secret thing

[modern plume]

As well, Evil can double claim the Heretic

[dusty thistle]

Quilava, how do you come up with these ideas?

[hollow oasis]

How does that help

[sinful onyx]

it just works

[dusty thistle]

They're so good, and I can't do it

[modern plume]

Because on Mastermind day, Town must execute a Good player

[hollow oasis]

Other problem with Levi heretic is “just sleep past d5”

[dusty thistle]

How do I learn this power?

[modern plume]

If its a Heretic game

[sinful onyx]

study a waltz with insanity 10 times every day

[hollow oasis]

Notably MM straight up isn’t helping

If it weren’t there evil would’ve just won

Leviathan is already not helping

look my advice is unjinxed godfather

[modern plume]

King would be on the script

[hollow oasis]

and hermit

and mutant

and silent vizier…

[modern plume]

I just keep exploring ideas and thinking over combinations.
Many ideas are abandoned as "Untenable", but sometimes I find some that just work well together.

[hollow oasis]

And

Yeah you get the point

[sinful onyx]

i mean it works

leviathan heretic isn't touched alot bc

heretic is a townsfolk regardless

[hollow oasis]

Leviathan becomes a thrall and heretic thus becomes a TF

[sinful onyx]

even if you counter it it's still a tf

[modern plume]

Usually I look for pairs of characters that are 'odd' together and see if there's a third that does something unusual with the two.

That's how I got Minuit with Mastermind, Vortox, Lleech.

[dusty thistle]

Interesting.

[hollow oasis]

I do actually have a Levi heretic script

[sinful onyx]

yeah...wait why does minuit has poisoner on script

[dusty thistle]

Wait it does?

[modern plume]

All 'pairs' have probably been explored already, so anything interesting really requires looking at least at interesting trios

[sinful onyx]

boffin alch vizier

[hollow oasis]

Legion pacifist is a pair

But like

[dusty thistle]

It's been explored

[hollow oasis]

do you know how much that barely works

[modern plume]

I have that on Dullahan

[sinful onyx]

i mean you can make waltz without heretic

[hollow oasis]

That script had engineer

[sinful onyx]

heretic is required only bc vigor immortal demon

[hollow oasis]

No not really

[sinful onyx]

just remove vigor

[hollow oasis]

That’s the point

[dusty thistle]

You added engineer?

[sinful onyx]

it still has 80% of its point without vigor

[hollow oasis]

No I’m talking about that other release script

On the BOTC website

It had pacifist legion engineer mayor

Pre jinx change

[dusty thistle]

I honestly forgot that Separation of Church and State had paci

[sinful onyx]

if you ask trio eh

vortox poisoner toymaker is a trio and i have a script

[hollow oasis]

It’s like one of the main characters 💀

[sinful onyx]

-# maybe this is the wrong channel now

[dusty thistle]

I think I can do that on a smaller scale. Spin Doctoring grew out of vortox-lil' monsta-chambermaid.

[hollow oasis]

remember that all conversations die after a channel swap

[modern plume]

I have one script I still need to finalize, not sure if it's really to my satisfaction yet but it has a lot of weird niche interactions.

The script is gonna be called Emmental Catalepsy. Turns out, there's a lot of weird stuff one can do with Boffin & Scarlet Woman

[dusty thistle]

Shitty livevoice custom syndrome didn't.

[hollow oasis]

Huh?

[dusty thistle]

You haven't heard of the shitty livevoice custom?

[sinful onyx]

I actually have the trio

[hollow oasis]

Dawg I don’t play livevoice, livetext, or longtext

[dusty thistle]

This discussion

This was the result of someone putting poisoner x fang gu in https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1399777176902963360

[hollow oasis]

No recollection

[sinful onyx]

I'm also like tempted to put math here

i think it works in the vision that you only give possible numbers

don't give a 10

[hollow oasis]

It’s pretty bad

[dusty thistle]

I believe axo said it was a symptom of shitty livevoice custom syndrome, and we put a bunch of characters livevoice loves but mesh horribly.

[sinful onyx]

i calculated

[hollow oasis]

Because 3 roles wake n1

[sinful onyx]

only 1 and 2 are available on n1 non vortox

so if you only give 1 or 2 on n1 it's an ambiguous 50/50

[modern plume]

Mainly focused around these characters for Emmental Catalepsy

Boffin-Acrobat allows Demon to essentially starpass to their Scarlet Woman without losing tempo. Pukka can pick their old target, die, sober up their old target, make SW into Pukka who still gets to pick that night.

Boffin-Recluse on Vigor allows for undead Vigor continuing to kill while Scarlet Woman also becomes a Vigor.

Boffin-Alchemist-Scarlet Woman allows for the Demon to change characters if the (sober) Recluse dies.

[sinful onyx]

boffin recluse vigor scarlet

yes

[dusty thistle]

Are we sure on the double kill thing?

That makes me a little jumpy, ngl

[hollow oasis]

Boffin recluse on the vigor

Vigor dies

[dusty thistle]

No, are we sure it's a good idea?

[hollow oasis]

they register as a minion to their own ability correct

[modern plume]

The script would include death mod and protection roles.

[hollow oasis]

Then passes to the SW

[sinful onyx]

actually tho i think math -> cannibal is the best bet i have for math

i think it's not too bad

bc there are only 2 other towns aside from math, not 5

cannibal is funny for the fact that eating an evil still gives them guaranteed false info

[dusty thistle]

How did the question about what change you'd make to the base 3 become spitballing script concepts?... When I type that out it makes more sense.

[sinful onyx]

dunno

[modern plume]

I think with the topic of "Don't put BMR characters anywhere else" came up

[dusty thistle]

Yeah, that was me, and then we began discussing gossip

[hollow oasis]

Ok vigor kills itself, registers as a minion ability, and passes to SW?

is that correct?

[sinful onyx]

yes

[dusty thistle]

And then Golden Border of Prester John came up as an example of it working, and then I mentioned poisoner was in a similar boat, and it went downhill from there.

And so here we are, discussing a way to have a dead killing demon without zombuul.

And I should probably log off.

[uneven field]

I haven't until just now realised that "the outsider count has not been modified" as a savant statement immediately disproves vortox on S&V because all the outsider mod is demons

adding that to my comically long list of reasons why S&V is a shitty shitty script

they honestly should just add sentinel to S&V, it would make it marginally less awful

[hollow oasis]

The worst part is I’m starting to agree with you on “SNV is bad”

but this is because I’m a BMR supremacist

[uneven field]

everyone likes to disagree with me on this matter because I come off as overly negative but the facts are that it really is just that bad

nobody likes to badmouth or bring down or admit that TPI can in fact do wrong, but S&V is just a poorly cobbled together barely playable mess of a script, and the more exposure most people have to it the more they kind of have to square that fact

[sinful onyx]

I do think TPI is wrong sometimes

And snv might be the biggest mistake they made in contrary to their other decisions

But if you look at it from the standards of a homebrew

I think it’s not bad compared to the good full homebrews

It probably doesn’t stand the test of time but that’s bc it’s tested much more than other scripts

And the fact that a good chunk of its stuff works on custom makes it maybe

Still somewhat nice

[fallow rapids]

i‘ve definitely agreed more with cass on SNV being bad the more i play it

Mutant’s local optimum just is really boring, Sweetheart is arbitrary droison on a script with none of it, and all the Minions aren't very interesting except for Pit-Hag

SNV is just kinda “the Pit-Hag script” to me

most of the Townsfolk are good though

[chilly trellis]

snv is a 1 demon script and the demon is pithag

[fallow rapids]

that's an amazing description yes

[hollow oasis]

Ok in Fairness sweetheart is actually damaging because of that

[fallow rapids]

perhaps but it feels very clunky

they could've done something else i‘m sure

[hollow oasis]

I have issues with the fact that SNV without pithag tends to become

“Bluff pithag”

or

“Die if the demon type is Vortox or Nodashii”

[fallow rapids]

accurate

[hollow oasis]

(Vigor manages to survive if flowchart)

[fallow rapids]

Vigormortis gets beat up with Oracle though without pithag

[hollow oasis]

and fang Gu is fang Gu

[hollow oasis]

Cerenovus

[fallow rapids]

ain't no way cerenovus snipes an oracle

[hollow oasis]

I once found an oracle through a juggler claim

[fallow rapids]

do oracles refuse to hide or something

it's like, one of the decent hiding roles on SNV

[hollow oasis]

And I cere-locked them as an outsider THE ENTIRE GAME

[fallow rapids]

this is also why SNV sucks btw

[hollow oasis]

We sold fang Gu

[fallow rapids]

Cerelocking is the local optimum for Cerenovus

which is just. really not fun

[hollow oasis]

I mean isn’t that just Cerenovus in general

[fallow rapids]

yeah

cerenovus sucke harpy is better

[hollow oasis]

Tbh I kind of don’t care

[hollow oasis]

Harpy tends to be “you have to be mad as something you’re not AND mad someone is evil based off of no evidence”

I dislike harpy

can you tell

Cerelocked is like

Fine

sometimes breaking is smart

Sometimes you accidentally tpk

[fallow rapids]

make scripts where harpy mad people actually could have evidence

[hollow oasis]

that’s 1 script /j

[chilly trellis]

harpy on snv frrr

[hollow oasis]

please no

[fallow rapids]

don't

[hollow oasis]

Holy madnesscoded

[simple crystal]

I personally find being cerelocked fun tbh

it's like

an interesting challenge

[hollow oasis]

Personally when I’m the mutant, I claim good minion d3

“Guys, there’s a pithag” because I have some fucking whimsy

Unlike the evil team

[simple crystal]

harpy I am very "eh" on since I imagine it takes a very particular group & meta for it to be both fun and useful, rather than either oppresive or useless like it often is

[hollow oasis]

who are COWARDS

[fallow rapids]

Pit-Hag people into Witches for once

smh

[hollow oasis]

Or dreamers

Or philo dreamers

or snake charmers

[fallow rapids]

you're on the Pit-Hag script do cool Pit-Hag things

[hollow oasis]

Or make a good Vortox then tell them “if you don’t say anything we’ll make you the new fang Gu”

[fallow rapids]

Pit-Hag yourself into SC and jump

[hollow oasis]

Alternatively works with nodashii

Personally:I think my vision for SNV has mech roles bluffable by the minions

If I were to totally redesign SNV, you would get something very close to “It’s voting time”

(But like, good. Because we don’t have the TF for IVT to be good)

Nor the demons really

[low umbra]

Actually love the evil team of Its Voting Time tbh

[hollow oasis]

The problem is pukka

[low umbra]

Yeah, agreed

[hollow oasis]

It’s a “best of 3 evils” situation

(Nodashii,Pukka,Vigor)

Problems?

Nodashii:Pacifist+Alch DA

Vigor? ET+Goblin

Pukka? Ehhhhh it’s just not great but here we are

[hollow oasis]

You might be one of the first people to like DA there that isn’t me

[fallow rapids]

voting time has loud DA right

idr the script

[hollow oasis]

(I think the paci/DA dilemma with Vortox is cool)

[hollow oasis]

The cover is Pacifist and Alchemist

Which is… enough

The evil team is like 4 safety nets

[fallow rapids]

mm yeah I'd say that's enough

[hollow oasis]

ET/Goblin/DA/Pit-hag

[fallow rapids]

Alch DA is kinda worse Pacifist though

[hollow oasis]

But consider

“Choose again”

[fallow rapids]

why does that change anything

[hollow oasis]

It’s meta-able now

[fallow rapids]

and Pacifist isn’t???

[hollow oasis]

2 flavors

[low umbra]

Yeah I think it’s a neat combination

[hollow oasis]

It’s technically a Minuit thing but I’m doing it with LEGION

Let’s see IVT has

-I’m trying to make Legion Vortox work

-Execution survival side game

-pithag

It’s a bad script rn because of that but it’ll be good in the future I swear

[fallow rapids]

have you tried midsy-ing it

[hollow oasis]

Uhhhhh

[fallow rapids]

if there isn't enough characters for a full

[hollow oasis]

I’ve been using fisherman and like, cannibal recently

They’re

fine

They’re good placeholders

The biggest problem is the misinfo suite REALLY NEEDS a non Vortox/Legion misinfo demon

And pukka

Is not good enough at that

especially against pacifist, which is kind of busted rn

Where the hell did it go

[sinful onyx]

why can't it be nodashii

[flat lintel]

do we have a question today

[pseudo fulcrum]

found it

[cold veldt]

add “tomorrow night” to the end of professor

[uneven field]

I've said this many times and I'll say it again, if S&V was a custom script and not a base script, I'd take one good look at it and tell the person who drafted it that it's a really bad custom script

I misunderstood that original post, I don't play homebrews so I wouldn't know, but I imagine it's probably still worse than a good amount of them

I've been shitting on S&V for a very long time, and one of the more common rebuttals I get from people who know in their heart of hearts that it's bad but that don't want to completely admit it is "well, it's been tested by TPI way more than any custom could be tested, so by virtue of being a base it's still better built than the vast majority of customs"

and to that I say

no

I've played many many customs and most are better than S&V

I've played many bad customs and most are still more fun than S&V, because S&V is bad in a uniquely unfun way whereas a lot of bad customs are bad in a fun way

[uneven field]

I've been saying it

[uneven field]

I guess I've just been blessed by good groups but I don't understand this very much at all, how useful harpy is is proportional to how seriously the ST takes madness, and the correct amount is always "you are earnestly trying to convince others that you believe this naturally"

that in mind, I don't find it oppressive either, because having to be mad that someone is evil is a lot more abstract than locking you into a claim, you can be very creative with harpy madness

[modern plume]

I don't find Cerenovus madness oppressive. Even in customs that had madness roles vastly stronger than the Cerenovus, I've found plenty one can do to play within it; even when I've been madness locked into claiming game losing assertions if believed, I've still won.

Among the base 3 as well, SnV is my far by favorite and has a lot of roles I love like Vortox, No Dashii, Mathematician, and Savant.

Even in games where I've been Cerelocked the whole game, I've been more annoyed because the Cerenovus wasn't changing up my claim to make it more of a challenge.

[lost thistle]

what was today’s question again

[modern plume]

@lost thistle

I answered "Rename Drunk and Evil Twin to avoid overloaded terms"

[uneven field]

go back in time and change something about base 3

[uneven field]

that's more up to one player not being the lynchpin for an entire game if anything

[tough silo]

Good questionss

[fast anchor]

fix prof/shab; either letting the Shabaloth bluff a n2 prof rez (moving the asterisk from "each night" to "they die" is janky but Malvora suggested it and I think it's neat) or not allowing the Professor to resurrect the player who just got executed

[uneven field]

meant to reply to the one previous, not that one

[uneven field]

I do like a lot of the characters on S&V, I just think they're bad on a script together

the ones I don't like are very few, vortox, fang gu, cerenovus, mutant

I guess that's not very few

it's very few considering

[tough silo]

Dreamer is the role seeing Virgin in my opinion

Clockmaker is just better Chef thou

[uneven field]

dreamer is very very powerful but I recognise that that is the townsfolk philosophy of the script

[tough silo]

Dreamer is the virgin of S&V

[modern plume]

I love them all together on S&V. It's heavily mechanical with interwoven mechanical implications between all the roles, requiring Evil to play much more clever to trick the town. Most of the misinformation has traceable causes allowing strong deductions even through falsehoods, while also including Cerenovus & Mutant to introduce madness and additional computational complexity that undermines the powerful info town might have.

[uneven field]

dreamer is the undertaker of S&V, it's not mechanically confirmable beyond info

it's just a very busted undertaker

[tough silo]

It is socially confirmed

[uneven field]

different

[tough silo]

Lets do a count to 3 and i say your role!

[uneven field]

that is the undertaker

crucially also, dreamer is not the only townsfolk that can confirm itself this way on S&V, just the easiest

[tough silo]

For a reason cerenovus is in script

[grizzled marsh]

Make TB more accessible, or slightly more spicy for more advanced players to enjoy it more when you get a new player

[fiery sleet]

Make snake charmed/barber swapped vigor not remove dead minion abilities

[uneven field]

which

more accessible or more spicy

how do you make TB more accessible in the first place, it's dead simple

id also argue it's still very fun for advanced players

[hollow oasis]

Pacifist

[hollow oasis]

VORTOX??

[uneven field]

is that really so controversial?

that is one of my colder takes

I am a take inferno and that is a wet cobble on a winter morning

I guess you haven't seen me talk about The Vortox Problem

I consider vortox to be a cavernous time sink, there is a near inevitable point in any non vortox vortox script game where it is obvious that it is not a vortox game and yet 80% of all town square discussion is wasted on "but what if it is though?"

[hollow oasis]

That’s like

[hollow oasis]

No yeah that’s what I hate about SNV

but like

That isn’t really an inherent issue, that’s literally because SNV is bad at hiding it

[uneven field]

the savant could learn that there is a virgin in play and then proc the virgin and people would still build vortox somehow, and the only way to stop that is by hard vortox checking, and even then I've been in games where people said "okay we HVC'd but what if the poisoner hit the vortox"

[fiery sleet]

Vortox is kinda necessary for SnV to function as a script

[hollow oasis]

I mean if town has a skill issue town has a skill issue

[uneven field]

and if you try to push for a HVC just to get people to shut the fuck up about obvious fake vortox worlds, as I often do, you look evil

[hollow oasis]

That’s not really Vortox’s fault

[uneven field]

when most towns have a skill issue related to a certain character, it becomes the character's fault for being so difficult

[hollow oasis]

I have never seen this need to happen

[hollow oasis]

yours

That’s a thing like, pretty specific to your group

[uneven field]

maybe I've just had exaggeratedly bad vortox luck, that is probably the case, but even if it's not nearly as extreme as my anecdotes, you cannot deny that towns have a general proclivity towards wasting aeons of time vortox catastrophising

[hollow oasis]

Uhhhhh…. No not really

[uneven field]

my group doesn't have this issue because I'm the ST and I don't run S&V

this is a botcu grown observation

[hollow oasis]

Like the most “is it Vortox” discussion” I do is

“For the love of god stop Vortox checking”

It’s already solved

[uneven field]

this is precisely my complaint

[hollow oasis]

I don’t really think “people are bad at solving it” is a complaint mainly because like

BMR exists

That issue is magnified 10x on Bmr

[uneven field]

people aren't bad at solving it, they solve it and then disregard that they've solved it

the irony is that vortox is such a detectable demon

[hollow oasis]

If I said this was a TB side effect

[hollow oasis]

And it’s less cool for that

I like it

[uneven field]

I honestly wouldn't complain so much if people had this tendency but it was genuinely a hard solve

[modern plume]

Every claim here just makes Vortox more interesting, not less to me; all these cases you explore show unique possibilities for Evil to reach through, to take risks that use the strengths of a character to their advantage.

If it's so difficult to consider alternative possibilities because of the mechanics of a character for a group, such a group would find any game of intrigue and deception difficult.

[hollow oasis]

It produces a fun misinfo suite but goddamn

Why does SNV hard solve it, do you really want to be only reliant on pithag

[uneven field]

again it's not difficult, it's just willful ignorance, and the problem is that it's a time sink

[hollow oasis]

Something something poisoner teaches bad habits

[modern plume]

Then your anguish should be against the willfully ignorant rather than the scripts that won't placate them.

[uneven field]

near every vortox script causes this effect

ergo, I don't like vortox

this is standard reasoning I feel

[hollow oasis]

The weird thing is I haven’t seen what you’re describing ever

[uneven field]

character is unfun for me, I don't like character

[hollow oasis]

So I’m seriously questioning where not to go

[modern plume]

"Causes this effect" So people suddenly change as thinkers just in the sight of the Vortox? They have all their faculties of mind sound and functioning, but stops operating the moment they hear 'Vortox'?

[uneven field]

you're being sarcastic but it really feels like it

[hollow oasis]

That’s me with poisoner in fairness

[modern plume]

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm asking about the implication of your claims.

[uneven field]

this is how the vortox works in universe by the way so it's just so good at its ability that it transcends reality

[versed junco]

A mental mez word perhaps

[hollow oasis]

Seriously though, Vortox in my ideal universe would be hard to solve until f5/f3

[modern plume]

"So good at its ability" and also "it's not difficult" (in response to acting against it) are in conflict

[uneven field]

I was clearly joking

[hollow oasis]

1st was a joke

If you hate Vortox you’re really gonna hate ||GoS||

[modern plume]

I am aware of the joke written, the rest still makes the claim of the quality to the Vortox as rebuttal.

[uneven field]

the joke being "vortox the entity is so powerful that its ability to confound minds and reverse information works on real people in our universe"

[hollow oasis]

It’s not even that good at it if people like

Remember that Vortox won’t go anywhere

[uneven field]

nerdguy I probably will

[modern plume]

Yeah, that's hyperbole. I'm aware what hyperbole is; you're still asserting to the quality of the character though in rebuttal.

[hollow oasis]

Would you like Vortox assuming 10 clones of you

[uneven field]

I want to be clear, precisely none of this was genuine character quality commentary, all of it was meant jokingly

[uneven field]

my real opinions on vortox is "it's easy to solve and annoying to have on a script but not in-play because people will ignore that it's solved and waste a large amount of time discrediting all information"

[modern plume]

I've won as Evil multiple times off town genuinely believing Vortox was easy to solve and that it couldn't be in play, choosing to not execute anyone, believing Vortox was hard confirmed not in play, and the Vortox win con triggering.

[uneven field]

if I was playing with a town of people that agreed with me on the vortox problem? it would be far less of an issue but I would still rank it low

[hollow oasis]

Alright

[hollow oasis]

I really feel like this is a “I’ve played with poisoner too much” kind of thing

[uneven field]

the primary reason for me disliking vortox is The Vortox Problem, if you remove that it's still not like an incredibly interesting demon

it's not my personal style of character

I think that's easier to tell if you have the full context on which demons I like the most

[junior knot]

is it bc you don't find it hot? /j

[uneven field]

lmao

I mean a lot of the demons I do find hot are also demons that rank highly in mechanical preference, but that's probably the other way around in terms of cause and effect

[junior knot]

i thought it was the failures you liked though?

[uneven field]

this is a gross oversimplification of my taste in men

[junior knot]

damn it why does this topic keep taking over secret thing smh

[uneven field]

everyone else keeps bringing it up!

the demons I find most mechanically interesting are ojo, lil' monsta, lord of typhon, vigormortis, and zombuul, for the record

[hollow oasis]

See that confuses me more actually

[chilly trellis]

lot is the only one on there i can consider being attractive

[hollow oasis]

Yeah no that doesn’t help actually

In fact the opposite

[uneven field]

that is not what I'm ranking right now

but all of them besides LM are hot for the record

[uneven field]

what's up

[hollow oasis]

I’m now more confused

on why you dislike vortox

[barren sun]

Removing either the term "drunk" or the term "poisoned". Possibly "drunk" because of the character. They are redundant at least as far as I can tell. Im also one of the dozens of people who had hard time understanding the difference between one and other. Specially not understanding why wouldn't you tell a poisoned Drunk that they aren't allowed to choose two people, since they aren't the Fortune Teller

[vague pier]

Because you still need to keep up the illusion for the Drunk.
You wouldn't tell a Poisoned FT that they can't choose 2 players > You wouldn't tell a Poisoned Drunk who functionally thinks they're an FT that they can't choose 2 players either, else that outs the facts they are The Drunk and not The FT they think they are. And that then breaks the whole point of The Drunk.

I would maybe change the name of The Drunk to The Drunkard, but I've come to enjoy the fact that Drunkenness and Poisons have some distinction in name/sources. It makes for some really interesting Savant info :3

[zenith lotus]

swap the flavor for klutz and tinker

[vague pier]

It's like, semi-useful to have the general thought that Drunking comes from Good and Poisoning come from Evil.

Maybe unpopular take, both throw in the possibility of misinfo which in and of itself helps Evil. But thinking of Poisoning helping Evil to a greater extent than Drunking does. Yes I know thats not the point but eh, I like thinking of Drunking being more balance-y and Poisoning being deliberate action from Evil to help Evil.

I am also writing this at 2:30am so tbh maybe i'll disagree with myself when i wake up and pick back up the "Theyre the exact same but with different names, period" take

[zenith lotus]

go to bed smh

[uneven field]

what's to be confused about

[junior knot]

Wait normjay escaped from live text?

[uneven field]

I like demons with interesting, novel limitations

or big tradeoffs, you might say

[vague pier]

I browse through stuff sometimes

Not discussion though

Yall scare me

[uneven field]

ojo targets characters but not players, which is both a pro and a con
LM gives you an extra minion and lets you move the demon, but you don't choose kills
LoT gives you an extra evil, extra bluffs, and makes communication easier, but the whole team is in a line and therefore more traceable
vigormortis is a source of poison and guarantees minion abilities can stay in-play all game but requires you to sacrifice evil voting power
zombuul lets the demon literally die and keep playing, but has drastically less ability to kill

[hollow oasis]

Because like, so many of its archetypes are things you like

Mostly “Glass cannon”

[uneven field]

vortox uhh um aaa makes all the info wrong and forces you to execute and wastes time?

[hollow oasis]

And you lose as evil if it’s solved

[uneven field]

not necessarily

on any good vortox script that should not be the case

[hollow oasis]

My evil teams shit themselves and die whilst bluffing vortox in vortox

[hollow oasis]

SNV context

[uneven field]

keywords good vortox script

we're assuming a script that isn't dogshit

[hollow oasis]

I mean evil should lose if they bluff vortox in vortox

I’m sick and tired of that, it’s a bad strategy frame anything else

[uneven field]

no, let evil be versatile

[hollow oasis]

But “Vortox is outed because (insert artist question)” is also stupid

[hollow oasis]

This also applies to vigor

“Vigor flowchart”

[uneven field]

any sufficiently competent group will solve a vortox game, vortox is like legion in that you should be thinking ahead and assuming good might solve the demon type and roll with it

[hollow oasis]

Legion should also die when outed

Sell something

[uneven field]

you are wrong about demons

[hollow oasis]

I really hate outed legion winning

[dusty thistle]

Having seen good legion scripts and good vortox scripts, the demon loses when outed.

You need confounds. A lot of them

[hollow oasis]

Like, if the info is “it’s immediately legion” I hate that

[dusty thistle]

SnV barely had enough for Vortox.

[hollow oasis]

Fuck chef legion

[uneven field]

fucking TPI disagrees with you on this, legion are meant to have a few legion build legion

[dusty thistle]

That's fair, but the good team shouldn't build it.

[hollow oasis]

Ok, yeah, so it looks like not legion

[uneven field]

the good team will, eventually

[hollow oasis]

I’m talking about the entire evil team bluffing “it’s a legion game” in legion

[dusty thistle]

Or the good team should discard it. Just brush some legion off as a legion tunnel.

[hollow oasis]

You can make this not the case

I’ve done it every time Ive been legion

[uneven field]

I'm going to paraphrase Ben Burns here, so these are his words and not just mine

beginners find it very difficult to solve legion, for less experienced groups it's a difficult to detect demon, but veterans are going to solve legion 99% of the time because it is actually quite a detectable demon, in veteran play groups there needs to be legion players bluffing that they're in a legion tunnel

[hollow oasis]

What is detecting legion

The Chef?

The oracle with a 5?

[uneven field]

and those are the ones you keep alive to final 3

[hollow oasis]

Legion should be able to sell not legion

Otherwise it’s just not fun

[uneven field]

in veteran play groups, you shouldn't be deathly afraid of giving out legion solving info, because evil can be bluffing that too

[hollow oasis]

I’ve seen wayyyy too many sloggish outed legion games

[dusty thistle]

He's playing off TB on expert mode from that quote. Which is a notoriously bad legion script. A good legion script, ex: Roundabout, makes it so that you get the good players to discard legion works if legion does their job. Sure some are going into a legion tunnel, you say they are evil or they are just tunneling.

[uneven field]

remember that legion's win condition is convincing one singular good player

[hollow oasis]

Wait, lol

[hollow oasis]

I indeed like making that harder in outed legion

Like by using pacifist

[dusty thistle]

You need to convince a good player that it's not legion, and that they can trust you.

[uneven field]

you need to convince a good player to vote for the other good player in final 3

[hollow oasis]

Sell not legion and that’s possible

[dusty thistle]

Which you do by making them think it's not legion

[uneven field]

sell legion and that's also possible

[hollow oasis]

But if you try to sell legion “the mechanical role wins”

[dusty thistle]

It depends on the script. TB on Expert Mode? It might work. Roundabout? Nobody will trust you.

[hollow oasis]

A legion script worth their salt shouldn’t have “drunk evil or legion” for the only possibilities from any info

Flowergirl is much better than FT

[dusty thistle]

If you have to start framing other good players as legion, the situation has gotten dire, and you're making a hail mary to win the game.

[uneven field]

you don't need to bluffing chef with a 7, you can still just build legion

[hollow oasis]

that’s why i have pacifist

[dusty thistle]

It's ultimately just not a good primary strategy.

[hollow oasis]

To explicitly fuck that over

[uneven field]

your team has like 9 players, someone on the team should cover that base

[dusty thistle]

It's a workable backup strategy, but it's not a primary one. The best way to do what you are saying is not give the good team enough time to think too hard about legion worlds. Do it immediately, you die

[hollow oasis]

1 person saying “it might be legion” is fine

That’s realistic

[uneven field]

literally what I've been saying

[dusty thistle]

Oh yeah, a small group going into a legion tunnel is fine. Especially if they're known for it.

[dusty thistle]

Oh so this has been a large misunderstanding. Nevermind

[hollow oasis]

We’re talking about like, “66% of the evil team is saying it’s legion”

[uneven field]

?? I was never suggesting this

[dusty thistle]

We were thinking you abandon all prentense

That's usually what most people are arguing, so we kind of assumed

[uneven field]

id like to think I would have garnered a little more credibility by now, come on guys

[hollow oasis]

I really don’t think legion should win if they out themselves (socially/maybe mechanically too) and wait

[uneven field]

it's not outing yourself to have one of you tunnel legion, it's quite the opposite

[dusty thistle]

Oh absolutely not. There is one exception, being magician. That has its own problems with coin flips on f3, so it's actually worse.

[hollow oasis]

I mean treating “legion outing” as inevitable is not fun

[uneven field]

also you'd hate my legion script

[uneven field]

not legion outing, good building legion

[hollow oasis]

Magician legion is utter dogshit

[dusty thistle]

Oh completely garbage

[uneven field]

the new jinx is basically a hate jinx

[dusty thistle]

You just sleep to f3 and flip a coin

[hollow oasis]

Like, there’s a difference between “offhand idea” and ultimate tunnel

Which one do you mean

[uneven field]

in many cases i believe veteran groups will eventually come to feel quite strongly that it is legion

[dusty thistle]

I've heard one of the best feeling in clocktower is replicating that in a non-legion game

[hollow oasis]

I’ve seen a veteran group or 2 not believe legion(this is usually because of how I play legion)

[uneven field]

nerdguy I have an unfinished script that would give you a heart attack

[dusty thistle]

I want to see this

[hollow oasis]

I tend to get those after seeing legion scripts

[uneven field]

it unfortunately cannot be finished until after some new townsfolk are released

[dusty thistle]

Nerdy here is the #1 legion expert on the server, I need to see Parker's reaction.

[hollow oasis]

Why did I pick legion to be my favorite demon (wail)

[uneven field]

it is in desperate need of swapping some characters out but the right characters don't exist yet

[dusty thistle]

So it's the same as nerdy's?

[hollow oasis]

Sounds like mine

[uneven field]

I don't know yours

[dusty thistle]

I also have a legion script btw

[hollow oasis]

I have an entire demon slot with pukka being the best of 3 evils

[uneven field]

it's legion zombuul

[hollow oasis]

Um

I don’t

[uneven field]

I swear I had this script idea before ten pin tolling

[hollow oasis]

Immediately hate it

[uneven field]

nono, you will

[hollow oasis]

It has oracle doesn’t it

[dusty thistle]

Ok, surely it's better than that piece or shiterature.

[uneven field]

that's not the controversial part, if I already lost you then there's no hope

[dusty thistle]

surely

[hollow oasis]

You haven’t

[uneven field]

no

[hollow oasis]

Oh yay

[uneven field]

hold on let me pull it up

[dusty thistle]

Here's my legion script

[uneven field]

it's not meant to have legion detectors

[hollow oasis]

Sounds like good things to me

[dusty thistle]

Well that's already a good sign

[uneven field]

okay

couple of notes

chambermaid and slayer are not meant to be there

[junior knot]

PD Mez votefail is kinda hilarious

[uneven field]

this is also pre jinx reform, as you can tell by no magician legion jinx icon

[dusty thistle]

The annoying thing is this should probably be updated to after the jinx reform, because as it stands poli sucks here

And just toss the magician

[uneven field]

so ignore the current jinxes, these are the jinxes

[hollow oasis]

No thus is pretty good

[uneven field]

i know its good but people hate it

[dusty thistle]

Just get rid of the politician

[hollow oasis]

Poli mez/ poli legion

Is like

The only problems

[uneven field]

i have also been given this feedback but there are currently no outsiders id rather put on it so again i simply have to wait until they make new ones

[hollow oasis]

Uhhh

[uneven field]

i should have mentioned poli with cm and slayer, to be clear it is also going

[hollow oasis]

I mean like

It’s a good script

[dusty thistle]

Butler?

[hollow oasis]

Eh

[uneven field]

no

[hollow oasis]

Butler isn’t

[uneven field]

it does not align with my creative vision

[hollow oasis]

The same here

[dusty thistle]

It's not but, it's butler and butler is cool with legion

[hollow oasis]

Significantly less good with zombuul kill tempo

[uneven field]

I think ||prisoner|| would go hard here

[dusty thistle]

Ah

[dusty thistle]

||Remind me what it does again?||

[hollow oasis]

||Prisoner|| legion

[junior knot]

What about stuff for double claims like pixie mutant

[uneven field]

||you cannot vote, ysk either a not in-play townsfolk or minion, players can vote to free you and if they do you become it and its alignment||

[junior knot]

Also god I love farmer legion

[junior knot]

|| This feels more like a traveler ||

[dusty thistle]

||Not sure on that one, seems like it could cause vote fails||

[uneven field]

||that's because it's essentially the outsider version of apprentice||

[dusty thistle]

||It's like the beggar's apprentice.||

[uneven field]

||bluffing it requires you to not vote at all||

[dusty thistle]

||Oh, I thought it could vote once freed||

[uneven field]

anyways it's candidate #1 to replace politician

[uneven field]

||it can||

[dusty thistle]

||Well, what if it's evil once freed?||

[uneven field]

||then it can cause a vote fail if only it and legion voted||

I don't think that's a problem

[dusty thistle]

||Eh true, it's certainly better than cult leader, which is similar in this regard||

[uneven field]

||if legion lets that happen, they knew the risk||

||hell, if the prisoner lets that happen, they knew the risk||

plague doctor mezepheles already allows for extra evils to be made in a legion game on this script (in a very storyteller controlled environment) and that's a role I want the fourth outsider to fulfil too, that's why the placeholder is politician

politician is a bad fit though because the storyteller can't control it that well, ||that's why it's prisoner's spot||

I don't want pixie or farmer on this script, to address previous comments

[barren sun]

I understand why, but it took me a while to understand why would you wake up the Drunk, since if they are poisoned, they shouldn't be able to think they are a TF.

[barren sun]

My favourite type of characters:

[uneven field]

looking through the list of what might be good to swap in in place of chambermaid and slayer and I think ||queen and beekeeper|| could be interesting

[junior knot]

I would like to point out lunatic goon is a home script interaction as well

[uneven field]

no actually ive thought about it and ||beekeeper|| is very bad here

[steel wraith]

change BMR so there's no resurrection

[hollow oasis]

so valid

[uneven field]

what do you put in place of shabaloth

[junior knot]

Ojo

[uneven field]

acceptable

I don't think it really fits the theme though

[junior knot]

i mean honestly just do shab, but instead of regurgitating just give it like a red herring soldier type thing

[uneven field]

hate it

shabaloth is fine actually, go play S&V if you don't like peak

[junior knot]

i mean yeah

but this is how you change it so theres no rez

[uneven field]

I like resurrection

[junior knot]

ok but you asked the question

[uneven field]

you should have given a better answer

[junior knot]

no

[uneven field]

make a new BMR demon, go on

[5/1] Make a new Demon that fits the theme of BMR

[hollow oasis]

||Palabra de dios||

So hear me out right

[uneven field]

NEW

[junior knot]

(this is under cust scripts, not homebrew btw)

[coarse fern]

Each night* choose a player: the Professor dies

[junior knot]

also clarify, are we replacing one or adding a fifth

[junior knot]

john destroyer at home

[hollow oasis]

consider the idea though

[uneven field]

dealer's choice

fits the theme of BMR

[junior knot]

body snatcher: EN* CAP: one of you dies. The other player becomes an evil body snatcher.

or heaven forbid: ||Lleech @hollow oasis don't kill me 🙏 ||

[uneven field]

||dolomite|| at home

[hollow oasis]

I will actually

[junior knot]

i dont consume homebrew

this is all off the dome

[uneven field]

it's not homebrew it's unreleased

[junior knot]

or spec spoil or whatever that nonsense is

[hollow oasis]

.... it's homebrew

[uneven field]

🫵 this mf doesn't have the piglix almanac

[hollow oasis]

Source: it's bad

[hollow oasis]

who the fuck uses the piglix almanac

[uneven field]

I do

[junior knot]

piglix id assume

[hollow oasis]

it's old now

[uneven field]

I know

[hollow oasis]

you should buy the new one

[uneven field]

there's a new one?

[hollow oasis]

....yes

[uneven field]

crazy

where??

[junior knot]

fuck it we ||barrow fog||

[hollow oasis]

check Dms

[junior knot]

|| im actually trying to make a midbrew barrowfog bmr style script and god is it so freaking difficult ||

|| or hybrid or whatever you call it ||

[uneven field]

I can't believe I have to check my fucking emails

[hollow oasis]

The process is important

mostly: bureaucracy is humorous

I will note that my greatest running bit is a website called "Doobius Car Insurance"

It's literally only a scam

[finite wigeon]

Shabyaglott (Demon) -- Each night*, choose 2 players: they die. A player you've chosen might be revived tonight.

Shab but it can now bluff Professor

[fallow rapids]

Each night, choose 2 players: 1 dies. If a player you chose last night was executed today, you may choose again.

[steel wraith]

Cruunuul (Demon): Each night*, choose 3 players: they die. Each time someone you pick doesn't die, you choose 1 less player from now on (minimum 1).

The Cruunuul kills agressively, but loses momentum when encountering resistance. (Replaces Shabaloth)

Bonus character: Electrician (Townsfolk): On your first night, choose 2 players. If either dies, you learn what killed them, and the other cannot die to that source (even if you die). (replaces Professor)

I don't know how balanced these are, I just came up with these on the fly

[fallow rapids]

tbh this good part of this Demon is actually the Storyteller choosing the better kill

[steel wraith]

earlier iterations of Cruunuul included:
EN*C2P: they die, and exorcist but it only affects you
EN*C2P: they die, but if good doesn't outnumber evil among living on final day, good wins
EN*C3P: any might die, those who don't can't die until dusk
EN*C3P: 2 die, the 3rd can't die until dusk
EN*C2P: they die, but you don't act N2

[warm gate]

Tyrant (Demon):
Each night*, choose a player: they die. If your last choice was a Minion, choose 3 players tonight.

[uneven field]

ah yes, the Poo

[warm gate]

eh tbf it's not exactly meant for BMR and was meant to fill a niche on a custom script I was making

[uneven field]

"make a BMR demon"
looks inside
not meant for BMR

[fiery sleet]

Scabaloth (Demon): Each night*, choose a player: they die. On nights 2 and 3, choose 2 players instead.

[barren sun]

I've 2 from my homebrews
ENC2P: They are sober and healthy from now on. Each day, you may visit the Storyteller to kill all previously chosen players tonight.
(Seems OP)
EN*C2P: They die. All players know an alive good player.
(Loud Demon)

[brave wasp]

uhhh can I dm you for entirely unrelated reasons

[sinful onyx]

Eternity (demon)
Each night*, choose a player: they die. The 1st time you die, you live & register as dead, but die again if any dead evil player was or is executed.

[vague pier]

EN*C3P: they are marked as Targetted. If a Targetted player is chosen, they die.
yet another Delayed Multikill Demon

[junior knot]

Does it have to be mechanically?

Like a moonchild bluff for example?

[grizzled marsh]

Choose one, rn i feel like it's right between "not accessible enough" and "too easy once you've played more than X games"

And for today "Each night*, choose a player: they die. If you choose a dead player this way, they live instead."

[vague pier]

is this to my theorectical demon? if so, i dont get the qn

i also just spewed smth out in 5mins

xd

[vague pier]

mmmm so a.... controllable shab?

[junior knot]

A player claiming mooncild but doesn’t have the ability chooses a targeted player

[vague pier]

ah

If the Target is specifically chosen by this Demon, they die

[sinful onyx]

isn't this stronger po

[vague pier]

if it's anyone interacting with a Targetted player, thats kinda bonkers for it to be C3P

[vague pier]

possibly

probably

was thinking maybe it can bumped to 2, but it's an answer for funsies so idrc about the exact details :3

[sinful onyx]

I looked at my homebrews and i can't find 1 multikill that fits

is crazy

[vague pier]

my other answer would've been "EN*CAP: they die. If they are protected, poison them instead." but as if we need more droison sources on BMR

(also IK protects already do this, so it really only matters for TL and Sailor)

(ykw yeah it's even worse than i initially thought)

[dusty thistle]

EN* CAP, they die. On even numbered nights, choose an additional player, they die.

Ojo but worse: EN* you may choose a player, they die. If you choose nobody, deaths tonight are arbitrary.

[fiery sleet]

that's not ojo at all

[dusty thistle]

I'm joking that the Ojo can actually do that.

[dusty thistle]

For reference, this was originally the ST kills two

But this is better

[fiery sleet]

Yeah, I've created basically the same demon myself from first principles

I think it's a good design

[barren sun]

[8/1] What are the characters's favourite songs?

[warm gate]

Bach Mass in B Minor

[fiery sleet]

I Just Can't Wait to be King

[uneven field]

very good

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=wXazRYGAFwE&si=wAxuk9PNUL7J_1RB

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=mZj85Qe0pzc&si=4OkGXaiZEXdR2R01

[supple dirge]

You know that one song that goes do do dooo doo.... I forget the name of it

[finite wigeon]

(when I popped off then your girl gave me just a little bit of lockjaw)

[uneven field]

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=9emO9qo4FwE&si=V8WV3AEmif0AG7E4

I love making niche references

[dense moat]

Likes to play nails on chalkboard in public, no headphones.

Claims their free speech is being violated when people object

[uneven field]

oh, so Shawn Mendes?

[dense moat]

idk, I dont listen to that guy

[uneven field]

good

not a lot of people have a least favourite musician, most people are surprisingly positive in that they have a lot of definite favourites in various categories of things but not a lot of definite least favourites, so there's a tendency there to focus on the good

[fiery sleet]

Also just, people generally don't continue to consume media they hate

[uneven field]

I am someone who has a lot of least favourites, and in the category of musicians that's Shawn Mendes

[barren sun]

https://youtu.be/7PCkvCPvDXk?si=EZ0P616hJ0Y4OOIr

[versed junco]

You'd be surprised how far a touch of irony can go

[barren sun]

Dolores Umbridge's tune

[uneven field]

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=duUxC00xqFM&si=F5lqN67kLgy3jSic

listen to this and tell me I'm wrong

[tough silo]

https://youtu.be/OhW6t4rEJwU?si=3cHhGIQPDDvZrKiU

Do i even have to say who

https://youtu.be/uoZgZT4DGSY?si=wMLY9yj8Jg6a5Q0Y

[junior knot]

What's that ticking sound - potter puppet pals

[tough silo]

That bjork song also fits

Idk the name

[heavy sundial]

Mutant, Cerenovus, Harpy and Snake Charmer's favourite songs are all this https://youtu.be/0QCpR_2e4-A?si=KSKEqpvVGYilw3t4

[junior knot]

** [1/9]: i don't think we've done the obvious one, but correct me if im wrong: **
** What is a character's new years resolution?**

[finite wigeon]

-- To break their new year's resolution

[supple dirge]

Perfect 5/5 juggle

More cookies for her grandkids

[barren sun]

Live happily ever after

[vague pier]

Eat healthier

Retire, probably.

[coarse fern]

Help

Feeling creative today

[simple crystal]

Eat healthier

[warped urchin]

Hi its me I'm healthier

Wait I could've done that bettwr

The honourable judge walks in with a name tag that says healthier

[versed junco]

The Honourable Mr Heal Thierre

[fiery sleet]

new year new me

[uneven field]

to destroy everything

to treat others kindly

oh, sorry, I meant to treat others kindly

?

my mistake, I meant to treat others kindly

👀

[supple dirge]

raise taxes

[brave wasp]

make housing and food more affordable

manufacture consent

[junior knot]

** [1/10]: If Ravenswood Bluff was a company, what roles/titles would characters have? **
And maybe say a little about their responsibilities/ day to day

[fiery sleet]

is the unpaid intern

[uneven field]

CFO

he's there to cut costs and maximise profits, and boy does he love his job

are shareholders

is on payroll to do literally nothing except be the fall guy if and when

[junior knot]

PLEASE

[uneven field]

and are senior HR executives

doesn't work for Ravenswood Inc., but she is getting paid

handsomely

[junior knot]

is secretly an employee of Blavenswood Ruff and is commiting corporate espionage

is a hot young thang who got an internship specifically to try to find a sugar daddy among the higher ups

[uneven field]

you're missing the more obvious interpretation of being controlled opposition on social media

[junior knot]

is the union rep

[uneven field]

nono, that's

[junior knot]

nooo, tinker is the organizer

the one who tried to unionize in the first place

[uneven field]

ah, I see

[junior knot]

or they are the R&D guy who is responsible for osha starting in the first place

[uneven field]

who are the CEO and COO?

[junior knot]

?

[uneven field]

no

[junior knot]

?

[uneven field]

bureaucrat is in middle management

[junior knot]

is middle management who randomly sets arbitrary deadlines

and expects everyone to follow them

[uneven field]

mayor is also a politician on payroll

[junior knot]

not ?

[uneven field]

as above

both can be true

[junior knot]

runs the instagram

but wants to do so much more with their marketing degree

is a busybody who keeps accidentally oversharing with hr and getting people fired

[uneven field]

is in charge of diversity

it's very helpful that she can simply make people diverse

cacklejack, who does not have a server emoji, is also in this field

[junior knot]

randomly editing surveys so different demographic boxes are checked

is setting up a pension pyramid scheme

got in early and will likely take the fall

is the motivational speaker hired instead of giving workers raises

[uneven field]

is in marketing

[junior knot]

is the bosses son who floats in every couple months, revises a bunch of departments on a whim then leaves again

is there any question is custodial staff

[uneven field]

engineer not engineer?

[junior knot]

+

or +

handle the science/tech

[uneven field]

[junior knot]

puts out studies from a local university that just so happen to prove RB's products are vastly superior to the competition

they aren't officially affiliated with the company

goes out and sabotages other workplaces

tries to get the smell out of the breakroom

microwaved a fish + something dish and now everyone thinks the room is haunted

[uneven field]

is employed as the "Chief of Lettuce"

[junior knot]

is the copywriter

for everyone

[uneven field]

nobody knows what this fucking means and he gets paid more than 99% of payroll

we don't know who hired him, we think it was the COO like back in the really early days of the company but we aren't certain, nobody in the c-suite will speak on this

[junior knot]

Pierce Hawthorne/Howard Lyman core

[uneven field]

he isn't getting let go anytime soon either

[junior knot]

is the chief secretary/paralegal type who runs the bullpen with an iron fist

is the sweet old lady who wheels around a cart of snacks to boost morale

[uneven field]

every time someone tries to bring it up, c-suite steps in and tells whoever suggested it to shut the fuck up

[junior knot]

the ultimate personality hire

[uneven field]

has her eyes on her, thinks she's redundant

[junior knot]

(he has photos from a party in '03 no one wants circulated)

[junior knot]

no, again shes a relatively cheap tool to avoid paying raises

[uneven field]

yeah but we already have

[junior knot]

its the same reason there's even a microwave in the breakroom

[junior knot]

its bc of

[uneven field]

is HR

you have complaint, he deals with complaint

don't complain

[dense moat]

Former unpaid intern, but was fired by

[uneven field]

works in hiring

their favourite part of the job is not reading resumes at all and sending back emails that you aren't the right fit

(it's an open call because the company wants to project that they're hiring but there aren't actually any open positions at the moment)

[fallow rapids]

unrelated gal down the street who runs a vegan café and knows which food labels actually don't mean anything

works for the company and uses her girlfriend's rants for profit purposes

completely unrelated

[uneven field]

((they do this to get away with violating hiring laws))

[uneven field]

speaking of which, is legal

[fallow rapids]

concur

[uneven field]

is an office worker

he's helping

I love the mental image of a big dumb rock guy in a dress shirt and tie looking down at a photocopier he doesn't know how to use and scratching his head before calmly smashing it to bits, genuinely expecting that to make it start working

he's helping

[junior knot]

but but but

paper beats rock cass

[uneven field]

paper did beat rock

rock doesn't know how to use the paper

[modern plume]

Actuary and Risk Assessment Manager
Given the lack of safety in the company, half their Day to Day is figuring out if their therapist is available tonight.

[finite wigeon]

-- Anticapitalist. Very subtley, and kinda poorly, trying to get everyone to unionize and overthrow the office.

[modern plume]

The IT department. Generally telling people to just turn off and on their computers again except for the one employee consistently having actual implausible issues.

- Role: (Insert complex series of different job titles that they keep being switched from due to 'errors', all with names clearly overloaded in corporate jargon)
They're very thankful that their parent (one of the higher ups here) got them a job here!

[barren sun]

investor that got involved in several alleged scandals (fake news in social media) dropping the company's reputation

[junior knot]

Is that employee or ?

[fiery sleet]

is the head of some smaller internal department, but acts like the CEO

is security

head of money laundering

[pseudo fulcrum]

11/1: When you think your group is ready to move on from TB, do you usually do BMR or SnV first? Why?

[fallow rapids]

pros and cons:

BMR

• simpler abilities compared to SNV
• good TB groups should be executing constantly anyway
• relatively understandable feedback loop
• some easy TB comparisons you can address after the first game
  - worldbuilding in bmr without a fully digested script is very tedious
  - double tapping is a very unintuitive mechanic
  - if you‘re a new Storyteller, BMR can reek due to Sailor and Pacifist

SNV

• many strong TB groups love the world building aspects of SNV
• good TB groups should be executing constantly anyway
• strange and loud minion effects encourage players to take a look at the evil team
• very flexible first bag making when in a newbie context allows for first bags that cater to your group
  / more chaotic game state pairs well with chaotic groups, and very poorly with more mild groups
  - more complicated abilities compared to BMR
  - SNV script misinfo can be overwhelming for some players
  - optimising the effectiveness of homework can be confusing for some players, and along with Witch it might not go well
  - SNV madness is unintuitive and earnestly not fun for a lot of people (opinion: Cerenovus and Mutant are definitely worse than Pixie and Harpy)
  - if you‘re a new Storyteller, SNV can reek due to bad Savant, Twin choices, and less grasp on what to do with misinformation

secret third option (transition scripts)

TB–BMR transition scripts:
- bad
- mostly because execution surivival and deathmod doesn’t work very well on TB at all
- TB is based around small confirmation chains and those aren’t a good idea in BMR
- yeah i have nothing else to say about it they‘re usually always really bad at their job, yet alone at being a script
- BMR has very easily explainable abilities and a good feedback loop, so there‘s not really a need for them

TB–SNV transition scripts:

• SNV does need a bit of help at script digestion so it‘s not like there‘s no use for them
  / less bad than TBMR 🏳️‍⚧️ scripts, but still can reek
  - as long as the script doesn’t have SNV minions (TB likes quiet minions), and the script has a solo SNV demon (more than one demon can be rough for TB groups)
  / this is me shilling So Let’s Get Down to Why, but there is a genuine good backlog of TBSNV 🏳️‍⚧️ scripts

[barren sun]

I went to BMR purely because of the following reasons:

• I think of TB as the 1st script, BMR as 2nd and SnV as 3rd
• BMR characters seemed more intuitive for newbish players
• I like BMR more
• I uploaded a poll and BMR won by 1 vote

[fallow rapids]

-# yeah that‘s a more reasonable explanation on what to do

[warped urchin]

Yeah I went to bmr second because its the second script and I just went in order

[barren sun]

Is it officially the 2nd script though?

[fallow rapids]

i don't think so

[low umbra]

It’s technically ordered that way in the almanacs but that’s not particularly indicative of much

[low umbra]

I went SNV first because my group has played social deduction before and I was confident in my capabilities as a storyteller to handle the balance of the game

One thing I did to assist the transition is giving newer players small tips/suggestions on how they can use their ability, especially for the minions

Cause Cere and Pit Hag can feel really wonky if you’re the pit hag that just turned a barber into a Savant with your ability and then immediately die

[foggy grotto]

BMR because it’s better 😎

[flat lintel]

bmr is just the goat

[hollow oasis]

I will immediately start them on BMR

trial by fire /j

[uneven field]

I can think of a hell of a lot more negatives but I'm tired from two straight days of travel and conferencing and I'm also a little bit drunk so I won't start listing

you've appeased me with the cerenovus < harpy

I think BMR's evil suite, if not BMR as a whole, encourages people to take a good look at everything on the script too, to a much larger extent than S&V

the worldbuilding point also fits BMR better

basically every positive point you mentioned for S&V is more true of BMR

[sinful onyx]

Nah, I’d run my customs

[coarse fern]

We did SNV first since we noticed in our TB games folks were generally better at parsing information and how it could be incorrect than stuff like starpassing, monk/soldier saves, and spy misreg. We haven’t gotten to BMR yet but SNV has been quite an experience (multiple d1 vortox wins)

[karmic rose]

I do BMR second because by the time the other scripts are introduced, experienced players are present and they are usually better at walking new players through BMR

[grizzled marsh]

SnV first on my group

[grizzled marsh]

The wiki has this order since like two weeks but it was SnV then BMR before so it doesn't mean anything

[barren sun]

[12/1] Is the Mastermind official token icon the front or the back of a desk chair?

-# Inspired by: "A lady or a man? A duck or a bunny? A cup or 2 faces?"

[fiery sleet]

Very clearly front to me: there is no way there could be an unbroken highlight along the rim of the seat if it was facing away.

[low umbra]

Yeah I agree with front tbh

[grizzled marsh]

Before checking the icon more closely: the back
It's clearly the front 😭

[fiery sleet]

Anyway, I think it's moreso meant to be one of those war meeting pawns that you push around a map, instead of a chair

[sinful onyx]

Definitely front

based on the fact that a lot characters obviously show their front

SW, spy, ET, wraith, no dashii, LoT, etc…

[grizzled marsh]

What is the spy's token representing?
The correct answer is a crystal ball

[fiery sleet]

I thought it was like a pair of lips with a ribbon for a long time

the light part is the lips

[finite wigeon]

It's a chair villainously turning towards you while it villainously turns away from you

[brave wasp]

I just played snv today with a group that had pretty much only played tb, it had been long enough that they got the concept of TB, but I probably didn't wait long enough just because of how much abilities had to be explained

[low umbra]

Idk it looks like a crystal shoe?

(this is a completely unedited btw, this is what came up)

[low umbra]

Explaining abilities is an expected thing when a group is exposed to new concepts and characters. So if that was pretty much the only critique you have of the game, that’s pretty good imo

[uneven field]

yeah the preview image google takes is usually from the jinx list

[low umbra]

That’s odd, given that the damsel/spy jinx is attached to the spy, so I would have figured the spy would be shown first

Tbh I thought it was a spy misreg moment and it’s more fun to think about it that way (similar to magician and spy’s text colour)

[next vault]

The Spy registered as the Damsel to the Undertaker

[uneven field]

it doesn't matter which it's attached to, the wiki always shows a list of every jinxed character and it has the icon of the character that the page isn't of next to each jinx

and for whatever reason, the jinx list is considered above everything else by the search engine, so the first image is the first icon on the jinx list, rather than the proper character token

[dusty thistle]

It's the front.

[barren sun]

https://tenor.com/view/penguins-of-madagascar-skipper-science-is-wrong-and-youre-wrong-everybodys-wrong-but-me-gif-25471188

-# Am I really that crazy?

[dusty thistle]

I admit I can see it being the back if I look at the top, but only after it's been pointed out to me

[modern plume]

The front.

The light source is coming from the upper left, indicated by the base of the chair having light on the left rather than the right. This means the upper right portion of the chair is in position for the light to reflect off it; if we were observing the back of the chair then it would be convex facing outward which doesn't make sense as to how the light touches it, so it must be concave. The reason the chair isn't illuminated in the center is that the curve of the chair blocks some of the light.

[karmic rose]

Jan 13: How do you name your scripts?

[fast anchor]

https://babaiswiki.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Random

[simple crystal]

Either a name magically pops into my head that fits the script premise (Tipsy Gizmos, Faustian Bargain) or I steal a name from Cultist Simulator

[modern plume]

Video game songs.

Minuit a Fond la Caisse - OFF
Dullahan under the Willows - Touhou
The Second Sanctuary - Deltarune
Golden Border of Prester John - Touhou

[fiery sleet]

Riffing on normal phrases (No Rest for the Wicked, Shots in the Dark, Cruisin' for a Boozin')

[warm gate]

I usually name them based on the character/characters I'm designing around in some way, and go from there

sometimes that comes out as just directly taking the character name (Poppy Grower -> Where the Poppies Grow, Fearmonger -> Fear the Dark)
sometimes it takes inspiration from the character's name or mechanics (Princess -> By Royal Decree, Riot -> Vive la Révolution)
and very occasionally it's just kinda based on script vibes (Inferno is named as such because it's death-mod + 4 game-warping Minions and I have a script called Something Wicked This Way Comes which is just kinda cool)

[coarse fern]

Depends on the script but my favorite method is taking an idiom that represents a theme of the script. For example, a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” is someone who appears innocent but is really evil and evils sneaking into confirmation chains is a big theme of WiSC

I love that name because it highlights both the lycanthrope feature and the confirmation chains

Sometimes I’ll just do whatever sounds cool though

[hollow oasis]

Dawg my names are like

“It’s voting time” -self explanatory

“Boomtown” -lots of outsiders are coming in

“Conmen’s game” -alhad gives me sleazy three card monte vibes

“Kill me” - the heretic is trying to kill themselves in the twin pair

“The Abominable Lavaman” It’s an abomination and the opposite(heretic) of a water demon(Leviathan) is a lava demon

[junior knot]

this is where your link took me axo

off to go make a pizza script ig?

[dusty thistle]

It really depends. 5 Becomes 4 Becomes 3 riffed on Cult of the Lamb, mainly because I liked the symmetry between counting down the days and (spoilers for Cult of the Lamb) ||you murdering the gods||. But normally it's from some sort of name that pops into my head that I think works. Bombs and Bow Ties was just a cool-sounding name, and when I eventually renamed it to Spin Doctoring, it was to reflect the theme of "spinning" a complex web of lies, bending the truth to your benefit.

It also depends on what media I'm consuming. I'm currently working on a script where I have the theme for the title in mind, but I'm not quite done hashing out the details.

[modern plume]

As mentioned with the video game song names, but each script is chosen to fit the theme the script is designed around with some decisions on scripts made to match the name.

Minuit a Fond la Caisse is french, literally "Midnight Pedal to the Metal" if I recall but the intent from the game is more like "Midnight Fast Approaches", which makes sense for the 'warning' that the game gives due to the Mastermind Engine's threat on deathless nights. The name is also the battle theme for a bird monster in the game OFF, which is why many of the characters are bird themed.

Dullahan under the Willows is the boss theme for a dullahan whose head flies around the screen firing projectiles at you. Because the two main demons are Lleech & LM, the demon is effectively a 'Dullahan' with their head moving about disjoint from their body.

Golden Border of Prester John is a theme based on the mythical 'Prester John', a fictional Christian king supposedly ruling an asian country. The script is built around characters not operating how they should with Gossip + Yagga (Monk trying to get targets killed, Soldier expected to die, Grandmother wanting grandchild to die), everything being centered around mere words, along with the Christian nobility theme contrasted with the more bizarre dream-like/nightmarish characters like Dreamer & Cannibal.

The Second Sanctuary is built around pairs, the Revo pair, the pair of Fabled, the pair of Demons, and pairs of characters that go together like King & Choirboy and Huntsman & Damsel.

[dusty thistle]

Current draft of the name is something like "The storm, the failsafe, and the queen". It needs more work.

Actually, now I have a much better idea for a name. I'll be back with a fully built script sooner or later.

Dang it, the theme means I need to fit clockmaker on an al-had script now... What have I gotten myself into...

[dense moat]

Varies, but a lt of them are named after stuff that vaugely fits

Wondaria Dream Parade: Named after the Kirby theme. Its an amusment park level. Because the script was build around the Roi Faineant, a hmebrew characte that creates a good Demon who thinks they are evil, I figured it fit with the theme of whimsy. It also has BakedIce's Ariel, which also shares the theme of whimisical freedom

Walpurgisnacht: Was built around the Purtian from Brewulations and Boilers, which is themed around witch hunting. Because I used uritan with Fearmonger, I wanted to go for a witch trial theme. So I referenced Walpurgisnacth (mainly because of Madoka Magica)

I mostly make homebrew scripts tho, so I dont have any officals one

I did toy with an idea called Upgrades which used the Plague Dotor hjinxes which gave abilities to Miinions, but thats old

[vernal tiger]

movies that i like or sentences that i find funny

media i like generally

• Guy Who Thinks Tomb Rhymes With Bomb
• Mandatory Service Hours in the Lose Simulator 3000
• Three Reminder Tokens Outside Ebbing, Missouri

[severe raven]

I take inspiration from Spirit Island stuff names these days

I actually have a script called Many Minds Move as One

[next marlin]

Three Reminder Tokens Outside Ebbing, Missouribased

[fallow rapids]

• Step 1, write a script

• Step 2, write a name about the script

• Step 1, write a name

• Step 2, write a script about the name

[uneven field]

I'm a big fan of the latter

[barren sun]

I take the main character / idea of the script and reference it.

• Atheist -> God's Birthday
• Mastermind -> Well, well, well,...

[tough silo]

Based on songs

[low umbra]

I almost always have the script before the name

• Vigormortis and Friends (my attempt to make Vigor a fun demon outside of an SnV-like)
• Shambles Galore (a script that I was expecting to be kinda bad, turned out to be alright but it still has hermit/damsel so name still works)
• The Dead Shall Speak (multiple reasons for evils to die at night)
• World’s Longest Day (one day script but games run for like 40+ mins cause multiple day phases with no night)

[uneven field]

silly

they come to me in a vision

comes down from the heavens and says to me "YOU WILL MAKE A SCRIPT CALLED TENTACLE YURI" and so it comes to pass

[fallow rapids]

let me guess, no dashii / lleech

[uneven field]

it's got pukka too

how do you not know tentacle yuri that's crazy

[next vault]

I name my script based on what I'm creating around

stuff like

MM Engine

[heavy sundial]

I name most of my scripts as references to either songs or game levels

• Big Boom - GD level
• Corralojo - literally just a place but with a pun on ojo
• Big Steel Guy's Revenge - reference to one of mine and my friends' minecraft servers
• Have A Drink - GD level
• Pipeline Boom Lagoon - SM3DW level
• End Of The New Moon - song lyric
• Sleepy Window Array - song lyric

[lean isle]

Some random idea that I like based on characters on script

[karmic rose]

I don't

[lean isle]

Like I name Eruption Time from Al-Had and Shattered Moon because BMR-like

[lost thistle]

https://babaiswiki.fandom.com/wiki/Planet_Baba

new script name just dropped

[pseudo fulcrum]

Usually a pun or a saying based on the theme of the script

[supple dirge]

[1/14] What was the first custom script you played and what do you think of it now?

[coarse fern]

I do not remember that shit

[hollow oasis]

TB+Lil monsta

I hate both

[warm gate]

i know that the first custom I played on-server was China Shop which is like...
yeah good script 🙂‍↕️
admittedly that game was a bit unfortunate for the evil team because the Demon basically never got a kill but yeah

the first custom I played ever though I have no idea

[low umbra]

I played a bunch of teensies before playing a full-sized custom script (and I can’t remember which teensy I played first)

My first ever custom I played was probably my own script The Dead Shall Speak and it was a really fun at the time. My opinion of it has definitely lowered as I have become more experienced with building custom scripts, but I think it’s at a local maximum in terms of what I wanted from it

It’ll always have a special place in my heart though, my first ever custom, in several ways

[dusty thistle]

I believe it was Night School by Enix, a script I now regard as a good example of why poisoner does not go on customs lightly.

[tough silo]

My first custom script was extension cord

[dusty thistle]

Oh wait no, it was some random script by steamseed!

I can't remember the name, but I do remember drawing the damsel token

Man, that was a good game. Not a balanced script, but a good game.

[tough silo]

What a experience

[shrewd cloud]

Basically a random collection of characters the Storyteller (who also was insanely new) liked. And it was my first game ever 🔥

Mfw the two Demons are Zombuul and Po with no other death mod whatsoever

It wasn’t a well-designed script by any stretch of the imagination, but it was still a fun time. The asynchronous group I got my start with had two “first” games going at the same time. The one I was in ended in an evil victory after I, the Drunk Washerwoman, “confirmed” the Baron since I had no strategy whatsoever. The other one ended on D2 after the Artist basically sniped the Po, which was supported by the Dreamer also sniping the Po. And the Slayer was like “lol ok let’s do it.” Absolutely destroyed

[dusty thistle]

It also had a funny wizard wish that went unpunished, though it really should've been balanced in some way. "Each night, I get to choose to gain one of two off-script townsfolk abilities untill dusk tomorrow."

[simple crystal]

Probably Catfishing? I don't remember what happened (that might be the game where I jumped to a very confused lunatic) but still a pretty fun script even though I've only played it a couple of times

[hollow oasis]

ngl I think the cost would be

once again

"a good player learns which"

easiest cost ever

balanced :)

[dusty thistle]

The clue was a bunch of really cryptic pieces messages like "someone learned something about you". We weren't even close

Clue probably should've been more direct

But that was a hilariously good game.

Here's the script.

This was a one-off joke script, don't be too harsh on it.

[hollow oasis]

tracks

[fallow rapids]

my scripts (the ones i acknowledge anyway with some amount of playtesting)

former:
Unpaid Internship (apprentice script)
You and Your Olive Branches (first pacifist script)
Cruel and Unusual (all of my botc knowledge on what not to do on a script condensed into a script where every role is miserable to play)

latter:
So Let's Get Down to Why (song lyric, ended up being a base only Vortox TB)

the win condition in Cruel and Unusual is to have fun

(very hard)

i probably should work on the Travellers for CaU

obviously Apprentice is going to be one because apprentice is the original role but bad and the roles are already terrible

i may throw Bishop on there because Bishop is terrible with the main cast

[inner gazelle]

Pearly Gates: ‘‘twas confused about how Damsel cover works, but it was fun

[lean isle]

TB+Fun. Well, "+Fun" is debatable (like there is Cere-Saint).

Idr much of the game beside getting away with 3 different doubleclaims.

[dense moat]

This was one of my first, dating back to August 2023

My archives do have a few games before this, but they are unreliable, so im not counting those scripts

[dense moat]

Poisoner Drunk No Dashiii is... a choice indeed

[next marlin]

trouble coping with the concept people would make this

[hollow oasis]

Besides the poisoner and drunk

And the complete lack of O-mod

This kind of cooks

[dense moat]

what in particular cooks about it?

out of curisoity?

[hollow oasis]

Nodashii Vortox only with this TF suite is kind of cool imo

FT/NWM Are a Little dubious

[sinful onyx]

How good/bad is TB + alhad - imp if i replace monk, soldier and mayor

[supple dirge]

My third game was this script. I was the imp and died early and was convinced I was the lunatic, only realizing the scarlet woman caught it later. Pit-hag turned the second imp into the zombuul and then I got real confused when all my minions were dead. Good ended up winning.

Zombuul is jank with any character changing, and pacifist tea lady with no da is wack

[karmic rose]

Jan 14th: Which roles do you see as significantly more/less powerful than the community consensus?

[junior knot]

i think ft is lowkey overrated

oh also soldier is like super underrated ngl

[sinful onyx]

I think balloonist is overrated in scriptbuilding and underpowered in a decent amount of ST's hands

[junior knot]

if only we knew what 'safe' actually meant smh (in a sad way)

[sinful onyx]

means they don't lose if vortox wincon

[junior knot]

you don't like outsider loonist?

[junior knot]

everyone else does, but they keep playing

its really awkward

and also kinda confirms soldier, but hey

what can ya do

omg new meta

just get into a fistfight with every player in a tb game

whoever can't hit back is the demon

and you are confirmed soldier/monk protected

[sinful onyx]

Also WW/lib/grandma is not underrated until they get compared to steward/nwm and somehow is evaluated as similar power lvl

imo ww is like steward + nwm

[junior knot]

oh wait, we're not in #botc-memes; i must have taken a wrong turn somewhere

[junior knot]

i will say kinda script dependent

[sinful onyx]

also seamstress picking confirmed good/evil is like super overrated

the average bit of entropy is so much worse than picking 2 unconfirmed and ppl belike it's bad op interaction

[junior knot]

yeah seamstress should be a world closer, not an info gatherer

a couple roles on snv people unoptimize like that

lowkey its kinda opposite types in that way

[dense moat]

Do we have 2 questions for 1/14?

[dense moat]

Other

[sinful onyx]

oh also i think one of the questions is overrated and the other one is underrated

[hollow oasis]

I find golem to be an outsider

I find poisoner to be wildly too strong

I find wraith if I have it to be incredibly strong

Stronger than the grim peekers

[junior knot]

people seem to underrate participation restrictions as a whole

wraith as a coordinator - s
wraith as an infogatherer - d

[sinful onyx]

asking others to nom for you as a confirmed good is too strong

[junior knot]

although kinda feels like a social faux pas a bit