secret thing

[next vault]

Chef just reveals its Legion, but it doesnt solve it

[sinful onyx]

check back here idk

[hollow oasis]

Ok realistically it’s because people do legion with all of the Broken tf

and then add Vortox

[modern plume]

If we're gonna post a statistical claim, at the very least we should have a legitimate methodology and knowledge of where those numbers come from and how they are derived

[hollow oasis]

and yet, legion withers and dies

[modern plume]

Otherwise, the numbers are meaningless

[hollow oasis]

They’re derived by people putting in individual wins and losses

[modern plume]

Derived how?

[hollow oasis]

it’s random people across multiple play groups

[modern plume]

Who and where?

[next vault]

Dont take the numbers at face value, take the relative positions of the demons

[hollow oasis]

You put in the bag, you say who won

[sinful onyx]

i don't think winrate says alot about demons if you compare them across scripts
bc if a demon would get 80% or 20% on a script, then it won't be on the script

it only says something if you compare the 4 demons on 1 same script

[hollow oasis]

winrates get updated

[modern plume]

... The numbers give you the relative positions of the demons. If I have no basis for believing these numbers are real, I have no basis for believing their hierarchy is real either

[next vault]

Alhad has such a low % because everyone puts it on scripts super hostile to it

[sinful onyx]

so like legion is like

either it has 66% like here
or it has 20% or lower bc of broken interactions

[modern plume]

So anyone can claim anything? And it's all self reported?

[hollow oasis]

You say it like someone is actively sabotaging the site to say a character is too weak/strong

[sinful onyx]

realistically scripts with 20% legion winrate aren't gonna exist, and if they do they don't get played

[next vault]

Also, idt anyones surprised about alhad/vigor/riot/ojo being lowest 4

[sinful onyx]

nah

[low umbra]

It’s like outed legion is just bad

[next vault]

Or nobody surprised about Po, Fang Gu, Legion or LM being so high

[sinful onyx]

alhad in scriptbuilding is like

cool 2kpn demon

[hollow oasis]

Well it’s also because it gets “extra benefits”

[sinful onyx]

but ofc it's not

bros like 1.5kpn and inaccurate

[next vault]

Thing with legion is that you have less reasons to believe the Chef

[hollow oasis]

The balance point for knowing legion imo is “Alch ET”

[hollow oasis]

The thing is outed legion just dies on contact with “voting”

[modern plume]

I don't have to make any such claim, and you should apologize for the false accusation here.

How do I know that there isn't biases in the methodology?

• Biases in the scripts played across groups
• Biases in the various groups that are also willing to report
• Biases in which groups will report what results
• Biases in which groups play which demons in relation to which groups are willing to report
• Biases in groups willing to report once vs multiple people in the groups reporting in relation to the types of games and demons and scripts played

[hollow oasis]

It’s really bad at that

[next vault]

It's because people go all on monke when theyre Legion

[sinful onyx]

Imo it's biased
but how biased is it to each demon tho

like i can see maybe someone post all the vigor wins but never Fang Gu wins

i guess

[modern plume]

If it's all self reported, without any further information, it's functionally random and at the mercy of the groups willing to play what demons and the quality of those groups.

[next vault]

Legion is the strongest demon and p much always has been, you can argue that old fang gu was stronger ig

[hollow oasis]

Ok you can

But old fang Gu

Isn’t real

[next vault]

A demon that can give you +2 evils, even if dead is quite strong

Also yeah, not real

[hollow oasis]

and cannot hurt you

I think

[sinful onyx]

it's not real

it's as real as legion that kills good player every night

which isn't real

[low umbra]

When was fang Gu changed? Like, surely that was early enough that it hasn’t drastically messed with clock tracker stats?

[hollow oasis]

Before the game released

[low umbra]

Yeah it’s not changed clocktracker stats then lol

[sinful onyx]

also this has the obvious issue of characters being on base 3 or not

[hollow oasis]

I think it was before the “one that must not be named” got swapped to vigor

[next vault]

?

[sinful onyx]

Zombuul/shab scripts aside from bmr is like

not exist

[hollow oasis]

It’s such a bad ability I refuse to name it

The meta is for all players to be the same gender

meaning

Being trans is the optimal strategy. It’s a horrible demon.

[sinful onyx]

Kazali is strong bc they will pick ones who are good at the game
and it's statistically not false
but town never use that stats to say "ehh the veteran being evil is more likely a world"

so ofc they win more

[hollow oasis]

and they should realistically depends on the demon

sometimes they just pick their friends

In fact I think that’s the reasoning behind alsaahir on CC

[sinful onyx]

It's buffed by the fact that using the meta to target veterans seems unfair and maybe unfun

Yet the meta is...still a meta

[low umbra]

I mean meta-ing Kaz picks is kinda cringe

But also we why we want to do things in a min-max way instead of just have fun with the game and potentially team up with people who you don’t usually have on your evil teams?

[hollow oasis]

Winning fun

[sinful onyx]

bc eh

[next vault]

Oh, Skinkulus

[hollow oasis]

Yea

[sinful onyx]

i don't track who was more often evil

you know

[hollow oasis]

I refuse to name it

[sinful onyx]

like i genuinely won't remember that

[modern plume]

Gesundheit

[hollow oasis]

Indeed

[sinful onyx]

kazali being able to avoid players who just lose when evil
and players who just win when good

is like

a strength

and it's especially a bigger strength when in groups that's mixed with veterans and newbies

which i doubt is not at small numbers

[modern plume]

If you're playing enough games of Clocktower where you can make a genuine consideration of who you irregularly play on the same Evil team with, you've also played enough Clocktower where you've regularly played Evil with those players; it should balance out on average over time.

Unless you're regularly playing with Kazali in the first place, or with Gardener or such.

[sinful onyx]

It's cringe but real

[hollow oasis]

Ok in fairness, picking players you have not synergized with in the past can end badly

[sinful onyx]

and the neglection of such meta as good is what makes kazali stronger
bc as kazali they don't

in all fairness

[hollow oasis]

notably I don’t think “all veterans” is the correct meta

because like

[modern plume]

If it's only somewhat bad, then in fairness, one could suppose picking them allows practice?

-# If it's particularly bad, then maybe there's a big concern between those players

[low umbra]

I def know a few players in a few of the groups I’m in where I have played maybe a max of one or two games with where others I’ve played over 5

[hollow oasis]

sometimes you+vets=bad combo

because your play styles do not synergize

[sinful onyx]

kazali has the upside of if you don't feel like demon today

self pick to rerack

[hollow oasis]

You can take the loss I know

[sinful onyx]

however like it's only fun once in a month

and cmon man

i got kazali finally once

why'd i not want to play it

[modern plume]

No. Never do this if you can pick at least two minions.
Pick someone else first, then yourself.

https://tenor.com/view/burn-elmo-pyro-burn-it-down-ashes-gif-5632946

[next marlin]

Clocktracker is often directionally wrong, i.e. in the opposite direction to leaked app stats

[low umbra]

Artificial win rate reduction go brrr

[sinful onyx]

vigor winrates high?!

[next marlin]

we don't have vigor winrates (I have an estimate for what band they'd be in based on the stats we have)

clocktracker definitely overestimates both pithag and marionette

(i.e. directionally overestimates them rather than being the wrong magnitude but right direction)

I suspect the site as a whole has a slight bias towards people logging games they won

[low umbra]

I’m honestly not sure how consistently people use clocktracker, but if it’s biased towards people who want to log a fun/exciting/chaotic game, I’d imagine it would favour roles that align with that bias (ie, mario and pit hag I can see as fitting that bias)

[next marlin]

notably we also know good wins a little more often than evil so expecting evil roles to balance at 50/50 is wrong

(not far off, but not perfectly correct)

[sinful onyx]

logging mario win is like the most definitely thing that'd happen

[next marlin]

though also its magnitudes tend to be absurd

[sinful onyx]

i also wonder why's vortox, yagga and leech having so high winrate but whatever

[next marlin]

even for roles we know operate at an extreme (e.g. Vizier) it's way off in that extreme

all that said...yeah I think Kazali is way stronger than it looks

[sinful onyx]

see i think vizier can be a perfectly balanced role
bc you can just not care about 1 minion game compatibility

[next marlin]

"your optimal evil team" is an absurd ability

[sinful onyx]

never put vizier in 1 minion bags resolves a lot of things

and it doesn't really make you metable or whatever

[modern plume]

A misunderstanding about statistics and random variables is the belief that such random variables are necessarily explanatory to the group they are claimed to be tracking, that the group which is being measured and the relevant quality measured is actually the same object (in a statistical sense) as the random variable's output that is maintained and calculated; there can be a number of filters and other dynamic systems that are part of the derivation of the measured output.

Any number of filters could have gotten in the way that distort the influence of various groups and types of games being added into the total for the win rates.
And rather than measuring across the category equally, different types of groups, games, scripts, and other statistical structures out there could be far more weighted in the measurement for such rates.

[uneven field]

half the town (Greg and Marissa) was convinced it was kazali

[tough silo]

I have other statistics from another database, and it also agrees Al-hadikhia wins less that 40% of the time.

[next vault]

Alhad moment

[tough silo]

Also that statistic database says that Zombuul wins more games that Vigormortis so pick it with a grain of salt

It also says that Fearmonger has a 60% winrate too

[fiery sleet]

Probably cuz people overhate on fearmonger

It has a 100% winrate in my group

[next vault]

I can believe that

[tough silo]

Its what the numbers there say

[next vault]

vigor is notoriously not that great

[tough silo]

In its home script yeah, but it depends a lot. Their extra poison can be really load bearing

[fiery sleet]

Vig wins ~55-60% of the time in my solo vig script

[uneven field]

it's almost like S&V is poorly built

[fiery sleet]

So I think it's mainly the comparative lack of misinfo being really hard on SnV (without the fang gu escape hatch + extra evil to compensate)

[uneven field]

if only someone were saying this frequently

[next vault]

vati moment

[fiery sleet]

I'm getting the sense someone has been saying this frequently

[uneven field]

is vati stealing my thunder?

[fallow rapids]

is there even a new question

[vague pier]

No

[1/27] is questionless

I have a bad qn we can run ig

[1/27] What script is your guilty pleasure script?

Think like, an unpopular one that you still like maybe for that one singular interaction or the one game that just happened to work out well :3

[dusty thistle]

PB is not as good as TB, but it is a good script. I will die on this hill.

[fiery sleet]

This one. It's one of mine (which like yeah ofc I'm gonna be partial to it, but whatever). It's really chaotic and I had a blast with it, even though it got a more lukewarm reception from my playgroup

[grizzled marsh]

Why is alhad so low?

[barren sun]

I love the interaction with each demon, unfortunately, the main point of the script ( engine with loud minions that fuck with executions) still doesn't work quite well

[tough silo]

Alhad players tend a lot to gamble their own lives too much and they end up killing themselves with their own ability.

[fiery sleet]

And also if they don't, then town runs out of demon candidates real quick

[fallow rapids]

Flesh and Bone

[dusty thistle]

And also also clocktracker is not a reliable source in any way shape or form.

[shrewd cloud]

Al-Had’s loud (which limits certain world building), gives a lot of power over the kills to usually good players, and can accidentally kill itself. So I’m not really shocked if it is in the lower half of Demon win rates at minimum (even if we probably won’t ever get 100% official stats)

[next vault]

Alhad also has this issue where it's usually paired with demonbanes, roles that are generally strong (esp farmer, raven and banshee)

[tough silo]

Do you guys agree that Shug + Harpy its a bad interaction?

[fiery sleet]

No (idk what's so bad about it)

[fiery sleet]

1/28: What are your best Hermit combos?

[warped urchin]

Define best

[fiery sleet]

favorite idk

ones you think are noteworthy

[warped urchin]

But I'm insane

[fiery sleet]

I don't care

[warped urchin]

Mutant Saint Drunk 🔥

[fiery sleet]

mutant saint poli/heretic ggs rerack time

[karmic rose]

Golem/Politician/Damsel, credit to Biscuits

[coarse fern]

Butler / Damsel goes pretty hard

[hollow oasis]

I’m a butler saint (PM/SH) fan

[dense moat]

I'm stealing Quilava's

Plague Doctor, Mutant, Golem + a Baron

tho i'd also take the Drunk Plague Doctr one on Star's Edge

[foggy grotto]

Relcuse Lunatic Saint is a classic but its not like

good

its just funny

[foggy grotto]

YES THANK YOU

[digital drum]

Gave +1 Thanks to @coarse fern (current: #218 - 279)

[foggy grotto]

I SAID THIS WHEN HERMIT CAME OUT AND I WAS LAUGHED AT

the masses just weren't ready

also i like hermit that mixes outsiders that usually want to out with those who dont

makes the ones who want to out more damaging

its not great with like

saint

but butler, recluse, snitch, PM, stuff like that

its also why i enjoy open outsiders + fang gu

[finite wigeon]

my favorite Hermit script has Plague Doctor, Sweetheart, Barber

A big thing I wanted for the script was a very "traditional" Hermit, where none of the Outsider abilities would really get in each other's way or create much weirdness.

[junior knot]

guys the absolute best role to pair with hermit is obviously ogre lol

cmon now

[keen crescent]

Its not a complete set, but I like mixing damsel with on death outsiders like barber or pd

adds a nice tension between wanting to eliminate the wincon by dying, and not wanting to die

Alternatively, goon/damsel/heretic, so you can have someone sit there, begging for the minions to guess them and pretending theyre evil to accomplish that, and then losing anyways since theres a regular heretic.

[barren sun]

[next vault]

[modern plume]

Plague Doctor , Mutant

But only with Baron on the script. Because then you get the infection mechanic, because the Plague Doctor-Baron jinx allows duplicate Hermits to come into play, none of which can say anything as they are now Mutants and risk being executed and spreading the infection further.

[keen crescent]

wait thats so fun

[modern plume]

This also makes for interesting script designs if the demon is the Lil'Monsta because then
(1) ST can intentionally kill the spawning Hermits, keeping the chain going...
(2) ... or use the Plague Doctor ability to make duplicate and additional Minion abilities later down the line.

There's also some evil combinations you can choose alongside Plague Doctor & Mutant to make this infection even worse.

Snitch You can tell the Minions the former role of the newly made Hermit as one of the bluffs.
Golem If the Hermit nominates and kills a player, ST might treat this as a madness break for revealing themself an outsider.
Tinker For chain reactions that can set weird things up.
Lunatic Best for Summoner and/or Fang Gu scripts to make some wild scenarios.

[dusty thistle]

Pope duplicating hermit

[uneven field]

this is a bizarre take

shugenja harpy is an amazing interaction

any character that allows someone to bluff specific evil information against another player is an amazing interaction with harpy

harpy stays winning

it's like if cerenovus was a good character

[uneven field]

the script I'm building at the moment is hermit golem politician butler

[uneven field]

so like, how?

lunatic drunk how?

[fallow rapids]

there is one way

you think you are a Townsfolk holding Lil Monsta

[fiery sleet]

You think you are a snarmer who picked the demon n1-2

[karmic rose]

I will say that Star's Edge is the only script I've played/run where the Hermit felt like it really really fit

[uneven field]

I'm only just now looking more closely at this script, and it's crazy

three public minions and a SW + lil' monsta, legion

minstrel

CLOCKMAKER

oh wait king with no choirboy it's meant to be a bad script

carry on

[fallow rapids]

the demons are literally giving the players 4 Ls

the script title is Cruel and Unusual

the goal of the script was to have every character be miserable to play

[uneven field]

preacher in a non legion doesn't seem that miserable

[uneven field]

oh that's a new jinx

still not that bad

[fallow rapids]

yeah preacher is only really here to make others miserable

[uneven field]

disable the vizier, -1 demon candidate in non LM

you've succeeded at making a very unfun script I'll give you that

[fallow rapids]

i‘ve always joked that the real win condition is to have fun

[uneven field]

I hate basically every legion jinx and this script has four of them

[fallow rapids]

of course you know i had to hit them with the 3 for 3 “outed legion”

[uneven field]

the politician jinx is good

[fallow rapids]

poli jinx good

poli is here so that you can punt baby to some poor townsfolk to make them believe they are hermit poli

because that’s the funniest thing you can do

[uneven field]

politician and zealot are good legion jinxes, all other legion jinxes suck ass

I know they don't like to make hate jinxes but legion should have hate jinxes

[fallow rapids]

Alsie here would be pretty happy if it weren’t for SW Baby Legion Politician Lleech

wait

[uneven field]

but even some of the ones that should have reasonable jinxes don't

[fallow rapids]

Alsie here is not happy

[uneven field]

how the fuck did they fuck up legion magician so badly

[fallow rapids]

Legion Magician is god awful

[dusty thistle]

Poli sucks because of the nature of the politician. Zealot, the legion should've known better.

[uneven field]

I have my own legion magician jinx

[dusty thistle]

That's the worst jinx in the game, bar none.

[uneven field]

it's stupid that I have to add a bootlegger to a script just to put down the jinx that it should be rather than the official one

[dusty thistle]

What were they smoking when they came up with legion+magician?

[uneven field]

carbon monoxide gas

[fallow rapids]

Slightly better but not that much

Legion learn each other in smaller groups. Magician is in one of them.

old jinx was fine but it just took really long

IRL

i think that‘s why they changed it to,,, that

sigh

[dusty thistle]

Each legion wakes individually to learn their team. They learn the magician is in play

[uneven field]

literally just have legion wake to learn each other if no magician, wake separately if yes magician

[uneven field]

this is what I use

[dusty thistle]

Online, you should probably ping them

[fallow rapids]

cold idea:

Demon info is “These players are not the Demon”

problem solved

[uneven field]

yeah the online equivalent is "this is your team, you all woke together (no magician)"

[dusty thistle]

I'd just show them the magician token, which also works

[uneven field]

yes

it's such an easy fucking fix and they fucked it so badly

nobody likes this

[fallow rapids]

i thought that was the old jinx

[dusty thistle]

There was no old jinx

Which made it a little awkward

Then TPI overcorrected

[uneven field]

arif released the first ever played (probably) new legion magician jinx game in youtube video format recently

[uneven field]

understatement of the century

[fallow rapids]

i stand corrected

[dusty thistle]

Wait, wait, did they update it?

[uneven field]

"Legion know if a magician is in-play." it's that fucking easy

[dusty thistle]

Ignore me, I can't read

[uneven field]

Steven Medway meet me in a back alley

[fallow rapids]

i mean...

yeah so this is my custom djinn sheet

these unjinxes are so sad

i mean i get it

[dusty thistle]

I mean, they just folded those into mario's text

[fallow rapids]

yeah

[dusty thistle]

And the how to run

[fallow rapids]

i liked snitch though

[dusty thistle]

Ok yeah, we shall mourn the loss of the snitch jinx

Or we could resurrect it through the foul art of necromancy

[fallow rapids]

mourning the loss of a singular ’s

(did they really need to do this 😭)

[lost thistle]

what are these new legion jinxes 😭

“but they might learn they are legion”

genuinely would rather have unjinxed minstrel

wait right the vote fail part uh

ok that should still be jinxed

[lost thistle]

if its a minstrel day legion can still vote fail

just that
as the jinx
would be so much better

[junior knot]

so just never have any night deaths?

or i guess alternating since legion doesn't misreg on minstrel day

[lost thistle]

this is better than the minstrel directly learning that somebody is legion, yes

and also only if a legion gets exed

[junior knot]

if non legion gets exed then theres a good chance good is screwed

like...

[low umbra]

Well colloquially, ‘lleech host’ is much more commonly used than ‘lleech’s host’

[low umbra]

I mean I don’t think they’re good but at least they have an interaction (?)

[fallow rapids]

but “Lleech host” doesn't even make grammatical sense if you didn't know the lingo

[low umbra]

True but also meh

[fallow rapids]

i just killed the Butler master

[tough silo]

Script example pleaseeee

Sample i mean

[junior knot]

C'mon it's just riot at home

[modern plume]

This is a version I made with this combination for a little competition thing with specific restrictions.

Bootlegger rule for this script here was " Setup always makes exactly one outsider, which will be the Hermit. Only the Hermit may come into play."

[sinful onyx]

drunk damsel

actually anything with golem is fine for me

bc it provides the aspect of hermit bags not being immediately op for evil since golem is can be a townsfolk

[low umbra]

I personally really like Mutant with relatively less impactful outsiders

I’ve also enjoyed a hermit/damsel combo of damsel/snitch/recluse, but it’s not a combo I’d say actually works well or is usable in most environments

[next vault]

Ideally you get a piece of paper and say "X, Y and Z are good"

[sinful onyx]

actually drunk hermit is great for balancing reasons

bc ideally drunk vs drunk hermit are not very distinguishable

so hermit bags again, isn't instantly more evilsided than non hermit bags

as opposed to face up hermit

[grizzled marsh]

Baron?

[modern plume]

Yep, the script has Baron

[grizzled marsh]

What is it doing?

[modern plume]

Adding Hermits

"If the Storyteller would gain the Baron ability, up to two players become Outsiders."

You can use this to create duplicate outsiders, such as Hermits

[grizzled marsh]

Oh so it's only for plague doctor?

[modern plume]

Specifically the Hermit (who has the Plague Doctor & Mutant ability), but yeah

[uneven field]

[30/01] Come up with a brand new Outsider

[keen crescent]

I like it when the good team doesn't just policy execute outsiders. To that end, "If you are executed, turn evil that night."

[uneven field]

I've got a similar one

Deserter (Outsider): When you die, the Demon may choose a dead player to become evil.

this is on a script with another on death outsider, a mutant-like outsider that needs to stay hidden, and a tinker-like outsider, where one of the demons specifically benefits from keeping outsiders alive

[dusty thistle]

Extrovert (outsider): You have all outsider abilities not on the script [-0 or -1 outsiders]

[keen crescent]

Ron: "There is an extra outsider. [+1 outsider]" (alternatively could be called bar, up to personal preference)

[uneven field]

blank token 🔥

[keen crescent]

I mean tbf its a really convenient bluff wrt positive o-mod. Also is still something interesting to do for the player in that they can find the extra outsider and form a circle of trust off that. probably works best with decently punishing outsiders, to counteract that effect.

[uneven field]

it's like if a librarian was even more miserable

[keen crescent]

Anyways, this is probably a bad idea, but "YSK an evil player. If you are mad that they are evil, they can't die, even if you are dead." (maybe amend to 'a player'? I feel like the possibility that they create an immortal demon is enough to make them shut up about their ping tho)

[lean isle]

Is the first part active? 👀

[keen crescent]

same wording as baron

hence the name

[uneven field]

I also have one similar to that! which I have shown off in here before

[keen crescent]

damn we have like all the same ideas 😔

[uneven field]

the aforementioned mutant-like

Sycophant (Outsider): You start knowing an opposing player; if you are mad that they are evil or that you are the Sycophant, you change alignment & lose, even if dead.

[keen crescent]

imo it doesn't actually need the "or that you are the Sychophant" clause, in the same way that harpy or cerenovus don't need "or that you were [harpy/cere] picked" clauses, but very cool.

[uneven field]

it's so that it stays hidden

[keen crescent]

no but like, my point is that even without that clause claiming to be the sychophant is arguably a madness break

[uneven field]

the intention of the script is that outsider count is very hard to parse

[keen crescent]

since it makes people think anybody you claim to be good is actually evil

[uneven field]

this is true

[keen crescent]

I mean, its probably nice that its there anyways, for clarity's sake, but i digress

[uneven field]

I like to somewhat bad-ST-proof my homebrew characters though

[keen crescent]

fair enough

[uneven field]

anyhow, neither of these two are actually brand new at all, they're Boats suite outsiders I came up with ages ago, so here's an actual new one

Harbinger (Outsider): When you die, dead evil players may choose to resurrect. If no evil players are dead when this happens, a good player becomes evil.

[tough silo]

Too big

Harbor: On Day 3 the game ends if and only if youre dead.

Beaker: Each Night, Choose 2 Players, they might register as a different character or alingment tonight.

[uneven field]

clunky ability text is my speciality

[barren sun]

Cursed: Your team can't win

[uneven field]

too weak, it's just disabled when it dies with no consequence, it should be even if dead /j

[junior knot]

The whole game is just trying to get the mez word and convince/trick the cursed to say it

[karmic rose]

Vaultkeeper (Outsider): If the Demon kills you, they choose an ability to gain (not a Demon ability). You might survive execution.

is it good? no! does it make you seem like an intermittently DA-protected evil? yes!

[acoustic chasm]

I seeee

[karmic rose]

(this does realistically need more restrictions -- actually using this to double up on a DA ability breaks everything)

[low umbra]

Add heretic into the mix and it becomes an ‘ST decides game outcome’ script but literally

[fiery sleet]

Surgeon (Outsider)

If you died today or tonight, the Demon may choose a player and a non-Demon character they become.
"Did you know that barbery and surgery were once the same profession? No? Well, now you do."

[uneven field]

funny

[fallow rapids]

my peakest outsider is

Last Chair (Outsider) [⊕]

If 1 of your alive neighbours is evil, the 1st time evil players die by execution they live but register as dead, even if you died by execution.

Scampbert (Outsider) [⊕]

When you die, Minions act twice from now on. You might learn who this affects, even if dead.

i am a heavy campaigner for the “affect” keyword

[uneven field]

this is very difficult to read

[chilly trellis]

Meddler (Outsider): One minion may register as a good townsfolk or one townsfolk may register as the evil demon

[junior knot]

Sleeper (Outsider): you do not wake.

[uneven field]

okay now THIS is a blank token

[junior knot]

Not true

It's immune to nwm confirmation

Also you can't count when you vote or see what people show you on the scripts

[dry sluice]

like you have to close your eyes for the entire game?

[fiery sleet]

"Hi guys I'm the Sleeper--"

"You are executed. Good night everyone"

||The devious remains at large||

[dry sluice]

Contrarian (Outsider): When the game ends, if you lost but you spent your dead vote on the Demon, then you switch alignments and win.

I've been toying with the idea "Character who wants to be right, even if no one believes them." Idk if this is the right way to implement it

[uneven field]

I don't think this is an outsider

but it's also not a townsfolk

it is not helpful, or harmful

[fiery sleet]

Politician is an outsider because it has an incentive to harm town

This is just "Play for good, and if you get the correct world you can still win"

[uneven field]

contrarian has an incentive to... vote on the demon?

if there were such a thing as outsider-minions, this would make a decent outsider-minion

[dry sluice]

Contrarian has an incentive to vote against the majority in f3

I agree it's not very outsidery, but it's not neutral

[uneven field]

not really

no more than any other good player who disagrees with the majority does

[fiery sleet]

It actually doesn't matter whether you vote with the majority or not

[uneven field]

you should be voting for who you think the demon is, no matter what

[dry sluice]

not really
(which I think is a flaw in the execution of the idea)

[fiery sleet]

If you join town to execute the demon, great
If you go against town to vote wrongly but they still get the demon, you still win
If you go against town to vote the demon correctly, you win uniquely

Like, this requires:

1. Town doesn't know who the demon is
2. You do

For it to do anything

[uneven field]

like okay, you go against the majority to vote someone who probably isn't the demon but maybe might be? and in doing so either do nothing to really affect the vote at all, or tie the vote and lose because the majority you voted away from was right

realistically you always just vote who you think the demon is

or you vote against majority in only the cases when it doesn't affect the outcome at all

[dry sluice]

or you lie to make sure there's a voting majority and then vote against it
but sure
realistically probably not a good implementation of the idea I want

[uneven field]

in which case it isn't an outsider

[fiery sleet]

but why

[uneven field]

why would you ever do this

[fiery sleet]

If town hits the demon you win regardless

This has no reason to ever create false worlds

[uneven field]

what you want is a neutral character on neither team with an alternate win condition

[dry sluice]

feel free to suggest an implementation!

[uneven field]

this would only work with the same design philosophy as other social deduction games' jesters and executioners

[dry sluice]

well idk if there is one unfortunately

[uneven field]

we can try

[dry sluice]

BoTC only has a few neutral characters with alternate win conditions rn

the design space is small

[uneven field]

botc has no neutral characters

every character is always on a team

[dry sluice]

i mean in the sense of Politician/Ogre

[fiery sleet]

Ogre is notably on someone's team and poli can win with either good or evil

There are no characters that uniquely win or lose without their team also doing so

[junior knot]

recluse in an atheist game?

[dry sluice]

Right, Ogre/Politician are neutral characters but accomplish this by having an "alignment"

[uneven field]

what I'm saying is contrarian would kind of only work if it weren't good or evil to begin with

[uneven field]

no

[junior knot]

contrarian should be an outsider mayor

[dry sluice]

not interested in arguing over the definition of a neutral character

[junior knot]

where instead of their team, just them

[uneven field]

ogre, politician, goon, ||prisoner,|| etc are not designed to be neutral, they are designed to be problematic for the good team by sometimes putting the player in specific contexts where they would benefit from playing for the evil team

like how the butler and the zealot are designed to be problematic for the good team by restricting good voting independence, and the mutant, damsel, etc are designed to be problematic for the good team by incentivising the player to lie about their character and make up fake information

they are outsiders

[junior knot]

or drunk by making town distrust their info/making info arbitrary/unreliable

they still want the good team to win

they just have mechanical affects that hinder that

[fiery sleet]

Or snitch by giving every Minion 3 bluffs

[junior knot]

as well as the whole lacking info/positive ability thing

[dry sluice]

we don't need to enumerate every outsider here haha

[uneven field]

a character that disrupts its team by being incentivised to vote against the demon could exist... but it would have to be evil

otherwise it wouldn't be disrupting its team

again, if minion-outsiders were a thing this would be a good one

[junior knot]

the word you're looking for is thrall cass

[dry sluice]

a good character with an additional wincon, like Politician, should be incentivized to go for it at the expense of good's wincon

either by lying or by doing the wrong thing

[uneven field]

that is not how the community uses that term

[junior knot]

isnt it?

minions that hurt their own team?

[uneven field]

right, but voting for the demon isn't at the expense of good's interest

[dry sluice]

yep
Contrarian hurts the good team, but I certainly overestimated the fraction of the time that they actually do so

[fiery sleet]

Not really? Politician can always just play for good if they want to

[junior knot]

only if thats easier than winning normally

[uneven field]

I've seen the word thrall used for vizier, fearmonger, and marionette, as in, people have (very incorrectly) argued that they are minions that accidentally don't help evil that much

[junior knot]

thats not what a thrall is

thrall is a minion that hurts the evil team

[zenith lotus]

but they are incentivized to play for evil, since in a game where the goal is to win, you like being able to win with both sides

[junior knot]

vizier and fm have been called thralls by more vocal haters

[dry sluice]

If I say "vizier/marionette/fearmonger is a thrall on this script" then I do indeed mean worse for evil than a blank minion

[fiery sleet]

Marionette kinda is a thrall tbh

[junior knot]

so you always come out on top 😄

[fiery sleet]

It's literally just Drunk but -1 Minion

[junior knot]

incorrect

its also a +1 chef number

and people push less on neighbors

[uneven field]

willingly outing that you're bad at the game like this is crazy, couldn't waterboard that out of me

[dry sluice]

Marionette is a thrall if you put it on a random script

[fiery sleet]

Wow I love voicing opinions in civil ways which people take as an opportunity to insult me

[dry sluice]

That's kind of rude Cass

[junior knot]

marionette is a thrall is an opinion you can get to once you are good at the game

bc you don't need the social benefit if you are good at lying

[uneven field]

sorry I didn't mean it seriously, my bad

[junior knot]

and bluffs are kinda not that usefull anyway

[uneven field]

that was unwarranted trash talking

[uneven field]

I find marionette more effective with experienced players if anything

[junior knot]

i will say mario Savant is useful because you can get statements the ST would actually give

[fiery sleet]

Marionette takes away any mechanical benefit and voting power that another minion would provide (unless you out to your mario, in which case it's just a blank minion token)

Unless it's like mario fish

[keen crescent]

Here's an idea that might make your outsider work @dry sluice,
"You are the alignment of the player you spent your dead vote on. If you do not, good can't win, even if you are dead."

[junior knot]

recluse/poli/fauxpaw moment

and what if you survive to final 3?

or final 2

[keen crescent]

I think the almanac can clarify that if you never die until final 3, the second clause doesn't apply.

or maybe it could be "You are the alignment of the most recent player you've voted on, even if dead. You must vote at least once."

[junior knot]

also you could just get your corpse nommed and vote on yourself

feels like that'd be the meta

[keen crescent]

that's still a wasted ghost vote

which is the point of the character

[uneven field]

I don't know

it's a weird one

[keen crescent]

I was just workshopping. Personally, I really like the idea of an outsider incentivized to vote for whatever the good team isn't voting for, so I thought I'd take my own crack at it.

[uneven field]

make a very esoteric homebrew script and maybe it could be fun-quirky

I think the self voting thing should be patched

just add a (not yourself) and it's decent

[keen crescent]

yeah

[dry sluice]

Interesting
Or just "When you dead vote on a player, you become their alignment"
Kinda can't vote in f3 at all though

[keen crescent]

imo the idea of the character is that optimal gameplay consists of holding your ghost vote until final 3, then voting for whoever is not going to be executed.

[fiery sleet]

Yeah

[keen crescent]

sry the thing I was saying was wrong

[uneven field]

...which is kind of boring

[keen crescent]

but what I meant is like, if you think good found the demon, you are incentivized to vote on a good player, and if you think good hasn't found the demon, you are incentivized to vote on an evil player.

and then that gives evil extra votes in final 3 to manipulate it

[uneven field]

I like "the last person you voted on" a lot better because then you being evil actually happens during the game

[fiery sleet]

I feel like then you just go until you hit evil and then never vote again

[uneven field]

politician can get away with being post game because they change by playing for evil during the game

[keen crescent]

my only issue with "the last person you voted on" is that it highkey becomes a townsfolk if its triggering multiple times midday

[uneven field]

you and I have absurdly different philosophies on playing alignment swapping outsiders

[fiery sleet]

If you say so

[keen crescent]

like, all you really have to do is make it say smth like "You are the alignment of the last player you voted on (different to yesterday). You must vote at least once each day."

and bam, tf

[uneven field]

as goon, I do not want to be stuck evil

[uneven field]

advanced cult leader

[fiery sleet]

This isn't goon tho

You can always swap back to good at the last second

[keen crescent]

honestly, it might not even need the different to yesterday clause. Knowing for certain a player is evil is a really strong incentive to turn good and out them, a la mez

[uneven field]

right, but same idea, if I'm the contrarian and I turn evil, I won't necessarily want to stay evil

[keen crescent]

cuz you can solve a lot of worlds w/ ur info.

[fiery sleet]

why not?

[uneven field]

because the incentivised playstyle for goon, politician is not to play for evil, it's to play for yourself, ideally you want to get off the sinking ship before it starts flooding

[fiery sleet]

Right and contrarian can do that the instant they see trouble

Just dead vote on someone good

[uneven field]

I suppose

[keen crescent]

actually, I think there's an argument for it just being a tf without all the extra stuff if it happens on normal living votes. It has the ability to get an obscene amount of VI info and then just turn good before they die and be in a really strong position.

[uneven field]

maybe

[keen crescent]

and since the info comes in the form of alignment changes, any time you switch you know for certain that its true

[uneven field]

I don't know, it's a weird one

[dry sluice]

for most alignment floppers, you ideally want to stay good until the last possible moment
because evil (usually) only wins in f3, but if a game gets to f3, evil has a better than 50% chance of winning

[junior knot]

eh not necessarily true

[uneven field]

raising my eyebrow at that statistic linus

[junior knot]

a +1 evil vote throughout the game can strongly swing things the other way

i think linus is saying demon is 1 in 3 so town has a 33% chance to get them

[dry sluice]

hmm, fair

like you can keep all your evil buddies alive from d1

[junior knot]

which is a gross oversimplification as it ingores all the other stuff going on in a game

[uneven field]

forget the vote, a +1 evil worldbuilder and misinfo sharer can swing the game

there's so many cases of evil teams with an extra player dominating even when half the team is dead

this is one of the reasons fang gu is so busted

[fiery sleet]

And even without evil votes, evil worldbuilding does so much

I've won a TB game where my demon got executed d1 by painting a very specific world with coordinated poisons + kills

[uneven field]

most of the time such evil teams dominate so hard that they never even end up having to dead vote

one of my Boats characters is a townsfolk that can get rid of evil dead votes and it's been criticised as pretty weak by some people because... that usually doesn't do much in practice

[sinful onyx]

Bomb (Outsider)
If you die, you boomdandy:explode at dusk

[keen crescent]

damn I highkey actually kinda like that

mostly, I think with a particularly experienced group itll have a really interesting script prescence of people who would otherwise not need to trying to bait a demon kill to keep the bomb alive

[heavy sundial]

Miliner (Outsider): If you died today or tonight, 1 Minion may choose a good character's ability to gain.

[keen crescent]

maybe this will be the on-death outsider my regular play group won't just immediately disregard as "not that impactful" and not even bother hiding or killing.

[uneven field]

[31/01] Now make a Minion

[barren sun]

Queen (Minion): Each day, you may publicly switch the player about to die by execution and reset the nomination tally.

Suddenly you spent 2 dead votes on the Saint

[fallow rapids]

Crescendo (Minion)

Each night, choose 2 new good characters: if both are in play, the Demon acts twice tonight.

Triton (Minion)

Each night*, choose a player: they learn they were chosen by the Triton and do not act tonight.

Switch (Minion)

You have 1 of 2 other Minion abilities. Each night, which ability you have might change.

Dal Segno (Minion)

Previously learned information may be learned again.

i am literally just dumping my WIP homebrew here

[keen crescent]

I'm desperate for more madness abilities, and this was the first thing to come to mind. I lowkey really like it.
"Players who are mad that you are evil might die."
works best on bmr-like environments with lots of death, and as an incentive for players to not out generic evil pings. Storytellers should show restraint and not kill entire towns who converge on a true world, but still punish them for speaking so openly. Deaths can happen at any time.

Alternatively, gf is one of my favorite minions of all time, but its death mod is very annoying for scripting. To that end, I present:
Dogmother (minion): YSK which outsiders are in play. You start by choosing a player: they are poisoned. If an outsider died today or tonight, you may change your choice. [-1 or +1 outsider]

(probably needs many tweaks)

[uneven field]

does this reset people's ability to nominate/be nominated too?

or is that included in nomination tally

wait, is amount of votes needed to put on the block not included in nomination tally? because that's what I initially understood by nomination tally

[uneven field]

I like crescendo a lot, I've fiddled with similar concepts

weird for it to be EN and not EN* though

[ruby bone]

Pukka

[uneven field]

just pukka

could be a jinx

or moreso they just might not be as compatible together to begin with

in most cases the crescendo wastes two guesses on night 1 to learn nothing

I think a strength of it is verifying claims you get

Dal Segno is interesting

[uneven field]

love to see it (same)

to that end

Poor Man (Minion): Twice per game, at night*, choose a player: if you choose the Demon on the same night they choose you, your team wins. You do not know your team and they do not know you.

Gourmand (Minion): Each night*, choose a good character: if this character is not in-play, you become them.

I think poor man needs a bit of tinkering

I did twice per game instead of once because I wanted it to be slightly more likely to proc, but given it's a lock with two keys I don't think it actually increases the odds by any noticeable amount

[warped urchin]

Wouldn't poor man just... out publically the moment it hits n2

And now u have goodies pretending to be poor man so that doesnt happen

[uneven field]

yeah I want this script to be a "you might want to bluff evil" script

[warped urchin]

Fair

[uneven field]

like, poor man can out publicly, but then they still have to pick the demon on the same night the demon attacks them

if the demon ever hits them on a night they don't hit the demon, the poor man just dies

maybe I should change the wording to attack to make that more clear

[keen crescent]

Is there a world where opg at night pick a player if you choose your demon you win you dont know your team and vice versa doesnt just work in an interesting way? In a sense, they are racing the good team to solve the world.

[uneven field]

so you can out poor man instantly, but then the demon has to out too or else it doesn't work

[uneven field]

it would be too powerful

[barren sun]

Peopleay nominate and be nominated again; the player on the block still has the same number of votes; spent dead votes are not given back

[uneven field]

remember that the rest of the team is also looking for the poor man, and there's power in private chats

[keen crescent]

I'm moreso wondering if there's a version of this character that's not "convince your demon you are this and coordinate with them" but instead "find your demon before the good team"

bc I feel like the latter is a really interesting space to be in

[uneven field]

the meta then becomes to just hold until late game while subtly telegraphing to the suspicious people that you're the poor man, and if you're alive at final four then you basically just win

(oh and also there's resurrection on this script)

[keen crescent]

ig you are designing in the context of a script, so like, defo do what the script needs

I think, perhaps in the abstract, there's a character concept that works like this. Maybe an outsider? "opg guess the demon. if correct, become evil"

[uneven field]

that's a pretty fun outsider

my initial ideas were "minion that doesn't know its team and vice versa" and "minion that is the huntsman"

[keen crescent]

my main concern being that they might be incentivised to use it to solve final 3, either turning evil or confirming the demon.

[uneven field]

sure

they could always lie

[keen crescent]

fair enough

a bit like politician in that sense then

[uneven field]

I like that one, develop that one, it has potential

I love outsiders that are problematic for the good team but not for themselves

I wish there was more in that niche

[keen crescent]

real

[ruby bone]

Politician my beloved

[uneven field]

outsiders that just encourage self-serving play

[heavy sundial]

Countess (Minion): Outsiders are poisoned. [+? Outsiders]

[uneven field]

this is an unreleased townsfolk

[ruby bone]

This seems not helpful

[keen crescent]

I'm a huge ogre fan, it slots nicely into a middle ground there, where as long as you put full faith in your friend you'll probably turn out fine, but the good team just cannot reliably trust you wrt your alignment, or even the identity of your friend.

[heavy sundial]

it depends which outsiders are in play

[ruby bone]

Outsiders are meant to hurt good tho

I don't see how poisoning them helps evil

[uneven field]

again, this is the ||blacksmith||

[heavy sundial]

stuff like moonchild, golem, puzzlemaster etc are still harmful when poisoned

[keen crescent]

puzzlemaster is not a harmful poison

they already weren't going to guess correctly, and you just removed the main part of their ability that helps evil by poisoning them

[heavy sundial]

I don't think it's true to say they were never gonna guess correctly lol

[ruby bone]

This is nothing that can't be done better by Poisoner

[heavy sundial]

I mean poisoner can't add outsiders lol

[keen crescent]

Its true if you consider expected value: the odds that they identify the puzzledrunk and make you lose vs the odds that the misinfo the puzzledrunk spreads hurts town is just not comprable

[uneven field]

we've talked about the poor man, but what are people's thoughts on the gourmand? it's on the far simpler side but my idea was 1. to make an info-gathering minion that works like the gambler, and 2. (script specific need) to put suspicion on some of the more hard confirmy good roles

[heavy sundial]

notably the poisoning would go away when the countess dies though

[valid garden]

Way ahead of you o7

[uneven field]

me when xaan

[heavy sundial]

and xaan can't drunk outsiders

[uneven field]

because that's not especially helpful to its team

[keen crescent]

I just feel like there's very few outsiders you actually want drunk, and even if you do want them drunk somtimes, you don't want them drunk for a solid portion of the game

[valid garden]

Okay but the poison is the downside

Right??? Am I the only one who sees this

[keen crescent]

the jarl just posted only works because it adds an obscene number of outsiders

[heavy sundial]

I mean that's also the idea with countess

[valid garden]

What do you think +? outsiders does

[uneven field]

+? could be +0

[valid garden]

But why

[ruby bone]

The issue with +? is that it's up to the ST to make it good

Anything lower than +2 is worse Baron

[uneven field]

I still don't really like jarl but it's slightly better in that it has to add a shit ton of outsiders

[heavy sundial]

I think that is a non-issue personally

[valid garden]

Anyway Jarl needs a demon with [-1 outsider] and also The Drunk

(or similar)

[keen crescent]

also, it just kinda is shitty baron on +2

[uneven field]

I think countess could work better if it allowed duplicate outsiders in-play

[valid garden]

Otherwise it's a thrall

[heavy sundial]

however I think we are also collectively spending way too much effort arguing about the viability of a silly minion I made up for fun

[keen crescent]

eh fair

[acoustic chasm]

Yes and no

[ruby bone]

Is that not the point of this channel tho? To give feedback on roles?

[acoustic chasm]

No

[ruby bone]

Oh

[acoustic chasm]

This is secret thing

Not homebrew

[keen crescent]

I mean this is secret thing so kinda no

[uneven field]

then it suddenly becomes helpful again, because evil can bluff outsider freely

[keen crescent]

the question today was just abt minions

[ruby bone]

I've misunderstood secret thing 😭

[acoustic chasm]

Yeah

[keen crescent]

I highkey was gonna suggest this

[acoustic chasm]

It's fine

[heavy sundial]

I do like that idea cass

[keen crescent]

also solves the problem of being worse at high base outsider count

[uneven field]

you guys skipped over gourmand, I want gourmand feedback 😭

[keen crescent]

and fits the spirit of the ? in terms of opening bluffing space

highkey there's not much I wanna say abt gourmand

it feels a lil like a nothing burger at times? I feel like there's not many good roles that evil cares only abt if its in play. And even then, there's not many good roles evil wants to be.

[uneven field]

(am I just asking all these "make a character" questions to get feedback on the custom script I'm working on? maybe)

[keen crescent]

lol valid

I feel like it has boffin-y issues in that it just won't do all that much in the grand scheme of things without a very carefully made script

[heavy sundial]

do you stop being the gourmand once you become a good character the first time?

[keen crescent]

which, is honestly probably not even an actual issue

[uneven field]

it's definitely moreso to disrupt good confirmation on this script, but I can see the point about there not being a lot of good abilities evil would want

[uneven field]

yeah, become means the same as pit-hagging here, you stop being the gourmand entirely

you literally become the evil Sophist, or whatever

[heavy sundial]

this is just how I play pit-hag half the time then lol

[keen crescent]

its just like a, "this character works rather well in this highly specific environment, and not really otherwise, and that just has to be fine"

[uneven field]

that's very fair lol

[heavy sundial]

I'm not sure what benefit gourmand gives over pit-hag

[keen crescent]

oh mattie does make a good point that pit hag can just do everything this would do

[uneven field]

it is an entirely weaker pit-hag yeah...

in that a pit-hag can do literally exactly everything it can do and more

but then, pit-hag is very difficult to put on a script because of how powerful it is

[keen crescent]

What about "Each night, pick a player and a good character. If not in play, they gain that ability in addition to their own, and learn this"

[uneven field]

I'll probably tinker with it

[keen crescent]

maybe is a bit strong at low player counts, but does some interesting things interfering with confirmation.

[uneven field]

oh uh by the way this script has a pit-hag like townsfolk

[keen crescent]

I think my alt might work nicely on scripts where individual good abilities might not be too useful for evil, but if they get several then they can start piecing together worlds themself to know what everyone is

[uneven field]

like, this is what we're working with

Sophist (Townsfolk): If the Demon kills you, you are woken to choose a dead player (not yourself) & a Townsfolk they resurrect as.

this is meant to be a very mechanically chaotic script

it's a 14 townsfolk script rather than 13 because there's a townsfolk with setup text that reads [You are not in-play]

[acoustic chasm]

Mercenary (Minion) If no Townsfolk live, alive Outsiders become evil. Outsiders might know you are in play. [+1 Outsider]

[uneven field]

I'm not even finished with Boats, I just woke up one day and started putting all my ideas that were too cursed for Boats on their own much more esoteric script

[keen crescent]

gourmand could also work if it got a lil benefit if the character was in play was well

[uneven field]

this is probably something I'm going to take and run with

[keen crescent]

something like "en pick a good character, learn who they are if in play, or become them if not"

so they can go for info by picking things they think ppl are but can't tell who is them, or go for joining conf chains by picking something not in play thatll let them.

[uneven field]

Gourmand (Minion): Each night*, choose a good character: if this character is in-play, you learn who they are; if they are not in-play, you become them.

that is mildly better and I do like it

oh the inspiration for the name of this character and why it's evil (and what I would put as the token art) is the practice of eating ortolan birds, so have fun looking that up on the internet

[fallow rapids]

the script idea is “what if Barista was a bad thing, actually”

hi y'all i am the Flowergirl with Yes / No / Yes and No / Yes and No / Yes and No

(but the townsfolk on script are actually compatible)

[uneven field]

okay so you learn the old information along with the new information

[fallow rapids]

yeah

and if you're, say, harpy mad, that is technically information you can learn again

[uneven field]

LMAO

so it's very much a public minion

that's interesting

[fallow rapids]

on script there is an Outsider that is basically "players might act twice" so it could also just be harpy acting twice

it all depends really

[uneven field]

I thought it was like "you can't exactly trust repeating information because it could just be overwritten by Dal Segno" like a mathematician getting a 1 twice in a row can't entirely trust it

but if anything repetitive information is actually ideal here

[fallow rapids]

yep

[uneven field]

coda you're one of the foremost homebrewers here, what do you think of the Poor Man and the Gourmand

[fallow rapids]

gourmand seems like a super-boffin in this sense, since they basically start with the 3 demon bluffs they need to work with

poor man seems a bit weak?

by a bit i mean “either does nothing all game or wins” doesn’t seem like a very fun balance point for it

[uneven field]

fair on poor man

super boffin is an interesting way to describe gourmand

[fallow rapids]

i mean it‘s kinda +3 characters you can become for free

it‘s no pit-hag but it‘s better than boffin on a script where boffin is good

[uneven field]

I'm thinking about making poor man pick a player each night* but I'm worried it would swing it too far in the other direction

[fallow rapids]

why not “If the Demon publicly guesses who you are”?

oh and for gourmand Um, Actually it‘s “not in play”

[uneven field]

is it??? but all the ability texts say in-play with a hyphen

[uneven field]

I'm not a big fan of that

*character philosopher

*philosopher

[fallow rapids]

*role philo

[low burrow]

Philosopher (Townsfolk) - Sects & Violets

Once per game, at night, choose a good character: gain that ability. If this character is in play, they are drunk.

**Affects Setup: **False

[uneven field]

what the fuck is the command

[fallow rapids]

no hyphen

[uneven field]

oh shit

[fallow rapids]

hyphens are for prefixial adjectives

not-in-play character

[uneven field]

where did i get the hyphen from?

[fallow rapids]

this character is not in play

*role pix

[low burrow]

Pixie (Townsfolk) - Experimental

You start knowing 1 in-play Townsfolk. If you were mad that you were this character, you gain their ability when they die.

**Affects Setup: **False

[fallow rapids]

see?

[uneven field]

ah yeah

[uneven field]

I want to have it be a somewhat requirement that proper contact is established to avoid the play of just outing when you're on the block (even if good can bluff that)

I also think it's feelsbad to bait the demon into just outing publicly

I might try EN* choose a different player?

or EN* you may choose a different player

[low umbra]

Wouldn’t the issue be that it’s not bluffable o-mod?

Cause it’s just so much

[valid garden]

Yeah I explained

[dry sluice]

idk lol:

Cyclone (Minion): To good players, Outsiders register as evil Minions; Minions register as Demons; and Demons register as good Outsiders. [+0 or +1 Outsider]

[fiery sleet]

Pulling from my homebrew bank again, here are 2:

Nemesis (Minion): Your good nominees & nominators are poisoned until tomorrow at dusk (or from now on, if they execute you).

Miasma (Minion): 2 Townsfolk are evil and start knowing each other. [No Miasma]

[next vault]

??? (Minion) Once per game, you convince town of doing (something possible) whatever you want. If they don't follow through, you team wins and the other has to pay for dino nuggies.

Not a serious character, name is ??? because it's named after someone

[junior knot]

Tinker 2 (minion): ENCAP, either of you might die at any time until dusk.

[barren sun]

[2/1] What's the characters' favourite series / movies ?

: Teletubbies

[dusty thistle]

Teletubbies

[acoustic chasm]

Teletubbies

[next vault]

Teletubbies

[fiery sleet]

Downtown Abbey

[barren sun]

Id actually say Little Einsteins for Choirboy but so far everyone else is correct lol

[supple dirge]

Mythbusters

[next vault]

Any of those "radical physical change" TV shows

[dense moat]

Teletubbies (they didnt know it was on)

[finite wigeon]

"Y'know, when you thematically break down the Emoji Movie--"

[dense moat]

Squid Game

[junior knot]

American

[next vault]

Christian Broadcasts

[severe raven]

doesn’t watch TV; instead watches Numberphile and Veritasium on youtube

[next vault]

🔥

[tough silo]

The Twilight Zone.

[fiery sleet]

I think amne's favorite would actually be something with either an amazing twist or that was 90% good but ended badly, because they forget about it and keep enjoying it over and over

[tough silo]

The Twilight Zone fits the bill

Teresa (any mexican TV show drama)

Posession

American Beauty

[hollow oasis]

Truman Show(Laughs at Truman)

Truman Show(Identifies with Truman)

[fiery sleet]

The Hangover

[tough silo]

Four Lions.

The Matrix

Fallout New Vegas

[fiery sleet]

Fallout New Vegas

[tough silo]

Banshee?

[coarse fern]

Teletubbies

[foggy grotto]

nah is on that Wheel of Fortune grind

[low umbra]

I’d say it more aligns with tbh

Though I suppose two people can have the same favourite

doesn’t watch anything except Facebook news feeds and actively participates in them on a daily basis

[lost thistle]

This Old House

[tough silo]

Twin Peaks

[supple dirge]

Taskmaster

[junior knot]

nah, is either flubber or three stooges

is almost certainly pirates of the Caribbean

[uneven field]

The World's End (2013)

It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia

Better Call Saul

Bumfights

The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City

Sex Education

Community

Everything Sucks!

Atypical

I Saw the TV Glow (2024)

Black Mirror

(specifically Nosedive)

Unsolved Mysteries

Preacher

Banshee

Daredevil

(the netflix one)

The Wicker Man (1973)

Whiplash (2014)

A Serbian Film (2010)

A Serbian Film (2010)

The Umbrella Academy

Pluribus

The Matrix (1999)

Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (1989)

Get Out (2017)

[barren sun]

And then there were none
Heartstopper
The Addams Family
Kill Bill
The Corpse Bride

The Hunger Games (Wanted Coin the be president and hated the ending)

Conclave

[tough silo]

Wild Heart

The Kings Speech

Superman

[next vault]

[2/2] Replace a character from all base 3 scripts with any other character. How do you break the script?

[fiery sleet]

Atheist

[acoustic chasm]

I'll replace Soldier on Trouble Brewing with Tea Lady

This achieves the Monk Protected Tea Lady in TB which creates 3 Townsfolk evil can't kill, unless they have a poisoner

[foggy grotto]

replace mastermind with boffin

on BMR

or with summoner

[coarse fern]

TB
Imp —> Leviathan
SNV
Fang Gu —> Yaggababble
BMR
Shab —> Al Had

Yaggababble obscures pit hag signaling making solving for vortox pit hag very very stupid and annoying. Al-had doesn’t work with most death mod because it is extremely obvious when other kills happen. TB doesn’t work with leviathan for fairly obvious reasons

[karmic rose]

shoutouts TB with Leviathan

[hollow oasis]

I can break all of em in one go

1 singular character

[coarse fern]

TB with Leviathan is simply not that fun for half the characters

[hollow oasis]

TB: butler-->heretic

BMR: goon-->heretic

SNV: Sweetheart-->heretic

alternatively:

TB: imp--> Legion

BMR: pukka--> Legion

SNV: Vigormortis-->Legion

of course

TB: baron-->vizier

SNV: Cerenovus-->vizier

[fiery sleet]

TB: imp --> Al-Hadikhia

[hollow oasis]

BMR: Da--> Vizier

[fiery sleet]

BMR: Leviathan

[hollow oasis]

ok for less easy methods

[fiery sleet]

Swapping vortox for basically any other demon on SnV kinda breaks it

[hollow oasis]

vortox-->Legion is not

the

craziest... thing ever

like genuinely

[fiery sleet]

Clockmaker

[hollow oasis]

Vig-->Legion breaks it because Legion is the shittiest negative O-mod ever

[fiery sleet]

Oh and snarmer too

[hollow oasis]

a 1 isn't a chef 6

[hollow oasis]

right.

[fiery sleet]

TC, FG, and oracle can also find it pretty easily

[hollow oasis]

I hate clock legion a bit less than normal

[fiery sleet]

As can artist

[hollow oasis]

"Vortox tho"

[fiery sleet]

or juggler

[fiery sleet]

Well if we're swapping out vortox

[hollow oasis]

I'm suggesting vigor tbh

[fiery sleet]

Vig for legion still leaves open some worlds

[hollow oasis]

anyway

[hollow oasis]

it still sucks

although

[fiery sleet]

yeah

[hollow oasis]

....

let

[hollow oasis]

[2/2] CHALLENGE MODE (you may only swap Townsfolk)

[fiery sleet]

^

[hollow oasis]

Atheist is like

[fiery sleet]

Professor on TB or SnV also kinda breaks them

[hollow oasis]

it's not unplayable

[fiery sleet]

No, but it makes things very difficult for evil

More than professor usually does

[hollow oasis]

TB:WW-->Lycan

[fiery sleet]

Gossip would also be pretty broken in TB

[hollow oasis]

SNV:TC-->Lycan

BMR:Chambermaid-->Lycan

[fiery sleet]

Courtier on TB

[fallow rapids]

Pacifist →

Poisoner →

Pit-Hag →

[hollow oasis]

fair

[fiery sleet]

Poppy Grower on BMR

[hollow oasis]

Cult leader on BMR

and it's for tea lady

[fallow rapids]

3Ps of script destroyal if removed

[fiery sleet]

Pacifist is definitely the odd one out here

[hollow oasis]

pacifist would be fine removed

evil just needs to like

not have a skill issue

[fiery sleet]

I don't think it's fundamental to BMR in the same way poisoner and pit hag are crucial for obfuscating worlds

Following this logic, the most damaging character to remove would be assassin

Or shab tbh

[hollow oasis]

it's not shab

it's assassin or po

[fallow rapids]

assassin

Po is whatever

[hollow oasis]

Po is necessary for "double tap lmao" to not be like

actually good strategy

[fallow rapids]

pacifist kinda fucks over science when removed

insert the opg paci syndrome where evil keeps killing neighbours of dayprot

then tea lady doesn't science and da and zombuul get fucked over

[hollow oasis]

does it tho

[fallow rapids]

yes

[hollow oasis]

isn't this a skill issue

[fallow rapids]

i see it happening all the time

[fallow rapids]

no that's optimal play issue

[hollow oasis]

is it optimal play when the shab kills 2 TF and you don't know anything

[fallow rapids]

i mean yeah i'd say so

[hollow oasis]

who tf are you executing then

[fallow rapids]

tea lady becomes like 60% of the saves

which is really annoying honestly

[hollow oasis]

tbh I think you could swap out a different TF and make BMR much worse

[fallow rapids]

prolly

[hollow oasis]

tea lady comes to mind

but like

[fallow rapids]

TL is fine when out it just makes day 1 really boring

“fine”

[hollow oasis]

makes the game pretty evilsided tbh

what are you gonna do

execute the sailor?

evil can just stab pacifist saves

or frame them

[fallow rapids]

i mean the alt point is that removing Gambler and Sailor is also bad to remove

prof... prof is whatever

[hollow oasis]

prof/Chambermaid/Fool would be my "these aren't good enough"

I distinctly hate chambermaid

[fallow rapids]

BMR is just too interconnected for a playable removal that isn't prof cm fool lunatic

[hollow oasis]

I’m still a fan of “math for cm”

[fallow rapids]

math is a decent CM replacement

[hollow oasis]

It makes protection easier to track

Oh and you can get a 9

Like

[fallow rapids]

cinema

[hollow oasis]

you can straight up get a sober math 9

It involves exorcist

[fallow rapids]

sailor poisoned spending assassin
po charge death sailor save
po charge death TL save
po charge death TL save
godfather death IK save
IK poisoned moonchild
lunatic miss
goon poisoned chambermaid
courtier drunk professor
TL tinker save

here's 10 with shenanigans

now in 2minion

[dusty thistle]

I replace imp, no dashii, and pukka respectively with lleech. This causes all sorts of wonderful issues.

[valid garden]

Tinker death TL save
Tinker death TL save
Tinker death TL save
Tinker death TL save
Tinker death TL save
Tinker death TL save
Tinker death TL save
Tinker death TL save
[...]
Tinker death TL save

Here's 1,273,236 with even more shenanigans

[grizzled marsh]

That's 1

(Also math is so bad on any bmr-like script)

[valid garden]

The HTR contradicts that from what i can see

Each time a character's ability works abnormally due to another character's ability, mark them with an ABNORMAL reminder.

[junior knot]

for example a po hitting both TL/innk protected players

or shab

[grizzled marsh]

It's always fun to have the ability text and HTR say different things 😭

[valid garden]

Yeeeeaup

[hollow oasis]

Doesn’t work, Po is only 1 character

and thus only upticks +1 and not +3

[hollow oasis]

I could work with a 7

[valid garden]

See above HTR

[hollow oasis]

I

Love

Jank

so much

[hollow oasis]

That only goes up to 11

Assassin

Da and mm don’t cause any more math upticks

[lost thistle]

SNV
Clockmaker->Engineer

[hollow oasis]

That

Ok it’s bad

But you could definitely do better by swapping like

Tc

[lost thistle]

witch->summoner

[fiery sleet]

Swapping clock is like one of the least bad swaps lol

[lost thistle]

i guess you could swap something else but i just love how engineer ruins snv

[uneven field]

professor catching a stray for no fucking reason

[fallow rapids]

Fuck That Guy In Particular

[uneven field]

I'd argue it's hard to ruin S&V since it already sucks big ones

that said, if you want to make virtually any script worse, there's an easy method

replace any demon with riot

[barren sun]

Swap Minstrel and Pit-hag , now both scripts are ruined

[next vault]

🔥

[hollow oasis]

Oh I know

Add huntsman/choirboy for any TF

[karmic rose]

2/3: What's the most scuffed win you've pulled off recently?

[hollow oasis]

Ooh

BMR

me and the DA doubleclaimed fool (accident)

The da was just kind of outed evil

We executed them

They died

Then, the tinker clocked the entire evil team.

but was so cagey about being the tinker, (combined with the gossip that 2 of these 3 players is evil, that set being the tinker, the evil goon, and the dead zombuul)

we managed to frame the tinker.

and execute

the tinker

frame them as evil to hell

they get double tapped

oh look it’s f3

we execute our dead DA

win because the demon killed the last good player

[keen crescent]

I also had a really scuffed bmr ending recently

I was the DA, neighboring the pukka

The final 2 days consisted of me mistiming a DA protect on my demon on 6 going to 5, with an assassin kill to 4 that same night