secret thing

[fast anchor]

yeah but she also could've not

[barren zenith]

Yeah

[cyan reef]

this isn't the HP ability though, right?

[fleet hedge]

It isn't?

[cyan reef]

no

who the ST thinks the HP should talk to the most isn't necessarily the same as who the HP would get the most benefit from

[tardy wyvern]

sent to the mez on day 1 of a LM game

[cyan reef]

I mean, they should benefit from it

but it's not, "Learn who got good information"

but Emma's doc already covers all of this

it's also why HP works best on low info scripts anyway

[fleet hedge]

I always interpreted it as "Each night, you learn who you should talk to most", with the "the Storyteller believes" being added on to clarify that the storyteller doesn't necessarily know who you would benefit most from speaking to.

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What's your favourite recurring server bit?

[fleet hedge]

But maybe I was wrong about that

[cyan reef]

well, the ST should generally have a good idea

I mean, they're not omniscient of course

[next marlin]

(yes, mizu, I'm hijacking on purpose, we have discussed everything that can be discussed on this and we desperately need to talk about literally anything else before I get drawn into five more hours of it)

[fleet hedge]

There are no official criteria that determine which player the Storyteller must show to the High Priestess. It is up to the Storyteller’s judgement as to what they think will most benefit the High Priestess and the good team in general.

[cyan reef]

but they should have a general idea of who is, or isn't, on the right track in the game

[fleet hedge]

I think this backs up my interpretation

[tardy wyvern]

canadian catfishing

[fleet hedge]

They choose based on who they think will most benefit the good team in general

[cyan reef]

if your interpretation is "they should learn a Fortune Teller who got information" then I don't think it does

[next marlin]

yesterday I sent mizu the grim for a catfishing game and he asked me what script it was

[fleet hedge]

This superlative is the reason the FT example is imo just not following the ability text

[tardy wyvern]

amazing

[fleet hedge]

No, they should learn a FT who got a yes on them and the demon

Because that is very useful to the good team

[cyan reef]

it's useful regardless of if the HP learned them

[fleet hedge]

Conversely, they should not get a FT who yessed on the RH

[cyan reef]

maybe they should

these things can't really be fully determined in a vacuum

this just kind of goes back to thinking the HP ability is "learn someone who got good information", which is so incredibly OP to the point of making it broken

[fleet hedge]

The FT might just sit on their info, but because the HP tells them they should reveal something, the FT is more open about their powerful information

[cyan reef]

maybe, but the game by default assumes people aren't just sitting on their info

[fleet hedge]

The Emma doc assumes that good players reveal all their information, when roles like Poisoner and literally every killing demon exist to prevent this from happening

[cyan reef]

it doesn't assume all players reveal all their information, it assumes most people are talking and sharing their info, which they should be

if they're not, then it's kinda out of scope for the document

even for groups who are playing with the meta that people don't really do much until they info dump on the final day when the ST gives them tons of extra time to do so, the info will still get outed eventually

[fleet hedge]

Say there's demon mobility on script, then it's very important good act on that info early

Are you arguing that HP should completely ignore information?

[cyan reef]

hopefully the FT is already taking that into consideration

wut

I'm not sure what that question means in this context

[ivory ridge]

i need material for my stormcaught hp script

that’s it

[fleet hedge]

You seem to be arguing that info roles will out their information eventually, so HP shouldn't take players receiving information into consideration

[cyan reef]

yeah, I don't understand that conclusion

[fleet hedge]

Would you run HP fully based on the players and worlds people are pushing

[cyan reef]

HP is entirely context-dependent

what I'm saying is the same thing Emma says, it's not a character that's meant to be "each night, learn a player who got good information"

[fleet hedge]

On the first night, the High Priestess learns Julian. Julian is the Chef and has useful information to share.

Take this example from the wiki, would you argue against doing this because the Chef will tell people their info anyway?

[dry sluice]

I don't really have a favorite recurring server bit. IMO, recurring bits are less funny than new ones. My favorite part of the server is how we invent new bits every single day. Much like

[cyan reef]

if the FT gets a good yes and then doesn't push on it for a few days or thinks it's a red herring, it could make sense for the ST to send the HP to them

[tardy wyvern]

i agree honestly, the reason i like canadian catfishing as a bit is because im reminded of it like once every week or so after having forgot about it

[cyan reef]

if the FT got a good yes that very night, it's reasonable to expect that that info will come out, sooner or later...the HP doesn't typically need to learn that then because it's redundant

[fleet hedge]

So what would you decide who to show the HP N1 based on?

Because there isn't anything else to base it off really

[tacit fiber]

this is what I was saying lol

[cyan reef]

depends on the script and the game and the players and the characters in play, etc

[tacit fiber]

In a more… combative way ig

[cyan reef]

there are certainly things to go off of

[barren zenith]

Final Nail with a Stormcatcher (jk)

It's solo-imp iirc?

[ivory ridge]

yes

i’ve given up on boffin

and moved to spy rn

[cyan reef]

I could in fact just copy from Emma's doc

" On Night One Especially, Players they might want to role swap with or who could use a friend

Do you know who could use someone to trust quickly? A Damsel. And it behooves good to know if a Damsel is in play so they can know to spend time providing Damsel cover and making it harder for the minions to find and guess the Damsel. The Damsel makes for an excellent player to send the High Priestess to. An early trust bond or giving the damsel the High Priestess role to claim while the High Priestess tries to look like a Damsel can make the difference between the minions finding the damsel or not. An early role swap for the damsel can work wonders. The High Priestess can do that.

And not just the Damsel! Demon banes like the Ravenkeeper, Sage, Farmer, or Banshee can benefit from an early High priestess visit to get a powerful role they can swap into so the demon might want to kill them.

Or a Juggler. They don’t have info yet, but having a secure High Priestess claim to juggle can help them lock in whether their info is sober or not, or subject to a Vortox. "

running HP as "each night, learn a player who got good info" isn't intended, fun, or balanced, so I guess I just don't see the point in it

and if on night 1 there's not really much for the HP to do other than learn someone who got info, then at that point there's a script issue

[tacit fiber]

I think that the HP going to the Damsel d1 won’t be a good conversation that will benefit anyone

Specifically that example assumes that the Damsel will out so they can roleswap and hide

[fast anchor]

I've seen game after game where a HP shown a damsel can start covering for them even if they don't out

[tacit fiber]

and not if the Damsel lies to the HP and the HP thinks that it’s helpful info bc they were shown

[fast anchor]

either that or get them killed

[tacit fiber]

Google how do I read minds

[fast anchor]

¯_(ツ)_/¯ idk what to tell you, in practice it works out really well

even if the HP thinks they got shown their pixie or the Mutant or a bluffless Minion

having that conversation is still valuable to the good team

[feral snow]

I think showing the damsel day 1 is fine as long as the HP could reasonably figure it out retroactively

[cyan reef]

yeah, pretty much this

[fast anchor]

My opinions on HP have really only formed from running the character a ton

[cyan reef]

as usual, you also have to consider the players you're playing with and such

[feral snow]

You should write a doc

[tacit fiber]

my Kazali has been executed bc they claimed to have seen a damsel n1 this isn’t nesc true

[cyan reef]

it's not like a given that the Damsel should be learned night 1, but it's a good option

I kind of like Outsiders in general as night 1 targets, as kind of like a soft Librarian (again, depends on a lot of factors though)

[tacit fiber]

mhm

[fast anchor]

Maybe I'll consolidate my thoughts in a tumblr post at some point but I've already said them somewhere or other

[tacit fiber]

sort of how seeing tf n1 is a soft washerwoman and a minion n1 is a soft investigator?

[cyan reef]

sometimes showing a Minion who will have a hard time getting a good bluff can be a decent option, I did this once for (old) Organ Grinder who ended up being suspected as such

[tacit fiber]

Suspecting old OG helps evil

[ivory ridge]

i was killed d1 as an innkeeper because idk why HP was sent to me 😭

[fast anchor]

Bluffless minions are something I've personally leaned away from showing (especially if I know the player is experienced) because if they slide into something out of play it can sometimes backfire

[feral snow]

Oh you’re mad about this game lol

[ivory ridge]

i lie about my role because i’m like “no fucking way you get me” (but also because i’m unlucky and talk to HP first)

[feral snow]

That explains a lot

[ivory ridge]

no it’s not about that

i have the HP script idea before that game

[feral snow]

I know

I mean you brought it up again presumably because of this

[cyan reef]

I tend to run big games that have few bluffs to go around in the first place, but it's a good point nevertheless

[feral snow]

It’s being talked about in our other server too

[ivory ridge]

no it’s because i ran out of tf being put in

and like 20% because of it too tbf

i was like “what are some good pick now”

[cyan reef]

my favorite HP choice I'd ever done was in a Legion game, when I found out that one particular Legion player planned to throw the HP specifically under the bus, so I showed the HP that Legion player

[ivory ridge]

oop

wait….

holy shit

instead of solo imp, solo imp legion???

[feral snow]

I thought you finally saw the value of this character

[ivory ridge]

ew no

i am very explicit because the reason i want to make this script is to convince people hp suck

[tacit fiber]

omg based Mizu

[next marlin]

Oh yeah how's Final Nail in the Maple Leaf going

[tacit fiber]

omg Based Mizu

[ivory ridge]

boffin is out

[next marlin]

Add it back, it was funnier

[cyan reef]

this is easy, just make it an info-heavy script

it's really easy to write a bad script for HP

[next marlin]

Anyway unironically I want to corral hp discourse into a thread I never have to look at because I can't not get dragged into it and it's so goddamn miserable

[fast anchor]

honestly same

[next marlin]

so what's your answer to today's question then

[fast anchor]

Pukka tea

it's an old bit but it's a good bit

[ivory ridge]

7

[fast anchor]

it hasn't resurfaced for some time

[fast anchor]

rep livetext 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[next marlin]

I've had a player put 7 in my end of day countdowns when I was STing on the app

[tacit fiber]

LIVETEXT REFERENCE WHAT THE FUCK ARE MULTIPLE MINIONS 🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[fast anchor]

who????

[next marlin]

forgor

actually I don't forget names but I'm never confident in my ability to place them to people

[fast anchor]

you don't know my name

[next marlin]

everyone has like, 12 names to me

it's a thing

[tacit fiber]

Lemme make it easier to place

I’m axolator

[next marlin]

so true

[tacit fiber]

ooo what are mine :3

[cyan reef]

my favorite bit

this legit brings me joy

[ivory ridge]

BH rework and Poppy rework coming soon

this list is just “character that need rework”

[next marlin]

You start knowing 1 evil player. [1 Townsfolk is evil]

[ivory ridge]

start knowing only minion 🔥

wait that’s just ||better mole||

[next marlin]

I really love the artemis pitch for an outsider BH1 good character is evil and known by the Demon. If you correctly publicly guess (once) who they are, learn the evil team that night.

[fast anchor]

Steward (Townsfolk): You start knowing 1 good player. When they die, learn another.

[next marlin]

hystrex steward

[ivory ridge]

wait i fear you cook

wait no

that’s just high priestess

mb

[fast anchor]

i like normal steward 😭😭😭

[barren zenith]

You're forgetting the [1 minion is good]

[next marlin]

also, finally people will stop gunning for me for showing the poli to the steward

[ivory ridge]

showing poli to steward is fine

if invest ping can be fucked by recluse

[fast anchor]

Thinking back to the game where the steward saw the Poli bluffing knight seeing the demon

Then the pixie-steward saw the dead magician

[next marlin]

Townsfolkiest pixie

[next marlin]

also just get 16p pickup bmr? skill issue

[shrewd cloud]

I don’t think it’s something you should never do but I do think STs should keep in mind that Steward already feels noticeably weaker at times compared to other YSKs. I’ve honestly moved to trying to give Knights and Stewards better info when I run them since them getting info that’s technically correct but less helpful makes already weaker characters weaker

That’s just me though, I’m not going to ever say you should never put stuff like Poli in a Steward ping for the full record

[sour harness]

PLEASE

[sour harness]

PLEASE

[sour harness]

Knight and steward (especially steward) are extremely subject to the misinfo landscape of the script, and in particular they're susceptible to their info being junked (think knight + demon movement)

I don't think there's a consistent way to storytell them that makes sense

e.g. vortox!steward and poisoner!steward have very different implications

[hollow oasis]

Vortox steward is the balance point

[sour harness]

(and spy+imp!steward is fully a blank token)

[hollow oasis]

For steward misinfo

[sour harness]

No it's the "technically not a blank token" point

[hollow oasis]

Vortox steward literally learns an evil

[sour harness]

Yeah that's the problem

[hollow oasis]

You have to solve for vortox

[sour harness]

You just learn someone

They might be evil

They might be good

They're usually good, but everyone is usually good

[hollow oasis]

Solve vortox then come back to your info

It’s not arbitrary

[sour harness]

Or solve vortox and come back to their info

Which imo is the right place for that dynamic to exist

No need to take up an entire townsfolk slot for it

It's such a bland token and a bland bluff

[hollow oasis]

Evils are cowards

And bluff Vortoxed info

[sour harness]

We had that dynamic already

[next marlin]

I've been turning over your interpretation of "vortox role vs poisoner role" in my head lately because it's not the interpretation I had when I drew the distinction of tb and snv roles assuming different misinfo

[sour harness]

Oh interesting

[next marlin]

Poisoner is more misinfo than Vortox and makes it less likely your info is true, but it also exists in the form of 'snipes'

[sour harness]

Honestly on this scale I'm more confident with steward than other characters, except maybe knight

[next marlin]

Clockmaker is imbalanced if evil has to get lucky against it but Empath is imbalanced if it's true, like, ever

[sour harness]

Everyone agrees that knight is problematic w vortox and fine with poisoner, but treat steward as the opposite

[next marlin]

Both of these roles are kind of at extremes though because they're wildly exceptionally OP

Clock is realistically not quite a vortox role either because it's heretic-style balanced in vortox

[sour harness]

I don't think "more misinfo" is a term that makes sense

Opens up more worlds? Sure

But a Poisoner is NOT consistently trashing a clockmaker

[next marlin]

I'm not convinced knight is fine with poisoner

[sour harness]

??

[next marlin]

Knight is weird because misinfo makes it "YSK the demon" so it's a special case amongst things

[sour harness]

Right so it shouldn't be traceable

[next marlin]

I love the theoretical concept of knight vortox but yeah it only works with legion

[sour harness]

Which leaves you with... pois and widow, am I missing any

Well there's drunk and pm but let's say evilsided misinfo

[next marlin]

Anyway I think the core of the distinction is in the sort of info it is -- the reason Dreamer is a misplaced poisoner role

Because Dreamer is basically Undertaker which is the second most poisoner role

Actually maybe the most

Steward isn't a poisoner role because then it's actually arbitrary

[sour harness]

Wait can we go back to this

[next marlin]

No

[sour harness]

Oh ok

[next marlin]

I don't know what info landscape I like knight in yet because it's a pain in the ass

The answer might be "legion scripts and nothing else"

[sour harness]

Knight gets into the weeds of something I've been thinking a lot about recently that I don't have a flashy name for rn

Junking landscape?

How often info gets outdated

[next marlin]

Anyway, be a good ST and not a bad one

[sour harness]

See that doesn't solve anything tho

[next marlin]

Yes it does

Like, that is parodically bad STing

[sour harness]

Or bad script writing

[next marlin]

Now, I've played enough games and specced enough games to know some people give lunatic and atheist as two of the three demon bluffs

[sour harness]

Why would that be possible

[next marlin]

But come on

[barren zenith]

The perfect info landscape for knight is China Shop imo

[sour harness]

If something is possible then I gotta account for it in the solve

[barren zenith]

No demon mobility, some (but not too much) misinformation

[sour harness]

For reference

The misinfoscape for knight is exactly widow puzzlemaster philo amne (the last 2 don't count)

The junkscape is nonexistent

Yeah this feels right

[next marlin]

misinfoscape [...] amneI know this is a joke but this is exactly how you sound to me when you're talking about spy imp steward

[sour harness]

Look I have to include it

[next marlin]

Like yes, but

[barren zenith]

There's plausible deniability when it comes to knight pings

[sour harness]

Yeah

[sour harness]

If there was a Boffin things might be different

[next marlin]

Anyway I've come to think I just don't particularly like knight in general because it's really strong when its info actually works and really weak when it doesn't

[sour harness]

Yeah valid

[next marlin]

Which is a knife's edge to balance

[sour harness]

-# steward is one of those things

[sour harness]

Knight's edge

[fast anchor]

the perfect misinfoscape for knight is miss register 🤩

[sour harness]

Post

I'm lazy

I got impatient

[next marlin]

apparently not that lazy

[sour harness]

Misinfoscape is pukka lleech drunk and oh so technically recluse

Junkscape is nonexistent but lleech is a thing that exists

[next marlin]

math 1 when I register the recluse as the demon to the knight and don't put them in the ping 🔥

[barren zenith]

On a slightly unrelated note, virgin + lleech??

[sour harness]

Bootlegged

The host registers as not a townsfolk to the virgin

[barren zenith]

What about if the virgin is hosted?

[sour harness]

Still trying to figure out whether I want to classify lleech as a junking role or not. I'm feeling no but maybe I'll change my mind

the lecture is cooking, I just need to let it simmer in my mind longer

[sour harness]

There's always drunk to explain it away

[tacit fiber]

heretic-style balanced?

[ebon idol]

I do agree that knight and steward are usually super weak but also like, I think it’s a combination of ppl running it poorly and people putting on scripts it doesn’t belong

I think steward knight should go on scripts with low n1 misinfo just if anything because I don’t think it’s a fun dynamic for those roles to be easily droisonable

[cyan reef]

I love Steward

Knight is fine, I love it less, lol

[shrewd cloud]

Me when the Knight has a Scarlet Woman and Outsider in a Fang Gu game in its pings

Script building obviously helps to prevent that but even with scripts with moving Demons I think STs need to not put stuff like that in Knight pings as much as they do

[ebon idol]

I really like steward actually just because I like any roles that give ppl a friend

[shrewd cloud]

Steward I do like more than Knight and think it’s not as bad about info being super junkable even when sober and healthy (though stuff like Outsider in a Fang Gu game can still be quite sad)

I don’t use it much for script building personally but it is nice for when stuff like Washerwoman and Granny don’t fit

[sour harness]

Which is why I like ogre way better

Or washerwoman

Or grandmother

[hollow oasis]

Steward works way better in a SNV environment than a TB environment

[tidal quiver]

Me too (I'm lonely)

[coarse fern]

Oh I see someone brought up HP

A fatal mistake

[next marlin]

We're not talking about it

[sour harness]

Pebbles you literally just brought it back up

[sharp violet]

anyways I can't talk about it ||||

[coarse fern]

And you just brought it back up again, you’re no better than I am

[ivory ridge]

hp is like, the antichrist of this chat

[sour harness]

Health Points!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ivory ridge]

i was thinking more like

this

[sour harness]

LOL

[tidal quiver]

Be not afraid of the HP

[pure meadow]

I keep looking at this chat and getting confused why it’s under my name then realizing it’s wafles and not waffles 😭

[flat lintel]

this is so fire

[sour harness]

[vati isn't real] change one word in a character's ability text to make it as bad as you possibly can

[next marlin]

Actually I'm the only real person

Each night*, choose a player: they die. Townsfolk abilities yield true info. Each day, if no-one is executed, evil wins.

[sour harness]

Wait wait

Vortex (Demon): Each night*, choose a player: they die. Outsider abilities yield false info. Each day, if no-one is executed, evil wins.

Occultist 🔥🔥🔥

[next marlin]

I also considered "if no-one is executed, good wins"

[barren zenith]

You start knowing 0 good player

[sour harness]

That's good too

[sour harness]

I said to change the ability

[karmic rose]

If you were toxic today, you cannot die by exile.

[lean isle]

Sage: If the Demon kills, you learn that it is 1 of 2 players.

[karmic rose]

balanced in Levi games

[modern plume]

Bad as in for the player with that token, or bad as in for the game?

[lean isle]

Yeah, but that's just a blank token at that point.

[karmic rose]

b- but what if boffin alch assassin???

[modern plume]

Heretic

• Who ever wins, loses & whoever loses, loses, even if you are dead.

[fast anchor]

Boffin (Minion): The Demon (even if drunk or poisoned) has a not-in-play evil character's ability. You both know which.

[dense moat]

Legion (Demon): Each night*, a player might die. Executions fail if only evil voted. You register as a Minion too. [2 players are Legion]

Better idea

Balloonist (Townsfolk) Each night, you learn a character of a different character type than last night. [+0 or +1 Outsider]

Snake Charmer (Townsfolk) Each night, choose an alive player: a chosen Demon swaps seats & alignments with you & is then poisoned.

[modern plume]

Lil'Monsta Each Night, Minions choose who babysits Lil'Monsta & "is the Demon". Each Night*, a Minion might die. [+1 Minion]

[barren zenith]

Politician:
If you were the player most responsible for your team losing, you swap alignments and lose, even if dead.

[dense moat]

Leviathan (Demon): If more than 1 good player is executed, evil wins. All players know you are in play. After day 69,evil wins.

[fleet hedge]

Baron: There are extra Outsiders in play. [+15 Outsiders]

Actually that wouldn't do much

Because there can only be like 4 or 5 anyway

[sour harness]

Choose what you want

[dense moat]

Athiest: The Storyteller can break the game rules, and if executed, good wins, even if you are dead [No good characters]

[fleet hedge]

Farmer: When you die at night, an alive demon player becomes a Farmer.

[dense moat]

So old Heathen then

[fleet hedge]

Bishop: Only the demon can nominate. At least 1 opposing player must be nominated each day.

[sour harness]

& if executed, evil wins 👀

[modern plume]

Buddhist: For the first 2000 minutes of each day, veteran players may not talk.

Peace and quiet at last

[barren zenith]

Klutz (outsider):
When you learn that you died, publicly choose 726 alive players: if they are evil, your team loses.

[next marlin]

hey hystrex we found a new role for Binary Supernovae

[fleet hedge]

Clockmaker: You start knowing how many steps from the Demon to its nearest Clockmaker.

Finally SnV is balanced

[dense moat]

Xaan: On Night X, all Minions are poisoned until dusk [X Outsiders]

or

Xaan: On Night X, all Townsfolk are poisoned until dusk [X Travellers]

[sour harness]

YOOOO

[modern plume]

Ferryman: On the final day, all dead players lose their vote token.

[barren zenith]

Imp (demon):
Each night*: choose a person: they die. If you kill yourself this way, a minion becomes the imp.

[sour harness]

Wait this is so funny

[fleet hedge]

Toymaker: The Demon may choose not to attack & must do this at least thrice per game. Evil players get normal starting info.

[sour harness]

you can't die at any time

[dense moat]

Revolutionairy: 2 neighboring players are known the be the same character. Once per game, 1 of them registers falsely

[fleet hedge]

Savant: Each day, you may visit the Mutant to learn 2 things in private: 1 is true & 1 is false.

[modern plume]

Spirit of Ivory: There must be more than 1 extra evil player.

[dense moat]

Fiddler: Once per game, the Demon secretly chooses an allied player: all players secretly choose which of these 2 players wins.

[sour harness]

Once per game, during the day, privately ask the Demon any yes/no question.

[dense moat]

We Sects & Bewlets now?

[sour harness]

Nah sags & valets

[modern plume]

Angel: Something awesome might happen to whoever is most responsible for the death of a new player.

[dense moat]

Choirboy: If the Demon kills the King, you learn which player is the King [+the King]

[fleet hedge]

Stormcatcher: Name a good character. If in play, they can only die by execution, but good players learn which player it is.

[sour harness]

Something illegal might happen to whoever talks when the Storyteller has asked for silence.

[dense moat]

Nightwatchman: Once per game, at night, choose a player: they learn you are the Damsel

[next marlin]

Average first script

[modern plume]

I don't think that really is a problem, lol

[karmic rose]

"Each night*, a player might die. Executions fail if only evil voted. You register as a Minion too. [All players are Legion]"

[modern plume]

That Nightwatchman is immune to the Vortox

[fleet hedge]

Vigormortis: Each night*, choose a player: they die. Minions you kill keep their ability & hug 1 Townsfolk neighbor. [-1 Outsider]

[sour harness]

Once per night, at night, choose 2 players (not yourself): you learn if they are the same alignment.

[dense moat]

Psychopath: Each day, before nominations, you may publicly choose a player: they die. If executed, you only die if you lose Monopoly

[modern plume]

Bureaucrat: Each night, choose a player (not yourself): their vote counts as infinite votes tomorrow.

[karmic rose]

coward. make it campaign for north africa and then we're talking

[dense moat]

Too many words

[sour harness]

Each night, choose a player: you learn their alignment. [+0 to +2 Village Idiots. 1 of the Demons is drunk]

[fleet hedge]

Sentinel: There might be 1 extra or 47 fewer Outsider in play.

[feral snow]

I swear to god I was just about to do this

[karmic rose]

(fair lmao. this is just a plant to get everyone to look up campaign for north africa)

[sour harness]

Simply be faster

[dense moat]

Goblin: If you publicly claim to be the Joker when nominated & are executed that day, your team wins

[feral snow]

Puzzlemaster: 1 player is drunk, even if you die. If you guess (once) who it is, learn the Demon player, but guess wrong & get true info

[fleet hedge]

Djinn : Use the Djinn's special rule. No players know what it is.

[next marlin]

Clearly you didn't because you, unlike me, are not real

[feral snow]

I think I’m real

[modern plume]

Deviant: If you weren't funny today, you cannot die by exile.

[feral snow]

So I probably am

[next marlin]

98% of deviants

[dense moat]

Alchemist: You have a Minion ability. When using this, the Storyteller may prompt you to choose yourself

[feral snow]

Steward: You start knowing 1 good Storyteller

[next marlin]

guys I got a 0

[sour harness]

If you are executed, all but Demon players die. After a 10 to 1 countdown, the player with the most players pointing at them, dies.

[fleet hedge]

Gardener: The Cerenovus assigns 1 or more players' characters.

[sour harness]

There are none to be found

[lean isle]

Gambler: Each night*, choose a player & guess their character: if you guess wrong, you lose.

[sour harness]

Vati I can't read ok

Bounty hunter

[next marlin]

Just like redditors

[dense moat]

Engineer: Once per game, at night, choose which Townsfolk or which Demon is in play

[feral snow]

lol it is a bad storyteller. An invalid answer should give a no

[next marlin]

Least rules-lawyery squallpost

[sour harness]

Each night*, choose a player: they die. [You choose which players are which Fableds. -? to +? Outsiders]

[dense moat]

Mezepheles: You start knowing a curse word. The 1st good player to say this word becomes evil at night

[lean isle]

Savant: Each night, you may visit the Storyteller to learn 2 things in private: 1 is true & 1 is false.

[karmic rose]

Stormcatcher: "Name a good character. If in play, they can only die by execution, but all players learn which player it is."

[modern plume]

Artist Once per game, during the day, during the day, privately ask the Storyteller any Spanish question.

ST: Sorry, needs to be in spanish.
Player: Asks question in spanish
ST: ¡No hablo español!

[dense moat]

Minstrel: When a Minion dies by execution, all other players (except Demons) are drunk until dusk tomorrow

Slayer: Once per game, during the day, choose a player: if they neighbor the Demon, they die

[next marlin]

Each night*, choose a player: they die. [You choose which players are which Minions. 0 Outsiders]

[dense moat]

Mayor: If only 3 players live & no execution occurs, your team wins. If you die at night, another player might die too

Grandmayor 😎

Evil Twin: You & an opposing player know each other. If the good player is executed, evil wins. Good can’t win if you both die

All games have a 2 day timer

[vale oxide]

Are there any characters left

[dense moat]

Plenty, I would think

We may need another google sheet at this rate

[karmic rose]

Most of the demons are left

[dense moat]

Al-Hadikiah: Each night*, you may choose 3 players (all Minions learn who): each silently chooses to live or die, but if all live, all die.

[gray ridge]

Organ Grinder: All players keep their eyes closed when talking and the vote tally is secret. Each night, choose if you are drunk until dusk.

[karmic rose]

Yagababble: You start knowing a public phrase. For each time you said it publicly today, a player might die.

[dense moat]

Lleech: Each night*, choose a player: they die. You start by choosing a player: they are poisoned. You die if & only if they are evil.

Alternatively...

[vale oxide]

Kazali: Each night*, choose a player: they die. [You choose which players are which characters. -? to +? Outsiders]"

[modern plume]

Gardener: The Storyteller assigns 1 or more players pronouns

Made a role that breaks server rules, would anger quite a few people, while not being explicitly criminal.

[dense moat]

Lleech: Each night*, choose a player: they die. You start by choosing a player: they are evil. You die if & only if they are dead.

King: Each night, if the dead equal or outnumber the living, you learn 1 dead character. The Demon knows you are the King.

Knight: You start knowing 2 players that are not the Knight

[modern plume]

Bootlegger: This script has no characters or rules.

Bootlegged atheist

[dense moat]

Golem: You may only nominate once per day. When you do, if the nominee is not the Demon, they die.

Or

[modern plume]

Djinn: Use the Djinn's special rule. No players know what it is.

[dense moat]

Golem: You may only talk once per game. When you do, if the nominee is not the Demon, they die.

[dense moat]

Made Golem an Outsider

Buddhist: For the first 2 minutes of each day, new players may not talk

Mastermind: If the Demon dies by execution (ending the game), play for 1 more day. If a player is then nominated, their team loses.

[tacit fiber]

You do know what your ability is. Each day, privately guess what it is: you learn how accurate you are.

The Storyteller can break the game rules, and if executed, good wins, even if you are dead. [Four evil characters]

You always register as evil & as a Minion or Demon, even if dead.

You & an opposing player don't know each other. If the good player is executed, evil wins. Good can't win if you both live.

All players keep their eyes closed when voting and the vote tally is secret. Each night, choose if everyone are drunk until dusk.

Townsfolk start knowing a secret phrase. For each time you said it publicly today, a player might die.

If more than 1 good player is executed, good wins. All players know you are in play. After day 5, evil wins.

[next marlin]

longtext yagga

[cyan reef]

"On your last night, choose a player (not yourself): you become their alignment (you don't know which) even if drunk or poisoned."

[honest tide]

Boffin (Minion): The Demon (only if drunk or poisoned) has a not-in-play good character's ability. You both know which.

[severe raven]

Each night, you learn which alignment the Demon thinks is winning: good, evil, or neither.

Once per game, at night, choose a character: they are eliminated for 3 nights & 3 days.

[next marlin]

Actually kinda cool

[honest tide]

Sidenote a character that does something when they themselves are poisoned is a fun homebrew/amne possibility

[tidal quiver]

Each night, you learn which alignment you believe is winning: good, evil, or neither

"You start knowing 1 evil player. If the player you know dies, you learn another evil player tonight. [1 Townsfolk is good]"

[honest tide]

If the Storyteller kills you, all players learn this. From now on, you may nominate twice per day and vote twice per nomination

[tidal quiver]

Ok ok hear me out: "if the town kills you..."

[honest tide]

Or better yet:

If the King kills you, all players learn this. From now on, you may nominate twice per day and vote twice per nomination

[tidal quiver]

"On night X, all Townsfolk are poisoned until dusk. [X Demons]"

[honest tide]

Each night*, you guess which character died by execution today.

[tidal quiver]

"uhh... Chef?"

[honest tide]

ST: Cool

Go to sleep

[tidal quiver]

"You get 50 bluffs. On the 3rd night, choose a player: they become an evil Demon of your choice. [No Demon]"

[pure meadow]

Fishbucket exclusive character 🔥

[honest tide]

"You get 3 bluffs. On the 7th night, choose a player: they become an evil Demon of your choice. [No Demon]"

Leviathan hard mode

[tidal quiver]

"Each day, before nominations, you may publicly choose a player: they die. If executed, you only die if you lose chess."

[pure meadow]

Make sure the only demon is riot when running this character

[honest tide]

"You get 3 bluffs. On the 3rd night, choose a player: they become an good Demon of your choice. [No Demon]"

[tidal quiver]

"On day 3, Minions become Riot & nominees die but nominate an alive player immediately. This must not happen."

[tardy wyvern]

The 1st time you are nominated, if the nominator is a Saint, they are executed immediately.

[coarse fern]

Each townsfolk gets 3 bluffs

Each night, learn which Demon the storyteller thinks you should talk to the most

[shrewd cloud]

Only slightly more broken than HP seeing good and sober/healthy player every night clearly /j

[tacit fiber]

let's refrain from HP discourse in secret-thing :3
-# even though "EN, learn a player" is 10x less fun than that"

[ivory ridge]

do not let the mercy-priestess strike you

[honest tide]

This would be incredibly powerful

[acoustic chasm]

Choirboy: If the Demon kills the King, you learn which player is the Demon. [-the King]

[supple dirge]

Magician: The Demon thinks you are a Minion. Townsfolk think you are a Demon.

[sharp violet]

Fortune Teller: "Each night, choose 2 players: you learn if either is a Demon. There is a good player that registers as a Demon to everyone."

[dense moat]

Empath: Each night, you learn how many of your 2 alive neighbors are Travellers.

[sharp violet]

Imp: "Each night*, choose a character: they die. If you kill yourself this way, a Minion becomes the Imp."

Recluse: "You might register as evil & as a Minion or Demon, even if alive."

Scarlet Woman: "If there are 5 or more players alive & the Demon dies, you become the Demon. (Townsfolk don't count)"

[dense moat]

Drunk: You do not know you are the Drunk. You think you are a Minion character, but you are not.

[alpine silo]

Pixie: You start knowing 1 in-play Townsfolk. If you were mad that you were this character, you gain their ability when they live.

[foggy grotto]

Spy: “Each day, you see the Grimoire. You might register as good & as a Townsfolk or Outsider, even if dead."

[dense moat]

Astaroth moment

[hollow oasis]

Atheist:The storyteller can break the game rules, and if executed, good wins, even if dead. [No evil storytellers]

[tidal quiver]

Now I am changing 2 words not one but here is my magnum opus:

Atheist: The storyteller can break the game rules, and if executed, good wins, even if dead. [No]

[gray ridge]

You start knowing 1 in-play Demon. If you were mad that you were this character, you gain their ability when they die.

[coarse notch]

"When you die, 1 Storyteller is drunk from now on."

[ebon idol]

[march 1st 2025] What is your single hottest clocktower take?
(No HP, please 👍)

[ivory ridge]

each night steward with one evil misreg is a fine character /s

[ebon idol]

Bonus: If you participated [the last time this question was asked](#1104980997470171177 message), do you still agree with that hot take?

[modern plume]

(On the prior thing): Magnus Carlsen, the unstoppable Psychopath.

[next marlin]

High player count TB fundamentally doesn't hold up except as a way to introduce new players, because the possible configurations of evil teams are too narrow with 1 demon/4 minions and TB games are so defined by what minions are in play or town thinks are in play

[tardy wyvern]

Bad Moon Rising is my favorite base 3 script to storytell

[next marlin]

12p is still overrated

[barren zenith]

8p/11p is better than 12p

Wait, Vati's just said that

[modern plume]

That seems like a pretty reasonable opinion most people would accept without necessarily holding the same opinion, lol.

[tardy wyvern]

I don’t have very many clocktower hot takes

I’ve been told “Cult Leader is the worst character in the game” isn’t a hot take and that would be the only other thing I’d say

[barren zenith]

I like Cult Leader

[modern plume]

That would be a hot take when Huntsman exists

[next marlin]

I can forgive a lot about a character if it's aesthetically cool

[barren zenith]

It consistently makes for fun games imo

[tardy wyvern]

I might just have bad experiences with cult leader but not only have I never seen a cult leader win, I’ve played games where the cult leader just doesn’t out and plays for evil

[coarse fern]

I actually had a Cult Leader win once and it was an amazing game and a great time, I think it can just go either way

[ebon idol]

I have a few takes of a variety of hotness

1. An incredibly large percent of players are not ready for Vizier, Kazali, Atheist, Heretic, especially wizard, and similar characters. These characters play with fire and concepts in BoTC that aren't widely understood, and it causes a lot of damage in a lot of different ways. They require adept storytellers, adept players, and for groups to have a good amount of experience with each other. This isn't an uncommon opinion but I believe this very firmly and to a larger extent than most

2. this take gets colder and colder over time as evidenced above, 12p is overrated and I really hate how little I get to play anything else. Other player counts have very interesting dynamics and I want to see them

3. Knight and steward get a lot of shit they don't deserve. They are script built quite poorly commonly. Additionally the line of thinking of "Steward is just a weaker x" is very flawed thinking, because they provide for noticeably different social situations and are in my opinion more interesting and fun than most of the similar YSK. I'd personally rather draw steward than WW.

4. People imo should be much more willing to bootleg things in their games. I am biased as a text ST, because it's easier to run multiple modifications in a game that lasts a lot longer, as you can sit with it and it's easier to remember. There's a lot of problems that just go poof if you just decide to run things RAF.

[modern plume]

Add "STs" to the 1st part to make "An incredibly larger percent of players and STs", gets more hot as a take, gets more correct.

[ebon idol]

thought I had written that tbh, honestly it's more true for STs

[modern plume]

I noticed the 'required adept storytellers' part and I assumed that was part of the intent, aye, but didn't see it included explicitly

As well: Include Amnesiac

Some Amnesiacs I've seen are the start of horror stories in of themselves.

[ebon idol]

there should be a penalty, every bad amne you run you must run 15 trouble brewings to repent

[modern plume]

A new religion just dropped: Repentance Trouble Brewing Rosary.

[fast anchor]

OPG huntsman is fine, y'all just need to get good at finding your damsels

[ebon idol]

You mentioned this the other day and I thought about it a bit and you may just be correct

I have long held the philosophy of "there are few boring characters, only boring choices", and never applied it to huntsman

[modern plume]

The better people get as Huntsman in finding the Damsel, the better Minions therefore get in finding the Damsel. Therefore, the better the Huntsmans on average, the worse the situation for Good.
😛

[fast anchor]

I don't hate twice-per-game or narninian/patters huntsman but they feel fundamentally different in a way I can't quite articulate

[next marlin]

I've seen the TB games by the bad amne people and they're the kind of TB games my October answer was about I think

[ebon idol]

5. people should think of themselves as good or evil players first, and then their character. Obviously is fairly situational, and this more applies towards good players, as evil players roles are inherently warping in terms of playstyle. Spent roles, outsiders, sus good players are still good players and your nom and your vote (and dead vote) is incredibly influential. This is why spent role metas are bad (and other reasons), this is why self sacrificing is overvalued, and it's why I largely disagree with saying things like "x role is boring". I don't get bored with roles because even if I dont like the role I am more than my ability.

[vale oxide]

Still agree with this

[modern plume]

"Self sacrificing is overvalued"
Me, as Evil, regularly doing this:

https://tenor.com/view/kamie-catfish-tf-excuse-me-gif-26312767

I assume though you mean for the Good side

[ebon idol]

I think that was poorly worded, self sacrificing is great and knowing when to die is incredibly valuable, this was more in the "Im just x we can kill me" type stuff, so yeah, more slanted to the good sided

[modern plume]

It has gotten amusing though that it's a regular trick of mine to die as a Minion that sometimes I end up getting sus on me for dying at night, even when there's no plausible benefit for me to do.

But yeah, I understand what you meant and that it was meant for Good mainly and against senseless sacrifice.

And not strategic reasons

[next marlin]

Oh, this one keeps coming up -- the problem with 'bridging customs'/scripts pitched between TB and the intermediate bases isn't the premise, it's just that they're deceptively hard so most of them are terrible

Is it Objectively, In A Void™️ the case that moving to the intermediate bases is better? Sure, but that's not how most peoples' psychology works, and there's a real psychological impact for a lot of people from doing something less imposing in the meantime that means this is a type of script that should exist and be played and offered as an option

The problem is how to make such a script that works

We don't really have the characters for it and I think this is a huge problem for the intermediate bases and peoples' perceptions of them, because they're very complex scripts that a lot of people play or run without understanding them

[tacit fiber]

1. ||REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED||
2. Most “popular” teensies are actually just bad/unfun and people should play/make more teensies.
3. There is no modified TB that works.
4. 15p > 12p

(For number 2, NGJ, CT, OTI, OTR, esp LoD)

[fresh shard]

I don't know what most of these are

No Greater Joy I know of

But overall I agree: the only two Teensies I consistently enjoy are Race to the Bottom (because it makes the Doomsayer interesting) and Laissez un faire (feels like full Clocktower)

[modern plume]

OTI is "On Thin Ice" I think

[lean isle]

I recognize No Greatr Joy, Charmed Truly, On Thin Ice, On the River

Idk what LoD is

[fresh shard]

Ahh, I've not heard of the last three

[tacit fiber]

Lleech of Distrust is the one Proxi is missing

[fresh shard]

Ah yeah I'm not a fan of that one (especially because I've only seen it run with the rule that the Demon doesn't learn the Marionette, but even without that)

[tacit fiber]

I think that having Drunk and Marionette on a script where the whole point is finding the player who’s perma poisoned doesn’t work

a bunch of characters can just Not Find Out that they are poisoned

[modern plume]

Ouch, Teensy with Lleech + Drunk?

So with six players, you could have four of them spread nonsense? (Lleech, Minion, Drunk, Lleech host)

[modern plume]

Sees Pixie
Make that Five

Lleech, Minion, Drunk, Host, and Pixie all saying nonsense

At least Pixie would eventually stop

[tacit fiber]

bc of Sentinel on 5

you can actually having everyone saying bs on 5

[modern plume]

The Pixie would have see the Host at least

Because they can't see the Drunk

[tacit fiber]

this is true

[modern plume]

(I am assuming the ST isn't a jerk in this case and showing the Pixie themself)

[warped fog]

Sentinel Drunk </3

[tacit fiber]

yeah

[warped fog]

I've said this before in the form of a copypasta

but Heretic plays horribly with alt wincons

[tacit fiber]

you have

it’s true

[modern plume]

That's not a hot take, that's just pretty much true.

I will disagree with Saint though at least in one case; Atheist + Heretic can be done and be fine, so long as Town has a "let's immediately 'throw'" button and Saint works perfectly so Town doesn't have to wait for the endgame to win if they believe the Atheist & Heretic.

[warped fog]

Atheist / Heretic isn't good imo because #1 good has the "let's immediately throw" button of exeing the Storyteller if there's no Atheist claim #2 it makes how the good team is actually meant to win the game murky and that isn't good with Atheist

[modern plume]

For #1 Evil will have two options now for winning, pushing Atheist worlds with no Heretic, or pushing Heretic worlds absent any Heretic.

Giving each team a new win con that is risky for both groups is fine.

#2 Good wins by losing in Atheist + Heretic. That's why I said Saint is great with it

[fleet hedge]

My main problem with Sailor is when STs often allow it to drunk demons on N1, spent Assassins etc., because it should be an info role and a way to check the alignment of a player.

Pixie doesn't usually follow madness on LoD in my experience

It's more like a less powerful Washerwoman

[feral snow]

Hot take: everyone fucking sucks at this game. Whether it’s playing, storytelling, script building, homebrew, whatever, every single person is much worse at it than they think they are (myself included). I think very few people I know would actually be able to comfortably handle MHD when it comes out, or make a really polished script.

[karmic rose]

related lukewarm take: there is nothing wrong with a group of relatively new players looking at advanced characters/scripts and going "what the heck, let's try it" so long as they all understand they might be playing a game that's less balanced than usual

[tidal quiver]

Maybe this isn't a hot take but: Pacifist is great, and STs should run it like it's one of the strongest roles on BMR. I'd say save around half of the good players

[modern plume]

Zombuuls:

[tidal quiver]

Well everyone else is so miserable because it's a zombuul game which will take 3 hours, might as well let the demon have some fun too (I think playing as zombuul is interesting but can easily get boring b/c you can almost never decide kills)

[next marlin]

Run the days faster 😎

[honest tide]

I think virgin is an uninteresting character and I don’t like it on non-TB scripts

[fresh shard]

I think you have to have a very established group to do this. Enough that people can reasonably intuit that you have a good reason (like a goodsided setup) for doing this

My rule is "meta information can be really strong but give it to a level you're confident can be reasonably understood"

[honest tide]

I don’t think I’ve ever thought of sailor as a confirmation role. I’ve thought of it as soldier with the added benefit of not dying to execution with the downside of drunking people

Maybe sometimes I’d meta survival (mostly that the person I chose likely isn’t the demon if it’s after day 1) but that’s about it

[modern plume]

Soldier’s best power isn’t from their ability working but from it not working, since it becomes a poison detection

Especially in TB where it solo finds out either they’re the Drunk or they were poisoned which is valuable info

[karmic slate]

https://tenor.com/view/raccoon-jump-fail-gif-13203891

[minor pier]

make a really polished script
Hot take : making a really polished custom script is really, really hard, if not impossible ; and that's not fully the scriptmaker's fault. Mostly because there's only so much you can do with official characters, and fitting as many positive interactions on a script with 25 characters while dodging any bad interaction is crazyness. This is why homebrews exist : more work to make from the ground up, but you have control over all possible interactions.

[pseudo fulcrum]

Yes

[modern plume]

One of my takes: BMR is a high info script, most players are just bad at mechanical solving or don't try

It's a numbers game, every death demands an explanation, each of which adds more and more restrictions on the potential game state. Every false piece of info or 'wrong' event you get demands a source of poison or drunkenness. When I've played BMR as Good, I've been able to massively world build down to very few game states, with one game I remember I solved down to only one possible person being the Demon, and another game was solvable to Good having a complete winning strategy by the end.

(If the problem is players playing roles like Gambler, Gossip, and Chambermaid badly, every script is low-info when you use the roles badly!)

[fast anchor]

i don't think this is particularly hot, actually - if writing customs was easy we wouldn't see so many bad ones 🙈

I 100% agree with you here

[modern plume]

Going on the database, click on any random script on any day among the new ones and on average it's not a good script

[fast anchor]

okay, if you run Pacifist like a gigachad and explicitly against almanac guidance then yeah it's strong 😭 I do usually lean higher with "number of saves per game" but half is a lot compared to, like, 1-2

[barren zenith]

This is a cold-take lol

[minor pier]

Then again, Pacifists rarely live after 2 saves ^^'

[fast anchor]

that's fair

[cold veldt]

tbh I think that probably every good script (with the characters we have now) has likely already been made

[fast anchor]

tbf a Pacifist who gets one save and can correctly identify it's them is still really really strong

[next marlin]

Actually, outgrowth of this that I was thinking about: I refuse to believe the intermediate bases are the best way to introduce the concept of alignment change

[barren zenith]

I'm usually not a fan of ranking scripts objectively, but lots of scripts do have at least 1 highly problematic interaction, I agree.

[fast anchor]

okay that's a hot take

[modern plume]

Minuit a Fond la Caisse sits by the side aghast at this claim

[barren zenith]

Uhh, no

[next marlin]

Like, tb+ogre is not harder for a player just getting into new scripts to understand than "all of Fang Gu/Pit-Hag/Snake Charmer do a different thing"

[barren zenith]

I 100% disagree with that

[modern plume]

https://tenor.com/view/antm-j-alexander-oh-my-awkward-gif-7488824

[tacit fiber]

I severely disagree

[modern plume]

(Wait, PH doesn't change people's alignment?)

[next marlin]

I've played with a newbie fang gu who panicked and killed his minion because he didn't know which remaining players were outsiders and wanted at all costs to avoid jumping "so I don't turn good"

[next marlin]

Exactly

[modern plume]

Oh, different thing in how each one affects alignment

Fang Gu makes new Evil, Snake Charmer swaps alignment, PH simply doesn't

[cold veldt]

you’ve already made the script lol it exists

[modern plume]

Yes, but until it existed, nothing else explored its core game mechanic

And then after it was made, many others started building 'Minuit-likes'

[fast anchor]

both one quantum script did, but that's not quite the same

because the main focus was, well, quantum

[tacit fiber]

There are 1.3296464e+25 possible scripts in just ravenswood bluff

not counting Phobos

Surely we haven’t hit all the possibilities for good scripts

[modern plume]

Did you account for illegal combinations, like Choirboy with no King, or Huntsman with no Damsel?

[tacit fiber]

no

[barren zenith]

We should all collectively make an original script to disprove this

I'm sure we could

[modern plume]

Besides, ask @fast anchor about my script building and ideas I sent her.

There's plenty of space to explore

[fast anchor]

something something, cooks and broth

[barren zenith]

Axo, what are the script-building ideas?

I'm interested

[fast anchor]

mostly insane (in a positive way) and innovative in ways I never thought could be fun

[barren zenith]

Is that a script?

[fast anchor]

yet somehow this guy makes them look fun

[fast anchor]

...the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth", Dylan

im dying 😭😭😭

[next marlin]

🎵 it takes a lot to make a stew 🎵

[barren zenith]

Yeah, I've never heard of that saying

[cold veldt]

my statement is definitely not worded the best and I think that there can be plenty more “good” scripts but the stuff that all perfectly clicks together without any major flaws has most likely been done

I would love to hear some of the innovative stuff though

[modern plume]

I have lots of script ideas, and all of them are born of exploring interactions that are very unusual.

[fast anchor]

The only good custom script is spins wheel Chefs Deluxe 4

[modern plume]

Minuit a Fond la Caisse has a core of Vortox, Lleech, and Mastermind, with only the Demon being responsible for deaths in the night on the script. If someone is executed and killed, and the next night no one dies, it becomes a dangerous day where the town must decide carefully who to execute:

If it's a Mastermind day, Town needs to execute no one or an Evil player. But...
If it's a Lleech game as well, executing the prior executed player again loses for Good.
But executing anyone else risks losing for Good if a Good player is executed.
But refusing to execute is also risky, because it could just be a tricky Vortox sinking the kill.

[cold veldt]

yeah it’s cool

I remember when I made mind your step I was like “oh shit this rules hell yeah” and then I saw, “ah someone beat me to it”

[barren zenith]

New releases keep script-building creative and interesting, I'm a bit sad they stopped the monthly releases.

[modern plume]

Dullahan under the Willows is another script of mine with a main concept: Anyone can be the Vizier. Townsfolk, Outsider, Minion, or Demon. With the only two demons of Lleech and Lil'Monsta, and the existence of Boffin and Alchemist on the script, a Vizier could live to final 3 and could genuinely be the one Town must execute.

Removes a lot of the issues with Vizier for most players, with it recently played and winning OSA in #the-viziers-on-my-shoulder (and there were TWO Vizier announcements in that game)

[cold veldt]

there’s only so many unique concepts that can be made so if you have some fire cooking up, get that stuff burning

[modern plume]

I have quite a few scripts in the works, main two I want to start testing are called Fake Orchestra and Bell of Avici, where Fake Orchestra uses Minstrel, Xaan, and Boffin to create nights of mass poisoning, requiring solving when the nights of mass poisoning happen and the reason why, while Bell of Avici explores Boffin + Recluse and good reasons the Demon would appreciate the Recluse ability

I have lots of other scripts in the works, but until they're ready, don't wanna go into detail yet. xP

[fast anchor]

Quilava was the one who helped me realize just how busted boff-recluse is as an ability

there's some crazy stuff you can do

[cold veldt]

I’m aware of it with dreamer and ravenkeeper, real funny when you got goblin on script too

any especially wild stuff apart from that?

[modern plume]

Scarlet Woman + Vigormortis

[cold veldt]

okay elaborate?

[modern plume]

Vigormortis can kill themself, register as a Minion to themself, become an undead Demon still killing people while the game continues thanks to the living Vigormortis from the Scarlet Woman

[tacit fiber]

holy shit

[cold veldt]

okay

wow

[feral snow]

Ew fuck that lmao

[cold veldt]

that’s crazy shit

[lean isle]

Oh god

[modern plume]

[next marlin]

I recall mentioning this to you 😛

[modern plume]

Other weirdness:

Vortox can be preached; the Recluse ability is from the Boffin and so remains active, but the Vortox ability turns off; this means that the ST can turn off the Recluse ability at any point in the night order to restore the Vortox effect, letting some amount of TF get true info while the rest get false info.

Registering as a Minion, the Demon can kill whoever the Monk protects. They can also mess with Town Crier information by registering as a Minion for their checks. They can also get free extra bluffs from the Snitch.

[cold veldt]

ooh I like the snitch thing

[tacit fiber]

Vortox-Preacher feels unfun

[modern plume]

The Demon can't kill that night, for what it's worth, so Good still gets a signal.

Besides the two in the works I mentioned, I have at least five others in the works which have a core concept but just needs the right roles to fit around them. Minuit a Fond la Caisse and Dullahan under the WIllows are the only two main ones finished and played enough for me to be happy with them.

[sour harness]

I still agree with this

I like TB much more now that I'm no longer brainwashed by livevoice. I still like the other b3s much better tho

Like yeah it's still overrated

[sour harness]

BH steward and PG are all really bad design but I've talked about those takes a lot already

[dry sluice]

Clocktower is more fun (in person) with the variant rule that all private communication is forbidden.

[next marlin]

ok matron

[sour harness]

all??

That's a take

Limiting it makes perfect sense to me

Idk about all tho

[acoustic chasm]

what do you mean by private communication?

is standing up and whispering with someone in the middle of town square 'private'?

[dry sluice]

Players whispering to other players. Private communication with the ST is allowed of course.

[modern plume]

I have a big social anxiety disorder.
Playing anything live is very difficult for me, while text is actually playable for me.
This variant rule would make the game utterly unplayable for me, lol.

[acoustic chasm]

that's a burning hot take. can't agree with it

[dry sluice]

I respect that others have different opinions on what they find fun.

[modern plume]

It can't be fun for me if I literally can't play as a consequence, lol

[acoustic chasm]

What do you find fun about it?

[dry sluice]

You get to be a part of every conversation; that's the most important thing to me. And roles like Washerwoman have to think a little harder about whether to claim before/after their target. And Lunatic works.

[modern plume]

The poor Minions

No bluffs for you

[fleet hedge]

This is like the main thing for me that makes clocktower more fun than mafia

but each to their own

[acoustic chasm]

Bluffs are overrated in smaller games to be fair

[fleet hedge]

also anything higher than like 10 players no-one will get to speak very much

[next marlin]

This is one of the things I turn over in my head when I think about whether I'd actually find in-person play "not excruciating"

I really dislike coordination being nontrivial

[acoustic chasm]

I think having 1 on 1 conversations with players, and watching how others conduct conversation with others, let you get a better read on people

And it can allow you to do things like role swaps. If you want, you can be a menace to evil coordination in a in person game and just float around catching tidbits of many converstaions at once

It's quite mean to do on a discord call because there is no warning, and that is VERY fair

But in person its fair game.

Well it sure is an opinion to have Linus. I don't think it is correct but that's what this prompt is for

[acoustic chasm]

As for this

Yeah, in smaller games, you really can just get away with claiming stuff out of the blue

[dry sluice]

Opinions can't be correct! I think it's true for me, and many in my playgroup, but I'm sure it's not true for most of y'all. Especially those used to playing online.

[acoustic chasm]

Fair. I don't think this opinion comes from playing online though

I do think online play has made private chats more private, but I try to ask players not to stray too far from the circle

Do players often lie in your games?

[dry sluice]

Alllllll the time. It's a vital part of Clocktower for me that good players are encouraged to lie.

I mean otherwise the demon (and poisoner, etc) will snipe the optimal targets every night.

[acoustic chasm]

That is interesting. I'd have thought that the sit in circle approach would encourage more truthfulness because you can catch out minions

But you are gambling on a double claim

[dry sluice]

Lying can still help catch minions: if you're the Empath claiming Washerwoman then a minion who tries to slide into an Empath bluff gets caught. But it also gives some plausible deniability for the minion to back away, of course. And especially in smaller games, executing the demon is more important than executing people in double claims.

Demons occasionally get into double claims as a mind game to look "minion-y". I'm curious if that pattern ever happens online where all the minions have bluffs all the time

(Even in in-person games with private communication allowed, I don't see demons often giving bluffs to minions early on. It's risky.)

[next marlin]

It does

(and people don't get perfect coordination online either, it's not rare to be unable to talk to at least one minion d1)

[honest tide]

I like coordination being somewhat difficult and/or telegraphed but not being able to do private chats would feel weird to me I think

That being said the one game of matron I played online I really liked so idk

[acoustic chasm]

i think its cool that BOTC has kept its features even if there aren't any private convos

But also I like that private convos can mean you can keep secrets and only tell a select few people

[honest tide]

That being said I’m pretty sure matron allows for whispering between neighbors

[karmic rose]

SnV coded

[cyan reef]

the best part about this take is how much I think I've never ever seen this to be true 😉

[next marlin]

We were asked for hottest takes :)

[karmic rose]

I wanna play an IRL matron game so badly

[cyan reef]

right...hot takes are often hot because they're unpopular, and they're often unpopular for not being true 😉

idk if I have any hot takes per se...I have several that a lot of people wouldn't care for, lol, but then tons of other people do, so eh

maybe pointing out how 3 for 3s are mostly useless and adds very little to the game counts as a hot take

[cold veldt]

i've played irl a few times at a place where we get to have private chats and stuff, and an interesting thing i've noticed is that when i played with more experienced players, the day phase was almost exclusively 1-on-1 private chats, meanwhile when i last played it was basically all new players and they mostly talked in groups, while there were only ever a few proper 1-on-1 private chats (at least that i participated in lol)

i don't have any conclusion that i've drawn from it, but i find it interesting none-the-less. both styles of chat i found myself enjoying a lot

[cyan reef]

there's a lot of variation with how the game is play in person nowadays, a lot of it stemming from mimicing online play

every game I've ran, both for new players and experienced players, involve people getting up and moving around to chat

I hesitate to call them "private chats" because they're still around everyone else, usually there's sometimes enough space to get a bit away from others but they're still fully viewable

[karmic rose]

I'm curious

[cold veldt]

i'd like to play more on the official app but its kinda scary on there 😧

[next marlin]

this is precisely how I feel about livevoice

[gray ridge]

Why

[barren zenith]

Why so?

[gray ridge]

I havent played in 2 months

🔥

[next marlin]

I need to start STing on the app again 👀

[modern plume]

Which roles would be either very funny or very inappropriate to attempt Interpretive dance for?

Golem.... Virgin... Cannibal....

[gray ridge]

Harlot

[next marlin]

also waffles fire react
if I made another app scheduled would you sign up 👀

[cold veldt]

well i don't know any of the regular offical app public lobby people so its scary, new people scary sometimes i guess

[cyan reef]

there's several great communities that play via the app

[cold veldt]

yeah

[cyan reef]

mainly I think of Grim Scenarios and The Grimoire, but there are others of course

[cold veldt]

when i say the official app scares me its mostly the public lobby stuff

[cyan reef]

you can come to Hard Claim too but most of the games there are my streamed games, lol, but someone runs Wednesday night games too

[cyan reef]

public games are generally worth avoiding

(your mileage may vary)

[next marlin]

most of the people there are pretty nice, I find in practice that there are no truly "public" botc groups because the community of people who regularly play botc is just really small

[karmic rose]

amazingly, public games are still playable, which I would not say about roll20 or anything of the sort

[next marlin]

such that you quickly learn to recognize regulars in even the largest public-facing communities (app lobbies and discord livevoice)

[karmic rose]

they won't be as good but c'est la vie

[next marlin]

you also learn to recognize which games not to play lol but so it goes

[barren zenith]

Is livevoice toxic or something?

[cyan reef]

I know at least one person who plays in public games specifically because they like experiencing the jankiness that comes with it, almost like purposefully getting a comparison

[next marlin]

livevoice seems a bit more...forward?...than any other major botc platform

I dwelled over that term

it's the wrong term

[cold veldt]

which of those servers you listed play custom scripts the most? i might consider joining some 👀

[next marlin]

but I can't think of one that lacks negative valence

(and I'm not intending to use one that does)

[ebon idol]

I’ve been playing in grim scenarios more and the community is simply great, I don’t know how much they play customs but there are plenty of scheduled games for customs

[cyan reef]

probably both, both are great communities with high standards but do it in very different ways

Grim Scenarios doesn't allow games to be posted that are open to anyone outside of Grim Scenarios, which is great for maintaining the rules

The Grimoire has both regular official events and people can post their own

I think maybe overall you'll find more games at The Grimoire? but there's also nothing saying you can't join both, and as I said, I personally highly recommend both

[pure meadow]

Don’t call me out for lurking in here >:(

[next marlin]

but would you 👀

[pure meadow]

No, app is scary

[next marlin]

I came to botc through The Grimoire, it has plenty of nice people (which overlaps with the public lobbies a decent amount, again because the community of people who regularly play botc is tiny) and would also agree it's cool
I drifted away from it over time because I find the demands of STing usually are more accessible for me than the demands of playing/that I'm more often in a place where I can comfortably do the former than the latter, so it's easier for me to regularly participate in groups where I can run games whenever than ones where I usually play someone else's games, but I've thought lately about popping back in there

[cyan reef]

yeah, I don't have much time myself to jump into games in other places other than my own games, so that's understandable

[tidal quiver]

I feel like when the bag is built well, even in fairly high player games, there aren't that many executions to make the almanac and my version so wildly different. I'm avocating for like one more save than before

[ivory ridge]

👀 can you elaborate?

[feral snow]

That’s so valid

I fucking hate 3 for 3’s

It means nothing

Either claim to me or don’t

It’s extra bad when they say 3 roles and then they’re actually none of them

What was the point

I’m not gonna remember it

Nobody else is gonna remember it

You’re not actively mad about anything

[lean isle]

So based

[foggy grotto]

REAL

all they do is help evil which have bluffs

[barren zenith]

They're useful to avoid DCs as good and to not give much info to evil?

[feral snow]

then lie or say you don't want to claim

[ebon idol]

A thing about 3f3s is that imo it’s much easier for evil to narrow your side down then a good player, there’s just more role obfuscation towards good than there is evil

[feral snow]

don't say "oh i'm one of these 6 roles"

I don't care

I will forget

[foggy grotto]

and it gives good players virtually no info

i will not do 3s with people

[feral snow]

"I told you my role already" no you said you're one of 3 and it's not possible for you to be any of them right now, start talking

[foggy grotto]

if they ask for 3s i either ask for 2s or leave the chat lol

[barren zenith]

Like, I get you don't learn much, but getting someone's hard claim they've just lied about isn't useful either. Also, people can just play how they want to 🤷

[ebon idol]

Also hardclaims are just genuinely more fun imo, it tends to create more interesting social and play patterns

[feral snow]

but then why give 3 at all

there's no point

[ebon idol]

People can play how they want it doesn’t stop me from believing it’s unfun play

[feral snow]

I can't world build off of three's

[hollow oasis]

I use 3s

[feral snow]

it makes the first few days meaningless

[hollow oasis]

On customs only

Because I effectively do a 2 because I can’t bluff the 3rd

[sour harness]

People can give me 3s but I'm gonna pretty please ask for a hard claim or at least a 2 and I'm almost always gonna give a 1

[ebon idol]

3f3s in text are less bad imo just because as good you can recall it and sift through, but essentially you’re just delaying getting their claim, or potentially just having them be in limbo area

Still don’t like them though

[next marlin]

I've come to the compromise position that I hate 3s and also hate hardclaiming 🔥

Actually I kind of just don't like claiming in general at this point because there's nothing I can do that isn't severely damaging to one of my alignments

[sour harness]

This is why you give a hard claim and lie 60% of the time you're good

[ebon idol]

Personally I choose to stare at someone and psychically beam them my role

[hollow oasis]

Give 2s?

[next marlin]

Which I hate

I don't really enjoy lying if I'm sincerely playing for good

[hollow oasis]

I like 3s in moderation

2 3s? Fine

5 3s? No

[next marlin]

And hardclaims being outright lies makes them about as useful as 3s, ie not

[sour harness]

[cyan reef]

looks like others covered this already (way more than I was expecting), but yeah, it's not that they're not information at all, but there just isn't a ton useful out of them...the goal of the game is for people to chat and share info, with some good players having incentives to lie (this is explained directly in the Storyteller intro read to new players)

[ebon idol]

Lies are still useful information idk lol

[acoustic chasm]

That is something I disagree with

[ebon idol]

They tell a story

3f3 lies are a large jumble though

Hardclaim lies you can deduct reasoning and paint a picture of why players would do something

[hollow oasis]

The question is “why are you lying”

[next marlin]

Yeah I'm on like, the opposite end of this spectrum to you

[cyan reef]

this was discussed on another server recently, and there's nuance to giving a truthful hard claim or a lie for a hard claim

[vale oxide]

I still agree with this aswell

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[next marlin]

The balancing factor is that sincerely playing for good is doing a ton of weight even if I draw a blue token

[hollow oasis]

3s can work if you have like, 3s that overlap with other 3s

[cyan reef]

a lie can give useful information while also obfuscating things for evil

[hollow oasis]

And then get 2 hardclaims and go from there

[acoustic chasm]

I don't really know what sincerly playing for good means to y

you

[hollow oasis]

Some scripts need good to lie

[acoustic chasm]

I can pretend to be the slayer and slayer shot confirms someone to get social information

[cyan reef]

though the average hard claim, IMO, should be truthful, or have some element of truth to it, or be redacted not too far into the game

[hollow oasis]

Like being the plague doctor

[next marlin]

"is it plausible for me to end this game as evil somehow"

If yes, I hedge my bets pretty heavily until I conclude I won't

[acoustic chasm]

In most scripts, the answer is no

[cyan reef]

so yeah, 3 for 3s just aren't overall very useful for the game...they also make madnes kind of pointless

[hollow oasis]

Demonsbanes exist

[acoustic chasm]

I am not talking to you Nerdguy

[hollow oasis]

Mb

[acoustic chasm]

In most scripts, the answer is no

[cyan reef]

madness is about misinformation, and a 3 for 3 with madness in mind is barely putting out any misinformation in the same way that a truthful 3 for 3 is barely putting out any information

[next marlin]

not coincidentally I disproportionately play scripts where it's yes

[hollow oasis]

3 for 3’s are the

“Fuck I guess I need to say smth d1”

[acoustic chasm]

In almost all scripts, good need to lie sometimes

[hollow oasis]

It’s kinda like small talk

And then you go back later

[acoustic chasm]

I still would prefer a 3 over no chat at all

[ebon idol]

There’s not a single character that does not have situations where lying is beneficial

[acoustic chasm]

And you can still get social reads

[ebon idol]

It’s kind of the point, actually, imo

[acoustic chasm]

BOTC is great because of lying

[hollow oasis]

Athiest

[cyan reef]

I think it's good for all, both good and evil, to just claim something day way, then have reasons to back into something else (the truth if you're good, something else if you're evil)

it's more or less what the game expects

[ebon idol]

I lie as atheist because it creates for more interesting and fun games imo

[hollow oasis]

It’s not beneficial

[acoustic chasm]

I don't want to out athiest because I'm not sure if I'm the Drunk, and if evil claim it then I know I am the drunk

[ebon idol]

Interesting and fun is beneficial lol

[hollow oasis]

to win

[cyan reef]

last night I drew the Choirboy token, but was told I was the Wizard because Lord of Typhon

[hollow oasis]

Lol

[supple dirge]

If there's a drunk on the script you can keep quite and see if an evil player will claim atheist

[acoustic chasm]

There's a strategically beneficial chance

[cyan reef]

do what did I bluff? Philosopher

[hollow oasis]

There can be 2 athiests

[acoustic chasm]

But yes doing stuff because it makes a game where players have more fun is 10/10 reason

[cyan reef]

was I double claiming someone? was it free and open to take? I didn't know, lol

[next marlin]

The atheist rulebreak putting multiple atheists in play:

[cyan reef]

turned out, I was double claiming my Demon, lol

[hollow oasis]

Yeah it’s just that there can be 2

[cyan reef]

but that was okay because it was a Heretic game 😉

[supple dirge]

That also gives you info.

[acoustic chasm]

Sure Nerdguy

But then socials come into play

[ebon idol]

I play for myself and my group to have fun, if “because it’s interesting and fun” isn’t good reasoning then I don’t know what to tell you

[hollow oasis]

You didn’t need to lie to do that

[cyan reef]

and if it wasn't a Heretic game, well, I was making myself look like a Goblin after a while

[acoustic chasm]

An evil player lying that they are an athiest who then finds out there is a person with an athiest token might act differently to an actual athiest

[cyan reef]

Minions exist to cover for a Demon anyway, so blind claiming day 1 is fine

also, run the games more quickly so good have less time to sort through things

[hollow oasis]

I mean in either situation they kinda have to go “oh there’s 2 of us, cool”

[acoustic chasm]

No they don't?

[hollow oasis]

It’s absurdly hard to back out of Athiest

[acoustic chasm]

It can go many ways

They might say 'oh maybe I'm the drunk and the new claim is evil'

[sour harness]

Clearly lol

[acoustic chasm]

They might go 'Let's get us both executed to prove it is'

They might go 'haha 2 athiests'

Like

[next marlin]

This is why I'm always so fascinated that your lens for snv is "it's the lying script"

[acoustic chasm]

I agree that's a way to deal with it Nerdguy

[hollow oasis]

TB is the lying script, anyway

[sour harness]

Well that's mostly as evil tbf

[next marlin]

I mean it is the lying script but that's because it's the script where it's easiest to start good and end evil

[acoustic chasm]

But you framed it as the only way for them to react

[ebon idol]

Regardless I think the point of “there is always a reason for a character to lie” is always true because imo lying and creating interesting situations and trying to better my position and my teams position is what I play this game for.

You may not want to lie as often as I do, it doesn’t mean there’s no reason, it just means you don’t think that reason is enough

[hollow oasis]

Currently, that’s been the only reaction I’ve ever seen

[supple dirge]

'I'm not the atheist, I'm just the magician tyring to get any other evil players to claim to me' that's a fun way to back out of an atheist claim.

[hollow oasis]

This is fair

[acoustic chasm]

And even then going 'oh there's 2 of us', maybe a minion bluffing athiest just seems wrong. Maybe they get stressed. Maybe they are too perky

[supple dirge]

Or just 'I was trying to be suspicious so the demon didn't kill me'

[acoustic chasm]

Like

I am just saying that there are reasons, even as the athiest

That you might lie

And that lying as good is present on almost every script

[hollow oasis]

I mean, that can also be done by not claiming publicly immediately

And waiting till noms

[acoustic chasm]

sure

[hollow oasis]

And just going to 3’s like “I’m the atheist who’s waiting a bit”

[acoustic chasm]

but you do agree that's not the only way to play it

no

i'm putting words into your mouth

That si a valid way to play it

I just think it's not the only way

And... that this convo is... well i think there are better things to talk about

[hollow oasis]

also, some atheist scripts just don’t have drunk, but that’s a different story

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[hollow oasis]

(Atheist is cooler with Lleech)

Lleech Athiest is a Great Script combo, do it more

[modern plume]

(Add Vizier too for extra fun)

[hollow oasis]

Vizier has an ability that an atheist can use

Which kinda helps their cause

[sour harness]

Vizier needs atheist to not be actively a thrall :)

And alch

[hollow oasis]

True

[modern plume]

Not if they might be a Demon with Boffin-Alchemist-Vizier

[hollow oasis]

Vizier needs quadjank

[modern plume]

Can freely deny whenever I'd like.

[hollow oasis]

Anyway

[next marlin]

isn't vizier's winrate in quadjank pretty close to its overall winrate

[hollow oasis]

What

[sour harness]

And at least one of preacher courtier boffin Heretic

[next marlin]

quadjank is pretty goodsided last it was laid out

[modern plume]

You'd like my Dullahan under the Willows script

[sour harness]

No idea, lemme go through some games and see

[hollow oasis]

Anyway, I need to go back to calculating the bits of entropy for Vat Dweller MHD Truthers’ homebrew character

[modern plume]

That's not even a hard calculation, what's taking so long?-

[acoustic chasm]

gosh

[hollow oasis]

It’s a 2d possibility space

[modern plume]

Yeah?

[acoustic chasm]

i'm gonna dislike the day when homebrew character critique is just

'Look this idea has been done before, its entropy is simply too high'

[hollow oasis]

Note that its only not tedious with binary roles

[sour harness]

Update: I'm a coward and never put viz in. I have one vizier game logged and good won but it was also engineered out of existence immediately

This also includes games played tho so it's not just my fault

[next marlin]

Thrall moment

[sour harness]

Yeah ok

[modern plume]

You should run my script of Dullahan. Makes Vizier very interesting

[next marlin]

Dullahan is pretty near full!quadjank, they're the same premise in this respect

[karmic rose]

After my first chat, I much prefer giving out a few roles that are being hard claimed over either hard claiming or 3f3s. "I've heard of an innkeeper looking for good protection targets, a gossip hoping for cover, and a pacifist" is my pretty typical way of claiming

[sour harness]

I SHOULD

[pure meadow]

Yeah when I played dullahan it felt like it was quadjank if quadjank was an actual script

[sour harness]

There are at least 4 janklikes out there 👀

[next marlin]

quadjank but not horrific in longtext

[next marlin]

I'm unsure that vasmr is a janklike

[sour harness]

Good point

3 janklikes then

[pure meadow]

Vasmr is very different gameplay wise

[sour harness]

Vasmr is jank adjacent

[next marlin]

I'm trying to decide what script on the snvlike alignment chart is the vasmr parallel

[pure meadow]

Though I’ve only played vasmr once and I was the zombuul who claimed minion vizier so I’m not sure how regular of a perspective I can have on vasmr

[next marlin]

from scripts on this chart:
Quadjank : SnV :: VASMR : ?

[sour harness]

I should make a full alignment chart for janklikes

[next marlin]

-# Clockwork Cyborg has a higher-info town than Pearly Gates I think but that aside

[modern plume]

Minuit a Fond la Caisse - Good Team Purist, Evil Team Rebel.

[ebon idol]

Pearly gates has no town info because it’s all in the blender anyways

[barren zenith]

Final nail would probably be:
Evil team - Neutral
Good team - Purist?

[next marlin]

I think I diverge from enough of the placements on here to struggle putting it but I don't actually think Final Nail is very snvlike for a highish-info script

Arguably it's not even that high-info anymore

[barren zenith]

Yeah

It'd probably be neutral

I'm not sure if I want marionette on there though

But there's nothing to replace it with

😭

[next marlin]

The game I ran of it the whole good team on the opposite half of the grim to the demon were marionette paranoid and executed the demon by accidental process of elimination 🔥

[barren zenith]

Lol

[tacit fiber]

I agree. My psychology for claiming is “I will lie in non Hardclaims, oh you want a 3? Sure I’ll lie in a 3 to you!”

[tidal quiver]

I am either strongly opposed to 3f3s, undecided, or love them. I'm sure you know exactly what I mean, fellow good player!

[fast anchor]

I wonder who made that one

[next marlin]

mystery for the ages

[ivory ridge]

have you try being better?

[next marlin]

Have you tried not being pointed at after the boomdandy goes off

[flat lintel]

preach, 15 player games make no sense

[fast anchor]

truth nuke

drag him vati

[flat lintel]

lowk most of these are not hot takes imo

[next marlin]

I don't disagree

I try to go for my actually unpopular opinions when this question rolls around but then I remember why not to

[fast anchor]

well now I want to know the actual unpopular opinions

[flat lintel]

can u dm me it vati

[next marlin]

I'd say I did this time

Or at least some of them

It's just that if you post actually unpopular opinions then the resulting "you're wrong" is really unfun to deal with

[tidal quiver]

I completely agree (I am actually wrong)

[next marlin]

but at least no one noticed I'm not religiously opposed to bridging customs

[tidal quiver]

The real hottest take is that ||One Night Ultimate Werewolf is better||

[coarse fern]

I like ONUW ☹️

[flat lintel]

ig my hot take would be is that people are less expecting of different playstyles than they say they are

if u want my spicy hot take, dm me

im not getting jumped in a public channel tho