come from not the most ideal pacifist save (Owen the puzzledrunk Town Crier being saved next to King who was soft claiming Tea Lady) but evil did well after that point too

This brings Yagg back up to a scorching 37.5% winrate 😎

[lucid vault]

pacifist doubleclaim 🔥🔥🔥

[vapid escarp]

Should have pivoted like you did

Or just claimed savant lol

[lucid vault]

wdym pivot

I was the grandmother

that's not a pivot that's just grandmajank

(claiming your child's role)

[vapid escarp]

Close enough

[turbid anchor]

This is only 3/17, one was a random day 1 guess

It counts technically but I feel like it makes Alsaahir seem stronger than it is…

[olive drift]

actually two were random day 1 guesses

but both on Typhon lines

Also I don't think there were random. Social reads can get quite far

[lucid vault]

Wait a minute I just realized this was a good sweep of the evilsided version

2.1 best version 🔥🔥🔥

[vapid escarp]

It seems my strat of not letting the good team kill anyone ever falls apart when town double taps once 😔

[turbid anchor]

Btw the game of 2.4 was a Typhon win

[olive drift]

Oh you had a tyohon win?

Coool!

Do you want to add it. We actually are getting near to 30 games now!

[olive drift]

Also while walking around Spain admist the powercuts something blindingly obvious occurred to me

[cloud thistle]

You’re in Spain?

[olive drift]

Holiday

[cloud thistle]

Lucky

[olive drift]

I know! It's lovely here

Except the national powercuts that have been going on for 9 hours it's great

[lucid vault]

I'm in Spain without the a

[cloud thistle]

Did they ever say why

[olive drift]

Nope

Still a mystery

But yes for Korea Shop

The Xaan China Shop

I was like "hey grandmother doesn't have a good grimpeaking replacement" before I realised oh wait

Steward

Now I can pretty confidently make Xaan China Shop. Fisherman<->Alsaahir are interchangeable

Is it necessary? Idk

Its at least good it exists as an option

[turbid anchor]

I do t have the grim pic but will get it soon

[vapid escarp]

Grandma is fine without the grimpeeker 😭

I'm more worried about the lack of zombuul bc now bluffing a grandma death is pretty useless, but that's also not really significant

[olive drift]

BMR and China Shop use grandmother differently

Grandmother is strong on China Shop bc it disproves Typhon lines, but can cause death mod and can be bluffed by grimpeakers

BMR has no evils bluffing grandmother on good players, but they can do the zombuul assassin thing

A grandmother bluff by a widow breaking up a typhon line though is nice

[vapid escarp]

Oh right typhon

[olive drift]

Also grandmother Typhon is neat if the grandmother is droisoned

Bc you can show a Typhon minion w a free bluff

[vapid escarp]

Why steward over NWM

[olive drift]

NWM destroys Typhon lines

[vapid escarp]

Isn't that the point

[olive drift]

V effectively

[vapid escarp]

Too strong?

[olive drift]

Well firstly you cannot send the ping to your neighbours almost ever

Or you do nothing

To disprove typhon

[vapid escarp]

Right but it's proccing maybe half the time

[olive drift]

Sending it across is just one of the best things you can do

Like Steward can be bluffed

Or poisoned

NWM is like the payoff of banshee. Bluffing it as evil is very hard but also a lot more high stakes/damaging

Because if you are two evils across the grim bluffing a successful NWM ping

Then congrats you just got rid of 3 Typhon worlds for free

Like take what issues people have with Alsaahir (which I am mixed on)

Then multiply them

[vapid escarp]

Right but I just don't like steward lol

[olive drift]

I think Steward at least is interesting with Lord of Typhon

It has less deathmod than grandmother

I like it less than grandmother but

Grandmother needs to have a grimpeaker on this script

Because you risk ruling out a huge number of Typhon lines with some grandmother confirmations

There needs to be a way for them to not be aligned. And Widow/Typhon gave a way for both the grandmother and the grandchild to be evil

NWM is a tad bit better but it rules out so many Typhon lines that bluffing it as evil becomes impractical

[vapid escarp]

Steward Typhon is cool yeah

Not with the other demons

[olive drift]

Grandmother is cooler with Yagg

And is about the same with Vigor

But even if it's a game with the other demons, the Steward should know unless they are poisoned, that their ping rules out Typhon lines

In a specific area

I do like 2.4's evil team, but I think Widow->Xaan is a pretty good idea if it feels like good are getting solves p consistently

also xaan Puzzlemaster is in theory cooler than Puzzlemaster Widow

[vapid escarp]

This is true

[olive drift]

I heard someone really cool made that argument

It was also why I wanted Drunk instead of Puzzlemaster in the first place

bc Widow+PM feels unsolvable for the PM

At least Xaan PM has a chance

[vapid escarp]

Really? That's crazy I didn't hear that

[olive drift]

yea

I think Xaan will be cool. I think the Yaggerless Ojo version of China Shop might do better in a longtext format

[wheat karma]

LoT game first death: pacifist (lucky hit)
Yagga game first death: Town crier

The lack of droison/misreg in the bag makes it goodsided.

Btw i use the steward and xaan version of CS

[olive drift]

Did both games end in a good win?

[gleaming monolith]

By looking at the grims, LoT lost and yagga won

[olive drift]

idk the yagga is in f3

[wheat karma]

Good wins both games

[olive drift]

I see I see

well this is a variation of 2.5 nt 2.4 so not added to data. But thank you, it is a version I am keeping an eye on

[rugged kiln]

we're wrapping up a game of 2.4 rn!

its been a fun game to storytell

[olive drift]

YIPPEEE

yay

[rugged kiln]

evil win, demon was bluffing TC and got socially read as a minion

[olive drift]

yay!

I think it's very funny that the Widow has 'Fool' next to them

As they they did something silly

Did people figure out it was a Typhon game or

[lilac ridge]

honestly self poisoning was good in the game

I was so confused as to where the minions where

[olive drift]

Ah because of a slow witch and a quiet DA?

[lilac ridge]

yup there was one one witch kill and no da saves

[olive drift]

yee

I would almost always build that as a Vigor game as a player

Well, also I'd consider Typhon lines, but it's China Shop, everyone is scared of Typhon lines

@turbid anchor more data!

[turbid anchor]

I’m studying, I’ll add the data in a little bit if that’s alright? 👍

[olive drift]

If we take 2 Typhon wins... then Typhon is going to a 40% winrate. Not high... but definitely less worrying than 25% looks 😅

Of course it's alright

[turbid anchor]

Done!

[wheat karma]

Can i have the spy version of CS?

[rugged kiln]

evil win of 2.4

[olive drift]

Another one?!

Huh

[olive drift]

Sure

Did the yagg just win by screaming "Science!" Over and over lol

[rugged kiln]

not actually lol

they said two per day over the first two days

[lilac ridge]

script not good sided confirmed

two evil wins

in a row!

[rugged kiln]

the tinker also died during the day and the mayor died to the plague doctor witch ability

the godfather got judge slammed as well

[olive drift]

I feel good winrate depends on if a Puzzlemaster or Widow exists :P

[olive drift]

Dam

[rugged kiln]

true...

godfather was bluffing PM as well tbf

[olive drift]

Yee

[rugged kiln]

but honestly this was quite a vibes based game

[olive drift]

I think it often is. Evil wins if they get their vibes right

And loses in a hole if any of them slip up too much

Xaan might help evil get some breathing room, bc it is silent droison

But they lose a grimpeaker

[rugged kiln]

i'm really coming to love this script

[olive drift]

I am happy to see the script isn't as good sided as I thought

[rugged kiln]

i have always liked it

[olive drift]

Yeah I've not heard anyone had a bad game on this version despite its imbalances. Its like "yeah evil got ground into a pulp, but we had fun"

And I'm just sitting like "ok then..."

[rugged kiln]

but as i have come to play and ST it more, i'm appreciating a lot of the interactions more and more and more

[olive drift]

Thank youu

I think in an experienced group evil can get the hang of this version it looks like

[rugged kiln]

yeah i think so

[olive drift]

Like the lack of droison is tough. It's one of the sticking points here. But good often need to rely on vibes anyway to get a full solve

It just happens that there are a bunch of games where evil's vibes were too rank to make that challenging :P

[quick pier]

are we bringing back 2.4

[lucid vault]

i vote we bring back 2.1

[olive drift]

Well technically i did retcon 2.5

[olive drift]

I'm p sure 2.1 has innkeeper on so no

Innkeeper was problematic

[lucid vault]

booooo

[olive drift]

No ones stopping you from playing it.

[olive drift]

sharkly do you have data from your typhon win or no

if yo don't it's fine

[turbid anchor]

Still don’t have the grim pic but might be able to remember the characters, I’ll 100% have the grim pic by tn

[rugged kiln]

the savant bluff didn't quite check out

[fringe socket]

Good win on Final 5. But had Plague Doctor on the block and could have ended with an evil win before lifting to Vigor

[turbid anchor]

@fringe socket is this 2.5 with or without Spy?

[fringe socket]

with 👍

[turbid anchor]

Thanks 👌

[olive drift]

Oh yea people playing w the spy version

How did Spy feel paradox?

[wheat karma]

Game 1: LoT loss that claims fisherman. Town doesn't buy it
First death: Tea lady
Game 2: LoT win. Evil use reverse psychology
First death: General (witch cursed)
Game 3: Vigo win. Saved by DA during final 3
First death : Mayor (witch cursed)

used 2.5 version

My friends have strong social vibes and the addition of spy just reduced that capability as seen on game 2

[olive drift]

Interesting!

[fringe socket]

Uhhh I think the only spy mention was it the PD was the Spy who got saved D1 as they didn’t die at night

[olive drift]

Hmm ok

[fringe socket]

But also that’s kinda Spy’s vibe

[wheat karma]

4 games 50% wr

[olive drift]

Yee that's cool!

It usually takes a bit more data to see a bigger trend. Like 2.4 has settled at around a 40/60 evil-good winrate, which is better than I thought

I still like both the Spy and Xaan versions. It's just figuring out what works! Which you are doing

Are the group enjoying the script?

[wheat karma]

I never thought this script have high replayability. I thought its a one time thing fun only.

Need to reach 30 games if it is effective

[olive drift]

Pfff. So did it surprise you? Or are you not sure

[wheat karma]

It did surprise me.

[olive drift]

Oh ye I played this twice w the Xaan version in my group

Game 1 was an insta good win (Yagg next to a tea lady)

Game 2 was a hard fought Lord of Typhon win

I do think Xaan+Science is cool, but in practice Science does a great job at ruling out Xaan nights

I am gonna carry on trying the Widow, Spy, Xaan versions pretty interchangably

And see what works best

[olive drift]

I think Spy+Science isn't as bad as Hystrex says and it'll work kinda nice in practice

[vapid escarp]

:(

(yeah do what you want lol)

[lilac ridge]

typhon win!

[olive drift]

Time to report a 2.4 win!

@turbid anchor !

[shy spoke]

Sharkly's last message was more than 2 weeks ago

[olive drift]

ah

well

I could take over as head archivist of winrates

2.4 Recorded Winrates:
Townsfolk:
Fool 70% 7/10
Pacifist 67% 10/15
Alsaahir 67% 12/18
Balloonist 67% 12/18
Amnesiac 64% 9/14
Gambler 62% 8/13
Tea Lady 55% 6/11
Mayor 54% 7/13
General 53% 9/17
Savant 47% 7/15
Knight 47% 8/17
Town Crier 41% 7/17
Grandmother 40% 6/15

Outsiders:
Moonchild 71% 5/7
Tinker 60% 3/5
Plague Doctor 55% 6/11
Puzzlemaster 33% 3/9

Minions:
Godfather 60% 6/10
Widow 53% 8/15
Assassin 50% 5/10
Devils Advocate 41% 9/22
Witch 20% 2/10

Demons:
Vigormortis 45% 5/11
Yaggababble 44% 4/9
Lord of Typhon 45% 5/11

45% evil WR, 55% good WR

Honestly it's balancing out

[gleaming monolith]

Why is grandma being weak

[olive drift]

idk!

Widow can fake a grandmother

And it speeds up the game

[turbid anchor]

I’m on it

[olive drift]

yyayyy

China Shop awakens Sharkly from a fortnight long slumber!!!

part of me now does feel that alsaahir->fish is a reasonable change as the winrates are not as unbalanced as it first appeared

[vapid escarp]

Pin?

[olive drift]

Nah

Sharkly is on it

[vapid escarp]

Cool

[olive drift]

@median mauve hi

well there's China Shop, Thai Shop, Korea Shop and Japan Shop

[median mauve]

what are the differences

[olive drift]

This is classico. Alsaahir->Fisherman

Hmm

Lemme find the others

Japan Shop is the Spy version of China Shop.

This one I think is fairly promising

Korea Shop is the Xaan version

I am less sure about korea Shop

I think Xaan+Science is interesting in theory but is eh in practice w the misregistration I want

But

These are all low spice compared to Thai Shop

Thai Shop is what I can describe as a desperate attempt to make pieces fit, with ojo replacing Yaggababble, both Witch and Widow being replaced by Spy and Xaan, and Gossip joining the good team.

no one likes Thai Shop

Well I do, I think it's almost good

[median mauve]

what the fuck

[olive drift]

Anywya

[median mauve]

i'm sorry it's so funny that thai shop just went of the rail

[olive drift]

I need to test all these sometime

Yea

[median mauve]

you already have 30 game tested 😭

[olive drift]

Thai Shop is the off the rails 'THERE ISN'T ENOUGH MISREGISTRATION WHAT DO I DO 😭'

[sand mulch]

2.4 best version

[olive drift]

I have 31 games of v2.4 tested

45% evil 55% good winrates

Yeah 2.4 has Alsaahir as China Shop's strongest soldier

[sand mulch]

(which is more balanced than both pies baking and catfishing)

[olive drift]

well and Fool

[median mauve]

btw poor witch

20% wr 😔

[olive drift]

Witch is there to give Yaggababble a higher winrate

It's very important

[median mauve]

what in the wintrading

[olive drift]

yea

Witch is... a Minion

Also of all China Shop games of version 2.4, only 9 of them didn't contain a DA

of 31

71% DA inclusion 😭

[median mauve]

😭

i mean DA is very stranded here

[olive drift]

DA holds the exe survival of this script together

[median mauve]

the more minion there is, the more DA is needed

oh i mean stranded as in

[olive drift]

ye

m?

[median mauve]

"force to appear more because if not evil team just shit and die"

[olive drift]

yee

[median mauve]

(ill note though this problem is solved when it's an lot game)

[olive drift]

It's a fun script. I might even add fisherman back to it sometime

[median mauve]

wait

isn't the current ver alsaahir > fish?

[olive drift]

2.4 is the current win

version

Fish->Alsaahir

[median mauve]

oh 2.5 haven't been published

[olive drift]

ye

Look 4/18 games being Alsaahir wins isn't an issue trust me

If you're the Alsaahir you have a 22% chance of winning the game off your ability aparently

[median mauve]

so true!

[shy spoke]

Is pies baking that good sided?

Classico best v2.5 imo

[olive drift]

i think I like China or Japan

[shy spoke]

I don't really like vigor/spy tbh

[median mauve]

yes

[sand mulch]

57 good 43 evil

[olive drift]

idm Vigor Spy

[shy spoke]

Wha-

[olive drift]

I think the other interactions spy has make up for it

[olive drift]

Surprisingly balanced

look i have seen this script swing both ways my ideas of 'balance' are wonky

ye

let's do it

Version 2.5

Fish out of Water
Alsaahir ->Fisherman

Vatiegated sharks, Velvet Vatifish, Vatibond Butterflyfish all magically appear. Let's see if this replacement will make China Shop more balanced, give people more fun, or both!

Let's keep an aye aye out on these waters captain! And see what other changes there are to come!

@vapid escarp pin this thang pls pls pls 🥺

[vapid escarp]

jk ill do the real thing

[olive drift]

AAAA

[vapid escarp]

do you want me to unpin the prev version

[olive drift]

hm

Unpin the previous version

Do not unpin the winrates

[vapid escarp]

done

[shy spoke]

:0

[quick pier]

what’s the actual most recent version of china shop

oh hey

i didn’t scroll up before posting that

[atomic pebble]

Would this initially work.

Technically it just puts it on a normal base 2..

GF -1 (1 Outsider)

LoT +1 (2 Outsiders)

[olive drift]

Yes. Outsider count is arbritrary in LoT games

[atomic pebble]

I think it works

PM drunk in Mayor.
Ballonist and DA is Knight Pings to potentially confirm the DA

[little hemlock]

Played this game a few days ago, evil won

just in case anyone wants it for statistics

[olive drift]

I assume this is V2.4

OMG

It's 2.5

Based

STAT TIME

[median mauve]

who did you poison?

[little hemlock]

I actually don't know if that's accurate. I know it says that, but I may have named it wrong when I saved the file

This was the file I used

[olive drift]

Ah it's 2.4

[little hemlock]

With the Vig?

[olive drift]

Ohhh

It's this weird version

With Spy

[little hemlock]

What's the most up to date version?

[olive drift]

Currently it is 2.5, but i was not sure how to change China Shop

I released this one w Spy as 2.5, but people convinced me it wasn't the way forward

I still do find that version promising tho

[little hemlock]

What version would you want me to run in the future for your stats?

[olive drift]

Check pinned messages

BUT

How did you find spy

If I had to change 1 thing about the evil team, I am strongly considering Widow->Spy so

It's still a worthwhile idea

did you enjoy the game?

[little hemlock]

As in how I found that version, or how did I find it played out in the game?

[olive drift]

How did it play out

Also if you have any opinions about that version

do say

[little hemlock]

I will preface it with, my group isn't super experienced with customs, and some of them weren't very experienced with Clocktower at all

[olive drift]

that's fine. While this script has some more advanced characters like Amnesiac and Lord of Typhon, I don't want it just to be played w super experienced people :P

[little hemlock]

Good should've won, hands down. They had a ton of confirmation early on and were on to the Demon and DA very quickly. But for the life of them, good would not nominate and would not put votes on people, they completely threw. There was literally only 1 good player who was not convinced of the correct world (the Fool), because they had no info and the evil team had won them over on socials. I will say that the Fool likely would've been convinced of the correct world were it not for Spy being on the script, because they strongly believed the spy had messed with town's info

Good lost the final day because the DA protected the Demon. They definitely had multiple opportunities to kill both of them on previous days

I was the ST

[olive drift]

That lines up w this script in general

Games often feel like good is on the right track

But then, something goes slightly wrong

I do like Spy on here. Widow right now announces itself if it messes with anything

Thanks for talking about your experiences though. How do you feel about the script?

[little hemlock]

Yeah I think I like the uncertain threat of Spy messing with potentially multiple mechanical abilities as opposed to the announced Widow messing with only one

[olive drift]

Yeah. My main issue with Spy is Knight.

because it doesn't mess with knight, so Knight is only messed up by Puzzlemaster

[little hemlock]

I've only played it the one time, but it did feel very in favor of good, if they had just followed their very strong info. My group wants to play it again

[olive drift]

Yeah!

It is slightly good sided

A lot of games with evil feel hard won

[little hemlock]

Fair, but Knight is a very weak YSK so that may be fine

[olive drift]

On China Shop it's actually pretty strong

Well

[little hemlock]

nevermind then

[olive drift]

Now looking at the winrates

It is one of the weaker characters

😅

[little hemlock]

lol

[olive drift]

But it's stronger than town Crier

[little hemlock]

gotcha

how interesting

[olive drift]

And as strong as Savant?!

47%

[little hemlock]

oh wow

[olive drift]

If you look at the pins there's all sorts of weird stuff

Like the highest winrate Townsfolk being... Fool

[little hemlock]

oh my

[olive drift]

yeah if you're a fool you've basically won apparently 😅

[little hemlock]

lol

I would love to keep chatting, but I have to go unfortunately. I'll let you know the results the next time we play!

[olive drift]

Cool!

Thanks for dropping by!

[wheat karma]

It should be a feature since spy is already a strong minion.
I see it that knight is very weak in this script since its easy for evil to claim with this role and town won't 100% believe the pings.

[rain parcel]

It’s also knight

It’s fine

[shy spoke]

Might wanna update this on botc scripts btw

[olive drift]

Trueee

[olive drift]

I'll do it this evening. And also will organise a playtest!

[cursive pike]

I've run this recently and I'm of the opinion that Lord of Typhon doesn't work well with loud Minions, it's very easy to confirm Typhon when there's an extra Minion ability in play. It also limits the bluff space for the evil team because they can't do things like claim a Widow ping when they know they have a Witch, a Godfather and an Assassin, unless they want to completely hide some of those abilities.

I also think Savant is difficult to work with on a script with such low droison, either you give them info that's super vague and ambiguous or completely gamesolving - which creates further problems with Lord of Typhon setups

I would suggest Shabaloth if you want to give the evil team some more kill power, amongst other things it also covers for possible Assassin/Godfather deaths in ways that no other characters can currently do

[sand mulch]

you seem to have missed the yaggababble

[quick pier]

yeah i’d say there’s enough confounds in this script to justify LoT

[vapid escarp]

I wrote a case study on why it works here in particular!!

You gotta scroll, I'd post screenshots but my phone doesn't wanna send images rn

It definitely takes some care to make LoT work with loud minions, but this script absolutely gives it that care :D

The Savant thing is kinda real tho ngl

[olive drift]

To respond to this, I think Yaggababble can cover Typhon games fine

[olive drift]

I would like to know what the game was, what version and who won

For data

Savant is a fairly good point. I do think Fisherman does what Savant wants to do but better

Also general vibes. For example, if the game didn't have a whole lot of chatty players, maybe Yaggababble does not cover Typhon very well (I do think they both synergise well though, Typhon makes good team a lot more vigilant and active about voting and typhon lines, so they might have to talk to get their points across)

[cursive pike]

I ran two games a few days ago with the latest version I found on the script website, and good won both by hardsolving Typhon

first game (has Savant) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10DRsvZTmW4

second game (Savant is a bluff) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ-teKYaB3Y&pp=0gcJCbAJAYcqIYzv

I would like to know if there are any recorded Typhon wins on this script or similar scripts, and how they work with loud Minions, because I'm not convinced that this is the way for Typhon

I think one or two loud Minions on the script is probably fine because there can always not exist more Minions or the other Minions can be quiet, but that doesn't apply to any of the options on this version

[rain parcel]

There’s been recorded Typhon wins

(Yagga is meant to cover Typhon)

(It’s less loud when a demon is centralized around bluffing them)

[vapid escarp]

Yagga is a perfect confound for 3 minions and DA has 3 perfect confounds elsewhere

[fierce kestrel]

Yeah. On previous version 2.4 LoT won 5 of 11 recorded games, which I think you can find here.

(according to pinned message)

[still fern]

Typhon had an ~80% winrate for most of the script's history (exactly "until adding Mayor"), including e.g. a 12p game with 0 outsiders

[wheat karma]

The meta of CC as evil is to build worlds around yaggabable. I think most of the loses from newbies here is that they forgot that yagga exist.

[cursive pike]

then I think it's worth asking: what happened in those games that didn't happen in the games the Typhon lost?

ideally a script should have a 50/50 winrate between good and evil

if the best Demons have 45%, that's not as bad as my perception of Typhon with this combination of characters, but it's still below average

[still fern]

Typhon/DA is an incredibly busted combo and also is kind of the script premise so trying to build around that ends up being CS's achilles heel

(pre-Mayor almost every typhon game was a DA autowin)

[still fern]

All the demons are about 45% now. It's tricky. Most of this thread is Autumn going insane (affectionate) trying to find a good balance point for "the Typhon/DA script"

[cursive pike]

Alsaahir and Balloonist have a crazy winrate in comparison to most other characters, based on the number of games they've been in - that's probably what needs looking at

the script doesn't have enough droison for these roles to exist in my opinion, especially with Typhon

[still fern]

I have been talking about Alsaahir here forever yeah

The consensus version of 2.5 is Alsaahir -> Fisherman

[cursive pike]

I've not backread the conversation, so I don't know what's been brought up before

but I think for sure there needs to be a Poisoner, a Xaan, or something else that isn't Widow and can introduce misinfo

both for the sake of giving some cover to the Typhon and for the sake of town not immediately trusting every single piece of info they have

the ONLY sources of misinfo right now are PM and Widow, if there's no PM claim and no Widow ping claim, everyone is sober

and as discussed, the evil team can't claim a Widow ping with all loud Minions because that outs them as Typhon

[still fern]

Yeah all of this has been discussed a lot (though the widow thing is wrong because of yagga). It's really hard. Autumn is currently working on like 15 different 2.5 forks. The tricky thing is the minion she keeps trying to replace is Widow and fmpov that can't be replaced but all the others are even more core

There's an argument for replacing witch and it's what I'd probably go for but it makes yagga confounding typhon harder

(and yagga confounding typhon is loadbearing for the reasons you've identified)

assassin/gf being yagga simulated might be enough

[cursive pike]

I don't see a point in GF with all Outsiders being face-up, personally

not in general but with this combination of characters, if anything I would replace that

Assassin is a lot more flexible and already accomplishes what it's supposed to accomplish

I also think that Kazali is better than Vigor for the purposes of this script

[still fern]

The demon line is absolutely locked in

[wheat karma]

Im more inclined on the spy version. ST can justify calculated yagga kills. Its underrated interaction.

[still fern]

fmpov spy makes the issue worse

it's quieter misinfo but it's never misinfo that can obscure the demon

[cursive pike]

I like Spy better lol

but Spy absolutely requires more droison

[olive drift]

:)

[wheat karma]

The lack of droison is not a problem here PM have low WR. For as long as PM wont droison GM and maybe savant its hard to find the droison

[olive drift]

My next ersion will include spy

[cursive pike]

that's not my tell for requiring droison, my tell for requiring droison is that all the ongoing roles have high winrates

which means that the information they get is too strong if they know it can be trusted

[olive drift]

That isn't true though

[wheat karma]

I agree that CS is heavily more on social reads. That's why spy is here to fill those gaps.

[still fern]

I mean you're being told to add it conditional on adding Poisoner

[olive drift]

Savant and Town Crier don't have igh winrates

It might include spy

i don't want poisoner

[olive drift]

And vigormortis

[cursive pike]

yeah but the rest of them do, and TC on a Typhon script isn't helpful

[olive drift]

I do think the script is good sided

I'll keep what you said in mind though

[olive drift]

why?

This is still useful feedback

[wheat karma]

In theory. TC thrives in long games and TC is already dead after N3

[olive drift]

I'll look at the games, update the script, and consider it

[cursive pike]

there's an extra Minion

it's highly unlikely that TC gets a no

that's probably why TC has the lowest winrate

even without Typhon it's easy for a Minion to sneak in a nomination and throw themselves under the bus if it means they cover for their Demon (or their line)

*lowest out of all the ongoing TF, I know Grandmother is lower

on scripts with quick death and extra evils it's more useful to have roles that identify Demon candidates because executing Minions only helps if it's a DA

everything else is either expendable or somewhat expendable

[olive drift]

It's difficult, because all the demon finders have issues

Ah

I misunderstood what you said

yes it is more useful to have demon finders

Typhon does win on here

But it's always tough

[wheat karma]

mb i thought its other way around. Demon finders is difficult here since they don't move.

[olive drift]

Your demon line is locked in

I am still open to changing this script in radical ways

[olive drift]

Lord of Typhon is the only demon that's not shifting. I do want to make a Lord of Typhon BMR script

[olive drift]

Thank you for the feedback though. I think this script has a bit more to go

[cursive pike]

what's your objective overall? to have a LoT script with extra death? to have a LoT script with some loud Minions? to have a LoT script with execution protection? there can be different suggestions based on these choices

I'm assuming here that LoT is the core of the script because it was submitted for that competition iirc

[vapid escarp]

Seems to me like it's all of these

[cursive pike]

I get that but it's not currently working well for evil by mixing all those together 😆

in order to fix that, something has to go, so I'll give recommendations based on what Autumn wants to keep the most

[olive drift]

I want to make a lord of typhon script with a BMR feel

The main interaction is Lord of Typhon with Yaggababble, with Yaggababble being able to fake extra deaths

I have explored other alternatvies like Lord of Typhon Ojo

[shy spoke]

On a Lord of Typhon script, the winraes are always going to be incredibly swingy as so much is dependent on the seating and making a 50/50 non-homebrew script is awfully difficult and maybe even impossible.

[olive drift]

Lord of Typhon, Asassin and Godfather work well for this. There has been some experimentation with Lord of Typhon Ojo with no witch

[shy spoke]

55/45 is definitely a success in my eyes

[olive drift]

Well with these extra games, it's more like a 57/43

I do think this script is good sided

Evil wins here are hard earned

It's just difficult to make stuff fit

I am interested to hear a critical voice about the script. I'll also watch the games you've posted

Many players find their first plays of this script good sided in a lot of groups

I do want to talk about your suggestions Voidstarr

[dry oriole]

I'd think that this evil team was unbeatable but wtf

[lilac ridge]

It's a very a strong evil team yes, but all typhon lines are fragile and can be found rather easily if evil is careless

[olive drift]

There also is a lack of misinformation on this script

And not a lot of good townsfolk that can be fine in such a scenario

Most these Townsfolk are fine w lower misinfo games

But still can lead to issues

[dry oriole]

Add a Fibbin

[olive drift]

I'm sure there is a way to do it without arbritrary misinfo

[lilac ridge]

honestly I think the information landscape of the script is at a pretty good place at the moment

[dry oriole]

PD -> Drunk maybe

[olive drift]

I did have drunk on ages ago

But Drunk+Lord of Typhon is a bit iffy

Arbritrary Outsider count and a drunk that can go in and out of play depending on how the ST is feeling

[wheat karma]

Removing PD makes it difficult to run 7-9 games

[olive drift]

Plague Doctor is great here

Puzzlemaster->Drunk is what I thout you said

[cursive pike]

with this idea in mind I can give the following recommendations:

• add Alchemist, most of these roles are very good for an Alchemist to be and an additional Minion ability in play that may be good or may be evil can benefit Typhon lines to stay hidden too
• add Gossip, you can use it to make balancing decisions when a player needs to die
• remove one of Fool or Pacifist, I think one is enough (I like Tea Lady for neighbour confirmation and also works well with Typhon DA)
• replace Puzzlemaster with Drunk, which is harder to identify (Puzzlemaster drunks require the Puzzlemaster to be in play, Drunk can always be in play)
• replace Widow with Spy, which benefits from being quieter
• replace Godfather with Xaan, which gives you Outsider modification and droison in one package

for Outsider count you also have Balloonist that can give you a +1 when desired so I think two characters plus the Demons are enough

[cloud thistle]

I don’t quite get these proposed changes

[olive drift]

I can go through them 1 by 1

• Alchemist is OK. Alchemist Godfather is obscenely strong. Alchemist DA is OK if you run it as a "if you pick evil, let the alchemist repick" in the later game. Alchemist assassin is a fine slayer sidegrade. Alchemist Witch is fine. Alchemist Widow isn't great. However, with your later changes, I'm not sure if its that great. Alchemist Xaan is useless. Alchemist Spy is OK if you want to get rid of spy misreg worlds. This one is OK.

• Gossip does not combo well with Yaggababble. Yaggababble already makes trying to solve stuff off of kills more difficult. Gossip Yaggababble makes it impossible. This combination can make playing Gossip more frustrating than BMR.

• I can get behind this, but I like giving the DA a variety of bluffs to fall back on.

• I get your thinking with Puzzlemaster v Drunk, and in the earliest versions of the script, there is a Drunk. The main issue with Drunk is that in Typhon games, where the Outsider count is arbritrary, Drunk can make this script much more difficult to solve than usual, as you cannot solve drunk from Outsider count. Especially with your later proposed changes of adding Xaan, figuring out if there's a Drunk in play is very difficult. Compare this to Trouble Brewing, where you have stuff like Librarian, Undertaker and the predictable Outsider modification of Baron to identify the Drunk.

• I am strongly considering Widow with Spy. THe main issue with just this change is that it doesn't interact much with Knight, but I am already thinking about a version w this.

• Godfather w Xaan is interesting. I think taking away any of the death mod risks making Yaggababble much more obvious. Lord of Typhon worlds off deaths alone can never be distinguished from Yaggababble worlds, but a Yaggababble can kill faster than is possible than LoT. This is it's own issue.

I do want to go through the strengths of the ideas though.

[olive drift]

Which characters do you have in mind with Alchemist as being 'very good'

Assassin, Witch and Spy?

[cursive pike]

the suggestions don't have to be taken as a package, to be clear

[olive drift]

Ok

[cursive pike]

I think if you already go for Spy and Xaan the script will be significantly improved

[olive drift]

That wasn't clear but ok

Thanks for clarifying

[cursive pike]

two silent Minions remove the need for an Alchemist (which I suggested to address the Typhon Minion visibility issue)

[cloud thistle]

I think this script kind of really wants Godfather as a confound for Yaggababble

[sand mulch]

(whch STILL doesnt exist for the record)

[cursive pike]

it does, as evidenced in the games I linked

[cloud thistle]

The minions are effectively silent because the Demons/Townsfolk obscure them

[olive drift]

To be fair Voidstarr

[sand mulch]

witch, assassin, and GF are not loud when there is a yaggababble on script

[cursive pike]

I don't know how the other games went, but in the ones I ran, multiple loud Minions outing the Typhon was a very glaring problem for the evil team

[cloud thistle]

I have played this script

[olive drift]

These are 2 games out of like 30 that we ran before

Of V2.4

[cursive pike]

sure but that shouldn't be an issue in any game, because if your Minion abilities are outing you, they're not doing what they're supposed to do - which is to help the evil team

I've never played any script in which Minion abilities being loud became so bad for the Demon, is my point

and in which using those abilities actively prevented the evil team from bluffing something related to other Minion abilities being in play

so if your focus is the BMR experience, what I recommend is to make the Minions more silent - or at least some of them

[sand mulch]

how did the players rule out yaggababble?

[cursive pike]

you can watch the video to see how it played out, I don't remember the details

but basically there were so many kills on N2 that Yag was impossible

[olive drift]

that's... an interesting conclusion for players to make

[cursive pike]

town immediately worked out GF + Assassin + Demon + something else (Grandmother I think)

there were 4 deaths

[olive drift]

But... why can't those deaths be like

2 from demon, 1 from assassin+grandmother?

[cursive pike]

again I don't remember what exactly ruled that out

[olive drift]

That's cool

Which game was this

[cursive pike]

I provided you with the source, if you're curious you can check it, I just don't have the patience to go through an hour and a half of content again 😆

[olive drift]

This is the upside of you recording games

Yup

[cursive pike]

yep

let me check

[olive drift]

The savant game

Or the savant bluff game?

[sand mulch]

its the second game

[olive drift]

Epic cool

ty

[cursive pike]

Moonchild is a Townsfolk

so yes the second

[olive drift]

lol

Moonchild is a Townsfolk

[cursive pike]

oh yeah the Amnesiac-Moonchild led to the nail in the coffin of the evil team

but they were cooked regardless

for non-Amnesiac reasons

[sand mulch]

the something else was moonchild

[olive drift]

I could definitely see Moonchild being too much

[cursive pike]

if the statistics are faithful then yeah probably

maybe try Barber? Typhon lines like Barber

they can shift the boss to the sidelines

[olive drift]

A big part of this script is that the demons are static

Like on BMR

Something like barber means Knight comes off

[cursive pike]

then I think just leave it for now and see what happens with whichever of my or other people's suggested changes

you keep stats of each version right?

[olive drift]

Yes

CUrrently moving into 2.5

But your suggestions and your experiences is convincing me that I might need larger changes again

[sand mulch]

okay after reviewing the footage, town just didnt consider yagga

they like, did not realize yagga was on the script

[olive drift]

That is a bit strange

But also another thing is that you did have 3 players in a row

Like 3 living players

Town often executes into lines like that to mitigate LoT

No matter the demon

Nah

They do mention Yagg

[sand mulch]

when?

[olive drift]

At least in public chat

tbf

[sand mulch]

oh i havent been reading that

[olive drift]

It is the Godfather of the Typhon line mentioning it

This script isn't perfect

I want to make this as good as possible

[cursive pike]

good scripts take a lot of work! and you chose a difficult character tbh 😆

Typhon is an awkward Demon

[olive drift]

It is.

I will take a look at the games more closely

Is moonchild perhaps an issue

It was made to be strong against Typhon

And is a great yagg Yagg bluff

Pff

Ah Moonchild chose daft lol

yeah it's OVER

[sand mulch]

yea, and it sounds like no one took the one yagga mention seriously

so it basically turned into LoT line in upper right or bottom left?

[olive drift]

Ah

Perhaps that Town Crier 'No' was also huge

Lucky, Velvet, Greenbb, Umby, Sandwitch Dmitry all not Minions

[sand mulch]

yikes

[olive drift]

That's the two people at the end of the Typhon nominating

I think no minions nominating D1 was what really lost the game there

no wonder that Typhon world looks so tempting

That's the only one that exists from the TC PoV

Ok, very nice very nice

Thanks for recording these games

[cursive pike]

for context the kill was bounced so that any good player being chosen could help Typhon win through DA protection - town already wanted to tap Daft at that point

[olive drift]

Very interesting

[cursive pike]

and if the presence of a DA had been outed evil would have lost anyway

because town was already convinced two other Minions existed

the way this specific game ended was what made me want to come here and post my original comment lol

[olive drift]

Yeah of course

I am aware of the lack of misinformation on the script

[cursive pike]

we also had a postgame session in my server commenting the script, and the players (both good and evil) agreed that the loudness of the Minions was part of the downfall of evil

[olive drift]

It's a difficult beast to change

Looking at these games, I think it's more the lack of misinformation

[cursive pike]

most welcome! I record the vast majority of games I play or run so I'm happy to provide further data on your scripts if they get run again

[olive drift]

That Town Crier 'no' is incredibly damning

[cursive pike]

actually if you're interested, I do also have a Yag game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp4wu9DIC18

evil won that

that's all the samples I've got

[olive drift]

how funny

So yes, this group definitely knows that yagg's on this script

[cursive pike]

they definitely did, because this game was chronologically first 😆

[olive drift]

yeah

[cursive pike]

and we played the two Typhon games immediately after

[olive drift]

Hmm

I think Spy is a good fit on here, and with Spy I would take off Savant

I could consider alchemist

A big gimmick with Amnesiac on this script is that it is also there to hide minions

Abilities I've run have included

"Good players you nominate cannot die until dawn."

"Each night, choose 2 players: the 1st Minion you chose that nominates dies."

Amnesaic can be used as a bluff to cover up extra Minions

As an example for the type of thing that might be considered

Oh yes also, another thing about Xaan

I did run a Xaan version of the script... I didn't like it as much as I thought I would

We have 2 tea lady protections D1 and D2, so they ruled out Xaan from that

[gleaming monolith]

There not much misinfo on this script though

[rugged kiln]

Yeah I feel like Xaan doesn't work amazingly on scripts with science

[white meadow]

yeah or just any sort of mechanical confirmation

[olive drift]

Yup

Spy messes with a whole lot tbh

I think it messes w more things than Widow

[cloud thistle]

Spy messes with Tea Lady so hard lol

[white meadow]

Spy misreg making Tea Lady think they were poisoned...

(ik poisoner is not on script)

[vapid escarp]

It does the opposite??

[white meadow]

no. the spy registering as good for a couple of days

and then later registering as evil

sorry if it wasn't clear

[olive drift]

I don't think that's a bad thing

[terse sleet]

omg... 5879 comments 😐 .. what is this script?

[white meadow]

Its the unofficial Typhon home script

At least according to quite a few people on this server

[terse sleet]

@white meadow Thank you!

[sick gust]

Gave +1 Thanks to @white meadow (current: #2723 - 1)

[vapid escarp]

Yeah and autumn keeps trying to mess it up with spy /lh

[olive drift]

With all seriousness, I might try something a bit more transformative for 2.6

[quick pier]

add legion

[olive drift]

no

[white meadow]

Add wizard 👀

[lucid vault]

add innkeeper

[vapid escarp]

add lord of typhon

[olive drift]

no

NO

ok Hystrex this is the only opinion I will listen to

[vapid escarp]

It's because I always have the best takes 😇

[gleaming monolith]

Add pukka

[olive drift]

no

[white meadow]

Add lleech

[olive drift]

no

[vapid escarp]

add yaggababble

[white meadow]

is Hystrex just going to list the optimal script one character at a time?

[olive drift]

no because he won't include spy

[vapid escarp]

I WILL NOT

[olive drift]

hey hey it won't hurt i promise

the script will be so good that Hystrex's life will be transformed

[vapid escarp]

I'm far more on board with xaan than spy but xaan is still not the greatest combo with science

[vapid escarp]

I sure hope so

[olive drift]

Xaan+Science I tried one game of and realised that... yeah it may be not that great

Spy+Science is better IMO

[vapid escarp]

Idk I think both are bad

[olive drift]

then we add alchemst

[vapid escarp]

😭

[olive drift]

I think Spy at least can prove the sciencer

China Shop 2.6 will be revolutionary

in that it will include the revolutionary

[vapid escarp]

Right but have you considered that denying town an execution on an evil player is harmful to town actually

[olive drift]

yes?

[vapid escarp]

Tea lady townsider :(

(tbf I've seen much worse tea lady townsiders)

[olive drift]

I have also considered that showing the Undertaker the Washerwoman when in fact the Spy was executed is harmful to town

Undertaker townsider :(

[olive drift]

(they were all lleech scripts)

[vapid escarp]

Oh I was thinking drunk + fang gu but that's a much easier example

[vapid escarp]

These feel fundamentally different to me and I'm trying to articulate why

Man I need to make a wall on exe survival already

[olive drift]

The one which is the most iffy is "Pacifist saving the Spy. Why is the pacifist ability used to harm good???"

My take is... that's the whole point of Spy. Spy is supposed to look good from other character's abilities.

[vapid escarp]

Oh TL is just more clean cut that's why I default to it as an example

But they're not very different in that sense

[vapid escarp]

This is true!! And if you have spy and e.g. TL in the same bag then yeah I'd support that ST decision!! However consider the fact that in many reasonable 7p cases you're left with only one execution after double tapping

You gotta at least confirm the "townsfolk"'s info

[vapid escarp]

Honestly I could see some 9p games with a spy and 3 exes total

Double tapping e.g. the savant should be huge because now we know they're not an evil player lying

[rugged kiln]

Idk, it still eliminates a lot of demon candidates

[vapid escarp]

That, on top of confirming 2 players as players we never have to execute ever again, is pretty worth the 2 executions

[vapid escarp]

Paci only eliminates 2, if one might be evil I'd rather them both just be dead

[vapid escarp]

If the savant can actually be the spy and we can't rely on the info to be true or droisoned, why did we spend 2 executions

Now tbf I'm assuming a double tap

Single taps are kinda weak tho

((especially with a spy))

[olive drift]

I think the reason is that it does confirm 2 players as non-demons, and 3 if you include the tea lady itself

That does leave 2/3 players in final 4/5 as demon candiates

[wheat karma]

In reality Tea lady is already dead N2 with spy games, its better than having another round of comfirmation. There's a fisherman that can support the tea lady

[olive drift]

This part of it, as you correctly said, is compromised

[olive drift]

This part of it isn't

The Demon cannot move on this script, so yes, there isn't a good reason to execute them. A Spy cannot protect the demon like the DA either.

[vapid escarp]

Right, and I think that's a big enough difference to really matter

[olive drift]

I think it does matter yes, in both evil's bluffing and worldbuilding

[vapid escarp]

Also spy misreg is incredibly out of place in a yagga game I'm gonna be so real

It makes sense in typhon bc the line seems broken

[olive drift]

elaborate

Spy misreg is out of place in a yagga game?

[wheat karma]

ST can simulate spy kills in yagga game

[vapid escarp]

Vigor... I guess it contributes to The Vigor Thing, it's not ideal but good votes are evil votes when they're voting with you so it's maybe fine

[olive drift]

Vigor at least has spy being a potential grandchild which is fun

[vapid escarp]

Spy misreg is usually out of place. Minions generally want to get executed, to the extent that it means their demon isn't being executed. So what's the benefit in being mechanically good??

On TB you can always get starpassed

LoT as I've mentioned does actually want spy, I'm happy to expand though I would guess you already understand

Vigor is One Of The Demons Ever, I'll let it pass

[olive drift]

The main thing for Yaggababble, and other demons, is that Spy executions leading to Godfather kills can provide cover for Yaggababble.

[vapid escarp]

But spy misreg often shoots itself in the foot

[vapid escarp]

I guess? But then do you not misreg the spy while they're alive?

[olive drift]

I will register the spy as whatever I think is most useful to the evil team

And also depending on what evil want

Within reason

If the Spy wants to convert its death into a GF kill, then that might work ok

[vapid escarp]

Right, my point is that the answer is usually to register them as evil (in yagga and sometimes vigor)

[vapid escarp]

Yeah I mean I have no problem with that

[olive drift]

Yes

That happens on Trouble Brewing too

[vapid escarp]

🤨

[olive drift]

I've had games where the Spy has consistently sat next to the Empath, so I used it's varying misregistration to make the Empath 0 go to 1 as the other side of the empath pings die

[vapid escarp]

Oh I mean that still makes the spy look good