secret thing

[river sparrow]

I'm gonna say D

anybody else wanna rank it

[barren zenith]

S because quadjank is the only teensy

[next vault]

6 is a better number

[river sparrow]

im not gonna contribute that for where it goes in the end

i think C is something we can agree on

we completely went off topic

with the question

[barren zenith]

On a more serious note, I'd say it's probably the worst player count overall?

[flat lintel]

12 >>>> 11 >>>>>> 9 >>>>>>> 8 >>>>>> anything else under 12 not mentioned >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 13-15

[fleet hedge]

the onl correct answer

[barren zenith]

Umm

Why is 9p so low?

[river sparrow]

ew 13 in a tier

yeah 9 in c?

[flat lintel]

9 player is legendary

[hollow oasis]

this is

incorrect

[fleet hedge]

i dont like 9

[next vault]

Why is 6 so low?

[river sparrow]

9 should not be with 14 and 15

[fleet hedge]

9 has way too high an outsider concentration

[fleet hedge]

teensy

[next vault]

and?

[fleet hedge]

teensys I don't really enjoy

[barren zenith]

I mean, when you compare it to a full game, it's really no contest

[next vault]

GUARDS! FORCE HIM TO PLAY QUADJANK!

[fleet hedge]

tbf 9 isn't that bad

this is the real tierlist

[river sparrow]

this is my opinion

i do think 12 is better

[fleet hedge]

6 is high damn

[river sparrow]

than 9

[fleet hedge]

This is my list for TB specifically

[river sparrow]

if we're doing tb specifically no teensy should be above F tier

[fleet hedge]

6p TB isn't the worst

but mabe

sure 6 goes in F

[barren zenith]

16 and 17 are just not F tier

[hollow oasis]

yes this includes mindfuck

[barren zenith]

Like 18p+ is rough imo

[fleet hedge]

2 and 7 on the same level?

[hollow oasis]

7 is bad

[fleet hedge]

7 is fine

[river sparrow]

unless you cut off half the characters to make a teensy version 6 should go in F for TB

what is mindfuck

is it a homebrew rule

[barren zenith]

It just isn't lol

[hollow oasis]

2-3 player games

[river sparrow]

that allows less than 5

then why is 4 and 1 on the tierlist

[hollow oasis]

there's no setup

1=athiest game

4=mindfuck still

[river sparrow]

can i see mindfuck

[fleet hedge]

I think there's no setup

[river sparrow]

an image of mindfuck's script

[river sparrow]

alright i can understand this

[barren zenith]

Most accurate tier list yet

[river sparrow]

you like base 1 but not too many players

[fleet hedge]

this is pretty based tbh

[river sparrow]

not too few either

[fleet hedge]

11 is def beter than 12

[river sparrow]

no its not

[barren zenith]

For a first game, I think 8p is definitely best

[river sparrow]

12 is better than alive you just like lower outsider count

[barren zenith]

Or 9p

[river sparrow]

i mean, watch yogscast, they only play with 8

so yeah

[foggy grotto]

wild takes here

[fleet hedge]

8p TB is peak

[barren zenith]

For a reason

[foggy grotto]

does anyone have a tierlist template right here

[river sparrow]

i think 9 is alright though for beginner

[fleet hedge]

https://tiermaker.com/create/numbers-1-100-538881

[river sparrow]

i used this onehttps://tiermaker.com/create/numbers-from-1-to-1000-1-1000-16837129

[barren zenith]

Just search up like "numbers"

[next vault]

guys I swear 671 is at least top 438

[coarse fern]

Yeah this is great imo

[next vault]

6 too low

[river sparrow]

no i think 999 is slightly higher

[fleet hedge]

what's your favourite teensy?

[coarse fern]

6 is just worse than any full

[barren zenith]

Top 438 is a push icl

[torpid mist]

6 is BoS7 territory because no one wants to play 6

[river sparrow]

i think its closer to number 450 i can agree dylan

[next vault]

either quadjank or literally any levi teensy

[barren zenith]

If you said like around top 837, then I'd agree

[river sparrow]

yeah BoS7 is awesome

[fleet hedge]

LuF sure, but quadjank over a full is crazy 😦

[coarse fern]

Damn not a 671 fan

[river sparrow]

in a matter of a fact, im predicting Ballad of Seat 7 to win the world cup

[next vault]

levijank in the corner 👁️

[river sparrow]

change my mind

[coarse fern]

BSN will trust

[barren zenith]

BoS7 is a SUPER cool idea, but the script is sort of lacking

[river sparrow]

Binary Supernovae? In your dreams

they're in the same group and i dont actually know who won their matchup

im gonna do a scheduled for ballad of seat 7

[fleet hedge]

BoS7 won 59-41

[river sparrow]

yeah BSN is not winning the world cup

[torpid mist]

BoS7 feels like a really neat Fabled in that I don't think you necessarily need to build a script around it for it to work

[barren zenith]

BSN is definitely the best actual script, but the idea is naturally evil-sided

[foggy grotto]

objective truth right here

[river sparrow]

yeah 13 does kinda suck if i'm being real

[coarse fern]

As a custom script lurker I’m required to root for it

[tidal quiver]

I'm personally a Trained Killer enjoyer but I haven't seen the new versions if it got changes since the start b/c I'm not really following it

[barren zenith]

Yeah, it's in the contract

[river sparrow]

we have gone so far away from the original question of what is your least favorite traveler

[fleet hedge]

we have a new question now

[barren zenith]

My personal favourite traveler is Deviant, which happens to be on Stowed Away, which is probably my favourite one of the WC scripts

[coarse fern]

Stowed Away is pretty cool

[barren zenith]

I would rather talk about WC than travelers, idk about you lot

[sour harness]

Stowed away is fun I played it yesterday

[sour harness]

Puzzledrunk Scapegoat Incident 🫠

[foggy grotto]

i agree with the S tier and F tier but the rest 😔

[coarse fern]

13+ is awful

[hollow oasis]

14 is fire

[river sparrow]

i refuse to see 3 put above 7 and 13

[foggy grotto]

is 3 and 4 real

thats like

musical chairs

[river sparrow]

its mindjack

[foggy grotto]

and nothing else

[hollow oasis]

mindfuck

[river sparrow]

sorry mindfuck

[foggy grotto]

oh that too ig

[barren zenith]

The 15p CC is rly fun imo, but then it is CC, which doesn't really care about the player count

[coarse fern]

15p can work but it’s very rare. Often it’s just overwhelming and not a good experience

[zenith lotus]

that was yesterday's question

[river sparrow]

what is today's?

[cyan reef]

importantly, there's no actual justification for this

[sharp violet]

Make a tier list of all player counts

[river sparrow]

the person that posted it said april 5th

[cyan reef]

it's just really the kind of thinking that really turns off a lot of people to much of online play

[sharp violet]

time zones

[river sparrow]

oh my goodness its just because im american i misunderstood it

cause we do month day

not day month

[barren zenith]

Day month year makes more sense

[river sparrow]

also doesn't it have to be posted by OP? or was that never a rule

[barren zenith]

Cause you go from smaller to larger units of time

[cyan reef]

anyone who thinks there are specific optimal plays in the base scripts should really be thinking hard about what they think they know that 10ish years of game play has otherwise missed

[coarse fern]

True but Americans use the imperial system. We don’t care about making sense

[river sparrow]

we save the time of having to say the word "of"

we say may 4th 2025 not 4th OF may 2025

yes i know its just one word

also posted BoS7 as a scheduled

because its fun

[supple dirge]

I love games up to 15, sometimes 16. After that gets more unmanageable.

[hollow oasis]

13 is spicy

[ebon idol]

shoutout to the guy at f3con running threensyville

[fast anchor]

this is about where i'm at

i have a huge soft spot for 13

i like 20 for the sheer novelty and spectacle but it's a lot

[barren zenith]

What did 10p do to you?

[tacit fiber]

This is so bad it loops back to being good

[barren zenith]

Mfw the only demon that can legally be in a game is legion

[tacit fiber]

note that the script name is "0301"

3 outsiders, 1 demon

there are like some other rules that make thiswork but like

[feral snow]

oh i thought it was an SCP

[tacit fiber]

it's p fun

[tacit fiber]

😭

[tacit fiber]

when I draw a good character on a 10, I feel like Blood on the Clocktower as a game hates me

[barren zenith]

Just vote better /lh

[hollow oasis]

solo typhon

it's like having a Duchess

[tacit fiber]

sadly this does not loop back to being good I fear

[hollow oasis]

I tested this

fun

[fleet hedge]

4 above 11

Crazy

[tacit fiber]

I am a CSD opinion haver

I must Have Opinions

[fast anchor]

and yet no opinion on threensyville

[fleet hedge]

What do you play with 4?

FL?

[fast anchor]

song of seat 5 ig

[muted crescent]

Funny thing about 7p is that I never want to play 7 but when I actually do it's always enjoyable

[fleet hedge]

YESS 7 IS SO UNDERRATED

People who would rather play a teensy are crazy

[muted crescent]

I think 7 has this effect where even if a player is super passive or softspoken their voice always gets heard

[ivory ridge]

wait

are we ranking player count

?????

[lean isle]

Looks like so.

[feral snow]

lmaooo found kenoboi

[tacit fiber]

did you see the script posted right under it

[fleet hedge]

Oh that abomination

😢

[fleet hedge]

88 player is at least B tier smh

[feral snow]

here's mine

[tacit fiber]

insane s tier choices

[feral snow]

9 player goes so hard

[fleet hedge]

Says you /lh

[tacit fiber]

uhh you're canadian

[fleet hedge]

But man I hate 15 player

[tacit fiber]

this joke fails to work

[tacit fiber]

creator of quadjank
hates teensies

smh

[sour harness]

I don't hate them

I just prefer fulls

The tiers are all quite close together here

I also love the implication that making one teensy means I should like teensies in general

[torpid mist]

You're the teensy guy now

That's just how it is, you write one (1) 3000-word essay about a script type and that's just "your thing" from then on

[fleet hedge]

Wait you wrote a 3000-word essay on quadjank?

[feral snow]

on midsy's iirc

[sour harness]

Yeah but that was a new innovation

And that was malvora not me, to be clear

I should write up quadjank

[next marlin]

Eh people have been making them for a while

There used to be one that was run on the app a lot and also had +3 evils

[ivory ridge]

what

[sour harness]

App players will play the darndest things

[ivory ridge]

its akin to an addiction

.

[next vault]

+3 evils teensy? 😭

[torpid mist]

+3 evils Midsy

[muted crescent]

I've played in a +1 evil teensy before

[torpid mist]

Doesn't make a difference, but still if it's my thing I'll stand up for it

[next vault]

Vigor Highschool

[muted crescent]

Idk it was some ogre stuff

And also the ST would add travellers sometimes

[next vault]

❓

🧠 ❌

[next marlin]

was this the teensy version of the midsy in question (Don't Jump My Ogre)

[muted crescent]

I forgot

[next marlin]

it was sanjay's script, I never played it but I spectated a bunch of games

[muted crescent]

I haven't even heard of midsies before I came

Ye sanjay st'd it

[next marlin]

midsy is a recent coinage but it's scripts designed to play at 1 minion

whic DJMO was because it had iirc 10 townsfolk

maybe 11

we just called it a small game script though

[muted crescent]

Bro I just stopped playing when

I got Imp in a 7 player game with Balloonist as the only Outsider mod and they added a Golem

[next marlin]

oh my god I think I remember this story

[muted crescent]

Then the boomdandy went off in put me in a final 3 with an unspent slayer

[next marlin]

wasn't balloon the only positive outsider mod on the script too

[muted crescent]

Yes

[next marlin]

most helpful boomdandy

[coarse fern]

Based outsider choice

Awful script tho

[spiral pollen]

its the 2 year anniversary of this forum thread on thursday

what should we do

[coarse fern]

Bake a cake and revel in the glorious entity that is secret thing

[tidal quiver]

So true

[lone spire]

There's only been one change so far, going into match 2, which was Wizard and Ogre out, Cerenovus and Mutant in.

[tidal quiver]

mutant actually sounds quite interesting

[celest basin]

ew, travellers

[foggy grotto]

you can tell who’s a livevoice player by who puts 12 in S-tier

oh wtf i did not see the 827363829 new messages

[sour harness]

there's less than that

[lost thistle]

wtf is a 1 player teensy

do you just duel the ST

1 player atheist game where you have the bishop ability and cant nom

[fast anchor]

teensy ballad of seats 2-3-4-5

[lost thistle]

ah
the solopsism teensy

[supple dirge]

The Truman Show game

[lost thistle]

trapping a player in a text game where the other 11 people are all just alts of the st and trying to see how long it takes for them to notice

wait this is just the plot of legion

[sour harness]

Kinda

[hollow oasis]

5/5 alright, design some incredibly arcane savant info

That’s busted but barely understandable

(You’ve seen my image in #sects-and-violets right)

[fast anchor]

stealing this one from nothership: If you had the Clockmaker, Mathematician, Flowergirl, Town Crier, and Oracle abilities last night, you'd recieve at least one piece of duplicate information

when that one's false, it's huge

[next marlin]

The meta-confirmed statement that wasn't

[ivory ridge]

god i hate savant statement that make me do math

if you want to distract people with information and let them yap about it just give them 2 noble ping /hj

savant is lowkey a busted character anyway

i think too often than not the savant just get info that turn out to be uh, way too strong late game

[feral snow]

One day 1 piece I actually got was “The characters on the evil team have more than 24 letters in their name”

It was Evil Twin pit hag iirc so it came down to the demon type

[acoustic chasm]

"Every vowel in the English alphabet appears at least once among all in play characters"

[signal holly]

this is honestly one of my favorite (in a bad way) bits of Savant info I’ve ever come up with

I have a soft spot for Savant statements that just cannot be used to start worldbuilding and only help for cross-checking other theories and this is that but going a bit too far

oh wait this is the one I gave in the Barista game isn’t it

nevermind this is one of my favorite bits of storytelling I’ve ever done for a completely different reason

[lost thistle]

oh?

please elaborate

[lost thistle]

you would get the clockmaker No because the pit hag removed the demon from existence 🔥

[foggy grotto]

“if the outsiders were shugenja they must receive different pings”

works better off snv where it’s not as devastating to add freely give the fact that’s there’s only 2 outsiders

[fast anchor]

iirc the savant was barista 1d, then the barista got sweetheart drunked later that night

so instead of being t/t the pair that day (which included that statement) was f/t

[lost thistle]

what would this mean if its a vigor game

[hollow oasis]

It’s a false statement

[supple dirge]

If there's 0 or 1 outsider they would all get different pings so it would be true right

[signal holly]

yep

the duplicate information statement was meant to be a trivially true red herring

[modern plume]

That is how it would be interpreted if we're doing it mathematical logic; every outsider does indeed have a unique result when there is 0 or 1 outsiders, so it's true.

If it's intended to be false due to requiring multiple outsiders for it to be true, it results in a "The King of France is bald" type of statement which is not ideal.

[ivory ridge]

wasn't this literally the pithag incident

[feral snow]

Shit it might have been

Yeah it was

[versed junco]

Are there any other incidents we should know about

[honest tide]

“If your neighbors characters went on a roadtrip together they’d have a great time together”

[feral snow]

I’ve listed them all somewhere

We had philo klutz incident, chef 3 incident, racist matron incident, and the witch incident

[ivory ridge]

surprisingly, i was only in 2 out of these 4 incident

[feral snow]

I thought you were in the witch incident too

[versed junco]

Which incident?

[feral snow]

Yea

[lost thistle]

we need a recap of every incident

[feral snow]

Hm okay

Uh philo klutz incident: we thought demon was dead (mizu was a framed pit hag) and had a twin pair with no other info. Demon claims to be Philo klutz and after a long debate, guessed a twin. Evil won

The witch incident: despite almost al evils neighbouring each other, the evil team didn’t coordinate and the new fang Gu was pit hagged, jumped, and witch cursed. They nominated in final 4. Good won

Both of these were SnV

Racist Matron: BMR. Mizu grouped all the white people together as a Matron

Deliberately

Chef 3: I was running a legion game on one mosh cat pit 2.0 (LoT release script). I gave the chef a 3 but I did thumb index middle finger instead of my normal index middle ring finger. In the dark, the thumb was missed and I didn’t know until day 2 and by then two goods were executed and the game was over

[fast anchor]

oh I should compile all of my group's incidents

[tidal quiver]

y'all play clocktower in the dark?

[fast anchor]

do you not

it's a vibe

[tidal quiver]

y'know that's probably pretty true but given that I've dropped the whole grim once I wouldn't like to trip over something and do it again

[feral snow]

Literally just that one time

[feral snow]

#1368941866896326787 message

[severe raven]

Was this me

[feral snow]

This was your info yes

[tidal quiver]

yeah... I was playtesting that ability, thats it! Totally!

[foggy grotto]

doesn’t work that well in SnV

[next marlin]

It's a vacuously false statement in vigor but I think this is fine actually and also that giving "vacuously false, and difficult to prove as such" statements is good

[muted crescent]

5/6: I'm gonna list 2 characters. Choose one of them and say one commonly paired character you like with it and one you don't. Then repeat this for the most recent message.

randomly got

I'll start with
I like with it
Don't like with it

(Choose between )

[fast anchor]

🥳
😭

of cere:

I like Vigor's pairing with it, keeping a cere around to f3 can be gamewinningly disgusting and there isn't anything good can do about it outside of get good

Legion/Cere showed up a lot before Harpy existed as a character but sometimes you just need cere as an info suppressor on a Legion script, because Harpy doesn't silence in quite the same way. A cere execution confirming nonlegion really sucks, though, and because ceres don't talk to their STs enough I never know whether to close the Legion world or not and it sucks to ST

[lone spire]

✅
🥳
😭

Xaan being able to override Vigor's disadvantage of -1 outsider and locking in some later poisoning is... 💋. However, Scarlet Woman has such anti-synergy, despite a lot of Vigor scripts somehow still needing it because there aren't that many good fallback minions (outside of its home minion of who come with a lot of other headaches sometimes)

[ebon idol]

✅
❌

Philo can solve xaan, but it nukes the philo's ability if solved. There's the dynamic of "Do I no longer have my ability because I used it on the xaan night, am I currently poisoned, or is there another piece of droison affecting me", in addition you need to play around when you think xaan night would be

Near the xaan release date I rolled philo, and on night 2 I chose to philo into the acrobat, and choose the acrobat claim. I did not die, and wanted to survive another day to see if I would continue waking. Turns out the acrobat claim was the poisoner, who was going to plan to poison me so I did not wake. Just a super interesting set of interactions.

I just don't think BH xaan is a compelling or fun puzzle, especially with just how damn swingy BH is, it is already a very centralizing character with the +1 evil and direct evil pings are always disgustingly strong, but messing with either side of this in the way that xaan does just kinda sucks.

[tacit fiber]

Xaan acts after philo in the night order for this reason

[ebon idol]

Xaamn ur right

It was how it was ruled in that game and I just don’t pay attention to rulings that much anymore

[hollow oasis]

[ebon idol]

Ok looked back and also remembered why I forgot: I dislike the xaan night order rulings and would choose to ignore some of them (including philo) as an ST ✅

Poppygrower, preacher, alchemist can be immune (also philo of those), everything else goes into the soup bin

[feral snow]

I like the part where you finish the prompt

[hollow oasis]

Absolutely vile

Horrible combo

Literally a thrall

[zenith lotus]

what

what are you doing

[gray ridge]

❌
✅ Nothing
❌ Everything

[hollow oasis]

Was trying to embody that it is literally from satan

[ebon idol]

I like you 🤝

[zenith lotus]

oh i see

[hollow oasis]

[zenith lotus]

the edit made it more obvious

[hollow oasis]

Ok this interaction is cool

Good jinx

[feral snow]

✅
❌

[hollow oasis]

✅

❌

[sour harness]

✅
❌

[sharp violet]

☑️
🇽

[coarse fern]

✅
❌

Acrobat cannibal is super cool imo, it serves as a functional executee alignment checker but it can be interrupted by droison or a bluffing acro/Canni which is based

No dashii acrobat isn’t nearly as cool, I feel like when the acrobat dies good is just going to execute the players next to the person it picked when it died

I don’t find it particularly interesting

[foggy grotto]

✅
🎉
👎

[dense moat]

*i was just making one. now i have to start over 😭 *

✅
❌

[dense moat]

Noble provides lots of fun opportunities for bad info & isnt as obvious when it learns a Mario (coughs coughs )

Magician always felt akward. You dont get info and it feels weird to give a Mario as a 3rd Minion. It kinda fucks with the Magician's already tough mission

[next marlin]

People are so divided on how to interpret noble pings that I never have any idea what to give a mario-noble lmao

You give them three goods and they make it a confirmation chain, you give them their co-evils and they get them killed

[dense moat]

Thats true, but also, drunk Noble info is funny

(harder with Mario admitdly, but I like it conceptually)

Really, I just like Mario with any role thats fun to droison without being immediately obvious (droison Savant is funny but annoying)

[ebon idol]

Noble just a great role ✅

[ebon idol]

Also this still lol I just give up when running it at let whatever happens happen

[muted crescent]

Don't like
Like

[fast anchor]

booo, double dip :p

[vale oxide]

❌
✅

DA isn't really commonly paired with LM (thankfully), but I did play a game as the DA with a LM

[iron scarab]

✅
❌

boffin has 20 good uses and atheist is not one of them 🙂‍↕️

[lean isle]

- funny interaction that makes town double guess before just exing Atheist claim
- it's very hard to differ Atheist from Legion games and a single good vote into ST just ends the game if wrong with Legion rising up.

[tacit fiber]

✅
❌

It’s suuuuper interesting to have loud minions that can be bluffed by legion. Amazing dynamic.

It’s suuper cringe to have minions that are forced to deconfirm legion

[next vault]

Honestly yeah, I don't like how the Fearmonger is ST confirmed

[torpid mist]

✅
❌

[versed junco]

I have bad news

[torpid mist]

I am aware

[next marlin]

Vortox and No Dashii help a lot, if people ever put ET on customs we would probably see lots of awful clock twin scripts where it's even more precarious than on snv

People love putting horrible things on the scripts they do put twin on though. I've seen multiple lycan twin scripts

[torpid mist]

Golem Twin 🔥

[next marlin]

My first custom had moonchild twin

It didn't survive the first game with both in the bag

[cold veldt]

omg townsider

is there a cool word for helpful outsiders like how there’s thrall for outsiders for evil?

[torpid mist]

Are you implying townsider is not a cool word

[next marlin]

I think of 'townsider' more as a design space where the line is blurry

[cold veldt]

fair

[next marlin]

golem and moonchild are townsiders in that they don't quite balance as either, klutz 'can be a townsider' because it by design more often triggers its helpful than unhelpful state but it can be very unhelpful indeed, mutant 'can be a townsider' because its design has odd player count scaling, etc

but notably a townsider is not a townsfolk

they're roles that don't quite land in a distinct cluster

[karmic slate]

✅
❌

Stop it. Stop putting Preacher on Cere scripts

[cold veldt]

someone Steven Medway react this pls

[karmic slate]

ignore that early Paradox script building ptobably did this but it’s called growth

[cold veldt]

actually Paradox, people never change and you are just a nitpicking and biased hypocrite 🤓

[karmic slate]

Better a Hypocrite on the right side than wrong 🙂‍↕️ (idk what I’m saying fwiw)

[karmic slate]

SHHHHHHHHHH

That’s why Boomdandy’s on there fwiw 🙂‍↕️

Honestly might revisit that script. It was SnV foundations with Alsaahir solving worlds I think

[versed junco]

As long as it keeps Preacher and Cere

[cold veldt]

tbh I think preacher should go over cere and the gang

cause like harpy is fire with alsaahir

[honest tide]

❌ I hate this interaction. It feels terrible. I know it’s in snv but I don’t like it there either
✅ This really pushes that whatever info the mad person was giving before was BS. Similar to goon or even drunk

[lost thistle]

✅ I love Poli in an atheist game where they essentially try to also be on the storyteller’s team and try to push “yea the game’s actually just perfectly normal”
leads to some fun dynamics
❌ Hey can you Not. this,,, ruins the entire character because haha you couldnt turn because somebody else already did get fucked

[cold veldt]

✅ yes stop the mez cycling :D
❌ NO!!!!!!!!!

[acoustic chasm]

✅
❌

Fortune Teller works with Demons with some but not loads of mobility (Think Imp and Fang Gu v Lil Monsta and Po.)

Drunk Fang Gu means everyone has a chance of becoming Fang Gu no matter what token they draw. Them getting incorrect info before being jumped to puts a big target on their back if solved. Not a fan.

[feral snow]

I love this take thank you so much

✅
❌

yeah yeah I know catfishing but like catfishing is built around it and I shit on that script enough. Every time I see pit hag Drunk I kinda just sigh.

[cold veldt]

baron drunk is the most perfect duo in all of clocktower

[versed junco]

Now that's a ship I can get behind

[cold veldt]

honestly yeah... the stingy and rude Baron ends up falling for their cheap labour that sucks at their job because they are consistently Drunk

[versed junco]

Toxic yaoi at its finest

[cold veldt]

intoxicated yaoi 🥴

[versed junco]

Wheyyyy

[shrewd cloud]

✅
❌

I’m definitely biased (did this in a game a long time ago and felt like a mastermind) but Pit-Hags creating evil Snake Charmers and using that to later move the Demon without arbitrary deaths is a fun idea to me. At least more fun than the slow Baron strat that tends to happen with Pit-Hag. Honorable mention goes to Farmer which can be bluffed in interesting ways with Pit-Hag

Lleech can become mad OP if it comes into play later in the game. I think I’ve only seen one time where a late game new Lleech lost and that was mostly from socials

[acoustic chasm]

✅
❌

Lleech with Alsaahir is interesting. Alsaahir is not the strongest character, so giving them a good hint as who to guess for the Demon suddenly makes it more powerful, and something to listen to. It also means that good executing the Demon has a way to use this information for something even better.

There are many dishonourable mentions with Lleech. Lleech+Science characters like Tea Lady and Sailor have really visible abilities. If they go wrong because of Lleech poison, the Lleech is cooked! Lleech and Scarlet Woman can lead to instant wins if not bootlegged, and because of mid-game changing of hosts, it can be very strong.

I've decided to go away from these choices, and instead opt for Mayor. A Mayor in Lleech game is incredibly sad. Them being a potential Lleech host in final 3 means that they can never be confident in a Mayor win. If they are confident (the other player has information which would only make them a Llleech host from their perspective), the Mayor could have been any other character to make such a conclusion. Mayor with droisoning Demons like Pukka and Lleech may as well have no ability, and really struggle because of this.

[barren zenith]

✅
❌

Meta-ing kazali picks is v fun.
Not being able to world-build off of previous guesses is rough.

[fleet hedge]

❌
✅

Steward (and Knight) when your info could just be randomly poisoned aren't fun

I like that Empath numbers can change when neighbours don't and that the Poisoner and Demon can coordinate to mess up new Empath info

[fleet hedge]

What do you like with Mutant?

[honest tide]

literally anything but cerenovus

[fleet hedge]

It's quite hard to make a script where the Mutant doesn't just out day 1 unless you use cere

[honest tide]

Really? That’s never been my experience

[fleet hedge]

Like a Mutant exe hard confirms them

So at base 0 that can confirm an Omod game

[honest tide]

Yeah but a good storyteller will just not execute you

Until later

[lost thistle]

the issue is if you ceremad the mutant as an outsider

[lost thistle]

what do they do

[barren zenith]

Cere + Mutant is fun imo

[honest tide]

is it? It feels terrible as the mutant

[fleet hedge]

As in if you get ceremad as an outsider?

[honest tide]

Yes

[fleet hedge]

You can always walk back on it later

[iron scarab]

hhr has this interaction with levi and it feels very iffy to me

[honest tide]

No you can’t I’m pretty sure it’s whole game madness isn’t it?

Because it’s part of the character and not temporary like cere or harpy

[fleet hedge]

No, you can only execute for madness if the player is currently mad

[lost thistle]

you know what would solve this cere mutant interaction?

instead using the outsider Occultist, who must be mad about a new thing each day but once per game actually learns something

as even if madded as an outsider they arent screwed

[fleet hedge]

If it was whole game, Pixie could stop being mad and still get the ability

[sour harness]

Lleech alsaahir??? 😭

[honest tide]

No if the pixie broke madness they don’t get the ability as well

[fleet hedge]

Cere mutant is fine, if the mutant us mad as an outsider and their execution ends the game just don't execute them

It's like self Cere at f3

Cere is might for a reason

[lost thistle]

what if it wouldnt end the game

[iron scarab]

if the pixie breaks but walks it back later and gives a reasonable explanation i would give them the ability

[lost thistle]

what do you do as an outsider mad mutant on 7

are you just fucked

[fleet hedge]

Then fair play to the Cerenovus, execute it

[iron scarab]

i think most sts would

[fleet hedge]

That's a minion ability helping evil

[lost thistle]

yeah
when do you exe it?

as soon as they say something?

during noms?

[fleet hedge]

Whenever you like

Probably nicest to let Savant or Savant claims get info

And Adtist

*artist

But after that it's not a big deal really

[lost thistle]

me as the mutant mad as the mutant walking into town “hey everyone im the super tinker now”

[honest tide]

I mean this feels terrible as the mutant though right? You literally just die and have no way of getting around it

[lost thistle]

get executed*

witch curses dont feel as bad

[fleet hedge]

But you also just die and have no way around it if the demon kills you at night

[lost thistle]

its also that you know it will happen

[fleet hedge]

Like dying happens

[barren zenith]

The cerenovus likely knows who the mutant is, the mutant has lived until final 3, the cerenovus also lived until final 3 with the demon. Why wouldn't you reward evil instead of making an outsider and minion ability combined help the good team?

[lost thistle]

when it suddenly happens it feels different

[honest tide]

Ive never once felt as bad as a good player as when the cerenovus picked me as the mutant and I couldn’t claim anything because I’d just die

[fleet hedge]

It doesn't help the good team – I'm just a firm believer that Cerenovus should never end the game automatically on final 3 (unless it's a good player's fault of course)

Also remember S&V has Vigor

Vigor killed Cerenovus shouldn't win if Mutant gets to f3

[fleet hedge]

I really don't see how it's that bad

[honest tide]

Mutant is my favorite outsider in non-cerenovus games and my least favorite as soon as there is one in the game

[fleet hedge]

Like your team just loses an execution and you die - but you die to witch as well

[lost thistle]

do you like being Tinker?

[honest tide]

Except I can play around witch

[barren zenith]

I don't think we're gonna change eachother's minds, so I'm not going to continue arguing this out.

[honest tide]

Not really tbh

Like the idea of the mutant is that so long as you lie you won’t be executed during the day (except by town ofc)
There’s agency to that.
Once the cere picks you you get stripped of the single piece of agency you have as a character.

[next vault]

[torpid mist]

Just to pick up on that last part, I think Mayor with specifically ND is neat, because it has a very obvious tell

[acoustic chasm]

I agree which is why I didn't include it w that list

[acoustic chasm]

Ye?

Maybe it goes against Lleech's whole shtick of being a waste of time if executed

But I think it's a nice duo.

Good get an inconsistent way to win for correctly executing the Demon

[sour harness]

It goes against lleech's whole shtick of "town needs to find a good player, not an evil player, to win"

Lleech needs to be okay with being outed in order to work as a character

[ivory ridge]

right but like

it's alsahiir

so it's fine by the virtue of alsahiir-ness

[sour harness]

😭

[ivory ridge]

am i wrong though

[acoustic chasm]

Just kill the alsaahir

Idk I think its neat

[ivory ridge]

i like it

honestly i think this is lowkey gsoe intended interaction

because like, how else would you explain alsaahir otherwise

[fleet hedge]

Lleech definitely shouldn't want to be outed

It gives good a 50/50 at f3 rather than a 33/33/33

[shrewd cloud]

Yeah I don’t think it’s an awful interaction. Definitely important to keep in mind when balancing a script, but it’s not like it gives Alsaahir an instant win when the Lleech is discovered. They still need to find the Minions and still could be killed / droisoned

[sour harness]

Right but if it does happen it shouldn't lose for it

It can be disadvantaged but if there's an alsaahir that can shortcut the win, what was the point of being a lleech

[acoustic chasm]

A lleech being outed needs at least a day for the Alsaahir to make any significant huess

I think it works well in practice

[dense moat]

5/7: What is your favorite interaction between two experimental characters? Why?

[cold veldt]

so the demon knows the king, meaning that they're a very easy kill. but because the choirboy learns the demon if the king dies, that prevents the demon from killing the king for a while until they're sure the choirboy is gone

it's a pretty underrated interaction imo

[shrewd cloud]

I love Boffin abilities that give a chance for evil to use a good ability in a different way than usual. Also just fun from a STing perspective

Also got to give a shout out to Yagga and Golem

[lone spire]

I love how hatter encourages engineer to hold their ability and gives evil an undo button if they do end up going early.

[sour harness]

a tf!marionette can push the wrong xaan night (or blend in with the real one), and outsider!marionette is a lot more powerful now that it pushes a different xaan night

[ivory ridge]

is my favorite interaction. i love how these two compliment and create uncertainty about whether the golem is a real golem or just a psycho in hiding

[supple dirge]

Love how high stakes leviathan feels with every execution and cannibal makes you want to push your luck further.

and are also a lot of fun with no one dying

[spiral pollen]

we found steven medways alt

[wispy nest]

I love the interaction

Hide among the evil team

[ivory ridge]

actual answer btw:
i do think that this interaction, if mismanaged could be fairly evil sided, but it really do a few thing that i love:

1. it solve the idea that lm is recognizable via minion ability count decently enough because it literally is design for ability mimics, but not to an extent where it completely mess with good like poisoner, because at some point things don't adds up in a way that can be solvable
2. compliment very well with lm being a 'night death demon'. you can give risky ability like virgin or pacifist and let them die at night. other demon that is stationary, if given this ability, eventually run to the issue of 'why haven't you die yet'.
3. more of a fun thing but it incentivize different people to hold the baby. sharing demon responsibility is fun actually 🔥

[fast anchor]

finally, mizuwall of text

[wispy nest]

lol

[ivory ridge]

i just think it's neat

[fast anchor]

Hatter is devastating enough as an outsider to where many are incentivized to get themselves killed d1 to avoid things like a Shabaloth being made late-game, or a late swap into something mobile.

Since a tea party wakes the evil team together, it pierces the PG blinding, meaning sacking yourself d1 isn't an option anymore. It makes the character a lot more devastating and interesting to play, since it takes away the unfun "sac outsider" play pattern and makes them anything but a policy execute.

[supple dirge]

I would wake them seperately if hatter died with poppygrower active

But is interesting to think about

[honest tide]

i once had a game with 10 mutants and 1 atheist in a “leviathan” game and it was very fun

[acoustic chasm]

Idk I just think its neat. Acro dying to a cannibal pick frames something but it has foils.

[zenith lotus]

bonus points if combined with

[iron scarab]

funny

[acoustic chasm]

A very nice duo. Works well for bluffing, but also gives the preacher some knowledge (their execution won't go boom!)

[tidal quiver]

is probably not my favorite but a really neat interaction for both the acrobat to find the OG as well as the OG to bluff being droisoned and thus able to confirm themself/another evil via good droison

[ebon idol]

Secret thing users when paragraph

[next vault]

I think it's an interesting combo that makes finding the demon a lot more interesting (because finding hosts is really fun and not annoying)

[foggy grotto]

a lot of great answers but this one is great, especially if it’s a demon that doesn’t choose kills

[cold veldt]

experimental characters........

[next marlin]

Lunatic's home script is Lunar Eclipse

[next vault]

No, it's quadjank

[foggy grotto]

you think i can read?

[next vault]

News Update: Quadjank substitutes TB in Base 3! (not base 6, base 3 with excitement)

[ivory ridge]

i mean

isn't quadjank b3 teensy

like the known b3 teensy rn is

• luf
• quadjank
• "anything but ngj"

[next vault]

• luf
• quadjank
• "anything but ngj and kaz game"

[ivory ridge]

a lleech of distrust, perchance

[gray ridge]

[muted crescent]

Is that cuz they're the animals

[gray ridge]

Its cuz typhons main weakness is all evils on a line and OG helps with hiding line voting patterns

[muted crescent]

Ohh

: opens up interesting bluffing space

[hollow oasis]

5/8 Due to extreme weather concerns, the Doomsayer teaming up with the Vortox. What do the other BOTC characters do to prevent a total catastrophe

[fast anchor]

joins the war on the extreme weather on the side of the extreme weather

hi mousey

[viscid citrus]

hi axolator

i was thinkin about the tea lady

[hollow oasis]

warns a newstation

[coarse fern]

smash

[hollow oasis]

turns the Tornado into a Giant Kraken……… This makes the situation worse

[viscid citrus]

what tha hecc how do you even have this

[fast anchor]

i think catto sent it to me :O

[hollow oasis]

Opens Waffle House

[viscid citrus]

i been called out >.<

[sour harness]

The courtier drinks with the vortox so the empath clockmaker and dreamer can get good info, then the mayor shoots the slayer and the mayor gets elected

[ivory ridge]

how does 'doomsayer teaming with vortox' work

[barren zenith]

Gotta be either:

Or

Minion receives damsel ping -> freely bluff widow ping

Boffin-balloonist can add an outsider and even hint towards a damsel

Or find an outsider for the FG to jump to

[next vault]

balances everything

[cold veldt]

no way, mousey_ want tea in secret thing?! :o

[hollow oasis]

Thundery tornado

[versed junco]

Self explanatory

[dense moat]

Sells last minute insurance as a reasonable price :)

Somehow survives being at the center of the storm because they sobered up

On the edges of the storm, killing everyone who tries to get away

[foggy grotto]

JOB JOB MENTIONED

[sharp violet]

[sour harness]

@hollow oasis a proper meal

[hollow oasis]

I never said chipotle was good

I said the rice was good

[sour harness]

I said chipotle was good

-# (good enough)

[hollow oasis]

chipotle isn't good it's just the rice

eat at any other mexican restauraunt

[coarse fern]

Chipotle is great

[feral snow]

Nerdguy loves chipotle rice bowls

Ngl he got me into them

[hollow oasis]

They know me as the “rice guy”

The new hires get incredibly and utterly bamboozled

They do not understand the vision

Anyways I also get guacamole and chips and a side of cheese

But damn…… really shouldn’t be $15.60

[fast anchor]

not you too

don't tell me you also get just the rice

[feral snow]

No I get steak on it too

And my gf gets tomatoes but I’m not crazy about them

[fast anchor]

my chipotle bowl order is like, brown rice black beans chicken spicy salsa sour cream

if im with friends I get white rice because i don't want to look like a freak lmao

[sour harness]

Axo nobody is judging you for brown rice 😭

[sour harness]

But like. Is that all.

[viscid citrus]

not the wraps :0

[fast anchor]

IVE GOTTEN JUDGED FOR IT

im paranoid but not that paranoid

[ivory ridge]

white rice is good

brown rice is cool but people who judge you for the rice color you choose are probs all white anyway

[viscid citrus]

i like brown rice more i think

it takes a bit longer to cook though

[lucid crag]

insiders

[muted crescent]

5/10 Favorite cursed interaction

[dense moat]

Inviting the Recluse to babysit Lil Monsta

On a more serious note, I had a three way interaction where a Golem nominated while being Innkeeper drunk and witch cursed. On a Yag script 🤣

Reverse Golem moment

[lean isle]

That was quite hilarious

[tidal quiver]

Choirboy waking and learning a player after a spy is killed

[next vault]

Alchemist Legion

[gusty bear]

a good leviathan being the second good execution of the game with a mastermind in play triggers a mastermind day

[lucid crag]

choirboy waking to learn recluse after spy is killed ☝️

[karmic rose]

Choirboy waking to learn a singular legion after alch spy is killed

[austere steppe]

Cannibal eating a spy who registered as snakecharmer.

[next vault]

Boffin-Alch-Spy meaning the demon is TL/Paci protected

[karmic rose]

lleech at home

[next vault]

Actually just Barista 2 the Boffin (AlchSpy + Paci)

Or just give it the alchvizier ability like in quadjank

[lost thistle]

this is my favorite because it can be done on base SnV

so you’re the demon, somebody’s claiming philo-whatever

the barber just died, you get to swap now

swap yourself with the philosopher. you are now the evil philosopher, they are the good demon

become the philo-snake charmer

pick them

your roles and alignments will now swap.
you are now the good demon, they are now the evil philosopher

[sharp violet]

and then kill yourself to win - all in one night

[lost thistle]

yep :3

you can also do it with a regular snake charmer but they're far less likely to claim

[karmic rose]

... how did I not know about this one simple trick (minions HATE her!!)

[next marlin]

It's an infohazard we agree not to spread

[lost thistle]

"hey witch could you curse the barber? no reason 😇"

[muted crescent]

wtf

[brittle bridge]

nightmare

[hollow oasis]

anyway we need to contain the info leak

No one can know about this

[iron scarab]

what the hell

[cold veldt]

i suddenly have acquired a new life goal

[ivory ridge]

bhamber no

.

[cold veldt]

i'm gonna reach levels of betrayal that MHD can only dream of

[lean isle]

That's an interaction of all times.

[ivory ridge]

ill shut down that dream by nomming to kill myself actually

[worldly jasper]

-# Or just simplify things by swapping with the snake charmer in the first place

[pseudo fulcrum]

Holy shit

That's not even that hard to pull off

[next vault]

you just need a barber and an outed philo

and ph can help you

[versed junco]

PH loses if they help you on this one

[next vault]

that's the thing, they don't know you're going to betray them :)

"hey, can you create a barber?"

[versed junco]

Well we've officially stopped pit-hags everywhere from making barbers

So that's nice

[next vault]

But whatever you dodo not I repeat do not target Karl, don't ask why

[versed junco]

Karl HATES being barber he will cry

"Oh I could turn him into the klutz then-"
"NO!"

[next vault]

dont ask why, seriously, I have a play

but it must remain a secret

I do wonder

If you yourself kill the barber, and not execute it

You just can't do this

it has to be executed

[versed junco]

I mean can't you just

Wait a day

And kill yourself then

Unless the pit-hag changes the demon I suppose

[next vault]

If kill

You become the and someone becomes (example)
goes first by night order, you can't become an
Day starts, the speaks up, town executes them

and for fangu let's just say you were the starting klutz

who got jumped to in n2

so

you need the barber to be executed

even then

if the ST does barber in night order

you can't do this play

which is very sad

[versed junco]

Ah yes

A sad day

By which I mean great because this isn't going to become a common occurrence

[next vault]

I remember the time I became the good no dashii in a twin pair

but the ST was lame and ruled that if a demon is executed while being the good part of a twin pair good loses

so we had to wait for a day and then just win

[muted crescent]

love how the wiki stealth advocates for this interaction

[versed junco]

The STRANGE situation!

[spiral pollen]

good SC picking a good demon is quite powerful actually

[muted crescent]

@merry gorge copying your question for today:
If you could pick any one person from any point in history (including modern day) to play Clocktower with, who would it be?
Then also same question, but this time you pick them to storytell

[lost thistle]

or die to a witch

[lost thistle]

yeah but you’re a lot less likely to know who the snake charmer is because they probably aren’t claiming snake charmer

[foggy grotto]

once saw this try to happen but they swapped with their neighbor…who was now the no dashii…

[karmic rose]

this is haunting me so much now thanks all

[cold veldt]

bluffed this just now

i could've done this but i didn't and i lost for it lol

i cold-called @next marlin as philo with my dreamer bluff lmao

[versed junco]

It's starting

[next marlin]

it's been done several times

[versed junco]

SnVarmageddon has begun

[next marlin]

it's not a new strat like at all

it just happens exactly once per group lol

[versed junco]

I have no comeback therefore I shall pretend you didn't say that

[cold veldt]

next time i'll do the real SNV's Fatal Flaw play 😈

i can't believe though that the very first time i played snv after learning about this strat, all the pieces happened to line up

[next marlin]

except that you had twins

[cold veldt]

if i did the real thing i would've just had to kill one of them and then get myself executed that day

but yeah with the bluff i had to be like "uwaaaa i got too excited my bad squad"

[karmic rose]

[5/13] what's your favorite house rule/house jinx?

[lost thistle]

amnesiac guesses aren’t affected by the vortox

[dense moat]

Alejo Snake Charmer :)

[karmic rose]

question inspired by the house jinx "a summoned Kazali learns which players are which minions", which gives a reason to summon a kazali

[cyan reef]

the best house rules are things like correct info being learned when Poppy Grower dies with a Vortox in play

95% of house rules are bad 😛

[karmic rose]

but then I wouldn't have played that game where I woke alongside my fellow minion and learned the lunatic when the poppy grower died!

[cyan reef]

it's not a necessary house rule, but it at least doesn't break the game or fundamental change intended interactions

[karmic rose]

that was like the 1% of the time I liked PG/Vortox RAW tbf

[cyan reef]

there's really only upsides and very little downsides

[karmic rose]

it was just a great game 🥲

[cyan reef]

most house rules have very little thought put into it, they're weak fixes for otherwise poor script building, or a fundamental misunderstanding as to why an interaction works the way it does (I don't see this much anymore, but not allowing executions of dead players on scripts with S&V comes to mind)

[lost thistle]

what about all the stuff from the garden of djinn competition though,

seat 7 🥰

[cyan reef]

most of those go a bit beyond a mere house rule I think...with my interview with Edd at F3C he mentioned that one of Ben's goal with the World Cup was to showcase just how hard it is to come up with a new rule/ability in the game and have it not be very game breaking or otherwise very complex to work in

I'll admit I've watched next to none of the World Cup, but to my understanding, a lot of those scripts just don't really work well, or add a lot of extra time, etc

I was talking to my buddy Manny about this and he mentioned that the best World Cup scripts are the ones that minimize how much is actually being changed...the Ballad of Seat 7 being a good example of that

the game still plays more or less the same in terms of interactions

but most Bootlegger rules outside of the World Cup are tweaking fundamental character interactions and abilities, such as the Alejo rule, not generally the kind of thing the World Cup is going for

[dry sluice]

It's not something I'd recommend to other groups, but my personal favorite houserule is "No private communication."

[tacit fiber]

woah

interesting

[lost thistle]

matron

[karmic rose]

oh yeah I played in a group with that rule once... It was interesting

[lost thistle]

you’re describing the matron

[karmic rose]

TB + st is the matron lol

my actual favorite house rule is:

"In a game with a mixture of new and experienced players, mentioning an off-script character means you must donate $1 to the snack fund ($3 for atheist/wizard)."

[dry sluice]

"Last night I foolishly chose--" "KNIGHT MENTIONED FOOL MENTIONED RELINQUISH TWO DOLLARS"

[cyan reef]

really groups in general should be spending more time discussing as a group

[karmic rose]

my groups kept being like "I'd like to juggle..." and it's baby's first TB for 3 of the players

[cyan reef]

private chats are great and fun and important to the game, but people end up prioritizing most of their discussion into private chats and completely overlooking the group chat (this paradigm of having more group chat time also makes more sense when you think about how madness is meant to work)

[sour harness]

Sure but I'd rather preserve player agency

[karmic rose]

do you find that happens more online? I find my in-person group usually strikes a pretty fair balance of group and private

[sour harness]

There's a balance to it

[karmic rose]

like usually private chats will be the first ~half of discussion time on days 1-3, with public chats making up the second half on those days and filling out most of the day in the mid/late game

[dry sluice]

Even in games w/ private comms, I usually see mostly public chats with people occasionally crossing the circle to whisper. Definitely not an entire time period carved out for private chats. But I guess that's because my group is tilted towards games with no private comms.

[cyan reef]

oh, for sure, players can play how they'd like

I do think there are ways the ST can encourage it though, mostly by running their games more quickly

[cyan reef]

it's kind of hard to think about now because the online was of course influenced by the in-person game, but now, for many groups, the in-person game has become influenced by the online game, essentially watering it down

even just a few moments ago, on the Patreon server, there was mention of someone who plays their in-person games by going into different physical rooms for private chats, and didn't seem to take kindly to it being pointed out that that's vastly different to how the game was intended

[karmic rose]

yeah fair, I find that in-person there are pretty natural incentives to having at least some of the chatter be public

[cyan reef]

it's different for sure, it might just depend on the specific group meta, and how influenced they are by online

"3 for 3s" for example is a very online thing that now often permeates in person games, unfortunately

and you may still see those nominations that are vague, like, "There's an evil ping on this person" and the person asks what they are and nobody will say, and then they're getting executed without even knowing what they're defending against

I really want to try to run the game as intended where there is no accusation, only the defense (technically, and accusation still happens, it just needs to be before the nomination)

[karmic rose]

but it's definitely also fun to see how clocktower evolves between groups!! that people love this game so much as to houserule it heavily/homebrew entire scripts/adopt it into workable longtext formats is crazy

[cyan reef]

I'm beginning to think it's a pretty fun game that lots of people enjoy 🙂

[karmic rose]

🤯

[cyan reef]

I remember a few years ago when Clocktower Con DC was being organized that it wasn't likely to do well and likely wouldn't last

and now they're planning on their fourth year in a bigger venue after this year's sold out in about an hour

not to mention all the other cons that exist, big and small

[karmic rose]

maybe I'll be able to get tickets this year....

[cyan reef]

F3C is great, highly recommend it

[karmic rose]

like even small divergences (my group will spill into the hallway outside the room we play in, largely because the acoustics of the room are awful) are pretty inherent to changing settings

and that's neat!!

[cyan reef]

something Final Three Con really drilled into me was how much the shape of the area influences the game...some of the games I played in, the circle was the room, other than the ST area, so there was definitely no leaving the circle

most rooms were shared with another circle, unfortunately very loud but still ultimately limited space

the pickup games area had much more space so there was a bit more room to get away to a reasonable extent

I played in a 40 player BMR game

that was a thing

lol

[karmic rose]

was that the "if more than N gossips happen in a day, something bad might happen" game

with $N \approx 5$

[cyan reef]

no, other than the duplication of characters (up to two per character token) everything was rules as written pretty much

I think there was only one actual Gossip

[fast anchor]

everyone else i either went to F3C with or talked about it with didn't play the 40p bmr because "hell no" - how'd that go?

[cyan reef]

I thought it was fun, and I'd never do it again, lol (though apparently for some it was their second time so they obviously enjoyed it)

ultimately, it's too chaotic to take too seriously

try working out why 7 people died in the night, lol

with 2 minute conversations before nominations open

part of it though is I wanted to play in a game ran by Jon G, the original "rules guy" for TPI before Edd

people from his generation of Clocktower run the game very differently than what people got used to online, which is part of the things I've been talking about, lol

very fast days, nomination triggers only a defense, etc

next year I'll try to get into a "normal" game with him

I was also sat between Ekin and Bruce and that was a blast

I was on one side of the big, elongated circle, and the entire rest of my non-Traveler evil team (5 other Minions and 2 Demons) was on the far side, so there was pretty much no communicating with my evil team, lol

I was the Assassin

oh, so there were some small rules changes

each Demon only learned 4 of the 6 Minions, I think also they didn't learn each other

so, I held on to my ability for a couple of nights, then the night I was going to use it, I got killed by the Shabaloth who didn't see me as a Minion

then I got regurgitated

I didn't think I'd survive again but if I did, I'd kill myself to make it look like obviously I was getting killed again by the Demon...instead I got killed by the Demon again, lol

[karmic rose]

a Shab??? you're telling that the 40p BMR wasn't double Zombuul?

[cyan reef]

we won in the end...we were getting to the end game (Because 9 people alive is pretty much the end game in this setup, lol), and the Shabaloth was killed by the Gossip, around the same time the Po remembered that she could charge, lol

[feral snow]

I’m trying so hard to run it like this. I wish my group supported it more

[cyan reef]

so on the final night, the Po got three kills and brought the game down to 2 players alive

oh, best interaction of the game

night 2 was a Minstrel night

so no kills night 2

Doomsayer gets introduced

[lone spire]

Heh the cursed Minstrel proc

[cyan reef]

Minstrel is the first one killed by a Doomsayer

Professor resurrects Minstrel the next night...then a second Professor tried to resurrect someone, except a Minion was executed the previosu day, so now with an alive Minstrel, the second Professor was drunk

just brilliant

Minstrel gets immediately killed by Doomsayer again 😆

[lone spire]

I don’t remember laughing as hard as I did when Bruce died twice to the Doomsayer

In a game of clocktower

[cyan reef]

it was fantastic, I really did have a hell of a time sitting between you two

and you were my evil Voudon and I didn't know until we both got up to celebrate at the end 😄

[lone spire]

That was so funny

[cyan reef]

everyone just trusted I was the Exorcist

[lone spire]

I knew obviously the Demons but none of the minions

I got Sam killed as the Exorcist on accident

[cyan reef]

nobody asked about my Exorcist picks which I was desperately trying to remember in my head and trying to get it to match up with being killed the resurrected

somehow I was confirmed by a Gambler who gambled me on the Minstrel night, and then again later and died from it

[lone spire]

Cause I snitched a bunch of people I thought were good kills to the demons and the evil gunslinger

(Who doom said me)

[karmic rose]

yeah the natural instinct of a bunch of excited players to go through things in detail 😭

[cyan reef]

anyway, if you're at F3C, I recommend giving it a try, it's fun, even if it's just the one time

I might try to run both my next in person games and online games with no accusation and see how it goes

[lone spire]

My favorite house rule (other than my World Cup one) that I had to come up with for one of my expansion mock scripts is that “Lil’ Monsta can kill the current babysitter and this will trigger another round of voting for babysitter.”

It’s on this one: https://botc-scripts.azurewebsites.net/script/6195/1.0.0

[muted crescent]

[5/13] Since we're already here, let's make the question about your favorite and least favorite house rules you've seen

[muted crescent]

I used to run botc like him back in 2019-2020, that was back then the only demonstration of how to play was their videos lol

[wispy nest]

I personally don’t like alejo snake charmer

As you are risking your self to become demon from clearing someone as not the demon

[karmic rose]

Hm I'm not sure I have a least favorite house rule, but I generally dislike it when a script introduces a bunch of new houserules/clarifications, especially if the script also has non-trivial jinxes.

my brain has space to learn maybe 3 custom interactions per game (though once I know a jinx/houserule it's pretty intuitive)

[wispy nest]

I do hate jinxes but they have to happen

I think some jinxes are just bad

[tardy wyvern]

not sure if this counts as a “house rule” but one of my friends refuses to run typhon in the normal way (since we use a digital grimoire) and just shows minions minion tokens from the start

like hello???? i’d like a bluff please???

[sour harness]

Typhon lines need their bluffs 😭

[cyan reef]

this is definitely a house rule, and I think falls perfectly under my concerns earlier of people changing things when they don't understand what the original purpose even is

[cyan reef]

one time I ran S&V and someone asked if I was going to be running Alejo Snake Charmer and I was almost offended, lol

[torpid mist]

I do have a fondness for house jinxes that address more niche interactions, mainly because they won't bend the game around them if done well and they can give a script/character room to breathe

Stuff like "If the Engineer creates a Fang Gu and 0 Outsiders are in play, the Engineer becomes an Outsider."

This does nothing in most cases, but it recontextualizes choosing Fang Gu in base 0 games just enough to not just make it an optimal pick (since creating a FG in b0 means it's an EN*CAP:TD Demon with no benefits)

[tardy wyvern]

engineer could have a custom jinx with almost every demon i’m ngl

[fleet hedge]

I would argue you are already risking keeping a Fang Gu (2nd most powerful demon in the game) so I don't think that's really needed

Also it gives the Engineer a way to become evil which probably isn't great

[karmic rose]

yea I don't mind stuff like "the monk protects players from the demon during the day as well"

ultimately some house rules and debates therein feel like people discussing whether adding pizza toppings ruin the chef's original intent in making the pizza

[fleet hedge]

The only houserules I like is probably Lleech host registering as evil to Lycan, causing Virgin to malfunction etc.

But that's mostly bad script design

[tardy wyvern]

my favorite house rule is amne questions being vortox proof

[fleet hedge]

I keep going back and forth on whether amne guesses should be affected by droison

ST can obviously just choose that so it's not a houserule

[tardy wyvern]

i think it’s okay to do that if you’re giving them a bogus ability anyway

like if they’re just the drunk

[cyan reef]

even these, I mostly prefer just better script design, lol...but also, this one isn't so bad and I wouldn't mind it, I think, as an official jinx or something

[fast anchor]

I think the houserule I personally use the most is Amne guesses being immune to droison/vortox

[lone spire]

With the new Lycan, you can just make the Lleech host Faux Paw, so no longer a custom jinx necessary tbh.

[fast anchor]

true, but it comes with ups and downs - namely the host registering as evil to everyone else

[cold veldt]

my least favourite houserule is droison proof poppy grower because it shouldn’t have to be a houserule 🔥

[fast anchor]

i've grown to like a droisoned PG dying not informing the evil team on some scripts (okay maybe it's just on night-vision goggles) because if evil doesn't know where the droison is it can solve things for them

but it can be a feelsbad

(it does mean you can fool a lunatic for a bit longer though which is fun)

[lone spire]

I personally don’t mind this as much as most people but shrug

People tend to think if they have evil pings on someone they can’t be a Lleech host (flawed assumption that Lleeches will always host a good player)

(So it’s more of a problem for evil when people are hunting for evils and less of a problem when they are hunting for Lleech hosts which ultimately balances it out over the long run)

[fast anchor]

that's fair

[karmic rose]

I think if you've got a script that's otherwise solid but just has one jank interaction, houseruling that interaction is something I can live with lolol

especially if that houserule doesn't break the intent of the characters involved

[dry sluice]

Agreed. Like Virgin + Pit-Hag really wants the housejinx "Virgins can't proc themselves."
In general houserules are usually a good thing. Especially Amne questions being immune to misinfo. And if you run a game without Alejo Snake Charmer, enjoy me picking myself every single night

[tardy wyvern]

so do you pick yourself every night other than n1 when there is alejo snake charmer

[fleet hedge]

Personally I like to maintain token integrity but yeah that's fair

[ivory ridge]

that and alch being immune to vortox

[fleet hedge]

I swear new Alchemist is immune to Vortox

[tardy wyvern]

it’s undefined atm i’m pretty sure

[fleet hedge]

Because they don't learn information anymore or something

[ivory ridge]

undef*ned

[tardy wyvern]

personally i think alch being able to be vortoxed is hilarious on the right script

[fleet hedge]

Alejo snake charmer is for the weak

[tardy wyvern]

goblin + boomdandy

[ivory ridge]

oh i think that's the one i use the most

1. alejo's snarmer
2. healthy sober amne guess
3. alch vortox

idk if anything else is noticable

[fleet hedge]

Alejo SC gets rid of the whole risk aspect of SC

You don't have to pick N1

In fact, it can be better to self on the first couple nights then try to fish for the demon later

[ivory ridge]

right but hear me out

i don't like to play a miserable game

[tardy wyvern]

1. vortox proof amne guess
2. vortox proof poppygrower
3. i don’t houserule very often ngl

[ivory ridge]

oh right droisoned/false pg

i was about to put that in there

but then i realized something

[tardy wyvern]

by miserable game are you talking from the perspective of the former demon or the new demon

[fleet hedge]

The same thing can still happen night 2 though

[fleet hedge]

Likely from the minions

[ivory ridge]

i don't run pg

out of like, principles

[ivory ridge]

everyone

[fleet hedge]

Tbh droisoned PG houserule isn't great because like skill issue

Evil should try to coordinate not killing a droisoned poppygrower

[ivory ridge]

reread your sentence

please 😭

[tardy wyvern]

i personally think snake charmed demon is hilarious

but that is definitely an unpopular opinion

[ivory ridge]

ok so here's my opinion

it's not hilarious because of like a few reason

like it's not just about the evil team is getting fucked

like that don't really matter that much

but it's about both good and evil now cease to introduce play to a halt and just have to 'get through the game'

like it's not about evil winning anymore, but how much do you stall before you get to rerack

and i do, in fact, valuable my time with my friends

[tardy wyvern]

are you specifically talking about day 1 snarm hits

[ivory ridge]

good player feels like it's undeserved win

evil player feels like they got unlucky

[ivory ridge]

yeah specifically day 1

because it's a pure game of chance

[tardy wyvern]

ok in that case i agree with you a bit

[ivory ridge]

like if the snarmer did that n2 after like

getting info

then yeah, skill issue, get fucked

but like at least it's like "yeah deserved"

not just "how long will this game take to end"

[tardy wyvern]

i still think if the snake charmer wants that to not happen they can pick themself on n1

but i see your point

[ivory ridge]

but some will, and it will still happen

because expected value and what not

i think my problem is the punishment is a major feels bad, not only to the snake charmer (which like lowkey deserved even on n1)

but to everyone else who are playing too

i will point out though that this is a pure altruistic argument

[fast anchor]

I actually quite like a Vortoxed Alchemist learning an in-play Minion

[ivory ridge]

so yes you can disagree and i dont mind

[ivory ridge]

oh?

elaborate 👀

[fast anchor]

it's a neat wrinkle of complexity that's very fun

[ivory ridge]

hmmm

[fast anchor]

also because it's an intended interaction on Now You Don't and that script is hysterical

[ivory ridge]

my personal opinion on this matter is

it depends on script

some are built with that in mind and some isn’t (in which case run accordingly)

but yeah i get it

[cyan reef]

this can thought be quite subjective, and I think at least in part comes down to group metas and personal attitudes (not saying bad attitudes, but just different attitudes, which may or may not be possible to adjust)

[ivory ridge]

i only choose that jinx because its one of the more reasonable one

[dry sluice]

not always, but frequently, yes

[cyan reef]

like, if you play in a group where being outed evil means getting ignored, and nobody ever bluffs snake charming, etc, then yeah, people are definitely going to like it less

[ivory ridge]

nobody bluff snarmer d1 though 😔

i said this because i am a person who always said im running alejo and forgot about it

the majority of my snv game career is no alejo 💀

[cyan reef]

there's groups out there that will bluff fake snake charmings

[ivory ridge]

probably

hmmm

the next time i roll evil on snv in my person group, ill try it

[tardy wyvern]

I thick this also contributes to my mentality because I have the luxury of playing with people that I’m very good friends with and don’t do this

[cyan reef]

my group doesn't really do faking snake charmings (maybe some day...), but several people won't out the Minions right away (it's a valid strategy to keep them in the dark, they might accidentally end up pushing on the new Demon), and even if essentially outed evil, many players will still chat with them and include them...with the right attitude, being outed evil can be fun

[dry sluice]

I envy people who can have such an attitude, even around good friends. Being outed evil is miserable for me

[cyan reef]

it's fair that despite everything, it won't be everyone's cup of tea

[ivory ridge]

come to canada, habibi

[sour harness]

📇 mizu knows at least a little arabic

(or is that in multiple languages)

[feral snow]

It’s primarily Arabic

Mizu doesn’t speak Arabic

[sour harness]

at least a little

[feral snow]

“A little” is carrying that sentence

[sour harness]

well yes

it wasnt a very strong statement

[next marlin]

The reason I am "more of an advocate for Alejo Snake Charmer than Alejo is" is specifically the SC bluff situation

I think a solid healthy snv meta has somewhere around 50-50 bluffed vs real snakecharms, which is on the more radical end of ideal ratios but if nothing else a good counterbalance to what newer metas tend to end up with

Unless a group is experienced in a way I don't think any real group is, it isn't realistically possible to maintain levels of snakecharm bluffs necessary for game health with raw SC because raw n1 snakecharms are incredibly metaconfirmable

In particular you basically can't have ceremad good players claim to be N1 snakecharmed with raw SC which is imo vital to making SC madness functional

There are other arguments that have been done to death but I think this particular issue is one people tend to overlook in counterarguments to the rule that are tbh frankly somewhat dismissive, because they refer to a concept of bluffed snakecharms without working through the implications of how to encourage snakecharm bluffs and what games people knowingly or unknowingly push towards running by way of the ST decisions they make and player decisions they support

[ivory ridge]

yalla my friend 😔

yes this is me immediately spending the card i got yesterday from you

[feral snow]

Are you’re trying to be offensive?

[ivory ridge]

no

https://tenor.com/view/sadhamstergirl-gif-4231717927828306245

wait were you

[feral snow]

No

[ivory ridge]

yeah then its solved

i hate multilanguage keyboard

[ivory ridge]

so true 🔥

like at best it can drive a few execution which can be worth it as town get snuffed

but this come at a cost of you outing evil and what not

[next marlin]

Oh it's just that a raw n1 bluff doesn't work really

n2 onwards do that because n2 onwards a minion has enough gamestate knowledge to know what'll work for two days

[ivory ridge]

thats what i was saying 😔

[next marlin]

You were saying something else and that difference is important to my argument -- why do you have an [N] tag

[cyan reef]

I'm not sure I completely understand the argument, but I think it's definitely flawed that a house rule is required to ultimately obtain a "healthy S&V meta"

I think maybe it's working under the assumption that a bluffed fake charming needs to hold the entire game?

[next marlin]

It's working under the assumption it should usually not be publicly disprovable the same day it's claimed

or at least publicly incredibly-narrow-possibility

[cyan reef]

yeah, I'm not sure how that works, or why the Alejo rule is necessary for it, or why it ultimately matters tbh