secret thing

[tidal quiver]

no me too, but I know that if I just say "ONUW is objectively better" everyone will get mad at me because they are 2 very different feeling social deduction games

[coarse fern]

Yeah the 2 games don’t compare

[barren zenith]

Troublemaker is just so broken tho 😭

And there's sooo much confirmation

[tidal quiver]

can't wait until they put savant in ONUW

[next marlin]

SnV should be on every script and also all of the base 3 and also every single other social deduction game

I meant to say savant but that works too

Mental autocorrect gaming

[tidal quiver]

now I'm genuinely considering how you would implement vortox in ONUW

[acoustic chasm]

pff

[tacit fiber]

can you tell me those opinions <3

[tacit fiber]

"if I say that ONUW is objectely better ppl will disagree because they aren't objectively comparable"

[tidal quiver]

yes

[ivory ridge]

least obsessive yellowpilled person

also savant is yellow

please don’t ask me why

that’s actually my unpopular opinion

[next marlin]

Mizu confirmed synaesthete?

[ivory ridge]

no 😭

savant being yellow is like

as simple as sage and oracle being green

[next marlin]

Mizu confirmed synaesthete

[ivory ridge]

ok what color would savant be then

[vale oxide]

blue..

[ivory ridge]

that’s town crier

[next marlin]

Inasmuch as I have synaesthesia associations the colours I see don't, like, exist

They're secret hidden colours

[ivory ridge]

what version of edgar allen is this

[next marlin]

TC is yellow

[ivory ridge]

that’s insane

[next marlin]

well, golden

[ivory ridge]

btw i have the color not from the name

but the icon

actually it’s both

[next marlin]

What colours are the demons

[cold veldt]

mizu what stuff is green

i gotta know, i'm a green clocktower enthusiast

[hollow oasis]

[cold veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/green-goblin-sam-raimi-are-you-in-or-out-spider-man-willem-dafoe-gif-25652002

[hollow oasis]

[coarse fern]

Why?

[hollow oasis]

Hulk reference

[coarse fern]

Makes sense

[hollow oasis]

alternatively, Emerald golem

[coarse fern]

Yeah I see it

[ivory ridge]

fang gu is pink
no dashii is red
vigor is dark blue
vortox is white/light blue

[coarse fern]

I love that you just said the snv demons

[next marlin]

In context that's what I was asking

[hollow oasis]

Fang gu is Orange, No Dashii is Purple, Vigor is White, Vortox is Sky blue

[coarse fern]

I didn’t read the context

🤷‍♂️

[fleet hedge]

Well now we need to know 🫠

[sour harness]

Fang Gu is red
Vigormortis is red
No Dashii is red
Vortox is red

[next marlin]

synaesthesia-let

[vale oxide]

Every townsfolk is blue, every outsider is light blue, every minion is orange and every demon is red 😭

Idk how you see it any other way

[lost thistle]

The Occultist is light blue, because it needs to be mad that it learned about a new thing each day, but once per game actually learns something

[young sonnet]

Anyone who has played this game for a while and isn't interested in playing homebrew that much is lame & stupid

[stable latch]

DO PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH THIS?

I’m shocked

Actually wait.

Colour Theory 🙂

[stable latch]

Yes, me

[tidal quiver]

y'know what? Here's my hot take: travelers should be purple

and not half red half blue

[stable latch]

Insane

But I see it

[tidal quiver]

purple voudon would look so cool

[pure meadow]

Like I get why they aren't but I hard agree with this

[stable latch]

Some townsfolk are yellow

Unpopular opinion

[coarse fern]

All townsfolk should be the same color

[stable latch]

They should be but

Colour Theory 🙂

[stable latch]

I felt pain reading this 🙁

Fang Gu is Orange and everything else is Hardcore Red

[tidal quiver]

fang gu is minion confirmed! (But FG is totally orange, and I don't even associate any other roles with other colors)

[stable latch]

All Townsfolk are Blue except
Yellow:
Acrobat
Alch
Cannibal
Chambermaid
Choirboy
Courtier
Cult Leader
Engi
Exorcist
Fish
Fool
Grandma
HP
Lycan
Minstrel
Monk
NWM
Professor
Sailor
Savant
Shug
SC
Steward

Green:
Farmer
Flowergirl
Poppy Grower
Sage

Pink:
Artist
Pixie

Red:
Investigator

Some Town Are Yellow.

[tidal quiver]

I can get some of these but green sage just feels off to me. Not yellow/orange?

[pure meadow]

alch yellow???

[tidal quiver]

yellow courtier? What's in that glass??

[hollow oasis]

i imagine a margarita

[tidal quiver]

can't believe the courtier made the DA drink molten gold at least 1,000 degrees celsius (2,000 fahrenheit)

[acoustic chasm]

Not very hot take but scriptbuilders are stricter about +evils than perhaps they should be, especially for characters like ogre & goon.

[hollow oasis]

I think it's PTSD

IMO

[acoustic chasm]

sure

[hollow oasis]

Those scriptbuilders who are strict about that are usually the ones who have played one too many +2 evil unwinnable games

fortunately, I've only played 2

[shrewd cloud]

Flashbacks to a game where the Empath was next to the Outsider the Fang Gu jumped to N2 (there was also an Oracle in play so lol)

But the script had stuff like Mez, BH, Cult Leader, and more which made it so we basically just could not actually vote out the new Fang Gu even though we knew who it was

So frustrating

[hollow oasis]

^ this is traumatizing

[shrewd cloud]

There was also Goon (me) but I never turned so I was stuck with good

[tacit fiber]

the base scripts have no way for +2 evils to happen

that's intentional

the numbers just like don't work so often

[hollow oasis]

+2 evils doesn't work at

7p,8p,10p

[tardy wyvern]

the problem with extra evils is mitigated if the extra evils don't have a reliable way of finding out who the actual evil team is (like cult leader or goon)

[hollow oasis]

8 and 10 are very common

[tardy wyvern]

but +2 extra evils is still invariably not great imo

[tacit fiber]

+2 on 9p,11p,13p don't work or like work very difficultly

[acoustic chasm]

Or if they can turn back

Or are unreliable

[hollow oasis]

they don't need the bomb

[tardy wyvern]

also bh

[hollow oasis]

that's the threshold

[tacit fiber]

so like nerdguy

when good misses one (1) execution

[ivory ridge]

me when i’m confidently wrong

[tacit fiber]

they start needing dead votes or evil cooperation

[hollow oasis]

again, it's technically winnable

[acoustic chasm]

I've mentioned it before but also

[hollow oasis]

doesn't mean you should though

it still sucks

The rule of the Bomb:

[stable latch]

I said Alchemist was yellow I get no say

[tacit fiber]

that's still unfun

[acoustic chasm]

Ojo is just a weak character. But them unintentionally missing and the STs giving them a similar kill misses the point of the Ojo

[ivory ridge]

alchemist is weirdly blue to me

[tidal quiver]

actually here's my hot take: Both STs and players treat politician wrong. The politician needs to be the most responsible, and I feel like a politician who just blends in / acts like a mutant until they claim 1 piece of info aren't actually the most responsible, but a ST would give it to them anyways. I think a poli needs to be guiding a decent portion of the town's discourse/executions. I think a lot of the fun of the politician is that you need to point fingers very aggressively and be a major source of info, and the reward is that you'll win no matter who you accuse

[hollow oasis]

If dropping The Bomb from New World Chaos can win you the game on your script, that aint great, the exception is legion.

[pure meadow]

I love how new world chaos itself breaks this rule in certain setups with both Kabal and sympathizer

[hollow oasis]

NWC is an exception because the bomb is on its homescript

and the bomb isn't official

It should be

"If 2 players agree to drop the bomb, and at least one is good, good loses. If good cannot win otherwise, whoever wins loses and whoever loses wins."

bam

[pure meadow]

I don’t know how much I like a fabled that encourages scripts where there can be more or equal evils than goods, but I do think it works well with the rest of nwc

[hollow oasis]

I like the bomb, normally but not as much

[acoustic chasm]

Madness is about putting on a show for the Storyteller.

[hollow oasis]

I think we need a fabled like the bomb for customs

[pure meadow]

I also like the bomb? Just in the context of nwc

[tidal quiver]

I spent a really long time trying to make a mez who can turn any number of people for the djinn contest, and it just turned out that evil majority only really works when most players start evil and as the demon (the idea that players spread the word as much as possible, but if the demon says it something bad happens or something like that)

[primal crescent]

[2nd march]

[shrewd cloud]

Heretic would be disguised as a normal Pawn and would invert the win conditions. So the opponent who looks like they’re throwing might actually be really big brain

[primal crescent]

*or even would they have any other effects

leviathan wouldn't be able to move it'd just win after 10 moves each

[shrewd cloud]

Riot turns all Pawns into Queens after 5 turns

[primal crescent]

well that's fucking terrifying

[shrewd cloud]

Scarier than actual Riot sadge

[primal crescent]

https://tenor.com/view/waah-waa-sad-wah-waaah-gif-25875771

butler moves 1 step in any direction but only if a piece orthogonally neighbours it

[hollow oasis]

zealot attacks like a pawn,

but explodes on death or on capture, killing all units in a 3x3 radius

yes, killing the zealot next to a king

kills the king

[pure meadow]

I love Atomic chess

[hollow oasis]

Professor: You move like a king. If you capture a piece, once, you place a piece of a equal value.

[supple dirge]

Imp: replaces the king, can sacrifice itself to turn a pawn into the imp

[hollow oasis]

Kazali: You choose what pieces are on your side, equal to 39 points (replaces king)

[tidal quiver]

Athiest: you don't have anyone else to play against

[sharp violet]

Steward: can move (and attack) 2 spaces in any direction, but can only move to a space adjacent to another allied piece

[hollow oasis]

Legion: you have 32 pawns. if all die, you lose. (no king)

Chef: After turn 5, you may move in any direction the amount spaces rounded up= your longest line of pawns

Empath: you may move one space forward, or capture the piece of a neighbor and move again.

[primal crescent]

Fool: moves 2 step orthogonally and attacks 1 step diagonally. The first time it's captured, it isn't & the attack moves next to it.

[hollow oasis]

Fortune Teller: You can move one space cardinally. Anything near in a 3x3 radius from you dies, except kings. One of the Opponent's pieces registers as a King.

Investigator: you may move like a king. If you can kill a minor piece in 2 moves, you may move twice to do so.

Librarian: Once, choose a pawn: promote them to a minor piece.

Mayor: If your king has been placed in check 3 times, and the Mayor is alive, you win.

Monk: You may move like a Knight. You may choose a piece in 5x5 radius from you, it cannot die.

[tidal quiver]

could golem be a legit chess piece though

[primal crescent]

could it??

it's negative utility lmao

[tidal quiver]

lol

my thought it "if you go next to an enemy piece, it is captured." and the piece can't capture normally or something like that

[hollow oasis]

Ravenskeeper: If you die, pick a piece you own. If the enemy has one, the enemies' piece dies.

[dry sluice]

Amnesiac: You don't know how this piece moves. If you make an illegal move, it is undone (this doesn't use up your turn).

[hollow oasis]

Slayer:Move forward 2 spaces each turn. if you are 2 steps diagonally from a king, you may kill it.(replaces pawn)

Soldier: You cannot die, except by a king.

Undertaker: You can move 2 spaces cardinally. Pieces that die are converted into a point value. when this value reaches 60, and the Undertaker is alive, you win.

[dense moat]

Philosopher: Choose any piece type. It moves as that piece & removes 1 copy of it from the board

OR

Choose any piece type. It becomes that piece, but your other pieces of that type can’t move while the Philosophet is on the board

I like the 2nd better as a core idea

[hollow oasis]

Virgin:You move like a pawn.The first time a Non-pawn/king attacks they die and you live instead.(replaces pawn)

[tidal quiver]

why have we made the world's jankiest Stratego

[hollow oasis]

I now want to play this

[dry sluice]

Wizard: When the game begins, propose how this piece moves. The opponent may then swap your Wizard with either of their Rooks.

[sour harness]

King wouldn't be able to move much but if it was threatened by an opponent who wasn't careful then it'd be pretty common for that to set up for the king's team to win

[dense moat]

High Priestess: You can instead move to be adjacent to the highest point value piece on the board

Grandmother: When the game begins, choose a piece. The Grandmother moves as that piece, but if that piece is captured, the Grandmother is too

Pixie: You may move this piece the exact way you moved your piece last turn

Cerenovus: Choose a piece type & an opponent’s piece. They may only move it as the piece type you chose until your next turn

[hollow oasis]

Washerwoman:You learn a piece and another one. Once, you may change one into the other, and this doesn't end your turn.

[dense moat]

Harpy: Choose an opponents piece and another piece in reach of their capture. If the opponent moves that piece, they must capture the other piece you chose

[hollow oasis]

Drunk: You pick one of your opponent's pieces. If they try to move that piece, you may choose to immediately end their turn before they move it.

[dense moat]

Xaan: You start the game by naming a turn. On that turn, you move your opponent’s pieces for them

[hollow oasis]

Recluse: You count as any piece or value, and can move diagonally one space.

Saint: You have the King's ability.

Baron:Get 2 extra pawns.(One Maximum)

[dense moat]

Choirboy: Start the game by choosing a piece. If that piece is captured, the opponents king is immediately put in check

OR

Choirboy: If your King is in check, this pieces moves to put the opponents King in check for free

Scarlet Woman: If your King would be in checkmate, it is captured and the Scarlet Woman becomes the King

Witch: If you move the Witch, secretly choose a piece. If that piece moves next turn, it is captured

Mastermind: If you’re in checkmate, get 1 more turn. If you get out of checkmate, you win.

[hollow oasis]

Poisoner:You can move like a Queen. Pieces in your range cannot move. You cannot capture.

Organ Grinder:The opponent is blindfolded after the start of the game, until you are captured.

[dense moat]

Tinker: This piece might be captured at any time

[hollow oasis]

Yaggababble: Everytime you say "check", one of the opponent's pieces dies.

[dense moat]

Vizier: This piece can’t be captured or moved. If an opponent’s puts their fingers on a piece, you may force them to move that piece to a place of your choice

[hollow oasis]

the last part is normal chess

that's literally tournament rules

[dense moat]

Fixed

[primal crescent]

no adjusting

[hollow oasis]

Leviathan: You win after turn 50. (replaces king)

[dense moat]

also I don’t play chess and have only ever played casual, so I don’t give a shit about tournament rules

[hollow oasis]

same

Ojo: You cannot see the board, but the opponent must announce the piece they moved. Each turn(without spending a move), choose a piece, it dies. If you guess wrong, the Ojo dies.

[dense moat]

At any rate, idk what you’re talking about, since the post clearly says that you move the piece to a spot of your choice.

/j.

[hollow oasis]

we can all see

-# (edited)

[dense moat]

https://tenor.com/view/йокелемене-men-in-black-light-sunglasses-gif-15516530

[hollow oasis]

Movie Reference(Yaggababble T2): Whenever someone references a movie, one of your opponent's pieces dies.

[dense moat]

Po: You may choose to not move this turn. If you do, the Po moves as a Queen

[dense moat]

During next turn

[young sonnet]

Holy hell this gives me an idea

[primal crescent]

yeah icl this prompt was a trap

bc i've needed ideas for pieces for a game i'm making

💀

[dense moat]

Can’t believe Luis is making Chess 2

[primal crescent]

if it's the same idea, do you want to work on it together?

[dense moat]

why would it be the same idea, especially if you’re doing this for a non BOTC game?

[primal crescent]

(on the off chance that it's the same idea)

[young sonnet]

Is your idea a deckbuilder chess game? A chess-builder, if you will?

[hollow oasis]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1064340/Chess_Evolved_Online/

Steam

Chess Evolved Online

The paragon of tactics is now on Steam. Collect new chess pieces, create custom armies, and play against others in live multiplayer PvP, ranked or practice. 500+ units to collect, including the classics. diverse abilities of melee, ranged, magic, passives, triggers, and more. no unit is 'strictly better' than another - no 'rarity' is consider...

▶ Play video

similar game:

might be helpful

[young sonnet]

That's doing something a little different than what I was thinking, but it's still interesting thank you

[digital drum]

Gave +1 Thanks to @hollow oasis (current: #1023 - 17)

[hollow oasis]

It might give free ideas

It is a cool game

[young sonnet]

I didn't find that while I was looking to see if anyone had done my idea before

[hollow oasis]

archbishop was really fun

[young sonnet]

What's that?

[hollow oasis]

it's niche as hell

Archbishop is a piece in the game

that can move less spaces than a bishop, but can capture adjacent to its movement

[young sonnet]

It's got more reviews than some of the other games I found in my search

[fast anchor]

Has anyone made Bounty Hunter chess piece

it's a shotgun king

[young sonnet]

That gives me a crazy insane idea

[primal crescent]

pretty much lmao

[hollow oasis]

I'd back it

-# if I had money

Luis

The entropy machine

[primal crescent]

yes

[hollow oasis]

it will have more functionality soon

[primal crescent]

H(p,s)

[hollow oasis]

but right now

[primal crescent]

nice

[hollow oasis]

it's

[young sonnet]

Luis make a thread on APoC

Let's go talk about it

[hollow oasis]

only evil/good alignment

[primal crescent]

hell yeah

[hollow oasis]

(I'll get TF/not TF soon)

(bugs are everywhere)

I FIXED IT

TF/Not TF done

seriously, send me homebrew

the more functions this gets, the better it is.

[young sonnet]

What are you working on?

[hollow oasis]

remember that chart about bits of entropy

this does that for homebrew

It does not have enough functions however

[modern plume]

What is this role you're studying and why are you studying entropy with it?

[karmic slate]

Giga-brain: Leave subtle clues throughout the game that imply your role but never actually say it. You're the Chef? Talk about what you're having for dinner tonight! The Empath? Say you're really sorry or happy for someone. The Ogre? Talk about French Onion Soup

-# damn that was a backlog reply lol didn't expect secret thing to move so fast 💀

[tacit fiber]

this is genuinely the strat

[acoustic chasm]

This is just how I play longtext games

[hollow oasis]

Any of them, I just need to have the function for the possibility space

[ivory ridge]

i think giving 3f3 is fine tbh

[modern plume]

What specifically are you wanting to calculate, what are the probabilities that are being analyzed and constructed

[hollow oasis]

Remember the “YSK entropy chart”

[ivory ridge]

i fear non-ysk doesn't work

[hollow oasis]

This is that, but is supposed to work with all binary characters

[hollow oasis]

You can, it’s just more math

[ivory ridge]

wait how do you do ft for example

what's the assumption?

[hollow oasis]

Only cares about demons,

[ivory ridge]

no like im talking pick wise

[tidal quiver]

This is probably already known but it would be cool to compare the FT and SC graphs and see which is better on different days

[acoustic chasm]

Why are we graphing characters?

[lean isle]

Something about calculating entropy

[tidal quiver]

Graphing their "entropy," or how many worlds their info eliminates

I believe the math works that, if their entropy is 1, they halve the number of worlds, equivalent to an artist question of "is half the circle the demon"

[hollow oasis]

Don’t solely use this to balance characters

please

[acoustic chasm]

clearly

[hollow oasis]

Because uh

Misinfo isn’t real

Or O-mod

Or literally anything that messes with the gamestate

[ivory ridge]

wait i still don't understand ft

[acoustic chasm]

I can see it being a route to balance characters, but I think it looks more useful than it is

[ivory ridge]

is the assumption here checking different people every night?

[hollow oasis]

Yes, exactly

[tidal quiver]

I think it still could be useful in a script building context

[hollow oasis]

It’s best for homebrew

[ivory ridge]

also how does this in general scale with role that has continuous info

[acoustic chasm]

Entropy could like work a bit to explain why an idea could be too strong or weak even if it looks balanced

[hollow oasis]

Line of longest tf

[acoustic chasm]

But I think there are way more intuitive ways to get that across

[hollow oasis]

In 7p

Is a 1.58

[ivory ridge]

as of right now i don't know how this would be implement, or how do people even use it 😭

[hollow oasis]

It’s like the only info unit of measurement that exists

[acoustic chasm]

Like saying ideas have a high or low entropy doesn't get across why something is strong or weak

[modern plume]

Entropy is a measure of the 'content' of information, measured in the probabilities of the information having been observed.

[acoustic chasm]

It's a tool

[hollow oasis]

Yes

[ivory ridge]

right but how do you come to a result for character with continious information, since the information will gain entropy over time

[tidal quiver]

Yes, but I think the idea is to explain why homebrew could be unbalanced by comparing it to the entropies of TPI characters

[hollow oasis]

“Average entropy per night”

[tidal quiver]

Use the X coordinate for entropy on each night?

[hollow oasis]

EpN

[modern plume]

What information are measuring specifically for the entropy?

[ivory ridge]

average entropy per night? 😭

[acoustic chasm]

I mean this wasn't intended as a homebrew tool firstly

[ivory ridge]

how do you add the entropy up together?

across multiple night

[hollow oasis]

That’s gonna be such a fucked up equation

[tidal quiver]

Yeah, but I think that it's the most practical use, since it's not all that helpful with TPIs characters IMO

[ivory ridge]

no even for homebrew tool i just, kinda don't get it lowkey

[acoustic chasm]

But secondly, feedback of "its too strong look at this entropy" is not v helpful

[tidal quiver]

Yeah I wouldn't do average entropy per night, I would just have a dimension on the graph dedicated to entropy on n1, n2, etc

[acoustic chasm]

It doesn't say why

It just is

[hollow oasis]

It is a tool

[ivory ridge]

yeah and i have a question, let's say ft is a homebrew, and some people recheck when they get a yes to single out characters

[hollow oasis]

That’s a 3d graph

[ivory ridge]

i feels like that yield different result than always checking those that are unchecked

[hollow oasis]

FT is 3d

(With rechoosing)

[ivory ridge]

graphing player agency is gonna go crazy 🔥

[tidal quiver]

Yeah I think that I'm being swayed toward the opinion that it's not worth the effort to make it, but you pop off

[hollow oasis]

I literally did that with wayfinder

[fast anchor]

Me picking the same two people for 5 nights straight 🔥🔥🔥

[tidal quiver]

Don't tell anyone about the HP graph

[ivory ridge]

i think this is getting to "idk if you can do it"

[ivory ridge]

knight vs steward vs hp entropy chart gonna goes crazy

[ivory ridge]

what is wayfinder 😭

[hollow oasis]

HP has no entropy

[hollow oasis]

Vat dweller MHD truther’s homebrew character

[modern plume]

🤨

[ivory ridge]

"EN, learn a good player. One evil player register as good"

[hollow oasis]

HP is subjective

[ivory ridge]

just give me a skill description 😭

[acoustic chasm]

Some characters like savant and fisherman are difficult

[hollow oasis]

Savant is literally impossible to calculate

[acoustic chasm]

But most can be graphed i guess

No it isn't Nerdguy

Savant is possible

[modern plume]

No, it's not

[hollow oasis]

I say that because you have to graph every single possible savant statement

Combo

[modern plume]

Savant can have 0 entropy or maximum entropy

It depends too much on the statement

[hollow oasis]

The heat death of the universe would happen

[acoustic chasm]

Just look in #1024526953992163390 message

Then calculate the entropy of each statement

And then yes let the heat death of the universe happen

[ivory ridge]

there are only so many english word combination

and chinese

and french and german

but only so many language

[acoustic chasm]

Or just simplify savant to get information that is identical to YSK characters

[ivory ridge]

wait nerdguy comeback here

give me wayfinder's description

[modern plume]

That doesn't work. You can't calculate the 'entropy' of each of those statements because you have no basis for a probability of those statements. What is the probability an ST tells you "A Chef would learn a 1?"

THe problem as well is that the entropy depends on the pairs of statements, not on the statement itself

[acoustic chasm]

fair

[modern plume]

I can give a 0 entropy Savant pair in a game where Vortox is not on the script:
"A Chef would learn a 1"
"A Chef would not learn a 1"

I can give an absurdly high information content Savant pair
"[INSERT ENTIRE GRIM HERE]"
"You are not the Savant"

[hollow oasis]

Ok but seriously savant isn’t calculatable because quantum computers don’t exist yet

[modern plume]

Both of these examples are clearly obvious bad Storytelling and absurd, but they show Savant can't be measured by entropy without some assumptions on what the storyteller gives.

You can hypothetically give a full list, but without further context like prior-probabilities of those statements being given that can then be re-measured against the game state, there isn't probabilities to measure to generate the total entropy

[ivory ridge]

just calculate every possible sentence combination 😭

[modern plume]

With what probabilities?

[tidal quiver]

your computer might calculate it all by the heat death of the universe! better get started now

[hollow oasis]

No it won’t

It’ll just die

[tidal quiver]

just keep in plugged in/charging

[hollow oasis]

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/xizju62egp

[sour harness]

Why on EARTH are they all labelled

[hollow oasis]

Lmao

It looked better not on mobile

[sour harness]

Yeah this feels like a decent spread, if I'm interpreting it right

It's strong tho

Wait actually no I read the ability wrong

[hollow oasis]

Blue is 3 and green is 4

[sour harness]

What do the colors mean

[hollow oasis]

Consult left side

[sour harness]

I get they connect to the numbers

[hollow oasis]

“The TF picked away”

[sour harness]

This is binary

Ohhhh

[hollow oasis]

The amount of spaces away from you the player you picked is

[sour harness]

Yep now it makes sense

Why is 3 so cracked??

[hollow oasis]

Check 2 people?

My theory is weaker invest

[sour harness]

What happens if you choose someone opposite you

[modern plume]

The role forbids that?

[sour harness]

And how cursed is it to say (not 3 away from you)

[lean isle]

Ability says (not opposite you)

[sour harness]

It does, but I'm wondering if it SHOULD

And then I realized

It just fundamentally doesn't work :D

I thought it was for balance reasons, then I thought about it a bit more

[modern plume]

Likely because of the probabilities.

Assuming no extra Evils, in a 12p game, the odds that neither player is Evil between two players (given that you are Good as well and not one of those players) is (9 choose 3)/(11 choose 3), which is around 50.9%

[ivory ridge]

this is a once per game

😭

[sour harness]

Right

[modern plume]

That is as close to maximum entropy you can get with such a role with binary info.

[sour harness]

But I'm wondering why 3 is the max at all player counts

[ivory ridge]

graphing a ysk/opg is not the same as like, anything that isn't frontloaded

[hollow oasis]

Yes

True

I can go calculate FT

[ivory ridge]

do it

[modern plume]

At 2, you're only checking a single player, and the probability they're Evil is not close to 1/2.

[ivory ridge]

not because i want to see result

but because i want suffering

🔥

[hollow oasis]

Mizu Wayfinder was more suffering than a demon finder can be

[modern plume]

At 4, you increase the probability that you find an Evil, which results in it diverging away from that 50/50 check

[ivory ridge]

why is it all unlabeled plot of graph

what does this even mean 😭

[ivory ridge]

remind me in 24 hours

[hollow oasis]

2 is for picking 2 away from you

3 is for 3 away

Etc

[flat lintel]

oo graphs

[modern plume]

That is why Green starts lowest at 0 outsider base games but increase; every additional player increases the odds that all the players in the line are Good, and since the probability is already low, this increases the entropy as it closer approaches the 50/50 chance

[ivory ridge]

is the Y axis player counts

[hollow oasis]

X is Player count

Y is entropy

[ivory ridge]

oh right X axis

[hollow oasis]

And the color key is on the left

[ivory ridge]

I keep referring X and Y wrongly dies

[modern plume]

Listed the reason above why at 4+ it does worse than the 3

[ivory ridge]

wait

isn't this just

no i can't say better steward 😭

[sour harness]

That makes a lot of sense actually

[ivory ridge]

wait is this inclusive?

[sour harness]

Also I just realized it's almost equivalent to n1 empath

[hollow oasis]

no

[ivory ridge]

yeah make sense

that's why they start at 2

so this is like, almost a better steward 🔥

holy shit this graph design is

how the hell do i turn off some color

[hollow oasis]

fine I'll make the unlabeled version

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ywl6lyrsr4

probably easier to read

[fast anchor]

Wait you physically can't pick 3 away in a 7p game

Because it goes by shortest path, it'll just go via the shorter 2 away one

[modern plume]

X 1 2 3 3 2 1

[fast anchor]

Same with an 8p game, because the player 3 away from you is directly opposite you

[modern plume]

In an 8p game, 4 is opposite of you

X 1 2 3 4 3 2 1

[fast anchor]

im off by one 😭 ty quil

[modern plume]

But yeah, that's why one of the Artist questions I recommend for those wanting a good question is to ask if two players of your choice are both Good.

Nearly maximum entropy

[sour harness]

Wait so seamstress really isn't much weaker than artist (ignoring the slight differences between day and night info)

[hollow oasis]

well...

the difference between 0/2 evils and 1

[modern plume]

(Actually wait, let me double check that calculation)

[sour harness]

I mean empath is like 48/48/4 ish

[modern plume]

Seamstress is not always a 50/50. It asks if both players are the same alignment. The probability is not always 50/50.

In a 12p game with you as Good Seamstress, the odds of
Both Good: (9 choose 3)/(11 choose 3) = 28/55
Both Evil: (9 choose 1)/(11 choose 3) = 3/55

being checked to give the Yes is 31/55, or 56%. That little nudge is enough to push it away from 50%.

At 10p though, you get
Both Good: (7 choose 3)/(9 choose 3) = 5/12
Both Evil: (7 choose 1)/(9 choose 3) = 1/12

which is exactly 6/12 or 50%. Seamstress is actually maximally as powerful (entropy-wise) as it can get in a 10p game amusingly.

But yeah, interestingly on 10 players, Artist can't do better than Seamstress in informational power (relative to entropy)

[young sonnet]

This assumes so many things
Like, even if you can only tell when someone is lying 50% of the time, when you know they're lying you can thus derive info from that
And when someone changes their hardclaim, there's good and evil reasons to do that you can interpret and use to help solve the game
Like that argument kinda just feels like you're saying no information outside of your own is useful
Like a lot of times people lie about their role but not the information they believe, so they'll still point at their evil candidates but with different justifications

[ivory ridge]

I feels like the more hard claim meta develop, the more people are willing to lie for no reason in a hard claim

[tacit fiber]

“for no reason”

there’s always a reason

[ivory ridge]

no because people has a reason to lie to you

hard claim will devolved into no reason

idk how to explain it 😭

[gusty bear]

i think the only time where i lie to people is when i'm roleswapped or a bait role

[young sonnet]

Yeah maybe if your players are bad and/or trolls

But like

[ivory ridge]

can you not

[young sonnet]

I've never experienced people just lying for no reason (beyond like the first 10 games)

[ivory ridge]

people lie because i want an objective

if hard claim cause people to meta the lie over the objective

people will pivot into more arbitrary claim

[young sonnet]

No? You just go one step further down the bluff chain lmao

[ivory ridge]

you don't solve a bluff chain

because you don't know if they are one or two step down

[young sonnet]

And then you alternate between the 2-4 steps along the chain depending on where your group meta is at

[ivory ridge]

that's a lot of possibility

i dislike the fact that you tell me that these people are trolling

while also claiming that you can perfectly read them

[young sonnet]

????

[ivory ridge]

if you can, why care for claiming

[young sonnet]

I'm not saying that

In fact I'm the guy who argues you can never rely on socials with any good group

[ivory ridge]

you ping me and say "yeah if people are bad or troll"

[young sonnet]

Yeah cause you said "people will lie for no reason"

[ivory ridge]

and then i say "people might move to arbitrary/random claim to hide their objective"

[young sonnet]

Like there should always be a reason if they're actually trying to win

[ivory ridge]

then you said "just read them"

[hollow oasis]

People lie for no reason from the perspective of the person being lied to

[young sonnet]

Where did I say just read them lmfao

[young sonnet]

No??

[ivory ridge]

.

[ivory ridge]

.

[young sonnet]

I'm talking about the person bluffing in both of those sentences lmao

Not the person being lied to

[ivory ridge]

that's not the impression i have

imma be for real

and i think this is not the intention from someone who read it first either

[ivory ridge]

i also specifically say here that it devolved into no reason because they have a reason to lie to you

[hollow oasis]

the reason is arbitrary

[ivory ridge]

and if lying within objective is gonna be meta anyway, (ex: claiming ft as rk)

then well

this is independent of 3f3 vs hc btw, i don't like 3f3 either

(most people who play with me know im a 2f2 person)

[young sonnet]

In long form:
"If you're getting read on your bluffs, you go further down the bluff-chain, you don't just randomly bluff something outside of the bluff chain, you eventually alternate between the 2-4 steps on the bluff-chain (depends on the script) depending on where your group meta is at such that the other players can't read you. If everyone just starts bluffing random shit then yeah claims become useless, which is bad for the good team"

[young sonnet]

Only if you think Rock Paper Scissors is arbitrary

[hollow oasis]

yep

[ivory ridge]

people don't play competitive rock paper scissor as rolling a dice

but bluff at some point can be as good as a die (cuz why not)

[ivory ridge]

it's not that arbitrary

at least not complete arbitrary

people tends to fluctuate choosing between rpp base on last result

[young sonnet]

Then that explains the difference in opinion

[ivory ridge]

i think rpp is a lot difference than claiming though

(due to the amount of role, for example)

and the lack of dichotomy

but anyway 2f2 is goated and i will not hear otherwise 🔥

[hollow oasis]

2f2 works

[young sonnet]

Like, GTO in RPS is just going random because you don't want to be readable
But in Clocktower, because good outnumbers evil & you have limited control over kills, it's better to lean into being readable, but readable on the wrong level.
Like you really want your opponent to read you as rock, so you can go scissors
So like, with a middle tier group for example, if you're a power role you tend to start just hard claiming power roles (so telling the truth) because people will have gotten used to power roles pretending to be bait roles and vice versa, so you're hoping to be read as a bait role

The larger number of options & distribution of players in Clocktower make it not GTO to just go arbitrary on your bluffs

[hollow oasis]

GTO is bad in poker

and like

literally everything

it works when you have no info on the opponent

like say, an online game

[young sonnet]

I see what you think GTO means (by using Poker as a reference), but you're also kinda agreeing with me that because in Clocktower you have info on how other players think you should be playing into that, so I'm not gonna fight you lmao

[modern plume]

That... what?

[young sonnet]

Exactly lmao

[modern plume]

A game theory optimal move is optimal regardless of what the opponent chooses to do, that's what defines it as optimal-

And if it changes in the presence of additional info, then it's not the game theory optimal move anymore.
If it really is GTO, it's irrelevant who your opponent is

[young sonnet]

I think they think it means "optimal before additional info is provided" which I've seen a lot of newer people in the competitive games space think it means

Idk where it came from

Probably because of the overuse of the term "meta"

But yes thank you Quilava lmao

[hollow oasis]

it's optimal overall

[ebon idol]

Yeah this encapsulates it nicely

For me it's about finding the line where:

• I can have fun
• Tricking evil
• Tricking evil in a way that lays foundation for good players to believe I am good

In which doing random claims does only one of those, tricking evil, and even then it's not really a trick it's just boring imo

[ivory ridge]

what type of claim accomplish all 3?

how can you have fun and trick two different group with 1 naturally less easier to trick

[acoustic chasm]

I can think of an example in a TB game I played

I was trying to frame the Ravenkeeper

As evil

But in the middle of like d3 the ravenkeeper was like (after a night of no deaths)

'ohh, everyone's claimed now. Its pretty obvious. I'm the Monk. Yeah I might as well out because evil can figure it out'

And to a couple of players even if it was a lie it was a lie that made him read very good

While also trying to trick evil

[young sonnet]

^^^^^^

Perfect example thanks Autumn

Okay well not perfect cause it's not day 1/day 2, but it's close enough

[ivory ridge]

this is not about 3f3 or hard claim i fear

maybe i’m just being an asshole but doesn’t the nature of it being d3 and no death kinda uh

change the context

like a lot

[stable latch]

I played a game today where I 'slipped up' and outed ravenkeeper and only claimed undertaker to 1 person that i was confirming until final 3 where i outed my role, my info and good won

[ivory ridge]

also evil was not tricked here

😭

(this is not referring to sharkly)

[stable latch]

I was UT that survived till final 3

[ivory ridge]

mb

[stable latch]

oh

lol

sorry

[ivory ridge]

yeah wait lemme read yours

[stable latch]

i 'outed ravenkeeper' day 2

[ivory ridge]

right, the question is is this a consistent or semi consistent behaviour that we can accomplish

[stable latch]

fair enough lol

[ivory ridge]

because “tricking evil and having fun” entirety depends on whether evil is tricked right?

no no sharkly you’re fine

that is a good example

[stable latch]

absolutely yeah

[ivory ridge]

its just the more i read into this i more i realized this is a blank statement

it accomplish the vacuously true vibe

“a good claim is where i can have fun and evil get tricked and good believed me”

“so how do you know that evil get tricked and good believed you until after the fact?”

[stable latch]

I hate it when people hide their important role with another important role cos it hurts good and doesnt change kill descions for evil

[ivory ridge]

right but that apply to you the previous game too smh

for example, what if you accidentally hard claim to the spy and got backstab last second

[stable latch]

no i mean if a fortune teller claims empath to hide their role

[ivory ridge]

or maybe your info have had town on 2 wrong execution and town still lose due to a 50/50 even after ur confirmed good

[stable latch]

that reduces true info and evil is still just as likely to kill you

[ivory ridge]

true, but ut is also a semi important role, esp since in tb you do need to find the minion since imp is broken

wait sorry just to be clear, i don't think what you did is wrong, after all it win you the game

and i can see myself doing that too haha

[stable latch]

not me being new and the alsaahir claiming invest and getting the preacher and farmer executed due to my false info 😭

[ivory ridge]

i've been in that boat before

(as a victim)

[stable latch]

NOOO

[ivory ridge]

the invest claim shugenja pointing toward me

(their other two ping where opposite of shugenja)

(they thought shugenja point to good player)

[stable latch]

thats just unhelpful

[ivory ridge]

it's joever

[next marlin]

Oh I thought this was going to be the butler incident

[ivory ridge]

no 😭

[stable latch]

thats like this, claiming a role to hide your real role that serves the same kill prospect along with spreading misinfo is NEVER good for town

[ivory ridge]

but yeah

maybe what i get from this is that there isn't really a correct way to claim

i think finding the optimal claim, or anything related to optimal claim (3f3, 2f2, hc only)...

will just get outmeta'd

[stable latch]

either claim your true and honest role or hide it by claiming an opposite role

like a shug claiming ft to bait demon kills or an ft claiming sage to get killed

[ivory ridge]

i also have a meta way of doing stuff too 🔥

[stable latch]

*not get killed

[ivory ridge]

but hopefully no one meta me

so what I do is uh

(unless there are conditioned that i feel appropriate to just lie or just tell the truth)

[stable latch]

i get pissed when if i dont claim my real role ive done something wrong

[ivory ridge]

nvm

someone is lurking and im not outing it

🔥

[stable latch]

i was the FT in a role swap with a recluse to survive till late game and a chef got pissed at me postgame cos the invest pings was him and the true recluse and he got executed to hide my role

[ivory ridge]

you didn't get executed d1? crazy

[next marlin]

squall is typing...

[ivory ridge]

ill just type it and then delete it 🔥

[next marlin]

excited to read it (finger hovering over the printscreen key)

[ivory ridge]

ok that's enough time 🔥

[next marlin]

📝

[ivory ridge]

idk who read it but if it's no one it's fine

[ivory ridge]

i also tend to deviate from this, so there's like a 50% chance i do that

[next marlin]

no don't worry, I've got it down, "always hardclaim Snake Charmer"

[ivory ridge]

SO REAL

[next marlin]

I actually do always hardclaim savant d1 to @tranquil nymph following a string of 3 consecutive games where I bluffed savant

[ivory ridge]

😭

[next marlin]

so now she just gets that every game

[ivory ridge]

new vativerse character unlocked

[sour harness]

We unlocked her a while ago

Like how we unlocked skyred as a member of the squallverse a while ago (sorry mizu ur a side character)

[lost thistle]

side characters?
like the character Occultist, who is mad about learning something new each day, but once per game actually learns something?

[sour harness]

TRUE

I love learning new things every day :)

[acoustic chasm]

I can see some reasons why

Like if I'm the Ravenkeeper I might claim soldier instead in case its a demon bluff

and the demon might think I am a stronger character pretending to be a bait role

[feral snow]

do we have a thing? can I do a thing?

[fast anchor]

@feral snow this is from this morning

[feral snow]

oh that's 24 hours ago I'm sending it

[03/Mar/2025] Take an existing character name, modify it slightly, and make a homebrew ability based off that name.

For example: Xaan -> Yaan (Minion): "Townsfolk Y steps away from you yield false info. [Y Outsiders]"

Xaan causes horizontal misinfo, so the Yaan naturally causes vertical misinformation.

[sour harness]

Rambler (Townsfolk): Each night*, if you spoke the most today & weren't mad about anything true, you die.

[hollow oasis]

Zaan(Minion) You start by picking a player, they are poisoned the first night for 10 games.[Z Storytellers]

[sour harness]

Waan (Minion): A player's ability malfunctions the first time they play a new social deduction game, up to W games [W Demons]

[hollow oasis]

Vaan(Minion): One player's Brain malfunctions every time they play a new game. [V Neurons]

[young sonnet]

Breacher (Minion): "Each night, choose a player. The 1st time a chosen player dies, they all die."

[sour harness]

Rain Catcher (Fabled): A unique effect is in play based on the current weather. All players know what.

(it would basically work like djinn)

[tidal quiver]

Good Night (Townsfolk): You start knowing two players that are not the demon. You learn if either become the demon.

[shrewd cloud]

Biggermortis (Demon) “Each night*, choose a player; they die [+1 Biggermortis]”

(Based on a meme in my group where someone mistyped Vigormortis and we’ve ran with the joke of Biggermortis being so big that it needs to be two players to fit on the Grim)

It’s quite big

[hollow oasis]

Distillation of Ivory(Fabled)Once, a good player may choose to Drink the Distillation of Ivory. If If more than 1 extra evil is in play, good wins.

[feral snow]

I made this for garden of djinn lol

[tidal quiver]

Coffee Lady (Townsfolk): Your alive neighbors recieve healthy, sober, and true information

[tidal quiver]

Lol

[hollow oasis]

Mejon: If a good player decided that Communism is bad, start a war.

[shrewd cloud]

||Omg altered Nun|| specs and spoilers joke

[tidal quiver]

||I didn't even know lol||

[fast anchor]

||nun vivant ||

[shrewd cloud]

||They did the fusion dance and became one||

[tidal quiver]

Cardinal (Traveler): Each night, pick 3 alive players. All players know who. Only they can nominate tomorrow.

[coarse fern]

Soonatic: You do not know you are the Soonatic. On night 3, you are told you have been summoned by the Summoner but you haven’t

[hollow oasis]

Screech(Demon) You die if and only if the player you learn dies, and they are poisoned. After Day 5, evil wins.

[dense moat]

Hourglass (Townsfolk): Each night*, choose a player. If the Demon voted today, that player dies instead

do i do the signature Mist thing & say "the Demon can't die this way?

[hollow oasis]

I mean it's broken

because it's flowergirl that can confirm itself

[young sonnet]

To be fair, most of the characters here are broken lmao

[hollow oasis]

Lord of Iphus(Minion):Once per game, you may guess all outsiders. If correct, evil wins. [Outsiders are in a line. +2 to +3 Outsiders]

fuck it here's another one

[dense moat]

Yep. All ccordingg to plan. Definitely

[karmic rose]

I like this

[austere steppe]

I feel like this would play better at dawn public.

Either way, seems like the right kind of traveler ability (though I am on the record for being very anti traveler)

[tidal quiver]

yeah, it allows players to talk and/or try and influence the cardinal

also it's funny with witch

[austere steppe]

TBH, its probably the kind of role that could be almost any character type with a slightly different rider.

[modern plume]

Banshee:

[fierce reef]

uh-uh

sorry was just backreading and needed to comment

[karmic rose]

[3/4] Which relatively common event have you yet to see happen in one of your games?

[tacit fiber]

an evil bluff virgin?

[fast anchor]

I've seen weird stuff in my games

Comes with the territory of running a ton of them

[tacit fiber]

what the only double cyan on the server has run a lot of games????

nah

I don't believe it

[minor pier]

A strawpass. I've put Farmer in so many bags, yet somehow they never die at night !

[cyan reef]

I've only ran Banshee a handful of times but I don't think I've had one proc yet

it took about 4ish years before I saw a Huntsman choose a Damsel

[cold veldt]

you should try an Al-had banshee script, if you play enough then banshee procs become more common than banshee no procs lol

[cyan reef]

funny enough I think I ran one last time, lol

[hollow oasis]

Indeed, more demonsbanes go off when the demon chooses 3

[cyan reef]

but yeah, I just need to run more Banshee scripts in general

[hollow oasis]

I have a banshee legion script

But uh

It’s not done

[cyan reef]

the plus side is I'm going to be running more custom scripts across my two streams a month that focus on custom scripts

focusing on 1.5 minutes games instead of 2 hour games, so 3 scripts per stream instead of 2

[tacit fiber]

1.5 minute games???

[hollow oasis]

4.5 minute streams

[tacit fiber]

racetothebottomcore

[hollow oasis]

Yea

[cold veldt]

was it Paradox's Ride the Cyclone by any chance? if not then you should check it out, it's a very good script & the one i immediately think of when i think al-had

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1274771230532304898

[cyan reef]

lol

hours of course, not minutes 😉

though imagine how many custom scripts you could fit it in with 1.5 minute games!

[cyan reef]

it actually may have been, I'm not sure...I remember running a Paradox script before and it was probably around that time

[tacit fiber]

any damsel, slayer, alsaahir customs

[next marlin]

Turning a non-starting-Fang-Gu demon into a Fang Gu and jumping to a starting townsfolk for reasons other than "evil will inescapably and imminently lose otherwise"

Hell, even the first clause of "turning a non-starting-Fang-Gu demon into a Fang Gu when it isn't the only possible way to avoid an evil loss the next day"

[tacit fiber]

I think that's just "SnV shits on evil teams regularly"

I will say, I push for this whenever I'm evil with a PH

[next marlin]

Some people seem to do it as a force of habit; for this reason and several others I suspect people who do it as a force of habit really overestimate how common it is in general

(excluding longtext)

[hollow oasis]

180

[cyan reef]

and I'm sure all of them will be super high quality scripts!

[fast anchor]

I've lost by trying to do this once

[next marlin]

many such cases

[fast anchor]

So when I play s&v irl I just stick to the normal stuff

You know, good minions and demons :P

[modern plume]

Honestly, just for the novelty, I'd love to see a group just once genuinely try to run a 1.5 minute game, just the high intensity conversation and rapid votes, nominations, and just general nonsense required.

[fast anchor]

and then turning my demon into the vigor to kill them

[cyan reef]

though, there is an upcoming project that I'm excited for that hopefully will be public in the near-ish future

[modern plume]

It's like there's a Matron present but worse

[cyan reef]

speaking of this, I got to be the Wizard last week for the first time

my wish was each night, I got to move players around 😉

[modern plume]

My condolences

[cyan reef]

also it was a Lord of Typhon game lol

[modern plume]

My condolences to your fellow players /j

[cyan reef]

lol, it was fun...we won because Heretic

[modern plume]

lol

[cyan reef]

I tried looking to see which neighbors were whispering a lot and moving them away from each other

[karmic rose]

I have yet to win as Evil in S+V by reaching final 3

[cyan reef]

which wasn't really super effective but that's fine

[modern plume]

Was it intentional and the Demon ending going for the big play, or "Whoops, Demon died but we won!"

[cyan reef]

mostly it came down to them knowing it was Heretic, and us knowing it was Heretic, and they had a Lycanthrope to control the kills, but they needed to off some evils during the day

game ended when the Lycan had to off themselves which allowed the Demon to off themselves

[modern plume]

Nice, so a much more unique situation

[fast anchor]

were they the only good left alive? :O

[hollow oasis]

Interesting

[pure meadow]

I did this once. I just really didn’t want to be the demon :3

[cyan reef]

funny enough, we knew it was Heretic pretty definitively because we had a Xaan and the Village Idiot got wrong info on night 4

[next marlin]

turning down the most fun role smh

[cyan reef]

the other 2 VIs were turned into Minions so we knew the lone one was sober

[pure meadow]

It was my first time being evil in longtext. I was panicking hard

[modern plume]

I like how this implies the Lycan is desperately trying to convince the Demon to stay alive via their weird werewolf version of therapy. This is narratively bizarre

[hollow oasis]

Peak SNV is the Vigor Game

[cyan reef]

Xaan 4 meant all Outsiders in play

[next marlin]

but also wasn't that a -- yeah

longtext doesn't count

well, much of why longtext doesn't count is that it's kind of a permanent state of "imminently about to lose"

[hollow oasis]

Longtext SNV= 90% good winrate

Unless pithag

[next marlin]

so pithag jumping in longtext is under the "imminently about to lose" condition rather than the "??? no reason" condition

[next marlin]

the stats I saw were like 75-80% smh way more balanced

[hollow oasis]

So much more balanced

[fast anchor]

Had the evil team win a Riot game

There we go, took me long enough to find something

[cyan reef]

they already don't really care about how the game plays online, I could only imagine their thoughts on winrates for text games lol

[next marlin]

the only riot I ever played was an evil win but that was under, uh, Circumstances

[fast anchor]

Good has had a 100% winrate when I've run Riot

[next marlin]

(ST left two riots alive after the alch-boomdandy went off)

[hollow oasis]

Does this include [Riot-]

[cyan reef]

I've yet to run new Riot, I hope to change that

[modern plume]

Evil tends to lose in SnV in text (Unless I'm Evil)

Don't forget Bone Collector

[fast anchor]

I did forget bone collector

[foggy grotto]

a spy proccing the virgin

the only time i’ve ever seen it was when I did it

[karmic slate]

I know this is the exact opposite of the question but I thought of it and needed to say it but had a Good Team lose in a Leviathan game due to executing the same good player twice

[karmic rose]

I--

[supple dirge]

I don't think I've ever seen evil twin mutants. That's something I want to do with an experienced group

[feral snow]

I’d have to see who the mutant is

Some of my players hate being the twin and some hate being mad

I think id be shot and killed if I gave someone that

[supple dirge]

Yeah, I'd only do it to a mutant I know can handle it lol

[feral snow]

But fuck that does sound so awesome

[karmic rose]

being a twin is great if you're in the right group

you just get to vibe in town square and know that you're not getting killed/exed until late game

what are people's favorite/least favorite roles to make the twin, out of curiosity

[sour harness]

Klutz twins 👎

Even barber and sh are slightly more interesting

[karmic rose]

dreamer twins 👎

[sour harness]

Dreamer twins are fun if you're not a coward <3

Yeah no it's not great lol

I want to do it but it needs a very precarious setup

[karmic rose]

I can't see a 2+ minion setup where it works lol

But maybe I'm dum

[next marlin]

Favourite: Savant in a 3 minion game
Least favourite: Savant in a 1 minion game

[sour harness]

ND poison is playing with fire but I can see it working

[karmic rose]

yea making the good twin one of the ND poisons is fun

[ivory ridge]

savant is a fun role but it's just

one of the hardest role to st imo

[next marlin]

memey answer but damn do savant twins scale by player count

at 3 it's legitimately hilarious

at 1 it's not that fun to be the evil twin in

[sour harness]

ND poisoned dreamer good twin in a vortoxy bag with barber hag juggler mutant and no clock or artist

Oh and maybe a philo bluff or similar

[next marlin]

The complicated thing about twins is that the evil twin has far more intense bluff scrutiny than the baseline for an evil player which is what makes e.g. dreamer so consistently rough even though non-twin evils ~can bluff true dreamer info with some work

And this scrutiny is higher at low counts -- in a 1 minion game pretty much everything is about the twins

Corollary is that savant twins are incredibly funny to subject large towns to but in a small game it's way tougher even if you're confident in a normal level of savant bluffs

Because that level of scrutiny on a savant bluff with a direct control subject is gonna catch you

(and in practice this doesn't seem to do the "uhh it's a distraction from the demon" thing because the good twin can, in fact, solve the demon)

[supple dirge]

One time I was evil twin with savant, didn't feel confident bluffing savant so just claimed I was town crier with my twin claiming savant instead. It was funny. I lost.

[tacit fiber]

I remember seeing a game of SnV I think where super was the savant and just ripped through the evil twin's fake info and proves how it was irrevocably fake

[next marlin]

I saw that same game

It's fairly representative of 1 minion savant twins

[sour harness]

That's also super

[fast anchor]

I like how you then proceeded to not mention an actual Vortox game as a potential time for dreamer twins

The only time I've done dreamer twins was with an experienced player as the ET, where they correctly metad that it was a Vortox game (still lost because it was a Vortox game)

[next marlin]

Least hardsolved vortox

[sour harness]

You lack whimsy

The problem with vortox is if the ET bluffs true info and town thinks it's vortox then it's just joever

Dashii allows for some true info to mirror whatever the ET wants to bluff

[next marlin]

I'm not taking whimsy opinions from someone who hates catfishing after one (1) game "as the oracle"

[fast anchor]

It's two games actually

Guess who got him to play it

[sour harness]

No idea

[next marlin]

oh was he the no dashii poisoned pixie gossip

[sour harness]

Anyways the rk saw the demon and threw so I'm not counting it

[fast anchor]

widow poisoned ft but yes

[next marlin]

gotta love catfishing and its 1 billion demonfinders with no safety net

[sour harness]

It was an unjumped fang gu at the time

[next marlin]

RK dying at night in catfishing is outing evil so it's fine

[sour harness]

He did not claim rk

[next marlin]

It's like claiming balloonist

There's no damn balloonist and we all know it

[fast anchor]

there's a balloonist in 3 minion

[tacit fiber]

"no safety net"

the sneaky pithag:

[fast anchor]

(it added another outsider to a vigor game)

[next marlin]

what's the fang gu or godfather meant to bluff???

[fast anchor]

Gambler, pay attention

the FG can just bluff ravenkeeper

[next marlin]

well yeah the vigor game is mean to have 4 outsiders because of Godfather/Balloonist/Amnesiac

[modern plume]

I remember back with old Balloonist I convinced an ST to go Vigormortis + GF[-1] + Balloonist to result in 1 outsider game in a 12p game.

The poor Balloonist got framed so hard.

[honest tide]

I’ve yet to be mez turned. Despite my best efforts

[sharp violet]

One of my favorite games so far was being the Good Twin Math

[honest tide]

The only time I was the good twin I was the oracle who got confirmed (by juggler and other stuff) and I was campaigning to not kill my twin so I could stay alive 💀

So that was fun

Not sure if that answers the question tho

[karmic rose]

let's simply run more mez scripts

ez

[honest tide]

TRUE

actually not true. Mez scripts are so hard to make balanced imo

Extra alive evil working with the team is just… very very good

Regardless of their role

[foggy grotto]

mez can work but it’s very strong

[honest tide]

https://tenor.com/view/omni-man-invincible-look-what-they-need-to-mimic-a-fraction-of-our-power-gif-25672186

Pithag on snv trying to get an extra evil: LOOK IM BASICALLY A MEZ
Mez:

[karmic rose]

just add a bounty hunter!!! duh!!! they can find the mez-turned evil

[honest tide]

So true bestie

[austere steppe]

Bounty hunter is one of those roles that seems cool, but kinda isnt.

[dense moat]

In a way, that kinda makes sense in-universe as well

Pit Hag is theoretically still a mortal, albeit with great knowledge of spells

Mezepheles is a literal devil

[honest tide]

It’s most cool when it’s helping good the least. Which is when it is a self turning evil bounty hunter

Or it’s cool when you’re not the bh but instead the evil turned gossip

[hollow oasis]

It’s cool when the TF would be a good boffin ability

[honest tide]

Even if it wouldn’t be

Evil empath is really fun when you don’t know the evil team

Or any info gathering role really

[hollow oasis]

That’s true

Being the evil turned TF is fun

[lucid crag]

Pumpkin

played an amne game where I was so cosmically sus and so cosmically wrong that I trusted all the evil people... then the demon was promptly executed since I told someone bluffing goon I was minion and someone I'd whisper today would be my demon.

I sent the ceremad highpriestess to the gambler night 1.

I promptly learned this was a bad decision

it was fucking hilarious

[hollow oasis]

It’s a pain in the ass for legion to deal with

TBH knight is good on levi

Just a chill levi experience

[lucid crag]

Each night, choose a player: you learn their alignment. [+0 to +2 Village Idiots. 1 of the extras is heretic]

Pixies should break madness day 1

[pure meadow]

Depends on context but pop off

[lucid crag]

I've never seen a pixie help good in my entire clocktower career

lol

[pure meadow]

The only pixie game I remember was when I was cere mad as it (and pixie confirmed the politician) so I don't have any rebuttal personally :3

[next marlin]

in fairness the pixie that game was puzzledrunk

and still got the widow killed d1!

[pure meadow]

I should probably remember my livetext games better. Out of all of them I've played I remember like 3.5

I forgot there was a real pixie in that game tbh

[lucid crag]

Village idiots give you 1 to 3 kings, all but one prevent the game from ending

[lucid crag]

All-Hadikia (): Each night pick all living players (+ any number of dead players) in any order, if all choose live all die.

[lucid crag]

an organ grinder day

[tacit fiber]

tell me them

[pure meadow]

One quadjank game where I was the vizier and my demon who had the boffin atheist ability pushed for an atheist win then got executed and then lost the atheist ability during the night, around five hystrex buckets that Im counting as .1 each, the onmi bucket where I was cackling the whole time at my hubris and the emotions game where I was fully convinced I was a minion and I was the disappointment

[feral snow]

A Damsel win

[cold veldt]

[today] what is the most UNCOMMON thing that has happened to you in botc games? 😮

[tidal quiver]

4 nights of no deaths in a row in SNV

[cold veldt]

woah that's spicy stuff

what caused that to happen?

[next marlin]

Old Riot win

[lean isle]

Cerelocked as my own character.

[tidal quiver]

twins and the demon moving from (iirc) dead vortox -> dead fang gu -> living vortox

[acoustic chasm]

getting dreamer sniped n1 as the pit hag but randomly guessing the Townsfolk they dreamt me as

[tacit fiber]

everyone chose a player and someone learned the good player pointed to the most

both demons were pointed to the most

[cold veldt]

ngl despite it being a badass thing, i don't think i've ever seen a pit hag revive a demon in an evil twin game

[gusty bear]

why is it always pithags

[acoustic chasm]

to be fair it wasn't totally random. The Storyteller was fairly new, knew that I loved Savant, and didn't put Savant into the bag

[tidal quiver]

yeah us good team was super scared to kill into the twins and constant demon changes (we knew ph was in play) basically made the game unsolvable from there

[sour harness]

One time the SnV deaths went something like 1 0 2 1

[next marlin]

For a while it was always cerenovii for me but it seems to be balancing across the minions more

[tidal quiver]

also this was my first ever game played on discord

[gusty bear]

the n3 death lagged

[next marlin]

I saw a 9p game with more nights without than with deaths because the pithag kept changing the demon type

[cold veldt]

i think the coolest thing i've ever done was when i was the mathematician mad as the dreamer on snv, and i just felt the heart of the tokens when going into a conversation where i proceeded to guess a player was the town crier, and they indeed were. i love the dreamer

[pure meadow]

A win against a sober clockmaker as single minion evil twins with my demon who died d1. (This group was a very new group who mostly played off of socials with game mechanics second)

[sour harness]

It kinda did, it was ph arbitrary deaths and then the good demon killed the next night after not coming out

[cold veldt]

clearly they were going for the "have every demon type in-play at least once in a game" snv achievement

[next marlin]

They got 3 out of 4

[cold veldt]

oof so close

[acoustic chasm]

this isn't rare but I also executed the demon off an droisoned clockmaker number in SnV

It was day 2. I had a 3. No one in the circle 3 steps away from eachother decided to talk with eachother

[next marlin]

There were claims of fg/tc/oracle and town just went "okay there's no way all three of these are in play in a 9p but you all agree it's not vortox so we'll just go with that", and they were right on all counts, because the Town Crier claim was the No Dashii turned Vigormortis turned Fang Gu

[cold veldt]

has anyone here ever gotten a juggler 5 btw? that's a pretty rare thing 🤔

[acoustic chasm]

I surmised I was likely no dashii poisoned and we executed the demon

[next marlin]

Saw a good twin get a legit 5 once

[cold veldt]

(juggling legion in customs doesn't count)

[cold veldt]

did evil win lol

[next marlin]

He did himself and the twin, got two hardclaims, and just guessed the last guy

[cold veldt]

i wouldn't believe that twin for a second

[lean isle]

Haven't had 5, but I had 4 twice.

[next marlin]

No

There was also a n1 math 2 so...no

[modern plume]

I was an Engineer in a Kazali game

Kazali makes Pit-Hag and Godfather
... the same night, I used my ability and turned the Minions into Scarlet Woman and Cerenovus.
... And then got Cerelocked as Pixie for four nights in a row.
... and just claimed Pixie to the Snake Charmer the whole time, and there was a real Snake Charmer in the game and no actual Pixie

I was laughing my *ss off, because I knew no one else was being messed with by Minions and I could easily handle madness, while not causing my problems with information in the game.

[sour harness]

I've given it to a sh drunk juggler

[modern plume]

To make it worse... two Good players were accidentally confirmed as a consequence to me... because I knew they'd never bother Cerelocking me.

[gusty bear]

who is putting engi in a kaz script

[sour harness]

Was 3 the better option? Yes. But 5 was funniest

[next marlin]

iirc kazali was very new at the time

[cold veldt]

damn how did the sweetheart die that quickly

[modern plume]

Literally just released, yeah

If I recall

[gusty bear]

that's like putting oracle in a vig script

[next marlin]

and it was the first kazali longtext I think

[modern plume]

I felt so bad afterwards though

[feral snow]

Me too!

[modern plume]

Because I just completely destroyed Evil's plans on the 1st night.

[feral snow]

Co ran a TB game with 4 Monk protects in a row

We had to call a Fiddler

[modern plume]

And then their only actual active ability was squandered on someone who didn't give a sh*t

[sour harness]

Town lifted off the clockmaker claim (who was the pithag juggled as the clock) and didn't know who else to execute d1

[gusty bear]

oh i did have the monk quadruple claim that one time

that was fun

[sour harness]

One time I ran a TB game where the evil team didn't land a single kill

[modern plume]

I had a game with quadruple Artist claims
I was starting to hope more people would just claim Artist for funsies.

[lean isle]

Quadclaims are something

[next marlin]

something something 8 savants

[modern plume]

Imagine if the rest were Village Idiot claims

[sour harness]

D1 skip, n2 monk protect, D2 killed the demon, n3 monk again, d3 killed the starting sw

[pure meadow]

I’ve seen a triple claim of empath in a teensy which was from the baron, imp and the drunk

[feral snow]

Quad Shugenja claim here

Easiest evil win ever

[gusty bear]

5p teensy with an imp(me bluffing empath), ravenkeeper (bluffing monk), poisoner (bluffing monk), monk and ... undertaker (bluffing monk??)

[modern plume]

2/3s the town claims to be greatly intelligent, everyone else at least admits they're idiots

[sour harness]

One time I was in a triple claim with the entire evil team :)

[gusty bear]

anyway we executed the real monk d1 because double claim then i backed into ravenkeeper, believed that my poisoner was the real monk and then we executed the ravenkeeper after i outed evil to the monk and told him to evil rise up

[next marlin]

That's luf though, luf has a minimum of 1 tripleclaim per game

[pure meadow]

Oh yeah thats the most uncommon thing to happen to me. I double claimed someone in a three player game… in fishbucket… while in a ww ping from the third person in the game

[sour harness]

I mean I've definitely seen LuF with no double claims

D1 even

[next marlin]

those are widow games which aren't real luf

you just have to put the widow in sometimes so you can put the savant in sometimes

[sour harness]

that's 50% of LuF???

Also the demon & outsiders claimed without a widow talking to them

No wait it was just the one outsider, but still

(there was no mutant but the luna claimed balloonist)

[gusty bear]

oh oldloonist is weird in 6p luf

[sour harness]

Yeah but it was newloonist

[gusty bear]

well

statistically a pretty good bluff if you don't learn a lunatic

[sour harness]

Yeah

[fast anchor]

Being in a game with a sober Math 5

[sour harness]

What script