secret thing

[dusty thistle]

Made literally just now

[dry sluice]

And what would you do differently now (10 seconds later)

[karmic rose]

Greek Chorus (Fabled): Each night, the ST may choose three players for spectators to vote on. The player with the most votes learns that the chorus has warned them.

First thing I ever posted, I think? I'd make it a Loric, now.

also I imagine the wording could use some cleanup

[dusty thistle]

Probably make it learn 3 numbers and the number of steps to the demon?

IDK, it's really powerful

Or better yet, make it a YSK instead of choosing a player. It's from you

[dry sluice]

Does the chorus warning have a mechanical effect? Is the idea that spectators are helping a team by communicating 1 of 3 players? Is it a social cue?

[dusty thistle]

Colonel (Townsfolk): YSK two numbers, one of which is the number of steps to the nearest evil.

[karmic rose]

neat

[dusty thistle]

Actually no, my first homebrew was in the reddit makes a character challenge.

Journalist (Townsfolk): YSK two good characters, one of which is a demon bluff.

Yeah, making Colonel reminded me I've made a very similar character.

[grizzled marsh]

I forgot when i tried to make for fun a werewolf-themed homebrew script with BOTC versions of these character
I don't exactly know which one was the first one made & it was probably multiple within a very short time, but "you secretely have double vote power" was one that was made very early & started a subtheme of secret extra vote power

[dusty thistle]

I'm actually pretty happy with it, a relatively balanced townsfolk. I think. I'll pose it to the homebrew people.

Does it look powerful?

[dusty thistle]

Was this a townsfolk, minion, or demon?

[grizzled marsh]

Townsfolk sorry

And every extra time i start to mention werewolf here, the more i discover that it's only really known in my country

[dusty thistle]

I know werewolf

[grizzled marsh]

What does it look like?

[hollow oasis]

I know ONUW but not werewolf

[dusty thistle]

I also know ONUW

[grizzled marsh]

Yeah apparently ONUW is international but "MNW" isn't really

("Multi night werewolf")

[dusty thistle]

Hmm, well I at least know of MNW

I thought you meant ONUW

From what I've gathered it's similar to Mafia.

[grizzled marsh]

From what i've gathered by looking at how people comment Mafia here, it's similar to my game

[dusty thistle]

So one protection role, one info gatherer, and an evil team that you have to kill everyone to win?

[grizzled marsh]

Never heard of Mafia before this server

[zenith lotus]

i've heard of both, they are exactly the same game except everything is renamed

[dusty thistle]

snort

I mean, to be fair, Mafia/Werewolf is pretty much social deduction at its most basic form.

Everything else is a derivative.

[grizzled marsh]

Well for fun i can name some of these roles with the ability translated to BOTC terms, then the version i came up with to laugh about it

[grizzled marsh]

Sisters (good) "each night, wake with the other sister [+1 sister]" & Brothers (good) "each night, wake with the other brothers [+2 brothers]" -> Sisters (townsfolk) "[+1 to +2 sisters]"

Little girl (good) "You can open your eyes when the evil team wakes" -> Little girl (townsfolk) "Each night*, learn two players of different alignment. The evil player learns who you are"

Bear shower (good, don't question the quality of my translations) "each dawn, the storytellers publicly say if you are next to an evil player" -> Bear shower (townsfolk) "You secretely have one extra vote power for each of your living evil neighbors"

Angel (solo) "If you are executed on the first day, you win alone" -> Angel (outsider) "You start evil. After night X+1 (X being the number of minions), you become good, even if dead. You are sober and healthy" (btw this character could be way more interesting without the "even if dead" clause)

Dog-wolf (?) "You start the game choosing if you are good or evil" -> Dog-wolf (minion) "Once per game, at night*, choose a player: they die."

Raven (good) "Each night, choose a player (everyone learns who): they automaticaly have 2 votes against them tomorrow." -> Raven (minion) "Each night, choose a player: tomorrow, evil players secretely have an extra vote power against them."

Werewolf (evil) you know what it is -> Werewolf (demon) "Each night, choose a player: they die. Once per game, choose a player: they die. [Every minions are dog-wolf]"

It's slightly off-topic, but this was some of my fav characters from the first homebrew "script" i did

[karmic rose]

i've written two homebrew characters and both are lorics, huh

[wise cargo]

You were specifically prohibited from answering the question

[feral snow]

I didn't answer the question

I simply provided commentary

[wise cargo]

touche

[hollow oasis]

Anyway

Btw

Now going to see who won

Actually

[wise cargo]

@hollow oasis it's a better number now

[hollow oasis]

I’m not counting today for either of you

besides

[karmic rose]

hi quintsquall

[finite wigeon]

Rat King (demon) - Any execution an evil player votes on will pass. Each night* choose two players: their characters swap. If you instead choose one player twice, poison them.

Most of my early ideas are ones that I've already taken and redone (I think Ghost is the one that really comes to mind. It was something like "You're dead but register as alive." and I eventually made it into an effect that did that to other ppl [my Shade character])

But this one is one that stands out as one that feels particularly prickly and just, never really touched it much after a certain point

[finite wigeon]

The basic premise is a Demon that kills via controlling the executions instead of killing at night. If I had to fix the execution on this idea, I'd maybe do something like...

Each night, choose a player: if they're nominated, they or their nominator are instantly executed.

[thorny summit]

Witness (Outsider): On your first night, all outsiders wake together. Once per game, if an evil player guesses which players are outsiders, evil wins, even if you are dead. [+1 Outsider]

[hollow oasis]

Probably should have a damsel clause

[feral snow]

Denji (Demon): Each night*, choose up to 2 players: they die. You can't choose 2 players twice in a row.

I made some truly truly awful homebrews but that was my very first and it's not terrible

I'd make the number of kills dependent on something else instead

[thorny summit]

One of my main problems with it was that it's pretty wordy, so I'd probably try to fix that if I refined it

[sour harness]

Viroid (Demon): Each night*, choose a player: they die. If they were dead, drunk, or poisoned, their Townsfolk neighbors are poisoned until after your next choice.

(the wording here is slightly better bc I'm doing this from memory but mechanically it's the same)

It evolved into this

[severe raven]

I think my first homebrew was a mathematics-themed teensy where I made the script in LaTeX

[hollow oasis]

My first Homebrew script was a script that required fucking wolfram alpha

[severe raven]

how

[hollow oasis]

“Each night choose 2 players, the 1st’s info is raised to the power of the 2nd’s and given to both instead”

[severe raven]

I'm assuming all characters learn numeric info?

[hollow oasis]

You can get a 19

It got into the e’s

[uneven field]

I have a couple that I made roughly around the same time and I don't remember which is strictly first, so here's a handful of them

Canvasser (Townsfolk): Each day but your first, you may visit the Storyteller to learn two true statements for every sequential day you haven't visited the Storyteller.

Baku (Demon): Each night*, choose a player; they die. For each time you voted today, you may poison a player at the beginning of the night.

Sycophant (Outsider): You start knowing an opposing player; if you are mad that they are evil or that you are the Sycophant, you change alignment & lose, even if dead.

Manipulator (Minion): The player you nominate is poisoned until you nominate again.

Trapper (Townsfolk): If you nominate and successfully execute an evil player, they may not use a dead vote token, and learn this tonight.

[hollow oasis]

Well lucky you with good starting homebrew

[uneven field]

I only started making homebrew after playing for ages

[hollow oasis]

You actually practiced the advice most homebrewers give?

Where can I learn these powers

[uneven field]

I don't really play homebrew scripts, so I wasn't in too much of a rush to make my own

I'm still tinkering with the script

I'm trying to build a script where a lot of abilities act during the nomination phase, so good players have to be suspicious of people who vote and nominate in certain ways

I also peaked at baku I think, my other demons aren't amazing

[warm gate]

Jester (Demon) - All players know that a Jester is in-play. You poison your nearest Townsfolk neighbor. If both of your Townsfolk neighbors are equidistant to you, the poisoned person is arbitrary. For every ability that malfunctioned tonight*, a player might die.

ignoring the god awful wording, this has since evolved into the much simpler:
Jester (Demon) - For each time (since dusk) that a player's ability has malfunctioned a player might die. If none did, a player dies. One of your Townsfolk neighbors is poisoned.

I do still need to clean up the wording somewhat and weaken or change the kill power, but I do like the idea of a misinfo demon that gets kill power from misinfo

[pseudo fulcrum]

No minions, turn players evil

I think the second one I made was Knight

[olive marsh]

groundbreaking concept

that seems so obvious, why hasn’t tpi done something like that already

[primal crescent]

Oh nor

[cold veldt]

||proof that Piglix really IS Steven Medway||

[primal crescent]

Icl tho idk what I’d do differently

Well I’d probably make the penalty a bit different

[karmic rose]

isn't the "penalty" just a benefit here?

[primal crescent]

Exactly lmao

This was when I was still ToS-pilled and not but a fledgling homebrewer

[tough silo]

Scrambler: each night*: learn 2 players, who the storyteller thinks 1 is wrong, and the other is right.

This is a Savant high priestess

[uneven field]

each night* learn two players that have socially espoused opposite things

crazy

[tough silo]

Did i cook?

[barren sun]

President: All players know you are in-play.
The ability being that evil can't bluff President. Unfortunately, it has the problem that , precisely, evil can't bluff to be the President

[barren sun]

Bear tamer would be best
This is from a originally french now somewhat europe-wide game of social deduction commonly known as "Werewolf" or" "The village sleeps" depending on language and translation. The main differences to BOTC: All evils are wws that sort of work like Legion / Riot; there's a "Villager" (good) character with no ability at all, and it's usually a duplicate (5-8 people that don't do anything); evil doesn't get bluffs & everyone knows exactly which characters are in-play; droisoning isn't a thing; the ST announces who's waking up; dead players may not speak nor vote; evils kill N1; some powers are just not balanced in any way ; and finally, no one can agree on how to democracy.
Then there's mafia, which is all the same bit instead of a particular game you draw cards from a standard deck.

[dense moat]

The Accuser (Minion): Each night, choose a player & a character. They are mad this character neighbors then tomorrow or might be executed

I honestly dont know what I'd do to fix this. Maybe evil character, but like, its hard to say

[barren sun]

Humble opinion, the counterclockwise way would match the icon better

[olive marsh]

its tendrils are reaching around and poisoning its clockwise neighbor

[grizzled marsh]

and finally, no one can agree on how to democracy.
Based

[finite wigeon]

So you've always been Tombpilled 💀

[primal crescent]

Well yes but no bc that’s the first one that I’ve posted here

[karmic slate]

Luis really said “yeah I know semi-hard confirmation is a difficult and sometimes bad approach to character design but have considered it’s cool”

[uneven field]

to be fair, bluffable until not

[feral snow]

Both of these have fail states even if sober and healthy

The confirmation is a reward

[barren sun]

I would actually like a character that could prove themselves just by claiming to be that character and somehow not break the logics of the game

Like :
"The Demon may not claim to be the President" nope cause everyone can say whatever they want
"Everyone knows you are the President" nope cause it's unbluffable (also better NWM)
"Everyone knows there is a President in play" nope cause if anyone double claims, just kill them both
Etc

[brittle bridge]

Wouldn’t this just be mutant

[barren sun]

I mean like a useful TF

"If the Demon is the only player mad as the President, they are drunk"

Is the furthest I've ever adjusted it

[fleet hedge]

people just take turns claiming President day by day to be hard confirmed not Demon

[barren sun]

Demon can sink / President could be droisoned

[karmic rose]

the demon having to sink to avoid hard confirmation of a single player N times isn't super sustainable

[modern plume]

I mean, Boffin now exists so Evil can bluff this that way. Also plays interestingly with Bounty Hunter or Mez, so anything where Good players can turn Evil makes this a reasonable role.

If you wanted to balance its unbluffable nature for Evil, you could give President a downside like Xaan, where outsider count is arbitrary, which makes outsider count useless for deduction while also widely opening up bluffing space for Evils. Or have it also give the Snitch ability.

[fleet hedge]

"All players know who you are." is not a very powerful ability

it is not a better NWM

it is basically just "You die on night 2"

like yeah you save other players from death for one night but that's not great

[feral snow]

???????

[fleet hedge]

realistically you die on night 2 and don't have an incredibly large effect on the game: you only really buy time for trusted players or info gatherers to live

[feral snow]

great you’ve eliminated a huge number of worlds

it’s powerful

and also more importantly not fun

[fleet hedge]

not really?

it's not too uncommon that a player becomes universally trusted anyway and it doesn't tend to break the game

a self nominating Golem is not very powerful

even tho it hard confirms them

a successful Virgin proc on a player without info in a game without a Monk claim isn't very strong

(assuming said player isn't a major demon candidate)

[olive marsh]

getting to cut through all the lies immediately on day 1 is strong

[fleet hedge]

and even if they are, it's not all that powerful

having a hard confirmed player to lead town can be somewhat useful, but there's usually enough of a hyper-trusted subset of players by 1 or 2 days in anyway

plus a single player can be wrong with their reads

[fleet hedge]

e.g. the night 2 kill of a player who wasn't under heavy heat yesterday can be assumed good in TB

[fleet hedge]

this isn't strong enough for Town to be worth evil intentionally killing one of their own on N2 in most instances

(for control over the game reasons, soldifying bluffed info is a different story)

basically confirmed good players without info are generally overrated

there's a reason it's always the Investigator and Chef who are fed to the Virgin

[barren sun]

Yes, Boffin or team switchers can make players more wary of an alleged President, but I believe a good character, though it might have bad specific interactions, isn't script-dependent

I gave up on it months ago anyway

Never liked the result

[fleet hedge]

Boffin is shit with confirmation roles anyway

Boffin/Nightwatchman continues to be an esteemed member of the 1000x worse than Legion/Atheist club

[grizzled marsh]

"If you publicly claim to be the president, everyone learns that you are the president"?

[low umbra]

Virgin is bluffable asf, from experience. The proc isn’t, but the social environment around it def is

[uneven field]

this is true

you know what isn't bluffable?

you ever play a game and try to bluff amnesiac and you're immediately disregarded because it turns out that ST always makes the amnesiac ability some incomprehensible unbluffable bullshit that is so esoteric it literally doesn't even help the good team because it's indecipherable to a reasonable player?

[barren sun]

Wait I actually like this, the more you hold it the more rewarding it is
Problem is, again, evil just cant bluff it unless boffin on script etc

[barren sun]

I have yes
That's why whenever I gotta run Amne, I sincerely ask myself if it helps the good team and if the Amne can get it in the lapse of about 5 days

[grizzled marsh]

You aren't mad then?

[barren sun]

I think the worst Amne ability I've ever made was
EN: Make a guess. If you guess the Yaggabable phrase, your team wins.
(Edit: I invented the ability and the player never got anywhere near close to solving it)

[uneven field]

the game I'm angrily recalling for this anecdote was one where the real amnesiac ability was some bullshit like "you start by seeing a maze with a bunch of character tokens in it on various different spaces, each night draw a line through the maze and learn if the line you drew alternates going through characters that are and are not in play"

weirdly, the amnesiac didn't figure it out

[supple dirge]

Next time I'm just going to play mtg in the night with the amne

[uneven field]

I've had some pretty disgusting ideas for amnesiac abilities in my time but I don't do them because I have a measure of self control

[barren sun]

You know what

[11/11] What's the best Amne ability you've come up with?

[uneven field]

question should be worst

maybe tomorrow

[barren sun]

EN: Choose a good character: The Marionnete thinks they are that character.
-# Unfortunately it was a teensie and I forgot to tell the demon who was the Mario Whoops

[fleet hedge]

I was using claiming to mean mad

obviously the players will have to put a lot of effort into it

but you don't have to be successful to be mad, you just have to be genuinely trying

[modern plume]

I ran an Amnesiac in 'Midnight Oasis' with a passive set up ability.

"There are two Savants in play. One Savant receives only true info, the other receives only false info, even if you're dead"

It was an Atheist game, and the Amnesiac ability was the core to proving it, since the Savants got their info relative to the actual game state.

[uneven field]

esoteric amnesiac in an atheist game is something

[grizzled marsh]

If, at any point, you have the agreeement "each day, one new player will be mad to be the president", you can't really be mad as the president

[modern plume]

When one player figured it out, they revealed the Atheist world and showed every Savant statement worked with the ability if the Amnesiac ability was what it was.

[fleet hedge]

that's untrue, as madness is exclusively about a genuine effort
if circumstances make it impossible for town to believe what you're mad about that's out of your current control, and if you're making the best possible effort to convince them you can't be punsihed

the result of madness has no effect on whether madness was upheld

[grizzled marsh]

If i say "Tomorrow, please be mad about being X", you can't just say that you're X the next day and think you're gonna satisfy madness

Like here it's not "it's mechanically impossible for you to be X", but "yesterday, you agreed to be mad about X today"

Like if day 1 the pixie says "i'm the pixie who saw cannibal, i'll be mad from tomorrow onwards", absolutely no storyteller will give the pixie the cannibal's ability when the cannibal dies d4

Same for a philo saying they will pick pixie tonight

And with this version of president, it's not "procced virgin mad as washerwoman" but "philo saying they will pick pixie tonight"

[carmine dome]

Secret

[naive flame]

Musician

Alignement: Traveller

Information
Each night, pick a player;they'll get to nominate twice for the day.

• You can not pick yourself
• Your Target Will Lose their Double If you are Exiled.
• You can not pick the same twice in a row.

This was my berry first hb I made.. holy.. and I don't even know how to make those textures things... I just like added red and blue and called it a day...

I think the most liked/hated one would be my Herbalist one

Each night, choose a player. They are safe from evil abilities but might register as a Minion & Demon until dusk.

[naive flame]

Just gave amne a sober and healthy balloonist info, and they can't even be drunk...

[finite wigeon]

Had a game with a Pixie Amne, and I decided to give them the ability they were bluffing to have

[junior knot]

I have an amne ability I've been saving for when i run an amne/OG script, but I think is pretty fun.
Each night*, choose up to 5 players. Learn (if any/how many) of them voted on the previous successful execution.

It would depend on the infoscape how strong i would make it though

[feral snow]

Each night, you have the ability of the next Sects & Violets character (in script order)

got a bingo on day 6

[junior knot]

between those two options and the max number of selectale players

[barren sun]

I love this one

[feral snow]

it worked well but only because the game lasted forever

[tardy wyvern]

I find it weird that they didn't figure it out once they got dreamer info

[feral snow]

it was kind of a newer player

they also chose the Demon which was crazy

and then almost snake charmed the Demon on the next day but pivoted and chose the player who would end up being the other player alive in f3

[nimble rose]

I played a game with a boffin amne that was the same but for BMR

evil won because we killed the demon the day they had the fool ability and we did not solve that

[feral snow]

This was a Lleech atheist script

I was the Boffin (notably they also chose the ability each night, which was a problem when they unknowingly chose 13 and got the Fool ability)

[tepid shard]

I ran a (joke) amne ability the other day which was "the demon learns mutant mutant mutant as their bluffs [all other good players are the mutant]"

There was also a widow in play

It was absolute cinema, and I ran an actual game straight after

The other one that i ran which was kinda cool was "en learn a clue to your setup effect [all characters are in alphabetical order]"

That was only possible because we don't have an actual botc set, and therefore no bag that goes round

Normally i just randomly allocate characters and then tell people, but obviously for that one it was gardened

[karmic rose]

I once ran "Amnesiac is a demon bluff" but it was in a silly context

[dry sluice]

In terms of actually producing good gameplay, my best Amne so far is "Each night, choose 2 players: learn the player whose character is alphabetically earlier."

[sour harness]

Context: there's this one guy in our group, let's call him John (short for John Clocktower, obviously). Someone made a joke script with a bunch of silly abilities, but the one that stuck around the most was the John Destroyer: "Each night, choose a player: John dies." (Note the lack of asterisk)

So when John pulled the amne token in 6 player LuF, I had him choose a player night 1 and then he woke up dead

Is it good? That's questionable, but it was definitely iconic

[barren sun]

I just publicly giggled at the bust station at that ability

[brittle bridge]

A LuF ability that works really well is “Each night, choose a player, learn the number of letters/vowels in their character name”

[timid lotus]

Love the John Destroyer

[fleet hedge]

that's why I specified a genuine effort

you don't "just say that you're X"

[tidal quiver]

unrelated but I've made this cool new homebrew called the Hystrex Destroyer, I think it's really cool you won't believe what it does

[grizzled marsh]

That wasn't my point?
If you publicly claim philo, say that you will choose pixie tonight. Tomorrow onwards, what can you even do for the ST to consider giving you the ability once the character you learned die?

[fleet hedge]

do your absolute best to convince people

come up with a reason why you lied yesterday, or say your character actually changed

[junior knot]

If you're outed philo you are a decent pithag/cere target

[unkempt tangle]

But if you say you are choosing pixie....

[grizzled marsh]

Let's assume that a character isn't on the script by default. Your character cannot change, and pixie is the only madness role onn script

[junior knot]

It was a response to pond's claim of character changing

[junior knot]

That's a really strong pixie then

[grizzled marsh]

It was just meant to be an example about how sometimes your past actions prevents you from being able to succesfully be mad about something

[fleet hedge]

'A player who is "mad" about something is trying to convince the group that something is true.'

how can previous situations stop someone from trying?

[junior knot]

What about this scenario:
You are ceremad as the slayer in a cere /twins game.
That same day, a successful slayer shot by the real slayer went off.
There is no mutant on script or means for ability duplication

How could you maintain madness/avoid being executed?

[fleet hedge]

your only option is to argue that there was a ST mistake

also a good storyteller doesn't execute in that situation but that's a different question

[grizzled marsh]

Because in this specific instance, you are not mad that you are the cannibal, you are mad that you are the philo who chose pixie and learned cannibal

[fleet hedge]

which is why you need to try and convince town that you're not the Philo

somehow

you need to think of a good way to do that and that depends on the context of the game

[grizzled marsh]

Imo any attempt you try to make at justifying it will just make you mad that you're really trying to get the madness going instead of actually being the cannibal

[junior knot]

that feels overly pedantic/hyperspecific to the detriment of fun, imo

[grizzled marsh]

Is it realy pedantic to say that a philo can't claim to go pixie and get hopes of gaining the ability?

[junior knot]

saying "you're mad that you're trying to be mad" rather than just being mad when someone claims "I'm the cannibal" seems overly pedantic

[grizzled marsh]

We should move the debate to #storytelling

[uneven field]

[12/11] What's the WORST amnesiac ability you've come up with?

[severe raven]

Each night, choose a number from 1 to 13. You have the nth ability on Bad Moon Rising. You can't die from it.

(The Demon got the Fool ability and I had to use a homebrew traveler's ability to bone collect the Fisherman to have any chance of salvaging it... good of course lost)

[tough silo]

There is no amnesiac player, instead a token jumps from player to player giving useful information to their team

Each night* the current player decides who holds the baby amnesiac. They can only choose players who have not had the baby

[uneven field]

(in a poppy grower legion game) each night* choose clockwise or counterclockwise: the nearest evil in that direction turns good

[barren sun]

EN: Make a guess. If you guess the Yaggabable phrase, your team wins.
The ability itself wasn't that bad; but on top of being hard to achieve a successful yoga guess, it was hard to figure out. The player spent like 3 days confused, one poisoned, one minstrel drunk and then the cannibal didn't even try.
Also there was a wizard that switched the clock upside down, when A was on the block, A's furthest neighbour would be executed instead, and I used the Yag ability to try and make it less obvious what was happening.
They just were too lost with the game state

[tough silo]

You gotta sometimes give a damn hint, tell em your character is similar to alsahiir

[junior knot]

EN, choose a character on script. If in play that character has no ability. If not, a previously selected character of that type might regain their ability.

basically an EN ojo-preacher.

[barren sun]

The prompt is worst ability for a reason
Learning from my mistakes though; for example now I always make sure that everyone knows what the f is a Riot when Whalebuffet shenanigans

[nimble rose]

The worst one I ran was "Minions are secretly good"

[junior knot]

at home

[nimble rose]

The amne proceeded to get executed day 1 then not use their guesses while dead (even though I said before the game started they could)

The empath sitting between a minion and a good player was confused when their neighbours didn't change but their number did

As soon as the amne died I realized it was bad because I wasn't sure if it should turn off when the amne died or not

[karmic rose]

yeah sitting through the rest of the game after you realize you cocked up the balance suuucks

genuinely my least favorite feeling as both an ST and a player

[sour harness]

Each night*, guess a Grimoire. Learn how many characters are correct, how many are just in the wrong spot, and how many are wrong

This is fine in some contexts but it wasn't fine in LuF

[feral snow]

See this depends who you ask

I have run some truly awful amnesiac abilities

But like subtly awful

The one I’m known for is that one catfishing one

“Each night, you learn how many Townsfolk are alive”

Unfortunately it was vigor and there weren’t many other ways to get an 8 night 1 so the Amne bingo’ed immediately

I’ve done both “each night, you learn an in play character” and “each night, you learn a not in play character”

[junior knot]

There's ol' reliable: The Storyteller can break the game rules, and if executed, good wins, even if you are dead. [No evil characters]

or a pick your poison janky/broken homebrew

[finite wigeon]

From that same game as my best Amne ability (Pixie Amne who got the ability they were bluffing) I gave the Amne the HBL Seraph ability

It's something like "If you nominate & execute a good player, they learn this tonight."

Awesome ability, terrible Amne

[junior knot]

anyone willing to share any best/worst amne abilities NMBH style (outsider amne)?

[dusty thistle]

I saw an Anne ability in NMBH that was each night* gain a traveler ability.

Which couldn't be more townsfolk if you tried.

I've never run amne so I can't weigh in more.

[junior knot]

not true

you could make it en* gain 2 traveler abilities

or hell, 3

[dusty thistle]

Oh wait sorry, it was each night

Why did I add the star.

[junior knot]

italics

[dusty thistle]

But yeah, it was definitely a townsfolk

[junior knot]

https://tenor.com/view/megamind-presentation-cool-dramatic-behold-gif-4559759

[junior knot]

** [11/13]: ** in your opinion, what is the difference between an amnesiac ability and a homebrew townsfolk ability?

[unkempt tangle]

Amnesiac abilities need to be considered in terms of how easily they can be guessed

[dense moat]

The homebrew townsfolk knows their ability

[unkempt tangle]

Homebrew abilities need their script presence to be considered even if not in play

For example, Pixie on script can make double claims less suspicious. But if Pixie were an Amnesiac ability, it wouldn't do that.

[versed junco]

are we done here? we might be done here

[unkempt tangle]

no because homebrew characters appear on the script, whereas amnesiac abilities dont

[junior knot]

I guess the follow up would be how it affects what you make them/how you design them?

[unkempt tangle]

you could make an amne and just tell them their ability as part of their ability

but that would still be different from a homebrew townsfolk

Flowergirl being on script means the demon needs to be cautious of how they vote. Amnesiac Flowergirl wouldn't give the demon any warning that their voting might matter in that way. Telling the amnesiac their ability doesn't change that.

[junior knot]

part of the ability could be announcing it publicly

but that would likely be a stupid amne

[unkempt tangle]

then the amne is publicly confirmed

unlike a real flowergirl

[junior knot]

it could include even if you're not in play

but that gets way too complicated for my taste

[karmic rose]

I don't hate amnes that can guess it easily, so long as it isn't super busted for the amne to do so

[unkempt tangle]

LOL. Amne ability: ___ bullshit happens, even if not in play.

even if not on script, why not

[junior knot]

offscript atheist from first principles?

[unkempt tangle]

Realistically, how would an evil player bluff being this character?

[karmic rose]

You'd have to announce beforehand that you're open to "even if not in the bag" amnes

[junior knot]

boffin atheist duh

or wizard

[unkempt tangle]

anyways, script presence matters for homebrews

amnes dont have script presence

[low umbra]

One difference is that amne can be bluffed by just giving nonsense /j

[junior knot]

would you ever do say amne-flowergirl with an actual flowergirl on script?

[unkempt tangle]

why?

seems kinda lame lol

also having two legitimate claims of the same role means that they can compare info to soft confirm each other

[low umbra]

Amne ability: you think you are x townsfolk. You receive true information from this ability

[junior knot]

absolute ass in a vortox game

[low umbra]

I never said it was good :p

[junior knot]

actually, funny outsider amne in a Vortox game

its also very funny if, in a barber swap you change the character

[dusty thistle]

The scriptwriter or homebrewer makes the homebrew townsfolk ability, the ST makes the Amne ability

[lost thistle]

just make it a fabled

[barren sun]

The Amnesiac needs to guess it first to use it to its full potential, therefore, it's not that dependent or tied to the script, and it can and should be the most powerful TF ability on the Grim
The Homebrew can perfectly be a suitable Amne ability, as long as it's not overpowered with the other characters on the script

[uneven field]

bad amnesiac ability is non-consensual

[junior knot]

Letting untrustworthy STs near amne is a form of consent, no?

[low umbra]

It’s not informed consent, but it is consent. So like, kind of both right

[pseudo fulcrum]

14/11: What would each character's most used emoji be?

[abstract cosmos]

/ : 😋

[versed junco]

💀 💀 💀 💀

[finite wigeon]

Politician when presented with logic would break out the 🤓 👆

[pastel prism]

: ❤️

[versed junco]

😀

There's nothing in those soulless eyes

[cold veldt]

that's so true actually

[foggy grotto]

: 🤣😂🤣

[tough silo]

What do you guys consider untrustworthy as STs?

[tough silo]

Investigator: 🧐👀👁️👄👁️

[wispy nest]

💀

[junior knot]

: 🫡

[supple dirge]

👌👌👌

[dusty thistle]

🖕

[dusty thistle]

This also applies to psychopath

[dense moat]

🔥

[uneven field]

🫡

"🫡 you got it boss"

(I do this)

😭

👍

✨

(c:

❌

[supple dirge]

🗿

[uneven field]

sorry, it's just true

[dense moat]

❓

❤️

[dense moat]

🙏

[uneven field]

❤️
💜

[dense moat]

(or maybe Preacher)

would Preacher hate phones or the internet?

[uneven field]

no

preacher is on facebook

constantly

[dense moat]

who's the character who doesnt have a most used emoji specifically because they dont use social mdeia?

Maybe something eldritch horror-y? Leviathan?

[uneven field]

[insert country flag]

[uneven field]

shabaloth is an animal

recluse does not have a phone

grandmother only uses old school emoticons

[dense moat]

would leviathan have a phone?

Maybe. What else are theydoing in those 5 days?

[uneven field]

counterpoint, maybe leviathan can wait patiently for five days because their brain hasn't been consumed by subway surfers brainrot

[dense moat]

Would have something, but got banned for leaking people's personal info

on basically every social media platform out there

[uneven field]

snitch is on kiwifarms

[dusty thistle]

Also banned for leaking personal info.

[dense moat]

Als unrelated, but has like 1000 copypastas they message to random people every day

[uneven field]

the difference between and is is spreading tea and is doxxing trans people

[dusty thistle]

Yagga's account is an automated spam bot

[uneven field]

strikes me as a 🫶 girlie

[dense moat]

🫠

Idk. She seems a bit downt to earth and pessimistic at the same time?

[uneven field]

👁️

[dense moat]

theres probably a better one for that

🤔

[uneven field]

🙃

[dense moat]

this could be Savant

[unkempt tangle]

🤔

[dusty thistle]

Better one for BH: 🤨

[unkempt tangle]

🩵

[dense moat]

👍

[dense moat]

(to litearly everything their friend says)

[uneven field]

🧱

[dusty thistle]

Ogre being a yes man what not something I thought of until now

[dusty thistle]

No no no! 🔥!

[uneven field]

absolutely not, think harder

[dusty thistle]

Or 💣

[unkempt tangle]

some stupid meme emoji

[uneven field]

this is surface level caricature

[dense moat]

what would have?

[uneven field]

mutant doesn't post

[dusty thistle]

It's only slightly more violent than your's.

[uneven field]

it's less realistic

[dusty thistle]

True, true

[dense moat]

🤡 (stirring drama)

🥳

[uneven field]

🈲

it makes sense in context

[dense moat]

😔

😌

[dense moat]

(this could be better)

maybe?

[unkempt tangle]

😊

[dense moat]

(idk I thought Damsel is a rich bitch. Not arraogant in the way i chose, but like, rich and looks down on everyone)

the queen bee in her normal life

[unkempt tangle]

✍️

[supple dirge]

📣 BOB IS A MINION... probably, maybe

[pastel prism]

😁

[dense moat]

😎

[pastel prism]

they have random convos with each other and constantly respond to one another with 😁, it's somewhat strange to the good players but they don't question it

🌝

not fully sure why myself, this one's just a vibe

[supple dirge]

Legion game: 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🫶 🙂 🙂 🕵️‍♂️ 🍭 🙂

[pastel prism]

😑

👀

🤭

😌

[brittle bridge]

[supple dirge]

🙈
🙊

[wispy nest]

⛰️

See the link

[uneven field]

is surprisingly 🧀

[tough silo]

🤫

[fallow rapids]

💔

[karmic rose]

11/15: Steven Meday has talked about designing characters and realizing that they're just worse/better versions of other characters. What characters do you think could/should be tuned up or down?

Knight feels like a weaker Fortune Teller except in contexts where the ST direction (or information reversal) feels crucial

[tidal quiver]

someone's gonna say steward but I think it's low hanging fruit

[sour harness]

Steward

[tidal quiver]

🗨️ someone

[sour harness]

PG is also usually just stronger magician

(magician is the better balance point)

[tidal quiver]

yeah that's very true (as much as I try to come up with reasons otherwise) (it just means I get to play the underdog)

[sour harness]

Oh and let's get artist seamstress out of the way too

[karmic rose]

i'll defend seamstress

i've never seen a new player use artist in a way that actually outshone a seam

[modern plume]

I've used an Artist bluff to drive multiple executions and discount the actual demon type

[tidal quiver]

I'm gonna say sweetheart to be toned up, actually. It's like puzzlemaster but it only triggers on death which makes it so that n1 info can never be poisoned if it happens at all. While the guess in some ways balances it out, I've extremely rarely actually seen a puzzlemaster guess their quarry and it's always been the tradeoff of 'you will always drunk a player from the very beginning BUT you get a guess as to who it is, which you can only really test by executing someone.' That tradeoff doesn't seem balanced in most cases

(now, I don't mean that like snv should be changed, but that it feels like a less bad puzzlemaster)

[karmic rose]

trueee

sweetheart so rarely goes on my scripts b/c I want my N1 info to be droisoned

[junior knot]

Can i say gossip/artist?

[karmic rose]

those are both stronk

[junior knot]

It just feels like unless the whole script is designed to accommodate it, gossip is just an en artist

[karmic rose]

i could see a toned-down clockmaker being huge (chef fans do not interact)

well yeah gossip is an artist within a bmr environment

[tidal quiver]

this might be controversial I have no idea but perhaps widow is just a weaker version of spy

[karmic rose]

widow is a version of spy where outright droison is more powerful than disrupting certain confirmation chains

is a permanent poison equivalent to appearing as a washerwoman ping? depends a lot on script

[tidal quiver]

yeah that's fair, spy can outright cause misinfo though with abilities that relate the spy and other players (seam, savant, etc)

this is very fair

but in addition, you only see the grim n1 instead of each night (which is very relevant for some abilities and not relavant at all for others) and you have to be loud to cause misinfo, which means one player immediately knows a widow is in play and can try to counter it by being open and encourage others to do the same

[dusty thistle]

Id say spy is probably stronger in general, but it's close

[karmic rose]

thinking about cultists of atlantis, which has both

[dusty thistle]

Anyway, low hanging fruit but Xaan is stronger Baron.

[karmic rose]

hm

[tidal quiver]

yeah putting them both together is super based ngl

[karmic rose]

i disagree slightly on xaan/baron

[dusty thistle]

Anything Baron can do, Xaan can theoretically do better.

[tidal quiver]

I mean xaan can totally be, and it can be like wayy more but you probably shouldn't

[karmic rose]

yeah but xaan 4 is bad

[dusty thistle]

Oh absolutely, don't do this

[junior knot]

Wraith is weaker spy lol

[dusty thistle]

but it could

[junior knot]

xaan can't imply drunk with an outsider claim

[dusty thistle]

That's generally a good thing

[karmic rose]

wraith doesn't disable damsel/heretic

[junior knot]

xaan 4 but the game is over by then

[karmic rose]

and coordinates evil bluffs

[junior knot]

just don't script that in the first place

[junior knot]

so can spy

spy knows exactly whats out of play

i know, its scary to have to talk to people in a social deduction game

[tidal quiver]

in addition to the coordination, wraith gets a bunch of very sneaky and small advantages in being able to see what info people get- whether people have evil pings on your demon, for instance

[dusty thistle]

What? Preposterous!

[karmic rose]

spy needs to talk to fellow evils; wraith does so during the night. wraith/damsel is super evil-sided but can work with the right town suite, similarly to ojo

[dusty thistle]

>

[junior knot]

Also, may I be the first to say v ?

[dusty thistle]

Vizier worse judge?

[junior knot]

well yeah, poisoner actually does something

[karmic rose]

ok me fighting all of these is making me realize that clocktower is well-designed, atually

big if true

[junior knot]

Also > (don't have me vati)

[dusty thistle]

Did you mean > ?

[karmic rose]

there's at least one context in which the "undertuned" character is fine

[dusty thistle]

Depends on the context

[karmic rose]

clock is usually much stronger than chef, but legion/typhon

[junior knot]

that's not necessarily invalidating the question though

just because some characters are just X but a little better, or Y but a little worse, they can still have environments where they work

[karmic rose]

true!

[dusty thistle]

Man, it actually is hard to find characters that are just strictly better than others

[modern plume]

You're never going to convince me to put Spy in my Golden Border of Prester John script over the Widow being on there.

[junior knot]

v ?

[dusty thistle]

Only in chaos hatter

[junior knot]

vs ?

[hollow oasis]

what

[modern plume]

Barber on a Damsel script makes Barber a much more damaging outsider

[hollow oasis]

>

[dusty thistle]

The last one I can think of is >

[karmic rose]

i think i am not expressing what i'm trying to say here super well -- some characters are often better/worse versions of others, and hypothetical weaker/stronger version of existing characters would make scripting easier! but seeing "x character is a better version of y" is making me realize that there are very few characters for which this is the case 100% of the time and, as a result, stedway knows what he's cooking c:

[dusty thistle]

Barber is really damaging regardless

[hollow oasis]

> /j

[junior knot]

its just snv is so cracked all around its a little hidden

[dusty thistle]

No Dashii is... shudders

[hollow oasis]

>

prove me wrong folks

[dusty thistle]

Already mentioned

[hollow oasis]

oh damn

[junior knot]

.

v ?

[acoustic chasm]

Knight < Fortune Teller

[junior knot]

or hell v

[hollow oasis]

vs

[acoustic chasm]

But they belong on different types of scripts!!!!!!

[hollow oasis]

spicy I know

[junior knot]

v

[dusty thistle]

Oh that's a good one

v

[brittle bridge]

v

[junior knot]

v

[dusty thistle]

vs

[karmic rose]

ravenkeeper is more powerful and dreamer is weaker than folks let on

[hollow oasis]

>

[junior knot]

v ?

[dusty thistle]

Like actually though, barber chaining was so good for town they made it a bait role

[hollow oasis]

true

[dusty thistle]

> (insert outsider here)

[junior knot]

v ?

[dusty thistle]

Butler is better

[hollow oasis]

reverse that

butler's voting shenanigans actually has social cover

zealot doesn't

[junior knot]

im not saying which is which

[karmic rose]

butler gets to convert a goon

[dusty thistle]

I think v means relatively even, right?

[junior knot]

no im just comparing

[dusty thistle]

Id say >

[hollow oasis]

Oh I thought it was "left is better"

[dusty thistle]

No we use > or < for that

[hollow oasis]

ohhh

[dusty thistle]

For example: lemon>nerdguy

[junior knot]

its just my way of saying i think these are pretty similar, but i am ass at judging relative strength

[fallow rapids]

>

[junior knot]

<

[hollow oasis]

nerdguy>>lemon

[junior knot]

>

[hollow oasis]

see I have depicted myself on the bigger side of the "greater than" operator, meaning I am objectively correct

[dusty thistle]

wheredidyoufindthatgoodtwinemojiandcanihaveit

[karmic rose]

is it not on server

[hollow oasis]

[junior knot]

literally just do : good_twin :

[hollow oasis]

it's on server

[dusty thistle]

I didn't know that

[hollow oasis]

someone do occultist vs mutant

[junior knot]

Im gonna ruffle some feathers

[dusty thistle]

anyway: >

[junior knot]

<

[hollow oasis]

|| 🪭 > ||

[dusty thistle]

Uhh...yeah

It definitely more damaging

[fallow rapids]

yeah like

[dusty thistle]

But are they carbon copies? No

[junior knot]

but it fills the exact same niche on a script

[hollow oasis]

Where and If: The relationship of Damsel and Heretic

[fallow rapids]

i don‘t think it does actually

damsel niche and heretic niche are quite different

[junior knot]

hidden outsider that if outed gives evil an easy wincon

[fallow rapids]

i mean huntsman-damsel-heretic is good too

[dusty thistle]

Cold take: damsel is an intermediate-advaced character and Heretic is strictly advanced

[hollow oasis]

I love heretic

[dusty thistle]

No you hate it

[junior knot]

you love heretic-godfather

[hollow oasis]

A:That's a bandaid

B:It's fucking leviathan what am I supposed to do

[junior knot]

damn theres no || daughter of nox || react

[dusty thistle]

No no that's enough of that

[junior knot]

i guess that works

<

[dusty thistle]

Uhh? Not really?

Mastermind is more a "win now" character

[junior knot]

just because you're minuit-pilled...

[hollow oasis]

Assassin has 0 use in normal levi

[karmic rose]

damsel is based and heretic is cringe

[dusty thistle]

Oh no, I'm BMR maxxing

[hollow oasis]

dawg it's a BMR take too

source:This is how you win with Mastermind

[dusty thistle]

For a more apt one >

[hollow oasis]

proof:125 BMR games

[karmic rose]

❓

[junior knot]

says the guy who got quintuple tapped

[hollow oasis]

because town was bad

[fallow rapids]

> :)

[hollow oasis]

we won that game I think anyway

[karmic rose]

consider: i'm unfunny

[junior knot]

but im not funny

[junior knot]

beat me to it

[dusty thistle]

How's that long text game going anyway?

I'm sure you're dying to know how funny you are

[junior knot]

< (as a bluff)

[junior knot]

isn't the past tense of dying dead?

[hollow oasis]

doubt

[karmic rose]

it's fine lol, i usually try to treat deviant like a blank {color} token and help the game be fun for newer players etc

[junior knot]

ok i feel like gambler is just a stronger acro, no?

[dusty thistle]

I'm so sorry Amy. I will figure out recommended travelers for that script ASAP

[karmic rose]

i don't love the social dynamics of aggressively trying to be funny

nah it's good lo!!!

i genuinely don't mind playing deviant ever

[junior knot]

someone clearly didn't try to shoot milk out of their nose in elementary school

(its a psych reference)

[dusty thistle]

Still though, kinda embarrassing I forgot a crucial part of the script

[fallow rapids]

what⸮

[hollow oasis]

I purposefully and intentionally put deviant in play on BMR specifically to fuck over traveller science

[junior knot]

the tv show psych

[dusty thistle]

I know the joke, but not why it's a psych reference

[junior knot]

the daredevil episode

[dusty thistle]

That joke is way older than psych

[hollow oasis]

and immediately get a sense of humor

[junior knot]

oh ik i just saw it there first

[hollow oasis]

Traveller science is stupid.

[dense moat]

[junior knot]

wth is traveller science

[dusty thistle]

Deviant, luckily, is the second best traveler in the game

[dense moat]

Often way too loud for its own good

[hollow oasis]

Tea lady neighboring traveller

exile them to get a free tea lady check

[junior knot]

oh just use moonlighting

[karmic rose]

Deviant is 100% the standard "low impact" traveller and I'll never fault a scripter or storyteller for requesting it

[dusty thistle]

What is it a strictly worse copy of though?

[dense moat]

And like yeah, wincon.

But between that and the split between people who just want constant self noms

[hollow oasis]

bootlegger gets less players than BMR already does

[dense moat]

Oh I didn’t track the copy but from a moment lmao

[fallow rapids]

> >

i love books

[dense moat]

I assumed you just meant characters that could be nerfed or buffed

[dusty thistle]

What's your favorite?

[junior knot]

< ?

[junior knot]

uhhh, the bible?

[dusty thistle]

Turn that one around, good sir

Summoner is strictly better than Kazali

[junior knot]

until kaz is only demon on script

[dusty thistle]

(not that that's a bad thing)

[karmic rose]

i personally don't love arbitrating it and I'd rather err on the side of "quiet and less funny" than on the side of "loud and annoying," but I also don't mind if my exile is called and the ST decides I can die

[junior knot]

wait nvm forget that

[dusty thistle]

Even then it's probably strictly better

I was building a solo-Kaz Summoner script and then the new jinxes came out

jazz hands

Yay...

[junior knot]

i feel like there's something to be said for

[karmic rose]

normalize editing script PDFs to read "this jinx is wack and will be ignored"

[dusty thistle]

Oh, the old jinx was great

[junior knot]

just don't put on script then

[dusty thistle]

I'm just going to bootleg it

[junior knot]

they're only relevant when djinn is in play

[fallow rapids]

Morphosyntax Constructions of the World's Languages by William Croft, University of New Mexico, 2022

each one of its 726 pages is good

[junior knot]

didn't you write that one?

[dusty thistle]

Thanks, I'll make sure to check it out at my local library

Thanks @fallow rapids

[dense moat]

<

[digital drum]

Gave +1 Thanks to @fallow rapids (current: #1670 - 7)

[dense moat]

Mayor, you can trust as long as you know they arent starting evil

[junior knot]

cult is a weaker goon no?

[dusty thistle]

>

[junior knot]

not mayor?

[dusty thistle]

Unless your town is a group of degenerates

[junior knot]

according to @hollow oasis they're equal

[dense moat]

I mean, Townsfolk Outsider split

[hollow oasis]

no they're not

Cult leader is outsider empath

[dusty thistle]

Unless you try to win day 1

Then it's just better, and a lot lamer

[dense moat]

But yeah, Cult Leader can be evil as long as they neighbor a starting evil. And they can be evil basically any point in the game. You can snap them out of evil or into

And that makes it much more dangerous to lose the game to them. You cant solve for it to the degree you can a Mayor

[dusty thistle]

Also, worse Empath!

[dense moat]

which also makes it really dangerous to go for early, even tho CL lets you try as many times as you want

[junior knot]

<

[dusty thistle]

Honestly just one of the least well designed characters in the game, behind one

[dense moat]

which?

[dusty thistle]

[junior knot]

<

[dusty thistle]

I hate the Zealot. It's just so boring, it does nothing, it's so bad

[dense moat]

Zealot may be a pain in the ass to bluff but its at least doing its character type

Unless you count "being annoying to bluff" as a weak Townsfolk

[dusty thistle]

Not at all, its just such a waste of a slot

[hollow oasis]

I would

because princess exists

[dusty thistle]

Princess is a support role

[dense moat]

Princess also genuinely stops deaths

[hollow oasis]

Zealot helps with executing

[dusty thistle]

99% of the time Zealot is on script, Butler is better

[dense moat]

Zealot is bluffable. Its just obnoxious cause evil has to comit to voting against their interest s too

[hollow oasis]

and this is actively more damaging than the effect of a good player doing it

[dense moat]

cause evil has so much less voting power, i assume you mean

[hollow oasis]

yes

[dusty thistle]

That one percent is in exactly... actually no, I can't think of anything

[hollow oasis]

wincon

[dusty thistle]

Actually this secret thing question is perfect!

[junior knot]

butler is already on script

[dusty thistle]

<

[dusty thistle]

Ok, yeah. Touché

[junior knot]

or you're stacking it with OG/Vizier

[dusty thistle]

Butler is better there too

[junior knot]

not with OG

[dusty thistle]

Yes it is.

[junior knot]

(i don't like the jinx)

[dusty thistle]

It's such a cool jinx with OG, and Zealot is freaking awful in Vizier

[junior knot]

its much more of an outsider there

[hollow oasis]

Vizier can have nice things

[dusty thistle]

The jinx just renders Zealot nuetralized, and it becomes a similar, though slightly less impactful, version of the Legion+Zealot problem

[junior knot]

<

[dense moat]

The funny thing abou Zealot is that while it makes it harder to get votes on things, it shard for evil to outright lift without outing themselves

and good can play around it relatively easy

[hollow oasis]

yea

[junior knot]

>

[hollow oasis]

Golem has a weird voting pattern as a downside for confirmation

Butler has it to replicate evil

Zealot is haha funny

[dusty thistle]

Anyway, I apologize for the impassioned rant on my least favorite character. I've been spending too much time around requiem

[hollow oasis]

I vote all the time

[junior knot]

Zealot is for those longtexters

who say "yes until someone's on the block"

every time

>

[dense moat]

(hmmm.... the ST does have to kill evils)

[junior knot]

<

[dusty thistle]

& >

[dusty thistle]

These two serve wildly different purposes

[dense moat]

not a good comparsion. one is a minion who has a sleeper agent evil. No Dash poisons but doesnt let you bait

[dense moat]

(dies n2)

mostly /j.

[dusty thistle]

>

[junior knot]

you executed a

[dusty thistle]

Shab game, the Pixie-Banshee also triggers

Evil now has +4 votes!

[junior knot]

+ at home

v ?

(ask any TB modifiers)

[dusty thistle]

They're all wrong, of course

[junior knot]

pithag v cacklejackle

[next marlin]

The 1% is speedies

[dry sluice]

<

[naive flame]

Any new questions... 👀

[modern plume]

A question has been asked already

[naive flame]

Where 👀

I want to answer it for a bit see what I can answer of.

[modern plume]

Here

[naive flame]

63k messages on this single forum..

It's almost gonna hit 100k 👀

[naive flame]

We have

And then it's pocket wannabe

There's also the

being a wannabe character..

[feral snow]

I’ve been very vocal in the past about how I think it’s silly to argue that some characters are “stronger” or “weaker” than other characters because their strength is always relative to the point where comparison is either too broad to be helpful or too specific to be helpful

In Stevens post about this he mentioned this, saying that all Townsfolk have their strengths and weaknesses, and that none is significantly better or worse versions of other ones (citing specifically Artist as a counter example because look at it)

I maintain this philosophy

And strongly believe that no official townsfolk is egregiously “weak” or useless, and I get greatly annoyed when my group says things like “X character is useless”

[hollow oasis]

love the clarification of TF

[feral snow]

People often cite Knight for being “weak” because it either narrows down the fewest worlds (on average based on one entropy chart) or because the demon can often move/players can become the demon

My answer to both these critiques is “make good scripts and not bad ones”

[feral snow]

I specified townsfolk because Steven did

[hollow oasis]

oh that's even better

[feral snow]

I feel generally the same way about all characters in this game, but Townsfolk (and rarely outsiders) are the ones most often discussed in these talks

[hollow oasis]

Vizier

[feral snow]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone go “al-had is weaker Po”

[hollow oasis]

is weaker psycho

I'll see myself out

[feral snow]

Also please god never bring win rates into these discussions. They are part of the “too broad to be helpful” category of knowledge

[feral snow]

It’s not

[hollow oasis]

what saving grace does it even have

ignoring winrates

[feral snow]

It punishes lack of coordination amongst the good team by wasting their single most valuable resource: executions

[hollow oasis]

so you punish them... for losing

and then if they do counterplay

[feral snow]

???

Good can be winning and vote in an uncoordinated way

That swings it for evil pretty hard

I think vizier is missing a lot of script support right now I won’t deny that

[hollow oasis]

it's also just "damn you confirmed that person as good"

[feral snow]

But that doesn’t make it a “weaker psycho” or “useless character”

[hollow oasis]

in a way that like

generally doesn't help

[feral snow]

When the expansions drop I’m making a fire vizier script so this argument stops

[hollow oasis]

(When psycho does it, it can be a confirmed player. When vizier does it, it's a person some good player wants dead for some reason)

[feral snow]

Sounds like they’re not that similar then

Also sounds like you need more reasons to execute good players

[hollow oasis]

more reasons for viziers to not use their ability

I mean I wish vizier was just like

silent

alsaahir jinx

[feral snow]

I can’t express how much I dislike that

[hollow oasis]

style

[hollow oasis]

there's still a signal of "damn they didn't die"

[feral snow]

You can’t remove that. That’s like the entire point of vizier

[hollow oasis]

to have an unnecessarily punishing downside?

I don't quite think it's necessary

[feral snow]

I think it’s the core part of vizier

And I get annoyed when people suggest removing it because it’s not a downside, it’s the core premise

You cannot have vizier without that first sentence

[hollow oasis]

have we considered the premise is bad and the second part is cool instead

[karmic rose]

maybe one day the rest of vizier's script will drop and it'll make sense

[hollow oasis]

time to make a minuit-like

[feral snow]

I’m saying if you want to propose changes to vizier, I implore you to keep the part I think is most important to the ability

[feral snow]

When we get more characters that work with it you’ll understand

[hollow oasis]

considering the execution clause can't be changed without literally breaking the game or making it useless(I'm not kidding)

That basically suggests "don't make changes" which like

yeah

sure

[feral snow]

I mean you can rework it fully

But to me the first part is more important to the Vizier identity than the last part

[hollow oasis]

I can't think of an ability that can go with the first slot that is like

warranted

without quite literally "You have 2 minion abilities"

[unkempt tangle]

How could Vizier be silent anyways

At least, it would reveal itself the moment it uses its ability

[lucid crag]

maybe make it like leviathan where people know it exists just not who it is

idk

[unkempt tangle]

It's probably the person who said "Vizier slam now!" and then caused the ST to force the execution

[lucid crag]

ye

though lets vizier talk to people d1

and actually get claims instead of getting ignored

[unkempt tangle]

Hmmm

[uneven field]

okay so hot take

there's an arif video where he puts the dreaded xaan 4 in the bag but then gives the amnesiac an ability to "balance" it, but then good ends up fucking stomping

why? because actually, xaan 4 is balanced

people throw in a 2 or a 3 90% of the time, and a 1 10% of the time

but a 4 every now and again should happen

yes, there are four outsiders, so? baron already does this, baron is not considered broken

"ah, but the poison" on night four

people solve xaan nights in gross

in a xaan 4, town will almost certainly naturally conclude that nights 1 and 2 are sober

in fact, outsiders on the board is a great way for town to do that, but if the meta is that it can only ever go up to 3, then that's not great

you turn the confirmatory downside of xaan into "good thinks all the outsiders are the evil team"

xaan 4 is balanced and healthy for the meta, you need to use xaan 4

[lucid crag]

baron is a weak minion at base 2 on tb because 3 outsiders are confirmed if good have even half decent socials

luckily all clocktower players are bad so it auto balances itself

this property naturally transfers to xaan

unless there are more than 1 hidden outsider

this may be shocking but it depends on the outsiders whether xaan 4 is balanced

if the outsiders are poli mutant drunk damsel

I may wager it and baron are both a little stupid lol

[fleet hedge]

poisoner + blank demon -> good wins
pukka + blank minion -> much better for evil

demons are just stronger than minions

a Pukka + Imp evil team is a hell of a lot better than a Poisoner + Imp evil team

[tough silo]

Fisherman is the cooler artist

[cold veldt]

fisherman is artist if it went on scripts

[wispy nest]

Well obviously one of them as two demons

[grizzled marsh]

Blank minion with or without killing power?

[junior knot]

> ?

> ?

>

[pastel prism]

psychopath outs itself

[junior knot]

and tanks multiple executions

[pastel prism]

but also rules out a ton of worlds

[junior knot]

(that's why you have minion mod)

[junior knot]

you say that like a witch kill doesn't

[pastel prism]

the fact that the Witch isn't identified when it kills means the Witch could be anyone, while Psychopath being identified means that's 1 less minion to account for when identifying everyone

killing does rule out worlds but it also speeds up the game

each and every execution and demon kill rules out worlds while also speeding up the game so what makes Witch/Psycho kills different?

[olive marsh]

is it? you’re still adding 2-3 outsiders

instead of removing all tf abilities for one night you’re removing 2-3 tf abilities for the whole game

and because xaan-mod is arbitrary, people are unlikely to believe that all the outsiders are good so that’ll eat into some of town’s limited executions

[dusty thistle]

Counterpoint: Psycho can go full stealth and win the game and Witch cannot

[junior knot]

that's just cuz witch turns off

[low umbra]

Idk I’ve seen witch win by cursing itself into f4 and only nominating once the demon had been unsuccessfully nommed

[grizzled marsh]

Nothing today?

[barren sun]

Im guessing people have exams around these dates

[junior knot]

** [11/16] **: What is your favorite Script-Warping character, and why?

Interpret script-warping however makes sense to you

[barren sun]

[karmic rose]

i'm a fan or whatever

[barren sun]

I'll never ever dare vote on a Goblin claim unless it's final 3. When correctly scriptbuilt, it helps minion (and potentially demon) survivability and makes me the worst Zealot ever.

[foggy grotto]

, i love the way it can make any outsider suite significantly quieter

is also pretty nifty

[barren sun]

I never understood why outsiders won't come out on a Fang Gu script (S&V is different cause of the nature of their abilities but) I'd come out day 1 and dare any Fang Gu jump to me knowing I'm a potential Fang Gu candidate on final 3

[junior knot]

then they jump and you get executed and lose

nice job

[dusty thistle]

It's also my favorite so:

It just applies so much pressure on good, and breeds so much delicious paranoia

[uneven field]

or more accurately they don't jump and you get executed

the main thing holding back the meta of getting yourself killed immediately as an outsider on fang gu scripts is people's desire to turn evil

[grizzled marsh]

+1 for Leviathan

[barren sun]

They would also lose with me lol

[coarse fern]

[grizzled marsh]

Wizard could be a contender if it wasn't for the fact that people use it to "have fun" slightly too often

[junior knot]

if it weren't for "people" we could have a lot more nice things...

[finite wigeon]

is so extremely underrated

[finite wigeon]

Wizard in theory: ok, this could be fun. Bluff impossibilities hell yeah.

Wizard in practice: oh this game isn't fun.

I've ran Wizard twice and both times the Wizard wish barely helped evil

[junior knot]

it should be kinda like twins

where it becomes a minigame to distract town from finding the demon

[supple dirge]

Wizard's my favorite character. Been a lot of fun having really weird things happen where a dozen wishes went off and things go off the rails, some random thing that had a loud and pointless effect, or nothing happen because the wish ending up doing nothing. Thankfully haven't had any real bad experiences playing it.

[hollow oasis]

Notably, sometimes the misinfoless demon goes under fire and you’re their best shot

[brittle bridge]

wizard is a great character when the st doesnt overbalance or the player doesnt make a wish that is not helpful at all

[hollow oasis]

So outing becomes

A:they know who to jump to

and B:giant target on your back anyway(this does not help your team, evil or good)

Instead of

A:leaving the demon clueless about your location(great for good)

or

B:leaving town clueless about your location(great for being a demon)

[low umbra]

I don’t see how SnV is different to customs with Fang Gu, in terms of the fang gu’s impact on outsiders being quiet

[karmic rose]

SnV outsiders already want to be fairly hidden, and fang gu makes them moreso

[junior knot]

they generally want to stay alive so they don't hinder town

[hollow oasis]

except mutant

[karmic rose]

SnV outsiders tend to go public after dying

[hollow oasis]

but they're already lying so it's ok

[junior knot]

they don't want to hinder town by wasting an execution

[karmic rose]

On customs, you can have a Puzzlemaster lying on the first few days

[hollow oasis]

is it just me or is Sweetheart just not real on SNV

[junior knot]

its the same thing as vigor poison

but also don't sweetheart poison an outsider becuase the fang gu will just jump to them

its the same phenomenon that happens when summoner and puzzlemaster are on the same script

[low umbra]

Yeah I don’t recall a sweetheart ever making a game-changing drunk target in a game that I’ve played or STed. Like in 2/3 games I’ve been a player in with a klutz and sweetheart, the klutz just becomes sweetheart drunk which feels so odd lol

[hollow oasis]

drunk a TF what

[low umbra]

That’s what I’m saying LOL

[fleet hedge]

Why is ST making Sweetheart a Townsfolk

wtf

[low umbra]

Apparently the klutz being alive with 3 evils and 2 other good players is too evil-sided

[junior knot]

so just don't die then?

[modern plume]

Why punish Evil for managing to keep a Klutz alive to the end game?

[fleet hedge]

this is exactly why a lot of people think they hate clocktower 😭

ST doing everything they can to rubber band the game

[fiery sleet]

Legion cuz it's just so peak

[hollow oasis]

Legion because it's just so peak

[marsh pike]

, very dangerous and spooky

[supple dirge]

[11/17] If a clocktower character showed up in this thread, what daily question would they ask?

[hollow oasis]

Why is this hard

Hmm

[junior knot]

https://tenor.com/view/am-i-man-or-a-muppet-the-muppets-man-or-muppet-song-am-i-a-man-or-am-i-a-muppet-gif-2290380059705419984

^

[hollow oasis]

Why do y’all talk about us so much

[junior knot]

"..."

[modern plume]

Grandmother : "Recipes for delicious cakes?"
"Google for recipes for cakes?"
"How do I use google not discord?"
"How do I find google?"
"Please use google?"

[foggy grotto]

Would just repeat the question that was already asked that day and get all the attention

[fallow rapids]

h wo do ai jsui t se disoci rd paoks er h pl

[versed junco]

Where to find The Honourable Judge

[brittle bridge]

if a character was to have any dirty secrets what would they be just hypothetically like theoretically and everything

[dusty thistle]

:insert character here: Hey uhh what the hell? Where am I? Where is my family? Why am I no longer in Ravenswood Bluff? How did I get here? Who are you? Why are you talking about me? What is...

[next marlin]

dw I already know the answer to these it's fine

[dusty thistle]

What did you do? What do you want?

[fiery sleet]

: If a dead person calling themself the "Storyteller" startled you awake only to tell you "you learn a one" before disappearing, what the heck does that mean?!?!?

[pastel prism]

we're a plane of reality above you, good luck with the horrors beyond your comprehension

(plot twist, the character is Leviathan)

[fiery sleet]

Who loves peppermints around Christmas time? I sure could go for a peppermint right now. Anyone else craving peppermints?

[junior knot]

I don't really like those things

maybe a candy cane?

[supple dirge]

I love mints, especially pepper... flavored mints.

[junior knot]

gosh this is like that song in beetlejuice the musical

[dense moat]

What's the happiest day you've had in your life?

[pastel prism]

Did you guys know that Sara is evil? Interesting, right?

[junior knot]

Hey, why did you make my cursed phrase the entire cript of Hamilton?

[barren sun]

How do you like your tea?

[junior knot]

shaken, not stirred

[finite wigeon]

what is your botc "hear me out"?

what is a "hear me out"??

hear me out

fear me out

[pastel prism]

hear me

[barren sun]

: Mister

[pastel prism]

hear ye*

[supple dirge]

Yo hear me out but, if you hear me out... I mean hear me out on this... What is your hear out?

[pastel prism]

(this is the town crier correcting themselves not me correcting myself)

[barren sun]

dont hear me out

[fiery sleet]

gear me out

: beer me out

[junior knot]

: Sear me out

[fiery sleet]

: Shear me out

[junior knot]

: Steer me out

: near me out?

[fiery sleet]

: Year me out

[junior knot]

: Deer me out

: Dear me out

: Clear me out

[olive marsh]

: queer me out

[fiery sleet]

: Jeer me out

[junior knot]

: Smear me out

: Rear me out

: Leer me out

Sheer me out?

: Peer me out

: Pier me out

: Sneer me out

[unkempt tangle]

career me out

[junior knot]

.

[unkempt tangle]

Yeah I saw