Shenanigans & Virtuosity

[south lion]

the idea for this was "S&V shenanigans, but even more". pops off here i think

my biggest question marks are inkeeper and fang gu

inkeeper making people drunk isn't my favorite here but i wanted more night protection

fang gu + mez is a great example of "spirit of ivory sucks actually" but i needed some positive outsider mod and id rather not have a sentinel

is a demon that's literally just 'each night* kill a player [+1 to +2 outsiders]' too boring

also, it would take a lot of convincing to get me to change any of the minions. they're the stars of this script

(i like mez over fang gu by a mile on this script)

[south lion]

btw the reason i want more night protection is because on s&v it's just or the demon is dead and is keeping the game going (or the demon sank the kill). that's fine and all but what if there was a good team explanation for it, now we can have more shenanigans

im also slightly worried this script is too evil sided if the evil team simply coordinates

[kindred carbon]

• fang gu + mez + spirit of ivory is super sad
• innkeeper feels oddly placed here? there aren't that many deaths to guard against
• barber + hatter feels redundant

[kindred carbon]

so innkeeper is an outsider here? :(

you already have monk here

maybe swap ET for Baron, Fang Gu for Imp, and swap one of barber/hatter out for something that also wants to stay hidden (damsel?)

[south lion]

I like how most of that is things I know I need to address lol

[south lion]

... yeah ok it probably is

Also barber and hatter are different characters. I don't intend to run mad hatter on this

[south lion]

Twin shenanigans are a huge part of why I wanted to make this script in the first place, and imp feels weak with

With your changes imp is better but I disagree with the surrounding stuff lol

Baron would be nice but I don't wanna swap anything out really. All the minions are essential in my eyes

If something had to go it would be cerenovus, but also the script was very much made with cerenovus in mind

Plus I'd have to replace mutant

I'm trying to decide how opposed I am to just having 6 minions on the script and calling it a day

Because that WOULD fix the problem

[south lion]

Also :(

[south lion]

i remembered this script existed a bit ago and wanted to touch it up

positive outsider mod is the only thing left that i know might be a problem, but balloonist isn't the worst thing out there, and they have a widow, drunk, and vigor, all of which help

[vast cedar]

Consider Kazali

Kazali is a positive outsider mod demon that fits on most scripts

Wait never mind

Kazali doesn't play well with Pit-Hag and other demons

[south lion]

Yeah

I also just don't like kazali as a character, choosing your evil team can be toxic in some cases

I did genuinely consider it though despite that, minions getting a free bluff and positive outsider mod are both things that fit here

I ended up going with no dashii instead because it's pretty ok here. I don't LOVE it considering there's also widow and Drunk, but I don't hate it either

[vast cedar]

I don't love Vigor here

It just doesn't do much with a lot of these

[south lion]

I strongly disagree

Pithag and cerenovus are excellent vigor kills, I don't think that's what you were referring to

Widow can lock in a poison for the whole game which is nice but maybe not the best in the world

Mez can safely hold its word until final 5 where it's most powerful

[vast cedar]

With Widow, I'd rather kill the poisoned target after the Widow dies than lose an evil player and a night kill

[south lion]

Reasonable

Widow is meant as something to be cycled out of a lot of the time on this script anyway

Get the grim and get out lol

It can also make a hatter bluff look super believable by sending out the ping mid game

[vast cedar]

I think this script feels built assuming the Pit-Hag is in play more often than it actually is

As such, I might want to remove Evil Twin to bring the minion count down to four

[south lion]

That's why there's a hatter lol

I do think evil teams can be perfectly effective without a pithag tho

[vast cedar]

In a 1 or 0 Outsider game as a Vigormortis, I'd feel very bad if my team didn't have a Cerenovus or Pit-Hag

Hatter is also somewhat worse with Vigor because you can't change or move the demon if you've already buried a minion

[proud fable]

no i agree with vigor here

every minion has a reason to be killed

[vast cedar]

I think it's still a very weak play to be killing s confirmed ET or a holding Mezepheles on a script with a town this powerful

[south lion]

The town is powerful because the evil team is powerful

And vigor is part of why the evil team is powerful

I agree it's not the strongest demon but it's still reasonably powerful

Btw I'm probably swapping for , someone pointed out that cm is a lot more interesting when there are variable waking patterns and I agree

[proud fable]

Vigor means you can safely kill the good twin if you’re worried about their ability or other stuff

tf are the town going to do

execute the other twin?

[south lion]

Even if you're some other demon! Provided they can't tell

[proud fable]

exactly

[south lion]

forgot to send these but it's just the one change

[earnest jasper]

Looks like a really solid script 😌 And honestly it would become a matter of playtesting and seeing what feels nice

[south lion]

Ty :D and yeah I wanna playtest it now if I can

[south lion]

just played this in pickup! notes:

• no dashii opens up way too many worlds. probably swapping for imp? i didnt want imp because it kinda overlaps with pithag but honestly evil is already powerful enough
• i think even without a no dashii, evil is probably too strong. the mez never got their word off but good still only won after a snake charm
• glad it made it to f3 tho
• shenanigans most certainly did happen

[south lion]

ok so i really wanna make mez work

i can ditch hatter if that's needed

[brave mist]

How often does good win by these weird shennigan wins

[south lion]

this has been played twice, 1 good win 1 evil win

the evil team kinda did it to themselves this game tho

[kindred carbon]

tbh? i think you kinda have to choose between PH/hatter and Mez here.

Because what can end up happening (and what I've seen from similarly complex scripts like text revos, nexus can attest to this) is that either evil gets a bag where they get their funny mobility and mez turn, or they don't and feel cheated out of the potential they could've had

[south lion]

it's also worth noting that (iirc) both games had a starting pithag and hatter

[south lion]

hatter was my attempt at solving this, but maybe it's not a great way to do that :(

[brave mist]

for sure! like I think evil had a lot of fun with pithag and mez and hatter and all that in this game, but imagine evil has a bag of widow pithag imp right? personally, i think hatter should stay on the script because it's a nice balance to a weaker bag, just add hatter! I think if you are 100% locked in onto keeping Mez, you should do what you feel, but if you're not, I think ditching mez or creating two versions a Mez and Mez not version would be helpful to see how things play out!

[south lion]

a version without mez would probably be fun but imo just play snv at that point

[brave mist]

also i think evil shennigans are at a max with this script, but good shenanigans are kinda low which is why banshee is great for a change!

[south lion]

im on board with banshee

what other good shenanigans are available

[kindred carbon]

here's a brainstorm that might be worth considering:

chef --> clock/shugenja, chef in vortox is kinda sad esp with this powerful of an evil team
farmer --> banshee/sage, evil farmer is funny yes but the juice isn't worth the squeeze for either team when a farmer procs + widow is onscript so it can just not happen

drunk --> something else: maybe recluse? recluse + fg/tc isn't that fun tho but recluse + vigor goes hard

mez --> godfather? nexus didn't like it but he is always wrong about everything ever so do not listen to him. you need positive outsider mod here anyway

ET is funny but you might consider just dropping it, it's another one of those PH/hatter sponges like Mez

[brave mist]

id disagree! this script is a far more chaotic version of snv!

[brave mist]

I don't like godfather due to pithag change, but if you cut pithag SURE! if not, I suggest baron!!

[brave mist]

if you want less snv for ET, maybe consider boomdandy? i think evil will have a lot of fun with a boomdandy role always!

quick question: what is it that you want to keep about the mez? is it the extra evil?

[south lion]

chef was deliberately chosen as a 'universal game state' ysk (instead of shugenja where it's player-dependent or ww where there are many possible correct pieces of info), but clock is the other role like that and it could work

(there are some barber plays/bluffs that need that)

[south lion]

i was thinking just have both farmer and banshee tbh

[kindred carbon]

the thing is baron/hatter and baron/ph is kinda feelsbad in that the baron will always want to be changed out

you basically get a free 3rd minion ability

it's a similar problem to ET except more pressing because the ET actually has an ability past setup

[south lion]

what's the problem with drunk here? and recluse has some bad interactions

[south lion]

positive outsider mod is nice but why on earth is godfather your pick lol

[kindred carbon]

You've got two sources of negative outsider mod (vigor and drunk) and half a source of positive outsider mod (if we're being generous to balloonist)

[south lion]

i wanna see an ET game happen at least before dropping it, i like it here too much

[kindred carbon]

it might be too much - i'd suggest PM but PM/Vortox is funky

since there's like nothing to puzzledrunk

[brave mist]

try it and see how you like it!

though having two die at night roles is tough 😦

[south lion]

boomdandy... hadn't considered that 👀 it'll totally change the script dynamic but maybe thats not a bad thing

[brave mist]

but also can be great

[south lion]

TB has 3, im not worried

[brave mist]

that's fair!!

[brave mist]

also fair!

[south lion]

imo this is the bare minimum. i wouldnt mind some real positive mod but in base 1 or base 2 games it works fine as is

i also dont want fang gu here for a lot of reasons

[brave mist]

oh yeah fang gu makes this script hell, good call!

[south lion]

yeahhhh not a fan

[south lion]

the extra evil, and the synergy with pithag and widow

at some point in the game i realized BH would be similar, but that role is super swingy and i especially dont like it with vortox

[kindred carbon]

All of the base 3 have less and it works fine

I’d think about a Sentinel and drop Drunk if you don’t want a GF?

[brave mist]

was going to suggest this

[south lion]

I meant bare minimum positive mod. And the excess negative mod makes up for it

There haven't been outsider count issues so far (though it's only been 12p)

[south lion]

I might try to build something with that and see what happens

[south lion]

how do i make town stronger than this lol

im doing a mez version and a BH version

idk what else im supposed to do to the mez version

the good team needs to stop having a skill issue

???

what if i just added a duchess or smth? most of the feedback i got was about balance, but people still def seemed to have fun with it

[kindred carbon]

i think the mez just fundamentally doesn't really play nice with ph/hatter for the same reason as baron

it'll get its ability off and then get turned into something else, and you basically just have 3 minion abilities this game

[south lion]

I haven't played with BH much, how easy is it for the evil TF to coordinate with their team (without a grimpeeker)?

[vast cedar]

Medium

Not voting on the demon is pretty doable but something like getting Hagged into a minion is tougher

[patent tapir]

I don't like BH with vortox personally

[kindred carbon]

I think it's a fine interaction

It's harsh for the BH but it's not the worst thing ever

[south lion]

yeah, id rather avoid it but without homebrew the only other option is mez

i dont want goon or ogre or poli for example

[kindred carbon]

BH-Vortox is on Poppyganda and that script works fine

[south lion]

Ok I actually really love here, but it's not great with

Oh isn't it unwinnable if the good twin holds it?

Goblin ruling, I guess

[south lion]

Banshee's the only one that I'm heavily questioning

[vast cedar]

just kill the evil twin and then the good twin

[south lion]

Oh hey that does work

[south lion]

-json

[south lion]

!json

[fresh mauve]

SHENANIGANS & VIRTUOSITY ST SPITE OE Nory

[{"id":"_meta","author":"","name":"SHENANIGANS & VIRTUOSITY ST SPITE OE Nory"},"clockmaker","bounty_hunter","empath","dreamer","snake_charmer","balloonist","town_crier","oracle","savant","juggler","artist","philosopher","banshee","mutant","drunk","barber","hatter","widow","cerenovus","pit-hag","evil_twin","lil_monsta","imp","vortox","vigormortis"]

[brave mist]

woah thats so cool

[south lion]

It lost the poll by 1 vote lol

I had the game solved and lost to a cannibal-damsel 🫠

[brave mist]

oof

[south lion]

3 evils alive this game

played the BH version, no BH in play

hatter is just devastating. i think i gotta take out one of hatter or drunk

[south lion]

this is the version we played today for the record

[tardy rover]

fun to ST and i think players had fun too!
felt kinda evil sided even with no starting pithag & some strong tf roles & balloonist [+0] , maybe outsiders were too damaging & pithag can ensure all 4 inplay by the end, maybe could use 'weaker' outsiders & a demonfinder besides snake ( FG/FT )
also BH and Widow was a rough combination i had to be cognicent of (Widow obviously poisons BH but evil Townsfolk remains bc it's setup brackets & Widow would know who the evil TF is)

[south lion]

better json

[south lion]

Couldn't respond to this until now. You make a good point with widow/BH, and that really sucks because BH's role was partly to create that extra evil, and widow's role was partly to see who that was. So that sucks. I don't like FT vortox, but maybe I should take off LM to justify FG. And/or maybe I find a way to make mez work. Or something. I'll have to think it over

I do wanna see a game without a hatter tho lol

[tardy rover]

yea i mean BH Widow is probably ok but its already a bit evil sided and that combo specifically is rough for good bc BH alwayssss gets widow-poisoned

[tardy rover]

yea i wasnt aware of the playtesting history lol

just put in some fun outsiders

[south lion]

Ur good

[brave mist]

slayer?

[brave mist]

also i think you're getting to there so congrats!!

a weaker drunk is PM imo? cuz its more traceable
hatter might be too strong so maybe plaguedoctor?

[kindred carbon]

pm
weaker

this is why you're always wrong nexus smh

drunk is -1 tf, pm is like -1.5

[brave mist]

its traceable + can solve the game

soooo

[south lion]

They're simply different

[limpid rock]

Seen in the official app 👀

[south lion]

👀👀👀👀👀

[limpid rock]

I didn't watch the whole game but I did catch the ending grim so I'm assuming evil won

I know this is an earlier version though

[south lion]

Oh wow nice :D

[south lion]

Meh, I think I prefer the mez version

[mighty trench]

oh yeah i was the st in that game i really like this script

[south lion]

Oh wow ty!!!!

[limpid rock]

it's being run again in spanish btw

I can't speak spanish so I can't spec but I figured you'd like to know this

[south lion]

Oh wow

Cool, ty

[sonic rose]

What's the recommended version of this?

Or what's the most updated version?

[south lion]

At the moment, this one

I wanna revisit it tho

[south lion]

Why do you ask 👀👀👀

[deep wigeon]

it gets it's ability off....

and then some other minion becomes a mez and +2 evils

or mez gets out of play

[sonic rose]

Looking for good scripts to print out for in person games

Is it chaos hatter btw?

[south lion]

No

Normal hatter

PLEASE normal hatter

It's already evil sided enough

[bleak rampart]

just ran a game of this where the mez and their turn faked twins while there were real twins

it caused enough confusion that the real good twin got executed

[south lion]

Oh incredible

Still waiting for the day where good wins on this script without starpassing when no minions are alive

[south lion]

rewrite time

[bleak rampart]

wild

multiple wizard wishes with barber could be dangerous

[kindred carbon]

boffin balloonist as positive outsider mod is funny

[bleak rampart]

also sage LM is very sad times

[sonic rose]

Only as dangerous as the ST makes it

[south lion]

Yeah this is a relatively rough draft

I can prob take off sage

[sonic rose]

Clockmaker + summoner is not the best imo

YSK that it's a summoner game

[south lion]

I had chef on originally

But I think I like clock better?

Idk, I could go either way

I think "ysk it's a summoner game" is an okay dynamic and a fun bluff

-# also I feel bad for the clockmaker always being fed to the vortox

[bleak rampart]

i agree with this

especially because it allows for drunk CM to learn something n3 in a non summoner game

[south lion]

Ooh wait how does that intact with vortox

It probably doesn't right

Clock still has to learn a number in a vortox game?

[bleak rampart]

yeah unfortunately it doesn’t interact

[south lion]

I'm fine with that tho

[amber kestrel]

New jinxes kind of fuck up this a bit

[south lion]

A bit yeah

I might come back to this eventually