secret thing

[foggy grotto]

oddest CC picks i’ve seen

as in minion type

but to each their own

[ivory ridge]

i mean if we're taking cc pick

[gusty bear]

widow picks are for cowards and needing scarlet woman's is a skill issue

[ivory ridge]

what the fuck does cc look like again

[zenith lotus]

you tell us

[coarse fern]

I think widow is by far the most common pick

[zenith lotus]

then we can make canadian clockwork cyborg

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/grrr-bambi-cute-angry-gif-13414190

[coarse fern]

On CC

[gusty bear]

widow is the most common pick

[coarse fern]

That I’ve seen anyway

[gusty bear]

all of those people are cowards

[ivory ridge]

oh isn't cc

widow godfather sw

cere

witch?

[gusty bear]

yes

[coarse fern]

Yup

[ivory ridge]

ok then if we're taking vati hystrex and axo

[gusty bear]

you can pick anyone in this thread

[ivory ridge]

vati witch, hystrex sw and axo godfather is the only acceptable outcome i think

i love torturing people

[foggy grotto]

widow is gambling if damsel is in play

but scarlet is great

you can just make a lot crazier of plays as the kazali

[coarse fern]

Just pick the damsel

[ivory ridge]

i do think witch widow gf has the potential to be the worst combo at 3 minions though

unless...?

actually

witch cere gf 🔥

you speedrun your way through death

[modern plume]

Widow Cere GF

Tell the Cere all the outsiders, make them only mad as Townsfolk.

[coarse fern]

Scarlet / cere / gf

[ivory ridge]

no guys we're trying to make the worst possible 3 minions combo here smh

[coarse fern]

Scarlet bc I will die, cere bc fun, gf bc no one ever picks gf

[modern plume]

Baron Xaan[1] Godfather

[ivory ridge]

anyway vati witch, hystrex gf, axol cere is actually my final pick if i have to pick between the 3 of these spammer chatter

[modern plume]

Just get in each other's way or make each other kinda pointless

[hollow oasis]

||Fanzazz||

[fast anchor]

I feel like you'd be good at stirring shit with a grim

[modern plume]

Like I did that one time with trying to Marionette you? 😛

[fast anchor]

I won that game so it worked out

[modern plume]

You didn't know you were Good till you won

[fast anchor]

When you pushed against killing Dee the gears started turning

or whoever the demon was

[modern plume]

It was Dee, yes

Also, during the game I was trying to get the Mutant to out xP

[fast anchor]

:p

anyway, yeah, Marionette script, I expect you to cook 😌

[modern plume]

I know I've made fake Grims to convince people of worlds as needed, but that's a bit of a tall order, lol. A 3 Minion game is a lot of people

[foggy grotto]

#event-listings message

[sour harness]

Yoooo

Wait I can't make that 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

[next marlin]

We'll just have to drag you to it

[sour harness]

I mean look

My Sundays are incredibly busy

I might be able to figure out a way to have my computer on me at that time

And uhhh I can eat during the game maybe????

But even if I get all that right, I absolutely can't commit more than 90 minutes

Despite it starting at the closest thing to an open window of time for me

[hollow oasis]

It has to be the 10 kill day game

[foggy grotto]

there will undoubtedly be more chances hystrex

[sour harness]

🔥

[sharp violet]

2/22: What’s your most memorable experience with a Fabled?

[honest tide]

It was Buddhist with all experienced players. We did charades.

[karmic rose]

Hm, "most memorable" is unfortunately any time I've needed to explain hell's librarian

[next marlin]

Angel-protected Gunslinger who eventually got barberswapped with the Cerenovus

[dense hound]

I pulled Golem and put it in all my three for threes and when I came back to town square there was a hunt for my head because it was base 0 outsiders and nothing on script would add one so people thought I was lying

...They only noticed the sentinel after I punched

[ivory ridge]

the first time I played duchess

[modern plume]

The Sentinel traded a townsfolk for a mislabelled townsfolk I see

[ivory ridge]

then I realized it's a useless fabled

😭

duchess literally do nothing it's insane

do not take the visiting bait

you will be framed as evil

[pseudo fulcrum]

I registered the Spy as good to the Doomsayer in Race to the Bottom to kill them
The Vortox then Doomsayed leaving me with no choice but to kill them with their own Doomsay

[next marlin]

Least goodsided rttb

[young sonnet]

Vati exposing that they play way too much Clocktower?

[next marlin]

sooth how much did you backread

[young sonnet]

Don't worry about it

I'm trying to find Quilava's stance on running High Priestess that you were referring to

[next marlin]

it's in the longtext channels

[zenith lotus]

specifically #text-game-general

[young sonnet]

Fuck

I gotta change my roles for that

[honest tide]

Ok I just read that hp document and somehow it’s less specific than the “idk it’s whatever you want it to be” that tpi gives

Like specifically gives contradictory advise. “Give them someone who the town is going to incorrectly kill” and “Give them someone building false info because they’re evil” are entirely unhelpful

Sorry I went down the HP discussion rabbit hole

[young sonnet]

From what I gather it was written in a "heat of the moment" kind of thing, so it's not rhetorically the best

[modern plume]

It's not just the inherent contradictions within the arguments; some of the statements and claims are vacuous

[young sonnet]

Like what?

[modern plume]

"Good players are presumed to share their information until proven otherwise. "

[young sonnet]

💀

[modern plume]

This is meaningless. It equivalently means "People share their information unless they don't"

If the intent is that we ought to assume everyone will share everything... No?

[next marlin]

Yeah there's an assumption running through a lot of hp discourse that people are far more forward with info and in particular with groundbreaking info than I observe in real games

[young sonnet]

To be fair though Vati

[next marlin]

I've seen a PM guess correctly and never out it because they thought the demon had good vibes and "didn't want them to be a frame"

[young sonnet]

In online games people just be hiding that they got snake charmed until the final day just for shits and giggles from what I've heard

[modern plume]

Another odd contradiction.

Principle 2: "Games are fun when the good team comes together to put together strands of information from different players to find a solve"

But then they list a game as terrible because... Good team comes together with strands of information from four different players

It is literally listed as an example of a not fun game within the document, when this explicitly contradicts the very principle they wish for us to accept at the very beginning

[next marlin]

Yeah I've found from livetext that the level of "f3 round robin dumps 5 days of dreamer info that rewrite every single fundamental assumption everyone's made all game and come from nowhere" that's normal on the app is not normal everywhere

[fast anchor]

i might be misremembering the doc, but isn't the game they list a "the high priestess metaconfirms the solve with 0 evil counterplay" game?

[next marlin]

It is, but I think there's a middle ground between "doing that" and "pretty much everything being a valid reason"

[modern plume]

I have a big issue with the '0 evil counterplay' argument when nothing of the context is provided; what roles are on this script, what could Evil claim, is Vortox on the script and an explanation, Goblin or Saint for protection?

However, that doesn't change the fundamental problem with the argument as presented; the author directly and explicitely asserts games are fun when Good team comes together, but their then proposed argument later against the High Priestess directly contradictions this principle

This is a Kettle Argument

It is inherently fallacious

[fast anchor]

I'd argue that game isn't the good team coming together though

It's the good team playing "follow-the-HP"

[modern plume]

I can demonstrate it is though: Change the HP for a Saint.

Nothing changes

Good is already stomping

The Seamstress checked the Steward ping against the Scarlet Woman

Ravenkeeper died and checked the Demon

[fast anchor]

the ravenkeeper is way more frameable without the HP as metaconfirmation there

[modern plume]

Four players come together, the Steward checked Saint, Steward, Ravenkeeper, and Seamstress have what they need to go against the Evil Team. The problem with the document is that it lays the blame on the last event in the sequence, rather than the totality of events

That's just undue blame

[fast anchor]

Same with the Seamstress and Steward - if there isn't a Vortox on script (or there's a Dreamer disproving it in play), you can individually frame more than with the High Priestess saying "all of these players are good"

[next marlin]

Realistically: wouldn't other forms of HP very often send to an evil nightkill claiming this anyway?

This is the catch I see in "HP for all reasons and none"

[modern plume]

If there isn't a Vortox is exactly one of the problems as well with this counter example as I brought up

[next marlin]

Yes, you can try get a read, but that read is going to be wrong a lot of the time, especially with no rudder

[modern plume]

It never tells us the context at all

[next marlin]

And evil can thus pretty easily go "you saw the [relevant dark triad kill]"

[modern plume]

It only gives the barest bones possible, but the tells us nothing whatsoever of what tools Evil does even have to begin with

You can even see it with the Demon + Minion type, reduced to the barest possible to have no inherent other abilities for this specific scenario

Kazali, which does nothing else but kill after set up

Scarlet Woman, which does nothing until the Demon dies

[fast anchor]

it depends - will that conversation happen otherwise? will seriously socially reading that player be useful? Unless it's a player I personally know will sit on it and tell absolutely nobody until like f5 I'm probably not sending a HP there

That conversation will likely be less useful to the High Priestess than others on the board

[modern plume]

We're suppose to take as conclusion that the HP is to blame, but at the exact same time, the scenario builds an immensely lucky Good Team, a very mechanically weak Evil Team, and zero context to the wider play environment

Why should my focus be on the HP over any of these other three factors?

This is just misattributed blame

Especially when the very core principles we're meant to accept explicitly would label this game as fun in the first place

[next marlin]

It's also funny because minions in kazali games always get read as the good half of the seam no

[modern plume]

It's a poorly constructed argument that fails to demonstrate any reasonable argument for blaming the HP in the first place, with a specific set of circumstances that goes against the very principles they argued for in the beginning

[minor pier]

All I'm hearing right now is that you feel the specific example given didn't fit the point ; but that doesn't undermine the point itself, aka HP can polarize the game too much by removing plausible doubt around information if you run it that way.

Whereas running it as a "whisper enabler" (instead of an "info detector") sounds way more interesting, and easier to fit on scripts, as long as your players know about it.

[modern plume]

It does undermine its own point; if one's argument for why something is bad is inherently self-contradictory, it undermines the very basis for belief in the position in the first place.

The only reason to utilize Kettle logic is because no argument you have is of good enough quality on its own.

(For those wondering what Kettle logic is, it's a term referring to any combination of arguments in support of a conclusion which are mutually contradictory but are pushed as if each of them were legitimately sound. The typical example of 'Kettle Logic' is the case of a neighbor borrowing your kettle and returning it damaged, and when asked about the damage they answer "I never borrowed your kettle, and I returned it undamaged, and besides it was already damaged when you gave it to me" )

[minor pier]

Sounds like you're getting lost in the philosophical sauce to me. My argument can be summed up in my two sentences above, and you're free to disagree and run your games differently - so is anyone else, for that matter ^^'

I don't see why it has to get more complicated than that x)

[honest tide]

You say this but I played a game of tb yesterday where I didn’t come out with undertaker info until f3

[modern plume]

I really disagree with running it that way as interesting; not only do I find it uninteresting, I'd hard avoid the High Priestess if they wanted to talk to me if that were how it were run.

If I were that High Priestess as well, I'd hard avoid talking to my pings

[ivory ridge]

LETS GOOOOOOOO

[fast anchor]

it definitely happens but it's definitely not the norm

[ivory ridge]

i fucking called it

anyway gimme a min lemme catch up

[modern plume]

Because I would not want to impart such doubt and anxiety to them, because if their information was legitimate and of good quality, by the design of this alt HP, I wouldn't have been sent to themn

[ivory ridge]

sorry i just saw that and i felt so validating

😭

[modern plume]

It means the HP invalidates and puts doubt on whatever you're doing if they visit you

That is a miserable gameplay experience

As someone with social anxiety, HARD PASS

[minor pier]

Not really ; it just means info has the same priority as about anything else in the game, and that HP can get non-info roles for various reasons even if other roles received valid info that night.

[modern plume]

Yeah, the principle is just a tautology. You can't disagree with it because it's vacuous and devoid of any meaning.

It's trivially true, players either share their info or they don't

[minor pier]

What matters with HP is the chat happening, by definition.

[modern plume]

The HP already could get non-info roles prior with the type that is disagreed with by the document

So that's a non-starter

Minions for example are great for being sent to on the first day

[honest tide]

When I run HP I do it like 40% info 60% player vibe/game perspective because I think it’s still in line with how it’s meant to encourage conversation without adding the issue of the super game breaking info (unless it’s really late game then I will)

It’s more a heuristic and is game dependent but it’s how I try to run it

[modern plume]

Fundamentally, the type of HP that is argued by the document is a 'Speaker' HP, a Prophet, one that places the fundamental importance of the conversation not on the ping but on the HP, and puts a demand and expectation upon the ping to do as the HP and the ST want with no clue whatsoever as to what is even wanted

I completely disagree with such an HP, and prefer the 'Listener' HP

[minor pier]

Except the risk of meeting a HP run as "learn the player that got the most important true info that night" is way higher than the opposite, so reminding that this isn't how the role is written matters a great deal. It's up to the ST to determine if the player getting said info would out it or not, and if they should share it that day or not, and that is wholly contextual.

[modern plume]

The purpose of the Listener HP isn't to force conversations or play this game of signs with the ST, trying to mind read people; it's to give someone a person who will listen to them, and amplify their voice

I really hate the Speaker HP, because, in short, it's incredibly selfish

It will never be sent to the person who has the big moment themself

[minor pier]

But the thing is, if you don't have the chat with the pinged player, you're basically saying 'I want to meta why I got that ping without doing the thing the ping told me to do'. That's absurd.

So having the chat should be the thing to do, no matter what.

Deciding if you should meta it or not comes after

[fast anchor]

I haven't fully read all of this so apologies if I'm taking this out of context but

The purpose of the Listener HP isn't to force conversations

that's what the High Priestess was explicitly designed to do, though? Andrew Nathenson said this himself. It feels counter to the intent of the character to not talk to your pings - and you're allowed to dislike that, to be clear - but it's not what I personally find fun

[modern plume]

No it isn't, I find the opposite absurd.

If the Listener HP can't figure out in the moment why it was important to figure out why they should talk to their ping, they still have the value of the ping later on.

By contrast, the Speaker HP, if they don't figure it out, they get nothing, they're worse than a blank token

[minor pier]

This is where we disagree, then. You're treating HP as an info role, where as written, it's definitely a mechanical role. Do the thing, or you have nothing except vague metaing.

[modern plume]

I think there's then an equivocation, since I don't know what form of 'force' Andrew is using; I'm using it in the form of social force and expectation, that you are inherently in the wrong and bad for failing to follow through

[fast anchor]

I don't think you're inherently in the wrong or bad for not acting on your info, the same way you aren't in the wrong or bad for not pushing on an FT ping or Empath 2

[minor pier]

HP as an info role can be mishandled so much more, and be way too OP, that I'd rather have it as a mechanical role only, causing chats, and be able to play and run it more often.

[fast anchor]

I think it's often suboptimal, but that's just how I play the game

[honest tide]

What is this idea of “Speaker” vs “Listener” HP? I always think of the HP and the person I’m sending them to having a convo and figuring out which of those conversations is most likely to help the good team. If the HP is a solver I’ll generally give them some info and another good solver. If they’re a socially minded player I’m more likely to send them to frames or evils

[modern plume]

On the contrary, I want to treat it as both an info role and mechanical role; the Speaker HP wants solely a 'social' character, demanding people to play this game of charades with them, ignoring the mechanical advantages and value in the game, avoiding those who could get the spotlight and instead putting eyes on the HP instead. Look at the very examples Emma put; it was argued it was wrong to put that spotlight on the Seamstress, that it was wrong to put that spotlight on the Ravenkeeper; there's no one else in the game given this advantage could be given to argued within the essay, no one of possible importance in the comment other than the HP.

Look at the examples for example given with the poisoned Mutant; if they never figure it out and the Mutant doesn't out while poisoned, the HP has completely wasted their time, while another HP better focused on lending an ear to someone who could most benefit from it or amplify their voice through hearing what they have to say over anyone else is always beneficial even if they couldn't figure out why in the moment.

[ivory ridge]

reject the correct interpretation of the high priestess

accept the fact that it's a fake homebrew that somehow made it to tpi

and never put it on your script 🔥

[tacit fiber]

BASED

[modern plume]

I'm writing about this in the essay I'm making in response to the Emma HP. Emma's HP is a 'Speaker' as I call it.

[tacit fiber]

this is why I every HP script in #custom-script-discussion

[modern plume]

The one most people tend to use and which I find more favorable I call the 'LIstener'

[minor pier]

Aka "chase down the most powerful info and amplify it", making it very hard to counter, bluff, and overall dominating scripts. It's just not fun.

[ivory ridge]

kinda real. if i see one more 'this is how to run hp' i will kill myself

[tacit fiber]

it's not fun for HP to be "Each night, learn a player."

there's benefit in talking to everyone

Emma's doc lowers the threshold til it's useless

[minor pier]

It's not that 'listener' doesn't work. I just don't want to play with it, and have never put it on a script before interpreting it as what you dub 'speaker'.

[fast anchor]

idk, I've had way more fun with high priestess when run with a more social and broader lens than I ever have otherwise

[modern plume]

Please do answer; why do you feel that it is okay to misapply and falsely assert what I am claiming? Emma and others have already stated that their methods to argument were inherently inflammatory and provacative; but what value does that have here in misrepresenting and misapplying an argument to the person making the argument?

Do you genuinely feel that is okay to do? I have written objections to the Emma HP, but why does this argue the worst intentions upon myself?

[fast anchor]

I mean this is all characters when you think about it

[tacit fiber]

I haven't.

[minor pier]

I'm trying to follow what's you're saying without devolving into 10 pages of essays. If I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, I'm sorry, but I've been nothing but polite.

[ivory ridge]

sorry, not fake

*failed

[modern plume]

You explicitely did an AKA then represent my claims in an inflammatory manner? That wouldn't be polite.

If I made the assertion that you simply want an HP that bullies away the neurodivergent and social anxious, I'd be horribly mispresenting your views in the worst possible interpretation.

It would be quite rude for me to do that, but I don't.

[minor pier]

That's how I understood what you described as 'listener' HP. Again, I could have been mistaken. It's very hard to follow what the gist of how you categorize various ways to run HP is.

[modern plume]

When the essay is out, that will explain both more in detail.

[tacit fiber]

partially becuase "social read the other person" isn't like something that's possible

so it feels exclusionary to have HP be that, I don't think it's intentionally exclusionary but I cannot interact with HP's info due to this interpretation

[modern plume]

I'll hard avoid any script run like Emma's HP, and I know several others with the same conditions and concerns I have that also will hard avoid the Emma HP.

[fast anchor]

That's fair, and for what it's worth I probably won't knowingly join games that run High Priestess in a way I personally find unfun

I run HP the way I do because of the magical games I've had with it when other people run it well

Where it shines light on a good player that's been quiet and left out of town consideration, or on an evil player whose bluff falls apart under scrutiny, or when it gets town to come together to solve 5 days of Savant info dumped on final 5

[minor pier]

And let's not get into that, please. Clocktower is a very welcoming social game, to all kinds of players, with them inherently interacting in some fashion with each other ; I don't see why a character that encourages certain chats should be seen as 'bullying', if they can successfully play the game otherwise. We may not agree on how HP should be run, but terming it as 'bullying' isn't a good argument either.

[fast anchor]

I've had great experiences with more socially-minded HPs and less-great experiences playing games where the HP just gets sent to the player with the best world the whole game or a player with good info each night

[modern plume]

You do realize you just committed the same error, right?-

I explictely argued it would be wrong to argue this, but asking me to please not do that and procedding to argue against it towards me assumes I am making the argument genuinely rather than presenting it as an example that I simultanously reject

[minor pier]

Ah, it seems I missed this. Apologies

[ivory ridge]

right but hear me out though

is that the high priestess written in the almanac though

[minor pier]

As I said, I have difficulties following the train of conversation.

[fast anchor]

no, but this also applies to pacifist

[ivory ridge]

explain

[fast anchor]

Most good STs don't run pacifist strictly in accordance with almanac guidance (if good is winning don't save and if evil is winning then save)

Some STs even say it's bad to run it that way

That doesn't mean pacifist is a bad character, and I don't think a spotty, vague entry for HP makes that a bad character fundamentally either

[ivory ridge]

I think a vague entry for HP explicitly make it worse for interpretation I fear

I'm not good at social reading and I don't want a mind game every games

[modern plume]

TBF, 'is winning' can depend on what the Pacifist does, which can have a bit of a circular logic problem.

Some saves or misses can drastically swing the game

[fast anchor]

The Pacifist is in play. Good is winning. Even after 7 days, and 5 good players executed, the Pacifist ability has not saved anybody.

😐

I would be rioting if I was the pacifist and let 5 good players die

[modern plume]

How the heck is Good winning here- This needs more context

[ivory ridge]

I think Pacifist also has less wiggle room due to 1) how visible it is & 2) how open to interpretation its wording is

[tacit fiber]

eh imo not correct? pacifist is bad bc it's unclear and can be frusterating to newer players to BMR what their character actually does and it has like 10 more lines of extra text

that's unclear and bad

[fast anchor]

If you survive to the end and nobody has been saved from execution, blame the Storyteller. Sometimes, when the good team is winning by a significant margin, the Storyteller will not activate the Pacifist ability at all to give the evil team a chance. This is a perfectly reasonable, although uncommon, thing to happen, so claiming that the Storyteller has made this decision is reasonable.

from the wiki's "bluffing as the pacifist"

[ivory ridge]

HP is the opposite of this 1) a ping is always bluffable, and arguably easier to bluff than other info role and 2) its wording specifically state to send the best player

[fast anchor]

Yeah - who the best player is, that's incredibly subjective

And rarely the player with sober healthy true info ime

[minor pier]

If anything, 'the best' is the part of wording hurting HP the most. Same as Politician. It's what makes it somewhat functional, but the interpretation problem it causes...

[ivory ridge]

i think the wording and the almanac entry and the tips and tricks of high priestess has let me to the conclusion that hp is not a real character

the amount of meta gaming require for this is no where near pacifist 😭

[feral snow]

Let’s hope the almanac update helps with that

[fast anchor]

It's probably not, let's be honest

It'll solve the issues we don't care about

[modern plume]

Pacifist sometimes is more powerful for not doing its job than it is doing its job. Fortune Teller's 'job' is to find the Demon, but getting loads of NOs is far more powerful. Soldier is also literally more powerful if it fails; if a Soldier dies at night in TB, they know either they're the Drunk or there's a Poisoner afoot.

My recent Minuit game, the poor Evil Team lost their Mastermind on Day 1, and everyone pretty much figured out they correctly got an Evil because they were claiming Plague Doctor and the Pacifist didn't do anything (add on the General info with the Mastermind having spent the Damsel guess and the Demon type about to be revealed...)

[fast anchor]

like riot's "this must happen"

(we don't care about it because nobody plays riot :3)

[minor pier]

I do run it 🥺

[modern plume]

Riot never learned how to read, so they weren't invited to text games

[ivory ridge]

On the first night, the High Priestess learns Julian. Julian is the Chef and has useful information to share
Heathly Sober True Info
On the second night, the High Priestess is shown Marianna. Marianna is the Goblin and the Storyteller thinks that the High Priestess would benefit most from talking to Marianna to find this out as early as possible
Caughting Evil without Bluff
On the third night, the High Priestess is shown Doug. Doug is the Drunk whose information is wrong and harming the good team.
Convince People to change World
For three nights in a row, the High Priestess learns Sarah. Sarah is the Saint and the good team are trying to execute her.
Signalling Purpose only
On the last night, the High Priestess learns Lewis. Lewis is the Imp, and his story is clashing with several good players
???

[fast anchor]

your games fill up quickly 😭😭

[ivory ridge]

like the almanac is only missing "Send to the Acrobat because Acrobat has the right world" to get this full circle High Priestess bs

none of these make sense

😭

[minor pier]

The workaround for text new Riot isn't perfect, but it's way better than old Riot too. Not to mention it's better balanced. I should run more of it.

[ivory ridge]

these tip and trick section too

tip 1: talk to them ASAP
tip 2: don't talk to them and just observe them
tip 3: tell them you're the HP to encourage them sharing their stuff
tip 4: don't tell them you're the HP to meta the ST

[fast anchor]

okay but this is true of literally every tips and tricks section on the wiki

[ivory ridge]

oh and all these HP use case:

[ivory ridge]

right but my point is nothing in the high priestess almanac make sense

[modern plume]

I remember it took them awhile to update Balloonist's wiki page after they updated it

So for like a month, the Balloonist page just gave nonsensical advice

[fast anchor]

well, yeah - it's a wiki article devoid of context

when HP is like the most context-dependent character in the game

[ivory ridge]

and I think that's bad actually 😭

[fast anchor]

the HP being context-dependent?

[next marlin]

The Cerenovus one is unironically pretty fire

[ivory ridge]

no the HP having no clear direction

me and you could argue over HP but that doesn't matter

because my HP is different from yours

and from livetext

and livetext game

and personal group

and ST depdent even within all those group

it feels like a meaningless argument because we're looking at different characters

[fast anchor]

the context changes who the "best player" is and I think that's fine

It makes it annoying to describe on online discussion forums, sure, but I personally really appreciate that

[ivory ridge]

oh my stance is a bit different than this

hmmm i have two stance

maybe both are wrong 🔥

the first one is: "high priestess is not a real character and only exists as ragebait"
the second one is "high priestess' wording of <<the best player>> severely limits the scope of discussion and i think the best high priestess' specifically ignore that wording for a more balanced + fun game"

[minor pier]

The second is basically how I've seen some people argue Politician should be run, too. Because they consider the Demon kills more important than most things to help evil win.

[ivory ridge]

a radical idea that come from the second stance is "high priestess is a filler character because as the ST you could just give something as long as it's not deterimental to the HP because nobody gonna argue with you"

[next marlin]

You do get games sometimes where the demon's kills were perhaps best described as "not the primary factor in evil's victory"

[minor pier]

Sure ; but in most other games, some would then argue the Politician never had a chance of turning, verbatim, and thus should be reworded. I'm not sure it's necessary, but I see the reason.

[next marlin]

But yeah I think poli is "the most influential good player" and anything about "moreso than any evils too" is, for all it's suggested as a possibility in the almanac, a bit much for most games

Notably if the poli has to beat the evil team then they functionally can't collaborate with evil

Like, I wouldn't have been able to flip Mizu in that cc game if it were "more than any evils"

Because Mizu wasn't the one cerelocking Waffles into pixie-confirming him

[fast anchor]

I've honestly just started flipping my polis when the evil team wouldn't have won without them

It's probably a bit too much of an overcorrection

[modern plume]

I think that's the intended design at minimum?

[fast anchor]

but it's fun, and I do think a more flexible Politician is more fun

[ivory ridge]

🔥

[fast anchor]

at least, it is for my group

[ivory ridge]

i 100% agree with that

well, 90%

idk how much of an overcorrection with it

[modern plume]

If Evil Team couldn't have won without the Politician, hard to argue against their win. It's pretty hard as well to think of a Politician more deserving of such a victory that somehow wasn't important at all to Evil's win

[next marlin]

My take on poli, in the end, is that all poli discourse is a way to talk around "some people will be right assholes if you let them", and the threshold is "be a big part of it and don't be a right asshole", and everything stricter is an attempt to exclude all cases of #2 without saying #2

[ivory ridge]

but i agree we should ignore wording and make a more fun game for people

[dry sluice]

when I eventually run a poli for the first time, I'm gonna let the players discuss whether they deserve to win

[ivory ridge]

and if i'm gonna be forced to run strict wording poli (and hp)

[modern plume]

I'd be careful, because that can result in some bad feelings.

[ivory ridge]

i'd just rather not run it

[fast anchor]

That seems really unfun for the politician

[modern plume]

It could essentially force a mini-game after the game for the politician to convince the other players to give them a win they fought for

[dry sluice]

Not as a rule to carry forward; as a way to set expectations for future ST decisions

Sure, maybe I should instead ask the group who most helped the evil team win in a non-poli game first 😛

[ivory ridge]

you could just decide for yourself

[minor pier]

That's very risky yeah, especially as the ST pov can be wildly different from the player pov in a game. Trusting the ST to arbitrate is one thing, trusting the entire group working with partial info and various feelings about the game that just ended is...

Big risks for very small gains.

[modern plume]

Once the standard is put too high for the Politician, it just becomes a blank token since Politicians won't bother sabotaging their team trying for an alternative victory that's too hard to obtain

[karmic rose]

+1 to the idea that the qualifiers on HP (and, to a lesser extent, politician) make discussions on running them a lot more difficult

If fisherman read "once per game, visit the storyteller for some advice to best help your team win" it would cause so so so many arguments

[fast anchor]

not really, it'd just be an unfun character

because "execute the demon" is objectively the best course of action unless it's heretic

[karmic rose]

The fisherman is best run as "advice that helps the fisherman's team while remaining at the power level of a townsfolk who survived to use their ability", but that wording would run counter to fun fisherman

[modern plume]

Or Lleech

[karmic rose]

exactly! and if your players are expecting the HP to point to someone with the best info, then the "best" person to speak to will always be the good player with the most damning sober and healthy info

which sucks

[modern plume]

I remember a game where the Fisherman was a Lleech host, but when they went for their advice by coincidence the Lleech was Goon drunk meaning the Fisherman got sober advice. It was quite the challenge making good advice that wasn’t the obvious broken “Die”

[karmic rose]

I think superlatives would break so many townsfolk ability texts, and HP (as the ability text reads) would align better with the intent of the character if the word "most" were dropped

[fast anchor]

I do think it's necessary for the HP though

Because you need something to latch onto

If it wasn't "most" you could legitimately show anyone

(and no, I don't think more contemporary styles of HP do this already)

[next vault]

secret thing should become it's own channel at this point

[fast anchor]

it's a very big group chat

[next marlin]

all channels are one channel and we know it

[next vault]

axo, if you had to do a BOTC script based on TBOI what would you do?

[fast anchor]

Can't say. For reasons

[next vault]

huh

[modern plume]

To finish this story btw, the advice given was something like "Tell [the Saint] that they're the only one that needs to fear execution", to not only give some confirmation to the Saint, but as a subtle clue that everyone else is fair game to be executed including the Fisherman.

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-gif-13250124

[pseudo fulcrum]

yeah it's a bit hard for a channel that's at the top of one of the most commonly visited forums on the server to be 'secret'

[ivory ridge]

what's the ranking

[pseudo fulcrum]

?

of what

[ivory ridge]

tops

wait

[fast anchor]

geographic top

[ivory ridge]

top visited channels

[pseudo fulcrum]

i mean out of the forums

[next marlin]

observationally there are several dozen frequent livevoicers and a couple dozen frequent discussionies, with some overlap

[ivory ridge]

ah 😔

[pseudo fulcrum]

the discord channels that let you make other channels within them

[modern plume]

Still, in context, it was known in Kibitz that the literal best possible answer would always be "Die" in that situation, and we pretty much measured the possible advice against it to avoid being too close to it.

[fast anchor]

Wait we didn't even have a question today did we

[next marlin]

we did

it was about fabled

[ivory ridge]

brb lemme type up an hp question

🔥

[fast anchor]

Oh no we did

[modern plume]

Any time you can tell the Fisherman to die as advice is always a great time

[fast anchor]

The fabled one

[next marlin]

.

[honest tide]

Someone mentioned hp and we went off the rails

[next marlin]

many such cases

[honest tide]

What an asshole

Who’d do that

[pseudo fulcrum]

I think we've got
#1010685586971054100
#1029515413790392370
#1010681830149730434
#1029520601645318206
and any others aren't important enough to be on my channel list

[next marlin]

@young sonnet you hearing this

[ivory ridge]

wasn't it 😭

[honest tide]

(It was me. I’m the problem)

[karmic rose]

I dunno, I think most playgroups would be able to understand that the HP/target conversation will be illuminating somehow.

but I understand where you're coming from

[next marlin]

Have you seen how STs run literally anything with an unbounded ST agency component

[pseudo fulcrum]

actually, Paradox did give us some stats a while back

[karmic rose]

yeah ok maybe I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who mostly plays with a semi-static group

[pseudo fulcrum]

#speculation-and-spoilers used to be the most active channel (especially around characters releases)
followed closely by #general

[next marlin]

Don't you play on the app sometimes

[modern plume]

Either (A) with the most immense caution ever or (B) not having the word 'caution' in their vocabulary?

[next marlin]

I think the most unbounded ST agency role is Pacifist

Which is...

Pacifist

[modern plume]

The last game I ran with a Pacifist in it, Town only executed Evil players prior to the Pacifist's death

[karmic rose]

I do sometimes! and I'm in some smaller servers so that ~half the lobby is people who know each other, including the ST

[ivory ridge]

it's actually HP

[modern plume]

"Man, it's easy to run Pacifist when it can't even activate!"

[fast anchor]

The most unbounded ST agency role is General, and it's a good thing because I can show them memes on my phone instead of using my thumb

[karmic rose]

and then we open up to public to hit quorum

[ivory ridge]

holy shit i know what is a good meme to send

[lean isle]

This is hilarious

[modern plume]

With General, you sometimes get the situations where 5 stars isn't enough

[fast anchor]

<--- gave the pukkad General an "it's joever"

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/stanford-pines-gravity-falls-grunkle-ford-bill-cipher-sixer-gif-8800570312756749005

[next marlin]

going to need to take closer notes of when you're there when I actually remember "oh, I should play this game sometimes" and look at the open lobbies instead of just sitting in my own lobby where I hyperfocus on rolling grims for Lunar Eclipse

[modern plume]

I remember a game where Good was losing so badly that the STs wished they had a "You are getting destroyed" option

[ivory ridge]

this is for "it's joever for evil"

[karmic rose]

the worst part of public app lobbies is trying to find a lobby that sits between "TB for new players" and "5 wizards and an atheist"

[next marlin]

That's why I only run snv 😎

[karmic rose]

gottem

[lean isle]

Only 5 wizards

[modern plume]

No one can manage proper refined and controlled pandemonium; all or nothing with these wild STs

[next marlin]

but also I've heard there's gonna be one soon #event-listings message

[karmic rose]

alas! I will probably be in lab then

[modern plume]

Here's an interesting question; As an ST, what's the wildest thing you've set up in a game intentionally and saw go off?

[barren zenith]

Was this conversation about HP?

[modern plume]

I'll start: I ran Alchemist-Boffin granting the Recluse the Slayer ability

[honest tide]

You say this but the first game I ran with wizard in person the wizard wish was “I wish everyone had a wish”. Then there was a hard vortox check on d1 leading to a good heretic win (neither heretic or vortox were on the script)

[next marlin]

what the hell else do we talk about here

[modern plume]

Recluse shot herself 7 minutes into the game

[karmic rose]

and you denied my wish for $20!!!

[honest tide]

I did

I stand by it

[barren zenith]

Poisoner.

[modern plume]

Is it running an outsider like an outsider? Nope.
Is it running a Townsfolk like a Townsfolk? Yes

[gusty bear]

the cost is $21

[honest tide]

I thought about this afterward

[modern plume]

#1326150225726804081 message

[honest tide]

It was hilarious too because everyone was making joke wishes

[fast anchor]

We had a question about Fabled 😭😭😭😭😭

[modern plume]

For those that wish to read about the Recluse shooting herself dead

[honest tide]

Then the actual wizard made that wish in town square

[modern plume]

[next marlin]

And now we have one about fables

[modern plume]

We have new questions now

[honest tide]

Pretty sure there was a djinn on the script

[fast anchor]

hey do livetext games count as "games involving fabled"

[honest tide]

So idk maybe it mattered

[fast anchor]

because of

[fast anchor]

There's a djinn on most scripts, it comes free with the jinxes

[gusty bear]

did you execute anyone to it

[next marlin]

axo, important question: does evil win lunar eclipse? ever? a single time in the entire history of botc excluding that one game you ran where they did?

[fast anchor]

It's slightly goodsided but yes evil does win

Also I've run two games of evil wins

[next marlin]

the one I know is the livevoice where dox was Definitely The Lunatic

[modern plume]

I'm still waiting for a Good win on Minuit a Fond la Caisse against the Vortox. My script favors Evil it seems (except for the Po, Po so far is only Good wins)

[next marlin]

also it's funny to say yes, so yes

[karmic slate]

True. It was discussed and Specs&Spoilers was definitely most used

[next vault]

The base for a script where executing can be very fun

[fast anchor]

#livetext-game message

Here's the other one

[next vault]

Fearmonger bluffing TL ☺️

[barren zenith]

Needs lleech

[next marlin]

oh yeah I remember that grim reveal now

[next vault]

idk this is just the base

[modern plume]

This poor town with Lleech on it and also Tea Lady, Cannibal, Sailor...

[fast anchor]

Also how the hell

were you there?

[next marlin]

no

I just absorb knowledge of things

[barren zenith]

It wasn't a serious suggestion btw

[fast anchor]

from that grim reveal you could not tell who won lmao

[next marlin]

yeah but I'd heard the story

[fast anchor]

Because it was a mayor in f3 with a da protected demon

[fast anchor]

from who???????

[next marlin]

I forgor

[fast anchor]

😭

how big is your index card

you probably know all the members of my irl group that are on this server

[hollow oasis]

Fearmonger just needs exe survival confirmed

[next marlin]

if this is a number above two, no

[next vault]

Fearmonger bluffing TL when they nominate their neighbour and everyone is all for it

[hollow oasis]

it's a good idea

[next vault]

it's the core idea of the script

[hollow oasis]

so I was actually doing a similar thing

but homebrew

[next vault]

also

PD Boomdandy

[fast anchor]

what if it's a number below two

[next marlin]

two counting you

[fast anchor]

In the case where I'm the only one of my irl group in this server I would absolutely still make this quip

Even though it assumes that there's more than me

Because it's funny

[next marlin]

mood

[fast anchor]

also @next marlin @lean isle are your dog laugh emotes different?

[next marlin]

yes

[fast anchor]

i swear they are but I can't pinpoint it

[lean isle]

Yes

[next marlin]

proxi's has ears and has weird neck folds

[lean isle]

Good luck figuring out how.

[cold veldt]

pretend i said something really funny so we can compare

damn those two different af

[next marlin]

love the juxtaposition

[fast anchor]

aaah ic

wait, are mine and vati's the same

[next marlin]

yes

I believe proxi's is the original image from which two popular crops (the one I have, and one with ears but without the neck folds) are in like 75% of discord servers

[fast anchor]

there are many nitro emotes I have that I don't have a opportunity to use on this server

I should probably use more though

there is ample opportunity

oh yeah fabled

sorry gamers 😭

[modern plume]

I have lots of my Quilava and Cyndaquil emotes

All the favorites

[fast anchor]

I've always wanted to ask: who is this mysterious vade who's in all the emotes

[modern plume]

And then the... bad ones.

|| ||

[fast anchor]

wait ㊙️ is such a good emoji what

[modern plume]

Oh no

[fast anchor]

secret 🔥🔥

[modern plume]

I'm gonna have started something

Oh no

[fast anchor]

[lean isle]

My only experience with fabled that I remember is #time-isn't-real, which had them all :D

[fast anchor]

OH YEAH

how could I forget

[next marlin]

I'd like to drop the bomb with axo

[gray ridge]

I would play livetext with people on this channel tbh

[modern plume]

You'll never take me alive, you can't make me.

[next marlin]

pls

[modern plume]

[next marlin]

I might be forced to become...a longtexter

[modern plume]

My social anxiety issues just makes any faster paced thing like live or livetext just not feasible for me xP

If I tried to play live, I freeze up or struggle at times

[cold veldt]

longtext players 🤝 voice players: not wanting to play livetext

[next marlin]

bhamber

[modern plume]

[next marlin]

honestly I've been markedly worse at actually showing up for livetexts I consciously-want to play lately for overlapping reasons

[lean isle]

Same, I've been a lot less active in livetext recently.

[hollow oasis]

I won't play livetext

anymore

and no vati you can't convince me

[next marlin]

12p doesn't count

but also I think I fucked up the day timing that game somewhat

mostly consequent to the fact 12p doesn't count

I'm starting to think in a more "I'm just going to let 2 minion livetexts be 3 hours long because if I try to run them faster I break down entirely" direction but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it

[hollow oasis]

I'm only gonna play livetext 5p

[next marlin]

progress!

[hollow oasis]

and I still won't

[next marlin]

wail

[hollow oasis]

app better

I'd probably enjoy livevoice more

[next marlin]

livevoice intrigues me but the structure feels like it combines a lot of the more annoying parts of both

[hollow oasis]

what

is the annoying part of app

[next marlin]

consequences of being a voice-based format, i.e. overtalking

which seems way waaaaay worse in discord where you don't even have hand-raising cues

[fast anchor]

why

[hollow oasis]

that's just livetext

[next marlin]

half the livevoices I spec I genuinely can't pick out anybody's speech

(my auditory processing is pretty rough though)

[hollow oasis]

I tried it once

and It was just existing and just not getting anything across

[next marlin]

livetext avoids this problem logistically due to things being written down and the app has it but it's easier to signal that you intend to speak

[hollow oasis]

Legion sounds like hell in that format

[modern plume]

Not like Legion is all that great in text either

[next marlin]

longtext legion is a special case

[hollow oasis]

I was saying it was bad in text

like, I don't see a conceivable way it would be good there

[next marlin]

when quilava says 'text' he refers to longtext which is way, way less like livetext than livetext is like any of app/livevoice/irl

[hollow oasis]

ah

That format that no scripts we like work in

[next marlin]

(this is why I insist on the triad distinction)

[next marlin]

a lot of my intuitions are probably more functional in longtext than they are on live time controls; a lot of what I want to play is not

it's an idea I play around with

[sour harness]

I think I have a reputation around my answer lol

Let's just say it wasn't just one fabled

[next marlin]

you were sniped to it

[sour harness]

Of course I was

[next vault]

what was the amne ability there?

[next marlin]

"nobody can die"

[next vault]

what 😭

[next marlin]

It's a story

[next vault]

who won that game? evil?

[next marlin]

I was the outed evil apprentice spy who registered as a townsfolk to the concept of exiles/executions and as good to the levi wincon

Well, until I got widow poisoned

[next marlin]

Officially, everyone

[next vault]

wait what

im so confused

[hollow oasis]

wasn't it because you dropped the goddamn bomb

[next marlin]

No

[hollow oasis]

or was that a different thing somehow

[next marlin]

Town executed the demon who was also the outed demon who had been hardclaiming demon since d1

[hollow oasis]

why!?!??!?!

[next marlin]

We tried to drop the bomb but hystrex's all-consuming loathing for fun and whimsy prevented it

[hollow oasis]

oh damn

[next marlin]

Basically it was an atheist game but it had an evil team but on account of being functionally-atheist everyone was counted as winning

[next vault]

atheist-apprentice?

[fast anchor]

no

[sour harness]

^^^ officially everyone, technically good

It was not an atheist game

[sour harness]

My bad

[next marlin]

It's the best way to explain it

[sour harness]

Yeah I ran it like it was an atheist game lol

It would've felt bad to say anyone lost

[next marlin]

Can't damage my livetext evil winrate 😎

[tacit fiber]

I think that more socials based HPs this is Just True esp since they assume how the conversation is going to go

so like

anyone becomes a good conversation

[ebon idol]

has a question been posted for today yet or nah

[next marlin]

two

pick the one you wish to answer

[fast anchor]

This is objectively false and I'm going to prove it

[ebon idol]

can't find it over the billionth HP convo between the same group of 10p 🙈

[fast anchor]

on mobile so will be scuffed

[next marlin]

I was about to say the convo had moved on 😭

[next marlin]

*4p

[ebon idol]

Y'alll can we just like

drop HP seriously lmao

[sour harness]

Where's question 2 lol

[ebon idol]

you can just not like a character it's fine, it doesn't need to be a focal point of discussion every time 🙈

having pacifist flashbacks from a year ago

[next marlin]

I love HP, it's one of my favourite characters, I just see something very different when I look at it

[ivory ridge]

so true, i'm in my hp-less diet rn

[ebon idol]

I need my awkward emote back so badly

[next marlin]

no I just really wanted to respond to that/take the bait because I don't agree with the idea I dislike it

it's probably my second or third favourite townsfolk

and it seems so so obvious to me what it is but I cannot seem to express this to anyone

[ebon idol]

Im not baiting you I just legitimently do not care and am going insane from it being talked about such an insanely disproportionate amount of times

It is hard to engage in discussion channels when 30% of the time it's a highpriestess conversation

[next marlin]

I think that specifically is just req

[next marlin]

anyway this was the second question

first was the one about fabled

[fast anchor]

this is kinda real actually

[hollow oasis]

I can't find the questions

[ebon idol]

I think a thread in #experimental-chat would probably be best HP at this point 👍

[next marlin]

I just linked it!!

[ebon idol]

And I shall leave it there

[sour harness]

Incredibly so

[tacit fiber]

gr

[sour harness]

Oh this is a cool question, unfortunately my players never see the vision

[ebon idol]

tbh personally I don't like the idea of the ST setting up wild things, since a lot of the time what the ST thinks is wild and what is fun and interesting are two different things. They can align, but it's not a venn diagram I just personally like to play around with

[fast anchor]

This is why I do not set up plays for players

[sour harness]

I mean I usually don't

[fast anchor]

Also because I don't think it's fun for players mos—yeah Hannah you just said it

[sour harness]

And if I do I leave other options open bc I don't wanna tell em how to play the game

[fast anchor]

There's a difference between ST fun 🦈 and player fun

[tacit fiber]

why the 🦈

oh

Blahaj reference??

[ebon idol]

Let players find the interesting and wilds things naturally, this game sets up for it enough

[fast anchor]

i have been dragged through the mud for 🦈 years after the game and I have listened and learned 🙇‍♀️

[hollow oasis]

The ST setting up wild things is ok when the game is streamed

and that's the only time

[honest tide]

Marionette (seeing washerwoman) confirming the drunk (seeing ravenkeeper) picked the lunatic (seeing imp)

[ebon idol]

😌

[fast anchor]

only if the ST is patters

[hollow oasis]

99% of the time

[ebon idol]

and by dragged through the mud I just complain about it semi often because it's a good example

[honest tide]

It was glorious

[fast anchor]

As much as I want to give a Mastermind + no DA evil team Tea Lady and Minstrel as bluffs, it hard locks them into selling their demon as a minion and I will not do that

[next marlin]

This is going to be the game that someone takes the dreamer bluff with an evil nightkills demon and actually dies. This is going to be the game that someone takes the dreamer bluff with an evil nightkills demon and actually dies. This is going to be the g

[fast anchor]

So this is why dreamer on hide & seek is actually bluffable 💡

[next marlin]

This but unironically

[sour harness]

Oh I have a response that definitely doesn't answer the question!! Last night I ran BMR and the tea lady landed between the sailor and the fool

[ivory ridge]

actually

[next marlin]

Vortox is not the snvdemon that makes Dreamer bluffable

[sour harness]

I was like "hey let's put exe survival in to justify the professor" and then they all coincided

[ivory ridge]

there's this time I want to give the investigator a "no"

[next marlin]

It's the snvdemon that makes "a blank token that kind of looks like Dreamer" bluffable, but this is much less interesting

[ivory ridge]

in a 1 minion game

[sour harness]

It's ok the prof was sailor drunk n3 anyway

[ivory ridge]

but i didn't 😔

invest no is kinda cool

[hollow oasis]

so it's nodashii

[fast anchor]

two nickels

[next marlin]

it's fg/vigor because fg/vigor teams can actually bluff the dreamer ability

[hollow oasis]

oh slap yeah

[next marlin]

but evil nightkill mechanics are perhaps best described as unintuitive

[fast anchor]

I like how we pivoted off the question in record time

[ivory ridge]

so real tbh

[fast anchor]

My fault

[next marlin]

this is just one of the days where we're using it as a group chat

[fast anchor]

Sorry gamers 😭😭 I keep derailing

[ivory ridge]

soceity of snv doesn't exists

[next marlin]

which tend to be the more interesting ones

so I'd rather do it

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/mundo-feliz-onetreehsll-world-if-gif-14071235670792471304

you know seeing this image give me an idea

[fast anchor]

oh no

[ivory ridge]

what if i make a homebrew script where townsfolk are all billionaire

[next marlin]

Dreamer is bluffable on hns because you confirm your demon then 'the ojo sniped you', and Undertaker is bluffable on hns because you make up some obvious bullshit 'because you were pukka poisoned'

[hollow oasis]

no those should be everyone but the TF

[fast anchor]

billionaires are the evil team

[ivory ridge]

no you see i need to make luigi a minion somehow

[hollow oasis]

luigi is a TF

[next marlin]

No it's doing the Face Your Fears thing

[hollow oasis]

and mario is on script for shits and giggles

[fast anchor]

[ivory ridge]

you just don't see the beauty of making a demon called leech (with one l) in a all tf billionaire games 😔

omg parasite

[hollow oasis]

parasite is literally just billionaires

[ivory ridge]

right but there's a what's the word for it

[hollow oasis]

capitalism

[next marlin]

also I would love this, I love framing demons as minions when evil

it explains everything in exactly the wrong way

[ivory ridge]

the pesky dreamer:

[next marlin]

was a bluff 😎

[ivory ridge]

the peskier harlot:

[next marlin]

it was actually the witch's bluff last time I did this

and I was sitting there in f3 with both the witch and fang gu confirmed evil, going "see, dreamer is way more of a fang gu bluff because he was obviously trying to jump, and she's claiming artist and clearing him, it's so miniony, the socials perfectly match that world"

[fast anchor]

you should play BMR and do this

[next marlin]

can't take the townsfolk bluffs, need to bluff moonchild as the gf-1

[sour harness]

Bluff Townsfolk and then bluff goon when you die and pray there's no minstrel

[next marlin]

But I waaaaant to moonchild pick people

It's fun

I love laying curses upon people for wronging me

[sour harness]

Fair enough

[ivory ridge]

are you even a moonchild smh

[next marlin]

Out of the BMR outsiders and also the non homebrew outsiders the main one is lunatic but moonchild is on the periphery

[sharp violet]

Not your fault actually, it was Sooth backreading a month for HP

[sharp violet]

As for my question, I was SW, Imp’s Internet went down at the end of D1, so ST had me fiddle and I won

[next marlin]

No this is regarding the, I think, seventh pivot

[ivory ridge]

talking about pivot

[sour harness]

Moonchild is just klutz but with sightly more whimsy (klutz is already moderately whimsical)

[hollow oasis]

yep

[next marlin]

If I'm asked if I'm a particular role I'm taking it as in universe/lore influenced and lorewise moonchild is far less whimsical than klutz

[sour harness]

Yeah but mechanically

Botc characters are mechanics that I rotate around in my brain, any semblance to real world flavoring is purely coincidental

[ivory ridge]

damn what happened to your him

[sour harness]

Needed space for the *st tag

And got lazy

[next marlin]

BotC characters are mechanics I rotate in my brain and also are an elaborate storyline that apparently has an sdg attached

[sour harness]

Jk the real answer is that I'm a he but I'll never be him </3

[ivory ridge]

why did you send a picture of papa smurf

(this is a joke please don't kill me)

[fast anchor]

papa Ben

[feral snow]

Idk if Ben is in this thread

I hope he sees this

[next marlin]

I don't

[sour harness]

I hope so too

Wait no he has a sense of who I am bc of world cup

Jk I hope he never learns that this thread even exists

[feral snow]

If you win I’ll post this image somewhere for him to see

[sour harness]

NOOOOO (ok)

Lol

[ivory ridge]

👀 now what does that mean

[young sonnet]

I hate that so much lmfao

[next marlin]

I've come to dislike it because it's a very TB playstyle that doesn't work well on scripts with any other info landscape but it's an intuitive one to fall into and people tend to drift away from it when you point that out on scripts where it doesn't work

[hollow oasis]

what app is this???

[coarse fern]

All of them were in play

It was coincidentally also a Leviathan game

I shot the Voudon 3 times as the Gunslinger but they never died 😔

[ivory ridge]

how 😭

[coarse fern]

Where do I start

Actually that one is easy

The amnesiac ability was “nobody can die”

[sharp violet]

With a Voudon in play…

[tidal quiver]

that's not voting anymore, it's an autocracy

[tardy wyvern]

Playing as a heretic on a stormcaught drunk script and accidentally giving away that I was the heretic by outsider count (this kinda doesn’t have anything to do with the fabled but it counts)

Wait no, the most memorable experience with a fabled was playing race to the bottom, the klutz doomsaid and died instantly and then picked the vortox

[sour harness]

Even better, there was a bishop that I used exclusively to nominate the demon (who was then scapegoat saved every time)

[coarse fern]

Good still won though yay

We just had to barista triple the apprentice alch poisoner and have them poison the scapegoat, the bishop, and the amnesiac

[sharp violet]

barista triple?

[next marlin]

Look at one point the spy registered as the fisherman to the barista and received fish advice, the baristas weren't really following game rules

[sour harness]

There were 2 baristas

[sour harness]

Btw I'm pretty sure it was solvable without barista

Poison amne -> exile sg bishop

But ofc that's boring and not canon

[gray ridge]

Barista double philo

[sour harness]

I wouldn't put a philo on fishbucket, that's a bad ST decision!!

[hollow oasis]

2/23: Design a Riot Script where the evil team is fucked. No bootleggers or djinns allowed

[modern plume]

BMR + Riot is a good start

[coarse fern]

That was a bad st decision

[modern plume]

Sailor, Tea Lady, Fool

Add Pixie and Philosopher and Sailor together.
You can potentially have two Good players who are invincible on the final day.

[hollow oasis]

Vizier

Needs a vizier

[modern plume]

Vizier just becomes a Riot on the final day, ouch, lol.
But Alchemist-Vizier becomes goofy.

"Congrats Alchemist-Vizier, you don't have an ability to force execute on the final day, but you can't die either at least! :D"

[hollow oasis]

Alch viz is busted

[hollow oasis]

In Fairness you can stun lock the noms

So it’s a little busted

[modern plume]

Technically in Riot, nothing stops players from self nominating if they're still alive

So an Alch-Vizier who gets nominated and doesn't die can just 'play with themselves' while everyone discusses actual plans

[hollow oasis]

Yea

[modern plume]

If I was an ST for this and I had the momentary madness of running this script, I'd probably rule against self noms on a final day of Riot, just to avoid this absurdity

"I clearly momentarily lost my mind in running this script, I am sorry as an ST, but I am at least gonna fix my mistakes; stop playing with yourself and start nominating other players"

For outsiders, add ones that don't matter on the final day

Butler just isn't an outsider on the final day

[dry sluice]

On this Riot teensy script, I can almost prove that good wins by force.

["empath","alsaahir","juggler","seamstress","artist","philosopher","nightwatchman","saint","tinker","vizier","summoner","riot"]

[sharp violet]

How would you do it with this grim setup that still works for others? Going clockwise:
Riot (bluffing Seamstress)
Vizier
Empath
Saint
Nightwatchman
Juggler

Because the way I see this grim playing out is:
Saint and Vizier are innately confirmed, Nightwatchman picks the Saint n2, leaving the Juggler, “Seamstress”, and Empath as Demon candidates. The Juggler and “Seamstress” both say the other is Riot n2 after they know who doesn’t need checking, leaving town with a 50/50 as if they don’t execute the right one then the Vizier can jump out and be the first to nominate d3 resulting in not enough time for all evils to die

[dry sluice]

...Dang it, you're right. Well found.

One day I will manage to construct a teensy that evil cannot win

[sour harness]

Leviathan lycanthrope is a good start

[dry sluice]

Lycanthrope's faux paw makes it really hard to guarantee town has enough info

[sour harness]

Have you considered that it can kill all players that register as good

[lone spire]

I've definitely been involved with an evil win recently, and have heard of another one. Like axo said, it's slightly good favored but evil wins quite fairly often still.

[cyan reef]

I think most custom scripts in general are good-favored

just kind of the nature of custom scripts

[barren zenith]

It's sort of the nature of the game

[cyan reef]

well, the base scripts, and especially TB, are pretty 50/50

[barren zenith]

#1280673118373023805 #1271450696587149476 and https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1157796073528623238 are all notable evil-sided customs.

Not extremely evil-sided

But enough to give them a slight edge over the good team

[barren zenith]

Evil typically on wins SnV if there is a pit-hag or unsolvable twins in my experience

TB is absolutely balanced tho

[cyan reef]

S&V is slightly good-favored overall

but close to 50/50

[next marlin]

It's 54-46, evil wins all the time when that isn't the case

This is truer when the ST is stacking the deceptively-strong end of the townsfolk though

These days I think it'd probably be an evilsided script if not for clockmaker

[hollow oasis]

Clock should've been replaced

with something\

less

broken

[tardy wyvern]

is snv but clockmaker is subbed for shugenja a viable script

[next marlin]

Every snv demon has an inbuilt counter to it one way or another but it is deceptively strong such that it ends up in too many bags

[next marlin]

I've run this with a couple other changes and it works. By itself probably works even better

[hollow oasis]

it's kinda jank with Vortox

[next marlin]

shugenja is extremely vortoxable

[tardy wyvern]

I remember hearing people talk about that and I wasn’t sure how serious they were being

[hollow oasis]

Personally I think it should've just been some random OPG

or maybe a Repeating info

[cyan reef]

it works as-is (if but barely) so it's fine enough

[next marlin]

But yeah I think overuse of clock and sc carries most of the complaints about snv because clock is far stronger than it looks and sc has an extremely evilsided script presence but is extremely goodsided in play

[cyan reef]

as usual, making even slight changes to a script that is otherwise balanced can have a pretty big cascading effect

(also keep in mind that for most people who mainly consume Clocktower via online, S&V plays a lot differently than in person)

[next marlin]

It's interesting to me that in the end, after all is said and done, the winrate stats on the app in 2023 are functionally identical to the winrate stats from steven's in-person playtesting

[fresh shard]

Why is that?

(I have never played snv online)

[cyan reef]

S&V relies on there being an overload of information that's difficult to sift through, especially since some of it can be wrong and the information can be "outdated"

online, people more often are able to track every bit of information which gives good an advantage

not helped by the fact that many STs give a lot of time in their games

lots of aspects of this game in fact are overall skewed (for better or for worse) by the online game playing out a bit differently than the in-person game...Lunatic is another good example

[tacit fiber]

meeeee

[fast anchor]

this 100% - as someone who plays a lot across different mediums s&v irl is way more chaotic and overwhelming compared to even live online

it can feel like there's a torrent of info coming from all directions and you just want to shoot into twins

[lucid crag]

right so make a teensy with summoner evil twin and riot

[hollow oasis]

summoner helps evil tho

undetectable riot

[lucid crag]

make vizier then

[hollow oasis]

yea

[lucid crag]

actually i have a better idea

bootlegger rule: Good know the evil team

[tidal quiver]

bootlegger rule: evil players can only nominate themself

[lucid crag]

bootlegger rule: evil loses

[hollow oasis]

that's cheating cmon

by that logic

Riot(Demon): Evil loses

[lucid crag]

Yes and

/j

[tidal quiver]

hear me out with this bootlegger rule: good always wins. if evil would win, all players win

[lucid crag]

wow hope and love in the world

lets ruin it

bootlegger rule: evil always lose. if evil would win, all players lose

I'm sure players will love this rule

[tidal quiver]

I like it

but it's just not mean enough

how about "all players always lose. if evil would win, all good players also lose next game"

how about "all players always lose. All players who would lose instead never can play Blood on the Clocktower Again"

[tidal quiver]

i'd be happy to ST some TB with this rule for anyone

[lucid crag]

i'd cut the riff raff "If you attempt to play Blood on the Clocktower you die irl"

[tidal quiver]

good point

would go well with my homebrew ousider "If you did not play Blood on the Clocktower today, you might be executed."

[warped fog]

teensy or full?

also

2/24: What is your favourite homebrew character other than the Occultist? (not your own)

[lean isle]

Showman - "Players who don’t applaud your (& only your) death might die at any time."

Tbh, not sure, there are so many cool characters.

[abstract cosmos]

Omen from #lies-spies-and-eyes i'd say is pretty good

[ivory ridge]

ngl i've seen homebrew characters and scripts and none of them interest me

any recommendation?

[modern plume]

I have an idea for a homebrew but still struggling with creating it.

[acoustic chasm]

Hm

I think I like Trumpeter from Fall of Rome

Obscrul and Archivist from the Bootlegger's Anthrology

[tidal quiver]

Temptress from FoR, I've wanted to make a script for so long where it's the only homebrew character

[tacit fiber]

Martin Blackwood

Barista Minion and it woorks so well

[hollow oasis]

Yes

[acoustic chasm]

I now agree fully

Fall of Rome's Temptress is simply fantastic

[foggy grotto]

SLEEPWALKER

it’s pretty peak

[next marlin]

occ-- fine

Tactician is pretty cool

[hollow oasis]

Personally Hannibal

[foggy grotto]

this too (no bias btw definitely not the only fall of rome character i’ve ever been)

[hollow oasis]

Alternatively, Barrowfog

[acoustic chasm]

EH

[next marlin]

Actually astronomer is even more cool I think

[hollow oasis]

Astronomer seems weak

If there’s a lot of ST decisions possible

[next marlin]

The examples clarify it decently

It's kind of like if you took riddlefish and made it actually work

[hollow oasis]

I still don’t like that it’s OPG

[acoustic chasm]

i don't know

[tacit fiber]

The third one is best for Droisoned Astronomer

[young sonnet]

This is so tough

I think Mycologist will always be awesome to me

I like Bookie and Deacon a lot too

Trickster is also cool

[supple dirge]

Can people say what these homebrew characters are for people who don't know

[lean isle]

I think that'd be nice, yeah.

[supple dirge]

One of my pet peeves is people just name drop homebrews like everyone already knows what they are

[tacit fiber]

You start knowing 1 of 2 players is a particular Outsider. Each night*, until dusk, choose one: 1) an Outsider is sober, untwisted, gets true info, and acts even if dead, or 2) they act twice. [-1 to +1 Outsider]

[supple dirge]

What does twisted do?

[lean isle]

ST discretion of ability favors opposing team or something like that.

[tacit fiber]

The Spiral (Townsfolk) - Each night, choose another alive player: while you live, any Storyteller agency for their ability is twisted to help the opposite team it normally would. [+1 Outsider]

[sour harness]

Oh wait that's not until dusk shoot

[shrewd cloud]

This one I like a lot. Only got to run it once but really liked it and the type of info I could give to the Astronomer

[ivory ridge]

so true bestie

[ebon idol]

Difficult

I think either brainwasher or the hunt

[primal crescent]

LET'S GOOOO

[barren zenith]

I think the centurion is a rly fun idea

It's like a fearmonger

[young sonnet]

Mycologist- Each night, choose 2 players (not yourself): if either is evil, neither can die tonight or tomorrow day.
Bookie - You start by choosing 2 alive players (not yourself): if the 1st dies before the 2nd, you learn an evil player & choose again.
Deacon - The good player who is the most correct can’t die.
Trickster - Each night*, learn an alive good player who’s mad that you're evil.

[karmic rose]

Bookie is great, I'm a huge fan of it

[primal crescent]

which centurion?

oh right FoR

[barren zenith]

There's multiple?

[primal crescent]

well names arent usually enough

[fast anchor]

Off the top of my head:

[TBA] Ketos (Demon): After Day 5, evil wins. Each night*, guess which Townsfolk a player is: if right, the end comes 1 day sooner. [-1 Outsider]

[LSE] Matchmaker (Townsfolk): Each night*, you may choose 2 living players (not yourself): if differing alignments, one dies.

[LSE] Smuggler (Townsfolk): Each night*, choose any number of players: if more than 1 is evil, you die.

[TMMHH...] Roi Fainéant (Outsider): Minions know which Minion the Demon doesn't know. The Demon thinks they're evil. [+1 Minion, the Demon is good]

[young sonnet]

Roi Fainéant love!!!

[dense moat]

[TBA] Tactician (Townsfolk): Each night*, choose 2 living players: learn which one the Storyteller thinks it’d be better for the Demon to kill tonight.

Simple, flexible, and with a nice dose of spice

[dense moat]

Sooth wishing he had more TF like this to fill out scripts

[young sonnet]

On god

I somehow be making both "important scriptbuilders" and "script warping" TF

[dense moat]

I mean, Seafarer is fine in that role, no?

[young sonnet]

Yeah SF fits, Biblio, Poly, Val, Hussar, etc. I know I have shit lol

[foggy grotto]

you guys are sleeping on sleepwalker ngl

[lean isle]

New World Chaos F.I.B.B.I.N. also goes pretty hard.

[barren zenith]

Don't federal and international contradict eachother?

[lean isle]

Good question

[fast anchor]

25/2: Send your best Clocktower memes!

[ivory ridge]

can i send the entirety of lynchdale almanac here

[fast anchor]

no

[ivory ridge]

you hate fun and whimsy i see

[dense moat]

https://objection.lol/objection/6630104

This one was fun to make

[dense moat]

(based on the NRB Legion video)

idk if it has the music

[sour harness]

SHE DOES

[foggy grotto]

i’ve made a bunch for a while when making a lycanthrope petition but my favorite one is probably still the “slayer shoot this guy one”

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/908774414869479454/1308665654827683892/caption.gif?ex=67bea6dd&is=67bd555d&hm=edfe1a44aa72d38bc9b58b8d7fa19a8e4670aee866057dd3df5c0a098fee88fb&

this is a close second though

[pseudo fulcrum]

I've made a bunch that i'm really happy with

[cold veldt]

this is my masterpiece

[pseudo fulcrum]

this is probably my most well known one

[lean isle]

My best meme so far.
(and the only one I found I've made )

[pseudo fulcrum]

oh, I really like this one too

I forgot about this lmao

[sour harness]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/620323504805380136/1272017500745236550/Sags__Valets.png?ex=67bf23dd&is=67bdd25d&hm=8553801c4c1692598d66ff7bbb35992b93d970ceed5d1d55fc168630de3ab258&

[lean isle]

These are peak characters

[sour harness]

Ty

[severe raven]

Where's "the Savant when they think they have solved the game but have actually been misled by the cool and handsome ST"?

[hollow oasis]

Run it IRL

In exchange I’ll make a kickstarter to hire a lawyer

[sour harness]

I'm not killing my friends irl

[hollow oasis]

Dang

Impossible

Friends are more important than bad BOTC scripts

[foggy grotto]

why didn’t you change witch

it’s the same ability

[tardy wyvern]

you kid but I have been the witch and the storyteller straight up forgot to kill who I picked when they nominated multiple times

[sour harness]

got lazy my bad

[next marlin]

Forgets an important clause: "if they nominate tomorrow and are the Demon or a Demon candidate, they die"

[minor pier]

Sometimes you tunnel hard

most of the memes I make are very game/context-dependent tho

[lost thistle]

when are they going to make canadian canadian catfishing

with kazali

which is on canadian catfishing

[modern plume]

Not necessarily, a system being federal means a central government which is formed by a union of several self-governing states which maintain independent internal governments of their own, in which power and dominion over the territory is entrusted in the totality to the central authority but internal territories are administrated by the individual independent internal states.

So a government which is simultaneously international & federal means a government which has authority over several nations but those nations still have authority within the boundaries of their nation such as in the exercise and enforcement of their laws as well as the central authorities' laws. One such characteristic that comes with this is that the central governing body would therefore not have either any say over citizenship or not a strong say while each nation does like what the EU has, while the US is federated but its states aren't nations and the US federal government has power over questions of citizenship while the states do not.

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: Favourite game you've played as a character you don't like?

[modern plume]

Okay McTaggart, calm down.

[fast anchor]

nycto's username makes this so much better lmao

[shrewd cloud]

Had a Snake Charmer game with the Leviathan managed to convince us the Amne gained my ability and swapped with them. I almost picked the Leviathan N1 too which was wild lmao

This was also a script with a ton of night deaths which I do not think are good on a Leviathan script but the game itself was really fun in a vacuum

[sour harness]

One time I was the steward and we reracked

Then I pulled bounty hunter and the whole getting framed part was fun

[foggy grotto]

SnV game as a barber where i successfully solved the fang gu jump but then didn’t take him into account the fact that the pit hag would make a vortox so at the last second I hard tunneled into my neighbor based on info and they tunneled onto me and the demon just laughed

[vale oxide]

I've never been a character I don't like 😌

[dry sluice]

Favourite game you've played as a character you don't like?
Danganronpa 2

[feral snow]

Mouthwashing

[dense moat]

There was this one time I played as some guy caller “Jurgan Lgbtner”. But apparently someone made a fabled telling me to fuck myself

||Ive never actually been Jurgen in FYF||

[tacit fiber]

HOLY SHIT BASED!

[supple dirge]

I don't know, I've never played as the cult leader

[shrewd cloud]

I haven’t either (and it is overall one of my least favorite characters) though funnily enough the one time I bluffed it as an evil player, everyone actually voted on the cult to happen

Which was pretty awkward when I had to act shocked it didn’t work

[honest tide]

That’s why you gotta have your evil team not vote on your cult

Then you “confirm” them

[pure meadow]

BABA 🔥 🔥 🔥

[tidal quiver]

Time to increment the crier!

[copper quail]

Lady Mist was joking but I personally really rolled Jurgen and while I was not happy at all to be it, the game was really good (and also it was funny to have the ST asking to pick a living player three times in the same night ✨ )

[ivory ridge]

[mm/yyyy/dd]: what are some of the most memorable high priestess ping you've ever made or see someone make as an ST?

[tacit fiber]

Common Mizu L

Day 5 of Rochambeau.

I was confirmed good and was building the world that a Mayor win would never end the game for evil on day 5 and was pushing hard on it.

High Priestess gets sent to me and we both assume that that means that like, my reasoning makes sense.

Turns out I was very wrong and the High Priestess was sent to me not so I could convince them, but so they could convince me.

[fast anchor]

as the person who ran that game: I mean, said HP had info confirming the people you were tunneling on 😭

[ebon idol]

Axo really hit back with “get good”

[fast anchor]

the HP had previously seen (and trusted) the acrobat and cannibal in a trust pair hunting for evil executees

which were the people requiem was pushing on

[barren zenith]

HP is a character that needs to be ran really well

Also, why are people allergic to deducting why they were sent to their ping?

Like it's a social deduction game lol

Those are my thoughts on HP anyways

[fleet hedge]

I think HP needs to be sent to the person they actually benefit most from speaking to

That FT example from that pinned doc I 100% completely disagree with

[fast anchor]

@ivory ridge why did you ask a question that you know will plunge this thread into violent discourse

[barren zenith]

There are too many assumptions about HP pings like why would you be sent to the FT when their info could be right, but also they may be poisoned, drunk, picked their RH, picked a recluse, etc etc

[barren zenith]

This is like a weekly thing at this point