secret thing

[sour harness]

That being said yeah it would work fine

[hollow oasis]

True

[lucid crag]

idk just never know what to do with it but always wanted to add it

[hollow oasis]

But is it cooler?

Yes

[sour harness]

I like it a lot with and even to explain acro deaths on evils

[next marlin]

people find gambler pretty cool ime

[hollow oasis]

Acro is the cooler Gambler

[sour harness]

Generally speaking you need assassin on script

[hollow oasis]

Gambler is still cool tho

[lucid crag]

I see it being nice with Puzzle

[sour harness]

(yaggababble can pull it off too if you know what you're doing)

[hollow oasis]

Puzzle acro… doesn’t work

Mostly because of the environment difference

[sour harness]

Yes, but be careful because that can solve the demon if there aren't enough confounds

[sour harness]

Meh, it can be fine

[next marlin]

I still have this saved and wanted to test it so probably something like this

[hollow oasis]

Acro Puzzlemaster solves Game with low Droison

[lucid crag]

makes sense

[coarse fern]

It needs a fair amount of death mod and droison

[hollow oasis]

Puzzlemaster is really fuckin damaging with too much droison

Which is like

[coarse fern]

Because uh yeah, it’s quite good otherwise

[hollow oasis]

A crap ton of BMR TF

[karmic rose]

Mastermind?

[tacit fiber]

one of my irl group members was looking through a bunch of scripts I made to play one, and at some point they said "Seem like you have a preference for demons, every single script you make has either Vortox or Legion, and a lot have both."

[lucid crag]

I got to work making a script avoiding characters I use often and going for ones I don't:

[hollow oasis]

This is surprising

Even me, the Legion guy, only has ONE legion script

[tacit fiber]

lemme see yours

[hollow oasis]

If I wasn’t on mobile rn, I would

It’s a script about voting

Flowergirl,Town Crier,Pacifist

Are the 3 main TF

[fast anchor]

ooh hold on let me grab all my scripts actually

[ivory ridge]

2/4: what are some script you are not proud of, post it all here not a real prompt

oh

didn't see that

[hollow oasis]

Mizu

Prepare for wall of scripts

[ivory ridge]

(just to be clear, this is a joke prompt)

[fast anchor]

lmao

[ivory ridge]

i was having notification on for this thread for the past half hours

[fast anchor]

ok general's only on 5/10

[hollow oasis]

Does that mean I can post a prompt

[fast anchor]

i'm beating the general allegations

no

[hollow oasis]

Damn

[fast anchor]

(yes)

[hollow oasis]

You say it like that’s a bad thing

[fast anchor]

i think it's still the most common one on there tho

mainly because i write a lot of bmrlikes

[ivory ridge]

7/10 shugenja would beg otherwise

[fast anchor]

fuck wait really

huh, you're right

i AM a hack

[ivory ridge]

also 5/10 vi

[feral snow]

v1.2 is the earliest version i can find on my computer. This was made before Ogre and Banshee came out. It's a full homebrew about anime (so no spoilers)

[feral snow]

v1.10 is way better but still in development

[ivory ridge]

this is not a serious prompt oh no

[ivory ridge]

not the june script? smh

[ivory ridge]

woah midnight oasis redux

[feral snow]

I felt bad about that one

[karmic rose]

I should play midnight oasis

[fast anchor]

this was a joke script but it's still bad and i still posted it

[karmic rose]

anyways this is a death cycling script obviously. i did not put much thought into it

[fast anchor]

death cycling and no mez? smh

[feral snow]

actually

my answer is fuck you redux

[ivory ridge]

this is such a goated script idk what you mean

[ivory ridge]

😳

i-i mean

wait isn't that the 53 jinxes script

[feral snow]

yup

[fast anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/john-mulaney-and-i-said-promise-new-in-town-mulaney-promise-gif-18523198

fuck mizu made the same joke

[acoustic chasm]

This was the first script I posted here

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/john-mulaney-and-i-said-promise-new-in-town-mulaney-promise-gif-18523198

[fast anchor]

ofc bestie

[fast anchor]

You might be evil

[acoustic chasm]

It is terrible

[ivory ridge]

oh the legendary script that win acrobat competition

[acoustic chasm]

yes

It flipping won the acrobat competition

And looking at it I have no clue how

[fast anchor]

oh actually no this is a script i took seriously and now realize it's so so bad holy shit

fang gu bmr why

[acoustic chasm]

whats so

oh

thats not that bad?

[fast anchor]

admittedly i was cooking with sc

but boomdandy + 3 billion science roles is just not it

[feral snow]

i'm noticing a theme with a lot of these

[acoustic chasm]

i mean it has drunk on BMR which is

[fast anchor]

it's fang gu drunk as outsider mod

[acoustic chasm]

Oh

oh that was your outsider mod

I seee

[fast anchor]

i had marionette but i didn't quite understand why it worked on lunar eclipse

(it's because of the puzzlemaster)

[acoustic chasm]

is "why it worked on lunar eclipe" lunatic?

oh

puzzlemaster?

why

[fast anchor]

science + marionette typically is a bad combo

[acoustic chasm]

ohhh

ye

[fast anchor]

because droison tends to be pretty obvious on them

(e.g. sailorpicking someone who gets TL confirmed later and dying)

so if it's obvious you're the marionette that doesn't help your team

[acoustic chasm]

ye

but puzzlemaster be different

[fast anchor]

PM helps assuage marionette because it's

1. a very potent evil bluff that can help explain a marionette (lycanthrope) who can't kill or marionette (innkeeper) who just got killed through
2. a puzzledrunk sailor or TL that town is tunneling on being marionette can seriously fuck with a good team who wastes 2 executions killing their neighbors

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[fast anchor]

and, as a feedback loop, a droisoned science role that has the ability to lie about their stuff not working is inclined to do so even if they're not actually the marionette and are just puzzledrunk, but have a very different social read compared to, say, inforoles getting info they don't believe

because you learn that you're probably either puzzledrunk or the marionette when the ST announces deaths in the morning and your eyes are open instead of at night (where you can steel your reaction)

what i'm trying to say is that lunar eclipse is so so good even though it's got a lot of the traditional no-nos on there (like nd + sailor/ik/tl/lycan) it's really stellar 🥹

[acoustic chasm]

yee

i love when a script does stuff that isn't traditional

and succeeds

[coarse fern]

Ehhh well I’m kinda proud, I shouldn’t be tho

[feral snow]

Not enough Legion jinxes

Needs Minstrel

[coarse fern]

No Minstrel ruins Math solving for poisoner

That’s like, script building 101

[gusty bear]

oooh lets see if i can find my first script

what on earth was i cooking

[fast anchor]

you burned down the kitchen

[gusty bear]

why is courtier on here

why is psycho on here

[fast anchor]

drunk the heretic/psycho???

wait drunking the pg is hilarious

good shout dylan

[gusty bear]

why did i put pukka on a heretic script

and poisoner!

[fast anchor]

pukka/pg too 😭

[gusty bear]

i think i intended to bootleg that one

[dense moat]

I feel like this one must have issues but i cant remeber exactly which

[next marlin]

You know I just went back to find the first custom I ever made and it's...like, it's not good...but I've played way worse scripts

However v1 of this that I can't find now had Zombuul and Moonchild 💀

[hollow oasis]

I can't believe y'all have scripts you aren't proud of

I edited my first script so goddamn much it's barely the same but still

[next marlin]

I doubt you're proud of the first draft of all your scripts

[hollow oasis]

true

Well

Except the first one yes

[sour harness]

idk quadjank only ever got like 2 edits

and that's the script yall seem to like so 😭

anyways here's this monstrosity

[hollow oasis]

uh huh

and this is bad why

joke

[sour harness]

look at it

it breaks so many laws

[hollow oasis]

no i uhhh

got it

[sour harness]

stormcaught oracle btw

and the pois can't choose the oracle

(but spy and recluse are right there lol)

[tacit fiber]

I honestly don’t see the problems with this script

Other than Gossip without multikilling demons

[next marlin]

Oh yeah I remember seeing this and thinking "sure looks like a fun script to roll vigor on"

[sour harness]

• 2 extra evils
• recluspy oracle
• unbluffable gossip
• not even remotely enough zombuul support
• demon movement + zombuul
• frickin fang gu
• frickin poisoner

nope thats not how new lines work

[next marlin]

I always thought you were the one who liked quadjank and everyone else was better characterized as "fascinated by it"

[sour harness]

fixed

[sour harness]

i mean yeah

[next marlin]

spycluse oracle is a good interaction

oracle needs spycluse/vortox/both

[sour harness]

also clockmaker casually destroying most bags and being a blank token in the rest

[sour harness]

it needs vortox

[next marlin]

oracle with just vortox is usually too oppressive against evil nightkills demons, on snv it's fine in fang gu but not really in vigor and on most customs it's just not fine

(and no dashii does a lot of the work of making it fine in snv)

[tacit fiber]

it's really not

Spy Oracle = based

Recluse Oracle = cringe bad

[next marlin]

Oracle recluse is the better one of those

[sour harness]

No, if anything it's the other way around

[next marlin]

Stop killing the recluse d1 for no reason

[sour harness]

Recluse also has a voice

Spy can tick numbers up or down with no warning

[ivory ridge]

because of how perfect it is?

[tacit fiber]

Recluse Oracle is too damaging

[fast anchor]

skill issue

[fast anchor]

me when the stormcatcher was bootlegged to prevent poisonlocking the oracle 🤩

[zenith lotus]

say hello to my droison spam script 😉

no dashii virgin is fine guys, there's like 15 other ways for it to fail

[sour harness]

And spy oracle isn't???

[next marlin]

I thought you were gonna go with Damsel Twins

[zenith lotus]

no im actually proud of reinventing SCFTD before i knew it existed

oh btw vati, i was going through my history for this and it turns out i made a (horrible) 6 outsider kazali script 4 months before you came out with CC 😉

[tacit fiber]

outsider ability =/= minion ability

[ivory ridge]

send

[zenith lotus]

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1234619660641763368

i like to think of my bad scripts as learning experiences, and that was me learning why you need 13 townsfolk on a script 😉

[ivory ridge]

wait

this script kinda fucks

🔥

[sour harness]

Why is baron here I'm scared

[ivory ridge]

bootlegger rule: ST will add at minimum 2 extra outsiders into the bag, but Kazali must choose one of their minion to be Baron

[acoustic chasm]

I feel that spy oracle is better than recluse oracle.

If you execute an evil after a recluse oracle, it can be completely hidden. It cannot be hidden by a spy oracle.

Yes spy can make an unexpected uptick, but the spy registering as good feels more solvable than the boffin's execution being hidden

That's my vibe

That's my vibe

[tacit fiber]

common Autumn W

[sour harness]

It ABSOLUTELY can be hidden by spy oracle

Spy dies -> registers as whatever
Any night -> spy registers as evil
The next day another evil dies -> spy registers as good

That second evil is invisible to the oracle

[next marlin]

Yeah, the outsider is going to tell you and the minion isn't

[sour harness]

The way they affect oracle isn't incredibly different, but one adds a +1/+0 to known values in a way that good has some counterplay to, meanwhile spy is a -1/-0 to all values ever

[tacit fiber]

"yeah sorry buddy your info is kinda just fucked"

[next marlin]

Yeah that's what recluse does

[sour harness]

Yeah but it wasn't for the first 3 nights

[next marlin]

You can trivially counterplay it by not killing the recluse d1 for no reason

(and if the demon wants to induce it on purpose they have to kill the recluse rather than 'literally anybody else')

[sour harness]

It's also misreg on a role that cares about the difference in its info across nights, similar to empath, but unlike empath it never loses targets

Resurrection doesn't count and you know it

[next marlin]

oh shit prof spy oracle is BASED actually

[sour harness]

I gotta make prof spy work one of these days

[coarse fern]

Register as evil to the oracle and good to the prof?

[next marlin]

I was waiting for someone to mention vigor so I could write 200 paragraphs as usual

[sour harness]

With empath, neighboring a recluse or a spy can trash a night or so of info, but once they die the info is good again. With oracle, once they're dead, all their info is trashed

[next marlin]

Vigor is the ~only demon who is so incentivized to fuck with an oracle as to instakill the recluse as a consequence

And, obviously, benefits from killing a recluse independently of that

But vigor also has the weakness that its counterplay to townsfolk abilities is mechanically limited, while simultaneously having to deal with more of them

It also, if playing ~optimally, wants to kill its most killable minion as early as possible because the longer minions are alive the more likely their masks are to slip, and vigor has an incredibly hard time dealing with members of the evil team being socially obvious

[sour harness]

It's also just a big pool of players usually, which tends to play poorly with misreg. Chef works because of how you build worlds around it

[next marlin]

If it wants to kill the recluse to fuck with the oracle it has to do this before killing any minions, which pushes both its ability to kill minions later and its ability to kill townsfolk even later than that

A weird emergent consequence that shows up while playing vigor is that by the point you can kill townsfolk you don't necessarily want to

Because you need to frame very aggressively, and you risk killing into your frames when you're killing sober townsfolk

This is especially true given that it tends to be at its most interesting on scripts with positional demons (e.g. No Dashii on homescript) and other misinfo-but-it's-weird demons (e.g. Pukka, Lleech)

So you have to think so incredibly carefully about who you're killing because otherwise you risk e.g. obliterating dashii worlds, which leads town to fall back on vigor and go "oh, wait, if it's vigor it's literally just you, let's kill you"

(because if town can determine it's vigor they can probably just hardsolve it's you lol)

So you can totally go out of your way to kill the recluse n2 to ruin the oracle's day but it's still a super dangerous tradeoff against the many other weird considerations this demon has as to not just be the trivially correct answer

The real problem being that oracle is just too strong against vigor most of the time

[dry sluice]

If the vigor kills the recluse, do you poison a townsfolk neighbor or is that too much

[sour harness]

You said you're not too interested in homebrew right vati

Because this exact kind of thought process is what I designed my hb script around

[sour harness]

Yes absolutely

Unless evil is utterly sweeping

But, they probably aren't

[next marlin]

Always, and it's super based

The thing about Vigormortis is it's a mechanically undertuned demon that works by exploiting crazy and extremely OP interactions

SnV evil in general does this but Vigor takes everything SnV evil is and exaggerates it to broken-in-both-directions extremes

If you think an interaction is too evilsided, it's at the right balance point

[tacit fiber]

"what about making a random person the demon with no signal, warning or real counterplay?"

[next marlin]

-# you did this on purpose didn't you

[next marlin]

see that's why oracle is fun in fang gu

pithag jump, I dare you

[fast anchor]

no, actually, but I'm glad I did

I should vigor react you more often

[next marlin]

I gotta write the vigor wall of text when I finish the outsider wall of text that I'm writing immediately after the 95% complete extra evils wall of text (just working on the conclusion and the footnotes)

[zenith lotus]

no it doesnt 😭

[next marlin]

kazali react

[ivory ridge]

ok hear me out

there is a way to resolve kazali/lot baron

@next marlin if you have to make a kazali baron jinx

👀

[feral snow]

:(

[ivory ridge]

what would it be

[next marlin]

idk

[ivory ridge]

its joever

[next marlin]

it just feels like an interaction where it's fine for it to not work

[coarse fern]

Active Baron

[feral snow]

damn i wish people felt the same way with other things

[ivory ridge]

man I want to make a Kazali LoT Baron script so bad

i mean LoT and Baron works fine

[feral snow]

https://tenor.com/view/lie-detector-gif-9388384639890532829

i need you to hear this gif

[ivory ridge]

ok tell me why LoT Baron isn’t goated

[hollow oasis]

Ok LoT baron is good

Mizu is right actually

So

You deal with that existential crisis you’re going to gain from that

[ivory ridge]

just

put 2 extra outsiders in

😭

its not that deep

[hollow oasis]

Yea

And if outsiders turn into minions

don’t put a baron

[ivory ridge]

then you non baron it

[hollow oasis]

It’s genius why didn’t I think of that

[ivory ridge]

but also kazali lot is normally a +1

[next marlin]

Kazali yes

Typhon probably shouldn't be

[ivory ridge]

nyooooo

[next marlin]

Because outsiders are counterbalances against the townsfolk-minion ratio

[ivory ridge]

ok but a typhon script
with 5 outsiders is really funny

like really funny

[feral snow]

2/5 time isn't real: Relevant--What's a 2+ character interaction that you think is awful but doesn't need to be fixed and can stay bad?

I'm gonna say Yagga + Gossip

[hollow oasis]

Legion Athiest

Goon/Puzzlemaster Summoner

[next marlin]

doesn't need to existis this "doesn't need to be fixed" or

[feral snow]

yes

[next marlin]

edit post

[next marlin]

pm summoner needs fixing

[feral snow]

i was distracted whoops

I think goon summoner could get the same jinx as the other ones and be inconsequential

PM Summoner is rough

Legion/Atheist is a really good answer though

[hollow oasis]

Legion Leviathan

Legion AlHad

Legion Riot

Legion Knight

Legion Gambler

Legion Organ Grinder

Legion Fearmonger

Legion Vizier

Legion Psychopath

[next marlin]

alchemist 🔥

[hollow oasis]

Alchemist can fix about up to cere

[next marlin]

If a literal legion of evils can't frame an alch psycho that's their fault

[hollow oasis]

Alch psycho is OP

[next marlin]

Not when it kills a co-good it isn't

[hollow oasis]

But also you can’t execute the Alch psycho

Which kinda sucks

Normally The loudness goes up to About Evil Twin

With Alch(or other TF that add frame space) it goes up to cere

[ivory ridge]

Legion + anything

[hollow oasis]

Can you not

[ivory ridge]

fine

Poli Heretic

[hollow oasis]

Poli heretic exists

||Base 6 Interaction moment||

Legion poli

Huntsman Damsel -Heretic

[foggy grotto]

Poli + Fang Gu isn’t great but whatever

[ivory ridge]

poli can't even be on b6 😭

vati

smh

[fresh shard]

Leviathan/bait roles

[acoustic chasm]

Sure, but the Oracle knows at least 1 evil is dead

[karmic rose]

I kind of love magician/summoner, not sure if it's unironically bad or just beautifully jank

[sour harness]

Not when they get a 0

If they get a 1 n3 or later, they have no idea who they're reading or when it happened

[tardy wyvern]

Typhon/Kazali and Magician

[acoustic chasm]

In the example you gave, you said.

"What if evil player is executed after Spy/Recluse"

Spy the number has to be a 1 minimum. The Oracle knows them getting 1 means 1-2 evils dead.

Recluse, the Oracle getting a 1 means 0-1 evils dead.

I think for worldbuilding knowing 1-2 evils dead is less damaging than 0-1 evils dead

Yes the Spy can lay low under a 0, but either they do lay low under that 0 for a while until another evil dies, or they stop misregistering to frame a good player. Either way, once that number changes, the oracle knows 1-2 evils are dead

In theory that's how I feel

In practice, ye maybe the recluse being loud is much better for an oracle

[sour harness]

Oh that's what you meant my bad

[acoustic chasm]

Yea. There is 1 big thing which the pro-Reclusers have

Which is smaller 1 minion gamws

That situation of "evil dying after spy" might not even happen

(Or if it does, it ends the game :P)

I think though if I'm an oracle getting a 1 on a recluse script, I feel much more on edge and that info is much less useful than a 1 on a spy script

And if I am an oracle getting a 0 on a recluse script ye I'm confident in it. A 0 on a spy script isn't bad either though, because that makes me start thinking "hmm, are they all good or is one of the minions a dead spy"

[sour harness]

Sure but a 1 on a recluse script is just like a 0 on a spy script

[sour harness]

I mean is that really any different from the recluse version

Idrk why I'm defending this tho, I don't like either interaction at all

[acoustic chasm]

It feels different because the recluse gives every minion a spy ability

But ye it's not my fave interaction either

Players don't value oracle info enough to treat a recluse like a sweetheart

The oracle might not even be in play

[severe raven]

The people who think Fisherman Recluse can interact

[acoustic chasm]

Its tge type of thing some of the game creators like

But not the playerrs

[shrewd cloud]

I don’t like the interaction either but it is 100% legal and even in the tips and tricks section of the Wiki

[acoustic chasm]

Is it a funny way to doscourage d1 fisherman advice?

[severe raven]

(It goes completely against the spirit of Fisherman)

(Fisherman is not supposed to be about what’s true or false but what helps you win)

[acoustic chasm]

the others would argue it goes completely against the spirit of recluse

which is messing with good's info by existing and looking eviler than the evil team

[severe raven]

Chambermaid also is immune to Recluse

[acoustic chasm]

now I don't think Recluse General/Fisherman is good

[shrewd cloud]

I don’t really think D1 advice should be discouraged. It can be difficult to come up with D1 advice since the game hasn’t had much time to breathe but if a Fisherman wants D1 advice, I’ll give them D1 advice

[severe raven]

And Artists can tailor their question to avoid recluses

[acoustic chasm]

sure but that's because chambermaid doesn't look for good/evil

actually

i'm not gonna defend the game

it is stuck together with duct-tape

and its internal logic doesn't make sense

but it's still fantastic

i think recluse can work with advice characters

The issue is that I don't think recluse is super great with characters that get broad, grimoire spanning information (with exceptions of course, like chef)

And General, High Priestess and Fisherman has the Storyteller look at the entire game right now, measure it up, then give their judgement

High Priestess is the least worst

Because its specific

But general+fisherman (and stuff like Oracle) look at so many people, it can get pretty mean

[dense moat]

2/5: You just rolled Magician or Poppy Grower (your choice). What is your general strategy for using your ability? Alternatively, if you are a Minion or Demon affected by one of those evil disruptors, what do you do to survive/find your team?

[sour harness]

Poppy: bluff legion
Magician: bluff goblin bluffing magician

[fresh shard]

1. Look confused, try to get an evil to out to me, don't sweat it if I get executed too early. Maybe whispertrack a bit.

2. Push on people with confidence and hope for the best. Probably protect the Magician if it's that, and try to pursue a strategy that doesn't rely on me knowing the rest of my team. If I'm a minion, I'm probably going to play a bit more chaotically than I otherwise would in PG -- aggro being drawn to me is aggro not being drawn to my demon. Depends which minion ofc

[hollow oasis]

2/6: Make a category of BOTC characters, such as “Dark Triad”(Vigor,Fang Gu,Imp) or Chaos Triad(Legion,Heretic,Athiest)

[feral snow]

"Beginner's Fallacy" Triad: Legion, Kazali, Yaggababble

Demons that beginners love to put on their custom scripts where it either egregiously doesn't work or is too complicated for them

[feral snow]

Play chaotically

I can play solo Minion or solo Demon pretty well

playing Magician, I'd want to emulate that

for Poppy Grower, I'd probably play more reclusive and make up info only when needed (sort of like Damsel)

[young sonnet]

The "God there's not enough info characters in this game" trio of TC, Flowergirl, and Savant

Literally the reason I became a homebrewer was because I couldn't make the scripts I wanted with the limited TF we have

[ivory ridge]

"Rollback Trio": Legion, Vizier, PG
Self Explanatory

[karmic slate]

Mafia Killers: Godfather , Assassin , Yaggababble . Used for when you want some extra deaths but whenever

[karmic rose]

the "surprisingly gamebreaking": math, chambermaid, artist

[acoustic chasm]

"I need outsider mod" Baron, Godfather, Xaan

[next vault]

People dont realize how strong is CM in both BMR and customs

Did a "choose your role", went Chambermaid and p much solved the game (but lost because Heretic).

CM's biggest strength is that it's incredibly good at noticing players who are clearly bluffing. With Dreamer you might get Savant + Cerenovus but with CM you know that someone IS (or ISN'T) waking up.

CM 1s are rough but 0 and 2 are very solid numbers

[ivory ridge]

tbf in a choose your role, you should always remember bluffing something chambermaid-able

[gusty bear]

One of the many reasons that fish is the best wizard bluff

[tacit fiber]

“Terrible Three”: Wizard, Amnesiac, Atheist.
STs really need to know how to deal with these three

[next vault]

Amnesiac as the issue of being unsolvable a lot of times

[fast anchor]

"the good team wins this game of sects and violets":

[tacit fiber]

"the good team loses this game of SnV":

[ivory ridge]

oh actually

"Filler Trio":

role of all times

[honest tide]

The “these roles are simple but way stronger than they look” triad:

[acoustic chasm]

"Wait, what do you mean I dont belong on BMR?"

[honest tide]

LMAO

So true

[ivory ridge]

ojo in shambles

[acoustic chasm]

I feel Ojo works

[ivory ridge]

actually ojo in bmr

isn't bad

[acoustic chasm]

Yez

[ivory ridge]

it's like a pukka

0 death per night and what not

[acoustic chasm]

If Ojo was on BMR, I think it kinda works

At least better than Yagg

[next vault]

There's some characters that work in BMR

Such as

[acoustic chasm]

Yea!

[next vault]

Or

[acoustic chasm]

Yagg can work on BMR likes, just remember that protection gets less effective and just don't run it with gossip

[ivory ridge]

yagg totally work in bmr

[acoustic chasm]

But gossip is an iconic BMR character

[ivory ridge]

just replace gossip with something else

acrobat

[acoustic chasm]

Yea

[next vault]

Yag doesnt work in BMR

[ivory ridge]

ok i was meant to say acrobat then delete it

but i keep missing the delete button

so it's just there now

[acoustic chasm]

I think Yagg can work in BMR likes

[next vault]

Ehh

[ivory ridge]

i mean

one could argue that death in bmr, beside gossip

is a bit varied due to the shit ton amount of death manip anyway

i think it's fine for yagg to be in if gossip is out

[acoustic chasm]

I like Grimm chorus yagg

[ivory ridge]

she grimm on my chrous

hehe

what is it again?

yag-vigor...

lot is china shop right?

[acoustic chasm]

Yea

China Shop is the LoT Yagg Vigor script

At least the one I made

[honest tide]

The “Unsolvable Trio”:

[karmic rose]

the "difficult to put on scripts" trio:

[hollow oasis]

“The Loud Ones”

[dense moat]

The Tough Pieces:

( i dont see people use these as much)

[dense moat]

I would also accept Twin in place of Professor

[acoustic chasm]

for good reason

[hollow oasis]

People use Professor

[acoustic chasm]

Ye

Professor is more used than zombuul

[dense moat]

then you can mentally sub in Twin

[hollow oasis]

People also use twin

[dense moat]

Huh

[hollow oasis]

Comintern

Heretic

Heretic doesn’t get used much

[dense moat]

Courtier & Zombuul still stand tho. Ive never seen real use of either outside BMR and even less in BMR

[hollow oasis]

Courtier is exactly on harold holts revenge

But courtier is OP

[dense moat]

technically it does but by people who really shouldnt use it, in places it shouldnt be

[hollow oasis]

Quadjank wants it

/hj

[foggy grotto]

false

[hollow oasis]

Kenoboi saves day

[karmic rose]

chat is twin/spy anything at all. I feel like spy allows for very easy twin bluffs among the evil team, but they're otherwise pretty different and twin is hard to slot in

[hollow oasis]

You have an incredibly stupid interaction right there

[foggy grotto]

you should make the spy the good twin 😎😎😎

[hollow oasis]

it’s kinda funny

[acoustic chasm]

Here is a list of silly twin interactions

[hollow oasis]

Twin sees spy as twin

[karmic rose]

I always want to bluff evil twin but I'm scared to in case there's a real twin

[hollow oasis]

They registered as good

[acoustic chasm]

That's a bad interaction

[hollow oasis]

I’ve seen worse

[acoustic chasm]

Because it gives evil too easy a win

[hollow oasis]

Like alch et seeing goblin

[acoustic chasm]

All the spy does is act evil

[hollow oasis]

good cannot win

[acoustic chasm]

And get executed

and evil wins

[hollow oasis]

They don’t even need to out twin

[acoustic chasm]

Kazali-Twin: The evil twin has a free bluff from their previous character, so can safely deny being in a twin pair.

[hollow oasis]

They just elect to die

[acoustic chasm]

Boffin: Now the Demon and a Minion both know a character that is out of play. They know what to do

Spy: Can pretend to be in an evil twin pair with another player, whether or not that other player is good or evil

[hollow oasis]

Evil twin centric script

Needs legion

[acoustic chasm]

I don't think denying you're in a twin pair is worth, but it might be

[karmic rose]

it's always safe to execute someone who's denying being a twin

[hollow oasis]

Also add alchemist

[acoustic chasm]

But it definitely is possible

[acoustic chasm]

Not true

For example

[hollow oasis]

When claiming evil twin

[acoustic chasm]

Ok True on SnV

[hollow oasis]

Makes you look good

[acoustic chasm]

But as I said, Kazali evil Twin

The good twin can claim to be in the evil twin pair and that they are the Savant

The evil one can say 'no what are you talking about, I'm the Town Crier', and they really were the Town Crier

they just got transformed

Equally, an evil minion can just pretend to be in a twin pair with anyone

[karmic rose]

right but no good twin is ever going to deny being in a twin pair, unless I'm missing something?

[zenith lotus]

spy

but thats it

[sour harness]

"socials only"

[acoustic chasm]

And that player who is really not in a twin pair is like 'no I'm not'

[hollow oasis]

Legion really wants to be with this yall

It’s like

Perfect

[acoustic chasm]

Yeah there is no reason for a good twin to deny

Unless they are like a snake charmer

[karmic rose]

and they're a safe execution! not evil aligned but they won't end the game

[hollow oasis]

Add fang gu+pithag

[acoustic chasm]

But you can create situations where both the player claiming to be in the twin pair and the player denying it can be evil

From an outside perspective

[fast anchor]

"I'm putting these on a Heretic script:"

[hollow oasis]

No Huntsman?

[fast anchor]

I don't see it as commonly tbh

[hollow oasis]

Huh

[coarse fern]

Fake outsider trio:

[hollow oasis]

It’s so damn good with heretic tho

[hollow oasis]

???

[fast anchor]

klutz fallacy 🗣️ 🔥 🔥

[hollow oasis]

Wait ah

Needs heretic

[coarse fern]

Klutz is an info role

[coarse fern]

I was going to but heretic can backfire really hard

[sour harness]

Klutz is like virgin if it was nothing like virgin

[coarse fern]

So true

[ivory ridge]

i mean klutz is probably a virgin

[sour harness]

It's a virgin or a lose button

But it's also fully bluffable

[hollow oasis]

Klutz losses are really funny tho

[ivory ridge]

i was not talking about that

😭

[acoustic chasm]

Ogre's ability is 'I'm just there"

fren 🥺

[ivory ridge]

kinda funny

an ogre is less powerful than a gnome

[hollow oasis]

Lies

Gnomes can get exiled

Therefore, less strong

[acoustic chasm]

Gnome is better because of everyone making gnome puns

[tacit fiber]

"Doesn't Work in Longtext": "All of SnV"

-# this is the prompt right

[acoustic chasm]

hmm, with yagg i feel like i need to gather more information

[feral snow]

Long text Yagga kind of works

[coarse fern]

It’s just really weak

[feral snow]

But finding set phrases is a bit too easy

[acoustic chasm]

you need to be much more generous

ye

[fast anchor]

i mean, as a matter of principle you can just command-f and win a lot of the time

[acoustic chasm]

you can just find the phrase

[feral snow]

Having experienced it, finding the phrase will lose Yagga

Boomdandy and Riot are way better for that

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[tacit fiber]

(gather more information was the yagphrase of a notable game)

[ivory ridge]

riot longtext

[tacit fiber]

RIGHT RIOT AND BOOMDANDY

[ivory ridge]

best experience ever!

[hollow oasis]

You have to list every SNV character

[fast anchor]

Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch, I was there when it was written

[acoustic chasm]

its time consuming but verges on trivial

[fast anchor]

Also, matter of principle was the first text yag phrase in the server's history #1232741500035530762

I'm no stranger to the bit :3

[hollow oasis]

Longtext phrases need to be literally “the”

[acoustic chasm]

it is just not designed for games where you can look through what everyone is saying perfectly

[fast anchor]

Something I want to experiment with is giving the yag 2-3 similar phrases they are able to say

[coarse fern]

Also why is poisoner here

[fast anchor]

so ctrl-f doesn't work

[acoustic chasm]

that probably will be much nicer

[fast anchor]

but if you can get the essence of what the phrase could be it could work

[hollow oasis]

Give em the phrase of “the”

Watch chaos

[acoustic chasm]

what gives yagg its charm in irl games is that someone saying the exact same thing over and over is socially off

[fast anchor]

so something like

"we should trust"
"I wanna trust"
"I'm trusting"

[acoustic chasm]

mm

[fast anchor]

as all admissible

[acoustic chasm]

idk

[coarse fern]

I’m trusting Axolator wouldn’t give the yaggababble multiple statements

3D chess right there

[hollow oasis]

Hear me out the phrase is just “trust”

[fast anchor]

omg i didn't know you're microwave besties with requiem

[sour harness]

The phrase is "phrase"

[hollow oasis]

GENIUS

[tacit fiber]

omg

there are more like me

[zenith lotus]

the one time i was the yaggababble my phrase was "the yaggababble phrase is"

[ivory ridge]

axol, your phrase is "that's fair"

[hollow oasis]

Ojo kills I assume

[coarse fern]

The yaggababble phrase is the yaggababble phrase is

Two kills

[tacit fiber]

I think that

if the ST knows the Yag in longtext

[coarse fern]

They’ll never see it coming

[acoustic chasm]

tell you what

[fast anchor]

i've seen "is that the Yaggababble phrase" before

[tacit fiber]

you can make it something they like normally say

[fast anchor]

yeah, but the problem is something they repeat

[tacit fiber]

like if I was the yaggababble with "mm" then like

[acoustic chasm]

that was something Parlour normally said

[tacit fiber]

it's possible but also

"that's just a thing she says"

[fast anchor]

which is less common

"hey can you stop saying that we think it's a yag phrase"

[hollow oasis]

Bruh

When people think you’re Yaggababble:

[tacit fiber]

"1. me saying mm is a reflex 2. I'm not changing speech patterns for a social deduction game sweetie"

[hollow oasis]

Say NO

and immediately claim goblin

[tacit fiber]

just execute me (I have a SW)

[fast anchor]

your yag phrase would not be two letters

[tacit fiber]

mmm

perchance

[acoustic chasm]

mm

ok

[fast anchor]

mmmmmmmmmm

https://tenor.com/view/chicken-microwave-spin-gif-22764274

[tacit fiber]

mmmmmmm

[hollow oasis]

“Po game”

[fast anchor]

requiem your yaggababble phrase is "i think the high priestess is poorly-designed"

[hollow oasis]

Axo Yaggababble phrases shouldn’t be able to be said 15 times without detection

Cmon

[acoustic chasm]

ok weird idea

and it probably doesn't work with most phrases, and I'm probably overcomplicating it

Just give words which they can rearange into any order

[tacit fiber]

I like the implication of like people not recognizing me making random strays at HP while it's not on script

[fast anchor]

i think it still fails to ctrl-f

[acoustic chasm]

should we trust that? I think we should trust it imo

[fast anchor]

considering your knee-jerk reaction to HP on a script is to yell at it i mean yeah

[acoustic chasm]

maybe that narrows the phrase down too much because not everything can work like taht

[tacit fiber]

this is true but I also don't play HP scripts so I'd need to say this while it isn't on script 😭

[fast anchor]

yeah i picked up on that one it's a good bit

[acoustic chasm]

hmm ye

[sour harness]

I'll run a HP script for you where it's out of play and I garden you as the yagga

[karmic slate]

squ4ll no 😭

[fast anchor]

this is how we can take botc back from the tpi bigwigs

[tacit fiber]

mmm this is

a convincing reason to play a HP script

[fast anchor]

it can be a bluff ^^

[tacit fiber]

aaa

me syaing mm there wasn't even like intentional 😭

HYSTREX WHAT DO YOU MEAN ALSAAHIR 😭

[sour harness]

It has 3 a's

2 are in a row even

[gray ridge]

Droisonspam trio

[tacit fiber]

Poisoner in longtext just looms over the town with its unsolvability

[karmic slate]

The "trust the Minion can be quiet and not out themselves to hide the demon type on the script please but in reality I know they'll become immediately outed" :

[gray ridge]

"who runs those?"

[gray ridge]

Loud psycho is so based

[minor pier]

New OG is fire and I totally run it

[gray ridge]

Based

I really like new og

[fast anchor]

OG is very fun

[lucid crag]

"Dumbasses": Village Idiot, Village Idiot, Village Idiot

[gray ridge]

Fake triad:

[sour harness]

well at that point it's

[sour harness]

( drunk) ( drunk) ( drunk)

[feral snow]

You think that’s a triad, but it’s not

[sour harness]

it's not no

sometimes they work

marionette + drunk is meh

[feral snow]

The dark triad doesn’t work and it inspired this

[sour harness]

luna mario is entirely fine

[cold veldt]

Kazali’s Triad:

the characters that you should not put with kazali because they will always get picked

[barren zenith]

Safety net triad:

[sour harness]

goblin wants in but itll never quite fit in with the cool kids

[gray ridge]

Lunatic is pretty easily solvable unless you have poppy grower

[barren zenith]

Idk, magician, marionette, politician and lycanthrope/mayor can produce an effective facade imo

[fast anchor]

^^^ scripts like Trust and Lunar Eclipse frequently produce Lunatics who can't figure it out until mid-late

neither has a PG

[barren zenith]

And HHR!

[fast anchor]

true true! Though that one is Leviathan

[barren zenith]

Iirc

[fast anchor]

so you don't have to worry about kills not being followed

trust has Magician/Marionette/Mayor (the latter being able to explain why a kill doesn't go your way)

and LE has those and Lycanthrope so multiple kills can be missed and explained

[next vault]

Alch???? What?

[honest tide]

Psycho over poisoner I think. Other than that yeah totally true

[fast anchor]

imo alch goes on three kinds of scripts

• legion
• heretic
• LM if you're careful

[next vault]

Why Heretic?

[fast anchor]

just from playing a ton of scripts that's where I've found it tends to work best

It's an experience thing and I couldn't articulate exactly what appeals

Alch-SW is huge on a heretic/legion script e.g.

[next vault]

I think Alch is great in certain specific scenarios

It has to be built around

[fast anchor]

agreed, legion heretic lm :3

[next vault]

I'd say it can definitely work in more scenarios

[fresh shard]

"Why, when I have a rules question, is it always you three?":

[sour harness]

Abilities designed to help the evil team tend to do a pretty good job of helping the evil team, so if it's wielded by a good player trying to push evil's wincon, it makes sense that it might work

[foggy grotto]

The “No these roles actually don’t work on BMR” trio

[sour harness]

Also, minion abilities tend to be extremely powerful when wielded by townsfolk, and despite being extremely memey, heretic does have some balancing qualities to it

[tacit fiber]

u missed Pukka

[honest tide]

Also math

Really it’s boffin math pukka imo

[tacit fiber]

nah

it's

[foggy grotto]

pukka isn’t that complicated outside of BMR

and math is only complicated outside of SnV

so i’d say boffin LM are still up there

[burnt roost]

why does this thread exist and why was i pinged here

[halcyon ermine]

same

lmfao

[tardy wyvern]

welcome to secret thing

[manic sinew]

What is this

[next marlin]

the other real #general

[supple dirge]

Secret thing vs general

[coarse fern]

Secret thing is definitely evil twin

[fast anchor]

yes, but I think that secret thing is the alch-evil twin

and general is the real evil

[hollow oasis]

I love alch evil twin

[coarse fern]

I think that’s weird enough it makes sense

[foggy grotto]

i like how so many new people are discovering secret thing today

I think we’re sensing a lack of content that is normally filled today and thus were scrolling deep through the threads

[next marlin]

I think this time it's going to be the Occultist

[zenith lotus]

vati, the release already happened

it was orthodontist 😉

[feral snow]

2/7/2025: Make a copypasta that shittymorphs into you talking about the Occultist (https://www.reddit.com/user/shittymorph/comments/)

[fast anchor]

what the fuck

[next marlin]

Squall why are you a r*dditor

[feral snow]

it's my social media of choice though i'm growing to hate it

[fast anchor]

vati aren't you also on the botc reddit

[next marlin]

Not really, I look at it sometimes because I want to see what squall is doing

[fast anchor]

something something glass house

[next marlin]

I was on it earlier so I could make fun of overrating Dreamer

But I haven't actively used reddit in several years so I just use it now to stalk squall (mizupost goes here)

[feral snow]

I think it's really interesting how new people are discovering this thread. I remember when I first found it, it was because someone mentioned them in #general . Having heard the name before, I figured 'eh why not find out what this is all about' and I became obsessed. It's so fun answering random questions every day, and coming up with my own (Wizard wish question) was really fun. I love getting to hear the opinions of all the respected community members in this thread. Even when the questions aren't even remotely botc related, I always feel like I learn something new each and every day. Just like the Occultist is mad that they learn something new every day, or they might be executed, but once per game, they learn a fact.

[zenith lotus]

this is amazing

[coarse fern]

Since it’s a copypasta I now have this copied and will use it every time I see occultist mentioned 🫡

[feral snow]

I was inspired by u/shittymorph who has for like 6 years made similar tangents and ended with describing "how back in nineteen ninety eight the undertaker threw mankind off hell in a cell and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcers table."

[feral snow]

that was a really insightful post

and I made a similar post inspired by it

[next marlin]

I saw your post and went "oh yeah squall is trying to translate vatiwalls to redditors again"

[feral snow]

They really need it (see the Butler post like 5 hours afterwards)

[fast anchor]

I was here from the very start, right when Nexus was asking strange and odd questions like CL/BH being on the same script, when prominent textplayers commented here, and when people went and defended Butler. There were so many interesting and new perspectives to see every day, and so many fun questions people would ask. It was truly wonderful, learning something new about either the game of BotC or about my friends I frequently interacted with in both the text and live sphere, each and every day. Much like how the Occultist is mad about learning something new each and every day, or might be executed due to their own ability, but they can learn a fact once per ga—shot to death

[zenith lotus]

You shouldnt punish Ojo's for missing. It's already a pretty weak demon, due to its ability accidently killing frames. When you punish an Ojo for missing you make an already kind of weak ability even weaker. Instead, kill a role similar to what they were going for. If they tried to kill a Flowergirl, kill a Town Crier instead. Dont kill the Occultist, who is mad about learning something new each and every day, or might be executed due to their own ability, but they can learn a fact once per game.

[fast anchor]

idk keep the game balanced

[hollow oasis]

Guys.

For the last time

[next marlin]

whoops my bad

[fast anchor]

over time and having run more Ojos (mainly IRL) I think I've shifted more toward the idea that "give the Ojo a role similar to what they were going for" is a steep overcorrection

[zenith lotus]

true

im just oversimplifying for the thing

[fast anchor]

like don't bounce them into the sage N2 but if you're going to give them a good kill for missing, why don't they just hit flowergirl every game

[next marlin]

Fortunately Town Crier isn't similar to Flowergirl because TC sucks 😎

[fast anchor]

why do they bother getting claims from people when they could just run down the list of power roles and trust the ST will kill the in-play power roles for them

it's fun to get claims and hear about hypothetical info, then snipe into it as an Ojo

[hollow oasis]

No you can't put a goddamn Engineer, a Slayer, A Snake Charmer, Athiests, fucking Politicians (really dude) anything else Legion is Jinxed with, THE ENTIRETY OF NON-PACIFIST/TEA LADY BMR LEVIATHAN RIOT AND ALHAD FOR SOME FUCKING REASON AND YOU CAN'T PUT AN ORGAN GRINDER AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The ultimate rant

I think I did it wrong

[zenith lotus]

you know what you can put in?

[hollow oasis]

oh no

no no no

don't you dare

[zenith lotus]

The Occultist, who is mad about learning something new each and every day, or might be executed due to their own ability, but they can learn a fact once per game!

[hollow oasis]

o

phew

[zenith lotus]

fixed it 😉

[hollow oasis]

I thought you were gonna say knight

[next marlin]

Me jokingly claiming "I'm the Occultist and I learned it was Legion" every day then learning it's Legion d5

[hollow oasis]

Ok it's mostly the first 4

SC is ok on teensies

[fast anchor]

hey you can solve twins

and if you get enough nos you can figure out it's a vigor game and get framed

[hollow oasis]

TC solves legion better

[fast anchor]

you can also checks notes be the fang gu

[next marlin]

many such cases

[fast anchor]

(why do all fang gus claim tc i don't get it)

[hollow oasis]

Fang gus always claim sage

[fast anchor]

new fang gus claim sage

[next marlin]

the plural is 'fangs gu'

[hollow oasis]

app is full of new players

[next marlin]

anyway fang gu is either sage, flowergirl, or town crier

[fast anchor]

sometimes it's juggler

[hollow oasis]

Leviathan is always YSK

[fast anchor]

and it's never dreamer 🥲

[next marlin]

it should be

[hollow oasis]

Cerenovus is dreamer

[next marlin]

cere is math

this is established

occasionally it's savant if you're not a coward

[hollow oasis]

true

I'm not a coward

but boffin savant is better IMO

Especially when you hit them with the

"The Politician neighbors the Boomdandy"

[next marlin]

also you're gonna be the twin let's be real

[hollow oasis]

which is helpful for both teams

[coarse fern]

Board games must be balanced very carefully in order to be fun for every play involved. Risk is a very flawed board game because it involves permanent elimination from the game after defeat which can cause someone to be waiting around for hours for the game to end. On the other hand, Blood on the Clocktower is an example of how a game can keep players who have already been “taken out” interested in the game! Botc as a game also contains many other small solutions to fix big game balance issues. An example of this is the outsider character type which allows more players to play the game while maintaining the balance of the game! Unfortunately this is a delicate fix and if an outsider character feels too powerful it can be overwhelming to the outsiders opponents. Characters that demonstrate this flaw include the Golem and also the Occultist, who must be mad about learning something new every day but once per game can visit the storyteller to learn a fact.

[manic sinew]

Is occultist one of the ones from the new sets?

That they're making

[sour harness]

No it's homebrew

You can probably tell what it does by reading at this point

[next marlin]

It's homebrew

[sour harness]

Or that

[next marlin]

It's kind of become a recurring bit in the non-homebrew channels because it's one of my favourite characters despite the minor problem of "not being real"

But things are only real when I say they are so it works

[sour harness]

Just like time

[next marlin]

Exactly

[karmic rose]

the temptation to just slap it on otherwise non-homebrew scripts...

[tacit fiber]

mm this is going to be predicable but

High Priestess is a badly designed townsfolk, especially for its ability to force social reads to be used well which hurts the neurodivergent community of clocktower. This is turned especially true with the Emma document on running the High Priestess, which, in my opinion, turns High Priestess into a character that learns virtually nothing ever maybe something once a game, just like how the Occultist learns something once per game.

[sour harness]

Marionette's setup text is PERFECT and doing ANYTHING to hamper the dynamic it creates is HERESY. Real marionettes shouldn't NEED to be told what they actually are, all they need to do is see that it's on script and avoid pushing on their neighbors. All they need to do is trust their info, and they'll act as the strongest minion in the game just fine. Characters like LLEECH and SUMMONER and LITTLE MONSTER move the demon unexpectedly and are just recipes for own goals. And don't even get me STARTED on No Dashii! That combo sucks! Especially if the marionette thinks they're the Occultist, who's mad about learning something new every day, or might be executed due to their own ability, but they can learn a fact from the Storyteller once per game!

[next marlin]

Healthiest, most balanced takes on High Priestess and Marionette

[sour harness]

Oh absolutely

-# I mean this is my actual opinion just with parts exaggerated and a copypasta tone

[next marlin]

-# exactly

hang on I need a :thrall: react

I'm just gonna use Vizier

[sour harness]

Yes, this is how you turn marionette into a thrall

[next marlin]

Wait hang on hystrex does this imply you should dislike Marionette with Fang Gu

Which is just Summoner with extra steps

Or Imp for that matter

[sour harness]

Fang gu and imp are less bad but yeah not ideal

[next marlin]

I respect the commitment

[sour harness]

Imp is perfectly fine in 1 minion games for probably obvious reasons

[next marlin]

Wait what about Scarlet Woman 😭 does hystrex!marionette just not work with demon mobility at all

[sour harness]

Same tier as imp and fang gu

Not a script sin, not a good interaction either

[next marlin]

I feel like hystrex!marionette is built for a form of botc that isn't the form of botc people play

[sour harness]

Tbh lm is also on that tier but I had to spell out little monster for the copypasta

[sour harness]

Yeah we don't have the characters to maximize marionette yet

So we're left with it being fine instead of great

Which, for now, is perfectly ok

We have some for the record

Leviathan and xaan are amazing with marionette

[next marlin]

I mean that I don't agree, fundamentally, that a role with the fundamental underlying element of "don't treat your neighbours as demon candidates or you might randomly lose" is a good perch for an entire minion to be balanced on, because people are going to have lots of reasons to treat their neighbours as demon candidates and asking them not to starts getting into the Flowergirl Problem where optimization of a role violates people's agency

[sour harness]

I mean I'm not quite saying that

I'm saying that an optimal setting for marionette lets that consistently be possible

[next marlin]

I think there's still a nuance here

[sour harness]

In practice, demons will still tell their marionettes, and that's good

[next marlin]

I don't think there's such a thing ever as it being consistently possible to just exclude your neighbours from "being on a different team to you" and it being, like, fun

So inasmuch as the role needs this to work it develops the same problem Flowergirl does where optimizing the role sucks

[sour harness]

I mean it'll be obvious if your info points to them

[next marlin]

I think for all of my personal issues with alignment uncertainty that there's an interesting core in "minion whose strategy is ST-dictated" and that this needs setup elements to avoid being arbitrary but the narrowest interpretation of the setup element being the core of the role doesn't seem...fun, or interesting, or compatible with things like "either demon mobility because the demon moves or demon immobility because when the illusion inevitably breaks evil just loses"

[sour harness]

Tbf this is the marionette that lives in my head, I haven't actually played it

[ivory ridge]

marionette isn't a real minion and im tired of pretending it's not

[next marlin]

Many, many, many such cases

[tidal quiver]

I think the intent is that powerful info roles doubt their information and don't want to spread it in town b/c of fear that, if they are shown to have untrue information, they will be outed as mario (why I think mario is best on scripts with very little other misinfo), and so the ST needs to constantly balance giving true or false info. But then again, that's coming from someone who's believed they are the mario multiple times and never was the real mario

[sour harness]

But it's less of "yeah my neighbors are never evil" and more of "I think I'm good but I need something to fall back on"

Without that, good players just kinda suffer

[next marlin]

Hystrex!Marionette and also Vati!Marionette is based around the idea that you should be pushing super hard on your info

[sour harness]

Are there any versions of marionette where that's not true

[ivory ridge]

why?

[sour harness]

Other than thinking it's misinfo

[next marlin]

Most of them

[ivory ridge]

marionette's info are designed to help evil no?

[sour harness]

???

[next marlin]

One way or another it's going to help your team

[ivory ridge]

oh i read that are shouldn't

and i'm like "why shouldn't you"

(haha)

[next marlin]

Marionette at its most interesting (i.e. "not unmitigatedly awful") form is a skill issue minion minion for which the ST dictates elements of evil strategy

[sour harness]

Skill issue characters are consistently my favorite I think

[hollow oasis]

||Mario will be good on GoS||

[next marlin]

No this is the other form of skill issue

It's a role that covers someone's skill issues as playing evil, rather than a role that punishes them

[sour harness]

Skill issue for the demon

I get what you're saying tho

[hollow oasis]

It’s simultaneously a non-skill issue and a skill issue

[ivory ridge]

so another reason why it's bad

[hollow oasis]

Marionette is weak

For me

As a person

me being your marionette is orders of magnitude worse than me just…. Being your minion

[ivory ridge]

i

[tidal quiver]

I think marionette is in the weird state where it makes evil teams strongest when it's on-script but not actually in play, which makes it an appealing but actually not great choice for script designers, because marionette is naturally really good when more than 1 person thinks they are the mario

[sour harness]

Have you considered: pushing optimal info while being immune to a wide array of strategies

[ivory ridge]

wouldn't necessary agree with that statement (the magnitude one)

[hollow oasis]

Ok

[next marlin]

Marionette is a slightly weaker Lleech, which is already not a role known for its incredible strength, but they both have their upsides

[hollow oasis]

Marionette is good for good when on script

[sour harness]

No???

[next marlin]

In particular they punch above their weight in terms of how hard they are to counterplay the potential of

[sour harness]

Its script presence is so evil sided

[hollow oasis]

Ok vat, that’s too far

That’s no longer a valid comparison

[ivory ridge]

what are you talking about 😭

[karmic rose]

wow some real occultist facts here

[next marlin]

No legitimately they have pretty much the same pattern of strengths and weaknesses for me

They're both roles that move a lot of evil weightlifting onto someone with a blue token

Which has inherent massive downsides but also inherent strengths

[sour harness]

They do it in opposite ways tho

[next marlin]

Yes, but it results in weirdly similar outcomes

[tidal quiver]

every day I'm just gonna send a fun piece of trivia that I just learned, like the Occultist, because the Occultist is mad about learning something new every day, or might be executed, but they can learn a fact from the Storyteller once per game

[sour harness]

In one case it points away from the demon, in the other case it's a substitute for registering as evil

[ivory ridge]

she weirdly on my similar till in outcome

[fast anchor]

just popping to say mizu I love you thank you for being the straightman/uninformed listener stand-in for people to explain stuff to

you are every brainrotter's #1 friend

[ivory ridge]

straight? man?

[fast anchor]

I take it back

[hollow oasis]

What

[sour harness]

I'm so sorry she insulted you like that

[feral snow]

lmao I love explaining things to mizu

[next marlin]

They overlap a lot in both failure modes (random losses, traceability, having someone on the evil team playing against evil's wincon) and success modes (makes a bunch of good players paranoid, gets some utterly insane wins when things line up for it)

[hollow oasis]

We all do

[tidal quiver]

ok maybe I'm extremely tired and delirious but I kinda see what Vati means

[ivory ridge]

me when it's 5 am and you ping me saying you couldn't sleep

[hollow oasis]

@feral snow I’m disappointed

[next marlin]

This is a common sentiment

[fast anchor]

I should do this with people more often

[tidal quiver]

least sleep deprived clocktower player

[hollow oasis]

That you didn’t ping official TPI people instead /j

[sour harness]

He has a point it's just mid

[feral snow]

they call me ||Wraith|| the way ||my eyes are open at night||

[hollow oasis]

Ok damn fair

[next marlin]

Iconic post

[feral snow]

i can't control it

[coarse fern]

I usually lean on “I’m extremely tired and delirious but even if I wasn’t I still wouldn’t really understand what Vati means”

[feral snow]

i have had some bouts of insomnia recently

[tidal quiver]

why is the "skill issue" emoji a circular saw, I have so many questions

[sour harness]

I'm always tired but never too tired to read a vatiwall

[sour harness]

Don't question it

[hollow oasis]

Cuts arm off moment

[ivory ridge]

i think this is a leap in judgement

[sour harness]

Speaking of tired I should go to bed lol

[next marlin]

'skil' is a brand of power tools
skil issue = skill issue

[young sonnet]

Cerenovus...

[tidal quiver]

ohh my god that's a joke I would make (it is really bad)

[ivory ridge]

i think mario's tracability and wincon is inherently different than lleech

[hollow oasis]

In all seriousness Mario only does stuff IRL

[next marlin]

It is but you get what I mean right

[ivory ridge]

and further separate with st intervention

[dry sluice]

Marionette is like Lleech in that it's a discount Drunk that, if solved for, immediately wins Good the game. It's only good on a script with roles like Savant, where the Marionette can learn important ST-sculpted information to push on every day. Or Fisherman, where the ST can, once per game, give the Marionette freeform advice on how to win the game. Advice such as pretending that they're a role which learns something new every day

[hollow oasis]

Otherwise it’s kinda just not

[next marlin]

The game I use as a ref case for marionette not always sucking is a longtext

[ivory ridge]

right but that's kind of saying vati and squall is similar because they're both terminally online and have random occassion where they blurt out text

[coarse fern]

Could this perhaps be a reference to Occultist, the role which pretends it learns something new every day?

[ivory ridge]

ok that's more similar than i thought

[hollow oasis]

But also If I’m the marionette it’s feelsbad because I read good anyway

Like

Why

[next marlin]

We're different evil roles I think

Don't question it

[hollow oasis]

Who am I similar to

because I’m not actually legion

[tidal quiver]

IMO Vati is more of an Occultist to me, who might be executed unless they learn something new every day, and can visit the storyteller once per game to learn a fact

[next marlin]

We already know you're a legion pretending to be human because of the chipotle incident

[fast anchor]

which one

[hollow oasis]

(If you say occultist because of the spec and spoiler thing I’m gonna die)

[next marlin]

rhiney mario-hp

[hollow oasis]

Dude I had a kid walk up to me and question me

[next marlin]

who saw the lleech hosted steward who saw them

[hollow oasis]

On that note

Nerdguy708(Thrall):Each day, if someone mentions rice, you must make a secret thing post.

[next marlin]

Thrall

[hollow oasis]

I’ll use it too damnit

[fast anchor]

I remember that game

when is vati blind leads blind going to happen

[fast anchor]

aren't you a kid

[next marlin]

relative term

[fast anchor]

I see

[next marlin]

I don't play lleech legion but I could probably run it

[fast anchor]

that's what I was imagining

[hollow oasis]

Lleech Legion is an interesting concept

[next marlin]

when do you want it to happen :^)

[fast anchor]

i believe script in question also has imp nd

[next marlin]

it's an interesting concept that I cannot play from a blue token seat

[hollow oasis]

Aww.

[hollow oasis]

Wait why

[next marlin]

legion is already basically designed to get at the exact paranoia I can overcome when playing non-legion scripts, lleech legion is "either everyone is conspiring to get you killed, or you need to get yourself killed" in a way that isn't a fun double-bind at all for me

[fast anchor]

nvm it has harpy

[next marlin]

oh true

tragic

[fast anchor]

unless 🥹

vati harpy redemption arc

[next marlin]

unless we make a harpyless new version

scripts I want to run at some point:

1. pearly gates (axopost script)
2. cultists of atlantis (really funny conceptually)
3. final nail (I have been meaning to run this since the damn Boffin contest)

what else can I add to this list

[next marlin]

no

[coarse fern]

😔

[hollow oasis]

If this gets run I will hunt down the player who draws engineer

[coarse fern]

You make it sound like this is possible to be run ever

[hollow oasis]

I don’t know what to expect from live text anymore

They played GARY COOPER

[coarse fern]

They did?

[next marlin]

I thought it was longtext that did

[hollow oasis]

Oh GOD

[next marlin]

I've never seen livetext gary cooper but I've seen longtext

[hollow oasis]

Huh

[coarse fern]

Longtext definitely has done Gary cooper

But yeah as far as I know it hasn’t happened in livetext