secret thing

[foggy grotto]

i genuinely think im the exact opposite of this

eh maybe engineer isnt #1

[dense moat]

I mean, I was half expecting someone to choose Organ Grinder as least favorite

[tacit fiber]

[foggy grotto]

It has its problems with random lobbies sure, but its just such a fun and creative role that it outshines its problems
Oh boy i love turning off a core feature of the game

[cold veldt]

it's peak
can't stand the noble

[tacit fiber]

Flips the game on its head and the paranoia of being good on a legion script rocks

there are pages and pages of things I could write about this arbatrary role that doesn't actually give any info about the game and a social lubricant in a game where every character is designed to socially lubricate anyway

[foggy grotto]

Requiem W

[next marlin]

The narrative control demon. Incredibly fun to play in a nightmarishly high-intensity way. Has its issues as a consequence of the particular way it controls narratives; is, like all roles like it, a role that would have found a way to end up in the game on premise alone. Other picks include Puzzlemaster for being the best released outsider and it isn't close and Widow for being a grim peeker and thus inherently cool.
I dislike a lot of the experimentals tbh but the harpywall is a known quantity

[zenith lotus]

really cool and really janky
its kind of okay and it fills a niche, but i think its too loud. make it like widow volume or something

[ebon idol]

Probably legion or wizard for least favorite, I still standby the opinion the botc community is not ready for either of them

[lost thistle]

[+2 snakechamers] but done by the player instead of the st having to come up with something that benefits town but not too much

being evil in a poppy grower game is feelsbad and ive had horrible experiences with it
not to mention the uh. Interactions™️ with a droisoned poppy grower

the whole idea of baiting evils in poppygrower by pretending to be evil also turns it into hyper minefield hellscape

[ebon idol]

There’s soooo many good experimental characters it’s hard to choose my favorite

Probably pixie, shugenja, maybe goblin? Idk

Pixie just adds a lot of depth and is socially a fun character

Shugenja is just a good YSK

Goblin is just great

[spiral pollen]

My favourite is between goblin and damsel, both big social characters with high stakes and generally fun situations

Least favourite is preacher - it's unfun to be the preacher as you just pick sus people with little to no feedback that your ability has done anything, and then once you die your effect on the game has been nullified. It's also unfun to get preached as a minion.

There's many other characters that are obvious choices for least favourite but those all have some redeeming qualities for me, like vizier or cult leader, but preacher simply has none

There's a theoretical good preacher script where all the minions are semi-loud and worth bluffing and preacher helps you figure out who the minions are but I haven't seen it

[hollow oasis]

I NEED MY PARANOIA, I WANT MY FRIENDS TO TRUST NO ONE!

It has no good scripts(besides maybe midnight Oasis?)

[iron scarab]

actual peak clocktower. just so cool overall. no notes. stunning

three-way tie between and

[hollow oasis]

nooooooooo wizard

[iron scarab]

jk the best exp role is definitely steward

[iron scarab]

played a few games with it, decided that was enough for life

[hollow oasis]

:(

Not even to have a self destruct button

[iron scarab]

look i like wacky atheist bullshit as much as the next person but i think ive only seen a grand total of one wizard game where average player enjoyment increased due to the wizard’s wish

[hollow oasis]

what were the wishes

[iron scarab]

i have to check

[hollow oasis]

aight

I'm very much going to deeply analyze the ST

[iron scarab]

im not saying the games werent fun, or the STs were bad

i respect them a lot, and they handled it well

only from a design perspective i think you have to be very very strict with what the wizard can or cannot wish for

[hollow oasis]

what were the wishes

[fleet hedge]

Just really silly and fun, I've never had a bad experience with it.

There's two ways to run High Priestess: a really powerful character or "Each night, you learn a random player." The former makes a decent albeit slightly overpowered ability and the latter happens way too often to 'balance' it.

[iron scarab]

”i wish that all TFs gain the PD ability”
“i wish that each day, one member of each alignment can make a wish”
“i wish that everyone chooses their favorite character of their alignment; they become that character”
”i wish that one of the al-had picks secretly lives for one more day” (? i think, the grim reveal didnt get archived)
(can’t remember right now, but something about killed player’s neighbours being poisoned)
“i wish that whoever the ST thinks is having the least fun each day gains a boon”

not verbatim ive forgotten

the last one was fun if i remember

[hollow oasis]

what was the nerf to the first one

[iron scarab]

i dont remember

i think the st helped good a bit with the abilities?

[hollow oasis]

First is op

Second............ it's ST hell

[iron scarab]

that one was pd-wizard so

[hollow oasis]

Third is fun

[hollow oasis]

why

[iron scarab]

game became slightly unwinnable after evil chose 99 killing roles

[hollow oasis]

ah....

(the ST becomes the athiest as a downside lmao)

[lean isle]

The downside of first one was that PD-gained-abilities were only for 1 night.

[iron scarab]

oh ya

thanks

[tardy wyvern]

I really enjoy the potential of having the validity of characters information depends on how many of that character that is, not to mention how free of a bluff VI is

Do I have to say it

[ivory ridge]

holy response

soly many response 🔥

[tardy wyvern]

holy moly roly poly

[shrewd cloud]

Favorite fluctuates a lot but rn I guess Goblin. Such a simple Minion yet one that has a lot of unique social dynamics associated with it. Honorable mentions for me also include Kazali, Shegunja, Marionette, and a couple more

Least favorite is probably Cult Leader. Dishonorable mention for Vizier as well. I have a lot of problems with Cult Leader and how it relies a lot on people actually being willing to form a cult instead of rejecting it out of principle (at which point you are basically a significantly worse Empath)

[foggy grotto]

just run Kenoboi Cult Leader 😎

[ivory ridge]

explain

it's been 30 second with no response

kenoboi hate me confirmed

https://tenor.com/view/sadhamstergirl-gif-4231717927828306245

[foggy grotto]

oh sorry i died

uh

i have a special Cult Leader rule i run

lemme find it

MODIFIED KENOBOI CULT LEADER:

"Each night, you learn the alignment of one of your alive neighbors. If all good players choose to join your cult, you become that alignment and your team wins."

[tardy wyvern]

I think Kenoboi Cult Leader is probably still one of my least favorite characters in the game

It solves exactly one of the four problems I have with Cult Leader

[ivory ridge]

can I double tap you wtf

[foggy grotto]

what are the other 3

i assume one is the time wasted on cults

idk what the other two are

[tardy wyvern]

time wasted on cults, players are extremely unwilling to go for cults at any point of the game

the fourth one i made up for comedic effect

[foggy grotto]

yeah CL is still very problematic i agree

[supple dirge]

The fourth reason you unlock after playing 50 cult leader games in a row

[foggy grotto]

i just wanted to fix the part where it was basically an outsider

[hollow oasis]

the outsideryness is because people don't play for good

which is a skill issue

1.Just play for good

[dense moat]

CL is also funny because it’s much harder to do the Empath part

If you execute a neighbor as an evil CL, you risk losing. You can treat yourself as Empath 1 when you’re good again & you can always bet on killing a Minion

But in addition to slower Empath info, you also are encouraged to not change your neighbors. Fitting for flavor, but rough on playing for good

[hollow oasis]

2.Stop allowing long cults

[dense moat]

Of course, CL is not Empath, so it’s fine that the info bit is weaker

[hollow oasis]

3: have more willing participants

[dense moat]

But I just find it funny that Kenoboi CL can play like a slower Empath when it doesn’t want to bet on a cult

[ivory ridge]

time wasted on cults is not a problem

have you ever play bmr 😭

[tardy wyvern]

it's easily the problem I have that matters the least

cults take wayyy more time than gossips

[cloud plover]

TRUE AND REAL

HP more like hot poo

[ebon idol]

actually I think noble is my favorite experimental, I've decided

Just a really nice blend of starting info that continues to be useful, and you have to keep working on fitting your info into worlds. Nice mix of hard mechanics and socials

[modern plume]

You might like my script Dullahan under the Willows, it has Alchemist as a main focus in the script since it allows an announced Vizier to potentially be either a Townsfolk, an Outsider, a Minion, or the Demon thanks to Boffin.

[digital drum]

Gave +1 Thanks to @dense moat (current: #17 - 1192)

[coarse fern]

is my favorite I don’t think I need to explain

is my least favorite, this does something once in a blue moon and when it doesn’t it’s just loud and clunky and annoying

[pure meadow]

I love “you think you are” characters so much and this one has a lot of silly Shenanigans you can do with it (Im still not over that one game where I was marionetted by a good player as a fellow good player)

Yagga makes me feel oddly aware of what I’m saying and what others are saying in a way that just isn’t very fun for me

[next vault]

my least favourite character is , it is not a townsfolk by any means in its current form and would benefit from a rebalance

[ivory ridge]

@feral snow your time to shine (or just be a boyfailure, either way is a good outcome)

[feral snow]

I’ll refrain

I’m busy cooking

[ivory ridge]

nooooo

this is how i know god do not exist

[feral snow]

Cooking up homebrew

[barren zenith]

YSK to cover for a damsel is something, so it is barely a townsfolk. The issue comes when it adds an outsider ime. Although, I do agree, it needs a buff ngl

[foggy grotto]

a bit hard to do then when you can turn evil at any second

[hollow oasis]

kill your evil neighbors

what's losing when it's all minions anyway

[foggy grotto]

but like

why

[hollow oasis]

because: TF

[ivory ridge]

friend

[foggy grotto]

a TF that requires the player to not want to play for evil in order to be not an outsider is a badly designed townsfolk

[ivory ridge]

just my $.02 but

i dislike using “skill issue, this is how you’re supposed to play” as adequate explanation

even though some characters do change the dynamic enough, but like you’re supposed to weigh risk and reward

[next vault]

Characters I like

Really fun with the right ST
Funny shenanigans, probably better in person. It's also a really cool alt win condition because you have to convince all of town that both of your neighbours are evil, works very well with Mario
Can be more than a "soft oracle", as an ST I like to hear Generals' worlds and say tell them how close they are to the world
I really like that the Outsider-y part isn't just losing, but also that it has to make up info
I really like the idea of an Outsider that can at least get info, it's better than Drunk at least
That Dreamer isn't just the Widow/Spy, it could be the actual demon
A very well designed Demon for more a puzzle, worst best in monodemon with like, characters that deinctivize hardclaims like Pit Hag, Cerenovus...

Character I dislike:

Too polarazing
People love to go on Day 1 where there's very little you can advice
0 evil players 0 outsiders 7 Sober and Healthy Townsfolk with actionable info
Most of the time it's just a blank token
I've havent seen a psycho script in months, it's just very weird and loud, i'd say it's problems are worse than that of the Vizier's
I don't dislike the character but people love to put it with Tea Lady, Sailor... where it doesnt belong

[barren zenith]

I love ogre, I just don't get the hate 😭

[foggy grotto]

same 💪

[fleet hedge]

It's solely a positive ability so long as your ST is half decent

[next vault]

how?

literally how

someone has the damsel token and you only have once chance to choose them

[shrewd cloud]

There’s not a lot of ST agency with Huntsman so also curious how STs can make it much better

Big one is being very cautious about when to add the Damsel as an extra Outsider but otherwise, not sure how you can run it RAW to be much stronger than it is

[next vault]

I never add an outsider with Huntsman

because Huntsman itself is an outsider

[hollow oasis]

Give the bluff the demon is claiming as the townsfolk the huntsman makes

[tardy wyvern]

Huntsman itself is not an Outsider

[next vault]

good luck sniping the damsel

[lean isle]

It doesn't have any negative effect unless it adds an extra Outsider.

[tardy wyvern]

Lleech is so unbelievably ass btw it was an honorable mention for my least favorite

[next vault]

Lleech is swingy

[shrewd cloud]

Lleech’s biggest problem is script building. Scripts can make or break it for sure

[lean isle]

Lleech too often ends up in scripts with characters that are bad with it.

[tardy wyvern]

Lleech on its own is not a horrible idea but it’s so volatile with what it allows on script that it works basically nowhere

[next vault]

[tardy wyvern]

Every single Lleech game I’ve ever ran was pretty bad

[next vault]

is the worst offender in bad Lleech interactions

that and

[tardy wyvern]

Lleech literally anything that swaps roles

[next vault]

Oh yeah

[tardy wyvern]

Which is a fun part of clocktower that this character just cant interact with

[next vault]

moment

[lean isle]

Literally anything that causes Lleech host to change/appear after N1.

[shrewd cloud]

It is deceptively niche in terms of what it works with. I can’t blame people for initially making assumptions about where it works best, but it is unfortunate those assumptions end up being very wrong

[next vault]

Lleech needs to be severely built around

[tardy wyvern]

Lleech works best when it’s the only exe survival on script and even then it’s not fun

[hollow oasis]

Atheist

Use atheist

[shrewd cloud]

Hooray to the completely unsolvable game if the host swaps late

[next vault]

Lleech + DA also works

[fast anchor]

lleech/da is oppressively strong

[tardy wyvern]

“Use Atheist” is not a valid solution to this problem and I think you know that

[fast anchor]

it's not script-breaking but it's really really evil-sided

[shrewd cloud]

I’ve only seen good win one game where Lleech came in late and that was mostly because the Lleech’s socials towards their host were rancid

[hollow oasis]

No seriously

Atheist Lleech is a good combo

[next vault]

why

[tardy wyvern]

You cannot just put Atheist on a script and expect everyone to be okay with it

[hollow oasis]

Atheist doesn’t die

[next vault]

eh it's fine

[hollow oasis]

Lleech has an easy atheist bluff

[next vault]

but i've seen people say

[tardy wyvern]

This is unfun to play around

[shrewd cloud]

That combo seems fine to me though it’s not the solution for every Lleech script

[next vault]

"Any Atheist script is a shit without purpose"

[hollow oasis]

Or the Lleech can claim smth else and spread misinfo until they get exed

[next vault]

which is just wrong

Atheist works in certain scripts

[tardy wyvern]

Okay but there are players and STs who refuse to do Atheist scripts

So “use Atheist” is not a valid solution

[hollow oasis]

True

[next vault]

oh yeah I can understand that

[coarse fern]

Being marionetted as a good player by a good player is unfortunately common

[hollow oasis]

besides that

[tardy wyvern]

and there are players and STs who should be refusing Atheist scripts but don’t

[next vault]

Lleech works well in Mastermind Engine scripts

[hollow oasis]

It’s just too much benefit to pass up

[next vault]

I've built one myself but I think it needs tweaks

[tardy wyvern]

Minuit is the only context I’ve ever seen Lleech in and been like “this is cool actually”

[coarse fern]

It’s literally not benefit I’m confused

[hollow oasis]

A free minion to get info for you

And their hard claim

now it’s double information gained

[coarse fern]

And causes them to doubt their info for no reason, bluff, and not play for good?

[next vault]

Me as Poli when I have 2 Marios and tell them both that it's a PG game

[hollow oasis]

You’re not the demon

It’s like lunatic

[coarse fern]

What

[hollow oasis]

But anyway you tell them “you’re not marionette lol” when you have the info

[tardy wyvern]

they are playing for good. they will be vouching for the execution of anyone other than a good player

[hollow oasis]

No this is if you fake marionette a player as a good player

[modern plume]

This thread giving me ideas for which characters to build around now

Not the ones that are favs, but the ones that are hated.
I need to make good homes for these outcast roles.

[hollow oasis]

A good amount of them go well together

[modern plume]

I did it for Lleech, for Mastermind, for Vizier, for new Alchemist.

And I'll f*cking do it again for something else

[hollow oasis]

Don’t pick Legion

Pick atheist

Atheist is cool

[fast anchor]

Simple, classic, splashable. The day we get Noble 2 is the day scriptbuilders celebrate

Do I really have to say why?

[modern plume]

I wish for you to tell us all why in excruciating detail

[fast anchor]

honorable mentions:

dis-honorable mentions:

[fast anchor]

nope 😁

[fast anchor]

I am dying to see a Quilava Engineer script

[modern plume]

I've had a dumb idea before to try to make Huntsman good, just requires a lot of stupid decisions to go along with it along with an absurd Bootlegger rule.

For a script I had in mind

[ebon idol]

wizard is a great character in theory, horrible in practice, which is a shame because it is cool

[ebon idol]

Who do you dislike FM 👀?

[fast anchor]

"make huntsman good" implies that it's not already a great character 🤨

[ebon idol]

okay great is a stretch

I like it, but it's like, average at best

[fast anchor]

oh it's absolutely weak strength-wise

but I think design-wise it's good

[ebon idol]

not strength wise tbc idc about characters strength

Yeah I'm talking design

[fast anchor]

idk, I feel like it does what it needs to, no more no less

[ebon idol]

strength is kinda missing the point of a lot of characters because characters aren't about what they do for the solve or information, it's what they do for the game 🙂‍↕️

it's why im the biggest steward stan

also calling out the constant cold war battle between the HP haters and HP enjoyers 🙈

[next vault]

HP 007

smh

[modern plume]

On basic analysis, Steward solo cuts somewhere between a third and a fourth of possible worlds from the PoV of the Steward. From Town PoV, the Steward claim eliminates between a fifth and a fourth of possible worlds. It does quite well.

Roles like Seamstress & Steward are called weak because they're being judged on variability rather than consistency.

[fast anchor]

I disagree with any Seamstress slander but for Steward I can kinda see the point

[modern plume]

Artist is just so absurdly good on variability that it can commit to consistency through brute action if it felt so inclined. It just has the option to go for the wild and unlikely to work out questions

[fast anchor]

esp when it's scriptbuilt with like Spy/LM

or Pit-Hag/Fang Gu

[sour harness]

See I agree...

[sour harness]

...but steward breaks it

Steward is just incredibly weak

Because it doesn't actually do that much for the game?

[modern plume]

[sour harness]

And this is too naive of an analysis, botc is filled with misinfo

[modern plume]

My words, they do nothing...

[sour harness]

No no I hear you

I just disagree

[fast anchor]

Me when I'm the Yaggababble and the ST hates me

[sour harness]

If steward had a sober & healthy clause I think it would be really cool

[modern plume]

Trivially, but if you're going to start on an analysis, you start with the basic model, you can't go further without having a specific script in hand

[sour harness]

Sure

Pull up one steward script where it narrows worlds 80% as well

And is also a good script

[modern plume]

Isn't that setting the bar maximally high?

[sour harness]

Is it?

[modern plume]

That's putting Steward to its maximum possible achievable limit

[sour harness]

(I actually don't know i haven't done the math)

[fast anchor]

being a good script is subjective fwiw

[modern plume]

I... just said it was

[sour harness]

Oh no that's a miscommunication then

[modern plume]

A Steward eliminates 20% of worlds in the basic analysis

[sour harness]

80% as good as not having any misinfo

My bad I could've been clearer

[modern plume]

So, asking for that same thing in a general script is asking for peak performance

[sour harness]

Ok I can still be clearer apparently, lemme figure out how

[modern plume]

Mine are all objectively good, what do you mean? /j (not (/j))

[fast anchor]

i've got a script btw but i do want to see if Quil has any that he's thinking of in particular

[ebon idol]

The thing is that steward is best when "I learned this player is good, and there is a low chance this player is evil. I can trust this player, and they are someone I can work with throughout this game"

High misinfo scripts break that

[sour harness]

If a role narrows worlds by a factor of 80% on its own, misinfo will leave some worlds open (specifically the ones where it's wrong). Doing my own math, what I'm asking for is a script where a steward ping after misinfo narrows worlds by a factor of 84% or better

[ebon idol]

So I love steward, I don't like it in misinfo, I don't think that makes it incredibly weak, I think it means ppl need to play and build better scripts

[sour harness]

Which, the numbers can be hand waved somewhat

I'd love to see your ideal steward script too Hannah

[fast anchor]

i mean i was gonna send unfriendly invitations

[ebon idol]

I think it shines in things like solo levi

That script needs and update so bad but ideally yes steward would be great there

[fast anchor]

isn't it already on there? its misinfo is like ND/Drunk and that's it

[modern plume]

Considering I'm a mathematics student, I'm not so eager to simply handwave the numbers 😛

[ebon idol]

It is but the script needs work

[sour harness]

I'm a math student and a game designer, I do both

[fast anchor]

it is also a dashii baron script, yes

[ebon idol]

ignore the fact the script sucks

steward does not suck on here

[sour harness]

Promptly ignoring the rest of the script

[modern plume]

I have Steward on Dullahan, and the only misinfo is Spy, Xaan, and Lleech. (And if you're the Lleech host as Steward, I don't think that's the biggest problem)

[sour harness]

I do have thoughts but I'll shut up about them

[fast anchor]

anyway this was the other script I had in mind

[ebon idol]

yeah that works

[fast anchor]

the d1 misinfo is pukka/widow, one of which has a call and the other of which means you die n2 save lycan/innkeeper

ooh, and Lycan is another interesting dimension because it means you aren't seeing the Faux Paw

[ebon idol]

Like I think there's a difference between "X character is weak/unfun" and "This character is weak unfun in this situation" which is meaningful to how ppl rep steward

[modern plume]

Grandmother & Steward are both interesting with the new Lycan, anything that must see a Good player getting an extra "This isn't the Faux Paw" is a neat little bonus

[ebon idol]

God I do need to work on unfriendly invitations why is baron dashii there

[modern plume]

That said, a poisoned Steward 'correctly' seeing the Faux Paw as a Good player would be an interesting mindscrew

[sour harness]

I don't loooove it with drunk but I see the vision for it here (let's just pretend ogre goes before steward in the night order bc I'm pretty sure it doesn't bc TPI hates me in particular)

[ebon idol]

I don't love it with drunk either yeah

[fast anchor]

ogre goes after every alignment checker iirc

[sour harness]

TPI hates me and wants me to die

[fast anchor]

it's in the same spot as Cult Leader

[ebon idol]

Like drunk steward is much more of a feelsbad than drunk FT

But ND poisoned steward is like, only a tiny bit worse than ND poisoned FT

because "x is evil if y is dashii" is much more concrete in a gameplay sense then "x is good..... or im drunk (sobbing)"

[sour harness]

Widow feels worse than drunk I'm gonna be real

[ebon idol]

I would agree probably

[sour harness]

Also, ogre comment

[ebon idol]

okay I am done defending characters back to my hole

[sour harness]

Real

[sour harness]

Yes but I haven't had a single good experience with it

[fast anchor]

omw to widow poison the steward next game i play with hystrex (the lycanthrope single-handedly finds all the evil players)

[sour harness]

It feels impossible to build in a way that's fun

And have the rest of the script function

[sour harness]

You joke but I would

[modern plume]

I still have an idea for a Wizard script that might make it more fun in text, but does have a Bootlegger rule and also definitely needs to be experimental

[fast anchor]

I don't think wizard's problem is necessarily a medium problem the same way something like Yaggababble is? it's more just the character itself tbh

[modern plume]

Bootlegger rule I had in mind for a script:

Any Amnesiac ability and Wizard wish can only affect the game rules. Any modification to game rules are announced at dawn.

Create a 'Baba is You' like situation where the rules can be altered by the players.

[sour harness]

They're all my children but I'll choose 2 for the question
I'm pretty much convinced that this is the ideal botc character, it's such a clean design
genuinely its only saving grace in my eyes is it's a cool waking pattern for the Chambermaid. Learning evil players outright feels incredibly anti botc/unfun to me, and this isn't how you make a "frontloaded cost + high reward" character in a game where the reward isn't guaranteed

Evil townsfolk is cool and all but can we get that on literally any other character type

[junior knot]

: Saving grace is evil bounty hunter in games [convinces town to execute evils for selfish reasons]

[sour harness]

nvg is axo's homebrew it's fine

BH and PG aren't real characters, neither is Boffin

[dense moat]

what is NVG?

[junior knot]

No Vreater Goy?

[sour harness]

Night-Vision Goggles

(notably not homebrew)

This seems up to date?

Got 2nd place at the final 3 con script competition!!

[ivory ridge]

holy message

[muted crescent]

- It's weak but it's incredibly fun to play as, with, and against
- Even with bad STing aside, the dynamics of this character are incredibly unfun. It's sad because I like characters like and but Atheist existing means that this design space will never have a better alternative

[tardy wyvern]

I'm interested to hear what the link between Atheist, Legion and Mayor you're drawing is

[muted crescent]

oh theyre different links

mayor, a character where you can full trust in someone and win
legion, character with gamewarping dynamics

[naive flame]

Most Favorite:
as much as this is just "oh it's a basic character", it's not. I primarily like how it adds another foster of evil to the Mix in exchange to all evils to be in a line where a single minion info point can lead to chaos in evil or good if played right.

personal hate on it, there's a lot of just personalized encounters with this character that I just FUCKING hate.

[karmic slate]

[@viscid citrus day]: "i was thinkin abt what common clocktower expressions are batshit insane outside our community". What's the best example you can think of?

voila :)

[cold veldt]

holy hell

[viscid citrus]

wow thanks paradox 🦝

[cold veldt]

the meowse...

[karmic slate]

the truth was in the pudding all along

I feel as though goon-drunkenness may take on different connotations
@obtuse pumice

squad my sandwich is a bit wet
@cold veldt but I dont think he quite understood the prompt

[cold veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/i-thought-i-ate-big-pig-becomeanobody-dawg-what-the-hell-are-you-playing-pig-gif-16164058166881632723

[cold veldt]

it was leaking everywhere, good thing i had a plate

[wispy nest]

[??:??] This is a whale buffet game. What character are you going to pick?

[sour harness]

Not even 30 minutes 😭

[sour harness]

Always a fan of "we should kill grandma for science"

[cold veldt]

"you'd be good food for the cannibal"

[karmic slate]

This is why punctuation is important!

"we should kill, grandma, for science!"

[sour harness]

No no

"we should kill grandma, for science!"

[sour harness]

"I am good food for the cannibal" even

[acoustic chasm]

"Are there any virgins in town?"

[ivory ridge]

i also say "friends i'm just a lil virgin" quite a lot

[tidal quiver]

"So [name] definitely killed themself, but who is the new demon?"

[wooden igloo]

Those who pick and is insane. One is a blank TF and other is a Bootlegger.

[karmic slate]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-cat-pissi-twitch-7tv-gif-7223094372649290081

[tacit fiber]

the fact that FyF is played like monthly

[foggy grotto]

“it’s seamin’ time!”

[pseudo fulcrum]

see this is why we put dates on the prompts

to prevent this kind of thing

[honest tide]

“Any Top 4 for a Virgin?”

[supple dirge]

'I'm the virgin but I might be drunk'

[versed junco]

'I visited you last night'

[dense moat]

"We should kill you for science"

[feral snow]

"i don't think i've ever been a sober virgin"

[feral snow]

ah just missed it

"his ass did NOT bounce!" - me, about a Mayor

[next vault]

Is 2+2 4?

[dense moat]

Alternatively, "I just learned 2+2 does not equal 4"

[next vault]

THE BANSHEE... HAS DIED 🗣️ 🔥

[dense moat]

"we need to kill my twin"

[barren zenith]

"I'm the drunk village idiot"

[wispy nest]

“I believe it is a legion town”

[dense moat]

“Uh, I think you’re the Lunatic”

[tidal quiver]

"you're my marionette"

[junior knot]

Don't gossip, you're gonna get someone killed!

[tidal quiver]

"nobody died... there must be a mastermind"

[dense moat]

"Well, there's the Psychopath. Who's good at rock paper scissors?"

[sharp violet]

“I’m good cannibal food”

[muted crescent]

"She's a spent virgin"

[muted crescent]

I got asked this before I picked like

Steward, Knight, Butler, Marionette, Zombuul

[wispy nest]

You can’t pick marionette

But yeah I pick zombuul or riot of the demon

[next vault]

Guys I think you should execute me so I can be eaten by a cannibal

[sharp violet]

Depends on what character type I was assigned
Townsfolk: Clockmaker
Outsider: Zealot
Minion: Poisoner
Demon: Po

[shrewd cloud]

TF - Lycanthrope
Outsider - Puzzlemaster
Minion - Pit-Hag
Demon - Fang Gu (time to dump the responsibility on the unlucky Outsider /s)

[karmic rose]

since I'm currently in a whalebuffet game, have some not-necessarily-number-one picks:

TF - alchemist
Outsider - snitch
Minion - monke
Demon - po
Traveller - matron

[sharp violet]

ooh yes Traveler! My traveler pick would be Beggar

[karmic rose]

"looks like a drunk virgin is just as good as a sober one!"

said at grim reveal after a game where the SW nominated the drunk virgin and was promptly executed for it

[naive flame]

Xyz once said "I'll bang your interrno" (or smt like that)

[naive flame]

In a whalebuffet game aswell rn( #1371949365006045265 l

Townsfolk: Alchemist
Outsider: Ogre
Minion: Vizier/Widow
Demon: Imp/Lleech

[supple dirge]

Lycanthrope, Ogre, Mastermind, Lord of Typhon, Voudon

[coarse fern]

Lycan
Golem
Pit hag
ND

[iron scarab]

ok but hear me out

TF: Steward
Outsider: Butler
Minion: Pit-Hag
Demon: LoT
Traveller: Butcher

[coarse fern]

Butler 🔥

[honest tide]

TF: Shugenja
O: Butler
Minion: Wizard
Demon: Riot
Traveler: Matron

[next vault]

Chambermaid
Politician
Wizard
Fang Gu
Judge

[ebon idol]

funni

[tacit fiber]

[fast anchor]

T - Investigator (someone else will go clockmaker 🙏)
O - Tinker
M - Organ Grinder
D - Fang Gu

[sharp violet]

I was the one that went Clockmaker

[sour harness]

Clockmaker
Ogre (seems fun idk)
Cerenovus
Leviathan and I sure hope there's no killing roles

[worldly jasper]

...don't think about it too hard

[pure meadow]

Ah yes the lunatic, my favourite demon

…i don’t know why I didn’t even think twice about drunk being the townsfolk

[ivory ridge]

i love gambling

but like, whalebuffet game are rarely fun

so if i'm just trying hard & lock in

[torpid mist]

Based

T:
O:
M:
D:

[gusty bear]

T:
O:
M:
D:

[tidal quiver]

TOMD? just one letter off from Tomb? Specs and spoilers is eating good tonight

[supple dirge]

What did steven medway mean by this

[fleet hedge]

Maybe the Tomb has the new character type

Which begins with B

Boxes

[tidal quiver]

T: farmer
O: lunatic
M: mastermind
D: alhad

yeah TT won't have demons, instead it has beemons, which are like demons, but they buzz >:)

[pure meadow]

T:
O:
M:
D:

[fleet hedge]

Lord of Hive

Al-Honeykia

[pure meadow]

Al hadbeekhia

[pseudo fulcrum]

Bemon

[pseudo fulcrum]

aw dammit

[junior knot]

T:
O:
M: /
D:

OR:
T:
O:
M:
D:

[fleet hedge]

T:
O:
M:
B: 🐝

[fast anchor]

why the fuck are you picking ojo in a whalebucket game you're gonna miss

[ivory ridge]

i can't believe this is the respond i get from the ojowall writer 😔

[cyan reef]

depends on how open people are being with their characters

best value you could probably hope for though is to miss and get the ST to kill two weak kills to sell certain worlds

but it's a bit of a niche scenario

[junior knot]

just make sure every possible subset of minions includes at least 1 grimpeeker

[cloud plover]

[cloud plover]

Everybody knows optimal demon strategy is to let ST take the wheel and pray

Then when you lose you can blame them instead

[versed junco]

To make sure no one has the most fun roles 😈

[wispy nest]

Tb lover

[karmic rose]

this has ended, so: my actual TF pick was

[5/29] what's the weirdest modification you've made to clocktower? did it work?

[sour harness]

3 player fishbucket with all fableds and 10 travelers

I mean it was definitely memorable

[tardy wyvern]

Not me but two of my friends ran an All Amnesiac game that featured an underworld. Players would go to the Underworld when they died in the Overworld (was just a different room and people within rooms were not allowed to communicate)

It like, kinda almost worked. Would have been a lot more fun if it wasn’t an amnesiac game

[lone spire]

Ooooh, kinda similar to the above by Dell but also different: I modified Clocktower to have a Two Rooms and a Boom-like structure where players can travel across two towns over the course of 5 days and the Boomdandy and Mayor play the role of Bomber and President. Ran two sessions at Final Three Con and it worked much better than expected, here's my rule sheet: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YmUflnGJeFXV8_8ONv0fHzYXuNqh4kGK7aPsro0MQLI/edit?usp=sharing

[tacit fiber]

4 player clocktowr

3 outsiders

1 demon

it kinda actually works

[pure meadow]

I love how much of the chaos this doesnt even mention while still being wild by itself

[honest tide]

I played a 4 player game of clocktower where the idea was that it was a 12 player leviathan game setup and that each player could swap seats with any “player”. The goal was to either get all the players on the good team and kill the demon or get on the evil team and win solo (or duo or trio but you get my meaning)

Oh and at the start of each day you’d learn how many total swaps had been used

[zenith lotus]

oh look its musical chairs

[honest tide]

Yeah musical chairs

[zenith lotus]

stormcaught CL, but also it was explicitly stated that CL had to be in play, so we just never went for the CL win and got a 50 50 in f3

[sour harness]

I still need to run my megagame idea where all 3 b3 scripts are going on in tandem and you win if your alignment wins the bo3

Also there are travelers

[next marlin]

this was livetext right, I remember that

iirc the ST thought stormcatcher worked that way

[zenith lotus]

it was an added bootlegger rule

im pretty sure

[karmic rose]

your roles are random per game, right? so if you're outed evil by accident you aren't just cooked in the other 2 games

[sour harness]

Yeah each player only has 1 character

(if you pulled demon, good, good, then you just throw the game where you're the demon and that's no fun)

[karmic rose]

ohh I understand now ok

[sharp violet]

Not my creation but similar to this: someone on another Clocktower server made it so there’s 2 separate games going at once, but only 1 of them has a Demon (the other has an extra Minion) and players can Travel between both games under certain conditions, we’re still trying to figure out how to not have it be extremely Good-sided
(The last play test had 1 town figure out that the Demon had to be in the other town and had never moved, but the entire evil team moved to the other town and took it over - but when 1 game would end instead both games get combined into 1 mega-game and when that eventually happened Evil got destroyed since the other town was able to figure out exactly who the Demon was)

[lone spire]

Take a look at mine if you need some ideas - my balancing involved making demons extremely hard to kill (leviathan zombuul) and putting in a tie breaker.

[supple dirge]

The most out there game I've ran was tb and snv at the same time. Based on how I've seen etradies run it at the DC con. All players had 2 characters, games didn't interact with each other except by death. It was a full 15 player game and so much to keep track of and handle each night but it was so much fun. It worked great.

[pseudo fulcrum]

Similar to others, I have played 3 player clocktower and it was great

If others want to play, the script is:
Steward
Snake Charmer
Mayor
Drunk
Mutant
Imp
(Set-up: 1 TF, 1 Out, 1 Demon)

[minor pier]

Definitely my all amne scripts. Can't talk about most because some are still being worked on and haven't been played with, but all amne is the format I like to get weird with.

[ivory ridge]

Too many of the new player in our club were introduced via "Schizophrenia". It's a Teensy for 3 where each person occupied two seat (naturally, this mean demons and minions know each other)

I actually don't know if this is an established game mode or is it just, our club thing

because no one ever play it 😭

[tidal quiver]

Livetext will finally get to play 12p that way

[ivory ridge]

not possible

[sour harness]

I've ran oops all revpairs like this

4 people playing an 8 player TB game

[tacit fiber]

TB isn’t the greatest for this tbf

[sour harness]

It's familiar and has no extra evils

[tacit fiber]

I do think that is oops all revpais is the best way to do 4 and people should stop doing other bs

[sour harness]

Just don't expect a serious game and it goes fine

[tacit fiber]

UT confirms good players, so does RK

[sour harness]

I mean first of all people can like what they like

*fabled revolutionary

[low burrow]

Revolutionary

2 neighboring players are known to be the same alignment. Once per game, 1 of them registers falsely.

[sour harness]

No it doesn't

Not when everyone can misreg

[tacit fiber]

but it never works :( (this is fair)

[tacit fiber]

ig

[sour harness]

One of the games I ran of it had zero true info

[tacit fiber]

also empath’s balance doesn’t really work when one side is confirmed

[sour harness]

Only because it was a particularly silly night

[sour harness]

Hey don't worry about it :3

[tacit fiber]

bestie just make a revpairs script 😭

[sour harness]

There was no intent of making the game "good"

[hollow oasis]

[hollow oasis]

Look I removed the GF heretic hatejinx for smth

[foggy grotto]

5/31

caption this to make it a clocktower meme

[junior knot]

When my heart wants a red token, but my hands keep finding blue ☹️

[hollow oasis]

It's whalebuffet

I decided to go alchwizard

[wispy nest]

When I want to turn evil, but spirit of ivory is on script

[sour harness]

Just replace "cursed amulet" every time it appears with "townsfolk speak in accents"

[fast anchor]

whalebuffet

[supple dirge]

Wizard asked for the pacifist ability

[viscid citrus]

:paradox:

[fast anchor]

oh my god

[foggy grotto]

we need moonchild for amulet

[sour harness]

This is so good 😭

[junior knot]

Okay wait Is Cursed amulet the Mez Word? and the other players are the full evil team?

[fast anchor]

owladin reblogged this post im winning

[cedar sky]

I have lost a part of my humanity.

(things are as color coded as they can be)

[zenith lotus]

you're insane

love the assassin bit

[cedar sky]

Stole it from a different one of these images I saw

[cedar sky]

I feel insane

[feral snow]

I hate that I understand this

[cedar sky]

Same and I made the damn thing

I should have stopped at 0 of them.

You can notice the timeline by how obscure the colors get

I started with moonchild, wizard, "advice" for fisherman...

[hollow oasis]

that makes sense

ngl

[cedar sky]

I finished with off-yellow for vortox and slightly odd orange for amne

Can someone just say that I won so I feel complete and then never let me do this again

[ivory ridge]

you miss one.

[cedar sky]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
PLEASE NO

Where

What did I miss

[ivory ridge]

that’s for you to figure out

[cedar sky]

I see what you're doing, and I won't fall for it (proceeds to look over the image like 8 more times)

[zenith lotus]

it was in a previous version of this whole thing

[cedar sky]

OH NO I SEE IT

SHIT

WITCH

HOLD ON

[ivory ridge]

lol

[cedar sky]

Added

Another thing added

[zenith lotus]

lol

[cedar sky]

Yall did I win?

[zenith lotus]

definitely

whatever it takes for you to regain your sanity

[karmic slate]

@prisma nacelle

[junior knot]

[6/1]: How do you (personally) evaluate characters for their strengths among their type? What do you look for? What do you measure?

[coarse fern]

Similarity to lycanthrope

[ebon idol]

I don’t

[hollow oasis]

For townsfolk

It’s “Consistently helpful/How helpful on average”

Bounty hunter breaks even(effectively blank)

Slayer is less than a knight ping or insta win

[versed junco]

Could I beat them in a fight

[ivory ridge]

like, powerscaling?

[junior knot]

Yeah

Within types

[pseudo fulcrum]

I often compare them to similar characters which are generally agreed to be balanced, and if it's an equal side-grade then that character is also balanced

Which is why Steward and Knight are fine

Because both are equal side grades of Washerwoman, Grandmother and each other which are all fine

[cedar sky]

Do they seem cool? Awesome. Do they seem lame? :(

[fast anchor]

seconding the "I don't"

it's more vibe judgement than anything to be entirely honest

sometimes a character works with a certain evil team and has fun interactions with it as well as with fellow good characters; sometimes it just gets hardcountered; sometimes it utterly destroys evil

[karmic rose]

slayer can be on par with a knight ping if the slayer has some ability to hold their shot

[shrewd cloud]

For Outsiders, I think of the “strongest” as the ones that are the most harmful for good on average since the point of Outsiders is to be detrimental

And for all character types, when thinking about their general strength, I generally assume the character is on a script that works for it. Like Gossip for example is mad OP on scripts with no death mod, but if I were ranking it, I’d rank it in the context of BMR and other scripts with death mod

[muted crescent]

Honestly the only time I really judge characters

Is when they block future design space because of the no "strictly better" rule

[feral snow]

The more I compare characters to each other the more I realize it’s a bad idea. Sure, it’s not a lie to say that a Clockmaker gets objectively more helpful information than a Steward just about every time. But if some characters are stronger or weaker than others in a vacuum, who cares? This game will never ever be played in a vacuum because it always depends on the script. A Vortox on BMR does fuck all, whereas it’s much more damaging on SnV. Even there, Vortox is admitted by TPI to be the “weakest” Demon on SnV, but that’s fine. It’s not there to be super powerful and busted. It’s there to make everyone rethink the way the script is played. Regardless of how powerful or scary it is, Vortox is the defining SnV character and you hear its name way more often than any other Demon there.

The only time I really take value in comparing characters is if one is completely contained within another. For example, Artist can get exactly the same information Seamstress can and more. Artist in particular is bad about this because it’s just versatile free-form information, but it’s the reason “better Nightwatchman” is a joke in the homebrew channels. I’m okay with sidegrades (Knight vs FT for example) because those change the way you play them. Just because Sage and Ravenkeeper are both Demon banes doesn’t mean one is strictly better than another one. It’s okay if some characters are more or less powerful because it just doesn’t matter. The most important part is just making the script work. I call out Artist because it’s versatile enough to contain a lot of different characters, and can get all sorts of facts whenever it’s needed, just like how the Occultist can learn one fact during the game.

[ivory ridge]

biggest yapper ever

[feral snow]

Keep reading

[ivory ridge]

i finish reading it

[feral snow]

Did you like the ending

[junior knot]

I think i might need to clarify the question a bit more: like when you're deciding between two minions to add to a script, for example, and you want people to second guess nominations, how do you compare Goblin, Witch, Fearmonger for how they fit on that scipt? like what factors do you look at?

[ivory ridge]

i pretend it do not exists

[cyan reef]

this reminds me of so many infuriating post-new character reveal discussions that happened on this server lol

[prisma nacelle]

Picking Alchemist Mezepheles and giving someone else the word is very funny

[cyan reef]

especially the ones judging a character based off of a whopping one hour of public game play

[honest tide]

For this example in specific it’s a change in a couple things. Fearmonger and goblin are similar in that they change their voting whether you hear something (either a FM ping from the ST or a goblin claim from the nominee). While witch (and I suppose to a lesser extent fear monger) effect how likely noms are to happen. They all do very different things to scripts so I wouldn’t consider power very much when deciding which goes on the script

[torpid mist]

I think the answer to that specific question lies in the truth of scriptbuilding that a lot of things don't work. Character interactions form a complex web that has massive potential to form knots where there should not be any – once you know an archetype of what you want, the question then becomes "okay, which characters that fit this archetype don't work on this script" and by process of elimination you'll find the one that does (or that none do)

[honest tide]

More generally I’d say that I look at the amount of droisoning (specifically from the evil side) I have and determine the strength of the roles based on how easily they find evil and often more specifically the demon. Mechanical roles are harder to determine and often depend on the strength of the other characters on script (mayor gets a lot better with characters like snarmer, dreamer, and the homework roles because if they’re confirmed not evil then it’s extremely powerful)

[torpid mist]

Consequently, power levels are only moderately relevant for customs because you can't usually afford to make power level a criterion

[feral snow]

“Wait this is just better _!”
No. It’s not even close. Give it like a month and you’ll be fine

In the YouTube comments of the Kazali reveal game half the comments said it was the strongest demon ever (specifically because of the outsider mod) and half the comments said it was the worst demon ever

[feral snow]

I think they serve different purposes and deciding which is best depends on the script and your intention.

Fearmonger makes you distrust the nominator. If you distrust the player nominating, only execute if you think the nominee is evil too.

Goblin makes you distrust the nominee. It’s a “get off me” card that makes players hesitant to push through a vote, and forces good to spend more time figuring out whether they’re a Minion or Demon. This wastes time and info.

Witch destroys information. You need to nominate if you want to execute, but no one wants to be the nominator in case they die and lose their ability. While you can sort of bypass this by having spent players nominate, they may not be good and if they die, it can still lose a day or two.

[sour harness]

When evaluating a townsfolk, I judge it against other similar characters. If it's a YSK, how does it compare to other YSKs? If it's OPG info, is it a little weaker than a YSK but able to get stronger over time? What about EN characters? What can they learn every day? Will they glean new information each and every single in game day? An example of this is the Occultist, which learns something new every day but is mad that they learn something new every day.

[sour harness]

Wait I saw a sqwall and went for the bit, I didn't realize you beat me to it lol

[feral snow]

I love making an impact on this community

[sour harness]

Each and every day

Just like the gets shot and does not live

[versed junco]

huh. didn't think that slayer shot'd work.

[modern plume]

There's a number of factors that can be considered and which I love to consider when building. It's easy to just shrug off with the idea of 'it doesn't matter', but when considering roles it's a lot of fun to consider the vast array of metrics of power. One mistake I see often is judging Artist as blatantly more powerful than the Seamstress and thus rendering any such analysis pointless, but it simply judges a singular metric (variability) as the only one worth considering but then disregarding it.

There's lots of factors to consider. For Good characters, you have

• Entropy
• Variability
• Informational Impact
• Informational Connectivity

Entropy measures how probable events are. Sure, Artist can ask whatever it wants, but many questions do awful in this. An Artist, for example, could try to be an Alsaahir and guess the entire Evil Team. If they get a YES, that's absurdly great... but the vast, vast majority of games, it gets a NO and doesn't provide much value. Information that deviates further from balanced probabilities among its answers leads to less valuable information in terms of entropy, as you're more likely to get information consistent with the larger pool of worlds. By contrast, Seamstress is virtually perfect on Entropy. On 10 players for example, the probability that a Seamstress picked two players on the same team is 50%, which maximizes entropy! In all the worlds where the Seamstress isn't poisoned, they immediately eliminate half of all such worlds no matter what. On other player counts, it's also quite close to 50/50 as well.

Variability is also another metric, how much power does it have to choose the type of information it wants to get? As well, how well can a character more variable information? Artist is downright the best role at this, but others like Savant also do fantastic at this.

Informational Impact is also another metric; if a specific event occurs or doesn't, does the character immediately know more about the game state in a direct and clear manner? On Trouble Brewing if the Soldier dies at night, they immediately know, without a doubt, that either there's a Poisoner or they are the Drunk, both of which interact with a plethora of information potentially present. The Tea Lady witnessing a neighbor of theirs die in BMR also knows immediately that either they were poisoned by a Pukka or Innkeeper, a neighbor is Evil, or there's an assassin. Acrobat simply surviving knows either they were protected and the target was droisoned, both them and the target were droisoned, or the target wasn't droisoned. If the Virgin gets someone executed in TB, the Virgin is hard confirmed and the executed person is either a Townsfolk or the Spy!

Then there's Informational Connectivity, how good is the character in combination with other characters. On SnV alone there's a lot of roles that are perfect at doing this such as Clockmaker + Town Crier, Clockmaker + Flowergirl, Seamstress + Town Crier. The information they receive combines to demand more together, either working to deduce additional information neither directly gave or refuting possibilities and introducing information conflict; Evil has to be aware of what they say when bluffing, since a bad Town Crier bluff might conflict with Clockmaker information. Mathematician alone is great at Connectivity, since it counts every abnormality. Savant also can achieve great Connectivity, linking unrelated information together and intertwining itself with other roles.

It's easy to shrug off some characters by only judging it under one metric, like some people do to Seamstress when compared to Artist. Just because Artist is so obscenely good at Variability that it can brute force the other categories doesn't mean Seamstress is weak; Seamstress is among the best Entropy characters, and high Information Connectivity with other alignment related roles.

[hollow oasis]

your slayers have trigger discipline? damn

[honest tide]

I have only seen one day 1 slayer shot

That was real

Plenty of joke ones tho

[modern plume]

I had a Day 1 Slayer shot in a game I ran that was successful

With the caveat that it was

• A Recluse with a Boffin's Slayer ability granted by an Alchemist-Boffin... and the Recluse shot themself

[honest tide]

Oh I have seen a few more than this but those were on recluses lmao

[modern plume]

The meme potential of self shooting Recluse was too good to pass up

[karmic slate]

Gnomegeddon 😖

[austere steppe]

I agree with this, though I tend to compare them against their character type instead, huntsman is out classed by every townsfolk in and golem outclasses every other outsider by quite a margin. Both of these are such outliers that they almost slip into the power level of other character types (huntsman>outsdier, golem >tf for example.

Where I do get a little irate is when there are 3 of the same character on a scripts, i.e chef, clockmaker, shuj. All of these are N1 abilities that say 'evil is sitting here', with varying degrees of power. Its rare that a script should call for that level of redundancy.

[feral snow]

I fully disagree with Huntsman being the weakest (it’s fairly weak on most customs I’ll give you that, but I think it has its place and that place is heretic scripts). Same but opposite for golem. Its loud confirmation has a pretty hefty downside attached. They’re very clearly in their correct character type.

Regardless, they both have places where they shine so again it’s unreasonable to compare them in a vacuum

[modern plume]

I'm wondering why you're asking about 'comparing them in a vaccum'. Any power assessment is based on relationships between the things being compared, to compare 'in a vacuum' appears simply contradictory?

[fleet hedge]

An underappreciated advantage of Seamstress over Artist is that it's a N1 math ping

But generally an Artist asking "Are X and Y both good?" tends to outshine Seamstress

As the Seamstress yes on two evils is it's slight weakness

[sour harness]

I think it's the comparison of just those two characters, rather than comparing them to each other within the context of a script that contains both

[austere steppe]

Thats almost exactly the opposite of what I said. It doesn't really matter whether or not you think there are places where the huntsman shines, or the golem has more downside than good. They are among the weakest and strongest of their class. To better illustrate, would town be stronger (win more or solve easier or w.e) if ANY other townsfolk was swapped for a huntsman on any script. The answer is likely yes.
Likewise, would town be weaker (more likely to lose, harder to solve or w.e) if golem was swapped for ANY other outsider? The answer is also yes.
Heck, put it even a better way, lets thought experiment 2x1000 games on this server. In one set every time a player would have pulled a huntsman, they instead pulled a golem (as a townsfolk so no outsider count shenanigans). Would good win more with this change? Almost assuredly.

With that being said, there is use for differing power level amongst character types. Being able to swap a clockmaker for a Shuj because you want a slightly weaker town is perfect for dialing in script wide balance.

[modern plume]

To be fair, a Golem can also effectively deal with a Damsel

[austere steppe]

I just don't think the damsel needs to be dealt with. Sure, I've had more games with damsel guesses than fearmonger wins, but not by any large factor.

[cyan reef]

the answer to those questions are "it depends"

lack of a Huntsman on a script, for example, makes Damsel that much more difficult for the good team

the fact of the matter is each character has their upsides/downsides, and replacing them with a different character that has different upsides/downsides aren't a 1 to 1 swap

I'm actually kind of amazed how much Huntsman still tends to be so fundamentally misunderstood

[dense moat]

Honestly, I’m not that great at script building or understanding how characters work on scripts I’ve built

However, I would say that I try to approach power level as a function of a script, not a character

To use a blunt example, Scarlet Woman is fine on TB, but would be super strong on Leviathan, as good has to kill both

[austere steppe]

The damsel doesn't need a solution the same way the klutz and the mutant don't need solutions. They all out play out perfectly fine in a "outsiders should hide to obfuscate outsider count" kinda way. Thus if damsel is perfectly fine without a huntsman, and not even any better with one, I don't think there is any misunderstanding, its just bad.

[austere steppe]

Agreed. I quite love a single demon script with a pit hag. The pit hag is so strong normally, but with that limitation they drop in power level quite a bit.

[cyan reef]

"Thus if damsel is perfectly fine without a huntsman, and not even any better with one"

this is the misunderstanding

[austere steppe]

I struggle to recall a single game where I've thought "Man I wish we had a huntsman to help this damsel out"

[cyan reef]

I've ran several games where a Damsel had trouble hiding and having a Huntsman around to help run interference would have been quite useful

the confirmation alone can be valuable

[austere steppe]

A grandmother and/or a librarian can/could do that just fine, without adding an outsider? The damsel could just die? Like from a script perspective, there are other roles that do the job better of 'town knowing there is a damsel in play' and town has the tools to deal with it by just killing the damsel.

[hollow oasis]

Actually I think I know

Uh

A ton of people happen to be cowards about damsel guessing

[sour harness]

huntsman means evil cant just wait forever until the demon is on the block

[cyan reef]

Huntsman doesn't add an Outsider unless the ST adds it in...this is further evidence of the misunderstanding

[sour harness]

it adds time pressure

[cyan reef]

Grandmother is much harder to fit on a script

Librarian has no direct interaction with a Damsel

this just kind of makes it like that if there are two characters that do anything similar at all, then we don't need one of them

[austere steppe]

That is not evidence. The people participating in this conversation KNOW that. It is understood. The fact that it can or cannot do that helps evil by allowing vaguery around the outsider count.

[cyan reef]

even though Clocktower is full of characters like that

so you..purposefully made a point that wasn't useful? I don't get it

[hollow oasis]

Metaing ST to not do stupid things is uh

Ok

Like, yeah

You should be able to

[dense moat]

To , I have seen Storytellers do that before in non B1 games

it does happen, even if tit is ultimately on the Storyteller

[feral snow]

To be clear, this is what I mean about comparing them in a vacuum. I call out scripts where they shine specifically because it’s not fair to say “this character is so awful and bad” when out of its best environment. It’s the fish climbing a tree thing again. Imagine if the only script we had was BMR and TPI released the Vortox. People would think it was the worst character ever made. It doesn’t have an environment to thrive.

I won’t deny that Huntsman doesn’t have its best place yet, but saying it’s undoubtedly the worst Townsfolk and should be an Outsider is both false and goes against what it means to be an Outsider.

[cyan reef]

it's not that there aren't STs who do it...it's just that normally to discuss a character, there has to be a sort of assumption that they're running a character competently, otherwise most of this game breaks down as early as Trouble Brewing

[feral snow]

Once again, this would help good in its best environment

[hollow oasis]

I mean worst case scenario huntsman is undroisonable steward

[cyan reef]

it's really a bedrock of good script building...how good or bad a character is depends on its script and the other characters on it

[hollow oasis]

Huntsman isn’t like, great

[cyan reef]

funny enough, even in Extension Cord where maybe a Huntsman is actually the Marionette, they will know that there's a Damsel

[feral snow]

Outsider mod isn’t strictly a buff in nerf

[hollow oasis]

It’s kind of just a combination of QoL features, and on the right script it gains more

[austere steppe]

What? My point is that the huntsman is bad at the job its intended to do. It adds wiggle room to the outsider count, which is the cornerstone of any town solve. It only knows there is a particular outsider in play, which other townsfolk do better, so thats not a win, and its ability is once per game, in a game where there are minions and can counterplay to their hearts content. The point is that if you change the huntsman to any other townsfolk, good get stronger. 100%.

[feral snow]

On a heretic script, good wants to obscure the outsider mod. This is what I mean about it wanting particular environments

[cyan reef]

my point is that your arguments aren't really valid

[feral snow]

On a heretic script, huntsman does a lot of helpful things for good

[hollow oasis]

Heretic makes Huntsman have enough Quality of Life features to be great

That’s the only scenario huntsman should really be outsider mod

[cyan reef]

the "Outsider mod" point, which you claim isn't something you misunderstand, is something that continues to be not relevant...Huntsman being "bad at the job its intended to do" doesn't seem like it has any actual weight behind it

there even seemed to be some admission that there is in fact confirmation with the Huntsman

[austere steppe]

Man you are really reaching

[cyan reef]

this does not seem to be behaving in good faith tbh

[feral snow]

No I’m with Sam on this one. Huntsman inherently has value and saying it’s an outsider is objectively false

[hollow oasis]

Huntsman is not the weakest townsfolk in the game always

[dense moat]

?

[hollow oasis]

It’s not an outsider at the very least

[dense moat]

I assume?

[hollow oasis]

Cult Leader is a good role

[feral snow]

There is never an objective weakest

That’s my take on this

[hollow oasis]

[feral snow]

It’s why comparing is silly (in the context of strength)

[cyan reef]

this is the important point

[dense moat]

...how many Storytellers do you know taht are giving the Alchemist the Mez ability?

[austere steppe]

Yeah I dont think you are, that is accurate

[cyan reef]

using Extension Cord as an example, if I change out Huntsman, the script changes significantly

[dense moat]

Like, you dont even have the excuse of it being not in play anymore

[feral snow]

Too many (any number more than 0)

[hollow oasis]

I know at least 1

[cyan reef]

no need to be an ass

[dense moat]

(i thought we were arguing with the assumption STs are running competently)

[hollow oasis]

I mean in a weakest TF competition it’s alch mez

[feral snow]

I mean if we’re gonna compare stuff we need to consider every possibility

[hollow oasis]

or

[austere steppe]

back when it was 'not in play minion ability' even this would have had some value

[hollow oasis]

Extra evil is extra evil

[feral snow]

? It just turns itself evil

[hollow oasis]

It’s not helping good

[dense moat]

thats a player and a scriptbuilder choice.

Its the players fault for doing that or scriptbuilder for enabling it

or even ST for pickinga script with players they know will do taht

[feral snow]

That doesn’t mean it’s not a possibility

[hollow oasis]

Ooh wait

[feral snow]

That being said I do think we should be considering the character in its entirety and not just a subset of it

[austere steppe]

Oh yeah, 9/10 thats what they do. But if they dont, town knowing there is no mez in play is pretty good info.

[hollow oasis]

Fair

Maybe like

[feral snow]

The issue is more just that there’s no reason to not say the word yourself

[austere steppe]

Bountyhunter has the same issue, except the ST choses, and in the worst timelines the ST choses the BH and everyone is angsty

[feral snow]

Even if you want to be good someone else might say it

[feral snow]

Yes and this is why no one likes BH self evil

[hollow oasis]

Maybe like

… no that requires bad STs

[cyan reef]

yeah, honestly these are good comparisons to why "Huntsman can add Damsel so therefor it's bad" never holds up

[hollow oasis]

Hmm

[cyan reef]

(even if it's something Ben would do in a NRB video lol)

[feral snow]

I think it’s not unreasonable to assume the ST is competent because Sailor and Paci would be right at the bottom otherwise

[hollow oasis]

I saw that video

[feral snow]

Ben went for context over quality there I think

[cyan reef]

and in fact, they regularly are at the bottom when ran not well, lol

[hollow oasis]

It was poppygrower but still

[cyan reef]

yeah...I disapprove of these kinds of decisions lol

but alas

so many people have taken the wrong lessons from the NRB videos

[feral snow]

Agreed but it’s the nature of entertainment

[feral snow]

Oh yes

Too many

[hollow oasis]

Yea

Mostly “speedrun into playing customs, B3 isn’t very interesting”

[cyan reef]

and I'll be real with you all, there are places and groups of people where their view of how Clocktower is discussed and thought about and ran online is not a pleasant one

[hollow oasis]

Seen those places

[cyan reef]

it's often why TPI are sometimes surprised to come online and see, "Oh, there are people who don't like this one character?"

[hollow oasis]

app lobbies

Look you have to be selective but good ones will be good

[cyan reef]

well, I'm talking more like, old school Storytellers

[hollow oasis]

Oh you mean like

[cyan reef]

who like see the game change significantly, how the game is thought about, and overall not for the better

[hollow oasis]

Hate new-age Clocktower

[cyan reef]

not exactly "new-age"

[feral snow]

There’s a large group of players in my group that hate BMR and it’s only recently clicked for me that every single one of them is like 4 years older than me and hate it because they don’t know how to run it

[cyan reef]

but, I mean, I'll be blunt, this Huntsman conversation would have been a good example

[feral snow]

I gotta write that blog

It’s on huntsman and other controversial characters

[cyan reef]

yes, I have seen a lot of people slowly change their mind about BMR over the last few years

[hollow oasis]

Teach them how to run it?

[feral snow]

I’m trying so hard

Most of them have graduated and left

But I’m teaching the new guard

[hollow oasis]

Thank god but like(it’s too slow)

[cyan reef]

to this day people in my group still joke about BMR lasting 3 hours even though my games don't run more than 2 hours (and usually closer to 90 minutes)

[feral snow]

My group was shocked that I said I could run a 15p game in under 2 hours

[hollow oasis]

You know what I don’t get

5 minute days

[feral snow]

Like that’s the recommended time

[cyan reef]

I ran my 10 player in person TB games starting with 3 minutes before calling people back to their seats and it worked beautifully

for one of the games, the difference between evil winning and good winning was literally that town didn't have 20 more seconds to discuss it out

[feral snow]

This is what I strive for

I’m happy when I call players back and they complain

[hollow oasis]

I wish to play BMR with y’all

[cyan reef]

because it was only after the last good player nominated the Minion that they pieced together that the Monk was really the Demon who had sunk a kill

[feral snow]

Time is a resource and a property of info in this game

[hollow oasis]

But alas

Kind of stuck to the public app mines

[cyan reef]

anywho, I think of conversations I've had about things like, not liking Travelers, or (somewhat paradoxically) craving 12 player counts so hard that a 13th player will traveler

[hollow oasis]

I mean

[feral snow]

I love 13p

[hollow oasis]

I don’t like traveller design, but travellers as a concept is ok

[cyan reef]

or seeing how common metas are where people do 3 for 3s and horde information with a small group, excluding others, then wait until final 3 to out everything

[feral snow]

It’s 3 minions with as little chaos as possible

[feral snow]

Ugh I get so mad when I explain the game to new players and my veterans explain 3 for 3s

No

Let them learn strategy

[cyan reef]

this game is great, but tbh it can be so much better

[hollow oasis]

Like fixing fearmonger

[cyan reef]

Fearmonger is meh but fine

[hollow oasis]

Selfnom meta isn’t even damaging to town

[cyan reef]

well, it is, and this would be another good example of a conversation that a lot of old school people would, and do, find to be appalling

[hollow oasis]

It’s just like

[feral snow]

Fearmonger is one of controversial ones that needs a script

[hollow oasis]

Even if you don’t want to die

Nom yourself anyway

[cyan reef]

like, the idea that there are people think that such a "forced" self nomming meta is both effective and also appropriate is just sad

[hollow oasis]

And get people to not vote

[cyan reef]

same with self guessing Damsels

[hollow oasis]

My problem with fearmonger is that blocking noms

[cyan reef]

I'm lucky enough to run groups and play in groups where people aren't even considering this

[hollow oasis]

Is uh

Not a great thing

[cyan reef]

it's certainlly not great but also the lesser of two evils

the ideal scenario is just simply have a group who won't behave this way

which can be cultivated

[hollow oasis]

Just wish they’d change it to “if you nominate yourself you win”

As well but alas

[cyan reef]

that might work

like, don't get me wrong, if there's an effective way to make it not desirable for those who think it for some reason would be and doesn't break anything, then I'm all for that

but otherwise it's not necessary

[hollow oasis]

I just feel like more roles shouldn’t need to be acquired tastes

Especially when there’s a ton of roles with what are effectively “anti-cheese clauses”

(DA’s only being able to pick alive players for Zombuul for instance)

[cyan reef]

I think most of MHD will be an "acquired taste" lol

[dry sluice]

I'm fine with roles like Yaggababble being an "acquired taste," but expecting players to not use an unfun optimal strategy is just bad design

[feral snow]

Oh yes

[dry sluice]

When you could instead change the character to eliminate it

[cyan reef]

but that goes back to the point that it's not even optimal

[feral snow]

I think all the expansions will be in their own way

[cyan reef]

though tbh this game design in general assumes people aren't trying to "optimize" the game in unfun ways

my preferred solution is to just not play with those kinds of people

[dry sluice]

my preferred solution is to not play those kinds of games

[cyan reef]

I don't personally like the idea of tossing out entire characters and scripts because of a few bad apples that I'm already avoiding

but also it's not unusual for people to have particular characters they'd just prefer to avoid

and of course there's nothing wrong with that

[hollow oasis]

Notably that’s not because of ignoring cheese

I hope

[cyan reef]

I'm not sure that script will know the meaning of the word lol

[hollow oasis]

True

Wizard isn’t really cheese

Fearmonger seems to bring out the worst in people

People that normally don’t do cheese for other things suddenly become ravenously “meta and meta only”

[cyan reef]

again, this is highly reliant on who you're playing with...I have personally never seen this behavior with Fearmonger

[tacit fiber]

Evil Consult has cheese

[tacit fiber]

it’s bc the meta is so easy

[cyan reef]

and I've played with some awful people, lol (who are no longer allowed in my games)

[hollow oasis]

Good players bluff it?

(As least that sounds like the intention)

[tacit fiber]

you can “I pretend to not see it” evil consulting but like, “hey please nom yourself so we don’t risk a loss” is like more normal

[tacit fiber]

good players bluff wizard?

what group are you in

[hollow oasis]

On MHD that’s the intention

[cyan reef]

in MHD good players are meant to have reason to bluff as evil characters

Ben I'm also sure pretty much flat out said that Wizard's home script will have tons of reasons for players to visit the ST

[tacit fiber]

oh MHD

[feral snow]

Hey shoo

[hollow oasis]

Wizard normally?

[feral snow]

#speculation-and-spoilers is that way

[hollow oasis]

Look all you need is confusing role interactions

[feral snow]

My group does joke about making wizard wishes

A lot

[hollow oasis]

It’s public information cmon

You can find it on the TPI website

[pseudo fulcrum]

This is my exact experience with Fearmonger

I don't understand how Self-nom meta has become so big in Fearmonger games because it reduces your chances of executing evils significantly

[hollow oasis]

It’s a “you are forced to selfnom, otherwise you are evil, but you can defend yourself”

There’s no difference except for the fact that the nomination is done by the person being nominated

The meta to the point where a saint should self nom, defend themselves, and not get executed

[pseudo fulcrum]

why are your good players so willing to die

the more you execute good players, the less you execute evil players

[modern plume]

That's not what they said. At all?

[pseudo fulcrum]

yeah but the point is that if good players nominate themselves less because they are less willing to die, overall the number of evil players you execute will increase

[modern plume]

"Yeah but the point is that"
Okay, so then your earlier claims don't contribute since you never addressed what they said?

"if good players nominate themselves less because they are less willing to die, overall the number of evil players you execute will increase"

This is confusing. Nerd's claims about the meta is that if Good players refuse to nominate themselves, they'd be nominated anyway by someone else with the added risk of Fearmonger win. "There’s no difference except for the fact that the nomination is done by the person being nominated" As well, if the conclusion you reach about the meta and the response to refusal to self nominate as Nerd mentions is that it leads to more evil players being executed, why is that a bad thing from good's perspective? They get nominated regardless, so if the consequence still leads to more evils executed, good definitely ought to follow the meta?

If you typo'd and meant good players being executed (or meant the number of evil players executed will decrease), how does that detract from the meta if the conclusion is that not following the meta as the nominee leads to a worse chance of victory for good (thus following the meta leads to a higher chance of victory for good)

[fleet hedge]

It exposes players who refuse to self nom as evil

Yeah Nerfguy (and Quil) are right, if a good player has the choice between self nominating and not risking a Fearmonger loss or being nominated by someone else and risking a Fearmonger loss, the former is an objectively better option.

[modern plume]

(Thank you for the credit, but I'm only defending Nerdguy's point, so the credit should go to Nerdguy ^^ )

[fleet hedge]

This truth fundamentally breaks Fearmonger and requires players to play suboptimally (bad game design) or a homebrew house rule (which shouldn't be required for a fun game) in order for Fearmonger to work.

I see this as different to everyone Damsel guessing/Psycho choosing because a ST can, imo, reasonably decline those if they seem forced (which is really obvious). But you just can't decline a nomination.

[acoustic chasm]

I do think Fearmonger is easily to get around, and it doesn't harm good much to do that strategy

In the case of Yaggababble, good playing charades or not talking to deny the Yagg kills is a slight design issue... but it might not be optimal if the script has several demons which need good communication to defeat

[fleet hedge]

Good playing charades would be pretty funny

Just make the Yagga phrase a hand movement or something

[modern plume]

The best yagga phrase: 🖕 /j

[acoustic chasm]

That is my thought if good team does go into this meta

[cyan reef]

honestly this server is the only place where I ever see this discourse happen

and honestly it's strange that some people are so aggressive in ignoring some of the objective facts about things

[fast anchor]

I personally haven't seen people push for self-noms very often in fearmonger games, but I'm not going to deny that it happens

[cyan reef]

I definitely don't doubt it happens...all kinds of things happen that I never see because I don't play in those kinds of spaces 😆

unfortunately, I think part of it is people get stuck in their bubbles a bit...which is understandable because there's a lot of Clocktower all over the place and it really leans to people finding a specific community or space to play in, but still

[lost thistle]

okay so hear me out about fearmonger self-nom meta

add witch

[tardy wyvern]

I share this exact sentiment about the fearmonger self nom “meta” and I also share the experience where I’ve never seen it happen in an actual game

[acoustic chasm]

that's awesome ngl

[tardy wyvern]

Although that’s probably because I play clocktower mostly with people who share my general playstyle, and I would refuse to self nom in a fearmonger game even if I was good

[next marlin]

I play clocktower mostly with people who share my general playstyledoesn't livevoice have a lot of people who'll immediately throw themselves on the sword as good

[viscid citrus]

probably less than you might imagine

with a few exceptions

[acoustic chasm]

yeah

livevoice isn't a monolith

[next marlin]

the game I ran yesterday there were definitely a lot more people confused by an invest having a self-preservation instinct than I see in most communities (including large public ones)

[acoustic chasm]

yeah

[next marlin]

so that might be colouring my current perspective but

[cyan reef]

it may be important to note the difference between someone willing to self nominate in a Fearmonger game vs the meta where town wants to force players to self nominate and will disregard them as evil if they refuse to do so

[modern plume]

Witch seems to benefit the fearmonger self-nom meta. If a player is accused and asked to self nom and they do, and they die to the Witch curse, everyone now knows

• Two of the Minions in play
• The nominated individual had been suspected, and now has proven themself not the Demon (outside of specific contexts which requires higher player counts) and likely not a Minion
• No one else is in danger of dying to Witch that day.
• If the nominated individual really was Evil, that eliminates a Minion (the Witch or the Fearmonger unless higher player counts (or LM))

[tardy wyvern]

I play clocktower outside of just livevoice

[cyan reef]

(this meta also has the implication that being "outed evil" is something the town is not likely to interact well with)

[next marlin]

I think the second isn't really something that emerges except probably in isolated groups, people describing "fearmonger self-nom meta" are mostly (ime, as someone who's played in and seen groups where people describe themselves as doing it) describing an extreme form of #1

[tardy wyvern]

although recently since I’m not at university anymore I have been playing livevoice more

[acoustic chasm]

It is a good way to speed up the game though

[cyan reef]

people here definitely talk about it as if it is the second thing

[next marlin]

I know what nerdguy specifically is observing and that population is definitely #1

[cyan reef]

that's not how it has been described in general

I can't recall him saying anything specific that would be different, but the general idea is strong social pressure to self nominate, and an assumption of being evil if they don't

every time I've seen this discussed, that's what's been described

[next marlin]

yeah, and I want to clarify entirely to make sure everyone is on the same page that the large groups that have "anti-fearmonger metas" gravitate to an extreme form of #1 but not the literal description of #2, in the same sense they tend to gravitate towards e.g. doing too many 'vortox food' executions but not to hegemonically doing them to the point of assuming people are evil if they don't

(isolated groups can be very different)

and I know what nerdguy specifically is describing from observing the exact same groups he's describing

[cyan reef]

an extreme form of #1 is just #2

[next marlin]

a lot of these conversations can get affected by people describing different things without realizing which is why I like to clarify

[cyan reef]

assumption of a player being evil if they refuse to self-nominate has always been the center of it

without the threat of being treated as evil if one doesn't want to self nominate, then mostly just left not with a social problem but with a fundamental misunderstanding of basic game strategy (which Piglix brought up earlier but that was dismissed as, well, someone else would just nominate them instead, which reinforces my point of how the meta is always described)

[wooden igloo]

Tbh that doesn't really stop it unless the cursed one is fearmongered.
The only i can think of is to have heretic

[modern plume]

Heretic adds an additional wrinkle that may not be desirable for Evil roles with added win cons. Since with Fearmonger, they now have to also figure out if a Heretic is in play before pursuing their own ability, as otherwise if they succeed in their own ability and a Heretic is in play, their own successful efforts lose them the game

[fleet hedge]

The problem is that from a trying to win the game perspective, if you're a good player who is about to be nominated, it solely benefits your team to self nom in a Fearmonger game.

It's either you're nominated and might lose or you're nominated and won't lose

[cyan reef]

one could also just try not to be nominated in the first place

a Fearmonger win is unlikely anyway, and one should be keeping an eye out on a single player who more than everyone else is trying to get a specific nomination out there

[fleet hedge]

If Player A says "Hi, you're sus, I am going to nominate you, lol"

Assuming you believe Player A's threat, it is entirely beneficial to you to self nom instead

[cyan reef]

why?

[fleet hedge]

Because you are being nominated either way, but by self nomming you don't risk losing the game upon your potential execution

[cyan reef]

well, you're not risking losing the game...but if a suspected Fearmonger is nominating you, then you're less likely to get executed if they do the nomination

[tardy wyvern]

unless you want to nominate somebody else

[cyan reef]

but also it's worth pointing out again that self nominations themselves aren't an inherent problem

[cyan reef]

this too

[fleet hedge]

Get them to self nom

[tardy wyvern]

what if they don’t want to?

then you wasted your nomination on a good player

[fleet hedge]

A town working together should be able to get anyone they want nominated

[cyan reef]

most people don't self nominate, it's not reasonable to expect people to self nominate just because you want to see them nominated

[fleet hedge]

Like if you can get a trusted dead player to agree with you they can call to get that player nominated

[cyan reef]

it remains a strategy that is neither fun nor optimal

[fleet hedge]

In most environments I've played, if a player without a nom wants someone nominated that player either self noms or someone else noms them 95% of the time

[cyan reef]

well, yeah, nominations aren't hard to come by so long as there are alive players

[fleet hedge]

If half of town want you executed, self nomming vs not self nomming doesn't make much of a difference

[cyan reef]

the whole point of the game is for players to talk--dead players included--and figure out who to execute

again, the problem isn't the self nominating, it's the social pressure and assumption of guilt if they don't do it

[cyan reef]

this is already a valid reason for not wanting to self nominate

and wanting to nominate someone else

[fleet hedge]

I think "Fearmonger meta" is never a hard set meta from what I've seen, but it just develops naturally from players realising that self nominating is less risky that letting someone else nominate you. This then leads to more good self noms and makes people who don't want to self nom stick out a bit as likely evils.

[cyan reef]

for that matter, a player that people want to see nominated may have already nominated for the day

[cyan reef]

it's worth noting again that this isn't actual widespread behavior

not universal behavior, at least

this behavior in fact is banned in a lot of spaces

[fleet hedge]

Most of my Fearmonger experience comes from not a very large number of public games on the app, but I did notice a lot of self nominating and I also self nominated a few times

[cyan reef]

yeah, public games is probably where I would most expect this behavior

[fleet hedge]

Players were just very scared of Fearmonger so would self nom and just say "Oh I'll let [X player who was gonna nom me] do the accusation"

Evils did it too so as to blend in with good

[cyan reef]

at that point good is just letting Fearmonger have its maximum effect 😆

[fleet hedge]

It wasn't like the sort of self noms that e.g. Clockmakers sometimes do where they actually want to be executed

Like all players would be happy to self nom

[cyan reef]

yeah, this is just a strategy issue at that point

the question is if a player very reasonably didn't want to self nominate, what happens next?

[fleet hedge]

Tbh I don't see a situation where that would ever happen except on the last day

Like there's no reason a good player wouldn't self nom other than I guess if they felt they were the last good player alive with the ability to nominate

[cyan reef]

it can and does happen, regularly

[fleet hedge]

Then they get nominated by someone else

[cyan reef]

unfortunately this just ignores all the counterpoints being made

[fleet hedge]

But at that point they've achieved nothing by refusing to self nom in the first place

[cyan reef]

I know lots of people who won't self nominate because it's not in their best interest to do so

[fleet hedge]

But it's a sort of "self nominate and then give a big defense" not a "self nominate and be happy to die"

Like they don't want to be executed, they're just covering their bases in case they are

[cyan reef]

and then what? does the group incorrectly assume that that player must be evil?

[fleet hedge]

They probably think it's quite likely

[cyan reef]

if I'm the only player refusing to self nominate, funny enough it makes it more likely that a Fearmonger will choose me and that nominations on me shouldn't be trusted, so I'd call that a win 😆

[cyan reef]

right, so this proves my point to Vati earlier

[fleet hedge]

Then good players have the mentality of "well if they're good they've done this to themselves" and vote on it

[cyan reef]

again proving my point

this is not fun nor optimal

[fleet hedge]

And then after losing the game to fearmonger the good player realises "I should've self nommed so I didn't lose"

[modern plume]

"I'd call that a win"

... You'd lose. You literally gave perfect evidence that the meta is right, if your refusal to engage with the meta causes your loss. The only way this can be a victory for you is if your active goal is harm towards other players.

[cyan reef]

no

you all are really taking the complete opposite lesson here lol

[modern plume]

Yes, we have the capability of disagreeing with you. It's entirely possible you can be wrong.

If your lesson was correct, we ought be unable to point out these issues

[cyan reef]

to blame it on the player that town nominated and voted on, that is textbook toxic behavior

[fleet hedge]

That is the player who had the most power to stop the loss by simply self nominating

[modern plume]

Not in the slightest at all. Assessing an recognizing the consequences of behaviors is not toxic.

[fleet hedge]

So although it's not entirely their fault, they did make a mistake that game

[tacit fiber]

if a saint lies abt being the saint and is executed for it that’s 100% the saint’s failt

[cyan reef]

that is certainly not equivalent behavior

[modern plume]

Your behavior of insulting, denigrating, and delegitimizing anyone else's perspective is toxic behavior, not our behavior of recognizing the consequences of people's actions or following the logic of their claims to their conclusions.

[cyan reef]

but yeah, if you all think blaming a single player in a team game for a team decision isn't toxic behavior, then there's probably not much else to do unfortunately

[tardy wyvern]

respectfully Sam has not insulted a single person in this conversation

[tacit fiber]

saint and fearmonger are both execution based losscons that have simple counterplay

[modern plume]

Referring to UnformedPond as a toxic player for having their own opinion is a direct insult

[cyan reef]

right, what I'm saying is these kinds of behaviors are flat out banned in most prominent only clocktower spaces, and would be banned at places like Final Three Con as well

[modern plume]

UnformedPond explained the idea behind the meta, and rather than engaging and finding a reason not to do the meta, they claim such behavior is 'toxic'

[fleet hedge]

One thing a skilled player needs to do is learn to look at things from the perspectives of others. For example, a Soldier in TB who realises they have a lot of information condemning them should self nominate before final 3 and be happy to die, so that town can focus on actual demon candidates when it matters most. This is also why claiming Goblin as good tends to backfire, or why not telling anyone your true role (e.g. Ravenkeeper) until late tends to backfire.

As a good player you have the job just like an evil player to appear to others as good

[cyan reef]

again, there are reasons why so many prominent players avoid spaces where these kinds of things happen and why public games have such a negative reputation

[modern plume]

Yesterday, they literally called Huff an ass, and repeatedly denigrated their arguments as 'bad faith' and all their reasons as 'invalid'

[cyan reef]

if you want to think of that as an insult, I sincerely don't mean it to be, but I am first and foremost an advocate for the game

[tacit fiber]

this has happened in every irl group with FM that I’ve played with

[cyan reef]

the first and last points are true, the middle point isn't

[tardy wyvern]

I specified in this conversation, I don’t read everything that happens in this server lmao

[cyan reef]

I only one time mentioned that the argument didn't seem to be in good faith, and the response I got was deliberately in bad faith, so...yeah

[modern plume]

Nope

[fleet hedge]

I don't think Sam has been at all disrespectful, he is presenting valid arguments and I appreciate that

[viscid citrus]

if this is gettin personal can i ask you all to take a sec

secret thing isn’t for litigating playstyles

[cyan reef]

and to be clear, even though we disagree, I appreciate the discussion

so, thank you for being understanding

[dense moat]

6/2: Those of us in spec & spoilers have spent time on spoonerisms, such as Tinker into "Stinker" and Leviathan into "The Violin". What would you consider to be a good spoonerism for any other BOTC character you can think of?

(iirc, spoonerism is swapping the first two syllables in some manner)

(also Bootlegger -> Loot Beggar)

[cyan reef]

Vediant

Shibop

(if you can't tell I'm on the Travelers page of the wiki lol)

[dense moat]

Zivier

Boglin

[cyan reef]

"Boglin" should be the name for Alchemists with the Goblin ability

[dense moat]

If I ever roll Alch Goblin, I have to remeber to claim Boglin :)

[paper tusk]

masherfin

[cyan reef]

here's a cursed one

Gapescoat

[feral snow]

Iirc it would be misherfan

[dense moat]

Zakali

[paper tusk]

hounty bunter then :<

[sour harness]

Yamor

[supple dirge]

Corm Statcher

[dense moat]

Sounds like the protagonist of a bad mystery series

[tidal quiver]

Hat-Pig

[dense moat]

I would assume it’s more like Hit-Pag

Farrow Bog