secret thing

[hollow oasis]

and, you are shitty empath

[fast anchor]

and then you die evil

[hollow oasis]

I mean

like

skill issue have multiple cult leader claims

[sour harness]

This is why cl works on the phantom detectives and nowhere else

[fast anchor]

no it goes on whose cult

because it can't die

[sour harness]

Oh true

[ivory ridge]

that disproportionately help evil than good

because evil uh

know where the evil are

[foggy grotto]

bro clearly has not played with modified Cult Leader

[hollow oasis]

I played with normal cult leader

Cult leader is a TF

[foggy grotto]

my condolences

[hollow oasis]

it was fun

Cult Leader simply is not being played with the whimsical

[sour harness]

CL should work even if dead

[foggy grotto]

CL is either d1 rerack or extra evil

[foggy grotto]

or use Modified Cult Leader™️ 😎

(i can't call it Kenoboi Cult Leader because idk if someone thought of it before me)

[sour harness]

True but the character has enough overhead as it is

Even if dead is very very very easy to understand

[foggy grotto]

mhm

[sour harness]

How are you gonna fit what's essentially a poli flip on top of an already unique keyword

[foggy grotto]

uh hangon i can grab the exact wording

[lean isle]

What is modified CL?

[foggy grotto]

"Each night, you learn the alignment of one of your alive neighbors. If all good players choose to join your cult, you become that alignment and your team wins."

[lean isle]

Interesting

[foggy grotto]

basically prevents them from just becoming evil and playing with evil to win normally

but still allows them to lie about their info to get a cult win with evil

[gusty bear]

is this meant as how it plays or how it balances

because i have disputes with different things in each case

(also, literally everything should go in depends a lot if that's a category, but i understand that's not the point of the tierlist)

[honest tide]

The original question was just how damaging the outsiders are to the good team

[gusty bear]

oh i see

[honest tide]

Honestly if I included huntsman on my tier list it’d be so much higher than a lot of the outsiders (worse than things like barber) because it’s essentially a good sided baron with very limited upside

But I only included mechanical outsiders

[gusty bear]

huntsman is worse than barber is a wild take

[honest tide]

Maybe not barber specifically but it’s certainly worse than something like mutant, recluse, or even puzzle master

In base 0 it’s so much worse because it’s almost exactly a good sided baron (adds damsel and uses huntsman instead of a real TF)

[next marlin]

Stop running Huntsman +1

(though even Huntsman +1 at worst breaks even with Puzzlemaster and realistically is a bit milder just because the Damsel knows they're an outsider and registers as one)

Much of what makes pm brutal is that it adds an outsider that perfectly misregisters

[honest tide]

Base 0 you don’t have a choice. Also when I’m saying it’s a good sided baron I’m mostly meaning it as a joke but legitimately it is taking a townsfolk spot for a character that is (most of the time) an outsider in practice

Puzzle master you could at least say “this person is 100% not the demon” and have that be your ability. It’s not a great ability but it’s better than huntsman

[next marlin]

Base 0 you can have other outsider mod

[honest tide]

You can but that being a necessity at base 0 to make your character slightly less like an outsider is very bad

[next marlin]

Huntsman +1 is a thing the role needs to have as a possibility for Heretic scripts but there's no reason to run it on a non-Heretic script

[next marlin]

I think this take misses two big things in the comparison:

1. Huntsman removes an outsider if it hits the turn. It's a -1 outsider townsfolk, not a +1 outsider townsfolk (on a non-Heretic script where the ST knows what they're doing). The balance point to make a -1 outsider townsfolk functional is really difficult, because even having the full ability be [-1 Outsider] is incredibly goodsided (outsiders are worse than blank tokens). A Huntsman that gets the turn off (which isn't that rare, and is more common than a PM hitting because of #2) creates a significant confirmation chain and replaces a detrimental ability with a very useful one that the evil team has limited mechanical counterplay to (it's tough to get them executed, and depending what they are you might not be able to easily kill them). A Puzzlemaster who guesses correctly still has their drunk running around, so if for whatever reason the game continues (e.g. demon mobility) they just have an unfalsifiable guess and an unfalsifiable drunk.
2. The puzzledrunk is a mechanically invisible face-down outsider. It has perfect misregistration. Not only does PM add an outsider as a true +1, it adds an outsider no one can find that has no way of knowing their own status. This is so brutal that the balance point needs to be "you literally win the game" or else it's the most devastating outsider possible -- the parallel isn't Drunk, it's a super-Fibbin that can act every night and disable mechanical effects. Damsel is pretty brutal, but it shouldn't be an additional outsider and, importantly, it knows it's the Damsel and can create trust chains with confirmed players that lead it to the Huntsman.

[honest tide]

I’d argue on most scripts puzzledrunk is about as trackable as the drunk token. There’s very few roles that check for outsiders or specific tokens. Also huntsman is not powerful enough to justify guaranteeing that one of the outsiders in the game is the literal most damaging outsider in BOTC. Also I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen a huntsman find their damsel before they are either dead or guessed by evil. I think huntsman +1 is a very damaging outsider. I think huntsman +0 is also pretty damaging, and in the one out of 12 games it actually hits it’s a good to great townsfolk depending on when you turn them.

[cyan reef]

Damsel being the "most damaging Outsider in BotC" is quite a stretch tbh

and, funny enough, Huntsman makes Damsel a bit less damaging, because the Huntsman's power is knowing that a Damsel is in play in the first place

people tend to think of Huntsman as only the character that never turns a Damsel, or is always adding in a Damsel by not-so-great storytelling, and it unfortunately misses its biggest point

[next marlin]

Damsel (Townsfolk): On day 3, all players learn a Minion player.

[cyan reef]

I rarely see Damsel guesses tbh

and even more rarely do evil get an actual win from it

though, funny enough, on Friday I ran one game that had evil winning via Damsel, and another where the Huntsman found the Damsel, both of which I rarely see

go figure

[tidal quiver]

Damsel is just mutant but evil will audibly inform you when you have the demon on the block and a lift is unlikely

[next marlin]

Not a bad parallel yeah

It's a somewhat more damaging Klutz in that they're both losscon outsiders that help town if the losscon doesn't go off

[tidal quiver]

yeah

[next marlin]

I always liked Temp's observation of how people see Klutz as townsidery and Damsel as uniquely awful despite them being pretty near the same just because Klutz is more individually agentic

[tacit fiber]

I see Mutant and Damsel on approximately the same level of outsiderness

[cyan reef]

I designed Extension Cord almost exactly like this...the Outsiders there have a range of how willing they normally would want to be public...Damsel is on the far end because Barber is on the script so it makes outing after death a dangerous prospect still, while Mutant will likely not want to out while alive but will be okay to do so while dead

[stable latch]

Hear me out…
Puzzlemaster is better than Huntsman

Puzzlemaster adds a Drunk

Huntsman adds a Damsel

If the Puzzlemaster finds the drunk they learn the demon

If the Huntsman finds the damsel the damsel gains an ability

If someone feels like they have misinfo there’s no downside to telling the PM that

If someone is the Damsel there’s a MASSIVE downside to telling the Huntsman that in case they are a minion bluffing huntsman

[next marlin]

Puzzlemaster adds a super-fibbin -- it helps town in the same sense "Sentinel suddenly appearing on the Fabled tab partway through the game" does or an unspecified "an ST mistake may have been made, but I think I can fix it" in the middle of the night without any warning or clarification does

Like, yes, you know there's a super-fibbin. Have fun

[tacit fiber]

holy shit Vati actually so based

[next marlin]

Huntsman has rough edges and is pretty weak for a townsfolk but these are unavoidable consequences of it being the closest viable design to a [-1 Outsider] townsfolk and much of the reputation of it as comparable to massively damaging outsiders comes from a mix of:

1. many STs underestimating how hard positive outsider mod swings a game's balance and being too quick to put it in setups, and in particular being too willing to run Huntsman +1 ever
2. many people assuming Damsel is some sort of turbo-damaging hyper-outsider that ruins games it touches as opposed to Hard Mode Klutz (generally from not seeing it enough)

[feral snow]

obligatory just put it on heretic scripts

[next marlin]

That's the environment for +1 but Damsel and Huntsman work well on many scripts where Heretic does not

[feral snow]

That much I agree with

[gusty bear]

i think the only time i've ever seen damsel losses are when people outed damsel to a minion day 1 or hard double claimed chambermaid whilst nominating the real chambermaid instead of backing down to pixie

on the other hand, i've seen a ton of puzzlemaster losses (games where missolving who's puzzledrunk has lost good the game)

[minor pier]

As to point 2, I can tell you all but one of my longtext games, with a Damsel in, have ended with an evil win through a Damsel guess.
Including a Quantum one.
Sure, it's gamemode/context dependant - but if the evil team is on top of things or the format/group meta lends itself to it, it'll absolutely blow up your game.

[ivory ridge]

just don't make it a once per game 😭

[feral snow]

I gotta finish my blog posts

[foggy grotto]

yeah patters huntsman is pretty great

[versed junco]

clearly a divisive topic

[supple dirge]

Lets make it 1/2 per game

[ivory ridge]

its fine squall is known for hating fun and whimsy

being away from me has turn him into an old man rambling about “back in the day” (read: 2021)

[feral snow]

I do infamously hate fun and whimsy

[sour harness]

Just like the rest of the server regulars

(except me all my opinions are correct 😇)

[next marlin]

There are different ways in which we do

[lean isle]

A chart of terrible takes :D

[sour harness]

Spy IS a townsfolk!!!

Someone doesn't like on death outsiders

[lean isle]

Yep 😇

[feral snow]

lol I see how you feel about outsiders

[zenith lotus]

except moonchild and klutz

[sour harness]

Guess he really likes claiming his role

[feral snow]

I like how heretic is right there and you still said this

[foggy grotto]

barber is definitely more fun than hatter since you might get into a confirmation chain

[sour harness]

I mean it's just that those are the outsiders that need to claim

[foggy grotto]

hatter is super fun to run as ST

but not super fun to play

[lean isle]

Real

[ivory ridge]

guys hear me out

wait wrong phrasing

damsel is more damaging than heretic

huff copium

[lean isle]

Interesting take.

[ivory ridge]

is this because the amount of damsel loss i’ve suffered recently? yes

[ivory ridge]

ok so let’s think about this

[foggy grotto]

i mean heretic can win games yes

[ivory ridge]

if you find a townsfolk that has info that isn’t lining up with the game state, wdyd

[sour harness]

I've seen philo heretic win about as much as I've seen heretic lose

[ivory ridge]

for heretic you need to actively pull the trigger

and by f3 it’s arguably more damaging for you since now it’s a 66/33 not a 33/66

[pure meadow]

This gave me flashbacks to the demon datability chart and I got scared

[lean isle]

Oh god

[ivory ridge]

like damsel is so much safer than heretic for evil, it gives evil a lot more agency, and the announcement that a damsel is in play also help evil to actively pinpoint vs heretic

[sour harness]

I think sweetheart is the most datable outsider.... maybe too datable

[hollow oasis]

we are not doing this shit again

[ivory ridge]

goon hehe

[feral snow]

Put them together :)

[sour harness]

NO

[pure meadow]

Seems bad with break ups though

[sour harness]

:(

[ivory ridge]

maybe i should make a script that maximize damsel in play

that’s be fun

maximum paranoia

[sour harness]

Garden of Damsel: [all outsiders are Damsels, the Demon is randomly executed day 1]

[barren zenith]

What's the question?

[sour harness]

No idea

[lean isle]

I think initial day question was make tierlist of Outsiders by damage or something.

[sour harness]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1189953512768020581/1355233978038223221/image0.jpg?ex=67ec23ff&is=67ead27f&hm=33ba36578d1e2db6347ea3a3fa5ecf4ca64157de97421a832d21dcc0691aa5db&

[hollow oasis]

D2 for balance

[pure meadow]

This probably?

[sour harness]

Nah d1 is canon

[hollow oasis]

What’s the lore here

[sour harness]

https://youtu.be/Nrhw8oRMs_I?si=IH6rK-0aUg3dZWAw

[ivory ridge]

wait damsel levi script kinda cook right?

actually no i lie

[sour harness]

Damsel is oppressive if it can't die

But like

You can do it

[lean isle]

Yeah

[barren zenith]

I like damsel levi

[sour harness]

Huntsman is also a character in the game

[gusty bear]

hey my opinions are always correct, even when people think they're wrong initially

[pure meadow]

That’s just hhr

[sour harness]

Yeah

[foggy grotto]

same

[pure meadow]

My opinions are always correct, especially when they are wrong

[gusty bear]

for what it's worth i'm referencing the introduction of wizard and the alchemist change

[hollow oasis]

Guys

[ivory ridge]

what about damsel for demon like yag lm ojo?

[hollow oasis]

Hear me out

Alch wizard

Force them to wish

(Say choose again if they don’t use their ability)

[gusty bear]

that's not how that works (i know you're doing a bit i just feel compelled to say in case anyone gets confused)

[hollow oasis]

Is it not? (If you wake them at night)

[gusty bear]

*role alchemist

[low burrow]

Alchemist (Townsfolk) - Experimental

You have a Minion ability. When using this, the Storyteller may prompt you to choose differently.

**Affects Setup: **False

[gusty bear]

no, because you're not using it

[hollow oasis]

*role wizard

[low burrow]

Wizard (Minion) - Experimental

Once per game, choose to make a wish. If granted, it might have a price & leave a clue as to its nature.

**Affects Setup: **False

[gusty bear]

it's like how you can't force an alch assassin to kill

[hollow oasis]

“Choose to make a wish” and “prompt to choose differently”

[gusty bear]

declining to use your ability isn't using your ability

[ivory ridge]

just use amnesiac for alch wizard shenanigans

[barren zenith]

"I wish for a new storyteller."

They can't deny your choice if they aren't the ST anymore 😉

[ivory ridge]

granted, ChatGPT will now be the storyteller

[pure meadow]

Granted, you now have to storytell and the st takes over your spot

[hollow oasis]

Granted, The dice is the ST now and all decisions are random

[minor pier]

Remember when I said I saw lots and lots of Damsel losses ? One of those was a Yag game. Evil found the Damsel, the Minion was pretty sure of it, then decided to keep it in its pocket just in case for later to save their Demon.
After one night/day with no guess, I decided to kill the Damsel. Use it or lose it, pretty fair to me. Good lost two days later to a Damsel guess with the Yaggababble on the block, who hadn't said the phrase once since then.

[barren zenith]

You can't guess a dead damsel?

What happened there?

[minor pier]

I wanted to kill the Damsel. I couldn't, since the Yag didn't say the phrase for 2 days.

[barren zenith]

Oh

Right

[minor pier]

So, in theory, ST kills + Damsel works fine, you can balance it on the fly. In practice, Yag or protection roles might throw wrenches into that ^^'

[lost thistle]

Garten of DamsDams

[honest tide]

[Definitely not the joke day]: Favorite Werewolf character?

[foggy grotto]

Villager. Having a responsibility in the game is just too much work and effort. I’d much rather just sit back and get murdered by a pack of hungry lycanthropes

[cold veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/villager-car-crash-minecraft-movie-villager-car-crash-hit-by-car-gif-8595449981213641967

[sour harness]

That's a really interesting point!! However my favorite character is instead the Villager, because it has none of the power and none of the responsibility

[feral snow]

Jester. It’s perfect for botc

[dense moat]

Seer. Its Villiage Idiot with no fear of getting icky bad info. Leads to such fun social games.

[tacit fiber]

Alpha Werewolf

it's fun weaving the word into conversation while ppl try to sniff you out

[supple dirge]

I love Big Mouth Wolf: Choose 2 players each night to eliminate. A player you choose the previous night might come back to life.

[fast anchor]

Clarke

[digital drum]

@tawny cave people are talking about you

[alpine silo]

Hunter from ultimate werewolf because I like murder

[fast anchor]

im a little upset that someone got to this question first, because I had a really funny one

[honest tide]

sorry 😦

[alpine silo]

just pretend its april fools tomorrow. thats the ultimate april fools

[honest tide]

It is multiple fools

[dense moat]

+0 to +2 Fools

[tidal quiver]

now I'm imagining some strange super-high-deathmod script where all players have the fool's ability

[hollow oasis]

BMR but all the TF are fools

Binary Supernovae but BMR

[tidal quiver]

I was thinking something slightly more functional but yeah, it might make gambler cooler b/c you sorta have 2 uses left and the only way to check once you've hit once is to execute you

[iron scarab]

fool. its like saint but better

[dry sluice]

my favorite werewolf role is the humble [Activated Impossible] [Even-Night Stealthy] Desperate Haunting Jack-of-All-Trades Interdimensional Traveler Neapolitan Bus Driver

[dense moat]

(why were we here again?): What is your favorite B3 Minion to play as on their home script? Why?

[stable latch]

Witch 100%

It feels the most active

Getting a witch kill makes you feel like you are contributing to the game rather than a poisoner picking someone and it getting either solved which is sad or left unsolved which isn’t as much fun as a witch proc, also witch focuses on general social plays rather than picking a player because they are a specific character. Like picking an Oracle or a Philo would be nice but just picking that one player who you know will nominate and them doing it is so fulfilling

Yap over 😭

My least favourites are Assassin and Evil Twink

[cold veldt]

🤨

evil twink?

[next marlin]

"evil twink"

[cold veldt]

obligatory point me in their direction but

🤨

[fast anchor]

D/A, probably - there's so much you can do from goon hunting to bluffing a Townsfolk to just being loud and making people look sus

[sour harness]

Pithag gaming

Pithag gaming

[foggy grotto]

Scarlet woman, it allows both me and my demon to play more actively and make crazier plays. Also, I like being the demon more than a minion so this is a close alternative

[alpine silo]

evil twin because i keep winning as evil twin

[feral snow]

I feel like I’m never a minion and when I am I always lose

I’ll say Cerenovus even though I never pull it

[fast anchor]

alternatively: godfather on its homescript of clockwork cyborg

[stable latch]

What?

Oh

Shit

I hate just being a Cerenovus but being outed evil Cerenovus is almost my favourite

There are some minions that are just more fun if you out evil

[acoustic chasm]

I like Scarlet Woman. It allows me to push on my Demon to get lots of social credit on Trouble Brewing

Being a minion who can vote on their own demon and allow other minions to vote on their own demon is so wonderful socially

It's design makes evil work well being against each other too

Which I like

I care more about my social credit than others... which is not a good trait for this game, but is a reason why I like SW

Honourable mention to Pit Hag, who can go very silly off their own power.

[tidal quiver]

yeah I'm gonna say pit hag, who I've only ever been once

but good demons and minions are so funny

[fast anchor]

I've been the Pit-Hag once before... it's not all it's cracked up to be

I made a good No Dashii, a good Witch, then hagged myself into the evil twin and we still won of a Klutz pick instead of, like, something goofy

[tidal quiver]

oh, that's a shame

[fast anchor]

(i got twinned with the witch and we silently agreed to just not out it)

[next marlin]

I mean you don't do those things to win off the back of them alone, you do them to confuse people long enough that the klutz trustfalls with an evil

[fast anchor]

oh wait I'm deleting my other S&V PH game from my memory

[next marlin]

Yeah I was about to ask

[tidal quiver]

I feel like pit hag has a really high skill ceiling such that I'd have a lot of fun every time I drew it, and, while I don't want to hate on something like the MM, and I'm sure there's a ton of depth to the MM that I don't know, it surely doesn't feel new and fresh like the ~5th time

[fast anchor]

where I did the textplayer strat of making a Fang Gu and making Outsiders and outing the entire evil team to the Mutant I told the Fang Gu to jump to (he jumped to the outed Klutz instead)

[acoustic chasm]

My first pit hag game got me dreamer sniped

[fast anchor]

and then we fiddled and the evil team voted for the wrong person

[acoustic chasm]

Me correctly guessing the Townsfolk I was sniped me

[next marlin]

okay the fiddler part I didn't know

[fast anchor]

someone had to leave

[acoustic chasm]

And then Turning myself into the snake charmer and swapping with the Fang Gu who was the sweetheart who was jumped to

And winning in f3 because I was 'confirmed savant'

[next marlin]

my only pithag snv game thus far is the good vortox incident for which I need redemption

but that was 8p clock artist dreamer we were never winning anyway

[karmic slate]

bhamber >:(

[fast anchor]

found the evil twink

[karmic slate]

It’s the Lil’ Monsta

[tardy wyvern]

Seconded

[sour harness]

Does this imply the existence of a good twink

[fast anchor]

i don't think calling lil monsta a twink is ethical

[ivory ridge]

"i can fix him"

[fast anchor]

there you go hystrex

[sour harness]

LOL

[alpine silo]

ill take a think that's either good or evil tbh

[ivory ridge]

good twink and evil twink .

[karmic slate]

No no, it’s not a twink- it’s what makes the evil

[fast anchor]

I see

[stable latch]

what have i started 😭

[ivory ridge]

wait

how does executing the good twin who hold lm work

[sour harness]

Evil wins

Well

But evil should win that

Kill the evil twin earlier, nothing about this is unwinnable

[cold veldt]

i trust in the evil twink to make me worse

[stable latch]

real

[ivory ridge]

hey i just want to say

actually no nothing i say can get to you

[cold veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/pedro-raccoon-raccoon-pedro-raccoon-meme-memes-gif-11191191849383051209

[fast anchor]

turn evil first and then you might have a chance

[ivory ridge]

bold for you to assume im a twink

squall is 100% though

[fast anchor]

you're either a twink, a girltwink, or some flavor of non-binary twink

[next marlin]

Is there a height limit

[fast anchor]

that's the vision

[ivory ridge]

vati also applying to be a twink? i see i see

squall is like, twink in denial

[cold veldt]

finally, the Legion of Twinks will become real

[next marlin]

I was making an index card reference as to reasons you might not qualify

[fast anchor]

anyway no

i don't think so, anyway

[feral snow]

Mizu is not a twink lol

[fast anchor]

is she like secretly buff or????

[feral snow]

I don’t feel like I am either

[feral snow]

I wouldn’t say buff

[ivory ridge]

ok you can stop the doxxing there

[feral snow]

Just not twink

[fast anchor]

mizu has to be a twink that's my mental image

[feral snow]

lol have fun with that

[next marlin]

I have enough detail to extrapolate a mental image of mizu from and I think I'm pretty dead on (and it's not of a twink)

[feral snow]

I’m also not a twink

[feral snow]

I have to know because I just know it’s wrong

[fast anchor]

this is a known fact about me but i do just think of people as their pfps

[next marlin]

I mean I know mizu's person archetype

[fast anchor]

squall is a chicken

[next marlin]

I'm just envisioning a variant of that adjusted to specific things I know

[tidal quiver]

what conversation have I just walked into

[next marlin]

Sharkly made a typo

[tidal quiver]

is the letter M a twink or no, I need the official Axo decree

[fast anchor]

the letter M is not, but I get the vibe off you

so congrats on being one of the only divergences

[tidal quiver]

thank you, I guess

[feral snow]

Letter M isn’t a twink, your letter M is

[fast anchor]

(most of them come from me knowing what people look like irl; this "twink-read" one is new to me)

[tidal quiver]

lol

[cold veldt]

webcam hacker axo arc?

[tidal quiver]

"yeah I read x as twink" is gonna be my newest livetext message

[ivory ridge]

if it make you feels better many person in the club thought i'm a twink until they met me and just like "what"

[tidal quiver]

I don't think of myself as a twink, but if I was, I would definetly be the evil twink

[cold veldt]

i thought it was M not x

[fast anchor]

new question: where along the good twink/evil twink scale do you fall, and what's the other axis

[feral snow]

Most of our club is twinks to be fair

[tidal quiver]

well you gotta wait until tomorrow to ask

[fast anchor]

that doesn't stop mizu half the time

[ivory ridge]

i aspire to have your level of cognitive dissonance

[feral snow]

Good twink, other axis is bear and I’m like 1/3 of the way up

[fast anchor]

ooooh that's a good other axis

it also does just exclude most women though

[tidal quiver]

maybe it's an alignment chart: on 1 axis is good - traveler - evil, and something else on the other

now I wanna make a botc character twink alignment chart, wtf am I doing with my life

[next marlin]

I think my lore has a consensus reading for this historically but I need to know botcu's

[tardy wyvern]

What a great time to tab into the secret thing channel

[cold veldt]

is up there

don't @ me

[tidal quiver]

I don't see the vision but ok

[ivory ridge]

oh is 100% an evil twink

[tidal quiver]

Vizier and mez are definetly evil twinks IMO

[fast anchor]

i personally think pukka's a woman, but i see the vision

[ivory ridge]

n-no?

[cold veldt]

that's valid

[ivory ridge]

mez is 100% evil twink

vizier is like

[next marlin]

Vizier? No

[ivory ridge]

dom

[fast anchor]

vizier is NOT a twink

[cold veldt]

this is vizier

[ivory ridge]

but like not dom twink

[fast anchor]

yeah exactly

definitely not

[next marlin]

You seem to possess some interesting dichotomies

[tidal quiver]

I like the idea of the vizier in actuality being completely different from their ability, but maybe that's just me

[ivory ridge]

do not call me out dies

[next marlin]

You're not respecting the lore Magica

[tidal quiver]

ok but PM is a twink and there's no disagreeing

[ivory ridge]

at this point vati is actually gonna map me out irl

[fast anchor]

as if he hasn't already

[next marlin]

The incredibly elaborate lore for BotC that exists only in my head

Anyway read my novelization

[ivory ridge]

cerenovus is a twink i think

[tidal quiver]

I'm so sorry for not respecting the very elaborately laid lore that is all perfectly available upon a cranial inspection of VaticidalProphet

[fast anchor]

well the cerenovus was the savant first

[ivory ridge]

mostly because i see cerenovus as vati

[fast anchor]

the savant could be a twink

i see it

[ivory ridge]

and vati is canonically a twink in my head

[next marlin]

Correct

[fast anchor]

hi waffles

[pure meadow]

Hai!

[next marlin]

I think this is at least a take some people have so I'll take it

[fast anchor]

no comment

[cold veldt]

secret thing question: "What is your favorite B3 Minion to play as on their home script? Why?"
secret thing discussion: "twinks"

[fast anchor]

anyway the other bmr demons are nowhere close to twink

[tidal quiver]

putting the "win" in "twink"

[fast anchor]

s&v... yeah no none at all

maybe nd if you're freaky but still no

[ivory ridge]

fang gu is a girl or a twink

[cold veldt]

fang gu is air

[fast anchor]

fang girl is just a nb possession ghost i think

[next marlin]

Ok moth cultist

[cold veldt]

could be a girl

but still air

[fast anchor]

air is not a twink

[cold veldt]

indeed!

although... breathes in

nah

[fast anchor]

this is a line of dialogue in hollow knight i think

[tidal quiver]

mayybe I could see Kazali or Ojo as a twink but I don't think that there's many demons that fit

[fast anchor]

kaz as comp sci twink i can see

[next marlin]

It's a line of dialogue in Cultist Simulator

[fast anchor]

ojo... no i think she's too much of a girlfailure to be a twink

[cold veldt]

ojo is LITERALLY an eyeball floating in the sky i would not call my eyes twinks

[ivory ridge]

hear me out

[fast anchor]

i will believe you at your word

[tidal quiver]

maybe you wouldn't

[ivory ridge]

vigormortis is a twink

but like, a rich one

[fast anchor]

no

[next marlin]

See according to official BotC lore (real) the Kazali used to be the Cerenovus who also used to be the Savant so I think we need to commit to the same answer

[fast anchor]

absolutely not

vigor is not a twink

[cold veldt]

the vigor's key maybe

but not the vigor

[fast anchor]

the key is a key

keys are not boys

they're keys

[cold veldt]

sorry i'm just too twink-brained 😔

[tidal quiver]

oh I did not know about the Kazali part of the cere/savant lore, I will internalize it and adjust in the future

[next marlin]

That part is set after snv

[cold veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/1984-gif-19260546

[tidal quiver]

"keys are not boys
they're keys"
This is absolute poetry

[ivory ridge]

statement of all time

bhamber's head is dan and phil and troye sivan

got it

[fast anchor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/123936675209412608/1338362335018090547/image0.gif

[tidal quiver]

how dare you call cats ancient evil

I think you mean "the last bastion of hope"

[fast anchor]

holy shit that's a script

[tidal quiver]

also such a Fenrir moment

[ivory ridge]

last bastion of hope and it's a damsel script

(the hope is for evil)

[coarse fern]

Baron

Because shenanigans

[fast anchor]

thank you pebbles

[tidal quiver]

thank you for bringing us out of this pit

[fast anchor]

this pedagogic pit

of pendulums

[ivory ridge]

omg i didn't see this
Pit Hag

pit hag is just a super fun character

baron too but tb role are boring

[fast anchor]

i mean yeah kinda

[tidal quiver]

Mizu must have thought that the day's question was literally about twints

[coarse fern]

Oh everyone prolly said pit hag

[ivory ridge]

oh it's a real script

[coarse fern]

Boring

[fast anchor]

did you think it wasn't????

[tidal quiver]

wow okay (I did say pit hag and feel called out)

[ivory ridge]

pit hag is secretly a twink

in disguise

[coarse fern]

I mean it’s the obvious choice

[tidal quiver]

really, it is? In my head, baron as outed evil is the most obvious choice

but I digress

[feral snow]

i hate playing outed evil unless I voluntarily do it

like if someone just proves i’m evil and I don’t want to be it sucks ass

but i like being Psychopath, Evil twin, etc.

or just outing evil on my own terms

I don’t like Baron tbh

[ivory ridge]

we all know you hate fun and whimsy

[feral snow]

I do

[fast anchor]

so evil twink then

[tidal quiver]

"so you should totally come play this social deduction game with me, I play it online in a discord server and we talk about evil twinks all day!"
"uhh....." runs away

[cold veldt]

clearly they ran to their computer to immediately join

[modern plume]

What nonsense have you all brought into this conversation

[tidal quiver]

clearly, and that must also be why they stopped all communication with me

so invested in botc that they have no time for regular conversation

[cold veldt]

or so invested in twinks

you never know

[honest tide]

To answer the question
TB: Baron. It’s so fun to just cause chaos and not mind too much if you get killed
BMR: DA I love framing people as the DA and protecting good players
SNV: Cerenovus because similar to baron it causes a bunch of chaos.

If i had to choose one it’d be baron I think

[fast anchor]

hi quilava

we got distracted

[tidal quiver]

"distracted" I think you mean that we finally started talking about the stuff that really matters in botc

[coarse fern]

I prefer risky bluffs to outed evil type bluffs

Stuff like mayor

[modern plume]

I can see that

[tidal quiver]

that's fair

[sour harness]

yeah i mean just LOOK at the pfp

[pseudo fulcrum]

how did this develop from such a simple question

[next marlin]

Typo

Or Freudian slip

[ivory ridge]

wdym

my pfp is very normal

[feral snow]

You look nothing like this

Maybe vaguely the hair

[ivory ridge]

yes i do 🔥

wait lemme send the full image

[feral snow]

Let’s get a photo and see shall we

[ivory ridge]

that's just me fr fr

both of them, at the same time

[tidal quiver]

I look just like the picture frame

[feral snow]

I really don’t see it

[next marlin]

My mental image is so correct

[ivory ridge]

yo what is this

what do you think i look like

[sour harness]

Look in the mirror

That's what he thinks you look like

[ivory ridge]

wait why do i see bad bunny

.

maybe i'm him fr fr

[next marlin]

I think you look like someone who is of your height and has a characteristic I know about you that I can extrapolate things from and is the kind of person to use the profile pic you use on discord

[tidal quiver]

when it comes to Vati, there is no "thinks," there is only "knows"

[ivory ridge]

💀

[tidal quiver]

I know this because I am the occultist, who must be mad that they learned something new every day and can visit the storyteller to learn a fact once per game

[ivory ridge]

you'd be a great politician irl

answering question that way

[next marlin]

I think the last of the three clauses is the funniest personally

Anyway yeah I should personally rule the galaxy

[ivory ridge]

even if that comes with the fact that you will be percieved by everyone?

[next marlin]

I want to be perceived by people just under exactly the terms I set for them to do so

[fast anchor]

if it means everyone gets to grow wings i'd be down

[tidal quiver]

I feel like Vati reigning would mean that you might be mad that you have wings, not actually get them

[fast anchor]

awwwww

[next marlin]

Reality is my opinion so we'll work it out somehow

[tidal quiver]

what's that one homebrew minion "things you're mad about might come true"

that's just Vati irl

I have proof, Vati once accused me in a game and I suddenly became the demon IRL

[next marlin]

Omen

[pure meadow]

omen from lies, spies and eyes?

[tidal quiver]

that sounds right

I'm really trying to make an "oh man that's cool" joke right now

[pure meadow]

Did not say lies twice, nope

[fast anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/bye-lies-lie-why-you-gif-12828596

[tidal quiver]

lies, lies and lies is gonna be my new solo vortox script

[next marlin]

This is more true than you might think

[sour harness]

That's so threatening

[ivory ridge]

but even those who are worshipped are changing its form over time

so maybe

*spooky music*

[cold veldt]

surely that'd be truths, truths and truths?

[ivory ridge]

lies lies or truth also work 🔥

[iron scarab]

baron because i think i can count the number of base games ive played on two hands and the number of times ive pulled minion out of those games with two fingers and the other one was cerenovus in a d2 hardsolved snv text game

[fast anchor]

3/4: Come up with abilities for the Demagogue and Beguiler.

[acoustic chasm]

Hi

[feral snow]

Demagogue: Once per game, at night*, choose a player: they might die, even if for some reason they could not.

[acoustic chasm]

pfff

[sour harness]

Ok but we also know that demagogue doesn't work with death mod

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[feral snow]

Hystrex this is what spec and spoilers sounds like but like with probably real characters

[versed junco]

Spec and spoilers has yet to discover Demagogue and Beguiler

And I'm no snitch

[shrewd cloud]

Watch the artwork just be a slightly smaller assassin knife

[feral snow]

Butter knife

[barren zenith]

Demagogue (minion): Players you nominate die that night. Each night: choose if you are drunk or not.

[stable latch]

What have I started

I have made a custscript meme

Beguiler/Demagogue hits so hard

[sour harness]

And it's hilarious

[sour harness]

this is a death mod minion tho

[fast anchor]

I don't think it not working with deathmod is canon

because the point is that it can replace Assassin on China Shop

in order for it to work with the meme it has to work with deathmod

[sour harness]

We can make this work

It doesn't work with yaggababble

Wait no

It does work with yagga, but it doesn't work with typical death mod because it throws off the kill count in some fundamental way

It's also "a little loud"

[fast anchor]

the audacious assassin:

[sour harness]

Wait demagogue sucks on cc apparently

My bad

[fast anchor]

probably because of the slightly loud thing

we don't know anything about the Beguiler, do we

it's just the name?

[acoustic chasm]

by a little loud I'd even count godfather or assassin as that

It's not silent in the way spy or boffin is

[fast anchor]

maybe Beguiler can be silent

[acoustic chasm]

perhaps

I'm just rereading the rules and then I'll be studying haha

[fast anchor]

Close enough, welcome back HBL Chupacabra

[sour harness]

Beguiler is a really good swap for assassin on BSN and almost a strict upgrade from assassin on CS

So it's in that design space

[acoustic chasm]

oh of course

Beguiler (Minion) Once per game*, at night, give the Demon another Demon ability until dusk.

[sour harness]

Hmmm I like it

But it's worse on CS

[acoustic chasm]

It is!

[fast anchor]

You can just be wrong hystrex

[sour harness]

Nah just make it barista double the demon for a night

It works

Beguiler (Minion): Once per game, at night*, choose that a Demon's ability works twice until dusk & learns this.

Very powerful with vigor, doubles the yagga kills, LoT just kills twice

Meanwhile on BSN it's largely just +1 kill

[acoustic chasm]

well pukka is interesting

you wanted more droison

[sour harness]

Yeah

I mean the droison doesn't make a difference most of the time

It's really just with fool

[fast anchor]

double vigor poison into two corpses 🔥 🔥

[honest tide]

Demagogue: Once per game, at night, choose a good player. That player gets a wish
until dusk. The wish will have a cost that will benefit their opposing team. If they don’t use the wish something bad might happen.

There’s probably a better way to word that

[iron scarab]

beguiler (minion): once per game, at night*, choose a player, they die.

i seem to have misunderstood the question

[honest tide]

Beguiler: On your first night, choose a good player. If they are mad about a false statement (they learn it) they turn evil N3.

[coarse fern]

Beguiler (minion): you can only nominate once. When you do, if your nominee is not the demon, they die

[ivory ridge]

how do you even manage to be weaker than assassin 😭

[honest tide]

You literally give a good player a wish

[ivory ridge]

right but that's so

defective

[honest tide]

I mean isn’t that the point

Also that said I imagine it’s like a monkey’s paw ability. Don’t know how it plays in practice

[supple dirge]

Demagogue: Once per game choose a player. They die tomorrow day.

Put it with Golem, witch, slayer on the script

[honest tide]

And yag

[coarse fern]

You can bluff golem 💯

[sharp violet]

Beguiler: Once per game, choose a player: until dusk, they are poisoned and might register as evil and as a Minion or Demon.

If the reason the Assassin is so strong is because it can kill, logically its replacements should be unable to

[tidal quiver]

Beguiler (Minion): Once per game*, you may choose to kill all drunk or poisoned players. (I don't care about what's been spoiled about these or anything I just decided to make a homebrew character)

[alpine silo]

the speculated beguiler is ||entirely made up|| and the demagogue is ||also entirely made up, which is kinda cool||

[cloud plover]

Demagogue: (Minion)
Each night, choose a player. If they are nominated by a good player the following day, they (not the nominator) are executed immediately.

Demagogue: (Minion)
Players that do not nominate might die in the night.

Demagogue: (Minion)
Each night*, choose a player. For the rest of the game, they must vote "yes" on all nominations if they are alive.

Demagogue: (Minion)
If you nominate an outsider, they are executed immediately.

Beguiler: (Minion)
Each night, choose a player. They learn this. When the game ends, your most recently chosen player registers as evil.

Beguiler: (Minion)
You start knowing one out of play role.

Beguiler: (Minion)
You are immune to execution. Each night*, you may kill yourself.

Beguiler: (Minion)
On your first night, choose a player. If your chosen player ever dies, choose another. If you die, all chosen players die the following night.

[lucid crag]

ed edd and eddy neighborhood plays botc and eddy gets voted as the saint day 1

nope, but if I was good, yes, instantly

[lost thistle]

you’re the marionette 💀

[hollow oasis]

0.57142857142:

Determine if Nerdguy would approve of the Legion/||Demagogue|| or the Legion/||Beguiler|| script implications

[fast anchor]

can we stop with this joke 💀

they're both minions anyway so they don't interact unless through alch 😭😭

[hollow oasis]

I mean like if it’s like legion ET or legion witch

One sucks

Other doesn’t

[sour harness]

[vati doesn't exist within time]: what do y'all think about flesh and bone?

[pure meadow]

Its interesting but I really need to see it in action before I make my judgements

[hollow oasis]

5 straight games as evil

4 games won

It’s just proof TB isn’t balanced around the demon reading good.

I need to play BMR again to get it in my “top 3 scripts played”

Homebrew Just overtook it by one because of flesh and bone

Anyways

It’s wayyy too slow

It was essentially just TB but it kept getting worse(until we executed the poisoner)

[fast anchor]

As someone who just played my first (longtext) game of F&B it's fun! There are better starting scripts than others (BMR is atrocious) but it's a fun take on BotC Legacy

[hollow oasis]

I started on TB

uh

Probably should start on SNV

Imo

TB just kinda degrades into worse TB

BMR breaks in half

[honest tide]

I feel like snv is almost certainly the best script to start with

At least in the b3

[hollow oasis]

SNV makes clock balanced by people not wanting to execute it for the fear of losing it

[honest tide]

And even it has issues depending on what gets executed

[hollow oasis]

If SNV loses pithag it’s lights out

[honest tide]

I feel like if you lose pithag game one it should be replaced with wizard

Because that’s how bad it is for evil

[hollow oasis]

This is true

[honest tide]

You need to break the entire game

[hollow oasis]

If wizard gets deleted

Add mez

Or literally poisoner

[honest tide]

I feel there’s almost certainly a custom script that is more like TB which would be better to start F&B with that doesn’t include some of the more breaking parts (spy, virgin, undertaker, ww). Because there’s a lot of interlocking parts of TB that are needed to make it the GOAT

It’s really just spy and the stuff surrounding spy in TB that makes it hard with the F&B format

Well baron too but barons usually don’t survive that long so that’s probably fine

I might try to make one actually. Seems like a good challenge

[hollow oasis]

TB is actually balanced around poisoner

Without poisoner it’s kinda just spy sink

Which isn’t gonna be that common (your ST isn’t insane)

[honest tide]

That too

But after the first TB game you can add misinfo demons to help with that if you need to

Cause you go up to 4 demons

[hollow oasis]

Our ST used a thing that replaced eliminated roles with similar roles

This caused Empath to become cult leader

Which of course, Is my favorite TF

At this point

Ngl

[fast anchor]

Boozling is honestly where I'd start, I think they also did that on stream?

It's a custom that's decently varied, has a lot going on, isn't going to break easily

[hollow oasis]

can you pull up boozling

[fast anchor]

custom script discussion doesn't play customs exhibit R

[hollow oasis]

Axo

I play customs that are either MHD-likes, GoS-likes, or SNV-likes

BMR-likes are just BMR with Lleech (Bad)

[fast anchor]

skill issue

[hollow oasis]

… how?

God forbid a BOTC player have preferences

most customs are TB-likes tho, so you might be spitting a few facts.

[lean isle]

It's very interesting

[honest tide]

This is what i threw together in a few minutes. I think it's ok (could probably use work tho)

[ivory ridge]

flesh and bone just seems

kinda mid

i'm afraid

like here's the thing, if I want to run a dozen of script to torture my player in the name of experimental

[honest tide]

This one's pretty good but idk what you do if the damsel gets executed and the huntsman doesn't but besides that (and the 5 outsider 3 demon thing) this script is great for F&B

[ivory ridge]

i'll just run the wc scripts

.

[hollow oasis]

I also threw together a thing

[next marlin]

There's a jinx for it

[honest tide]

Yeah still don’t really know what to do with choirboy or huntsman if their dependencies get eliminated but this looks pretty good

Oh

What is it

Just generic character them?

[next marlin]

I love that this is the second goddamn time a botcu custom ended up having the same name as something far more famous

[next marlin]

https://fleshandbone.app/rules.php

[honest tide]

I couldn’t find it in the rules page

[honest tide]

Oh

[next marlin]

also

[honest tide]

I’m blind

My b

I’d rather play huntsman with no damsel than huntsman with damsel in this rule set

[hollow oasis]

Well yes, because heretic isn’t there

Of course you’d want to not be a huntsman

[honest tide]

Why do people always bring up heretic whenever huntsman comes up?

Like I don’t get it

Two wrongs don’t make a right

[next marlin]

Because there's a specspoilers take that it needs it to be balanced, which is wrong but a misinterpretation of a correct take (that it's the only environment for +1)

[ivory ridge]

LMAO

[next marlin]

(they're assumed to share a homescript and this is why it's not explicitly formalized as +0)

[ivory ridge]

holy shit this is so funny

[honest tide]

Also riot being the biggest executioner in the game is a cool flavor thing

Just eliminates so many roles at once

[hollow oasis]

Oh I just say it because normal huntsman is boring AF

Heretic Huntsman makes the Possibility of +1 outsider for huntsman a TF ability and also can reverse a damsel wincon into having a damsel less scared of outing

Huntsman’s “YSK the damsel is good and in play” just

Isn’t that good

It also just straight up is an outsider in base 0

[honest tide]

I mean it makes it stronger but not really that much more interesting to play lmao

With regards to heretic stuff

[hollow oasis]

Huntsman with heretic gives at least a noticeable effect on the game if you miss

[ivory ridge]

me when im incentivized to miss

[hollow oasis]

And it makes it less likely to miss, because damsels are slightly more comfortable with outing

[ivory ridge]

how creative

[hollow oasis]

Mizu I’m not saying it’s better to miss

Anyways patters huntsman is objectively better

[honest tide]

idk I feel like I would rather just play with neither most of the time but maybe it’s slightly better for huntsman if you have both

[honest tide]

Def true

[hollow oasis]

Heretic….. doesn’t have script support yet

I don’t think a viable heretic script can feasibly be made yet.

[honest tide]

I’d straight up rather play with damsel no huntsman as I have with many a script

Because damsel is actually well made

And huntsman isn’t

[hollow oasis]

Huntsman’s core idea is “-1 Outsider”

or

“Outsider count being arbitrary is helpful actually”

Patters Huntsman falls into the first category, heretic falls into the second

[honest tide]

yeah neither of those are pulled off in a compelling way to me even with patters rule it’s still only ok

But base huntsman is so shit

[hollow oasis]

I do think huntsman should learn the demon if they choose the damsel

[hollow oasis]

Combine both

“Damsel science”

[honest tide]

wdym

[hollow oasis]

One of the other added benefits of huntsman is the ability for a huntsman to just

Claim damsel

[hollow oasis]

Patters huntsman droisoning moment

[honest tide]

I don’t really want to talk about patters huntsman because I have yet to see it be actually run

[hollow oasis]

I’ve seen it run

[honest tide]

It’s a lot better from a design perspective but it’s not the character that’s out

[hollow oasis]

It works unless the damsel is too good at hiding.

which always happens to be me.

[fast anchor]

I'm so mad

(im not)

Now I know how Kenoboi feels at least

[pseudo fulcrum]

I'm part of spec and spoilers and I don't understand why people are always talking about how Huntsman needs Heretic

although I have a feeling that "people" might not be a group but just one very loud person (cough cough Nerdguy cough cough)

[feral snow]

The two do work quite well together

Huntsman hides the Heretic and Heretic makes Damsels more comfortable outing because the evil team can’t risk a Heretic

[pseudo fulcrum]

Fun fact: Huntsman was originally Each night, but then changed to Once per game, meaning that it was proven through lots of playtesting that Each night Huntsman was too strong

[next marlin]

It's also Squall

[feral snow]

Nerdguy told me about it but like I really do see the vision

Enough that I commented on it in the blog

It makes actually adding an Outsider not suck

[pseudo fulcrum]

Maybe I just don't play roleplaying games enough, but I really don't get the point of Flesh and Bone. Like, a direct quote from the website is "Imagine your group growing attached to certain roles over the course of a few games, only to lose a beloved (or dreaded!) character forever due to a well-timed execution." but I can't ever imagine getting attached to a role in a way where I feel bad for executing them. I don't care what role you are, you're the best execution and I'm playing to win. The website also says "Living Scripts adds stakes to every execution in your games and creates an evolving narrative that reflects your group’s decisions, strategies, and luck." but I just can't see what kind of 'evolving narrative' could be created or what it adds to the game. Also, adding 'stakes to every execution' isn't really any more true than it normally is, since no one wins or loses at the end of a campaign and there's no real goal, the only strategy behind choosing which characters to eliminate and which to keep around is to keep the ones which hold the script together to make sure you're still playing a decent script. Which leads nicely into my next issue, I feel like most of the time you're just going to end up playing really bad and unbalanced scripts. Sure, maybe it's fun to play an unbalanced script one or two times, but here, you're stuck with a bad script until you execute the right characters (which you might have to purposefully play badly in the game to do). Personally, I'd just rather play a decent game of clocktower with a decent script than some Frankenstein's Monster of a script that my group might have created. Which also links into my next point, Flesh and Bone is said to solve the question "What script should we play?" but honestly, I don't see this question asked that often and I think there are just better ways of randomly deciding a decent script.

tl;dr

• I can't see how you'd get attached to characters
• I can't see what kind of 'evolving narrative' would be created
• There's no actual strategy to eliminating characters since there's no end goal
• It'll just make really unbalanced and unfun scripts
• "What script should we play?" isn't a particularly common question and already has other solutions

[karmic slate]

Yeah. I think it's a novel concept you might do every now and then but I dont think it's gamechanging

[acoustic chasm]

I kinda agree. I don't get the narrative, and it does seem like it will go on for a while. Having "generic Townsfolk/Outsiders/Minions" which all scripts kinda turn into after a while is also a bit eh

[pseudo fulcrum]

it's a cool idea I just feel like it's execution (no pun intended) is a bit meh

[acoustic chasm]

I'm more interested in seeing which characters are considered similar to others by the community rather than playing "TB which turns into strings pulling"

But... its nice they're trying stuff out

[pseudo fulcrum]

It's a problem I have with a lot of games actually and one which turns me away from a lot of sandbox games, if there's no end goal, I'm very likely to stop playing because there's nothing to work towards and no strategy about how to get there

[feral snow]

I think it’s a cool concept and something people have been asking for and working for for a surprisingly long time. I just don’t particularly care for it. I’d rather just play good scripts than see what happens

[pseudo fulcrum]

This is kinda another problem I have, you can't really play it "every now and then" because I feel like the first 3 games will just feel like weird versions of the starting script. To have any real sense of progression, you need to play it a lot, which, as I said earlier, likely means you'll be playing bad scripts a lot.

There's no such thing as 'playing one game of a Flesh and Bone script' because either you're just playing a normal game of clocktower, or you're playing a normal game of clocktower with a weird script.

[acoustic chasm]

I think the end goal, intentionally or not, is that you're gonna end up with scripts with "generic Townsfolk/Outsider/Minion"

Which doesn't feel compelling?

I do think some characters will have a new light shone on them in this format

[next marlin]

Oh yeah the generic roles are super weird

[acoustic chasm]

I think Undertaker will stick around and be loved because it knows what gets eliminated before anyone else

Generic Townsfolk is worse NWM

Generic Outsider is Tinker and drunk on steroids

Generic Minion is a worse poisoner, but having 2 of them in game at once feels a bit... silly

[spiral pollen]

I think it also puts too much emphasis on surviving which isn't the point of clocktower

Which warps the incentive structure

What's the point of generic stuff?

[pseudo fulcrum]

filler I think

[spiral pollen]

Why do you need filler

[pseudo fulcrum]

In case you run out of characters of a certain type

[spiral pollen]

Oh got it

Yeah

Spirit of Ivory is added when there is more than 2 sources of players turning evil/changing alignment

Yeah this alone kind of indicates the problems

SOI doesn't automatically make it playable

[feral snow]

It’s probably the best automatic fix for it (though a good ST would probably just veto it)

[honest tide]

So I will say that F&B really feels more like a living board game rather than a role playing game. I’m thinking of it similar to a board game called Oath (a living game that is essentially about the rising or falling of the different factions you can play as). As for the getting attached to characters thing (as well as the narrative concerns) this might just not be your cup of tea. The first thing I thought of in regards to this was a scenario where one of the minions from the base script survives much longer than any of the others and I think there’s suspense in seeing how long that can happen.
The unbalanced script thing I actually have a hot take on. I think we should play more unbalanced scripts. I think it gives a fun dynamic to try to win against the odds and especially if you aren’t playing the same unbalanced script over and over again I think each experience will be different and likely something you wouldn’t experience if only one person was building a script organically.
I agree that some of the claims they have are a little… well wrong. I don’t think I’d ever bring out a F&B game outside of the normal group I’d run it in for example but I think there’s real potential for this to be pretty cool. Again it’s not for everyone or every group but for those who like this type of long time frame shifting of the game and storylines (even if they are a little abstract) it’ll be fun.

[tacit fiber]

re the unbalanced script point: I don’t agree, sure it feels fun to win against the odds but also most of the time the unbalanced team does the unbalanced thing and the game kinda stops being fun (this is esp bad if the evil team does it because it usually devolves the game into werewolf)

I can def feel unwinnable at times which isn’t a good feeling to have when playing clocktower

[cyan reef]

in terms of unbalanced, fwiw, Flesh and Bone surprisingly has a pretty competitive winrate for each team, favoring good just a bit, which I think is quite typical of customs anyway

[acoustic chasm]

How long has it been in the works?

I didn't know how much it was tested to get this data

[cyan reef]

I'm not 100%, I was in the beta testing space (though was not able to actually run anything for time reasons unfortunately) a couple of months ago and by that point Nash's original TB campaign that was 28 games long was already completed, with others running their own campaigns

when I first looked at the project, the winrate was almost exactly 50/50...it has since started favoring good a bit more, but even recently has come back down to be a little bit closer

actually, you can look at that campaign on the site and I can see that the first game was submitted in late January

[spiral pollen]

that makes sense but it doesn't say anything about how balanced each individual script is

just saying

the variance could be incredibly high but still average out to 50/50

[cyan reef]

sure, that's almost kind of the point...it's an idea that's mainly focused on the "journey" and that's all part of it

[cyan reef]

overall I think something I'd add, and this is just my two cents of course, is that I'm of the opinion that even if this kind of project isn't exactly your kind of thing (and I totally don't blame anyone for that, especially as someone who craves more well-tested balanced-ish custom scripts), I think it's the kind of thing that is going to be really great for the health of the game in the long term

this presuming that we get other projects eventually that have as much thought and quality put into it

[acoustic chasm]

10/04/25 - Which characters are whimsical?

[tidal quiver]

all of them if you personally are whimsical enough

but a list of some whimsy characters IMO: king, choirboy, amne, general, magician, tea lady, butler, zealot, baron, summoner, alhad, vigor

idk these are just the ones whose vibes I like

[pure meadow]

Your job is literally to spread joy and whimsy

[tidal quiver]

oh forgot about travs

yeah like most travs are whimsy incarnate

thief/bureaucrat my beloved

[sour harness]

[ivory ridge]

@feral snow which character do you hate?

[pure meadow]

gardener and harpy??

[feral snow]

Gardener

[sour harness]

Those are some of the most whimsical ones

[pure meadow]

I really just don't get gardener

Harpy I can somewhat understand

[ivory ridge]

Gardener

[sour harness]

"waffles is gonna be the mutant bc that's funny"

[ivory ridge]

the only whimsical character

[pure meadow]

Yes you can use gardener in whimsical ways but it doesn't feel inherently whimsical to me like other characters do

Kinda just a vibes thing that gardener doesn't pass

[acoustic chasm]

Steward is whimsical

"I did my thing let's muck around"

[sour harness]

Blank tokens aren't whimsical I'm sorry

[acoustic chasm]

It's not a blank token

[fast anchor]

You put Zealot down

[tidal quiver]

yeah and zealot is quite whimsical

ngl Autumn you might have made the most controversial question I've ever seen

because I will fight to the death on every single one of my takes

because vibes

[ivory ridge]

actually

[acoustic chasm]

I try ❤️

[ivory ridge]

lemme think of actual whimsical char

[pure meadow]

I was thinking steward whimsical but more because you just get a friend who's probably on the same team as you
Kinda the same type of whimsy of ogre imo

[acoustic chasm]

Yee

[feral snow]

Every character is whimsical if mizu can think of a bad thing you can do with it

[ivory ridge]

i think i have the most fun and whimsy in this chat so time to try 🔥

[tidal quiver]

not sure if I'd call slayer, FG, or virgin whimsy but I agree with like all of these

[acoustic chasm]

Gossip feels whimsical

[ivory ridge]

ur whimsical when you are indecisive (squall seeing grey area impossible challenge)

[tidal quiver]

stormcatcher and ferryman are also like max whimsy

[acoustic chasm]

I personally don't think Shugsnja/Professor is that whimsical

[pure meadow]

I agree that ferryman has some whimsy to it but maximum whimsy???

[acoustic chasm]

We now need to make a whimsy script

[tidal quiver]

actually Autumn this question might be not controversial at all because it's like asking "what's your favorite color" and then getting mad at anyone who doesn't say purple (purple gang unite)

[tidal quiver]

Charon is just a silly little guy

just ridin in his boat

[pure meadow]

Wait are we talking about whimsical flavor or whimsical abilities???

[tidal quiver]

I was thinking both

[acoustic chasm]

Unrelated, but Baron is a silly lil guy

Assassin is anti-whimsy

[sour harness]

True!! Not whimsical tho

[tidal quiver]

purely mech, I get why ferryman isn't super whimsy

[pure meadow]

Because ability wise its just a small bit whimsical but I do agree flavor wise very whimsical

[acoustic chasm]

Like Assassin is like definitely NOT whimsical

In every way

[tidal quiver]

chat what does whimsy mean if not "gives good joyous silly vibes" because that's what I thought the conception of whimsy means

[pure meadow]

Goon itself isn't whimsical, but its very easy to feel whimsy when playing goon

[acoustic chasm]

Yee

[tidal quiver]

you put this so well

[pure meadow]

I don't know if whimsy has a precise definition so I'm fully going off of vibes

[tidal quiver]

ok it's not whimsy usually but assassin can be a little whimsy when it's completely loud and the concept of loud assassin is strangely amusing to me

[tidal quiver]

great

[pure meadow]

Genuinly the most whimsy I feel when playing botc is when I'm goon and I'm role playing as it

[acoustic chasm]

Flowergirl and town Crier aren't whimsical

No Dashii is imo

[tidal quiver]

accounting is rather anti-whimsy

[acoustic chasm]

Peak whimsy sounds like peak everyone can do their own thing and it'll all work out in the end

On a script

[tidal quiver]

fr

TT

[pure meadow]

I feel like I have some bias against demons being whimsical? Like they need to reach a much higher bar of whimsy as they are literally killing people and ending other people's whimsy

[tidal quiver]

yeah but I think that's okay

[acoustic chasm]

Sure

[tidal quiver]

this conversation is the most invested I've been in botc in days

[acoustic chasm]

Lleech is probably the most whimsical

[pure meadow]

Like I consider yagga whimsical (Even if its my least favorite character in the game) but not many other demons

[tidal quiver]

I'm in the alhad camp personally

[acoustic chasm]

Outed Demon is funny

[pure meadow]

Oh yeah lleech is also good

[ivory ridge]

omg i'm gonna have such a controversial take

btw random tangent but

[pure meadow]

I don't know how controversial you can really get in a conversation about whimsy but slay

[ivory ridge]

vizier is absolutely whimsy if not for the fact that it fucking suck

[acoustic chasm]

But I'd argue Leviathan isn't whimsical

I fully agree

I thought of it

But ye it is complete whimsy

[feral snow]

YESSSSS

[acoustic chasm]

I think whimsy also has an honesty to it

Which Evil Twin, Lleech, Vizier has

It's even funnier when it's flipped on its head though

Like an alchemist goblin insisting they're the alchemist

[pure meadow]

That's why psychopath is the most whimsical minion

[tidal quiver]

ok but like a lot of the minions are whimsy, this might be a hotter take

[acoustic chasm]

Whimsy feels like joy, shenanigans, and honesty

[ivory ridge]

wait i need help on one character

is mez whimsy

[tidal quiver]

I like boomdandy, I feel like it never feels unfair

[ivory ridge]

like mez is kinda uber OP and stupid

[acoustic chasm]

Yes for the Mez and the mez turned player

[ivory ridge]

but being able to force a 30 year old man to say skibidi toilet

🥺

[acoustic chasm]

No for anyone else

But yes if you do fake mez words

[pure meadow]

running and playing as it or the turned player is whimsical but I'm not sure how whimsical it is in general

I love fake mez words :3

[tidal quiver]

I like using fake words and boasting my vociferous vocabulary to the plebians

[acoustic chasm]

Fakezepheles is whimsy

[tidal quiver]

also the funniest thing ever is fake mezepheles words which are just sounds put together and not words

I gave "kerflumph" as a mez word once

[pure meadow]

Now I wish I could play mez irl 😭

[tidal quiver]

so real

[fast anchor]

i gave "among us" as a mez word once

[tidal quiver]

just don't be me and audibly say the mez word IRL

I forgot that everyone else was in the room and could hear me tell the mez

my playgroup just had music playing in the background and then I spontaneously say "dunning-kruger"

there was like 5 seconds of me trying to play it off

[acoustic chasm]

Plague Doctor is whimsy if you accept the Storyteller getting a Minion ability is funny

[tidal quiver]

and then I accepted my folly

[tidal quiver]

plague doctor is whimsy on like every script where it's good

[pure meadow]

I think pd is whimsy with most loud minion abilities, but not with most quiet ones

[acoustic chasm]

Chaos hatter is not whimsy but mainly because I don't like chaos hatter

Wizard is peak whimsy

[tidal quiver]

my hot take is that chaos hatter is actually really lame

like we have a character for this, it's called barber

[fast anchor]

omg like folly tmmhhaudfhtftj no way

[pure meadow]

Hmmm... interesting

[tidal quiver]

baron plague doctor jinx is whimsy overload

surprise! you're the recluse now or smth

[tidal quiver]

fr fr

[fast anchor]

surprise! you're the heretic

[acoustic chasm]

Giving the Plague Doctor a widows call is funny

[pure meadow]

thats a loud minion abillty with pd :3

[tidal quiver]

yeah it's very silly

[ivory ridge]

ok i have my list

(might be controversial)

[fast anchor]

"x is executed and dies, good night, oh and i am the vizier"

[ivory ridge]

wait nvm i forgot fabled

and traveller

[tidal quiver]

what do you guys think about vizier but not publicly announced

like you fully out but only once you use it

is that whimsy?

I don't care if it's balanced or anything, but does it still keep the whimsy

[pure meadow]

Vizier isn't whimsy in the first place because its actively bad :3

[tidal quiver]

ok well I'm trying to make it a little better

[fast anchor]

2D grid, fun on one axis and whimsy on another

[pure meadow]

serious answer is less whimsy than regular vizier imo

[fast anchor]

the kids call this a 2D vector space

(they don't)

[tidal quiver]

hm. I kinda think that a surprise d3 vizier is kinda whimsy

like a hidden psychopath

[tacit fiber]

Wizard is whimsical

[tidal quiver]

not just whimsical, it's wiz-ical

ok I'll see myself out

[pure meadow]

I think some of the whimsy of those two is fact you are just outed evil

[tacit fiber]

“Oh I wish everyone was mad that they were a flat earther” “I wieh everyone has to end their sentence with banana” straight whimsy

[ivory ridge]

here is my fun and whimsy list (i think)

[pure meadow]

Why are sami and squall tiers?? I feel like I'm missing something

[tidal quiver]

anyways I'm going away but ping me if anyone thinks that magician is not whimsical and I will force joy and whimsy upon them until they are forced to agree with me

[pure meadow]

Oh yeah marionette is whimsy, but just for me specifically

[ivory ridge]

marionette is so funny because whenever I feels like I'm losing I just start to ask my neighbors "am I your mario"

[ivory ridge]

dw, they're just my irl friends

the last 3 tier is flavor, you can ignore it

[pure meadow]

I lurk in specs and spoilers enough to know that (why do you dox squall so much???) :3

[tidal quiver]

"fun and whimsy (corporate)" is also the name of one of mizu's friends

[ivory ridge]

true 🔥

but yeah i think my most controversial take in whimsy here include evil twin and witch

but like, et and witch are soooo whimsy

[pure meadow]

Witch is whimsy for one of my irl friends but not me, evil twin is definitely a little bit whimsical

[ivory ridge]

hmmm yeah that's valid

i do think that there's a sigh of relief when you see a witch kill in snv because at least it's not cere/ph

but yeah, I also only have 2 outsider as whimsy (mutant is a close one though)

because being outsider kinda suck

[pure meadow]

Is heretic not whimsical for you?

[tidal quiver]

completely 100000% disagree but ok

the only unfun outsiders IMO are tinker and snitch

[pure meadow]

Actually my whimsy vibe for heretic is 100% based on specifically quadjank so if you're not a livetexter that makes sense

[ivory ridge]

only on quadjank

like quadjank make heretic works and that's crazy

[ivory ridge]

ok hear me out

some outsider are not unfun to play

but they are not fun

[tidal quiver]

hm, I still can't think of too many

maybe PD, hatter, and barber are kinda lame

[pure meadow]

The last two times I was heretic on quadjank I got into around three doubleclaims then exed the st which felt very whimsical

[tidal quiver]

but I find them less whimsy than fun

[ivory ridge]

and some are absolutely fun to play, but are not fun for everyone

like poli is absolutely fun but not whimsy

[tidal quiver]

everyone should conglomerate their whimsy opinions and find the objectively most whimsy character

oh yeah, fun != whimsy

[pure meadow]

Poltician feels like the type of character to hate whimsy

[ivory ridge]

philo is weird because it can be like

[tidal quiver]

anyone else get the urge to plot things on a 2d plane of fun and whimsy?

[ivory ridge]

uber broken giga try hard n1 dreamer

but also like, philo barber 🥺

philo golem 🥺

https://tenor.com/view/sadhamstergirl-gif-4231717927828306245

[pure meadow]

philo mutant

[ivory ridge]

yeah yeah

[tidal quiver]

philo damsel

[ivory ridge]

LOL

philo lunatic

i think its also hard for demon to be fun and whimsy because it's very script dependent

[pure meadow]

Wait how does philo drunk work???

[ivory ridge]

like i only have down 5 demons