Friendly Invitations

[quaint cloud]

Friendly Invitations is a script based around having reasons to talk to people, reasons for everyone to seek each others perspectives out, and for reasons to bluff in a half-truthful way.

The good team leads with Steward, Highpriestess, General, and Fisherman. Roles that direct people towards good players, the state of the game, and where the good team should go.

The outsiders all are in search of their own players, butler for a good selection, ogre for their player, Mutant for a bluff to claim, and Recluse requires the group to extent trust despite suspicion.

Minions disrupt claiming and require communication to solve. Is it a Xaan game? What if there's a hidden mutant, what if the butler is ceremad? Is the player I steward saw really good, or are they secretly the spy?

Demons force players to question their neighbors, question their information, and question if they should trust that n2 farmer pass. They allow evil to fit into their own social bluffs while spreading misinformation.

Current Version: #1229250657530150992 message
Botcscripts Link

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1229250657530150992/1507947443109499042/Friendly_Invitations-1.png?ex=6a13c0fe&is=6a126f7e&hm=3b142b467a2392764d3d3856f6aff9db9ff00d7d8cbb58b99bb89595d02cb6a2&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[coral raft]

Why the sentinel? Baron + 4 quiet outsiders (including a drunk!!) is plenty of outsider mod

[quaint cloud]

sentinel is meant to be removed lol I just forgot

[coral raft]

Ah ok

[quaint cloud]

• 

[coral raft]

Wait why

How do you get a second

Oh hatter?

[quaint cloud]

Yeah it is possible to get two mez turns which is 😵‍💫

[coral raft]

Yeah 👌 that's reasonable then

How do marionette and hatter interact again

Does the Mario just learn and do nothing

Or do they choose??

Besides that and the presence of both RK and farmer (as in, idk why both are needed) it seems like a great script

If I had to pick I'd keep farmer over RK

[quaint cloud]

the mario would wake I believe

[coral raft]

Ok then ojo hatter marionette is super powerful to put in a bag together

Not game breaking tho

Just kill the hatter n2

[quaint cloud]

Hatter needs to be in play, if not then ojo misses, so it's okay

[coral raft]

That's true

And part of why it's not game breaking

[quaint cloud]

baron + ojo is pretty damn strong

due damsel + lunatic causing evil to know the outsider comp most of the time

[undone thistle]

I really like this script from just scanning it. If in playtesting it seems a bit evil favored I'd probably change NWM or magician for something more powerful

[simple fable]

How do we feel Magician plays into Ojo?

[undone thistle]

Fine, imo Ojo picking magician does more harm to the evil team than letting them live

Not so much this particular script perhaps due to the spread of roles, but it still applies here

[coral raft]

I mean if the magician dies n2 it's nearly confirmed ojo

[undone thistle]

Yeah lol

[stable trail]

A couple things, I think nodashii and magician is a bit sad as if one of the "minions" is sat next to the demon they can't be the magician, which causes the whole thing to fall apart immediately

And second I'm not big on nodashii baron either cause it means there's very few sober townsfolk and it's very hard to pin down the nodashii

I mean nightwatchman is strong

And yeah I don't love hatter with baron and marionette

[stable trail]

Especially with drunk too it gets messy

[coral raft]

Personally I think that makes the demon more interesting

And drunk looks a lot like no dashii poison so I'm not worried about that at all

Mario malfunction can look like it too

I agree on magician tho

[quaint cloud]

No dashii baron can be quite crippling

Although I follow the golden rule of “just don’t make the bag unbalanced L”

Also it is important to note the script is solely designed and focused for text games

Which, doesn’t change most of the notes about the script so far but some options are not options in text

I think hatter is super strong here, but only mainly with baron

Mario hatter isn’t getting they much of a step up

Baron hatter is insane

[undone thistle]

I mean, given the limited sources of droisoning, I don't think no dashii baron is too terrible because it makes the no dashii way more trackable, unless it's base 2 outsider count and you run chaos hatter instead of normal hatter

I do agree the magician interaction with no dashii is sad

[quaint cloud]

No it’s definitely very strong, and it does not make it more trackable, but less, since there’s more outsiders

I’m fine with the nodashii magician interaction as that would be hashed out during grim making for text games

[undone thistle]

How? Hatter and damsel only hide until they die, so most final 3 situations will not include them. If your ability malfunctions there are only a couple reasons:
No dashii poison, you're the drunk, you're the marionette (and haven't been told your evil), you're an extra village idiot, or you're a cannibal who ate an evil player.
Two of those are character dependent, one of which is timing based, and one is the same alignment as said no dashii with its own positional tell. Like yeah, NWM and Magician are pretty impossible to tell if you've been No Dashii poisoned, but most of these townsfolk won't have too tough of a time figuring out they're poisoned
Like I don't understand how adding outsiders makes it less trackable, I could accept an argument that it makes it equally trackable

Like with those few options, the worlds with no dashii are kinda limited

[stable trail]

with more outsiders, if you figure out you are nodashii poisoned, there's more places the nodashii can be

[undone thistle]

During the mid-game? Yes. Because the outsiders will be hiding
During final 3? No, you'll have all the outsider claims and the no dashii has the same space to work in. If people are double claiming outsiders then they're just evil at that point and it doesn't matter because No Dashii skips minions and outsiders the same, which is also why it doesn't help the non-baron bluffing space for evil (in No Dashii games) like in TB

[stable trail]

the nd might be bluffing outsider

you don't know

that's the point

you either have an nd bluffing outsider or a real outsider who the poison is jumping over

[quaint cloud]

it's also that there are 4 townsfolk from the average that are not getting sober healthy info/abilities

-2 from baron, -2 from nodashii, that is just strong

I also don't really care about the debate of if it makes it more or less trackable, I'd like to keep it to the script discussion please

[stable trail]

Actually the main thing I dislike about marionette hatter is that it confirms the marionettes alignment

[undone thistle]

Okay then I'll stop and just say watch for it in playtesting, you'll see it's not that difficult to track given this script composition (assuming you play fair, no dashii poisoned neighbors aren't supposed to get sober info all game even though you can do that)

[fossil flax]

Just ran this script in live! Here are some thoughts after discussing with a couple of the players:

• Insanely fun as a social script, relatively low-info but HP/Fish/General can help town piece it together
• Mezepheles is very very strong (potentially too strong with Hatter?)
• • Starting Baron who turns into Mezepheles is basically having an extra Minion in play that's potentially untraceable because the info is dead
• Squidbaron + (almost invisible) Baron is potentially too strong for evil, worth looking into. ND Drunk feels scary
• Farmer and RK go hard on this script
• (five-star) General is extremely strong on this script and is a good fit (maybe that's me being biased but there's so much to pick up on here)
• Love NWM here on this script, potentially funny with Mezepheles. No notes

Potential changes from me and Kuro after post-game discussion:

• -Village Idiot +Oracle
• • VIs this game felt like they didn't really matter much; they got easily framed by the turned FT and weren't really able to defend themselves when two got executed. Oracle has a fun interation with Imp and SW + fun with Marionette and ND. It can clear/help frame Farmers/RKs depending on if the Oracle is real or not which is also fun
• -Mezepheles +Butler
• • Mezepheles Hatter is super super strong and it's hard to trace a lategame turn. Mechanically the only things that can really detect it are VI and (kinda) General/HP. Butler is a visible outsider that can give good a clue as to the Outsider count, is fun with the Cannibal jinx, and is socially very fun (plus butler needs more love)
• • Potential crazy change: -Mezepheles +Vizier (it would be funny)

Grim is pre-final day hatter change. Thanks for making this script, Hannah!

[stable trail]

Look at that tentacle

[fossil flax]

people were able to trace it on final day!

[fossil flax]

...and I should've read this before running it in live, sorry 😅

[quaint cloud]

😂

I mean worse scripts are run in live all the time, it just means if you make a live suggestion I will throw it out on text grounds

That’s good feedback regardless though thank you

I think mez and hatter is a problem here, it just is

I’m personally fine with ND baron on the script but it just is super strong as already discussed

I think I’m fine with it staying if I removed mez/hatter shenanigans

I don’t think oracle is a good addition, it only tracks executions and imp/sw which is not enough

There’s also no misinfo for it outside of drunk nd / mez

…vizier will not be added to the script 😛

I’m also glad the more social focus seems to have come really clear, as I didn’t even note publicly it was designed to be one

Also general is fire here and I love it

[undone thistle]

That's what I said 👐

I feel vindicated

But yeah, I forgot how strong Mez hatter is, why didn't the Mez swap in this grim reveal?

[fossil flax]

this was starting evil team. Hatter was only killed after sleeping on 4 (and cere -> baron, mez -> cere, nd-> Ojo) but it meant nothing because the game was over

for what it's worth I think I borked the bag a little, taking out a VI and putting in a General would've steered good in the right direction more (despite the fact evil almost lost because the hatter bluffed lunatic, making the demon think he was the lunatic for the first three days and almost outed)

[tardy sedge]

I really enjoyed the script, the game felt very weighted in evil tje game I played since it was 10 players plus a mez and d1 madness execute in the first hour?? but outside that I really enjoyed this script! i'm not experienced enough to suggest good changes sorry :(

[woeful mango]

I agree with Axola that Village Idiot is underwhelming here, General is straight fire, fits well and has a nice theme of intuition with Fish + HP

Mez plus Hatter is a problem that I very deliberately avoided when building grims for my game, and it’s worse than Baron ND because avoiding that combo lets good team get easier meta information (We have a Hatter, there probably isn’t a Mez in play)

I think good swaps are VI -> Empath/Steward and Hatter -> Klutz

Empath and Steward have the same alignment checking niche as VI, and Klutz is baller with Mezepheles

[fossil flax]

…so you’re saying butler has a chance 🥹

[undone thistle]

Oh lmao nice job to the hatter player then, surviving that long

[quaint cloud]

Hatter and mez need to go for sure

I am not sure on VI being swapped out, it's more of a taste swap instead of a mechanical / health fault like the other two

[quaint cloud]

i am tempted but hmm

the thing I have with VI in these two play tests is that it didn't actually show the strength of the role, since they both kinda just got destroyed lol

[quaint cloud]

I am thinking

• Hatter

• Mutant, Butler, or Klutz
  I think out of these mutant plays the most interesting with the other roles on this script, cere is also on script so it's not hard confirmed. Butler doesn't give much here, and klutz is always just a decent addition 👌
  (Can also add two outsiders if I remove a minion)

• Mez

• Witch, or simply remove the 5th minion
  I think most other minions do not fit here, and would rather remove the 4th, than add meh 5th one

• VI
  I'm not sold it needs to go yet, but could replace it with steward, savant, pixie, maybe town crier? dunno

let me know what you all think about this before I make a 1.1 version 🙂

[undone thistle]

Personally I'd add mutant and I'm not even that big of a mutant fan

[stable trail]

steward is good

[quaint cloud]

I am a steward lover but I dunno if it mechanically is the best to place here

Although it fits the social focus and vibe well

[fossil flax]

I think keeping the hatter on can be okay; the Demon likes the Hatter a lot

Just that Hatter changing a Baron is very very strong

The VI token just kinda feels crap to pull on this script and doesn’t seem to do much? I’d imagine even with the benefit of text RR and better coordination on who to focus each night the evil team just has so many tools to shut them down if played well

They’re especially frameable in a way most roles aren’t here (NWM, fish, HP, cannibal all come to mind as being hard to discredit)

Mezepheles is very funny but ludicrously strong; if you change it I think dropping it entirely might be the way to go here

[quaint cloud]

Hatter sucks here imo because there’s an optimal choice

Mario or Baron always goes into sw/cere, or mez (if it stayed)

[undone thistle]

^^

[quaint cloud]

Will be updating this script to 1.1 (I forgot to lol) but now with ogre!

I think it works very well here

[coral raft]

You sure? That's 2 extra evils

[quaint cloud]

Mez will be going

[simple fable]

Ogre isn't a terrible extra evil tbh

[quaint cloud]

It isn’t but mez is just going out of 1.1 regardless

[coral raft]

Oh sorry wasn't following the updates too closely

Then yeah sure

[undone thistle]

When you update it can you post a new PNG here?

[quaint cloud]

Yep! Am doing everything now

also the new cannibal juggler jinx is in play here, which is awesome

accidently just had the perfect script for this update lol

Unfriendly Invitations 1.1

** Version 1.0 to Version 1.1 Changelog **

- Hatter

• Ogre
• Mutant
  Ogre works incredibly well on this script, tying into the theme beuatifully. Hatter unfortunately did not mesh too well with most of the minions, with baron and marionette being on script there is an almost optimal choice, and it also lets the mario know they are evil. Mutant was an easy replacement as there's also cerenovus on script, it also meshes well with a lot of the townsfolk in my opinion.

- Mezepheles
Mezepheles is pretty strong on this script in playtesting, and in general I think the script works better without it

- Cannibal & Juggler
Official jinx released: If the Juggler guesses on their first day and dies by execution, tonight the living Cannibal learns how many guesses the Juggler got correct.

@fossil flax I have lost pin perms cause no longer mod, can you pin this? 🙏

[quaint cloud]

Thank you dearly

[fossil flax]

you bet 🫡

[undone thistle]

Thank you!

[woeful mango]

Ogre replacing Politican = mucho cred 👍
Mezepheles gone = mucho cred! 👍 👍

[quaint cloud]

Just ran two play tests, will post some thoughts here later!

[exotic patrol]

After playing this

I am felt desperately wishing there was 1 other like
Strong good info role

Oracle, undertaker, Blood Hunter, something

As the Fortune Teller there, I felt really alone in info

[quaint cloud]

It is somewhat intentional there’s not a ton of very explicit “in your face info”, it’s meant to be a more social / “vibe it out” script

With that said there’s a current problem that the good team could use a bit more reasonable explicit info, while also having a balance problem with some more mechanical things, and ALSO needing more misinformation to counter act them, this script is pretty good sided so far

[simple fable]

I could see another YSK

Maybe Knight?

[quaint cloud]

Am a knight enjoyer but personally not a fan of it on scripts with high demon mobility

I think NWM needs to go farmer for RK maybe?

I think VI might be worth removing although I do love the character 😭

I think BH would be great here, but unfortunately with ogre I’m pretty beh on it

[exotic patrol]

I honestly think BH would be great on here

Instead of Farmer, IMO

[quaint cloud]

I’m just not happy with two extra evils

and not happy with SOI

[exotic patrol]

SOI?

[quaint cloud]

Spirit of ivory

[exotic patrol]

Ah

Maybe just like
A note to STs

"don't put BH and Ogre together pls"

Dunno

That defeats the purpose

[quaint cloud]

I don’t like that script philosophy wise

If I don’t want STs to run it together, I’m not putting it on a script together

[exotic patrol]

Yeah, fair

[quaint cloud]

Also in terms of oracle/undertaker, script composition wise neither of these work imo, oracle has no counter balance via misinformation / multiple possibilities, and undertaker has no way for evil to bluff it

[exotic patrol]

Maybe FG or TC? Hell, even Seamstress would feel decent.

[woeful mango]

I'll write up my thoughts on the playtest in the morning, I've got stuff to say

[wispy rose]

Looking at this script, it seems good, although there are definitely some changes I would like to suggest.

! Adding another YSK role might help with Cannibal on the script. Since most characters are generally played in which they are against being executed even with the reassurance of Cannibal. A Steward might be best

! Most scripts usually have what I like to call a Minion detector and Demon detector [i.e. Investigator and Fortune Teller (even Slayer) in TB] and the best Minion detector for the script (and most scripts in general) is TC. I do want to keep the idea of the script whilst stating what I think, so I am not sure what characters you should change (if you were to see this) Overall, I like it

[earnest mist]

Balloonist perhaps, could be too powerful though

[quaint cloud]

So, with 1.2 (or 2.0 depending on how much is changed) I want to accomplish a few things:

1. Overall this is intended to be more of a social script than a mechanical script
2. Currently good is stronger than evil, I don't think evil has won a single game since 1.1 update, I would rather reduce goods strength than buff evils
3. NWM needs to go, high priestess needs to go unless there are more reasons to show evil players in the next update, village idiot should go

Some additional notes:

• Ojo isn't exactly doing a ton for evil here, and it's not increasing worlds for evil very much. I may change ojo into another demon at some point, but not sure
• This is a script that is still mainly designed for text games, as I am a text game player and ST, however this seems to have been played a few times in live, and I will be running live a bit, so I will no longer solely be thinking about what is fun from a text perspective

With all that out of the way, these are some changes I am decently sure about:

• VI, NWM, and HP should go. VI is just not having its intended effect and I think it's too strong and not fun. NWM is a mechanical nightmare with no dashii, and HP is acting as a "each night learn a good player", which I'm not okay with

• If an outsider needs to be removed to make space, or just for whatever reason, I would remove damsel or mutant

Here are some changes I am somewhat sure of:

• Amne, farmer are potential swap outs, I think farmer is a bit mechanically strong here and has 0 evil counter play from them besides just not killing them. Amne is more of a mechanical thing normally, I may be interested in testing out more social sided abilities, like passive, nomination, voting, etc abilities before removing it

Here are additions I am considering:

Townsfolk:

• Steward
• Town Crier
• Huntsman
• Librarian
• Mayor
• Monk and Soldier, would likely be both or none
• Pixie

Outsiders:
Butler for one of damsel or mutant

I'll be sitting on this for a bit and if anyone has any comments on these potential swaps let me know!

[woeful mango]

I support the removal of VI and Farmer, they just don’t fit very well and they’re a nightmare for evil team, ditto with HP. I still think Amnesiac can work here, just need to lean away from the info style abilities you would find in Catfishing.

I think Mutant fits less here than Damsel, so that should go if you’re thinking of dropping an outsider.

Of the replacements you’ve mentioned, I like Librarian, Steward, Town Crier, and Mayor. Pixie almost works, but I don’t like how it gets completely shut down by Cerenovus. I think this script could use more incentives for good team bluffing, so I’m down for Monk + Soldier as well.

So maybe:
VI -> TC
Farmer -> Soldier
HP -> Monk
NWM -> Steward/Librarian

[exotic patrol]

I'd also support the removal of VI, HP, and Farmer, but I think the Outsider suite is good (especially considering Butler's... Butleriness) and Amnesiac definitely can work.
If we're doing three specific replacements, I'd say TC, Steward, and Librarian. Mayor is a great alternate win-con, but I simply don't know whether it quite fits the vibe of the script.

I think NWM worked well, but I was the primary beneficiary of it, so I am rather biased in my perspective.

[quaint cloud]

NWM with such low droisoning is unfortunately just an insanely good sided combo and it regretfully has to go

Which sucks because it’s such a perfect TF to this script otherwise

Outsider suite is pretty good as is I agree, I can understand reservations about butler since it’s a controversial character but I think it’s unarguably a very good fit theme wise

[quaint cloud]

Version 1.1 to Version 1.2 Changelog

- High Priestess
- Village Idiot
- Nightwatchman

• Steward
• Town Crier
• Mayor

Overall HP, VI, and NWM were causing too many problems script wise, they were either too oppressive to evil or weren't fun.
They've collectively been replaced by steward, town crier, and mayor, this should reduce the effective information of the good team, while still providing confirmation chains, and a potential win con.

For future updates, I will be keeping an eye on amnesiac and farmer, while I do believe both of them have problems as it stands on the script, I'm not utterly convinced that replacing them will solve much. Monk + Soldier is a potential addition to this script, however monk has a similar problem as farmer with no-dashii, and soldier + monk are both collectively stronger against ND than farmer IMO.
For 1.2, I will reccomend to prospective STs to run the amnesiac with a more social focused, non mechanical information ability. Think passive abilities, abilities based on voting/noms, etc.

Unfriendly Invitations 1.2

@fossil flax 🧷 please? 🥹

[fossil flax]

want me to unpin the other one?

[quaint cloud]

yes please

[exotic patrol]

Also, yeah, support Ojo being switched in the future — I honestly think Fang Gu would be cool alongside the quiet outsiders, especially Damsel.

[quaint cloud]

thank you!

[quaint cloud]

Fang gu and vigormortis are both potential future demons IMO, unfortunately though I am pretty firm on there being only one extra evil possible, which means ogre would have to go

Something like No dashii imp fang gu or vigor imp fang gu is a potential future for the script

Vigor would need a change up in the minion suite however, with one more active minion to make it worthwhile

[fossil flax]

scripts with imp/vigor/fang gu 📈 📈 📈

[exotic patrol]

Baron to Godfather?

[fossil flax]

not when it's the only source of extra death

[quaint cloud]

No extra death on the script

[fossil flax]

baron vigor isn't even that bad tbh

[exotic patrol]

Right

[fossil flax]

it's mainly SW

[quaint cloud]

It isn't

SW vigor is like, possibly the worst combo?

[fossil flax]

mastermind

but yes

[quaint cloud]

ah I forget mastermind exists

Mario is okay, it depends what the mario is

I could consider adding a harpy and cerenovus in the future because I think harpy actually would be very interesting on a script with such low evil pings

But in general I do want to focus on the minions being a bit quieter and the evil team being weaker with the good team being more social/passive in terms of playstyle

[exotic patrol]

Poisoner's a classic

But it's rather annoying to account for in info

[quaint cloud]

Poisoner is a hard no for pretty much any script I make

[exotic patrol]

Feels almost like a Fibbin

[quaint cloud]

Because I hate poisoner in text

hate hate hate

[exotic patrol]

I do poisoner if Acrobat is on script

I think Blood really needs a character with poison/drunk detection

[quaint cloud]

Alright, lets take a look at this

If I remember correctly, the guise between this is "roles that provide reasons for others to talk to others, and roles that provide reasons to trust distrust others" or something

Issues:

• Ojo, just don't think it's interesting here
• Highpriestess basically mandatory, iirc I removed it when I was a believer in "you talk to the person with the best mech info"
• Amnesiac feels off
• Towncrier feels off
• I think outsider and minion suite defenitelly need a touchup

I am coming around to fang gu tbh, though I think it means drunk and ogre needs to go imo,

I like this outsider suite a bit more overall

First I think mutant/damsel doesn't exactly fit the vibe of the script, though damsel + huntsman definitely does

[earnest mist]

Baron + ND is certainly an interaction to be wary of.

[quaint cloud]

Baron is probably going in some form yeah

[earnest mist]

Xaan could work?

[quaint cloud]

yep

Currently my working version has Xaan and fang gu, which I don't know how I feel about it

My instinct is bleh

[earnest mist]

Xaan + FG needs a strong TF suite imo

[quaint cloud]

Yeah, the problem im sort of sorting into atm is that the townsfolk need major info buffs which... is not the point of the script

I’m going to sit on it a bit but there’s definitely room for improvement, just need to figure out the puzzle

[woeful mango]

If the focus is on townsfolk that make people talk, then Savant can work with the right statements

[quaint cloud]

that is a good shout tbh

[quaint cloud]

I have done the update finally 🥳

Script Name
Unfriendly Invitations -> Friendly Invitations

"Reasons to talk to other players".. the old name "Unfriendly Invitations" fit more, with roles like lunatic, Mezepheles, Magician, Marionette. With this rewrite, there is a heavier focus on the positive side of invitations. I decided to drop the "Un" friendly to focus on this. It just sounds slightly better too.

Demons
Ojo -> Vigormortis
Vigormortis is a person favorite demon of mine, but it really struggled with the previous minions, now, the minions are more active, and are all balanced with Vigor in their own way.

Minions
Baron & Mario -> Xaan & Widow
Baron plus No Dashii is a famously brutal combo, and while Xaan ND is still strong, it is much more balanced around the control xaan gives. Mario also struggled a bit with some of these roles, and I think widow while may fit with the theme less, is a very strong vigor kill, and gives evil a leg up they needed.

Outsiders
Drunk, Lunatic, Mutant -> Butler & Klutz
Drunk Xaan sucks, lunatic was somewhat weak with the removal of Magician, and Mutant didn't fit with the theme. Butler is a strong fit for the theme, it is literally your job to figure out which players are good, and are voting, and to buttle them. Klutz fits this similarly, find a good player, or lose.

Townsfolk
Towncrier, Magician, Ravenkeeper -> High Priestess, Savant, Huntsman
Tonwncrier sucks, next. Magician was interesting for the scirpt theme, and honestly still fits, but I am not a big fan of the interaction with ND. Magician could come back. Ravenkeeper still works, but I think it needed to go for space.

Highpriestess fits the theme perfectly. Savant is a role that seems out of place, but savant thrives when good communicate to figure out the information. Huntsman also fits the theme perfectly, and I have come around to like it.

Friendly Invitations

@fossil flax pin pls 🙏

[fossil flax]

🥳

[quaint cloud]

also let me know what you think 🙂‍↕️

[fossil flax]

i'm next in the livequeue i could just put this on the poll

[quaint cloud]

😳

[fossil flax]

you know, like the first time i ran UI

(and only time i ran UI lmao)

[fossil flax]

we got a playtest 🥳

the vigor didn't kill either minion but it worked out somehow

overall - vibes were really good, this script definitely got people talking and bluffing big

[coral raft]

Flowchart win due to off script heretic

[quaint cloud]

Yahooo 🥳

[fossil flax]

bumping because i ran this again

the steward nominated and executed their own ping in final 4 😭 😭 😭

couple notes:

• people really like this script, like someone said "yeah i don't think there's a single character i'd dislike being on it" huge W
• god bless using evil nightkills demons to evil nightkill, arcanic starpassed on n3 to frame nyx as the evil in the noble ping which worked for a fair bit
• ogre feels about right in power level compared to something like poli, it's just quiet enough while also being just loud enough
• in hindsight the amne I ran was probably too high-info for this script and I need to spec into more social amnesiac abilities; it almost hardsolved
• god bless juggler + xaan 2

hannah you cooked hard w this script

[royal whale]

what was the amne?

[fossil flax]

Each night, choose a player: learn the closest evil character to them

the only reason it didn't exactly hardsolve is because the amne saw a Vigormortis while Xaan-poisoned and never checked close enough to the Imp

[royal whale]

oof

[obsidian ridge]

Hystrex livevoice

[coral raft]

🙂‍↕️

[quaint cloud]

😎 call me the chef the way I pair characters together and cook

amnes are fine here if they give strict information tbh

Because amne's excel at wanting other people to help them with their ability naturally

but it's best if your amnesiac ability inherently incentivizes the amne wanting to chat

EN Pick a player, EN learn a character, nom/whisper related ones can be fine (just make sure they don't suck in the first place), stuff like that

[quaint cloud]

Think I am going to get a playtest done in text before I go ahead and make many changes, but in lieu of pearly gates being where I want it, I am going to take a look here and move this up to the standard I want (reliably re-playable, and consistently interesting without sucking in text for any reason)

I think for TF, Steward Juggler and Amnesiac are the ones to keep an eye on.

Steward just because it breaks my steward personal taste of lower/droison.. like on this script steward doesn't have a ton of reason to intrinsically trust their ping which devalues my favorite part of the character. But it is so good for the theme and I do still think it works overall

Juggler because it just feels off. dunno. I think it's balanced though with this suite of reasons to lie & droison

Amnesiac because it is like 50% a cop out TF because it got hard to place a 12th/13th, but also I do think ojectively it fits the theme a lot

Outsiders are pretty stuck in their ways, just because there's not a single outsider really worth adding onto for, maybe sweetheart or PM, but they aren't my faovirtes. Also these outsiders all fit the theme so hard

Minions are fine + minion space is hell, there is a good question of "Is ND + widow/xaan too much to have on the script" and my eternal answer is "just be a good ST", but it is at the moment bad for the resilience of the script

Demons are immutable for the most part because I just don't really see anything else ever really fitting

[fossil flax]

ended up running another game of this! every demon has been in the bag at least once now

🥳

a couple good kills meant town basically had no sober info, but strawpass came in clutch and the fisherman --> farmer managed to dodge the block despite being the main frame

fun script!

[quaint cloud]

what a lovely extension cord 🤩

[quaint cloud]

@tender lantern @fossil flax I think I do agree that this script needs some extra early game execution incentive, i'm not sure invest is the way to go but it's up there

there's not really a ton of ones that work, VI isn't a horrible idea and definitely matches the theme very well

VI Xaan is an interaction I like a lot

[tender lantern]

restating thoughts from #1403787975472447518 kibitz:

i think adjacent to but slightly distinct from early execution incentive, the main thing the script would benefit from is specifically another source or two of early conflict to generate social activity; particularly in text where people need something to do in order to have something to talk about

Investigator definitely does that the most consistently and impactfully out of all the reasonable options and i still think it's fun with this minion suite

Juggler (already on script but not necessarily committed to staying), VI, and Seamstress are the other top-of-mind candidates

[quaint cloud]

I think side-adjacent to the VI/Invest/etc additions could be ones like pixie, just because even though pixie isn't an execution driver per say it's a conflict driver (And just is nice in damsel scripts / cere scripts)

[tender lantern]

pixie also seems decent here, yeah

[quaint cloud]

I think I liked juggler in this game and while I still question it staying long term I want to hear it out tbh

It probably depends on what happens to the minion/demon suite long term

Shugenja does that d1 drive very well but boy is it powerful lol

[tender lantern]

shugenja and steward on the same script feels sad

[quaint cloud]

yeah

[tender lantern]

i know shugenja isn't literally steward+ but it kinda is

[full widget]

Some thoughts I had after playing this from the perspective of a minion!

I felt like the bluffing space without a bluff was a bit odd. The outsider modification on script kinda did that I think? It feels like it’s missing an additive role. There’s either -1 from vigor, or ?? from Xaan, but nothing to add it beyond that, and so drawing the Xaan token I felt kinda obligated to bluff an outsider, because a lot of the time there’s going to be a low outsider count on script - and even then it feels risky because if Xaan gets solved for, you might get outted evil pretty quickly, and if there’s too many outsider claims then Xaan is confirmed, which alongside widow also being very loud, feels possibly detrimental to possible worlds?

Village idiot would help the evil bluffing space a lot and does match the theme quite nicely

Idk if Fang Gu would exactly fit as a 4th demon, but it would carry a +1 outsider part.

[quaint cloud]

and also just in general whenever there's too much of that YSK soup, additionally with cannibal... yikes. I fear a Noble Shugenja Juggler Cannibal game or similar bags

definitely has counter play due to widow/xaan/ND but still, just a combo that can really run away with things

[full widget]

I think if Xaan can be quieter it’d really thrive here but a +1 seems maybe needed to get to that, unless it being a “loud minion” is sorta the intent I suppose

[quaint cloud]

I think part of the dynamic is meant to be due to damsel/ogre being fairly quiet in the scheme of things but .. still, I think that's a real thing

[tender lantern]

Fang Gu + Xaan feels so rough on a script that does not have tools to solve for it imo

[quaint cloud]

I worry about fang gu just because fang gu has hands, and on this script good doesn't have the tools to combat it (especially with widow/xaan/sw tbh), I would maybe see a balloonist being great here though

But there's an outsider dynamic issue here I would agree

[full widget]

I was thinking balloonist could be a softer solution

or huntsman being additive but ick

[quaint cloud]

I think the other side of the script I'm looking at is ND, just specifically with these minions, good does not have what it needs to combat an ND game with 2 out of 3 of Widow/Xaan/SW

[full widget]

The flip side could be digging into the lowered outsider count with village idiot and hermit idk. But then widow probably feels weird

[quaint cloud]

also if ND is gone then I can put magician on

Unironically Kazali could work lol

outsider count soup

[full widget]

definitely with the social game part of it, it weakens magician if you wanted that but it’s only 1/4 or 1/3 of the demons then

Kazali probably doesn’t pick Xaan ever tho incase it accidentally takes out all the outsiders, idk what a night 0 Xaan would do

[quaint cloud]

the ST trips & falls, drops the grim, and needs to re-rack 🙈

I think rn I am leaning towards

• VI
• Pixie
• Seamstress maybe?

And then on the chopping block.. I think Amne while I think can have it's place is just always going to be weird. Steward is a character I love a lot but I think it gets its kneecaps broken by Xaan / ND / Widow too much, maybe Savant/FT

I like savant in theory but I question it's place here in practice. But also Savant does just thrive when people are chatting and working together

FT is very weak on theme but meh, Imp / SW scripts thrive with FT on it

[obsidian ridge]

I think this is a pretty good kazali minion suite, right around the upper ceiling of "this script is not built entirely around the kazali"

Arguably, in the upper echelons of what you end up with when you do build a script entirely around the kazali

[quaint cloud]

I think the only thing holding me back on kazli is the huntsman jinx tbh, which, is nothing compared to my issues with ND tbh

however magician probably still stays off because I just think it's a bit sad

especially for a script 50/50 built for text, yikes

[obsidian ridge]

Huntsman/Damsel/Kazali is an area I've seen less of than solo Damsel/Kazali in practice but the bluffspace it produces is really interesting with evil nightkills demons in particular and it can provide additional reasons for a damsel to take the risk of outing while alive (which counters the starting bluff a little)

[quaint cloud]

Oooh yeah I haven't considered both of those

Vigor killed minion claiming kazali jinx turned damsel is just great

though requires a lot of commitment to the bluff via huntsman bluff as well

I think something like this works

I kind of want to replace FT with seamstress.. I don't quite know, but something about FT just feels off here 🤷

[quaint cloud]

Hm, okay, I think with no dashii out I am going to remove juggler, xaan/widow just really isn't enough for me to like it anymore

It was already a bit on the edge w/out vortox but that just does it

[dense mango]

i agree

it and savant are heavy info

but ft info tends to be not as helpful with the amount of demon movement

[quaint cloud]

Tbh it’s more about the vibe aspect of it, I think it’s just the weakest character on the theme here

But mechanically FT is amazing here from a script building perspective

Oh right balloonist exists, I think that swaps for FT just fine

Outsider count soup is a bit unfortunate though

[dense mango]

i mean i think that element is fun

but yea i agree being the FT is not conducive to making friends on this script

[fossil flax]

FT feels super good from a gameplay perspective thoughhhh

[quaint cloud]

I think the answer is just “playtest 4head” so I will probably stick with the initial set of changes and go from there

If anyone is able to run it, especially in text 🥹, I have my next games planned out for 2-3 months

[obsidian ridge]

oh yeah I did put it on my list
-# which is about as long

[fossil flax]

🫡 if i can get the livevoice community to vote for it in polls i'll report back

[quaint cloud]

I’ll actually push the update later today 👍

[quaint cloud]

I’m curious about any thoughts about which TFs should be cut

I think VI, Pixie, Balloonist are probably prime candidates to be added, either Seam/Invest probably right behind

Juggler steward gone for sure I’d say, but after that it’s awkward

[fossil flax]

Intuition is that I don't love Pixie here but that's because the two scripts I actually like it on have a lot more going on

This has Damsel and Ogre and Cere so it's probably fine but the fear is that there isn't enough incentive to uphold pixie madness

This might be a skill issue on my end but I haven't found Amne particularly compelling

[quaint cloud]

Amne is compelling partly in the like “amne is an ability that when at its best has people working together”

But

It’s amne, and the experiences I have of that ideal are low

I think that’s a fair assessment for pixie, I think part of it depends on your view of DCs (and just madness as well ofc)

I’m also just a pixie lover sooo 🙈

I think the reverse angle is I don’t really like seamstress in text, it’s just always felt a little dull. Which is also my worry for invest

[obsidian ridge]

I find on Kazali scripts Seamstress tends to be more interesting than Investigator (Seam has agency and can pick what it finds interesting + has more inbuilt variety in what it learns, Invest can be weird when evil teams are non-arbitrary)

I think an interestingly shared characteristic amongst a lot of scripts designed by "people who are highly active on this server in non-livevoice communities and very interested in various forms of script theory" (including many that were either designed for longtext or made the jump to it well) is that they can end up with relatively less d1 direction than the b3 or many customs from other design strains, which implies something about that broad design strain contributes?

This script has decent starting info if VI comes along in particular, and a Cannibal, which both tend to help in that direction but if the feedback wants "more to talk about d1" then Seam does tend to be a role that does that on scripts like this one

[fossil flax]

@obsidian ridge "every boozling-like" (so it and final nail) and "every poppyganda-like" (so it and other legion-vortox scripts: roundabout and Waluigi's Moustache come to mind)

it's fun on nvg but I'd lean against calling that a script as much as it is an experiment

or an artform

[dense mango]

as a person who was just the FT on this… my personal experience says otherwise rip

[tender lantern]

i think my worry for seamstress is that it gives people the option to not use it to start conversations d1

investigator both guarantees a source of conflict d1 and gives people a Thing to talk about outside that (pointer towards minion type), whereas I can easily see games with seamstress in the bag that play out similarly rough because the seamstress decides to hold n1 or maybe even hold n2

and maybe giving good the option to make that mistake is fine from a balance standpoint - if they're not using seamstress to start conversations early they'll struggle and that's on them - but it doesn't solve the gameplay experience problem

[quaint cloud]

Yeah I agree

I think my think with invest is one minion games & cannibal

Xaan's existence does help it a ton though, but even then I just dunno if invest is a bit too high power now

Widow is better in 2m+ but doesn't help as much in one minion

[fossil flax]

@quaint cloud is this the most up-to-date verison of the script?

[quaint cloud]

atm no, it's still old version 👍

I think I need to sit down and tinker with combinations for an hour or two to find what settles in best out of the set of changes

I am coming around to invest but then I think good team needs to be taken down a notch, given ND's removal, and kazali is only misinfo via outsider count

Because VI/Pixie/Invest/Noble/FT/Savant/Fisherman/Cannibal/Farmer is just... so much

[fossil flax]

how do you feel about 5th outsider puzzlemaster or something?

downside being evil needs to actually claim it for its script presence to matter

[quaint cloud]

I am the king of the 5th outsider puzzlemaster, I would not mind it at all 😎

fits with the theme an absolute ton too

[fossil flax]

mhm, talking to people to figure out where a puzzledrunk is

i guess the pros/cons wrt misinfo:

pros of puzzlemaster: way more devastating when actually inplay, cool vigor minion bluff, fits thematically
cons of puzzlemaster: in a non-puzzlemaster game, the PM being on script doesn't do much since an evil has to claim it to get things done (contrasts drunk, which doesn't need to be claimed and people can tunnel by themselves)

[quaint cloud]

I think drunk with this much outsider mod is questionable unfortunately

[quaint cloud]

I think adding PM is a decent choice, I think movement on anything but TF is very tight script wise

Though adding PM depends on what happens with TF, widow/xaan/PM is bordering on too much

[fossil flax]

yeah drunk with xaan and kazali is a little insane but just contrasting different misinfo options

[quaint cloud]

update incoming waow

[royal whale]

waow

[quaint cloud]

Friendly Invitations - September Update

Townsfolk:

Fortune Teller -> Balloonist
Juggler -> Village Idiot
Amnesiac -> Pixie

With the removal of ND, FT, Juggler were too much for the script to handle. These are roles which need built in excuses for evil, and Xaan 2 / Widow poison as the easiest explanations didn't cut it. Amnesiac was weakly fitting with the script, and was sort of a filler character.

Pixie, Village idiot, and Balloonist should increase the events of the early game, but adding in evil pings, double claims, and getting a game's engine running within the second night.

Demons:
No Dashii -> Kazali
No dashii was simply too much misinformation with these minions. It created large meta and bag building concerns, as an ST who runs Dashii + Xaan + Widow probably will not survive the grim reveal.

Kazali slots into the theme by adding onto the social game, Kazali already has the built in conundrum of who and what to pick, and now that minions might have bluffs, who knows if that socially-good player is good because they are good.. or because they had a very coinvent bluff from the start...

@royal whale pin please 🥹

[quaint cloud]

god bless

[royal whale]

i gotchu

[fossil flax]

vigorkilled minion bluffing the kazali/huntsman jinx turning them into the damsel 🔥🔥🔥🔥

anyway Hannah you've been spared 😌 time to run this in livevoice and have people rave about it again because it's heat

[timber shadow]

Actually, @naive crane here

[naive crane]

Thanks

[celest cape]

Gave +1 Thanks to @timber shadow (current: #397 - 133)

[quaint cloud]

Just a heads up to friendly invitations enjoyers but I am considering removing damsel from the script in later versions 😎

Is it literally the objectively most perfect two characters to put on the theme of this script? yes. do I think it makes for a better play experience.... maybe 🙈. I want to find out so more playtesting shall be done

Overall I think my script design goal is to evoke a certain feeling, in this case, the experience and idea of "Oh god there's so many people I need to talk to" and incentivising vibe checking other players

I think this script is in the ball park of that, much further than PG was to it's goal at it's inception. I forsee many playtests and changes in the future 🙏

[fossil flax]

maybe people will actually tell the truth to each other with damsel off the script 🫣

[quaint cloud]

nuh uh

I am kinda iffy on it on both sides because I think that inherent tension where, on a script where damsel is very barren (No heretic, poppygrower, less incentive to do "evil" things as good, w/e) it goes beyond damsel cover into requiring everyone to put a ton of attention into it

I do think there's spaces where that's interesting and a script where people are supposed to trust fall, read people, make social plans, etc, I feel like there is space for it
But also it sucks ass sometimes lol and damsel in text still is mildly terrifying at best and very sad at worst

I think there's a version of this script that could exist where magician is back on, cannibal is off, one or two more TF with heavy reason to lie, some more non-evil natural misinfo where it works a lot better
heretic

But I don't know if the characters availible is worth the squeeze for that but hm

[obsidian ridge]

I have thoughts on this script!

I've said something to Axo in the past along the lines of "I like Hannah's scripts but don't understand the ways they describe them", which is true here too -- I think at least "mid-info" is the correct characterisation, town was very lost by the end but in a slightly different circumstance Axo has two VI evils on her d3 and the game is hardsolved

I like the script, it's probably easier to like in a game with fewer than four VI claims but look I only put three in the bag, that's totally different

I think a "talking script" is probably a contraindication to Huntsman/Damsel in that these roles are not exceptionally hospitable to open or friendly towns. Damsel did some very cool things at the end here as a script presence role but I'm not sure it'd play as interestingly as an in-play role

I like the script feel of all the townsfolk I put in the bag (Farmer was unfortunate but what can you do, I planned to Steward-confirm it)

I felt somewhat while bagbuilding that finding bluffs that allow evil to push worlds is difficult while also building a town that can form and push worlds

I think the theoretical goal of a "pure vibes" script is not achievable in BotC and also not what any version of this script has been, which colours my thoughts here (if you want to play Mountainous, play Mountainous, FI has way more info and always will)

[obsidian ridge]

With this in mind, I think readding a more 'pushy' role that got dropped (e.g. FT, Amnesiac) is at least worth considering

I heard about Recluse and am unconvinced, I think this script really wants a hidden outsider

Like when trying to think about Damsel substitutes I think of Plague Doctor but keep going "not hidden enough"

It's possible in this script to end up with 0 outsider claims all game and having that just mean "evil ogre in vigor" doesn't seem like a desirable outcome

Maybe a fringe concern, it's one I had a lot this game due to it being exactly "evil ogre in vigor"

(it can also be, like, shitty Kazali, but statistically this is an outlier)

[quaint cloud]

You see the problem is I understand concepts in ways that are absolute gibberish to everyone else, when I talk about my scripts it’s like I’m trying to implant my desires and feelings into the reader and that. Does not work 🤣

I think as a player in the script it has elicited the experience I wanted, but needs fine tuning and a lot of grease. That is biased by the fact that ogre is one of my favorite roles to play and it fits the script incredibly well.

My goal was to figure out axo’s alignment and what I needed to help her with, talking to everyone else allowed me to figure who was safe to push if I happened to be evil, but still making progress if I was good

At it’s core this game came down to the fact that town was very reasonable unable to build the “two outsiders evil and damsel claim is cerelocked world”. I think this game is a good example of why mechanics sometimes fail in text games. Mechanics can blind yourself to your reads and your suspicion.

4 VI’s is a lot, I really hate how centralizing the character is and I wish on average STs put a full VI less in play per game

It is staying on the script though, at least for the moment

The damsel question is one I hate, because I agree with you. The recluse thing was mostly to contrast replacing huntsman with seamstress for a playtest and it did its job in that game, but not for the script as a whole. The script needs hidden outsiders to work I agree and plague doctor just isn’t enough

I just really hate how damsel plays in text most of the time, which is an opinion it’s taken me a very long time to actually come to with how strong I hold it now. It needs to go but it’s a major script building puzzle

Damsel could stay in a world where either heretic (no seriously), or magician and or poppy goes on. (And 2-3 more “cagey role” additions)

My issue with FT is that I think it is way too strong tbh. It’s also not the vibe sadly. Amnesiac just feels mid but it does fill a niche the script could thrive with

I think overall though this script in particular comes from the “script that breeds social reads” area, which is the type of scripts I like to play most in text, because mech solving is super boring to me now. I like elaborate plays, delicately built stories and frames, etc

And a lot of people just don’t like that and that’s fine. I think there’s an alternate game where town is a bit more eager to dive into socials and voting mobility and that’s probably the axo dead on f6 scenario

[obsidian ridge]

I think it's just "if the insane coincidence that leads to Elli dying n3 doesn't happen then good wins d3"

Like Elli was locking in a pick on Axo and Axo was not going to kill her under any circumstance except the exact thing that happened

And that's be quite a different discussion because it'd be a mech-heavy solve early

[quaint cloud]

yeah lol

This is probably a wrong gut-feeling for anyone coming from the game but i'm probably going to be capping good's knees a bit harder in exchange for damsel/huntsman being swapped

[obsidian ridge]

I personally think FT is a much weaker role than generally discussed

[quaint cloud]

minion suite could use some work as well, i think I want to avoid the pearly gates issue of 2 loud v 2 quiet but uh, minions are a bitch

though this game was a case of "okay sun is just not evil anymore"

[obsidian ridge]

I think Plague Doctor is cool here and super outsidery here to a degree that if it goes on (and I want it to go on, Pearly Gates-esque as that is) kneecapping town is pretty brutal. I just dunno if it's quite hidden enough but I think literally nothing but Drunk is and Drunk sucks here for other reasons

[quaint cloud]

yeah drunk is a feels bad

[obsidian ridge]

The evil suite feels perfect to me, really good, but also like it could have an excuse for any demon mobility existing in setups like the ones town solved to (which is Plague Doctor)

Like there were 5/6/7 or so different points this game where I explicitly formed the thought "I wish this script had Plague Doctor"

which is a lot

[quaint cloud]

I think the only TF I am almost set on going is savant

[obsidian ridge]

I think Savant is perfect and would be super sad to see it go but it also happens to be specifically a favourite role of mine which is a confounder

[quaint cloud]

yeah that is real

I love savant

I think part of it is just. old time text player is grumpy because I really hate 90% of savant players play patterns in text

It is a role that evil densely fears, rightfully, but it just turns it into a "okay im gonna completely hide and be a void in the game" and ... noooo 🥹

[obsidian ridge]

I think Savant having slightly weird play patterns in every format is an unavoidable thing but there's at least a diversity to the nature of the weirdness

I do think the core idea of like, 13 roles that are super talkative from daybreak is a thing BotC is specifically designed around Not Allowing

[quaint cloud]

I also think I just, as someone who writes for text heavily in mind really avoid roles like savant because it's always an insane gamble

agree yeah

[obsidian ridge]

But yeah I like savant and will always push for it on scripts and my thoughts on scripts without savant are "occasionally I get forced at gunpoint to run one of these" so there's my bias clarified

I think kneecapping town is not so much a concern as like, I built a swingy bag on purpose

I mentioned this in kib

and it turned out Cool and Based like I hoped but also makes it not picture-perfect playtest data

[quaint cloud]

I think my goal is to bring good's ceiling down while raising the average

[obsidian ridge]

how'd the seamstress/recluse version game go?

[quaint cloud]

It went fine, it reinforced my dislike of scapegoat 🙈. I was the scapegoat, two evils DCed recluse. i saved one of them, good spent 3 exe's on them in total

Good won via an incorrect savant info solve in f3, classic

[obsidian ridge]

hi waffles

[quaint cloud]

i think I might never ever put scapegoat on one of my scripts 🙈

[obsidian ridge]

That's fine we'll just put it on for you

[obsidian ridge]

I do think this is an area worth thinking about in data terms

This is probably on the upper extreme of swing this script has in non-Kazali games

Probably including Kazali games, honestly

From a "possibly the person involved in the most Kazali games of anyone" perspective I think it isn't quite as far out on the swings as people tend to assume from looking at it

[quaint cloud]

yeah I don't necessarily want to immediately use this to make a decision

there was a CTBotC streamed game we played of this last friday, and the recluse/seamtress emergency "fine just run this" playtest

CTBotC game was a 10p kazali game I think? or imp, it didn't matter mechanically

All three evils claimed VI lol

the script probably isn't getting another text run for probably another month, i'll probably consider scheduling it after whatever r5 is

I do think i'll be making an update, which will be "okay fine im removing damsel how do we make this still work without it" update 🙂

And leaving the bulk of things unchanged that isn't directly related towards filling the hole damsel will leave

[obsidian ridge]

One nonobvious consideration about removing Damsel is it makes Widow more centralizing in Kazali. This is unlikely to be an issue in practice, it's a multi-demon script so Kazali choices will never be abstractly 'perfect' and it matters more that you don't have shit like mez or pithag than that choices are strictly even

I'm mostly mentioning this as someone who spent like a year trying to deal with widow solo kazali lmao

[quaint cloud]

yeah that is fair

[obsidian ridge]

Savant I think might feel better when "outing info that mentions outsiders" doesn't lose you the game

[quaint cloud]

I don't agree with the instinct people have towards widow a lot of the time, partly because I don't value grim peeking almost at all, and I think the good ping widow gives is a tool people do not use for some reason 😭

but it is a very flashy role and one that has the benefit of "oh if I pick this then I have to solve less problems on my way to f3"

[cerulean jasper]

wdym about the widow ping being a tool people dont use?

[quaint cloud]

I think there's several layers to it

[obsidian ridge]

The player with the widow ping is confirmed good unless evil pushes against widow worlds, which makes it both worth considering as an ST and worth considering from a player seat as either alignment

(notably they cannot be evil in worlds with a widow poison elsewhere which locks a lot of worldbuilding on many scripts)

[quaint cloud]

First I think insta outing widow ping isn't a fun playpattern if you live by it, and there's honestly just better ways to disperse that information. Players don't immediately out their roles when they hear a ping and honestly they should not.

Second, which is why I like widow a lot, is that it is a great juxtaposition for the player who recieved it from others pov. "In widow, they are 100% good, otherwise, they are 100% evil". Especially on a script where I think widows vibes can be sussed out, evil knows who they need to frame or kill if it just gets instantly outed

that's mostly just on the "I think there's a ton more strategy to this than people give it" but then just at the end it just closes worlds to be honest, it presents a really nice binary that in this game, helped the good team a good bit i'd say

[quaint cloud]

tbh I think out of all outsider options mutant fits best with the theme and need for a hidden outsider

Plague doctor does just have the unfortunate play pattern of "dont die 4 head" because of how terrifying it can be

Mutant has a lot of really interesting bluff options here that all allow them to push on their grim & social reads

[obsidian ridge]

Mutant litmus test: what reason other than "the person who drew the mutant token personally wants to live" does the mutant have to survive d1

[quaint cloud]

here's the issue: I have possibly the strongest feelings about blowing yourself up and I cannot answer that question without boiling someone alive 🙈

also hey fun interaction, poppygrower still does things if the kazali is so intent on making a widow

awkward

am I just looking for more reasons to put magician/PG on scripts? yes. but hey, it's there

[obsidian ridge]

Enjoy the game where I draw the mutant token anyone without exactly those thoughts draws the mutant token

(I think mutant is cool if there's like Leviathan or Fang Gu or something and most other mutant scripts actually want politician)

(but ogre is cool here so politician is mostly out)

[quaint cloud]

I think my question to this is that this script has some of the best chances of good actually figuring mutant out

First you have VI's which can just hard confirm people in the right scenarios, second you have HP which, depending on your feelings is cool or not

Then you have savant / fisherman who are the kings of "hey good team. stop that"

And then you have cannibal which makes mutant d1 exe slightly more painful, and farmer which can disable a mutant

politician would be simply amazing here if ogre wasn't even more amazing

oh forgot balloonist too, and steward/noble as well

noble less so because if you're in a noble ping you probably want them to be "mutant or evil who self sacrificed" but meh still not worth an exe

[obsidian ridge]

Honestly I think poli + optional-rule ogre is like the one +2 evils that is outright based. I am also not sure the script for it exists

[quaint cloud]

I don't even hate like adding a librarian so mutant has even slightly more incentive not to insta blow up

I think mutant is not as good as damsel/ogre on theming but man it is super close

[quaint cloud]

Honestly i'm more stuck on what to replace huntsman with, I've either already had and didn't like them on the script or don't think in this current version it's a positive change

I think slayer is the leading candidate but honestly I feel like it's just eh on this script

NWM works on the surface layer but canni-NWM is questionable at best and NWM doesn't actually work with the theme

I think amnesiac back on is a decent shout, though the ST load is already insane

[fossil flax]

scraps Friendly Invitations scriptaday

[quaint cloud]

Sobbing

[fossil flax]

Hannah I can't do a scriptaday when the only characters on it are Steward and High Priestess

[obsidian ridge]

Was reading back through the thread and noticed that you really wanted NWM on here and tried to make it work for ages but it didn't work because of No Dashii, which isn't a concern anymore

That could be another area to think about?

[fossil flax]

^

[obsidian ridge]

ah yeah I just woke up

"Doesn't work with the theme" is a shift given the prior argument was it does

I think canni-nwm is like fine basically, just put the xaan night at your preferred number

or don't put multiple nightwatchman pings in bags where you think they'll btfo evil

[rich socket]

d1 rerack when both sober VIs picked the demon n1

[rich socket]

the xaan damsel guessed wrong on d1 and everyone thought they were a SW who caught a pass

[rich socket]

fisherman used on final day, advice was "go for the mayor win" but t but town thought that the mayor was surely poisoned by something and killed the fish

this is a fun script

[quaint cloud]

Nooo poor f3 fish

Glad you all had fun!

[quaint cloud]

Also oops, forgot to elaborate on this a bit

I think the desired goal of the script is for players to have to trust the connections being made, and extend trust to players to make connections

NWM fails at this because it’s one and done and the confirmation is iron from that players pov

I also think it kinda is meh with xaan tbh, and xaan cannibal nwm helps it be less strong, but doesn’t make it more interesting if that makes sense

[fossil flax]

nwm meh with xaan

it's night vision over

[quaint cloud]

I just don't think it makes the script any better

It's a piece of firm mech info in a script that otherwise mostly doesn't have that, with the exception of farmer (which is balanced by more of the script)

Which makes it uniquely weird with xaan here

[obsidian ridge]

tbf a large chunk of what balances farmer is "spidow and no roles that override evil's nightkill control" (which is fine, but it 'is what it is' in terms of play patterns and farmer tends to suffer more from this because it's one that doesn't have as many 5D chess reasons to kill it anyway when it's sober)

the concept of "a role that forms this chain while having direct agency over it and retaining this regardless of setup" is not in the script

[quaint cloud]

I mean yeah

The bigger thing is that NWM is usually used early, tells two people it's not xaan (or one person that it could be). And Cannibal Xaan "Just set the xaan number accordingly" doesn't help because it still limits worlds very heavily in a way I think isn't in line with the intent of xaan here

[rich socket]

TRUE

key Witch Hunt interaction

it’s also why philo golem on RTC is so cool

[quaint cloud]

they aren't ready....

[rich socket]

what’s wrong with damsel

[quaint cloud]

The simple answer is damsel cover kinda isn't fun tbh, and I think it harms the scripts play patterns of wanting good players to trust fall and connect

[rich socket]

what’s huntsman becoming

[quaint cloud]

In advance I am going to defend why mutant is fine and you all need to stop being D1 suicidal 🥩

• It's a d1 exe spent on a good player (baseline con)
• There's several roles that could have had reasons to trust the mutant, Steward, HP, VI, Savant/Fisherman, Farmer all have ways to either diffuse a mutant, help them with a bluff
• Cannibal. Double explode is unlikely but possible, no cannibal food d1 leaves them hungry and sad
• The player could be ceremad as the mutant (Typical counterplay to d1 strats like this)
• The player can still be built as evil long term because of cere
• The script has a variety of roles that are easy to land into as a mutant. Steward a player you trust, Noble, Pixie, VI (If you aren't scared of pushing on your reads), Fisherman, Farmer
• It really helps evils tempo to have no evil candidates dead d1, especially on a widow/SW/Cere script, which all make early leads more advantageous to evil
• It's boring as hell

[quaint cloud]

Right now I am leaning on adding amnesiac back in

[quaint cloud]

Alrighty, sitting down and actually going through what changes are going to be made

I am of partial mind to make some substantial changes in the interest of playtesting

Particularly settling on investigator, I do think invest/vi is a strong combo for good with makes me want to lean towards adding a recluse which... meh

But also I think I just want to see it in action

Huntsman Damsel are getting the boot this update just honestly if anything to see what it actually does to the social experience of the script. Particularly in text

-# (This is my 🥺 will someone please playtest this update in text ill play in an instant xoxo)

Outside of damsel/huntsman, TF I could give to boot is mostly savant? I just think savant worked in theory, not what I was hoping it'd be in practice. Same thing with damsel huntsman of just gotta kill my darlings

I could see:
- Savant, + Invest
- Huntsman, + Slayer
- Damsel, + Recluse
as a very viable and workable trio

however recluse, is once again, meh

If invest goes on then cannibal actually gets a little prickly, I don't like me cannibal invest and I don't think evil has the hands to fight that reliably enough

Another set of roles I think work with the theme and keep balance is Monk Soldier. Monk does have a slight tick against it as droisoned monk doesn't not work here, but also isn't the best? I don't mind it personally but I could see it being an issue

[quaint cloud]

oh hey

[rich socket]

simply add amne about it

[royal whale]

big fan of solder

[quaint cloud]

god what if I replaced cannibal with UT

sorry everyone friendly invitations is cancelled we're playing tb :)

UT eases cannibal's interaction and xaan basically makes invest / UT a combo I think is fairly tenable

sad UT probably still too strong overall, just too much alignment checking at that point

also just informing everyone but we're at "phase 2" of hannah's script update process
phase 1 is playtesting urging me to update the script
phase 2 is crashing out for a period of 24 hours about the script
phase 3 is randomly 2 weeks later updating it in full

[quaint cloud]

yeah im gonna be stuck on this for a litte bit lol I started thinking too hard

I think an issue i'm currently at is that the script is meant to be less info heavy but it.. isn't, "Town needs more of x, this interaciton is too strong for good" is an issue.. I think I don't should be happening

I think VI / Savant is the issue honestly

[quaint cloud]

~~alright it's bed time 🧓 ~~

I do like NWM a lot more without cannibal, it allows for invest as well and honestly cannibal was starting to get very high levels of utility

im still not happy with it but I think VI / Savant maybe cannibal going off solves a lot of the core discomfort I have had with the script

who reacted with fire and then unreacted that's barbaric 😭

[timber shadow]

I tried to fire react the message but not the image but didn’t realize they were connected 😭

[quaint cloud]

I kind of want UT on this script but then I think spy might have to come on and.. meh

no exe pressure is sadge :/

[obsidian ridge]

I think with Savant you just have the huge constraint that you cannot out outsider-related info on damsel scripts and this constitutes a large share of normal savant info which makes the role play so much cagier

Which means the play patterns that have concerned you might not necessarily persist

It's one of those roles that damsel distorts the play pattern of much more than baseline/even when it's not intentionally covering

[quaint cloud]

I think that's a significant fraction of it tbh but I do think I just have trended towards disliking savant in text and the script just doesn't have enough to hold it up in terms of information anymore

It just is out of place, and I think savant thrives more on scripts with more wild things going on .. and vortox 🙈

[obsidian ridge]

Oh so this is like how we're going into phase 2 of OSA which is me crashing out about trying to find a way to make phase 2 of OSA work

[quaint cloud]

oh boy

im sorry lmao literally everyone who worked on that is gone 🙈, absolute nightmare

[obsidian ridge]

I have a great idea in my head. It's one of the many structures I've stolen from the Wikipedia editor community. No one on the entire server except exactly me ever knows what I mean when I say this and the people who've heard me describe it before are never particularly optimistic

[obsidian ridge]

I'm sure some suspiciously hannah-shaped text mod left a record somewhere. Probably. Right

[quaint cloud]

hell no

OSA was one of the things I did not touch that shit is radioactive

some days I feel like I should be a text mod but like a contractor

Would be fire

"hello hannah we need help"
"what"
"inactivity"
"😎 im in"
-> 1 game limit

[obsidian ridge]

Why are we raising the game limit from 0 to 1

although to be fair with the 0 game limit we're working on some compromise solutions

[quaint cloud]

in regards to friendly invitations, if i keep any execution incentive off of the script do you all pretty please promise to be nice and murder eachother thanks

[obsidian ridge]

No

[quaint cloud]

genuinely I think with NWM/invest UT is just always better because even if it's slightly a pain... we don't have to deal with two invest pings

because i'll take 4 vi's over OP cannibal BS every day

[quaint cloud]

wee I dont know how to feel about just solo monk but I think monk/soldier with farmer mayor is just a lot

[quaint cloud]

Okay so I'm set on needing one of cannibal / UT

Cannibal is overall less direct information but scales in power heavily with roles like invest, so on a cannibal version of the script either invest needs to go or it needs something like a recluse which meh

UT probably just requires spy. It doesn't like need need it but I just don't think there's any cohesion without that core TB interaction of ut/spy/recluse, especially with an investigator

Undertaker I do think I like more overall than cannibal in terms of desired goal of the script, and with widow and xaan it's both bluffable and either gets misinfo itself, or can confirm players who got misinfo. There's reasonable doubt in the early game. But later on UT just becomes a rock, barring widow/vigor, which isn't that bad truly. You also have cere

tbh I don't think UT is too powerful without a spy, it's a little less hidden if UT can get misinfo

If no one claims widow ping, and no one near the UT has died then that is just a lot for evil to really go against, which is okay. I think the same can be said for cannibal in a reverse sense. Cere can pop and prove no droison in low player games.. which is just meh

Once again facing the script writing bane of, I don't have the characters I know I want to exist lol

[cerulean jasper]

which ones out of curosty? (if its unreleased, you can add here with spoilers)

[quaint cloud]

oh no roles in specific I just know that I need more than what I have 😭

[quaint cloud]

Okay, so i've had thoughts that have changed how i'm going to approach this script

Ultimately, I realized that as it currently stands, I am literally just in process of slowly scrambling the script towards become trouble brewing. something something entropy

"I think the desired goal of the script is for players to have to trust the connections being made, and extend trust to players to make connections"
This is literally just tb, this is all TB does, it's TB city. TB has a sweeping misinfo suite, explicit or observed through play-patterns. You're the librarian? Great! Are you poisoned? Did you hit the spy? Are you the drunk? How do you plan with your new buddy? What if they don't want to tell you their role? What if you saw the drunk??

Literally the script is so good because it's designed to make players feel like they can trust their info, but it's actually all secretly doo doo. You get to final three and you're pulling your hair out, because even if you can trust your info, others know how unreliable info is, and don't trust you. That process is what makes socials happen, that process is what I love about this game and that goal of emulating that specific feeling I have had unnammed until now, is subconsciously driving me towards just making trouble god damn brewing

that's more than I thought I would write 🤣

Where is the script going to go? honestly don't know man, i'll see y'all in two weeks with an updated version. hopefully it's good 😆

would be funny though if my script contributions are "SnV if it secretly wasn't SnV but worked in text", "BMR if it didn't work, boffin hated you, but kind of worked in text" and "TB but hannah is really mad about it"

[obsidian ridge]

I see my process of accidentally holding proxy-conversations with Hannah via "Hannah says something to Axo -> Axo says it to me -> I say something about that" will continue unabated

[quaint cloud]

awkward

how has it already been 10 days

Worrying that i'm about to destroy the script 🫣, but i've been working towards a version I'm starting to like more

[royal whale]

mooood

[quaint cloud]

anyways widow was taken out back and shot

Still not entirely sure about the change from widow to boffin but I really really like what boffin does for socials & confirmation / meta roles VS widow

Damsel & Klutz -> Mutant & PM. Savant & Huntsman -> NWM/Amnesiac

cannibal nwm is substantially better imo with xaan/pm & boffin just takes the cake

[quaint cloud]

i sent u my boffin pls respond

[obsidian ridge]

I'm sure Boffin-Amnesiac was an intentional addition and not an oversight

[quaint cloud]

I thought about it, remembered my last boffin amnesiac game, sighed, and put it on

I’m aware it immediately deteriorates the script in the hands of an average or below ST (those who have no sense of “hey. Don’t do this”) however I don’t play in their games so it’s not my problem 🙈

More seriously, it may stay, it may go. I don’t really hate it and if any ST is running amnesiac as I’d like them to (a “social” amne ability, or an amne ability which encourages them to talk to others to figure it out) then I would trust them not to do dumb boffin amne things

[obsidian ridge]

My experience with boffin-amne at this point (n = a lot of Final Nail games) is you can do it but it's almost definitely going to be pretty brutal on this script

[quaint cloud]

~~The best part about boffin is now there’s another thing I can add to the mutant survival list 🫣 ~~

[quaint cloud]

This is probably reasonable

[quaint cloud]

Okay I’m moderately happy with boffin here but I do think amne needs to go after consideration

I might put savant back on, Vati can be happy

Unless I can figure out with of the other roles I think are not bad

[quaint cloud]

its' beeen 2 weeks!!!!

so good news: I have a new version of the script
bad news: I have multiple new versions of the script

This is the current version that I will be running in a text game offserver

[quaint cloud]

Which is this version but savant stayed and amne is not added

this is the other version which is 50% "hmm okay what if" and 50% "okay here's how I can put damsel/huntsman back and add in poppygrower"

The first version is the more likely version to get future iteration, and the second is just .. well 50% me really liking poppygrower

I dunno, I really like boffin here and I think that writing the script with it in mind has opened some doors, but also this script continues to deviate more than I'd really like

I'm not going to push either update until after this next playtest, which will reveal to me where or if to step back at all, and because this script is making me slowly go insane 🙂

[celest cape]

Set a reminder in 3 hours from now (<t:1764737364:f>)
View reminders with the reminders command

[celest cape]

Reminder for @quaint cloud

Reminder from YAGPDB

play test updates

[quaint cloud]

Okay 😎

[quaint cloud]

Had a nice playtest with this version, some thoughts:

I think I am correct about NWM, I just don't know if the vibe really fits ultimately and I think that with cannibal it is untenable even with boffin worlds. I also think boffin just has to go and while I think the platonic ideal of the script has boffin, the restrictions it causes for script building is too harsh to get around

I also am pretty adamant savant needs to go sadly, which I already was planning to do, but running it made me more sure

I still think I am in the mindset of "This script is a puzzle where I just need to figure out the pieces", and I think this playtest has cemented some directions I want to go into and want to avoid

I think the issues I want to address are:

• I don't like Widow/Xaan as a combination in the minion suite
• I think town needs a little bit more foundation information wise, but still want to keep it a little bit soupy
• I think Balloonist, Savant, NWM need to go, puzzlemaster probably needs to go as well

[obsidian ridge]

excited to see the cool new Friendly Invitations update

[quaint cloud]

no no no

goosebonk

[quaint cloud]

Tbh I am contemplating something like this

[tender lantern]

investigator made it 🥳

[fossil flax]

4 you-start-knowing townsfolk with a Xaan feels a little scary? like if it's Xaan 1 it just stomps

and then if it's not a Xaan 1 it's comparatively a fair bit weaker

[quaint cloud]

ngl love the thought of you watching the months long rambling just to finally see invest and go "lets go 🥳"

[quaint cloud]

Yeah, it's a bit of a "build good bags and not good ones" but also given kazali, not something I think is super great

Steward/Invest/Noble/Pixie have a ton of overlap with UT/VI as well which makes me want to consider other YSK or remove a YSK or two

I'm not a great fan of the vigor minions in this spot? But I think that 4 silent minions is the way I want to go

I think widow / cere were anchors of the minion suite that creates a dynamic I don't like

I still do like the idea of dropping kazali and doing imp/vigor only, and it opens up magician

[royal whale]

read this again

[quaint cloud]

biscuits you've been around me for approaching two years, I not type good very sometimes

[royal whale]

and this is why i’m here to be annoying about it when you don’t notice <3

[quaint cloud]

here here okay, we can have exchange:
you can make fun of my typos
give script thoughts

This sounds fair to me

[royal whale]

can you use the "copy script link" option and send the link to me so i can toy around with it directly in the tool?

i dont really like the current tf and i think i can parse out ideas better if i can directly play with it

[quaint cloud]

https://script.bloodontheclocktower.com/?script=H4sIAAAAAAAACiVPQW7DMAz7yuBzXrAHDNsbhmFgG9URIsuBrKRNh%2F19sneRSEIk7c%2BfxHN6Td%2BFHGlK2H2pFsI7VLGEoigU%2FM2YdJbz5UMPdjhXbel3Ss3pDpv7Yb0IxWY9qDlneARNaeMHd3nhvGwREobWgmdSMkigg0WQiWeuHnTXmcyxUnc3wTnAjdtCVqAdw8oQDQfpSrQNVnCOxsvuMoSarTcbXWVvHa2y%2B7OnbmfMB0ZagcVnyL1ftCtMyO%2F1v4nL1m14Qni8NFcr1Zxb%2BvoDJ7V0JzsBAAA%3D Sure 👍

[royal whale]

ty

whats the vision with both noble and invest here

[quaint cloud]

What do you mean by that

cause I can give a very broad answer that I don't think is helpful 😛

smh can't believe my two main scripts right now are pearly gates, the script that basically was unchanged from start to finish, and then a 4.0 version of whatever this is

[royal whale]

im focusing on the ysks to start with bc i agree that 4 ysks with xaan is odd and probably subpar

invest/noble have the potential to be very synergistic in a way that might be busted? idk i can't think of situations i've actually witnessed where both are on script much less in play so this is more of a gut read. the solution may well be "give better pings and not busted ones" idk but the friction stands out to me as a reason for one of those to potentially go to reduce the number of ysks

invest-mario is also a thing

[quaint cloud]

I think invest mario is fine tbh

Like I do think it can be broken and super strong but I think people fear it more than they should

[royal whale]

gotcha, as long as it's a conscious decision you've made i take no issue with that choice

[quaint cloud]

(Basically it gives you two minion candidates and 4 demon candidates, so 6 people of interest to look at, on a script with a xaan and a SW and an imp it's hard to get priced in. It's also a very strong evil bluff since not only does it distract town a lot it makes those players paranoid)

There is chafing between a few roles which includes noble/invest/VI, and then to an additional extent UT/Pixie

I don't include steward in this because it's much more restricted in scope than those roles and with spy / xaan 1 w/e

But the point is: these roles are very strong, they do a lot of similar things, something needs to give

I am priced into trying invest

Which is the core part of the drive for this script version

Because invest in means:

• Cannibal must go IMO, which means undertaker in
• Spy/Recluse with UT/Invest and VI is almost mandatory at that point

it is sad because I do think that core interaction that is from TB does rely on drunk a lot and drunk/xaan and drunk/kazali is something I know people have feelings about

I do think mario/vigor poison tempers it appropriately, maybe not as consistently as drunk would but enough for me to feel comfortable with it

[royal whale]

sure

why do you like steward here? i feel like it's overshadowed by all of pixie, noble, and vi

[quaint cloud]

steward is my beloved

but also yes it has been powercrept

Which means it probably must go

[royal whale]

i do think steward has environments where it works! i do not think this is one of them unfortunately

[quaint cloud]

It worked a version ago but no longer

well tbh

I think i'm in a spot where I think "Pick two YSK and kick them out" and if the two is pixie/noble then steward can stay and is happy imo

Steward works well on this script not necessarily because of what it does specifically but because of what role it fills

there's so many characters that want to go up to people and say "I trust you.", and steward so far has been a good part of that dynamic

[obsidian ridge]

I think the only one of your current demons that works on this version is Imp tbh

[royal whale]

oof yeah i just looked at the vigkill lineup

yeowch

[quaint cloud]

I don't think it's great but also I think people are a bit too close minded when it comes to vigor minion pairings, is what i'll say

Xaan is firmly good, spy is good, mario is something that depends on your opinion of mario, and SW is completely fair objection

[royal whale]

xaan can be good

[obsidian ridge]

It's a lesson from seeing and playing 1000 official app scripts that thought vigor mario worked

[royal whale]

but not if the number is 1 or 2

why is spy good

not a single character on this script cares if a dead player registers as good or not except undertaker which, notably, does not check night deaths

i guess vi

[quaint cloud]

I'm going to be very real, it's not something I really want to discuss further 🙈

I know both of your opinions of it well enough

[royal whale]

sure

does FT have a place here?

[quaint cloud]

FT is within the grab bag of characters that I think can go on yeah

FT was kicked off from earlier versions due to lack of script support but I think it has more of it now

I do think it is slightly above the power level I like for it

But also, meh

That's fine

[royal whale]

is there any world where king/choirboy is viable here

[quaint cloud]

I do think it's much better than having the YSK overlap

No probably not

spy recluse essentially

[royal whale]

that's what i thought

[quaint cloud]

Eugh, this is frustrating, I'm still worried about the "This is just going back to TB" in a lot of ways dynamic but I do think the script has a very solid core so it's just a question of where and how do differentiations get drawn

Like the heart of this script lies within Butler, Ogre, HP/General, VI, and then noble, steward, klutz play auxiliary roles

[royal whale]

is juggler anything

juggler-spy is super interesting to me (having seen it be discussed in a game a whole one time)

maybe its just too much of an evilfinder here

[quaint cloud]

Mario does work pretty well into this I think, someone made an observation that mario felt like it should be on this script socially mechanically and they kept getting confused it wasn't

Juggler spy I think is a bit brutal because if you cast a 5 player net, you basically have such a hard time trusting your info

Since spy just is a free +1/0 to a juggler number which can support any evil bluff

I do think juggler is great here thematically but I think it doesn't pan out enough

Maybe it works in the spy -> widow version hm

[royal whale]

is it problematic if jugglers are incentivized to juggle fewer players to get a clearer read?

[quaint cloud]

not necessarily

thinking about it a little more I don't dislike it that much

[royal whale]

i know adding more ysks isnt exactly the goal right now but i kinda love librarian here?

at least on first glance

[quaint cloud]

honestly yeah

[quaint cloud]

I'm reframing how I think of building this for a second, as the scope of this core set of interactions

In that set I think magician, juggler are what stand out for me a lot

god minion suite always such a mess

Pretty similar townsfolk suite to where this was earlier

(Earlier as in like, 6 months ago)

[royal whale]

oh welcome back cere and widow?

[quaint cloud]

the thing is I think this has more chafing in some areas but I think the core goal is achieved a lot more

I'm not sold on cere and widow tbh I still kinda don't want it but also minion space: sucks!

I think kicking off SW does a lot though

And kazali

[royal whale]

i think kicking off sw makes ft even stronger

[quaint cloud]

True didn't catch that

But I think there's plenty of replacements

But I actually kind of feel good about thsi version just because it brings a lot of TF I want to put here into the fold

[royal whale]

vig does have food now! i do appreciate that even if i still have Thoughts

how does the new magician-mario jinx work again

[quaint cloud]

uh I don't know is my honest answer

it's worded kind of shit

[royal whale]

iii guess you would show "this player is: marionette" and then shrug?

[quaint cloud]

maybe?? that could make sense

[royal whale]

i seem to remember a different jinx when the update dropped tho??

[quaint cloud]

Like strict reading of it makes me think you don't tell them about a mario but that feels very wrong

I like it because I like fucking over evil with magician and PG it's one of my favorite things but it feels very wrong

hm I don't actually dislike it that much if it's just a shrug

you get told it's a 50:50 between two people, you know you have a mario

[royal whale]

disagree, it says "the demon doesn't know which neighbor is the marionette" which to me reads very strongly as "the demon knows they have a marionette" because otherwise i imagine it would be phrased more as "if the magician is alive, the demon does not learn of a marionette" or something to that effect

[quaint cloud]

yeah that's just what my brain instantly went to but i'd never run it like that

the wording is just unclear

this version has one hell of a TF lineup

not in terms of mech power though it's not lacking in that, but like every role just has a lot of social similarities in a way that I would want

so i guess it's a matter of matching that to evil suites

[royal whale]

invest-juggler also seems synergistic, probably not to the extent where it becomes a problem?

[quaint cloud]

it feels similar to like twins in a way

[royal whale]

i worry that even if it's not particularly strong it still guides juggles

[quaint cloud]

that's true

also with VI

[royal whale]

oh yeah vi-noble and vi-invest is super powerful

just clocked that

[quaint cloud]

though VI naturally lessens problems because when you have VI, you have less of everything else 🤣

[royal whale]

so trueee

[quaint cloud]

Still exists but it always feels more wrong than I think in practice

how do people feel about xaan drunk

[royal whale]

i can totally believe that

[quaint cloud]

Ik my opinion but like do people get mad at it

I do not know

Cause I just usually avoid those interactions for ease

okay I searched and: people don't really like it

so that's fine with me

God I still feel drawn to spy though just because of the work it does for misreg for so many characters

[royal whale]

yeahhh

[wide valley]

spy is such a fun minion (no strong opinions on it here, just generally)

[obsidian ridge]

VI is a great way to solve several problems on a script and introduce several new ones

[royal whale]

so true!

[quaint cloud]

Did have a think, one thing about this script so far is that I’ve been writing it from evil team’s composition first, when I think this is very much a script I want to write townsfolk down

Also considering various combinations of demon pairings

I swear I’m gonna finish writing this script so damn hard

[obsidian ridge]

@quaint cloud have you considered "friendlybucket"

[quaint cloud]

yes.... yes.. I have

i made it balanced.

[obsidian ridge]

Looks good, excited to playtest

[fossil flax]

wait you were supposed to make surrounded balanced

[obsidian ridge]

Finally vigor mario scarlet works due to the heretic

[obsidian ridge]

Easy, remove the extra evils

[fossil flax]

well if you use the jackraw jinx—is shot and dies and loses ability

[quaint cloud]

the winrate will be even if it's at 0/0 🤔

surrounded will never be balanced or fair, i just hope I can make it fun

anyways axo don't show vati the draft I came up with ryan

[fossil flax]

Yeah but you did this by adding—awwww

but i wannaaaaa

[obsidian ridge]

[obsidian ridge]

(for readers unfamiliar)

[royal whale]

👀

[quaint cloud]

we're getting closer 🥲

i can fuck off soon

Not a big fan of spy + pixie so that was an easy one to go out of the YSK

Currently curious of peoples thoughts about juggler & recluse/spy

I like juggler/xaan personally and helps a lot from a script building perspective of guaranteeing spacing of xaan numbers

[royal whale]

recluse is a non issue

[quaint cloud]

idk i'm juggling people as mario all day because it's funny :^)

[royal whale]

ok then don’t juggle the recluse claim goofy

[quaint cloud]

who tells the truth on d1??

lame

[royal whale]

and even if you do because you don’t know, it’s still decent info

either one of these players is the mario OR you’re confirming the recluse

[quaint cloud]

also considering cere -> sw, mutant -> into whomever the hell but I think I like static ND here

[royal whale]

still suboptimal but that’s outsiders doing outsider things

[quaint cloud]

Other notable thing is ND / Farmer which i'm tenuous on

[royal whale]

you know the solution

[quaint cloud]

pretty easy for imp to bluff failed farmer though and xaan + spy does help

[royal whale]

it beckons you

[obsidian ridge]

don't worry, I'll save you some time

[quaint cloud]

thank you 🙏

Idk this townsfolk line fucks severely hard with the theme and it's just a "misinfo go" moment to counter it properly

Might want spy to have one or two more misreg roles, currently it's not doing as much as I think warrants it

(yes yes yes TB blah blah, pearly gates still has more TB roles on it 🫣)

(is coping)

[obsidian ridge]

Well yeah, Friendly Invitations doesn't have any roles on it

[quaint cloud]

it had lots of roles on it!!!!!!

[obsidian ridge]

true it's got all of friendlybucket

[royal whale]

i stare death in the face and stick out my tongue

oop ping sry

[royal whale]

one less channel i have to share with axo 👍

[obsidian ridge]

unfortunately I don't have removal perms for the mod role so I can't post an equivalent screenshot for her

some people have all the fun

[royal whale]

this is a lapse in judgment on david’s part i fear

[royal whale]

case in point!!

[quaint cloud]

anyways i'm pretty close to being wrapped up with this I think

[royal whale]

i’ll give better feedback when its not 10 of 3 am

[quaint cloud]

fielded some thoughts elsewhere and I am probably going to alter the invest/mario interaction

either by going Cere -> SW (which I am not a big fan of) or getting rid of mario

(I normally don't mind it but with juggler/VI/UT it is 100% untenable at it's current version imo)

[cerulean jasper]

and then Axo can feature this on script-a-day 🥳

[quaint cloud]

Not until I get the 7.0 update in 2 years

[quaint cloud]

eugh it is a shame because I want invest and mario but I do think I don't want their interaction

[quaint cloud]

Alright

Mario out SW back in

I'm of some mind to kick cere out but there's no viable replacement so cere & mutant stays

so excited

[rich socket]

whats the current state of the script?

[quaint cloud]

Friendly Invitations - December Update

(finally)

Townsfolk:
Pixie -> Slayer: Pixie needed to go due to an abundance of YSK, leading to a Xaan 1 stomp. Pixie spy is also kind of wack. Slayer fits the new group of TF and Recluse/Spy/SW.

Balloonist -> Investigator: Balloonist and Xaan is mid, and Balloonist felt awkward in play. Investigator provides town with a solid source of information to drive early game executions.

Savant -> Juggler: Savant just did not work how I wanted it to. Juggler was on this script previous but got removed due to mismatching misinfo. The new misinfo suite suits Juggler once again.

Huntsman -> Ravenkeeper: RK was on this script previously, but began to fail due to evils composition and lack of misreg. With spy back on RK is back home.

**Cannibal -> Undertaker:**Cannibal was too oppressive with the amount of OPG roles and strong YSK I wanted to test on this script, UT works well with spy/recluse and SW, keeping execution pressure on town.

Outsiders:
Damsel & Klutz -> Recluse & Mutant: Damsel unfortunately was not fun majority of the time. The script presence it had led players to make plans in far too secret and covert ways, which undermined the script. Mutant is a great semi-hidden outsider, and works with the theme. Recluse works great with this suite of TF, and gives evil a bluff they may need.

Minions:
Widow -> Spy: I never really liked widow on this script, the pairing it had with Xaan felt too awkward to me. The only issue is that spy did not fit the previous suite of townsfolk. Now, a spy has several characters they can hide from, as well as providing grim information on where info roles and demonsbane lay.

Demons:
Kazali & Vigor -> No Dashii:
With the new set of minions, Vigor began to make less sense. Now that widow is gone, ND is tenable again. Kazali may make a return in the future, but for now, we're reducing the variables and seeing what happens.

[quaint cloud]

does this answer your question

awkward

[rich socket]

LMAO

[quaint cloud]

😂

@fossil flax pin please 🥹

[rich socket]

only 2 demons!!!!

very cool tho looks fun

[quaint cloud]

big fan of lower demon count scripts

most of the time I find demons just are meh at best and scripts work best when it's not "oh and ojo is tecnhically here too" 🫣

[rich socket]

yeah very fair

[quaint cloud]

@tender lantern I will take your bribe as a check in the mail, thanks

[celest cape]

Gave +1 Thanks to @tender lantern (current: #187 - 302)

[rich socket]

i think this could now be considered a more beginner friendly custom without kaz and damsel and widow?

[quaint cloud]

probably yeah!

[rich socket]

(as in friendly to people familliar with b3)

[quaint cloud]

definitely not an ST friendly custom but overall it's pretty tame player wise

[rich socket]

mhm mhm

[quaint cloud]

lol

lmao

[jaunty bough]

Would lord of tycoon be fire here?

[quaint cloud]

Hmm, it could work with the theme but in it’s current iteration it’s got too many characters I think wouldn’t work

Just too much alignment and confirmation stuff

[jaunty bough]

No Dashi Win! I was storytelling, the noble meta'd that the noble pings its the minion (it was actually the demon)

It was a 7p game

[quaint cloud]

🥳

[jaunty elk]

I love the minion combos with Imp. Xaan poison may not occur if a player who died early on was starpassing; a Cere-mad player is unknowingly safe from execution because the Cere became the Imp later that night; Spy/Imp is a classic

Spy/Ogre is a combo I don’t love. An Ogre who becomes evil is brought into the evil team right away by Spy. Ogre bluffs to bait evils are less incentivized, unless you’re playing in person where the Spy can’t reliably communicate the full grim to other evils.

I love the Farmer here. Farmer is a top-tier Townsfolk already, and he fits the script theme perfectly. Farmer can make Spy an evil farmer. Spy can also scope out a Farmer poisoned by ND or Xaan and coordinate a demon kill that night, bluffing Farmer the next day.

I’m curious to know how ND/Xaan games go. Typically I would say that is too much droison, but both are controlled and potentially solvable, unlike the way Poisoner snipes tend to feel. I’m concerned about 7-9p games with ND and Xaan. Can a player safely assume that evil team is not in play?

For example: assume 7p game with ND, Xaan, and Butler, the least destructive Outsider. On N1, every TF is poisoned. N2, both neighbors of ND are poisoned, plus false info from evil players and non-info from Butler.

This is rough because both ND and Xaan are strong at low player counts

[quaint cloud]

I do not know, I've not had a chance to playtest this version as it's somewhat recent

I do think it can be too much droison, luckily xaan is mostly self balancing and in a smaller game can burn it's shot quickly. I do think it hinders a lot of bags but in xaan 1 + ND games at low player counts I just avoid pretty roles that are screwed over by n1 droison. So EN/EN* and N2 onwards roles

I think as player count increases I get less concerned by it though

[jaunty elk]

Ok cool, something to keep in mind if you’re ever testing at a low player count

[quaint cloud]

The unfortunate reality i've accepted is that this script as it stands does not have the characters it needs for me to build it to completion

So it's just finding the right compromises

If I ignored the vision of the script I think it'd be much easier, a la, vigormortis, kazali, widow, savant version that previous existed previously. But I think it's a step forward for what i'm trying to do

[jaunty elk]

That’s tough. Hope spring eternal for character releases!

This seems like a great script regardless. I would be excited to play it

[quaint cloud]

What I do like about this script is that it's served as an amazing excuse to put all of my favorite roles together so, lol, win regardless

[jaunty elk]

It’s convenient when your favorite roles synergize!

Why are these your favorites

[quaint cloud]

Out of these roles the ones i'd pick out as my "favorites" are, for TF, Steward, Noble, HP, General, and Fisherman/Juggler

Butler Ogre and Klutz all are my favorite outsiders (less so klutz) because of the dynamics they present. Especially ogre

Xaan, Spy and Cere are also some of my favorite minions.

Just in general they do a speccific thing I like, create social minigames for players. Not a single role on here can you sit back and not act on, you have trust chains to work around, people to protect, people to talk to, etc. Keeps the game exciting

[fossil flax]

.

no good player had the solve but it was just all vibes

and the vibes vibed

imp/cere/spy, the Cere turned imp got into a Cerenovus-madness doubleclaim with the Juggler and then caught the starpass after the Imp's Investigator info was proven bunk

Town was mostly building Xaan 1 by the end of it but landed on the right Demon, so score

[quaint cloud]

👀 would you be able to elaborate on what happened w/the invest bluff

[fossil flax]

cablebee claimed Invest seeing a Cere between Rita (the D1 execution) and Mel (the N3 kill), and town never reallly believed it due to how the Noble info fell but then after Mel died at night all eyes basically turned to cable and he starpassed

combined with the fact that both Acaila and Irish were claiming to be mad D3 it made it basically impossible to build a world with the investigator info as sober, and people didn't

overall I think the vibe you're going for is definitely closer here than in any other version, it's a lot of "the roles are made up and the info doesn't matter" socials-based gaming kinda like how TB/Strings sometimes goes

[snow blaze]

Hello! Just popping in to say I enjoyed this script and got axo to send it to me for my script folder. It was deffo a tough solve with where the kills were, and a couple of .....interesting claims from good players, but it ended up being very social, which is something I enjoy 🙂 Good food for a High Priestess bluff from the Spy too, which is something I always enjoy!

I still don't know who the second invest pings were coming from 😭 that confused me the entire game!

[fossil flax]

I think it was Foxx the Recluse bluffing Scarlet pings on Comi and Renard

then he backed into Slayer, then Ogre, then Recluse in final 3

[snow blaze]

I don't know what Foxx was doing in that game. 😭 I'm sure he was bluffing something else before Slayer too

"Slayer" shot the demon too

which i was pretty confident on

then double claimed my ogre that i trusted

I actually said to myself "Someone with the Spy grim would totes come to the juggler D2 with a High Priestess bluff" and I thought it felt a lil bit spy, but Foxx was just outing evil so hard I just had to trust comi

[quaint cloud]

internal screaming LETS GOO

[quaint cloud]

I'm glad to hear it!

[quaint cloud]

Glad to hear this as well, as this is the type of script presence I wanted spy to have

[snow blaze]

I think it's a very fun though under utilised interaction. My very first game with HP was the day after it released, I was a no dashii who took it as a bluff, my spy gave me the grim right away and told me the Philo had gone Philo HP on night 1. Bluffing drunk HP with a spy grim was an absolute delight and one of my best early evil wins, so I'm eternally fond of it

[fossil flax]

another good win!

[naive crane]

I still really like this script and I cannot explain why

[quaint cloud]

🥳

[quaint cloud]

Evil win! Fun scenario where dire got trusted from a confluence of info, and then confirmed lepakon the SW who was passed to

Notable moment was on d2, lila was up for the block, and then they slayer shot the demon 🫣

was so close to the mutant dream, but I trusted lepa over miles in f3.

I really like the script where it's at, felt like a good measure between soupy and actionable info. Can see it being a bit swingy but it was a fun game

[quaint cloud]

alrighty let me take a quick review now that i've seen a good few playtests of it

I think stand out characters are steward/noble/HP/VI/Juggler, which I think is exactly what I hoped this version would do

I think I still like the TF suite, would need to see more to want to change anything tbh

Outsiders- I think butler/ogre is still good, recluse has to exist on this version as it stands

[quaint cloud]

I think mutant is excellent on this, and nothing can ever change my opinion of it tbh. super happy I drew the token here and it fit exactly what I wanted it to be and I think it has an excellent place here

Spy, simply great. I was a little tenuous on it but seeing it in the game above has shown the impact it has on players trust chains, which was the goal. Xaan is also great here and I think it has a great dynamic with ogre/mutant as it stands

I think ND / Xaan / SW can be a lot still and I do think it changes the dynamic a ton. But also I think this is a script where having droisoned info isn't really like, the point. It'll defenitelly stomp some games but it's needed for script presence

This version is the one I am by far most happy with and glad I took the time to really sit with it and refine it, because I think where the script stands it's hitting right where I wanted it to 🥳

Will probably leave it as is while it gets run over time and see if any nudges need to be made for the game feel to improve

[obsidian ridge]

I trusted lepaYou wouldn't make this mistake if you played more livetext

[rich socket]

Good win in F3!

[fossil flax]

friendly invitations flowchart:
demon type?
imp -> good wins
dashii -> evil wins

[rich socket]

axolator try not to extrapolate flowcharts from undercovered data sample challenge

[quaint cloud]

friendly invitations flowchart flow chart:
imp is winning games and no dashii is losing games?
demon type?
imp -> evils wins
dashii -> good wins

no dashii is winning games and imp is losing?
demon type?
demon type?
imp -> good wins
dashii -> evil wins

[fossil flax]

hey I've been right so far

[fossil flax]

.

livetext good win!

the mutant was ceremad d1 so just decided to out so town knew what Minions were in play - the Xaan bluffed general info swinging evil, which got them executed, and the Fisherman confirming her starpassed to the cerenovus bluffing Investigator

[quaint cloud]

awkward~1

[fossil flax]

the ending Demon (starting cere) was slayer-shot D1 (on the xaan day) and self-cered D2 but the other major Demon candidates were confirmed some other way

was still a very social game at the end of the day, very vibeslop (positive)

[quaint cloud]

me asking the lunch lady if they have any extra vibeslop

(they don't)

[fossil flax]

what's the fucking point

https://tenor.com/view/boomshakalaka-gif-25687559

[quaint cloud]

tomorrow they'll have more

[fossil flax]

oh

okay <3

yay <3

[jaunty bough]

General as a bluff meta remains being true...

[quaint cloud]

For those who are going to F3Con, I am running Friendly Invitations there at 2-4PM on Friday! 🫡 🥳

[celest cape]

Above time (16:00 EST) in your local time · Feb 11, 2026, 9:00 PM

[quaint cloud]

“New Bootlegger Rule:
The Magician does not register as a townsfolk to the No Dashii.”

Bootlegger rule shade came up with I am definitely not eye-ing

Probably not going to do anything about it but it solves the interaction in a way I like, so in the future could see what comes with it

[fossil flax]

there's a magician on this version?

[quaint cloud]

There is not, but I love magician and believe it has a place here

But it’s never worked with ND

[fossil flax]

.

holy shit the imp actually won a game

the invest info came out on d4 and that was the same day the ogre who had caught the strawpass broke madness to tell people so it was tough to finagle a solve from that

but Whee just slid under the radar

[naive crane]

Imp has lower winrate on this script? Why?

[quaint cloud]

We are still at low enough sample size that the answer is probably just RNG

[naive crane]

Challenge accepted

[quaint cloud]

Sorry everyone the sample size is DISASTROUSLY LOW

We need A THOUSAND RUNS of this script ASAP

[jaunty bough]

Quick game where the high priestess found out pretty quick that he was no dashi poisoned and the slayer shoot the demon dead day 1.

[royal whale]

...how did the HP figure out he was poisoned...?

[jaunty bough]

Day 1 ravenkeeper next to them.

[royal whale]

that's... a very useful conversation to have

[jaunty bough]

Day 2 he got the single poisoned Village Idiot and figured out that the village idiot is poisoned.

I dont know how he did figure out this stuff.

[jaunty bough]

Also the VI got the demon as evil day 1 so that too

[quaint cloud]

many such cases

[jaunty bough]

Also the ogre was made cerenovus mad as the ogre the whole game

So like evil team was so unlucky

[quaint cloud]

Ran this in person last night!

Ignore the reminder tokens lol, we had a reminder token kerfuffle so I had to use replacements.

Invest saw Xaan and the top left VI. The VI in between evils was the drunk one. Noble pings on the cere, juggler, and mutant

The cerenovus played a blinder of a game, made solving Xaan super hard

Made the UT mad as the farmer on f5, which led to a win when people distrusted the claim.

[quaint cloud]

Evil win!

The minions and demon all played great social games!

With the demon faking cere & bluffing ogre, looking like a minion, the spy being night killed subtly going into final day, and the SW being most trusted in f3

With this and after text playtests ( #1489668779314118887 ), I’ll be pushing a new update soon ™

Probably just minor changes but who knows, maybe I’ll turn this into friendlybucket for real

[quaint cloud]

Friendly Invitations - May 2026 Update

-# Holy shit, a friendly invitations update, that only took 3 hours to decide upon? Who is this imposter

Overall, this update is a reversion to the previous script version's evil team, with a suspiciously chair shaped, and suspiciously lamp shaped townsfolk addition.

Townsfolk:
Fisherman -> Savant: This is "Savant in", and not Fisherman out. Savant is a role that excels at this scripts vision, while Fisherman mildly jogs at it. Additionally, given the return of Widow, higher tier Townsfolk are in order. Savant, while in an environment I usually don't like, is worth an additional round of testing, and hopefully can stick!

Slayer -> Nightwatchman: The main issue I had with NWM was Xaan and Cannibal, with the staying of Invest, Cannibal is simply not an option, leaving space for NWM to take it's time in the spotlight, or streetlight, I suppose.

Outsiders:
Recluse -> Klutz: While Recluse works great with several roles, I question it's overall inclusion. I believe evil overall have enough misinformation opportunities, and don't need further script support. Klutz fits very well with the theme, and deserves another shot. Recluse potentially could return, as I believe it's an excellent excuse and bluff for evil, but time will tell if they need it.

Minions:
Spy -> Widow: I don't think Spy did enough, point blank. Without roles such as Washerwoman or Librarian, it did not have the script presence I hoped, and now gets to be swapped for it's weird 8 legged cousin.

Demons:
No Dashii -> Vigormortis & Kazali: No Dashii is one hell of a workhorse, and while I believe it helped balance the misinformation/info balance, it created weird meta issues with Xaan I could not ignore. Vigor and Kazali are the best three Demon trio for this script IMO, and should all give enough misinformation.

(Whicher mod/minion sees first, pin please!) 🙏

Keep your eyes peeled for the fated release of Friendly Bucket, soon™

[jaunty bough]

Love this!!!!!

[quaint cloud]

Will share for those curious my anecdotal conclusions from the playtesting of the previous versions

First I think the lack of demon variety was the biggest downgrade from the previous version, ND's interaction with Xaan was a really tough pill for players to swallow in 1m games, and the ND/SW fear was very transparent. I think a big boon this demon suite had was the constant guessing of "is this person vigor killed and is this person just a kazali minion" helped a ton with forward momentum of games.

Spy sucked a lot more than I expected to! I think Spy realistically just needs direct YSK roles like washerwoman and librarian, and I don't think those fit here. Somehow no juggler ever meaningfully chose a recluse or spy despite racking those roles together several times lol. But while I like the excuse it gives to VI / UT, I think widow poison will just do so much more

Cerenovus being the solo loud minion sucks so bad. While it will always be an awkward interaction in 1m, I think the demon variety at least helps a little more. I think Cere fits here so well and if it wasn't for lack of minion variety forcing SW onto the script, it'd be much nicer. Double loud/double quiet is much more palatable.

I liked mutant a lot whenever I put it in, I saw only one break and they were like, literally a child who was upset that they drew the token lmfao. (They got ceremadded day two and got executed again lol.)
Ogre continues to be king, I didn't actually rack butler a lot because I have a massive butler bias and have been counteracting it.

Invest is great here, and at no point in the previous version did I feel that VI/Invest/UT was too overpowering. But I also avoided those bags.

General is nice here, just please don't run it 5*, this is a script where they deserve firm info

[obsidian ridge]

I remember thinking 3 star sucked in viiii/that I would 100% have run 5 star if I went in with perfect knowledge

[quaint cloud]

it might be a bit different consideration in text tbh, i haven't thought about it. but I have bounced back to 3* being my preferred way to run it

[obsidian ridge]

(I think the things I was thinking about here would ~all apply to this version)

notably, the No Dashii versions of FI were more like the issue I had in bpaj

(but FI has always had more execution checkers)

[quaint cloud]

my main issue with 5* is I think for most STs it has a really bad signal to noise ratio

which, is sort of true for the character as a whole?

[jaunty bough]

I dont think final nail its a good comparison to this script, it for me always felt like social strings without marionette and without leech

And with a more hardcore type feel when thinking about it a lot

[obsidian ridge]

I don't think there's much of a "Social Strings without Marionette or Lleech", they're pretty loadbearing there

But the comparison is more about where General works and doesn't than it is about the details

[jaunty bough]

I am more in the means of how it feels for me thou