#Law & Disorder

295 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

native marten
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first draft, ignore night order, not done yet, just posting to share ideas for others to use & to get initial feedback on where rewording or balancing is needed. made in bloodstar, almanac coming sometime soonish

native marten
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i plan to replace Prophet and Flirt with more reasons for good to nominate & another good death control role & maybe some misregistration to nerf Reporter & Prosecutor & Coroner without hurting Chiroptress. also custodian shouldnt be able to kill the demon so needs chages

fast vale
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Bewbon should have a killing mech to fit in with the script

native marten
# fast vale Bewbon should have a killing mech to fit in with the script

maybe, it was originally "Players you nominate gain this ability & might die tonight. Evil wins if all alive players have this ability", which i might revert to, but not sure if it needs the extra kills with 3 killing minions and multiple reasons for no deaths?
i kind of think of it as a zombuul parallel where it's bluffable by other demons and really powerful until people start to notice the slow death rate (after which the counterplay is to suspect nominators & 'isolate' unnominated players)

silk mirage
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does the arsonist kill any player of STs choice, or one of the characters they chose?

native marten
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hopefully "1 of them" will make that clearer

maiden radish
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Prophet is so interesting, I like the idea of it

native marten
# maiden radish Prophet is so interesting, I like the idea of it

thanks! ive tried to make a Saint inspired role thats more active & more interesting to bluff. i also like the interaction of it seeing the Demon so that not all pings are assumed good. i was considering replacing it on this script with some Demon misregistration but i might keep it, not sure yet

wicked pagodaBOT
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Gave +1 Thanks to @maiden radish (current: #1547 - 2)

maiden radish
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Yeah I'm just trying to think of a reason for it to not try to die day 1 or for it to hide

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Like it's a role I think could easily work with official characters

native marten
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My design goal was to make all of these fit at least somewhat well with official characters (i know a lot of homebrews don't, it's a preference) so im glad it seems to achieve that

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and the reason to hide would just be to die at night and waste a kill, but like saint it needs to out if the ping is on the block and i think thats ok

maiden radish
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Filibuster I don't think dissuades open outsider executions cause it just proves that player is either an outsider or the demon, and proves a filibuster is in play
Prophet seeing itself every night is not interesting. Like it's fun to do once per game at most, but if it sees themselves n1 obviously they're not gonna advocate for their own execution.
Barber on S&V usually doesn't try to get executed day 1 from what I've seen cause they're normally trying to see if it's a Fang Gu game first (or if it's base 0, they know) and then get jumped
I disagree design-wise that a player who wants to be executed early is outsider-y, not just cause of phrasing (sailor for example), but assuming you mean "want to be executed and die early" I think that's not really an interesting design goal/game for the outsider player to be playing. Furthermore, having a safe execution target early that's food for UT/cannibal/Vortox-type characters isn't really all that harmful to good, other townsfolk being executed in their place would be more harmful

maiden radish
maiden radish
# native marten and the reason to hide would just be to die at night and waste a kill, but like ...

The difference with this and the saint is this has the potential to (and in most games, likely will) move. So the prophet trying to bait the demon to kill them is good, it's more potentially destructive to do that as you risk getting the player you saw executed without outing (and then demon won't kill you foiling your plan, and making you look like a minion) whereas the saint's ability is localized to themselves so they can control things more directly when trying to bait the demon because they won't be volunteering to be executed, unlike a possible prophet target.
I explained that poorly but I hope you can see what I'm getting at?

native marten
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yeah, i think those are some very good points - would "even if you are dead" fix this issue? and is this needed for Merrymaker too?

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it could even be "Each night, if you are dead" to make it one of those outsiders who only becomes detrimental when dead but i think an alive evil player being able to bluff getting Prophet pings is interesting

maiden radish
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Even if dead would work, but then the Prophet can't attempt the "bait the demon" strategy at all, so I don't know, it's up to how you'd want it to play out
If I was making it or adapting this for my own group, I'd probably do something a little lame like adding the saint's ability on top of it, or something even worse like "if you are mad you should be executed, your team loses" until someone smarter/more experienced came up with a prettier solution

maiden radish
native marten
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adding the saint's ability would work, ill have to think whether i prefer that to even if dead.
i don't like forced madness so probably not the latter.

maiden radish
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Yeah I don't like it either

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I don't think merrymaker needs any extra clause cause it has incentive to hide to try and soft check its neighbors or catch an evil in an impossible lie, so if the player wants to opt out of it, it's their loss and they already potentially screwed up their neighbors if they're a first night or day role

native marten
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true

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this script does generally avoid 'spent' roles so "it's already harmed good" is less applicable but like it does have that empath-by-deduction benefit + potentially drunking Prophet Clairvoyant (after n1) and Ghost is a nice bonus

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actually about that i need to think abt if rules-as-written a drunk ghost appears dead, loses their vote token, etc

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i intend for a drunk Ghost to just prevent minions from being converted. ill probably just make it an almanac clarification bc registering as alive is weird like Zombuul (who registers as dead even if drunk afaik)

maiden radish
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From just the first night, on this script alone, it can fuck up clair, manager, double agent, reporter, forensics, quizzer, and prophet, which is a pretty good spread, almost half the good roles, so you've got decent odds hitting one on the first night, if both neighbors are good

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So I'd say "it's already harmed good" is kinda applicable here, but yes, it's not AS harmful as it hitting OPG roles

maiden radish
native marten
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oh so their vote token isnt taken when they vote?

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Ghost is intended to never spend theirs otherwise it's very unfun for the player (plus it obviously helps evil to have voting dead minions)

maiden radish
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Yes technically the drunk zombuul's vote token wouldn't be taken away iirc, but the zombuul isn't ever told they're drunk, and it's unlikely they'd use their vote token if they knew they were drunk because they'd immediately be exposed as the zombuul.
But also, most drunking abilities that I can think of only affect living players, only other one I can think of is Innkeeper, so it'd be hard to drunk them anyway

maiden radish
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The one thing that might be weird is if the pattern of night deaths, especially given these demons, makes it too obvious that the ghost died

native marten
wicked pagodaBOT
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Gave +1 Thanks to @maiden radish (current: #1384 - 3)

maiden radish
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I'm not totally sure if that's how the script would run, I'd need to look closer, but there seems to be a lot of telegraphing which causes occurred, so there's only a couple worlds where ghost died vs didn't die

native marten
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i think ill need to make Ghost "You register as alive, even if drunk/poisoned", i dont want voting to confirm Ghosts

maiden radish
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Seems good

echo pier
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Because if it pings a minion that's huge for good

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And if it never pings a minion then that's info

echo pier
echo pier
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Also ghost seems SUPER powerful for evil considering there are 3 minions who can kill themselves and multiple other reasons that there can appear to be no deaths in the night

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Do they register as dead for evil wincon?

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Also, I see why double agent is a townsfolk but again, imo it's questionable until thoroughly playtested

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Double agent chiroptress also seems like a bad interaction

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Ok I'm looking at the script more and while I think chiro COULD work, this isn't the script for it

native marten
echo pier
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Evil doesn't have a way to really learn their team in every bag

native marten
echo pier
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Verrrry powerful

maiden radish
echo pier
native marten
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double agent like flirt was added late and will probably be changed or replaced

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i think its a fun concept but the interactions with other script characters are not so well thought out

echo pier
native marten
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im pretty attached to the chrioptress idea so id rather remove bad interactions than remove her

echo pier
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I do think it's cool

maiden radish
maiden radish
native marten
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as for Ghost being too good for evil, it definitely could be. it's a good player that can always vote and nominate freely & kills into it will be wasted, but maybe it should only convert the first minion to die at night? not sure

echo pier
# echo pier I do think it's cool

But it doesn't (seem to) play nice with:
Double agent ghost kamikaze
And it's questionable with:
Custodian vigilante flirt prohibitionist

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I really want to like this character

maiden radish
native marten
echo pier
echo pier
native marten
echo pier
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Maybe yeah

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Great start tho

maiden radish
echo pier
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I really love forensics survivalist quizzer prosecutor and Cerberus btw

native marten
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thx

echo pier
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Which is maybe really strong?

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Well the ghost might also want to stay hidden so evil doesn't know it's available for them to take advantage of

maiden radish
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I don't think it's too strong because the ghost will likely hide— yeah exactly

echo pier
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I think playing both ways are probably viable

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Which is perfect

maiden radish
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I agree

echo pier
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Also is vigilante busted or am I missing something

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It's kind of a good psychopath

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Does evil just kill them the first day they claim? Because if not aren't you confirming an evil sometimes?

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Idk you've probably thought this through more than me

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Oh also why wouldn't everyone claim it

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I feel like the meta might become "ok everyone let's all claim vigilante and pick Jon, if he's the demon we win if not we'll all pick Sara tomorrow" and so on

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It becomes kind of like a bonus execution

maiden radish
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I think vigilante would be on the watchlist for playtesting, but I don't think it's immediately busted. I think it may need an "if good" phrase

echo pier
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Something along those lines?

native marten
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yeah it goes last to kill in night so if they pick a Demon they or a minion can kill the Vigilante. and theres many reasons for it to fail. and others claiming it is intended like Gossip but if everyone picks the same person it is kinda boring.

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maybe should be once per game

echo pier
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"choose someone that wasn't chosen today"

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Maybe?

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It definitely prevents everyone from choosing the same person

native marten
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oh then evil can vigilante pick their own demon also

echo pier
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Though now the order of claims matters

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Ok maybe not that

native marten
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yeah

echo pier
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Maybe add that if some threshold of players pick the same person, it doesn't proc

maiden radish
echo pier
native marten
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i initially had this:

Therapist (Outsider) Once per game, at night, choose a player. A chosen evil Townsfolk becomes good. [1 Townsfolk is evil]

which made the possibility of an evil Vigilate more suspicious

maiden radish
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Mfw I am Spartacus

echo pier
echo pier
native marten
native marten
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(and i prefer to stick to the Ravenswood Bluff character counts)

echo pier
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Fraud is a good take on drunk

native marten
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its kinda weird to me that the Drunk doesnt register as drunk since it would remove the need for its jinxes

maiden radish
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Am I stupid? Since when does drunk have jinxes

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Unless you're talking about the acrobat ruling, which isn't a jinx

echo pier
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^ I just skimmed the list

native marten
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maybe im stupid x)

echo pier
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Lol ur good

maiden radish
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^

echo pier
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I think registering as drunk or not doesn't make a real difference on most scripts

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As long as it's consistent

native marten
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yeah i was just completely wrong that has never been a thing lol

echo pier
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I was gonna say it pings a mathematician this way but actually no it doesn't

maiden radish
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Anyways if you're married to Chiro, I'd suggest combing through any potential bad interactions and checking how certain demon/minion interactions cover for each other if you want the demon type to be a question. Besides any other iteration you wanna do, after that I'd suggest a couple play tests with different set ups to get those under your belt, a lot of stuff is just theory until you actually see it in practice and how players interact with it. I'd suggest getting as large a group as you're comfortable running because the more opinions/perspectives you get the more likely you are to receive good constructive criticism

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From there your iterations can become a lot more targeted and goal-oriented than just "make sure nothing breaks"

echo pier
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Wooo game design!

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Honestly I think chiro would go really hard as a solo demon

native marten
maiden radish
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Chiro as solo demon would be so terrifying lmfao

echo pier
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Yeah lol

maiden radish
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"did they only pick 2 players last night or did they just find a minion"

echo pier
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There needs to be a reason for minions to die at night but still

echo pier
maiden radish
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Oh shit yeah sorry

native marten
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yeah

maiden radish
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I'm sleepy

echo pier
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Understandable

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I probably should've been asleep an hour ago but here I am

maiden radish
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Same lol

echo pier
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Sleep is for the weak (and it's the weekend)

maiden radish
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Nah you shouldn't have edited that

native marten
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same, thx for the help & gn :)

maiden radish
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The pun was better

echo pier
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((shhhh it's not technically Monday in my time zone what are you talking about))

maiden radish
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Goodnight, no problem, happy to try to help

echo pier
maiden radish
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Mhm

echo pier
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Random thing I remembered, filibuster should probably say "first time they die" because good has multiple ways to kill that aren't executions

native marten
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v2 changelog

-Flirt
-Double Agent

  • Lawyer (TF) (if they defend a player from execution, that player is safe from the demon tonight)
  • Shaman (TF) (1st executee keeps their ability)

Prophet: +Even if dead
Ghost: +Even if drunk/poisoned
Minions who die at night -> The 1st Minion to die at night

Kamikaze: Cannot pick the Demon
Filibuster: Protects from 1st death (not just execution)
Scorpse: Shorter ability text, mechanically identical
Bewbon: Plagued players might die the night they were infected
Custodian: 0-3 changed to 0-2

image.png
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i dont know how to pin this

maiden radish
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I feel like there's not enough reasons for good to nominate to allow Bewbon to safely nominate (good can just not execute for the first two days cause kamikaze can only act once)

native marten
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I do want to add more reasons for good to nominate once someone is on the block, though

maiden radish
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Oh my god I'm blind

native marten
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lol its ok

maiden radish
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I was thinking maybe vigilante has to publicly claim while nominating? It would help balance the number of people claiming vigilante and encourage good players without the vigilante role to nominate (or without the prosecutor role)

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And it works thematically

native marten
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thats a cool idea

maiden radish
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Vigilante tried to get them punished through the legal system, if they survive execution or aren't put on the block, they seek vigilante justice that night

native marten
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yeah that fits really well, thankyou

undone mountain
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What’s the night order, particularly with regard to Prohibitionist?

Other than Merrymaker, each source of drunking occurs attached to an info role Townsfolk. Those abilities typically go after any killing roles. But Prohibitionist’s requirement that if it kills a drunk player, no one else dies tonight suggests it goes before killers.

If the order is the intuitive kill blockers > killers > info roles, then Prohibitionist can only ever have a mechanical effect on the game if Merrymaker is in-play, alive, and neighboring two good players. (Note if Merrymaker neighbors the Prohibitionist it may also drunk them.) I’d be really hesitant in that situation to have Prohibitionist on-script as it is therefore a blank token in the vast majority of setups

native marten
undone mountain
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Then how does it block deaths?

native marten
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manager would be last as a General-like role

native marten
maiden radish
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Prohibitionist would go in the night order same time as like Monk

native marten
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yeah but then self drunking roles dont die

maiden radish
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Yeah they would

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If they're drunk and have been chosen to die by another effect, they would die and no one else would

undone mountain
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Unless you flip night order such that info roles go first (awkward for demon), or change sources of droison, or have the droison somehow last until mid-night-phase the next night (really awkward infrastructure) yeah there are difficulties tying kill blocking to learned info, although it’s a neat idea of trying to confirm info

maiden radish
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Huh?

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I thought it was just (for the purposes of this discussion, not every role)
Things that can droison
Protection
Demon
Other kills
Info

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And this functions being placed into the protection bucket

undone mountain
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Such that raw “things that can droison” is tied to one Outsider and only when both living neighbors are good

native marten
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N1
reporter self-drunks and recieves false info N1
they become sober at dusk

N2
the prohibitionist picks them, they were sober so do not die
the reporter then acts again and self-drunks again
oops they weren't meant to wake, actually they die and everyone else is safe

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so yeah Mabel is right it doesnt work well

undone mountain
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It’s too niche unless it includes the info, and then yeah the problem is it creates a paradox in the night order if whether someone earlier survives to wake depends on a later player’s choice/info

native marten
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yeah you cant really have a role that acts after info roles and protects before demon kills

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the idea sadly just doesnt work well

maiden radish
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Maybe change it to "you are drunk until you are woken again"?

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But yeah you guys are right, it does break

undone mountain
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Well, I’ll say my homebrew does but it gets weird… The Dark in #1145609319455395890 is a chambermaid-like role who redirects rather than blocks kills, but based it on last night’s waking pattern for exactly this reason

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That said FYF is a higher complexity script than most homebrews should be, so I don’t advise just borrowing its character architecture 😅

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It’s a lot more strain on the ST, and FYF is meant to be an extremely advanced script to Storytell

native marten
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that is a possible solution but it feels less like the TPI characters (which is a design goal im aiming for, personal preference of mine) and would mean it doesnt interact well with official characters like Sailor and Innkeeper

undone mountain
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Yup was just putting out there a possibility but in TPI-like space yes that goal is hard to achieve for exactly that reason

native marten
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i think ill have to replace it with another Good killing role and consider adding some sortof drunk detection too tho that feels slightly less necessary

native marten
maiden radish
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It looks so cool and I love the ideas on it

undone mountain
maiden radish
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I want to homebrew a couple lower complexity spin-offs of some of the characters, but I know me nor my group would EVER be able to play that thing it's SO big brain lmfao

maiden radish
native marten
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tbh im not great at scriptbuilding yet, im just very passionate abt homebrews so have kind of rushed into this so the community advice has been rly helpful empath

echo pier
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I assume yes to both of these

native marten
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  1. yes, but ive been thinking abt Lawyer and im gonna make it stronger
  2. yes
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ill see if i can adjust the wording to make that more clear

echo pier
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Also scorpse is technically mechanically different now but that's not really an issue

native marten
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oh?

echo pier
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Before it had to kill a TF on no choice right

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Now that's not forced

native marten
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oh technically it can kill 2 non-townsfolk now, i guess

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yeah

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maybe i revert it

echo pier
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Not really an issue just pointing it out

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It's ST decision anyway

native marten
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yeah

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i think the previous version was more clear and would make them less afraid to kill 2 minions N2

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not like its excessively long anyway

echo pier
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Shaman vigilante does nothing right

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Because otherwise it's OP but as written being dead stops vigilante from working even if they have an ability

native marten
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correct, the vigilante does not live when dead

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well either way, as we discussed earlier, im changing it to only vigilante pick via nominations

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and dead cant nom

echo pier
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Also works

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I still don't like the chiro ghost interaction, it feels like chiro can't get consistent info that way

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Maybe ghost turned minions learn the demon or smth?

native marten
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hmm

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that would feel out of place in a non-chiro ghost script (im trying to avoid making them dependent on each other)

echo pier
native marten
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i think maybe chiro could only fail kills when picking a Minion

echo pier
native marten
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i dont rly like doing that

echo pier
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Understandable

native marten
echo pier
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Hmm maybe

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Double agent also stops being a bad interaction lol

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Actually I like that bc one strong play is to start by picking 3, then double tapping all of them if they don't die

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High risk high reward ofc

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If 2 die the second time, you've found a minion turned ghost

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Ofc if there's no ghost they just don't die n3

native marten
echo pier
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Yeah makes sense

native marten
echo pier
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It feels a lot like cult leader with a bit of VI thrown in

native marten
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yeah

echo pier
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What happens if a kamikaze picks a chiro?

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Do they just learn "no that's the demon pick someone else"?

native marten
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as intended, they may pick again

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yeah

echo pier
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Cool

native marten
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its a bit janky but i think it works

echo pier
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What if the chiro picks kamikaze and someone else, then the kamikaze picks that same person

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Mechanically it works but the chiro thinks they just killed 2 good players

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(assuming no ghost rn)

native marten
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yeah thats unfortunate but i dont think it needs changes

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lack of coordination is the main downside and scenarios like that hopefully would make finding the team more of a fun puzzle

echo pier
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Oh and if a chiro picks kamikaze, spent ghost, and the kamikaze's pick then it's even more misinfo for evil

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What if: "each night*, choose 1-3 players: if all are good, all die, and you learn this. Evil players don't learn each other."

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Or "...if none are minions..."

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I feel like it's still a puzzle to solve but unfun if there are false positives, this ensures no false positives

native marten
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v3 !

Deletions
-Lawyer (felt like a worse Monk, and could not find a rework i liked)
-Prohibitionist (did not work well with night order & other characters on script)

Additions
+Paramedic (If deaths>=3, 1 lives, Paramedic learns player)
this helps limit the number of deaths each night and gives the ST more freedom to balance and encourages the Cerberus & Chiroptress to kill more slowly
+Entomologist (OPG sees how many dead players neighbour the Demon)
this learns 0 1 or 2 & is easy to bluff & gets more powerful if they're patient & gets actionable info, all of which i like in once per game roles

Changes
~Renamed Forensics to Forensic Tech (an abbreviated form of 'forensic science technician' is more fitting than just the word for the field of study. i wish English had a shorter word for this!)
~Forensic Tech & Reporter missing their targets is now 'arbitrary info' instead of 'drunk until dusk' (prohibitionist interaction no longer exists, now matches Shugenja)
~Chiroptress now learns if she killed or not
~Vigilante now must publicly claim whilst nominating to target another player

image.png
maiden radish
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Me and my girlfriend really like Entomologist, we're not sure if the flavor is quite there (we're assuming analyzing insects feasting on dead bodies near the demon being different or fleeing or something), but the effect is unique and fun, it can be pretty damning though in some game states I think, and useless in some others so it's weird

echo pier
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I was gonna say something similar yeah

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It's not super useful early making it a pretty good target to kill

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I think it's a character that can become too swingy without droison. But that's fine there's droison here

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It also encourages evil to rethink their killing power which is cool

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Also I really like chiro now :)

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Interestingly scorpse is the only demon I'd expect to consistently kill n2

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Bewbon killing immediately is kinda sad, chiro will often spread the net wide to start learning their team (though that's up to them), and Cerberus is incapable of killing n2

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It's an interesting quirk and I think I like it

echo pier
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Oh I just realized the ghost ento interaction

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Also rules as written a coroner would learn minions that die at night even if they turn into ghosts

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Since ghost registers as dead at night

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Feels too powerful considering it's the passive component of the ability

maiden radish
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That's valid, they only learn the player that died, but they'd be able to figure out what happened the day after when they aren't announced as dead

echo pier
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Vigilante can prob be reworded (though the mechanic is the same): if you nominated someone today while publicly claiming to be the Vigilante, they die tonight

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I don't think "if you live" is necessary, that's a basic rule of the game and there's no need to "jinx" it with shaman anymore

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Uhhh what's the survivalist Cerberus interaction? Cerberus has to choose them 3 times to kill?

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Yeah ok looking through it I think that's what it has to be. Which is probably fine because Cerberus feels like the biggest "kill power" demon on this script

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Besides chiro but she's special

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Paramedic kamikaze is an interesting interaction. I could imagine kamikaze being saved if good is sweeping. Would you still rather kamikaze loses their ability after that?

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Without that I don't think "once per game" is needed at all

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Oh wait shaman lol

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Ok I solved that for myself

native marten
# maiden radish Me and my girlfriend really like Entomologist, we're not sure if the flavor is q...

yeah, my mental image was someone inspecting the flies and beetle grubs around the corpses with the animalistic demons attracting more of them. but like a few others i might eventually change these once i start writing the flavour text because for now the script is thematically inconsistent besides most following a modern legal & spiritual theme - inspiration from the ace attorney series which i love :)

mechanically it does have very varied power but the idea is that evil players, who have a much stronger control over kills, can play around this by making the Demon's "Ento number" the "mode" so that a sober Entomologist number doesn't eliminate over half the town. also as Hysterex pointed out there is drunkenness and pseudo-misregistration via Ghosts

native marten
native marten
native marten
# echo pier Paramedic kamikaze is an interesting interaction. I could imagine kamikaze being...

It's intended for paramedic to be able to save evils because then it works as a balancing tool & doesn't allow the Paramedic to assume all learned players are good (though like Pacifist it's a TF that a good ST should usually use to help good) - but as you realised i don't want to make Kamikaze an 'each night*' since that'd allow a Shaman Kamikaze to kill each night which is horrible for good

echo pier
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Just realized BMR -goon +snitch +chiro would be super fun

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Maybe jinx godfather and chiro so gf doesn't accidentally kill them

native marten
native marten
long depot
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This script looks cool as hell, so many interesting characters. Especially the Demons, they fit together so nicely (from looking at it and not having played it).

native marten
wicked pagodaBOT
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Gave +1 Thanks to @long depot (current: #7 - 828)

sour warren
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If ghost is "alive" during final 3 the game just ends, right?

native marten