secret thing

[tacit fiber]

soooo

idk anymore

if we used that the minion team would’ve died

I think that a judge fucks those dynamics up more

the only reason I see this is voting

if someone gets 9 votes in a 12 then they’re probably good

[ivory ridge]

i think that a player participating in game want to have some change over dynamic

[tacit fiber]

they centralize the game around them until used

[tacit fiber]

if there’s a judge then it could def be the evil team giving the evil judge a reason to pass on the demon

[ivory ridge]

that's what evil judge is supposed to do i fear

but also this can backfire later (as in after judge is used and potentially exile)

ok here's my list

do not that i'm pretty sure i haven't play with bishop before (but it sound ass)

[tacit fiber]

what is this teirlist

[ivory ridge]

travelller ranking

[tacit fiber]

if it’s powerlevel than sure

[ivory ridge]

no it's mostly about how

cool i think they are

[tacit fiber]

Judge is the vizier

[ivory ridge]

you know this tier list make realize i do not like gnome

next time if i slot in a traveller im doing judge or bone collector

[tacit fiber]

minions, which are designed to hurt good, are designed in Judge’s design space

[ivory ridge]

judge is not vizier 😔

[tacit fiber]

it’s literally OPG vizier

[ivory ridge]

you can uh, exile the judge, for example

it's a very different dynamic

i think of it like, sailor vs pacifist

i'll say this, looking at this tier list, i think i very much favored opg/passive character

opg has a very cool idea of "predicting when you are about to be exiled to use your ability"

this is what differentiate vizier and judge massively imo, a judge have to play with its social dynamic very carefully as both alignment to be able to push its world

vizier is outed evil by definition and do not care about it

[tacit fiber]

so either

• Let the judge be the OPG Vizier controlling votes and noms until it’s used. The good Judge only being used well if they have more information than the entirety of the good team combined. The evil Judge able to do whatever they want including the most cringe fucked up strategy on its home script of executing the demon d1 and then judge slamming someone on d2 OR
• Be a dickhead and remove someone from the game instantly because you don’t like their traveller choice

[ivory ridge]

(this is more or less true with bone collector, but less hard because you can out evil, then get exiled without hurting your team)

[ivory ridge]

the first point is not true

[tacit fiber]

I’ve seen this be true every time I’ve seen a judge

[ivory ridge]

this is the same way of everyone needing to vote optimally for flower girl information

every time

[tacit fiber]

they’ve used, hurt the good team, then get exiled

because they don’t have all the info

[ivory ridge]

that's a skill issue i fear

[tacit fiber]

surely after 6 fucking good judges who didn’t help good at all at some level it’s not a skill issue

[ivory ridge]

6 is not really statistically significant as a sample size

[tacit fiber]

sure it isn’t

[ivory ridge]

i also think it's about agency, as a traveller, you should have the agency to push world that you personally believe in

that's the same way as saying banshee fuck up voting

[tacit fiber]

but why would your agency trump everyone’s elses in the game

[ivory ridge]

it does not???

it's 1 execution?

[coarse fern]

Butcher

[tacit fiber]

so it does…

[tacit fiber]

this is true for banshee because it has all the info

[ivory ridge]

except it does not 😭

[tacit fiber]

it becomes confirmed good and gets all the info

[ivory ridge]

evil banshee has happen all the time

as in, banshee who voted for evil

@next marlin how often does this happen in clockwork cyborg

[modern plume]

Dullahan Under The Willows enters the chat

[coarse fern]

Is banshee even on cc

[tacit fiber]

yes

[coarse fern]

I thought it had RK

[zenith lotus]

nope

[tacit fiber]

Banshees are the only baiters that die in widow

[tacit fiber]

sure this is also because Clockwork Cyborg’s possibility space is enough to nullify all of goods info if evil wants

[ivory ridge]

and also saying 'judge deny execution therefore it strip people of agency' is not equivalent.
something something leviathan something something state of nature: when different needs intersect, a conflict occur and resolution does not need to appease everything. in botc, judge does not have information in exchange for its power to push execution. it is up to players who has the monopoly of information to convince judge to push their world instead.

for every game that 'judge push the wrong world', there exist a non-traveller game where evil win due to good solving wrong despite 1 good getting it right but aren't able to push it through

imo seeing judge as an obstacle that exists because that person is surely wrong compare to town's perspective is the wrong angle

judge should instead be view as a tool for player (you) to convince them and help them assist you with your worldbuilding, even if it allign with town

(maybe a judge will also save you! fr fr)

[modern plume]

"it is up to players who has the monopoly of information to convince judge to push their world instead."
That's only true if the Judge is Good? If the Judge is Evil, there isn't much sense to the idea of agency of players in convincing the Judge otherwise. And when the nomination has happened and the Judge has made their decree, it's already too late to exile them, so they can only be exiled prior to ever making such a decision.

[ivory ridge]

i mean yeah? that's what traveller are. if there are no risk of the judge being evil, the entire dynamic would, fail? i think it's similar to someone being announced vizier in an alchemist script, if judge are meant to be fully trusted, balancing issue aside, it is arguable that their own agency sink further as they become a tool solely for town.

regarding execution, i also think that this is the same with a lot of traveller. name a character that doesn't have an impact on the game before being exiled (excluding deviant). but even if i bought your point and ignore that fact, execution are discrete, regular interval. every execution period is different than the previous day based on new information and night death, and therefore town is able to evaluate the judge and the potential risk. conversely, the judge then also have an interesting mission: they are supposed to read the room and do whatever they want (or not) to help their team. don't you think this back and forth, ebb and flow dynamic is interesting to witness? it's not like town either exile judge day 1 or let them live to f3.

idk i think i dislike the fact that people here think judge either have no or all power, ignoring the fact that it being an opg is intentionally creating internal conflict that is like, super cool actually.

i want to yap a bit more about how players generally treat traveller and how bone collector and judge help amend that (a bit) but i just went outside so maybe later

[modern plume]

"if there are no risk of the judge being evil, the entire dynamic would, fail?"
That doesn't matter to the argument and instead switches to a nonrelevant point. You argued that there was no issue with player agency on the basis that players can convince the judge, to which I pointed out that's only true if the Judge is Good; going to the point regarding "The dynamic would fail if otherwise" doesn't defend the argument you put forward, saying any point on the dynamic and how it ought to be makes no point regarding whether players have agency to convince a judge

[cyan reef]

I'm not sure exactly what the discussion is but it seems like an interesting amount of words for being a pretty straightforward Traveler?

[modern plume]

"even if i bought your point"
Which point would that be? I haven't made a claim that isn't address an issue with the claim put forward that players can convince a Judge, which isn't true if the Judge is Evil. Everything else brought up doesn't address this, so the point still stands, the supposed claim of agency in convincing a Judge only holds when the Judge is Good.

[ivory ridge]

i just like judge 🥺

[cyan reef]

yeah, I mean, it's a fine Traveler

[ivory ridge]

anyway i’ll respond in a bit

busy rn

[cyan reef]

I don't love it, I don't hate it, lol

[ivory ridge]

i personally like it more than gnome

[cyan reef]

people online, in my experience, have some very strange views about Travelers (though I'm thinking more and more this is true about the game in general)

[ivory ridge]

i find people end up using gnome as a semi-butcher in my club and idk how i feel about it

[modern plume]

Judge seems fine with me. The only times I have issue is the same issue with other Travellers; don't put it in games with some very bad synergy with certain roles.

[ivory ridge]

thats an ST problem

[modern plume]

I had to explain to a few people why it's not a good idea to put Judge with Saint or Goblin-

[ivory ridge]

yeah thats really just an ST problem

same vein with Saint Cere on script for script builder

[cold veldt]

evil judge can straight up win the game with mastermind and it's an interaction on the script it's recommended for. BMR is interesting in that way lol

[modern plume]

I mean, the Saint Cere problem is similar to Cere + ET. Cerenovus could just mess with a Good Twin all they like, and that's on SnV

[cyan reef]

generally when discussing most Travelers, or characters in general, I assume we're mainly talking about where they fit on their home script

[modern plume]

It's mean, but not game breaking

[cyan reef]

Judge is a recommended Traveler for BMR, not TB

so I don't focus too much on how bad Judge is with Saint lol

[modern plume]

It's sensible that there's no Jinxes for Travellers, since if a Jinx would plausibly be necessary, just, don't have the Traveller in play. But a funny interaction is Organ Grinder + Gunslinger.

Is Gunslinger allowed to try to shoot a non-voter and their shot fizzles, or is the ST suppose to shake their head and ask them to try again?

[ivory ridge]

i think this is more relating to balance of the game. actually ill address the “even if i bought your point first”. this is relating to the dynamic of convincing judge failing. my point is that even if you are not meant to convince judge, you can still see if the judge is acting sus between nominations or if you have info against them to decide between exiling or not. do note that a judge who is trying to remain neutral probably wont make rash decisions. but on top of that, even if judge is somehow uncounterable, that’s just how some traveller is assuming not exiling day 1. there is an unfair amount of burden place on the judge compare to like, gnome or harlot. this is my other 2 “even if” to ensure that if one argument fail, two still remains if not properly addressed (classic college debate tactics).

ok now on to the issue of convincing judge and whether it is feasible. ill first talk about the context in which traveller exists. traveller exist in a place of inherent distrust, and what a lot of social dynamics tend to play out for them is that they don’t get talk to or shared information. i personally think judge does partially change this because a judge in a vacuum is whatever the percentage of random execution is. but you are incentivize to talk to the judge because

1. if the judge is good, they can help the good team
2. if the judge is evil, them deciding to save someone (or not to) could socially help you out in term of finding evil. this doesn’t need to happen after the judge use their ability. sometimes, a judge refusing to use it can be enough of a social tell for exile and can create a net benefit to good
3. if no good talk to a good judge, they are prone to evil influence due to evil player talking with them using fake information. this is somewhat theoretical, but i can see this being a reason for both team to talk to the judge.
   i admit though, the dynamics of convincing judge is different than banshee for example.

[lucid crag]

girl i ain't readin that

/j I read it

[ivory ridge]

i reach word limit so i cant yap more 😭

[modern plume]

Since you've gone through all this effort to refute some claim I supposedly made: at what time did I ever make any comment regarding the balance of the Judge?

[lucid crag]

as a recently exiled scapegoat I can attest to town not trusting travelers though won't talk more about it

[dry sluice]

Maybe one day TPI will release a traveler that I would be happy putting into a game. Of course, this traveler would need to hurt whichever team they join, like an outsider.

[lucid crag]

it's not a refute

[modern plume]

"this is my other 2 “even if” to ensure that if one argument fail, two still remains if not properly addressed (classic college debate tactics)."

" actually ill address the “even if i bought your point first”."

"ok now on to the issue of convincing judge and whether it is feasible. "

[lucid crag]

idk it seems like making a mountain out of a molehill

I guess I could be reading social cues wrong

[ivory ridge]

i think its more of a refutation of a refutation of the idea of “convincing the judge to help you fr fr”

[ivory ridge]

SO TRUE

you said this but you’re cooking btw, if outsider is hypothetically net 0 benefit, adding outsider traveller is good actually (tm)

[lucid crag]

it's just got to be a traveler that has it's ability trigger on exile

[modern plume]

I think it is as well, since as far as I can tell, this is a non-sequitur. Mizu was addressing an argument 'X' and made a claim 'Y' which is regarding convincing the Judge. I pointed a problem with 'Y', and it appears Mizu is continuing to argue in favor of 'X' which I never commented of.

[lucid crag]

each night pick a player, they die with you

type shiz lol

[ivory ridge]

thats a very op good

[tacit fiber]

can kill the demon

[lucid crag]

that's the point yes

[modern plume]

This is just Assassin but without the guarantee and also more obvious, lol.

[ivory ridge]

probably due to the influence of the previous conversation relating to judge then, but eh, im out of juice for this character

[modern plume]

Wait, this ability is even worse is they are Good and next to a Tea Lady

Bluwe's hypothetical traveller is a Good Demon

[ivory ridge]

but yeah, the problem of outsider traveller is that simply they’re not fun

[modern plume]

Unless its kill trigger is meant to be like Lycan's and they have to die for it to work

[lucid crag]

Each night, choose a living player (different to last night): if you die, they die too.

[dry sluice]

If people would rather sit out for the rest of the game than play as an outsider, then that's rather damning for the overall game design of BoTC.

[modern plume]

This is hilarious. Imagine this traveller chooses the Demon, then has to go, and the moment they get up to leave the game is over because the Demon drops dead

Even better if this a Lleech game and they chose the host.

[lucid crag]

well leaving wouldn't kill lmfao

[modern plume]

Just a domino effect of death

[lean isle]

Outsider traveller sounds quite challenging to make. There gotta be something to avoid just insta-exiling them as good.

[ivory ridge]

if you are exiled, your team is poisoned 🔥 /s

[lucid crag]

on exile effects gotta be the way

[dry sluice]

or a Puzzlemaster-like clause where exiling doesn't clean up your mess

[muted crescent]

Idk

[lucid crag]

players you talk to have to wear a blindfold, if you are exiled you may permanently put a blindfold on any player

quality well designed traveler just don't think about it

[modern plume]

Accidentally permanently blindfold the Demon. Every kill is now a question of the Demon's memory

[lucid crag]

is kind of that

[tidal quiver]

I've done absolutely no critical thinking but "each night*, a good player dies" or something where you're incentivized to keep them alive and can learn both objective information about the gamestate and about the alignment of the traveler itself

[modern plume]

Technically nothing stops it from having no one die so long as a Good player is already dead.

Not nice for an ST to do, but it is possible

[lucid crag]

each night pick a player, if they lied the most yesterday learn their alignment, otherwise learn false info

[spiral pollen]

I think butcher is one of the coolest travellers in the game tbh

[modern plume]

That would only work in text

[spiral pollen]

Butcher is cool cause its really powerful as both alignments but not game destroying if evil (like judge is)

[lucid crag]

what's different between this and cere madness

[tidal quiver]

tbh I think judge is more interesting on non-bmr scripts where science happens?

[modern plume]

Cere madness only requires paying attention to the mad player.
This idea requires paying attention to everyone and everything they say, since it specifies "If they lied the most", meaning more than any other player

[tidal quiver]

yeah then you have to count each statement players make

[modern plume]

Also, what stops the traveller from babbling a non-stop stream of lies during the day?

[lucid crag]

just do it off vibes

[modern plume]

And making themself the biggest liar, so they know they always get a flip

"Hey everyone, I'd like to announce I'm not a traveller, I'm not a traveller, I'm not a traveller, I'm not a traveller-"

[lucid crag]

st can ignore the role text

and just cheat

actually

outsider trav

"The st can break the rules to help your team"

this is garbage

[tidal quiver]

how about "each night, a player of your alignment dies"

it's probably horrible in 1 minion games but alas

[lucid crag]

finally, a traveler demon needs to kill /j

[fleet hedge]

I recently played a couple IRL games with it and I have acquired a hatred towards it

I would say Apprentice but I think at this point everyone knows how shit it is

Scapegoat is a close second though, unless the script has enough information that can be used to check the alignment of Travellers, in which case I actually find it quite fun (it can be alright on TB sometimes, but like only if it's near an Empath)

[foggy grotto]

Matron (online only)

[fleet hedge]

The problem with Judge is that a good Judge provides an incredibly insignificant amount of value to their team unless they are kept alive into the endgame, but at that point an evil judge is game losing.

[ivory ridge]

matron in person is a jolly good time

[fleet hedge]

The other problem is Mastermind

[ivory ridge]

its not insignificant i fear 😭

[fleet hedge]

Because a good judge is shit, the Judge should always be exiled by nominations on day 2

[fleet hedge]

What would you say is the Judge's main value to the good team?

[ivory ridge]

so many people hate fun and whimsy 😔

[ivory ridge]

prevent an execution go through if the vibe is off

[fleet hedge]

Town can do this without a judge

[spiral pollen]

good judge is useful but evil judge is infinitely more powerful

[ivory ridge]

nuh uh

[spiral pollen]

thats the problem

[fleet hedge]

They can make another nomination, and get more votes on it

[ivory ridge]

yeah this is do agree. evil judge is definitely decently stronger

[ivory ridge]

not without evil voting block normally

have you ever lift on someone that get like 2 vote pass block

[fleet hedge]

They can look at the players refusing to vote, and they become very likely evil candidates

[ivory ridge]

i dont think ive ever encounter it? in like 4 different groups

[fleet hedge]

A good town should be putting minimal votes to get someone on the block, at least during Judge's living window of the first 2 or 3 days

[ivory ridge]

livevoice, my group, livetext, homebrew have never done that

[ivory ridge]

a good town should normally get the solve actually 🔥

but normally its 1 over block yeah (because of different nom and other stuff), 2 over block is pretty rare i agree

i realized I’ve been just defending this character in the thread

😔

[fleet hedge]

Take a 10 player game, 1 over block is 6, so 7 is achievable with all good players voting. Also, if there's an obviously better nom that doesn't get enough votes, it's likely that town can just shoot into the non-voters and find the evils

[ivory ridge]

that literally never happen

thats saying everyone voting flowergirl perfectly always get the solve

[fleet hedge]

Town can see who votes and at least in my groups voting history on important noms is taken into account a lot

And these are in person games

[ivory ridge]

oh ur an online only person

[tacit fiber]

"the vibe is off" yeah this is never a good judge

[fleet hedge]

Like just from memory

I now always lobby to exile a judge pre-noms on day 1 as either alignment

[tacit fiber]

if an execution is passed and the judge say "the vibe is off" the judge has decided tomorrow's execution

[ivory ridge]

i think the most important question is “who do you lift onto instead”

[fleet hedge]

Some science nom maybe

There's always one of those and it's easy to get votes on them

[ivory ridge]

lifting with 1 over block can be dangerous

thats why butler is an outsider

[fleet hedge]

You can lift onto the fool claim, sailor claim, TL claim neighbour

[ivory ridge]

wait science as in, kill ysk?

oh is this bmr judge only

[fleet hedge]

I am assuming BMR yeah

[ivory ridge]

smh

[fleet hedge]

On customs there's slightly more thought

[ivory ridge]

of course theres slightly more thought 😭

[fleet hedge]

We can clearly solve all our problems by exclusively playing BMR

🔥

[ivory ridge]

also killing fool is not optimal i think, and tea lady can only work once (most of the time)

my point is basically “theres some value”

[fleet hedge]

Tbh I'm quite against Travellers in general

[ivory ridge]

thats a you problem

i think judge is a lot more fun than apprentice (who btw if is apprentice DA is like strictly stronger than judge)

wait theres fucking apprentice DA in bmr, why are we complaining about judge

its not even a small chance btw, its like 1/6 (1/3 script traveller * 1/2 not in play minion (median 2))

[tacit fiber]

stop using percentages in clocktower

the storyteller makes choices off balance not rolling a fucking die

[feral snow]

We do?! /j

[ivory ridge]

true, percentage is not real

math propaganda and what not

[fleet hedge]

My issue with Travellers is that the average value a Traveller provides has to be in good's favour, else it will be exiled. I think in practice the majority of Travellers are generally overall on average beneficial to good, and the ones that aren't just get exiled. Travellers just rarely benefit evil unless it's like Apprentice and can add an outsider with Godfather or it's Apprentice or Judge and town keeps them alive out of pity

[tacit fiber]

I don't agree

[fleet hedge]

In my experience whenever I'm evil and a traveller joins I feel further from winning

[tacit fiber]

I think that a lot of travelers are good if their strength is entirely predicated on the traveler's alignment

the problem is that this is barely true

[modern plume]

The one time I was a Scapegoat, my neighbor claimed Empath with a 0. I desired the sweet release of death, eager to sacrifice myself to save another, demanding executions without remorse against everyone and anyone

[fleet hedge]

Even then, Travellers are good more often than evil, and therefore benefit good more often than evil

[ivory ridge]

hear me out, if an evil judge is hypothetically 2 times stronger. the expected value of a judge is 1*2/3 - 2*1/3 = 0, so its actually neutral value

[fleet hedge]

I think the evil judge is hypothetically about 1000 times stronger

Good judge probably harms good about as often as it helps it

[tacit fiber]

this is true for maybe but idk

[ivory ridge]

thats because someone policy exile judge 🔥

[tacit fiber]

yeah bc good jduge doesn't help good

if I ever saw a good judge helping good ever I wouldn't summary execute the judge as fast as posisble

[fleet hedge]

"Once per game, frustrate town by deciding their democratically decided on decision was wrong."

[ivory ridge]

damn poor aprrentice da & scapegoat & deviant & gnome 😔

[fleet hedge]

Apprentice is a war crime

[modern plume]

This democracy regularly executes innocent people, can’t be that great /j

[ivory ridge]

omg not me forget voudon

and bishop

damn poor democracy

[fleet hedge]

Bishop is fine because it gives some info to the bishop, and if ST is nominating the wring people you just exile

[modern plume]

Bureaucrat and Thief “One person one vote? To hell with that!”

[ivory ridge]

SO REAL

anyway my point is tpi is actually authoritarian actually

[fleet hedge]

Buruecrat and Thirf are just really strange

[ivory ridge]

😔

[fleet hedge]

I never see the point

[tacit fiber]

Bureaucrat and Thief are dumb

[modern plume]

Gunslinger “You have the right to vote, and I have my right to shoot 🙂 “

[tacit fiber]

Theif is fine

Bureau is evil sided

[ivory ridge]

i like bureaucrat and thief due to how applicable they are

[fleet hedge]

I don't like them because wtf do you do with them

[ivory ridge]

yeah its not fun

but thats why my top ranked traveller is bone collector and judge

[fleet hedge]

Bone Collector is alright

[tacit fiber]

- get a better arguement
- I don't think you know how Gnome works
- This isn't saying what town is doing is wrong
- This also isn't saying what town is doing is wrong it just removes good's options

[ivory ridge]

just policy exile your unspent judge in late game, no one will be mad about that

[fleet hedge]

Until there's a Mastermind win through judge on day 2

[ivory ridge]

is there a difference between that and the demon sciencing themself

[tacit fiber]

yes

good has the choice to investigate the idea "is this a mastermind day"

and not just the mastermind nominating and the judge summary executing instantly to win

[fleet hedge]

Good have to decide they don't think it's MM before noms open in order to keep a judge alive on day 2

[ivory ridge]

thats why you exile first thing 😭

[tacit fiber]

so policy execute all judges on d2?

[ivory ridge]

if literally no one die? probably

[modern plume]

At that point, you just policy exile Judge Day 2 (so long as someone died to execution the prior day)

[tacit fiber]

...

(Assassin, Gossip, Gambler)

[fleet hedge]

Then evil judges start slamming on a random shit execution on day 1 and outing evil after they claim they don't want to die in their defense

[tacit fiber]

(Minstrel, Innkeeper, Sailor, Exorcist)

[ivory ridge]

ones a minion, the other 2 get info? 😭

[tacit fiber]

people will die on bmr without the demon

[modern plume]

Random science is best science.

[fleet hedge]

[tacit fiber]

people will not die on bmr without mastermind

[modern plume]

A Judge randomly murdering some shmuck on Day 1 is some hilarious and unethical science

[ivory ridge]

realest statement

[fleet hedge]

Yes Mastermind is the cause of all kills (on BMR)

[ivory ridge]

yeah its really funny tbf

[fleet hedge]

Judge shit Bishop good 🎉

[tacit fiber]

agree

[ivory ridge]

honestly, i just kind of disengage with this

[tacit fiber]

the problem is that your logic will lead to most grims policy exile the judge on d2

[ivory ridge]

like everytime i mention something interesting about judge, you repeat the same idea

i consider judge on both custom and bmr btw

[fleet hedge]

On customs it's slightly better yeah

[ivory ridge]

its quite a lot better

[fleet hedge]

But I will still never be able to see it's value as good

[tacit fiber]

Judge

• isn't helpful while good and is insanely good when evil
• removes agency from good and centers the game around them
• has the stupid ass scam plan on bmr which leads to policy exiles on d2 almost always

[ivory ridge]

but like mastermind’s jank aside, i think it is still at least an intended interaction

[tacit fiber]

is it or was mastermind-judge the best b3 interaction over good twin-judge or saint-judge

[ivory ridge]

dont run judge on snv??? and tb???

[fleet hedge]

They could've saved Judge for a later edition I guess

[tacit fiber]

yes exactl

[ivory ridge]

this is just being obtuse for the sake of it

[tacit fiber]

Judge had to go somewhere

[ivory ridge]

i think its fine

i just feel annoyed that i write like

[fleet hedge]

Judge Mastermind is fine you just have to execute the judge pre-noms day 2 if you think there's a decent chance of a mastermind day

[ivory ridge]

5 paragraph and all you do is bring up jank interaction

[fleet hedge]

I do get your points

And like I see why people find Judge fun

[ivory ridge]

2 of which is like, not intended

[fleet hedge]

Thank you for sharing them by the way

It's definitely interesting to see another perspective

[ivory ridge]

wait did you actually read the paragraph upstairs?

[fleet hedge]

Yeah I did

[ivory ridge]

oh wow

yeah ill admit

i specifically consider custom judge (but also slight bmr judge)

some character dont work with judge and its fine (its not even that much)

saint, evil twin, goblin?

[fleet hedge]

Your points are valid, but I think I just will always hold the opinion that regarding executions, the majority opinion of town is usually better than the opinion of a single good judge

[modern plume]

There's only a few Travellers that don't have bad interactions with at least one character.

[fleet hedge]

And town have no incentive to convince a judge that they can just exile

[modern plume]

Even Deviant somehow has a bad interaction

[ivory ridge]

whats Deviant’s bad interaction

[modern plume]

Immortal Lil'Monsta

[ivory ridge]

oh

[fleet hedge]

(and who is evil in about a third of games)

[modern plume]

A Funny Demon can't die apparently

[fleet hedge]

easy, don't laugh at their jokes

[versed junco]

if that were true I wouldn't lose nearly so many games as demon

[modern plume]

ST

[tacit fiber]

the problem with this is that this is seen because people analyse different types of info, and people treat travellers differently

the traveler will never be the one who solves but nobody listens to

[modern plume]

I've been a Traveller that everyone trusted before (until it bit them in the *ss due to a trick I pulled)

[ivory ridge]

what type

[modern plume]

Gunslinger

[ivory ridge]

💀

[modern plume]

It's in the Hall of Fame

#the-day-the-music-died

[tacit fiber]

I have played 92 games with at least one traveler this has never and will never happen

[ivory ridge]

the traveller doesnt need to have the solve, the person who have the solve need to convince the traveller

[modern plume]

I was trusted until I murdered the Minstrel after nominating the Goblin and getting a lot of votes on them

There was no salvaging my reputation after doing that, so I just went ham and fully outed Evil

Was fun

[next marlin]

I was once the evil barista who was the designated "second good nominator in an f3 with 2 outed evils"

The demon was not nominated that game

[ivory ridge]

why dont people like

exile traveler in f3

[fleet hedge]

I hold the opinion that it's easier to convince town than it is to convince the Traveller. Town will always be comprised of mostly good players, who will hear your rational argument and realise that you have the solve and execute the demon. But the Traveller might be evil so there's no point convincing them.

[ivory ridge]

unless there is an actual confirmation chain

[ivory ridge]

eh its the same ratio

1/3 at what not

[modern plume]

Had a game where a Bishop survived to final 3 and was never exiled. It just wasn't necessary.

[ivory ridge]

oh bishop is a different story…probably?

[fleet hedge]

You can always potentially convince town - good always have the majority of town, but good only sometimes have the majority of "Judge"

[ivory ridge]

since everyone will be nommed

[modern plume]

Technically they survived to final 2, as final day was a Mastermind day

[ivory ridge]

i mean its not a surefire chance but i think its worth it

also note that this is mosty midgame stuff

[fleet hedge]

I like Bishop, but my problem with Bishop is does it ever help evil?

[ivory ridge]

so town is still wavering

[ivory ridge]

you know what imma yap on this

[modern plume]

Also to clarify the game I referred to, I was exiled with 6 other players still alive, so wasn't final 3 yet.

[ivory ridge]

so much traveller help good

[modern plume]

And I was getting exiled that day no matter what anyway

[ivory ridge]

and no one have a problem with it

like wtf are you supposed to do as evil voudon or butcher

[fleet hedge]

My problem with travellers in general is that travellers that help evil don't work

Because they get exiled day 1

[ivory ridge]

no but they help good to an extreme degree

thats my problem

[modern plume]

You say that, but-
I nearly got a Goblin win by shooting a Minstrel on a Minstrel day.

[next marlin]

Just kill evils at night skill issue

[ivory ridge]

bone collector, barista, scapegoat, judge, harlot can help everyone

relatively fine

[tacit fiber]

yes

[fleet hedge]

And even like an evil gunslinger isn't great, and that's a traveller that is supposed to be great for evil

[tacit fiber]

storytellers are just too scared to never nominate an evil player on a given day

[ivory ridge]

evil gunslinger is like evil gnome reskin

[tacit fiber]

basically making every bishop into a good bishop

[ivory ridge]

thats mechanically not possible

[modern plume]

Harlot is good for Evil. Either (1) make sh*t up about Good players to frame them (2) back up Evil's claims or (3) f*cking kill some Good schmuck who trusted you

[tacit fiber]

this isn't true

[modern plume]

(2) is the weakest here, the other two are good uses though

[ivory ridge]

oh wait

nvm im wrong

1 opposing player

not 1 evil

[tacit fiber]

mhm

[ivory ridge]

yeah harlot is cool

maybe i rank harlot too low

i think my go to traveller is always bone collector on a random script though

its fun and not prone to getting exiled immediat

[fleet hedge]

Tbh I've not played much with Bishop, say like everyone wants a certain player executed, would a ST usually nominate them?

[fleet hedge]

Bone Collector is maybe the best Traveller imo too

I feel it helps evil often enough, despite still being generally goodsided

Unfortunately

[tacit fiber]

depends

[fast anchor]

apprentice but it's also not a traveler

[ivory ridge]

whats the second best traveller 👀

i know its not judge but who is it

[modern plume]

The only 'bad' interactions with Bone Collector are those where you can at least mitigate them as Good, at least as far as I am aware.

They can bone collect a dead Damsel to let Minions guess them for the win. To mitigate this, don't out as Damsel when dead until the Collector is gone. (And if ST, don't introduce a Bone Collector into the middle of a game with outed dead Damsel claim-)

A funny interaction is Bone Collector picking a dead Mutant.

[fleet hedge]

Barista or Beggar maybe

[modern plume]

More annoying for town than anything, but still amusing

[fleet hedge]

Probably Barista

Then Beggar

[ivory ridge]

really, i hate beggar

[fast anchor]

beggar slaps

[tacit fiber]

Barista doesn't have any bad interactions I think

Beggar sucks

[ivory ridge]

for me its Barista and then Scapegoat

[fleet hedge]

Scapegoat is def up there

I don't like the killing travs

[ivory ridge]

Scapegoat only from a theoretical perspective though

[fast anchor]

Barista in my experience is way swingier than most travelers in a way I find especially disruptive as an ST and unfun as a player

[ivory ridge]

but in practice its still fine

[tacit fiber]

Beggar is people who want a chair and the only seat was at clocktower circle

[fast anchor]

because it's the ST calling the shots

[ivory ridge]

this is true

[modern plume]

Scapegoat is especially interesting if Cannibal is around

[fleet hedge]

Scapegoat is alright but is a little to exil-able if their alignment isn't looking good enough

[fast anchor]

We heard you liked Scapegoat, so we put more Scapegoat in your Scapegoat

[modern plume]

Scapegoat is one of the few Travellers a Cannibal can eat relatively easily. The only other way is with Cere BS.

But if a Cerenovus is targetting a Traveller, that's just rude

[ivory ridge]

but also scapegoat can just chill

[fast anchor]

it's really funny though

[modern plume]

Rude but Funny

[ivory ridge]

scapegoat is nice because you dont have action that frame you

[fast anchor]

and a cere hitting a traveler is probably doing something suboptimal since they aren't really suppressing info

unless it's the harlot

[modern plume]

If I'm Cerenovus and King is on the script, I'm either (1) turning the King mad and making them claim something new every day (2) making someone mad as the King everyday, especially if they're a Traveller

[ivory ridge]

“the Gnome? no amigo, im just your lil Grandmami”

[fast anchor]

wait, would a ceremad Butcher nominating after the day ends be a break?

[fleet hedge]

Do people like Gnome

[fast anchor]

That's insane

I love it

[ivory ridge]

yes

[modern plume]

So rude

[fast anchor]

Base script interaction ftw

[ivory ridge]

its fine butcher is insanely goodsided anyway

[fast anchor]

It's fine

[fleet hedge]

I've not seen much of Gnome, but I fear that it's basically giving town an extra execution

[next marlin]

Yeah barista is great if and only if the ST has figured out by now that you do not use the good barista to sober the entire town, which takes about 2-3 baristas

[ivory ridge]

im gonna repeat this the third time

[fast anchor]

That's every killing traveler

[ivory ridge]

but Gnome is just reskin Gunslinger

[fleet hedge]

Yeah but I feel like the other killing Travellers are hated enough

People just seem to glaze Gnome for no reason

[ivory ridge]

i think my opinion on gnome have decreased quite a bit

[fleet hedge]

Gnome is if Gunslinger and Revolutionary had a baby

Two... not really balanced characters tbh

[ivory ridge]

who would be the mom and who’s the dad (assuming biological baby)

[modern plume]

Eh, Gnome has the advantage/disadvantage that the Demon knows the Gnome's alignment (outside of Poppy grower stuff), since the Gnome's buddy is known.

[next marlin]

Gnome is a traveller that's immune to trav baiting which means 95% of traveller issues are irrelevant to it which means it tends to become a favourite trav by default

[fleet hedge]

I feel like Gunslinger gives me very masculine energy

[modern plume]

So an Evil Gnome already is known to be a friend to the Demon.
While Good Gnome can't traveller bait

[ivory ridge]

really, i think its more that Revolutionary giving me feminine energy and Gunslinger being neutral

[fast anchor]

Why are you like this

[fleet hedge]

I guess Revo mum and Gunslinger dad was just meant to be then

[ivory ridge]

im mentally unwell and still adjusting to the med thats why 🔥

[modern plume]

I forever associate Gunslinger with the song American Pie, so I have to say Gunslinger is the dad since the singer of the song is male.

[fleet hedge]

How did this association come about?

[fast anchor]

I think they're lesbians, but I think that about a lot of fictional couples, including canonically het ones

[modern plume]

#the-day-the-music-died

[tacit fiber]

Revolutionary is the transfem

[cold veldt]

there can definitely be Revolutionary Girls

[tacit fiber]

Gunslinger is the mom?

[modern plume]

After I murdered the Minstrel in cold blood, I started posting American Pie lyrics to out Evil

[tacit fiber]

Revolutionary-Gunslinger is 100% yuri

[fleet hedge]

Female Gunslinger is taking over

[cold veldt]

and i could recommend an anime for all to watch

[modern plume]

#the-day-the-music-died message

#the-day-the-music-died message

#the-day-the-music-died message

[fleet hedge]

Gangster > Gnome

Gangster is at least limited in their killing options

[fast anchor]

gangster is really swingy because it entirely depends on where they sit

if they sit within a seat or two of the demon it's just over

[fleet hedge]

So is Empath and Tea Lady tho lol

[fast anchor]

Those are residents

[fleet hedge]

But yeah I never Gangster was good

It's just better than the other killers imo

[fast anchor]

Also, evil has onscript counterplay other than "kill the gangster before they kill you"

da, mm, "it's the other neighbor"

[fleet hedge]

I've also got a Mandela effect of it being spelt Gangsta

[fast anchor]

gangster is "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE"

that's the counterplay

[fleet hedge]

Or you could kill the hatter and become the Lleech

🤷‍♂️

But yeah probably not the most accessible escape hatch

[zenith lotus]

i dont know why people dont do this more often 😉

[fleet hedge]

Never fear Gangster again when you figure this one out

There's also the counterplay of badly injuring the Gangster so that they have to travel out to visit the hospital

This tech can't be used on residents

[flat lintel]

it.. isn’t?

[fast anchor]

it's a rubbish bin disguised as a traveler

:)

[ebon idol]

Apprentice sucks but it gets a little too much hate imo

Gangster deserves it's hate and more, I just don't think it's fun and it's horrificly balanced

Gunslinger is meh but it's grown on me a little bit, I think literally other traveler I like to a decent extent

Travelers get much better in the context of non online-scheduled/online-queue games as well, one of the many things online has deteriorated to an extent

[fleet hedge]

Does Gunslinger not just become an extra execution each day for good

[modern plume]

The one time I worked for you as Gunslinger wasn't good enough for you? /j

[fleet hedge]

I guess there's always the risk it outs evil and stabs you in the back

[modern plume]

[fleet hedge]

I guess Gunslinger being at the start of noms means good has to come up with a good execution quixkly

So it's more likely to be a bad execution (or kill in this case)

[ebon idol]

I mean the gunslinger has control of who and if they shoot so not really, it is pretty alignment dependent on the gunslinger

[modern plume]

I mean, if Good is that insistent on avoiding Gunslinger, they can just nom someone no one will vote on first

[ebon idol]

Also people can just not vote as well

[fleet hedge]

If Gunslinger isn't going with majority opinion it's very likely to get exiled

[fleet hedge]

Demon candidates should and will though

[modern plume]

Sure, but, the one time they go against group consensus can be devastating when Evil

[ebon idol]

i'd just tell people pressuring me to kick sand

Good players being alive is good and even if Im sus I may not want to be shot

[fleet hedge]

As gunslinger or as a demon candidate?

[ebon idol]

both

[fleet hedge]

If you're they player the majority of town wants dead to gunslinger and you refuse you're probably getting executed anyway

[ebon idol]

Possibly

[fleet hedge]

Gunslinger being at the start of noms has that effect

[modern plume]

True, but at that point why would the Gunslinger need to shoot them. If town is that insistent, it only matters if the player is also willing to be shot

Just execute the target at that point.

[fleet hedge]

Gunslinger is just a vessel for town to be able to control more of the kills, at the risk of them outing evil and making an extra kill for evil

[ebon idol]

There's a thought experiment that kinda gets to the point im getting at, the one of set a rule of "Everyone hard claims d1"

Everyone starts hard claiming d1, me, who has reason and will to lie, gets executed because I refuse to play that way
After a few games, it's known that I will lie and don't want to play that way, then executing me ceases to become a strategy

[modern plume]

Gunslinger mass murdering townies also means less executions, less time for info gathering

I literally used that fact as a means to justify murdering every single day for myself.

[ebon idol]

My point being that as a gunslinger and as a townie or evil who may not want to get shot, "They aren't shooting who we want" and "They aren't letting themselves get shot" just become how I play

They can exile or execute me fine, but I am a stubborn player and I think group pressure leads to poor game health and less interesting games

And it's just not fun

[fleet hedge]

There is an opposite thought experiment – if you are too reluctant to die as a good demon candidate you will lose games to being executed too late in the game and realise that you should be more happy to die in future games

I think I'm always more of player who values teamwork

I will never claim Goblin as good

[modern plume]

I don't think that contradicts Hannah's point?

[fleet hedge]

It doesn't, but I just think being very reluctant to die if the info points towards you is harmful

[ebon idol]

Part of teamwork is understanding ppl have their own playstyles and working with them instead of just using group consensus to steamroll past them

If a player (lets say me) often claims goblin as good, then attributing me as 100% evil is going to just stab you in the foot

[modern plume]

Hannah opposes pressure. Being against being executed isn't necessarily being against pressure. If Hannah was in a position where if they are executed, there is only one other possible Demon candidate, Hannah could be convinced because their execution leads to victory.

[fleet hedge]

But there is the possibility that town keeps attributing you as 100% evil until you stop claiming goblin as good

[ebon idol]

that's kinda their problem lol

[fast anchor]

but ae's the evil twin in a non-vortox game so have to die in f4

[ebon idol]

Like, there are reasons to claim goblin as good

Ignoring those is not my misplay, it's other peoples

[fleet hedge]

I understand I'm not in the majority but I don't think there's any reason to ever claim goblin as good with the intent of convincing good players that you are the evil goblin, at least on that day.

[ebon idol]

Claiming goblin and convincing people you are the evil goblin are two different things fwiw

[fleet hedge]

(so maybe like doing it in a PG game so people think you're evil, as a pre-planned act with other players you believe are good who you have informed on advance that you will claim goblin)

^ like this is a time to claim goblin as good

[sour harness]

^^^^^^^^^

[modern plume]

If a player consistently claims Goblin even when Good, I just eventually make a mental note to never assume they're Evil just for making a Goblin claim

"Ah, just them doing their thing again"

[ebon idol]

yeah it's just game theory

[sour harness]

This is why I hate the cerenovus jinx so much too

[fleet hedge]

The Cerenovus jinx is so weird

I don't really get what you're supposed to do if you're made mad as the goblin

[modern plume]

It's apparently there to make it more fun, but I don't see it

[fleet hedge]

Do you just claim it from the start of the day

[ebon idol]

(But also convincing players you are the evil goblin, even if you are good, still has merit)

[fleet hedge]

Convincing good players?

Because I disagree

[modern plume]

I think it's trivially clear Hannah means good players. A goblin doesn't need to convince their team outside of very specific scenarios.

[ebon idol]

It's very easy way to survive until late game to be seen as an evil that can't be executed

[modern plume]

Nor can you convince Evil you're Goblin if they know their own team

[ebon idol]

Like if you're in f3 and town is dead set on you being a minion, that's great for your odds of nominating and executing the demon

Obviously a very sterile and perfect example and it can and has backfired but it has also not, there's merit to it which is my point

[fleet hedge]

My take on this is, and I totally get why others disagree, that if you are in a position where despite telling everyone that it's better to keep you alive and explaining why, most good players think it's better you should die, you should probably die. Claiming Goblin will just remove trust that they could have had in you after death, and most importantly it discourages town from working together and discourages town from taking any goblin claims seriously, which makes it so much easier for evil to claim goblin and not be outed evil, which is very bad for town.

Making goblin claims outed evil is so beneficial to good

[dry sluice]

A friend in my IRL group claims Goblin 100% of the time if it's on script. So he gains some win equity when he's the Goblin and, I guess, loses some when he's the Demon.

[ebon idol]

(Also importantly and this is the most important factor for me, claiming goblin is fun as fuck)

[fleet hedge]

I guess I just find my fun in working together with other players to solve the game

[ebon idol]

I do too

[modern plume]

I don't think it's a perfect game theory maximal play. If it's maximally beneficial to Good for no Good player to claim Goblin, then the moment a Good player really doesn't want to die, they ought to claim Goblin because everyone ought to immediately believe it.

[fleet hedge]

But it helps good more for them not to do that, because that player is going to be exclusively built as evil

[modern plume]

There's a number of Good roles that have very good reason to avoid dying if at all possible.

Plague Doctor, Sweetheart, late game Klutz, Poppygrower...

[fleet hedge]

And you can tell players that in your defense

[modern plume]

A Poppygrower wouldn't want to defend themself as Poppygrower-

[fleet hedge]

Or tell good players that you trust in private, who can vouch for you in a more vague manner

[modern plume]

Goblin is a much more sensible defense, because then even Evil will hesistate to kill you

[ebon idol]

"I am the goblin" and "I am the klutz" are also many steps away

[fleet hedge]

It isn't the end of the world if you die though

[ebon idol]

Why not tell good players you are the klutz in private and then in public claim goblin?

[fleet hedge]

Because then everyone will build you as evil

[dry sluice]

Well, consider claiming Goblin 100% of the time you're nominated. That way, it makes no sense to build you as outed evil just because of a Goblin claim.

[fleet hedge]

(In this hypothetical meta where only evils claim goblin)

[ebon idol]

in that hypothetical meta I don't come back for game 2 lol

[fleet hedge]

Well then, you're throwing the game

[modern plume]

If a player only claims Goblin ever even to the end game, then obviously I build them as exclusively Evil (unless Cere is on the script)

[ebon idol]

Like, ultimately I think this comes down to a lack of flexibility with the game, it is fine and it reasonable to treat goblin claims as evil

[modern plume]

But otherwise, I can just consider "Ah, a more chaotic player, got it" and just make a mental note

[ebon idol]

But if a player is known to claim goblin as good, then always treating them as evil is not on them, it's a bad game theory decision on you

That's the overall point

[modern plume]

It;s only reasonable to build a player as Evil whenever they claim Goblin if that player claims Goblin only if they are Evil.

But if they can and will do it regardless, it's not rational to always assume they are Evil

[fleet hedge]

If they're doing it as a form of range balancing then they're actively throwing. Otherwise, I still stand by my point that I find it more fun and beneficial to the good team when only evils claim goblin.

[modern plume]

"I am the Goblin!"
"We're... playing Trouble Brewing-"
/j

[fleet hedge]

Obviously everyone can play how they like and can disagree with me

[modern plume]

I mean, it's more than disagreement when you're asserting they're actively throwing 😛

[ebon idol]

yeah lol

[fleet hedge]

They're only throwing if they're doing to it to have an easier time when they draw evil

[modern plume]

The only time you shouldn't ever claim Goblin as Good that I can see is if one is the Saint, because there's legitimately no point

[fleet hedge]

That's an intention that's unhealthy for the game, if they're doing it because they genuinely believe it helps good that's fine

[modern plume]

"If you execute me, Good loses! I'm the Saint!"
"We don't believe you, we think you're the Demon"
"Fine, if you execute me... GOOD LOSES CAUSE I'M THE GOBLIN!"
"... Okay, still think you're the Demon"

[flat lintel]

Me when the botc community attacks most of my favorite travelers 😭

i am like a gangster lover

[cyan reef]

I've definitely seen a good Judge save a good player this way before, and the Demon ended up getting executed instead

[flat lintel]

Gunslinger and apprentice are fun to me imo (but can also easily be unfun)

[muted crescent]

Gangster's hot

[cyan reef]

a Judge being able to save a good player or being able to force an execution on an evil player should be obvious in its value, I think

[shrewd cloud]

Gunslinger and Gangster mostly. Gnome’s like the only killing Traveller I like. Also have to give dishonorable mention to Judge

Also don’t like stuff like Matron online though it did feel much better in person during F3 Con

[hollow oasis]

I have

[feral snow]

I have had one and it didn’t improve the game mechanically but we had fun

A concept unfamiliar to vati

[fleet hedge]

There is no reason that the Judge's opinion is more reliable than that of the majority of town, so it usually ends up hurting good about as often as it helps (and I think a lot of players' experience with the character backs this up)

[cyan reef]

a lot of players' experiences would also completely debunk that, so that's probably not going to be particularly helpful

in any case, the question was what the value of Judge can be to the town, and that was the answer

in terms of "reliability" (which seems like a weird metric to go by but I'll try to go along), individuals sometimes have better reads than the town collective quite often, and especially given the scenarios where 2 to 5 (5 including a potentially evil Goon) are actively trying to control executions in evil's favor

this can be quite scary for an evil team

Judge is a good example of a Traveler too that really wants players talking with them and trying to persuade them

[fleet hedge]

I also don't think the majority of town want to be overruled, when they can just exile the Judge to prevent this from happening

On day 1

[cyan reef]

yeah, I tend to avoid people like that

exiling Travelers on day 1 is just not fun behavior, and rule 4 of the game is "play nice"

I think this also exemplifies some of the worst traits that tend to come with the online version of the game

[hollow oasis]

The “also free tealady science” also does not help with the exile problem

[dry sluice]

If players are encouraged by the game to exile a traveler day 1, that's not the players' fault, it's a character design problem.

[cyan reef]

players aren't necessarily encouraged to do so, but this is a completely different point than what UnformedPond was making anyway

there's a massive difference between "we might learn something by trying to exile a Traveler" (even though it's not even necessarily a good idea to do so) vs "we don't want this Traveler to use their ability for our own selfish reasons"

[ivory ridge]

i mean this just end up always exiling the traveller i think

unless it's specifically voudon or butcher (which is goodsided regardless of alignment)

so like, not the best argument

[cyan reef]

"for science" executions aren't generally great strategy (it's not terrible, but it's not great), so I don't think "for science" exiles are all that different

Tea Lady tests are the funniest since they're so often just a sign post for who evil should be trying to kill

[hollow oasis]

Science exes are good but always blame it on the pacifist

[cyan reef]

Sailor is possibly the more useful tests since it should in theory tell you something about who they chose, but even then it's a bit situational

[sour harness]

I'm sorry what

Science is fundamental to bmr

How are you winning games without a single science execution

(you don't need to double tap necessarily but test the tea lady's neighbors or something)

[cyan reef]

I mean, generally you want to try to execute people you think are evil

but also, I didn't say "don't do science executions ever"

I also didn't even say that it's bad strategy

[sour harness]

"not great" is what I read as "bad strategy" but I guess they're different

[cyan reef]

it's probably worth reading all the other words that went with it, lol 🙂

but there's a reason BMR is considered to be a very social script

[sour harness]

I did, I think it's more of the fact that people inherently communicate less over text

[cyan reef]

"let's try to execute and easily telegraph who the Tea Lady is" is often not ideal, nor is executing a Fool early in the game just to prove that they're the Fool

[sour harness]

Right, fool is generally different

[cyan reef]

like I said, Sailor can potentially get more value of it, I think

[next vault]

I wonder

[cyan reef]

it's all very situational

[next vault]

Is there any traveller that works on teensy?

[cyan reef]

unlikely, a Traveler is explicitly not recommended when there's less that 7 players alive

[next vault]

gunslinger

[sour harness]

Last time I pulled tea lady I "role swapped" with someone halfway across the circle telling them to bluff pacifist and science my neighbor. That led to about half the town being confirmed in 2 executions (then we lost to the Po charge)

[hollow oasis]

Pacifist and Sailor are good science

[sour harness]

Beggar could make work?? I'd still advise against it tho

[hollow oasis]

Tea lady needs to pretend it was the pacifist’s fault

[sour harness]

Which I did

The evil team had no idea I was TL until late

[hollow oasis]

This is not hard to do, it’s a very good BMR meta

[next vault]

what about science?

[sour harness]

so true

[next vault]

livetext needs to try this

[sour harness]

no

[hollow oasis]

Painful

[next vault]

HEAR ME OUT

[ivory ridge]

i mean there are different type of science

sailor is self explanatory

[hollow oasis]

It’s bad because BMR doesn’t synergize

[next vault]

The point is

[ivory ridge]

fool and to an extension tea lady is trickier

[next vault]

That it's levijank teensy

everyone loves jank

[ivory ridge]

you see it as levi jank, i see it as luf++

[barren zenith]

I really don't think they do

[ivory ridge]

i mean do livetext ever try /j

[next vault]

this is not even close to luf

the only info role is king

[ivory ridge]

if ur unfun and anti-whimsical, yes

[next vault]

tf you do in luf?

cannibal is the only thing that might create conflict in luf

[next vault]

also this script is full of whimsy and fun interactions

[ivory ridge]

so is luf

[next vault]

how

it has the goblin/widow dynamic

not much more

[ivory ridge]

balloonist + 1 lunatic, cannibal and levi-poisoned widow

[next vault]

why would you poison the levi?

[ivory ridge]

because its fun and whimsy

[next vault]

that's not a whismy interaction, that'd be like saying "godfather kill the demon in BMR"

[ivory ridge]

if you haven’t realized yet, im not being serious

[next vault]

2/3 are real

cannibal is a lot of what makes LuF better

[ivory ridge]

it was more about how even if its real, its not related to the other levi script

[next vault]

and balloon is just either extremely strong (you learn the other tf) or really sad (the st is runing newloonist)

[ivory ridge]

actually @sour harness what did you think about my quadjank hottake

https://tenor.com/view/sadhamstergirl-gif-4231717927828306245

[barren zenith]

-jinx

[digital drum]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/904250103588597790/1316017062572724256/jinx_rules_1.png?ex=675983e6&is=67583266&hm=1368b6eb23d246577154c87133445bf9062c3765d3509833c276659be950fd30&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/904250103588597790/1316017068902191134/jinx_rules_2.png?ex=675983e7&is=67583267&hm=2970c3fa00ca5858d9b7020c04703c519ef385412ad8679995b139dab918f517&

[next vault]

Grandma > Minstrel is an option

But Grandma is impossible to bluff

Maybe like Grandma King but 🤨

[barren zenith]

Then what is disguising a D6 MM day?

[next vault]

yeah that's mostly why minstrel is there

because not many minions work with this

[sour harness]

What's the hot take

[next vault]

Add Wizard

[sour harness]

We tried that

Granted I had no idea how to run wizard well

But we did try that

[next vault]

how did it go?

[ivory ridge]

oh

the hot take is uh

[sour harness]

Here's the start of the backread

[fleet hedge]

If a game requires players to play suboptimally in order for others to have fun, that's bad game design. The intention of a game is that all players try their best to win, and the experience of trying to win the game is what makes the game fun.

[ivory ridge]

quadjank is snv-like in the sense that
heretic represent all snv townsfolk
boffin-alchemist is the evil twin pair
engineer is the snake charmer
lunatic is the madness mechanic
oh and atheist is vortox i guess

that's my take 🔥

[hollow oasis]

quadjank is a MHD-like

[ivory ridge]

me when i lie

[feral snow]

Quadjank is a tomb like but yall aren’t ready for that

[hollow oasis]

quadjank is not a tomb-like

[ivory ridge]

quadjank is literally just snv

[hollow oasis]

the townsfolk are straight up breaking the game

[ivory ridge]

and we all know this

[hollow oasis]

athiest/heretic/philo shenanigans

this is MHDcoded

and heretic on top of this

[feral snow]

If they all break the game then it’s just a different game where they all work normally

[ivory ridge]

philo shenanigan being mhd code is a crazy thing to say i fear

[hollow oasis]

this is literally MHD

[hollow oasis]

when heretic, it makes sense

[feral snow]

This plays absolutely nothing like MHD is expected to

[hollow oasis]

lies

[ivory ridge]

but it absolutely play like snv right? right?

[barren zenith]

Quadjank can't really be accurately compared to any base script

[ivory ridge]

😔

[feral snow]

Eh kinda

[ivory ridge]

thanks squall

[sour harness]

This is really funny however it is false

Quadjank is a tomblike

[ivory ridge]

when tomb come out you're gonna realize the gravity of this statement

[sour harness]

(this is the real answer)

[cyan reef]

It doesn't require suboptimal play. That's the best part

[sour harness]

I feel like "immortal demon" is quite tombcore even if that's not gonna show up on the script

[cyan reef]

It just requires people to not mistakenly believe things which aren't optimal to be optimal

[hollow oasis]

It's also possible that they need a gnome

[fleet hedge]

I do think leaving a Judge alive is suboptimal from the perspective of the town's majority

[flat lintel]

no, it's def the players fault.

[fleet hedge]

They have decided on an execution for the day and the judge invalidating that decision directly harms them

[flat lintel]

if a player comes to the game on day 1 and gets exiled cause they are the gangster, that's a little insane imo

[ivory ridge]

i mean if we're being serious

[sour harness]

I don't think there's a single other good sided counter in the game to evil rising up

Maybe slayer?? But that's it

[ivory ridge]

and if we're not being able to say 'quadjank is just jank' and have to assign it to b6 script

[fleet hedge]

Evil are only gonna rise up in the late game

[ivory ridge]

i'm unsure if i'm gonna choose tomb tbh

[fleet hedge]

And if you're leaving a Judge alive in late game that is way too risky

[sour harness]

Which is why you need the judge around late game???

[hollow oasis]

because gangster isn't very fun

[shrewd cloud]

Banshee can also help against an evil rise up, though that’d require Banshee to actually proc first

[ivory ridge]

i mean leaving a judge alive late game is insanely risky

i've never seen it

[sour harness]

True

[hollow oasis]

the answer to that is don't make the trav a gangster

[ivory ridge]

but theoretically it can be quite strong

[fleet hedge]

The judge can out evil and lose good the game on the final day, and lose them half their executions on the penultimate day

[ivory ridge]

because the good judge can just

[coarse fern]

Wasn’t this the one with evil apprentice atheist

[sour harness]

I think so

[barren zenith]

Or you can just exile them?

[shrewd cloud]

Cursed sentences

[sour harness]

I've done worse

[shrewd cloud]

Another cursed sentence

[fleet hedge]

That's what I'm trying to argue, that town should never have a judge alive in the late game

[sour harness]

Drama you should see what happens when I mention leviathan in livetext

[coarse fern]

😨

[fleet hedge]

Hystrex argues that a lot of judge's value comes from the late game, but I believe the risk far outweighs the potential value

[sour harness]

Travs are usually good

[flat lintel]

i disagree that even an unfun role should be exiled d1

if its like f5, yes, fair

but f12, is insane

[hollow oasis]

"gets shot" damn, very fun gameplay

[ivory ridge]

you know there's a solution to that right?

[fleet hedge]

For a traveller to be exiled, it's potential harm as evil needs to be more than 2 times more significant than its potential value as good

[ivory ridge]

stop playing with people who exile d1

🔥

[fleet hedge]

I argue Judge meets this criteria at all points in the game

[flat lintel]

indeed 😄

[flat lintel]

helpful comment 🤩

[ivory ridge]

just don't get shot

[flat lintel]

but you can't always control that

[hollow oasis]

the answer is don't make the trav a gangster

[flat lintel]

i played a random game of live and got d1 exiled on d1

[ivory ridge]

like saying 'get shot' is the same way as saying 'get executed'

L

its a part of the game

[hollow oasis]

make them just.... not an unfun traveller

[flat lintel]

i had no idea of knowing that

[hollow oasis]

it's an ST thing

anyway

[ivory ridge]

insanely cringy behavior from them

[flat lintel]

i feel like we just disagree

i still think even the least fun traveler can play a day of the game and be exiled

[fleet hedge]

Better than getting d1 exiled on d2

[hollow oasis]

Gangster is "my neighbor thinks I'm slightly reading evil?" DIE

have fun!

[fleet hedge]

Actually maybe it isn't

[ivory ridge]

also gangster is goodsided

[fleet hedge]

Gangster is goodsided yeah

[ivory ridge]

literally every killing traveller is

[fleet hedge]

Idk where this is coming from

[hollow oasis]

gnome is funny

at least

[flat lintel]

but also i shouldn't open up the can of worms of what it means to control a traveler

[ivory ridge]

it's basically "town is getting 1 free execution"

[fleet hedge]

To help evil, a killing traveller has to out evil, so therefore only gets one kill before being exiles

[hollow oasis]

Gangster+Gunslinger both suffer from "we will make you do this."

Gnome has 2-party verification

[river sparrow]

whats the question today

[flat lintel]

its been a two day convo i think of whats ur least fav traveler

[ivory ridge]

except town will ask you to nominate anyway

[hollow oasis]

there is no question

[ivory ridge]

i've seen that happen in both

[hollow oasis]

"I don't want to die, I have info"

[fleet hedge]

Gnome might be especially goodsided, because it can't out evil without outing a teammate

[ivory ridge]

tpi stream
online game
in person

[ivory ridge]

then they execute you????

[fleet hedge]

So Gnome is forced to play for good

[river sparrow]

my least favorite, purely because im sick of it from experience, gonna be scapegoat, but I might have to think about it a bit more

[ivory ridge]

or else don't raise your hand on first nom??? for gunslinger???

[hollow oasis]

definitely gangster

maybe gunslinger

I do not like killing travs

[river sparrow]

im surprised bmr travelers arent coming up in this conversation

[hollow oasis]

they fundamentally hurt the game

[fleet hedge]

Oh they have lol

[hollow oasis]

judge just did a thing

[fleet hedge]

Judge and Apprentice

The others are good

[river sparrow]

i would've expected matron or bishop but i guess i havent seen them be mentioned

[ivory ridge]

i swear i could write a thesis about individualism in a cooperative setting and how it impeeds socialization by the way this discussion goes 😔

[hollow oasis]

Apprentice is fine on BMR

[fleet hedge]

Matron is very fun in person

[flat lintel]

i agree 😄

[hollow oasis]

Why do I say this?

[river sparrow]

ive had a traveler ask to specifically be the scapegoat twice

speaking of apprentice on bmr

[ivory ridge]

scapegoat is fine imo

[fleet hedge]

D1 policy exile

[ivory ridge]

i like it

it is boring though

[flat lintel]

apprentice isn't bad enough to where you have to d1 exile it

no traveler is

what appre. are yall playing with

[ivory ridge]

i mean i personally don't think any trav meet that criteria

[hollow oasis]

Gangster and Gunslinger

Judge is d2 because MM

[river sparrow]

i had a game where an apprentice came in night 2 with the tea lady's ability with 2 good neighbors, one of which was a pukka poisoned fool, the courtier drank with teh apprentice that same night thereby losing good team the game

[fleet hedge]

DA, Assassin, Godfather

[shrewd cloud]

I don’t personally mind stuff like Voudon and Bishop but I do get why people dislike them. They very much define the game as long as they are alive and feel more like Fabled than Travellers

[hollow oasis]

Voudon is cool

Bishop is debatable

Matron is also debatable

(Matron is definitely better in person....)

[ivory ridge]

its cool because its the most goodsided traveller ever

[river sparrow]

i like all travelers im just sick of running some so much

[fleet hedge]

Matron?

[hollow oasis]

I dislike half of them

[ivory ridge]

yes

[fleet hedge]

What makes it goodsided?

[hollow oasis]

no bluffs

[ivory ridge]

wait not matron

voudon

[flat lintel]

they're fine

[fleet hedge]

Yeah I was gonna say

[flat lintel]

imo

[river sparrow]

ive seen surprisingly little of bureaucrats and thiefs when playing

[fleet hedge]

If Apprentice claims a powerful enough TF ability, yes

[hollow oasis]

those are not strong minions besides DA

[river sparrow]

I think I've ran one bureaucrat and that's it

[fleet hedge]

Assassin can spend N2, Godfather prob fine tho yeah

[ivory ridge]

people really do be 'x traveller change dynamic so much' and then glaze voudon

like yeah if you want to win as good just say it

[flat lintel]

but than could also kill random evil

[hollow oasis]

Voudon is fun

[flat lintel]

d1 voudon is funny

[fleet hedge]

It still messes up kill count on BMR

[hollow oasis]

I mean BMR is evilsided so voudon is fine /j

[fleet hedge]

like yeah the right TF ability Apprentice won't be exiles

But if it's like Exorcist or something

[river sparrow]

imagine apprentice fool

exile them once and they just dont die

[fleet hedge]

Also past D2 mastermind becomes a possibility

[fleet hedge]

That confirms them as good

[river sparrow]

yeah

[fleet hedge]

Trav next to a TL is powerful

Apprentice Sailor is really strong

[river sparrow]

ive actually played as matron before

so i know what a digital matron game feels like

[fleet hedge]

How does a digital matron game even work

[river sparrow]

i somehow got lucky enough to be sat inbetween the minstrel and their grandmother, so the grandmother just had me confirm them

[river sparrow]

private dms with your neighbors

[fleet hedge]

But no VC with them?

[river sparrow]

no

[fleet hedge]

That sounds so boring

[river sparrow]

the only vc that can be used is st consult and town square

[next vault]

I've done matron in digital

it was BMR

[river sparrow]

same

it mightve been same game

[next vault]

but we could have private chats with our neighbours

[river sparrow]

nevermind

[next vault]

I think Acaila was the matron in that one

[river sparrow]

ah

[fleet hedge]

I would argue neither really emulates in person matron

Like anyone can speak to the whole group at any time but you can whisper with your neighbours

[river sparrow]

yeah thats how it worked when i played digitally

[fleet hedge]

But like in person you can use your voice to whisper

Much more natural and fun

[river sparrow]

everybody is in the public vc just mostly dming their neighbors (whispering in their ear)

but some public discussion will happen

[next vault]

I think Matron is mostly goodsided

[fleet hedge]

In what way?

[next vault]

Because it blocks minions and demons from talking to one another

[river sparrow]

yeah

[river sparrow]

exactly

[fleet hedge]

A town that wants to can block minions and demons from talking to each other

[river sparrow]

What travelers have i not played with i dont know

[fleet hedge]

Like you could enforce matron without the trav, minus the moving part

[river sparrow]

i dont think i've ever had a thief, never had a harlot, don't think ive ever had voudon

[next vault]

And if you dont do what town asks you to do you're going to be exiled

Harlot is cool

[fleet hedge]

I think people overestimate the power of evil coordination

[next vault]

Voudon is really bad

I dont like Voudon

[river sparrow]

ive had multiple gnomes and multiple scapegoats, probably some other travelers

ive st-ed a bishop and played with a bishop before

[next vault]

it's mostly minions not having bluffs

in a script like BMR

[river sparrow]

in the game i st-ed people just exiled the bishop because i was wasting time

[next vault]

bishop is just bad

I don't like it

[fleet hedge]

I do think on BMR people are usually too cagey

So Matron is probably more just gonna enforce a good play pattern for the script in particular

[hollow oasis]

depends on the players

[next vault]

Oh yeah

[tacit fiber]

Depression which is on Emotions

[next vault]

I remember being the Gambler in said Matron game

[next vault]

send json/bloodstar link

if you can ofc

[fleet hedge]

BMR is the one edition where people don't share enough and let evil get away with too much in terms of pivots and excuses

[river sparrow]

me as matron or acaila as matron?

[next vault]

honestly yeah

[next vault]

acaila

[river sparrow]

do you think its possible me and acaila are the only 2 people in this server to have played as matron in a game on the server?

[next vault]

And there was a incident

[next vault]

no

[fleet hedge]

There will be the other at least 5 players in your game

At least 6 actually

[next vault]

❤️

[fleet hedge]

And considering it's a live game on this server probably exactly 11

[next vault]

12 + traveller

[river sparrow]

no im talking about being the matron themself

[river sparrow]

traveler is counted for the 12 person max for non-scheduled games on this server

[sharp violet]

by "the server" do you specifically mean this one, or any server?

[next vault]

wait really?

[river sparrow]

this one

[fleet hedge]

Why does that max even exist?

[river sparrow]

yes, i once talked about travelling in a 12 player game and i was told "We already have 12"

[river sparrow]

i dont know

[sharp violet]

unfortunate (I have been Matron in a text game on another server)

[next vault]

idk, 15 person games take a lot of time???

but I dont understand why dont we have 3 minion games

other than ofc, the best minion in the game,

[river sparrow]

but then scheduled games you can have up to 15 even 20 if you add travelers in

[fleet hedge]

Speaking of player counts I honestly think base 0 outsider player counts (7, 10, 13, maybe less so with 7 tho) are my favourites

[next vault]

eh

base 0 is boring

outsiders are spicy

[fleet hedge]

Usually I find being an outsider boring but I love the dynamic of knowing an Omod character is in play

I know I'm probably the only person who thinks this but seeing people switch to traveller to avoid playing base 0 always baffles me

[river sparrow]

already lets do a player count tierlist

say what tier the number should go in, ill take the average

Starting with 5

[fleet hedge]

4/5: Make a player count tier list 🙂

[river sparrow]

S-F

seriously?

[barren zenith]

8 and 11 player on top icl

And 6p for teensies ofc

[river sparrow]

we did this topic before?

[hollow oasis]

remember time isn't real

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1367732311654666270 so a rift forms again

[river sparrow]

What tier does 5 player go into, S, A, B, C, D, or F

[next vault]

B or C