#Clarification on Experimental VS Regular Channels

303 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

radiant bronze
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One of the looming questions I personally have that I haven't been able to see a satisfying answer to is what determines if a game should go in experimental or regular.

The biggest 3 examples I can think of off the top of my head are:
Multicolored madness - Experimental
TB + 1 (Or even TB+4) - Regular
Bad TB/BMR/SnV - Regular

Multicolored madness is 3 games run at once. No game rule changes, there are just 3 games in one channel at once.
TB + 1/2/3/4 has no defined script and is a wild card ST wise, there is one rule change in the form of no script being posted and any official character being potentially included
Bad TB/BMR/SnV removes the ST element from the game in favor of random chance, having set defined dice rolls for certain interactions/characters.

I personally think all 3 should fit under the umbrella of "Regular" games, with maybe the exception of TB + 3/4 which is such a departure of standard gameplay due to the lack of script & possibilities.

Ultimately I just want to know where, if any line has been drawn as I have not seen any firm post or rule anywhere.

visual temple
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Idk about you all but I kinda think there shouldn’t be any hard limits
Idk tho

woeful tree
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I think games marked as experimental have a higher level of intensity/concentration, and as such MM madness belongs there

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I could see arguments either way for the other two

stone wharf
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The conversation earlier I will add had mods weighing in that TB +Wildcards are experimental and should be run as such

Bad B3 I personally think blurs the line, but I can see the argument if “a shitty ST can just secretly do that in a regular game so it’s regular”

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#text-game-general message

^ “TB + offscript character is experimental”

radiant bronze
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Another example is the "Blahaj" game that occured a few months ago. It was a modified atheist game where there was no evil team, and it was publicly announced that there were hannibal/marionette like evil players. It even had a little puzzle section to gain a mez word. Why is that game allowed in regular just because of "Atheist" but not stuff like MM? Not saying it should be experimental but 🤷

woeful tree
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It really shouldn't have been

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But nobody knew what it was until signups were full

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Aside from the STs

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And I think that element of surprise was the point?

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I don't really think blahaj game could happen more than once without being pre-announced as such

eternal sequoia
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That gives off a lot of All Amnes energy to me

radiant bronze
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There'd be a field of kibitzers being like "uh no"

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But if the dice say it you have to do it, that's the format

woeful tree
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You assume an active kibitz

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But yeah I get it

radiant bronze
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That's a slightly separate convo though, but it would be a much less firm opinion if that game was in experimental, becuase you would know something is going on

stone wharf
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Basically my take is:

-Released characters (no spoilers or homebrew)
-On a fully known script to all players
-Where players draw their one character token (barring Drunk and Lunatic and such)
-Where gameplay is not modified beyond translations needed to adapt day/voting/actions/night from BotC into text (you don’t have to use this server’s norms: unlimited whispers anytime ever would not make an experimental, albeit may require mod or player permission)
-Where any Djinn are official (or in case of unreleased character almanacs like lil_monsta arguably the official ruling) to best of ST’s knowledge/ability
-Fabled are used for their accommodation or script-building or game promoting purposes rather than as a gimmick (one newbie has an Angel is normal, game advertised as “This player or Random player is rolled to have an Angel” veers towards experimental)

If it meets all of the above, it’s normal queue. If any are missing, probably worth checking if it’s an experimental

ashen zephyr
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the closest thing to a dividing line is “is this game runnable under base rules, with no need for any home brew characters (counting major rules changes as homebrew fabled)”

under which ruling I would say MM is experimental because of whisper overlap rules (and should be generally for commitment reasons), any games with off-script roles (Fishbucket, TB+N with the N being hidden) are experimental for off-script roles, and Bad games or 🦈 are “yes but don’t” as regular games because you could run them under regular rules but like… shouldn’t?

more broadly, if we as a community see value in the normal/experimental distinction I think the boundary of ‘normal’ should be much more strictly enforced - yeah Mabel’s line here makes sense imo

radiant bronze
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I agree with both

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I think all of the initial examples either fit all under regular, or all under experimental

ashen zephyr
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I think the relevant question is “why is there a border?”

and I think the answer is “lots of people are here to play BotC and want a BotC experience when they sign up for a game”
so things that break fundamental rules go in a separate queue to make sure there’s always enough ‘regular’ games to appeal to people

eternal sequoia
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A quick thought- RP games have been run under normal since their conception. I'm curious if anyone would say that they shouldn't be run as regular games, because I can vaugely see the arguement for it.

woeful tree
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I think they should probably be experimental because commitment

radiant bronze
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I personally don't think commitment is a good line to draw though

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Because all players should be active in their games

woeful tree
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Well yeah but they aren't

radiant bronze
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Also I don't really think that would fix the problem

eternal sequoia
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I would agree, normal games often can be very high commitment, especially with a complex script.

woeful tree
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And there's a higher level of activity necessary in some games over others

radiant bronze
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Experimental games have large inactivity problems too, depending on the type of game even worse

ashen zephyr
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I mean if you want to be a real hardliner, yeah you could argue that cosmetic mods (RP, ❌ ⌨️ 🎮) should be experimental by virtue of niche appeal? and I could see that
but the line needs to be somewhere. #yes-but-dont and ongoing #1169406682686832660 are scripts that meet all the ‘rules’ to be regular but have niche appeal that probably aligns more with the experimental audience than the regular audience, do we put them in experimental?

eternal sequoia
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I feel like niche shouldn't put something in experimental. Experimental is for something mechanically different than usual clocktower. On most occasions anyway.

ashen zephyr
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and I would argue that #yes-but-dont was certainly mechanically further from usual clocktower than most RP games? but I think that comes down to what you define as ‘mechanics’

eternal sequoia
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That's fair.

radiant bronze
lost anvil
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Yup intensity shouldn't be used as the gauge. It should as others have said be whether the script deviates from officially released rules and roles.

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There was a discussion previously about splitting into 3 categories: regular, hybrid, and experimental which I still support.

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Regular - Base 3 and customs under currently released rules and role sets.

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Hybrid - Canvas is predominantly base 3/customs but adjusted rules/role sets and introduced.

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Experimental - Full homebrew with no released roles.

topaz knoll
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Here's a point that has not been brought up speaking as someone who's been thinking a lot about queue times.... normal is a much faster queue. So, people have an obvious incentive to want to label their games as normal. Whether or not we crack down on it, that incentive exists.

Do we think this is fair / worth maintaining? This issue would largely vanish if queue times were more equal, because people would no longer be biased towards tagging their games as normal. But for full disclosure, we're currently working on a proposal to reform the queue system, and that proposal will maintain the status quo that the normal queue should run a fair amount faster than the experimental queue, since that's the way it is now.

radiant bronze
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It was an issue that underlined my thoughts for it for sure, I don’t think any of these games would be put into regular, or at least not as likely to have been if the queue times were “balanced”

topaz knoll
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(As an aside... I like the Eevee 3-way idea too, but I do worry that it exacerbates this to the point that we ought to reckon with that first. There will be a LOT of jockeying to classify your game under whatever has the shorter queue...)

drowsy roost
topaz knoll
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to be this hardline, to continue to accommodate player demand, would a couple normal channels need to be converted to experimental channels? There are usually 1-3 normal games running at any given time that should be experimental under the strict definition

radiant bronze
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Technically yes, bad games follow mechanics, but in reality I don’t think it’s a fair argument

drowsy roost
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well yeah it would not be OK, please nobody ever do that

radiant bronze
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A lot of experimental games just take longer simply, and a lot of experimental games take long to recruit, which is still true in regulars just less frequently

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I do think maybe one more channel could be added though personally? 7 isn’t a lot and I don’t think adding an extra one would make a lot of the problems much worse, if it all, well known STs and more known scripts still fill up pretty fast

ashen zephyr
# topaz knoll to be this hardline, to continue to accommodate player demand, would a couple no...

i think this is the actual question
is it player demand or ST demand?

I think the entire premise of the regular/experimental split is based on this question, on ensuring that 'regular' games that are accessible to a wider range of the playerbase make up a certain proportion of games. if experimentals take longer to recruit and have a longer queue with less channels... that seems to be implying a mismatch?

drowsy roost
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Experimental has more variation in recruiting times than regular because experimental players often aren’t into every experimental game, they’re into certain scripts and certain STs and because experimental games take longer they wouldn’t want to take the risk on an experimental game they won’t love. Like live scheduled

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Regular games are more similar experiences to each other. Except when they aren’t

lost anvil
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I do feel that the variance across the experimental category is too big atm, and splitting it into hybrid and homebrew makes more sense to me. For those who don't think it's worth having 3 categories, what are the arguments keeping things as they are?

radiant bronze
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Tbh I don’t like the way it is now, I just like another proposal more

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But I do like that much more than the current system

ashen zephyr
# lost anvil I do feel that the variance across the experimental category is too big atm, and...

i think the question is moreso "where do we draw the lines between categories" which gets much messier the more categories we have and the more things can go in any given category

not to say that's not a problem with the current system, but... under my interpretation of this proposal, #yes-but-dont would be regular while TB+1 hidden role and possibly RP games would be hybrid, and super experimental games like Quantum or Ultra Fishbucket would be hybrid while very established homebrews like NWC or FoR would be experimental, and those borders seem... sketchy?

it's an inevitable issue with any category division that isn't super crisp (TB/Base 3 vs non-TB/Base 3 is the only one that comes to mind), but having more categories does enhance it.

i'm not opposed to expanding category splits, but I think (whether the categories change or not) there needs to be a reckoning with what the purpose of the splits are and how to best capture that

lost anvil
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I agree with those categorisations under the 3 split, and they would imo mirror complexity of game adaptations from regular - which would be the purpose.

I feel that some of the problems with some experimentals losing steam is that people arent ready or don't know what to expect when they go full homebrew, but hybrid is intuitively easier to grasp and provides an intermediary between going full homebrew and playing comfortably within released roles/rule sets.

winter wagon
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when you understand nothing

lost anvil
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That's not to say that regular wouldn't also have incredibly complex roles/interactions - Atheist/Heretic etc. which could class those scripts as advanced, but resources to understand those would be more widespread and accessible, whereas for e.g. MM, that's a game mode that can only really be found here.

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(afaik)

winter wagon
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(that was my first game)

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My second game? Re-rack

drowsy roost
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but yup it is a thing you can do in a regular game

winter wagon
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Since i was good twin

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in my first game

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they would 100% voted me

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They publically said it

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So

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St spared me

drowsy roost
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Was it on this server?

topaz knoll
# lost anvil I do feel that the variance across the experimental category is too big atm, and...

One issue that I think would need to be addressed before making such a change is long recruiting times. Currently, if two experimental STs are struggling to recruit, all experimental games in the queue are slightly delayed, since there are now only 4 experimental games moving towards their conclusion. In a world where there are only 2 homebrew channels, however, and both are currently occupied by STs who may struggle to recruit for weeks, then everyone else in the homebrew queue is indefinitely delayed. Queue clogs would be much, much worse than they are now.

One clean solution to this is "You have to fire after a few days, or give up the channel". That would enable a more individualized queue. But, I don't actually know if the community wants to do that? Is there value in having a space where less popular STs can slowly recruit and eventually playtest their stuff? If so, how should we manage the resulting inefficiency? I think we need to agree on answers to these questions as a community in order to implement this.

drowsy roost
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Anyone can make an interest check post on this very forum, to gather pre-ins while waiting in queue or even before entering queue. You don’t have to have a channel to recruit

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But a game channel with a ⭐ in the name is absolutely where you’ll get the most visibility

ashen zephyr
carmine turret
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I've realised while writing this post that it's pretty challenging to come up with a catch-all definition that may help with splitting into 3 different queues, but I'll give it a go:

Category 1 - Normal - These games have well-defined scripts with all characters known at the start, all characters have been officially released, and there is no change in core mechanics

Category 2 - Hybrid - These games present at most one exception to the Normal standard, in the form of:
(a) A script that is not well defined at the start/may include surprise offscript characters, but all characters are still official and there is no change in core mechanics (example: TB+1, regular Fishbucket), or
(b) The script is well defined at the start and includes only official characters, but there are minor changes to the core mechanics (example: Multicoloured Madness with base scripts, which has its own whisper rules)

Category 3 - Experimental - These games present two or more exceptions to the Normal standard, or have a homebrew script with most or all characters being unofficial (example: FoR, NWC), or present major changes to the core mechanics of the game (example: Blind Man's Bluff, Quantum)

Plenty of room to change the wording but I think this is where the supporters of triple queue are sitting?

ashen zephyr
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what counts as a minor versus major change to core mechanics?

radiant bronze
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I will also say that most of the time when games have been recruiting for closer to two weeks, the ST isn’t pinging for players, doesn’t have the ⭐, isn’t gauging interest beforehand. There are some STs who do do these and do take a while to fill up, due to circumstance, script, popularity, but sometimes it can be avoided a little bit.

ashen zephyr
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i.e. think you could credibly argue that playing three games at once is a more major change than BMB, or the inverse

carmine turret
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and if it's the text community as a whole that supports one such change, that could be polled for opinions (on what counts as "major" enough that it should go under E rather than H)

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from my pov BMB and Quantum are major changes because the way the gameplay develops when those scripts are run is very different from how it develops with normal scripts

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MM isn't different other than needing to do whisper budgeting

ashen zephyr
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also i think part of eevee's proposal for hybrid (which I'm inclined to agree with?) is centered around stuff like Bootlegger's Anthology? she can correct if i'm wrong there

where 'hybrid' literally comes from being part homebrew part official

carmine turret
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I'd be fine with those going into Hybrid, but I think Hybrid (if it eventually exists) should be more than just that, otherwise it'll be a pretty empty queue

ashen zephyr
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and i think your line puts a script that uses a couple of bootlegger characters in experimental instead

which, again, i don't think there's an easy line to draw but worth pointing out as another blur point

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yeah for sure

carmine turret
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that could be solved by changing the wording if the consensus is that part official and part unofficial should go into Hybrid (which I can get behind)

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Exp would be "the entire script is unofficial content"

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or we could set a % threshold, like if more than half the characters are unofficial, it goes into Exp

ashen zephyr
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like it's easy to say "Regular should be stuff like Base 3, Catfishing and new character reveal script games, Hybrid is stuff like Revos and scripts with some Bootlegger's Anthology characters, Experimental is stuff like NWC or FoR"

but there will always be things that don't fall neatly into those categories
is Blind Man's Bluff hybrid or experimental? what about Quantum, or the early drafts of UMaST that still used a few official characters? are RP games regular or hybrid - what if they use the Beach Day fabled that some of them included? what about Bad games? what about people doing weird things with Atheist or Amnesiac?

carmine turret
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doesn't defining a threshold of unofficial characters and what counts as minor vs major change solve that?

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the issue is more so where you draw the line, I get that

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and different people may answer that question in different ways

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for me the answer is gameplay-based which is why I consider MM on the same level as RP/Bad

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that's probably its own topic

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personally at this stage I'm more interested in what the community thinks about how to make the queues more efficient, since the two current queues aren't anywhere near the same speed

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if splitting into 3 is the solution, we can then talk about how

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some time ago I proposed a different 3-split aimed at guaranteeing that beginners would always have a B3 script available to play

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there could be other good ideas out there

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but I think the question "should we change how the queue works?" comes before the question "how does each queue work really?"

hoary ravine
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Experimental STers can run their games faster and not hold channels for over a month. That would help.

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Again I don't think the current system is really broken atm

carmine turret
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I mean, I get that to some degree a ST should be able to "speed" up a game by being present and on the ball, but you can't just ask people to "be faster" when they're running experimental games - it takes however long it takes

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same as if you start a 15p TB and it goes into final 3

hoary ravine
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Some people will recruit for 3+ weeks then run a game for 3+ weeks which is why the queue moves slowly objectively

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We don't have enough players to expand the queue to more channels

carmine turret
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I don't see a game running for several weeks as an issue, if anything the recruiting going slow can be an issue

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and I don't think a hard stop is the solution since activity levels vary over the year

hoary ravine
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Yeah that's reasonable.

drowsy roost
carmine turret
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usually it takes longer to recruit when there are less people playing - which means that if you put a hard stop at, say, a week after you take the channel to recruit, chances are the next person who takes it also won't be able to recruit within that time frame

lost anvil
carmine turret
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that said I'm not opposed to a hard stop if it's at least a week long, because I think that while that isn't the solution to the exp queue being slower than normal, it's reasonable to think that if you don't have enough players in a week you should either start your game with a smaller player count or drop

hoary ravine
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Personally I think recruiting is hard for experimental scripts that are not interesting to the players.

Anecdotally I was able to fill up a silly ChatGPT game and NWC in minutes while sometimes experimentals with low interest take multiple weeks to fill up.

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Same with like Lizards and Sax and Violins and other popular scripts

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I would be ok with a hyper-experimental queue to remove those type of games into a queue for people who want to play test completely untested homebrew as that would speed up normal experimental to the same speed as standard.

lost anvil
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This 3 split proposal doesn't primarily address speeding recruiting up, but gives cleaner options for queueing which could secondarily speed the queues up.

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Ultimately recruitment is a HR exercise and the ST needs to be active to recruit and that behaviour should be encouraged imo.

carmine turret
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I think it would alleviate the exp problem to some degree

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because the way it's currently split, some of what goes into exp now would go into hybrid

radiant bronze
hoary ravine
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Yeah I agree with Void, I would vote for a hyper-experimental section.

carmine turret
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that means two queues to manage the load of what is currently one queue

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it probably isn't the end all be all, but you need to start making changes somewhere and then readjust later if there are still problems

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or at least that'd be my philosophy

radiant bronze
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Would the hyper experimental section be an extension on the regular/hybrid/experimental idea?

carmine turret
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I think what he means by "hyper-experimental" is what I called "experimental" in my 3-split model

radiant bronze
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Ah ok

lost anvil
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Also as I mentioned, there are degrees of complexity across experimental games right now. Some which are more on the hybrid side are easier to grasp, whilst some homebrews require complete upskilling which a lay player coming in may not be aware of - getting overwhelmed and subbing out or losing activity.

radiant bronze
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4 queues is a lot which is why in clarifying

carmine turret
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yeah I think if we're making more queues we should probably go to 3 first

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and then to 4 maybe in a few months if we think a 3-queue system doesn't work

drowsy roost
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oops! all queues!

radiant bronze
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I also think at the time we need 4 queues there’s probably a better solution ngl

carmine turret
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agreed

hoary ravine
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So Void is proposing standard, standard ++, and experimental or something similar?

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I'm also ok with that

lost anvil
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People say that having another category may result in people gaming to try to join the shorter queue but if the community as a whole agrees which games should go where then that solves that.

carmine turret
drowsy roost
carmine turret
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so people can't game the system

hoary ravine
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I think 3 queues with firm definitions would definitely help, I think I would make standard ++ a bit more broad to include tested popular homebrews too. But that is my personal opinion.

visual temple
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I have no idea how you keep this up

radiant bronze
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7 channels I meant

visual temple
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I know

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Mafia Universe, perhaps the largest Mafia site, only has maybe 6 games at any given time

topaz knoll
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Under Void's definition, revos is homebrew, right? It's both an unusual rules set and multiple custom fabled

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It's multiple deviations

radiant bronze
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Well I don’t play and mafia universe and it seems we already beat them handily so 🙈

hoary ravine
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I honestly don't think we have the players to support even 7 experimental channels with full activity right now.

visual temple
hoary ravine
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But we have way too many STers on the queue.

visual temple
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Like an insane person

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(/j)

radiant bronze
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One thing worth noting about the 3 queue system, experimental in specific is that some of those games can only be run at specific times ST wise due to the depth and time it takes to ST

ashen zephyr
radiant bronze
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If we’re subdividing these channels smaller and smaller it really really limits it timing wise

carmine turret
lost anvil
carmine turret
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what I wrote doesn't have to be taken verbatim, I'm sure there's a better way to phrase the split that leaves less grey areas hanging

lost anvil
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(but a fully homebrew Revos is in the works)

hoary ravine
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I argue that the split doesn't solve the problem that Void wants to solve though. It allows for McM, Knaves, Fishbucket to be played in their own queue, but true experimental speed will not change as the untested homebrew will still take a few weeks to recruit then a few weeks to play which is the bottleneck in the experimental queue imo

ashen zephyr
# carmine turret what I wrote doesn't have to be taken verbatim, I'm sure there's a better way to...

yes and (mostly) no, respectively

the grey areas are inevitable, that's my entire point
you can have slightly less of them with a very clear proposal but either there are huge grey areas or there are strict lines that inevitably feel like they misclassify things, because we're not all going to agree on what's "a little bit experimental" versus "a lot experimental" or "normal with a hint of spice but not enough to make it particularly experimental"

carmine turret
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if that's still the case even after we give experimental all the space it needs then I think we just have to be patient when we're queuing for experimental

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(re: Sterling)

lost anvil
ashen zephyr
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this is not a problem that doesn't already exist - see TB+1 / Bad discourse over the past few days, it is and will always be present with any sort of split

but at least the "any homebrew / no homebrew" split is, if not black/white, at least dark grey/light grey

whereas "a bit of homebrew / full homebrew" is unavoidably a lot fuzzier

carmine turret
hoary ravine
ashen zephyr
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this is not me saying i dislike the proposal

just that it makes a problem we're already having worse in a lot of ways
it does have a ton of benefits, i like the idea, but i want to flag the meaningful issue it does exacerbate

carmine turret
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oh okay yes I see where you're coming from

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personally I'd be in favour of addressing both issues at once by changing the queue system (in whatever way the consensus believes appropriate) and learning from the breakage if it really works so badly that the changes need to be reverted, but that's just me

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I get that change is effort and for some it's scary

ashen zephyr
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yeah i think these are mostly two seperate issues

lost anvil
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There might be a secondary effect that hybrid will likely move faster than full homebrew unless the full homebrew is well established given average recruiting times for script types.

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On recruiting though, the system needs to decide if its here to serve the demand of players or to serve the aspirations of STs.

ashen zephyr
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one is queue time, which is just... the queue is by design not optimized for queue time. we can make minor tweaks but ultimately a system where there are more people who want to run games (particularly homebrews with limited testing and reputation) than players to fill all of those games is going to result in tradeoffs and the current system sacrifices queue time in those tradeoffs

whether or not the channel split makes sense or is the best way to categorize games is a separate issue. related in some ways (i.e. STs like me who have a wide variety of game types they're interested in running will end up filtering mostly into the faster queue, because i'd rather run a monthly-ish regular game than a homebrew every three or four months), but addressing either concern is not inherently going to solve the other

carmine turret
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I say that selflessly considering I like to run mostly games that are considered experimental by the current standards

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that being said, I think that most of the experimentals that currently exist/are run are popular enough to warrant taking queue length into account, as it indirectly benefits the players too

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I filled up two towns for my AA without doing any kind of recruitment and I'm not a particularly known name in the ST department

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other popular experimental scripts have seen the same happen

radiant bronze
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I think STs should have freedom to do what games they want in the format they want, but the games should be serving the players, specifically in the way of providing enjoyment/fun

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Even if a system is primarily shifted towards the wants and needs of STs over players, as long as there are a lot of games players will have their wants and needs met by sheer numbers

willow orchid
radiant bronze
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Yeah it's a seperate discussion but I do think that being fine with lower player counts would be helpful

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Also in general I wish we had more non 12p or 15p games as it can hit a different dynamic and situations

willow orchid
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Also I wanna ask What do we think of TB+Duchees or SNV+Revolutionary is it something we think is strictly experimental?

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That's something that was on my mind to just try base scripts with diffrent fableds and see how a game goes

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I do think it's more normal than TB+Role

radiant bronze
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I think it should go in regular, fableds can be added to any game by definition

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Although I don't think TB+Duchess is a good pairing tbh

willow orchid
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Yeah That was my initial Though

willow orchid
radiant bronze
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yea fair

carmine turret
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if it's just the Fabled then easily Normal

willow orchid
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I think TB +Revolutinory works better though

carmine turret
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think of it like building a custom script with exactly the characters of a base 3 and whatever Fabled you want

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any custom with any Fabled that's officially released would go under Normal

radiant bronze
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Could be interesting yeah

carmine turret
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actually I think that would be my argument for Revos fitting Hybrid under my demonyms

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Revolutionary is an officially released Fabled

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so technically Revos only "breaks" one of the core rules by using Fog of War and having certain special mechanics (like the OPG Pit-Hag eevee used in the last run)

radiant bronze
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My main counter argument against that would be it's using an officially released fabled in a very unofficial way

willow orchid
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Yeah I think it could fit hybrid too many custom fables which would potentially be a case for knaves to be hybrid

radiant bronze
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Knaves would be hybrid I feel yeah

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If it's just like, custom + maybe light homebrew + unique rule, that formula should go under hybrid most of the time I feel? Although I really haven't been in that part of the text game community so can't say with confidence

hoary ravine
ashen zephyr
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yeah
i think it's reasonable for STs to want to avoid one or both extremes of the player count spectrum (either thinking 15p games are too big and take too long in text, or thinking 7p games are too short), but people should be fine with firing at 9 to 11 players in most cases

carmine turret
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tbh I'd be okay if there was a hard rule of one week recruiting and then firing with however many you have

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because IF hogging channels for recruitment for many weeks is a problem (I can't say, I haven't ever tried to keep track) that should alleviate it

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if there aren't enough players for a non-teensy game in a week I think it's fair to have the ST drop the channel and requeue, or maybe choose to change script if we don't want to force people out of the queue - which I can understand in the current circumstances (queuing for months only to not get interest for your game and be forced out for more months until you can run anything at all feels bad)

ashen zephyr
carmine turret
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then that means a rule is probably fine

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it will prevent frustrations in those edge cases and in most cases, it won't matter

radiant bronze
carmine turret
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for case #2 there is a forum now

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I think it'd be reasonable to ask people to poll for their script a few days ahead of when they expect to get the channel

radiant bronze
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Yeah 100%

carmine turret
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it's usually pretty obvious when you're going to get a channel

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not a lot of games end by surprise and in a row

carmine turret
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e.g. minor deviation could be one or more of:
(a) a portion of the characters being unknown at start (example: TB+1, Fishbucket) or unofficial (example: Bootlegger's Anthology script with some amount of unofficial characters, say, <25%)
(b) some of the core mechanics being different from standard BOTC, but in such a way that the gameplay still mostly or entirely conforms to standard BOTC (example: MM, Revos)

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major deviation could be:
(a) most or all of the characters being unofficial (example: FoR, NWC)
(b) some of the core mechanics being different from standard BOTC, in such a way that the gameplay is significantly different from standard BOTC (example: BMB, Quantum)

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my own personal perspective on what constitutes a minor vs a major change lies in the structure of the puzzle - I consider MM and Revos to be minor deviations because the good team receives roles and needs to solve the same way as any base or custom script, and the evil team receives bluffs and needs to bamboozle the good team the same way as any base or custom script

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in the same way I consider BMB different enough from standard BOTC to warrant the experimental status (players don't even learn their alignment on setup), as well as Quantum for analogous reasons (players only receive their alignment and they choose what they want to become through their actions)

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an alternative way to split the channels would be:

Normal - as above
Experimental - for scripts that have rules or mechanics that deviate from standard BOTC, but only use official characters
Homebrew - for scripts that contain characters that are not official (any amount), regardless of rules/mechanics used

under this definition we'd classify TB+1, Bad, MM, Revos, BMB, Quantum under Experimental; then we'd have Bootlegger, FoR, NWC, and so on under Homebrew

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personally I like the first split (Normal/Hybrid/Experimental) more because I think it would make the queues more uniform even if defining the dividing line between minor and major changes is harder

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the second approach would overall be easier to understand and manage, but I think it'd lead to a very full Experimental queue and a very empty Normal/Homebrew queue

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I could be wrong though

hoary ravine
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I think that works above, I'd be willing to give it a shot!

kind blaze
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I've always approached the normal/experimental divide as "how comprehensible is this rule set to someone who has only played like, 2 games of B3 or something similar"

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And also I guess like, how much does it deviate from standard text game rules?

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Like, imo bad is solidly a normal thing because the text ruleset does not actually change at all on the players' part, it's an ST side change that is told to the players for the sake of transparency
Idk if I'm qualified to talk about tb+1 because the one time I played it I think the +1 was revealed to everyone at game start but based on conversation it sounds like that's not usually the case...?
MM is kinda straddling the line because even though it doesn't change the botc rules it does change the text game rules a lot? But like personally I wouldn't find it weird to see MM in normal even tho most of the time people run it in experimental

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But stuff like bmb and quantum are definitely experimental because they're not something a person who has only played one or two games would be able to grasp immediately

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But also also I feel like the overhaul proposal being worked on will probably fix these problems anyways 🙈

drowsy roost
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tb+1 where the 1 is publicly known is just a custom, yeah. Like Strings Pulling or Teddy Bearing

winter wagon
obsidian lichen
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my games are being called out

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My opinion is that it really doesn't matter...

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I feel very iffy about MM being in experimental because on one hand, experimental is meant to be batshit crazy homebrews, but MM isn't that.

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My thoughts for Blahaj is that because the Atheist is in play, it should be allowed. An atheist can technically do what it did so I just consider it fair.

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TB + 1 is literally just a custom...

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ain't no way that's getting changed

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Also Bad is literally just the ST making questionable decisions

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What I do like from this conversation is a queue change

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It's been pitched a lot of times

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but nothing has happened

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so please make it happen

hoary ravine
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I think Mabel and Besjbo have a cool idea in the works and the cache to make it happen so I think we might be seeing some cool changes soon!

drowsy roost
obsidian lichen
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Also I mean

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@radiant bronze was typing

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and said nothing

radiant bronze
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I was gonna respond to what you said but like, i've already made all my points thrice over previously :P

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Main thing is though, this channel probably isn't the best place to talk about the queue, the thread isn't even about it tbh. Although we've defenitally accidently hashed over it a dozen times in here

obsidian lichen
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uh ok

carmine turret
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because there's a clear difference in how quickly the queues progress

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and there's a good argument for what should or shouldn't be N vs E

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this discussion is a good place to potentially find a solution for both of those things

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also I don't think people referencing your games is anything personal - they're just good examples to explain the concept

lost anvil
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Like with the Suggestions forum, all topics always lead to the queue charmanderp

safe flame
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i'm not active in slow text rn so i'm not advocating any solutions because i'm not up to speed, separate queue for homebrew and experimental seems like it's gonna be even more arbitrary distinction. is all amnesiacs homebrew or experimental, get divided on the issue etc? maybe if one queue was distinctly for estabilished popular para-botc interests (FoR and the few popular homebrews, roleplay, rev pairs, all amne?, quantum?) and one for truly experimenting with stuff, and popular vote can put some homebrew script in the priviledged/estabilished queue. not sure if that would help just a thought

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i do think there's a good point in "niche things should perhaps not be in regular queue". not sure where community stands on roleplay being niche/popular, but other things i'm sure can be figured out if they are regular.

from what i've seen though, horrible scripts and intentionally bad or "yes but don't" storytelling seems to have enough popularity to be regular 🙃

obsidian lichen
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Anything else experimental in experimental

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And regulars in regulars

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Or even a Hybrid sections

woeful tree
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Where does Lizards go

obsidian lichen
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??

woeful tree
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Is it a homebrew or an experimental

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Discuss

drowsy roost
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Lizards is fully homebrew

obsidian lichen
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^^^

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it’s just way easier to call it hb

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but if it’s in experimental, I would not mind

eternal sequoia
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Are we thinking of making a third queue?

carmine turret
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I think we should

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@drowsy roost are you folks already working on something in the background or does this need to be made into a ticket?

stone wharf
topaz knoll
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Yup, the upcoming proposal is very much in the spirit of this proposal and is compatible! I think anyone supporting this is going to really like the new change.

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But, yeah, trying to do too many changes at once might be more chaotic than is worth it because then it's very hard to tell which externality derives from which policy. My suggestion would be to approve the reform proposal now, and then once we've seen it in action, we can turn our attention to this proposal. On the one hand they're philosophically aligned and compatible but on the other hand, the larger reform accomplishes some amount of the goals of this, so I'm not positive what the specific proposal here will look like in the new world

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The general idea of having more clarity is a great one but exact policy needs will be different in a world where queue is not the only option 😉

drowsy roost
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The two reform proposals can be seen as duplicated effort, but they can also be seen as multiple options! But even then, staggering the two proposals could be good for not putting the text community into decision paralysis.

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What Mabel and Besjbo are waiting on before posting is that I’m almost done making a form that’s like “yes or no to this proposal, and do you have any feedback?” and I’m gonna ping lfgtext with it and it’s gonna run for 2 weeks like a HoF vote

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Now we’re getting way off topic though, you’ll hear about this very soon in another thread!

drowsy roost