secret thing

[sour harness]

I think the main problem with interpreting HP as "EN learn a s&h good player with great info" is that they were literally gonna say that anyway? So like, why send the HP somewhere they were already gonna go? If they DON'T out it, sure send them there tmrw

[acoustic chasm]

That's assuming how another player will paly

And also, maybe you need to support a claim

[sour harness]

How on earth do you run HP without assuming how players play

[acoustic chasm]

Like that empath with a 2 who thinks 'Oh I'm obviously drunk'

[sour harness]

Like fundamentally you need to make assumptions to run the character

[next marlin]

I genuinely have no idea why people assume people are going to out info enthusiastically on scripts with info landscapes where misinfo is even a tiny bit arbitrary/not exactly perfect-logic-chains

[sour harness]

You can't control how the conversation goes, only guess

[acoustic chasm]

Hear me out

[next marlin]

Like there are decently many valid n1 hp choices that aren't info-forward but I think the interpretation of hp that entirely ignores it is an overcorrection and I find the way people talk about it extremely discomforting because it assumes attitudes to sharing info that players are actively incentivized away from in their very first introductions to botc

[acoustic chasm]

Night 1, you only have information to go off. You can't predict everything. Go off the good info.

Night 2 onwards, don't predict what people say or think. Listen to peoples thoughts on the previous days, and how accurate/useful they are.

Maybe throw in some good info role along the way

[tacit fiber]

I can probably guess that the HP who’s tuned out of the game isn’t going to instantly réengage and convince the player who has the worst grip on the game that they are wrong

[sour harness]

I mean sure I can get behind the idea that n1 HP info is near useless

If that's any part of what you're saying

[acoustic chasm]

But the issue we are dancing around is that High Priestess, as the most intuitive way and 'easiest' way you can run it, is too strong

That's the issue

[next marlin]

Notably the "players with good info will share it very forwardly" thing is actively and loudly counter to everything steven's ever written about the game so it feels a bit like a rugpull

[tacit fiber]

I actually think the opposite

[barren zenith]

I think showing the HP to a RK or a juggler on N1 is good as it makes it more likely that the shown player will get good info.

[acoustic chasm]

Its up to us, the players, to interpret in a way where it's not obscene

[tacit fiber]

n3+ HP info is near useless

[barren zenith]

Or a gambler

[acoustic chasm]

But that leads to very puzzling situations IMO

[sour harness]

I don't see the connection between the token text and the "obvious" way to run it.

[acoustic chasm]

OK

Why is the 'obvious' way to run it 'obvious'?

Is it a group hallucination?

[sour harness]

-# wouldn't be the first time

[tacit fiber]

HP is an absolutive

[acoustic chasm]

No, its because the player is the most important player to speak to

Thats what people see most

[barren zenith]

I think that as long as the ST is clear on how they run it, it is a fine character. It's when the player thinks that it's an each night steward and it isn't, is where the problem arises.

[tacit fiber]

The most important player to talk to is going to be a sober good with the best info

[sour harness]

I just disagree with that

[next marlin]

So this is the other catch, for me -- conflating an oppressively strong HP with "each night steward"

[sour harness]

With this, to be clear

[acoustic chasm]

It's unlikely the drunk Village idiot is the most important player to speak to, unless the High Priestess has information indicating it is Drunk

[next marlin]

I think you can run HP as not "literally hardsolves d3" and in fact run it incredibly well in a way minimizing complaints and said HP will see an average of 0-1 evils per game

And should if you want them to have any idea how to interpret what's going on, because at a certain point HP names become arbitrary if literally everything can be the reason

[acoustic chasm]

Each night, learn which player the Storyteller believes you should talk to most.

[sour harness]

Oh wait

Have people been connecting "most" to "talk"?????????

I always connected it to "believes"

That would explain a lot

[acoustic chasm]

I interpret it as

[tacit fiber]

If it’s connected to believes then it’s just

[acoustic chasm]

Look at the grimoire

[sour harness]

Why are you looking at the grimoire

[tacit fiber]

EN, learn a player. (This matters I promise)

[feral snow]

Emma wrote a really good essay on this, it’s pinned in #storytelling

[next marlin]

We're talking about that essay

[tacit fiber]

I…

[next marlin]

I believe it's part of the overcorrection

[tacit fiber]

harshly disagree with that doc

[feral snow]

Whoops I need to read more

[acoustic chasm]

Who is the best person the High Priestess should talk to for teh High Priestess to win the game

[sour harness]

It's an advice character, this applies just as much to fish and general

[next marlin]

No, it's more like riddlefish than fisherman

[acoustic chasm]

The thing is that its an advice character that promises it gives you the best player

[tacit fiber]

General is my third least favorite townsfolk right next to HP

[feral snow]

I don’t think the person you should talk to is the sober healthy fortune teller who’s gonna say all their information today anyways

[acoustic chasm]

Or at least, a reading of it does

[sour harness]

I don't like gen either lol

[tacit fiber]

Fisherman the ST tells you directly

[tacit fiber]

I don’t think they will

[feral snow]

Why are they not?

[acoustic chasm]

Why are people assuming the Fortune Teller is outing information

[sour harness]

See I've never read it like that until now

[acoustic chasm]

Poisoner exists on script?

[next marlin]

Mostly what frustrates me about this discourse is the implicit assumption there's something wrong with you if you don't immediately massclaim info

[acoustic chasm]

Demosn exists?

[tacit fiber]

In clocktower players will hide information to not be disrupted by the evil team

[acoustic chasm]

Maybe the Fortune Teller is in a successful roleswap with the Soldier?

Who knows

[feral snow]

Then yeah they’re a great target

[sour harness]

They usually do lol, at least to someone

[next marlin]

Like yeah if that's how people play then yes but that's not how people play on scripts where evil has a lot of counterplay to outed info, which is most scripts

[acoustic chasm]

So that someone could be the High Priestess!

[sour harness]

More importantly, if you think they're not outing, what on earth is a HP ping gonna do then

[feral snow]

Yes it depends on the script but I don’t have a script to compare to

[next marlin]

Give them someone safe to talk to

And reason to believe they might want to talk

[sour harness]

HP is perfectly bluffable

[acoustic chasm]

The High Priestess is a great way to get people to out informatiom

usually

Especially in the later game

[sour harness]

HP pings shouldn't be self justifying and I don't know where that notion came from

The conversation justifies the HP ping, not the other way around

[acoustic chasm]

What do you mean by this sentence

I don't get it

[next marlin]

The whole point of the role is "you should talk to this person", this is a perfect counterargument to everything else about talking to the HP, and in fact makes pretty much any other valid HP send way worse

[sour harness]

You're saying that because of the HP ping, the FT will out, right?

[acoustic chasm]

Possibly, yes

If the Fortune Teller has good information

[next marlin]

Like, I agree a damsel or a new player who insisted on playing a script they shouldn't play or something else like that is usually a better HP ping

And "you shouldn't out to the HP because they mght be evil and lying" is even worse for those than for an info-based ping

[barren zenith]

How would they know that?

[next marlin]

So it's just a full counterargument to talking to the HP at all

[acoustic chasm]

And by sending the High Priestess to teh FT, presumably thats a signal to the Fortune Teller that 'Hmm, the Storyteller thinks I am the most important player to talk to at this moment'

'Let me look at my information closer'

[tacit fiber]

I don't agee

[sour harness]

I think a HP should be able to get just as much out of their ability if they never claim HP

[tacit fiber]

why is a damsel ever a good ping

[next marlin]

If there's a huntsman

[tacit fiber]

ok then the Damsel and Huntsman need to sort tht out

[sour harness]

See that's self justifying. That only exists because people run it that way

[acoustic chasm]

I think I disagree

[tacit fiber]

like, the Damsel isn't going to just out to another person for no reason

[barren zenith]

This is certainly a divisive character.

[sour harness]

And it stops being about the conversation and more about the info, which is fundamentally not what HP is

[acoustic chasm]

Only because if you are lying to someone, then you might expect to be lied to

[sour harness]

I expect to be lied to yes

It's botc

[tacit fiber]

[acoustic chasm]

Ok. How is that useful?

Or

[sour harness]

Have you never lied intentionally as a good player

[acoustic chasm]

Yes. But let me get my full point across

[next marlin]

I really, really love HP as something that is the exact midpoint between what it was on release and what it is now, which is, so far as I can tell, something it will never be

[shrewd cloud]

Divisive for sure, and a little too vague imo since this being such a widespread issue makes it into a character issue for me, not really a player / ST issue

[acoustic chasm]

As a Storyteller, you don't often have a full view of a game. You might know someone is lying to others at times. But you don't know for sure if they will continue that lie

If it is something that you cannot predict well enough, then basing a High Priestess send over it is inherintly risky

[next marlin]

I think this is just "each night, learn a player"

[sour harness]

Well they gotta talk to their pings still

If they don't, then yeah you're absolutely right

[tacit fiber]

atp the HP isn't getting anything out of their ability

like

if I just talk to People

[sour harness]

But they shouldn't have to claim HP in order for those conversations to be useful?? Where did that come from

[tacit fiber]

I'm getting benefit from those conversations

[acoustic chasm]

They shouldn't have to, of course.

[sour harness]

Yes and the ST is giving you advice on who to talk to in order to talk most efficiently

[acoustic chasm]

Let's go back to the Fortune Teller Soldier example

[sour harness]

(TB + HP?)

[acoustic chasm]

Let's say I'm a High Priestess being sent to a soldier claim who is actually a fortune teller

And I'm claiming Slayer

[sour harness]

Sure

[acoustic chasm]

I might be able to infer there is something more going on

[next marlin]

Yeah, and what mileage are they getting out of it? People who are lying because they haven't figured out when to drop a roleswap or because they don't trust the HP or for any of the other myriad reasons people lie are just going to keep lying uselessly

[acoustic chasm]

'Why am I being sent to the soldier'

You listen to them

You might even call out that they're lying

And you push on that

[barren zenith]

I think that if the HP doesn't have to talk to the player they are sent to and they get the same info they would have done, then it isn't the best character, but that's just my opinion.

[acoustic chasm]

You should presumbaly know though they have something useful to say

You don't have to be claiming High Priestess for them to say it

[next marlin]

But yeah the big thing I hate is the "fully arbitrary" interpretation where you can't realistically distinguish "right world" from "wrong world, good" from "wrong world, evil" and make the wrong call in practice and it feels like "haha, idiot, you didn't read my mind!" at grim

[acoustic chasm]

But you can use your inforation in secret to make some stunningly accurate reads

[tacit fiber]

but if I don't know why I'm talking to these people when idk how to tlak to them "most efficently"

[acoustic chasm]

It still doesn't stop the Fortune Teller presumably having good, solid information

You also dont know as the ST how the High Priestess or the Fortune Teller will play

[sour harness]

You can and should talk to your ST about your plans

[tacit fiber]

with HP, it feels like the HP makes your plans tho

[acoustic chasm]

Easier said in a text game than done IMO

In a real game

[sour harness]

HP is a ST consult role just like cerenovus and pacifist

[tacit fiber]

because they know more than you

[sour harness]

Oh I don't play much text so that prob changes things

[acoustic chasm]

Its a bit silly though yes IMO

[tacit fiber]

so not an ST consult role

...

[acoustic chasm]

Like

[sour harness]

De facto

[acoustic chasm]

Do we treat Fisherman similarly

[next marlin]

Yes, but it's much more viable to actually do this with fish than HP

I think the very-far-abstract interpretation of HP is functionally riddlefish

[barren zenith]

On the topic of text games, in the game of final nail in the boffin, you did successfully bluff 3 nights of HP pings. This is defintely something to consider.

[next marlin]

"Here are some arbitrary names that you can talk to and tunnel in entirely the wrong direction from"

[acoustic chasm]

I did

But let's look at those pings at them again

[sour harness]

I mean that's what a droisoned HP should do lol

[acoustic chasm]

I bluffed seeing the Mutant, which is fair

[sour harness]

That sounds like an AMAZING use of drunk HP actually

[acoustic chasm]

I saw the Juggler who made a correction in public actions

Which made me read him as likely the Juggler

So that's an easy ping

[next marlin]

Yes, and I'm saying this is how that interpretation of sober HP feels to me

[acoustic chasm]

And I thought you were amne with your consults

Its possible

But it wasn't blind luck

And it took a lot of effort

[tacit fiber]

but that's what actual HP does

[sour harness]

If the ST is running it well then you're unlikely to tunnel on false worlds

[next marlin]

Again, it's not that I think the HP should learn the optimal-off-of-info person every time, but I think the community has dramatically overcorrected on this

[sour harness]

Now, is it hard to run well? Absolutely

[acoustic chasm]

ok some effort

it was my backup bluff, I was always going Puzzlemaster :P

[barren zenith]

iirc I was the empath who had only told their neighbours that game

[acoustic chasm]

ye

You were

I read you wrong

But it still worked out amazingly well for my bluff

[next marlin]

I don't think this is realistic for any ST in the entire world -- players be players

[barren zenith]

It did

[tacit fiber]

It's going to be even harder with a document that, imo, argues for an ambiguous, unhelpful interpretation of the role

[sour harness]

I mean, I stand by the idea that HP shouldn't be run for strangers

[next marlin]

"Strangers" is another rant I think I have in me, actually

[sour harness]

New vatiwall of text?? 👀

[tacit fiber]

Vatiwall about strangers?

[next marlin]

I don't think the community of people who play botc online in English is large enough that there's any group where the ST doesn't know most of the people they play with

[tacit fiber]

lmao

[sour harness]

That is not true

[next marlin]

(for moderately experienced STs)

[sour harness]

Case study: livevoice

[tacit fiber]

eh imo I fully disagree

as someone with like mid memory

[acoustic chasm]

I think High Priestess should look at what has happened rather than make the Storyteller try and figure out what will happen

[tacit fiber]

I played like 50+ games on the app

[next marlin]

Yeah? I only lurk livevoice and I recognize 80-90ish% of the names in any given game

[sour harness]

Case study: irl events that aren't quite so regular

[next marlin]

(and have predictable personality patterns for maybe about 50-60%)

[tacit fiber]

and like the best I get is like "Oh I've seen that name before"

[acoustic chasm]

Ye, strangers deffo are a thing on this server

[next marlin]

But also I emphasized "online" here

[sour harness]

Oh my bad

[feral snow]

I think I’m really well known here but like none of you have ever played a game with me

[next marlin]

I don't think botc has true "public lobbies" in the sense that there's any botc community large enough that if you become a frequent ST in it you won't know a ton of player quirks

[sour harness]

I was about to bring up PAX too lol. I knew nobody there and had a ton of fun, it was also distinctly not a HP script (it was TB)

[next marlin]

And I think a lot of people who haven't done that have an inaccurately large/disconnected image of most of those communities

Yeah I almost played botc at pax last year but I am actually insanely cripplingly anxious so I didn't

I did talk to steven a bit though

[sour harness]

Oh nice

[acoustic chasm]

I think High Priestess can be played with strangers.

Just mix up info with players who are publicly talking about worlds in the right way

[hollow oasis]

This is the truth

[acoustic chasm]

Good team I think are always worried about their info being wrong

[tacit fiber]

HP used to be run that way

and like

[acoustic chasm]

Giving them a push is helpful

[acoustic chasm]

That's the issue right. The way I am describing it feels like the 'intuitive' way to run high priestess based on my reading of the character

The issue is its too strong

[next marlin]

I think the current HP overcorrection comes from the fact that at the time it came out people would send the HP to the noble instead of the mutant loudly claiming HP and actively saying in night whispers before the HP's night order turn that they were going to claim HP

[tacit fiber]

I had a personal problem with that running of it but I at least thought it was good

[next marlin]

So now we have the arbitrary names version which is an overshoot

[acoustic chasm]

I think High Priestess belongs on a high droison script

[hollow oasis]

HP belongs on scripts where most players are cagey because of their role

[tacit fiber]

I think, en, learn

1. An evil who's fucking up
2. A good who has good info
3. A good who is cooking

is like fine

[hollow oasis]

I:e Damsel/Heretic

[sour harness]

I like that in like 90% of cases yeah

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[tacit fiber]

but

like

[sour harness]

I do think there's some merit to "a good player who's tunneling on a world that's obviously wrong to the HP"

[acoustic chasm]

Yes

[barren zenith]

Or a player with obviously false information could be added?

[acoustic chasm]

If you are desperate

[acoustic chasm]

That's where it gets difficult!

[hollow oasis]

Hp:

[barren zenith]

Like an empath 2 on the HP

[hollow oasis]

Each night learn:

[acoustic chasm]

Potentially yes!

Sometimes people who are droisoned actually are great shows

[hollow oasis]

1st: player that cannot out publicly(due to reasons)

[sour harness]

Vidiot seeing the HP as evil is a really interesting ping in the right context 👀

[hollow oasis]

Actually hold on is it a priority system

[sour harness]

The VI notably needs to not be 100% confident in their sobriety

Among other things

[acoustic chasm]

I remember on a youtube game the High Priestess potentially being shown the Engineer who was No Dashii poisoned

When the Engineer made a Shab

That's the type of thing which is an example of what's really powerful to show!

[sour harness]

Highly questioning the script rn but yeah that seems like a good ping

[next marlin]

See this is the least questionable script for a youtube game so it's fine

[sour harness]

True

[tacit fiber]

I mean sure it wasn't all the reasons but like\

[acoustic chasm]

(HP was drunk, so it wasn't the ping, but it did open my eyes to droisoned players being given to High Priestess)

[hollow oasis]

NRB exists but

[tacit fiber]

the Emma doc adds like more reasons to be sent to someone

and opposite reasons

which goes to Vati's point of like

[acoustic chasm]

I need to see that emma doc

I think I have before

[tacit fiber]

it make

[next marlin]

The funniest hp engi interaction I've heard of was a game where the engi said a mez word, then engineered the mez out not knowing it would lock him good, so the HP went to him and he (thinking he was evil) went "uhhh yeah I changed the demon type" and then he realized the interaction after asking the ST and chased the HP down like "WAIT NO LET ME UPDATE"

[hollow oasis]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11eniqSaSLwb55uQKJySZiWCwjaTnIXbhTYeh9AgON3o/edit

[tacit fiber]

you need to mind read the ST

[sour harness]

No you need to mind read the ping

[tacit fiber]

...

[next marlin]

not really an improvement

[sour harness]

Why are you backsolving HP pings

[acoustic chasm]

again, that first example of the Fortune Teller getting a yes on the Demon and the High Priestess being shown the FT

That's the issue!

High Priestess is really really strong

[next marlin]

But also no, hp is "meta the ST", that is a large part of its purpose, it's a "metaing the ST is based actually and you should do it" role

[acoustic chasm]

If its run in the way described

[sharp violet]

I feel like it depends partially on how confident the HP is in the correct world - the more confident the HP is, the more you can send them to players with the wrong world who can be convinced of the right world

But the HP needs to be confident in the right world first, until that point you should mainly send them to people who will help build that right world

[sour harness]

"hmmm yes I will not socially deduce in this social deduction game" literally what else is the game about other than mind reading players

[tacit fiber]

ok...

I have a quote about the first from Adorable Quilava

It inherently punishes good play and agency. If the FT had chosen someone else and gotten misinformation or worse/less useful information, they may have been sent the HP, which means the HP being sent to you gives less reason to trust your own judgement and agency. Further, it implies if the HP is poisoned, they could be sent to the FT.

[sour harness]

I've never understood why people keep using this argument, FT yesses are so much weaker than nos

[acoustic chasm]

Probably because its the first example Emma uses in her doc on how to run High Priestess wrong

[next marlin]

I love the 100 reacts from entirely opposite perspectives

[sour harness]

No I've seen it for at least a year now

Every time HP comes up, people talk about FT

[next marlin]

Anyway I really dislike that the hp doc is pinned because it is by its own admission written in a tone that is more hostile to other positions than it would be if it were written to be perfectly persuasive

[sour harness]

Yeah this feels like one of those times where we're all getting a little worked up but actually we agree about most things in practice

Like paci

[next marlin]

It's a complicated role that cannot be presented as "you're actively wrong, bad, and gamethrowing if you think HP should work off of info"

[tacit fiber]

I do agree

[sour harness]

Yeah it being pinned is a little sus

Even if I agree with it

[next marlin]

But yeah I agree with a lot of the stuff quilava said for much the same reasons they said it

[hollow oasis]

Hard info solving

[next marlin]

-# including "this interpretation only works for a part of the game I can't realistically consistently engage with"

[tacit fiber]

I do also have a problem with pinning something inherently controvercial

it kinda endorses that stance?

[feral snow]

People asked for it, I obliged

It might not be a perfect doc to be fair but I think there are at least some good takeaways

[next marlin]

Consider waiting for more feedback before endorsing things that are explicitly designed to be contentious and spark heat

sorry that came off too harsh

[tacit fiber]

I think it tells newer sts that this is the way to run High Priestess

when there is a sizable population that disagrees

[feral snow]

That’s reasonable

[hollow oasis]

That should be the main takeaway

[ivory ridge]

hello guys

[feral snow]

All good I know you meant well

[ivory ridge]

cheesemonger

[sour harness]

Hi mizu

[ivory ridge]

hehe

[hollow oasis]

It’s like the legion guide

[tacit fiber]

also vati jesus that was a fast point up

hai mizu

[sour harness]

Cheesemonger??? No way

[hollow oasis]

Sure, I ignore it

But a new ST should adhere to it

[fresh shard]

The risk here is that if anything could be the reason, and we remove the "most" criterion, it feels more appropriate as a fabled than a Townsfolk because if info can mean anything then it's not info.

[ivory ridge]

wtf why is the backread so long

[hollow oasis]

HP

[ivory ridge]

the last time i was checking it was autumn posting

[hollow oasis]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11eniqSaSLwb55uQKJySZiWCwjaTnIXbhTYeh9AgON3o/edit

[shrewd cloud]

Average HP discussion be like

[ivory ridge]

what about HP?

[acoustic chasm]

Its 'most' that does give it incredibly strength

[feral snow]

The document is controversial

[ivory ridge]

oh the HP doc?

[barren zenith]

How to run it

[sour harness]

Hard to run :(

[ivory ridge]

squall know about my thought on HP

[fresh shard]

If it's a tool for increasing social engagement it makes sense to be in the class of characters we have to do that. I kinda think it just fundamentally doesn't work as a character because of the whole "talk to someone who has the right world" vs "talk to someone who has the wrong world" thinf

[next marlin]

Yeah I usually just mute the channel for 3 hours when people start talking about HP because I find the "you're wrong and a bad person if you run HP in a way where they talk to info roles because info roles always out immediately d1 or they're playing wrong" thing incredibly emotionally painful but I got dragged into it this time

[acoustic chasm]

For instance, stuff like this can work! I am sure situations like this can happen.

[fresh shard]

Mostly HP seems like it's useful info for who is pointedly not being included in pings

[acoustic chasm]

But

[shrewd cloud]

I’m just sort of over HP myself since it’s led to a lot of rough games due to it being so hard to run. And unfortunately in a lot of spaces, the challenge can be with players too to try and find a way to run it that’s more fun. Otherwise everyone just thinks HP info is droisoned if you’re trying to move away from the every night Steward+ ability

[acoustic chasm]

That new player can roll any good character and this reasoning can be used

[fresh shard]

Like if a Mayor is vigor poisoned, HP never being sent to them should be a signal

[fresh shard]

Hence Fabled imo

Prompt people not to socially exclude the new player

[sour harness]

-# I mean I just don't like mayor with vigor but

[hollow oasis]

HP SUCKS on the app

[tacit fiber]

imo there was an older simpler HP that will be phased out with a worse HP 😔

[next marlin]

-# right back to "there isn't actually an online"

[tacit fiber]

I had problems with both but this was is like 10x worse

[acoustic chasm]

This also is I think not equivalent

[next marlin]

I just want people to land in the middle away from both overcorrections

[next marlin]

there isn't actually an app either

[sour harness]

Yeah I do think it stretches that point a little far

[ivory ridge]

ok

[next marlin]

there are like 30 people who play regularly on the app in english and I know all their quirks

[hollow oasis]

public app lobbies

[hollow oasis]

There’s like, 200

[acoustic chasm]

Its again, me reading 'most' as being important here.

The Fisherman says that they have advice that helps your team win

[ivory ridge]

can't beat the stalker allegation

[next marlin]

regularly

[ivory ridge]

omg so real

[acoustic chasm]

If the High Priestess specified that they learn helpful players

[ivory ridge]

i'm too lazy to summarize my reaction to the hp doc

[fresh shard]

We talk about Steward+ but actually I think a better comparison for HP run in an overpowered way is "better Mathematician"

[barren zenith]

100% agree

[hollow oasis]

That would be

[acoustic chasm]

Then we can get something more like a lot of STs run it

[sour harness]

I still connect "most" to "believes" and I think that makes the most sense for the character

[hollow oasis]

So much better

[ivory ridge]

because i went on a rant about it in my own server

[acoustic chasm]

But right now

[next marlin]

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if me constantly disagreeing with everyone on this point is just that I assume my memory for this is about 50th percentile and it's not

[tacit fiber]

EN, learn a player. (I'm helping you trust)

[sour harness]

Honestly can we have this tho?? I would love if the wording was updated to be this

[hollow oasis]

The next barrowfog

[fast anchor]

imo the HP's pings not meaning anything in a vacuum is one of the strengths of the character

[hollow oasis]

I ask why?

[fast anchor]

like, i'm sending them to you for a reason — go talk about it. it's in the character text

[acoustic chasm]

Perhaps. Its an idea that sounds good on paper, but maybe plays out differently in practice

[hollow oasis]

Djinn rule it

[acoustic chasm]

But it does mean that you are less likely to be sent to something that instantly solves the game

Which is the issue here

[sour harness]

Higher Priestess (Townsfolk): Each night, learn a player the Storyteller believes it would be helpful to talk to.

[tacit fiber]

hmm I think it's because I'm on the right track. This makes sense.

[acoustic chasm]

High Priestess as intuitively run, is obscene

[hollow oasis]

Make a djinn comp script with that

[tacit fiber]

oh wait it was the exact opposite?

[fast anchor]

that's not a conversation, that's one person positing

[ivory ridge]

yes i think they should reword to that

ngl

[feral snow]

Would it be a rework or just changing the ability text

[fast anchor]

if the ping is building worlds the High Priestess knows is false (esp due to their own info), that's something to talk about

[acoustic chasm]

Likely a rework

[ivory ridge]

*reword

[hollow oasis]

Ability text change

[ivory ridge]

grrr squall

[sour harness]

Depends who you ask

[tacit fiber]

changing the ability text

[ivory ridge]

stop pointing my incoherent writing out

[acoustic chasm]

I think its more a rework

[next marlin]

I think "HP but it can be every possible reason" is Really Bad Actually because you cannot really work through these reasons in a way that doesn't fully throw a minority of games (not that fun for a sober townsfolk ability)

[feral snow]

lol I got 5 answers, 2 on each side and one angry person

[ivory ridge]

but rework or reword make sense both way

depend on your original interpretation

[acoustic chasm]

It opens up High Priestess to be shown not the most helpful player

[sour harness]

I think it's just changing the ability text but lots of people will strongly disagree with me and that's okay

[acoustic chasm]

But a helpful player

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/grrr-bambi-cute-angry-gif-13414190

[fresh shard]

Like if Pacifist could save anyone

[next marlin]

mizu trying to be intimidating

[sour harness]

This just proves that it needs a rewording of some kind

[next marlin]

hi person

[feral snow]

Can confirm they are not intimidating at all

[fast anchor]

I mean, it's the same reason every time - "I think you should talk to them"

[hollow oasis]

I don’t think HP has the script to be cool yet

[feral snow]

We know it won’t get a wording change but it’s okay

[tacit fiber]

counterpoint

you should talk to every person in the game

like At Least Once

[ivory ridge]

anyway I find the idea of "HP being a social lubricant" kinda falls apart when the example in the almanac is "give HP Saint ping 3 times in a row to signal this is a bad exe"

I'm just like "this is not what this is about"

[zenith lotus]

i’ve been trying to backread all this, how long have you guys been arguing lol

[hollow oasis]

Some people have reasons to lie

I:e

[sour harness]

If we yap about this enough it might

[next marlin]

Don't bother, it's not worth it, just give us a new question so we can stop doing this

[acoustic chasm]

I think High Priestess fails as a social lubricant right now becasue players expect its information to be solving the game

[tacit fiber]

what

[hollow oasis]

Heretics

[sour harness]

TPI listens to us a little no?

[fresh shard]

HP and Ojo feel like they both suffer from the designers not really knowing how they intend the role to be used

[tacit fiber]

I went "no shot that's true"

and like

wow

[hollow oasis]

Maybe?

[tacit fiber]

Medway doesn't

[ivory ridge]

you are not talking to the Saint after the 2nd ping

[next marlin]

I would've rather continued talking about the ojo bit but we got sucked into the HP black hole AGAIN

[hollow oasis]

Ok

General

[sour harness]

I was gonna go eat hours ago

[fast anchor]

i gotta write the ojo axowall at some point

[fresh shard]

Please

[fast anchor]

actually, i have to write the reptiles axowall rn

[ivory ridge]

I also want to point out something

[hollow oasis]

3 star to star general

[fast anchor]

[ivory ridge]

I already talk to some others about this

but

[sour harness]

Welp

[fast anchor]

i will show my general memes if the situation demands it, next

[zenith lotus]

100 star general, what could go wrong

[fresh shard]

General is fine imo, since it only really relies on one "layer" of judgement

[acoustic chasm]

IMO they suffer from their core idea being unbalanced, either too strong or too weak.

But they also have a dash of ST choice, which means its now the Storyteller's job to create a balanced game with them.

[ivory ridge]

"good player will share their info" is a catch all, cold reading type of statement

because all good player will share their info, eventually

[fresh shard]

HP needs two or sometimes even three

[ivory ridge]

but like, when

[hollow oasis]

I meant Infinity star general

[feral snow]

No I mean they’ve already been sent to manufacturers. Any changes won’t be until expansions

[next marlin]

Also sometimes good players just don't share their info, especially if they're new

[zenith lotus]

how does that work

[ivory ridge]

the example given is about an oracle share their 3 0, but that doesn't mean for 2 days in a row, they won't lie

[sour harness]

That's what I'm referring to tho

[hollow oasis]

Vati Wall of text

[ivory ridge]

and hence i'm just like "of course this statement work, because it works everywhere"

[hollow oasis]

General is a ST consult role now

[sour harness]

So in person we have these things called thumbs

[next marlin]

I remain incredibly bitter about a game where I was still very new and was the dreamer who sniped the demon and sat on it because I was terrified of getting killed before solving the game and I ended up getting plague doctor cerelocked and executed in f3 because I literally could not say anything to anyone

[ivory ridge]

she thumb on my finger till I signal

[acoustic chasm]

This leads to weird situations where the character as it feels like it should be run by some players doesn't match how it is run by the Storyteller

[gusty bear]

wow that was a lot of backreading for a conersation that started like 15 minutes ago

[hollow oasis]

We’re talking about infinity star general

[feral snow]

Semi circle

[hollow oasis]

Thumbs are inaccurate

[ivory ridge]

but yeah

[tacit fiber]

[ivory ridge]

i think HP just

[sour harness]

Ain't no way it's only been 15 minutes

[acoustic chasm]

I did 2 paragraphs about the Ojo and High Priestess

[fresh shard]

This is also a Pacifist issue but with Pacifist I have found it easy to train people out of it because the intended mode of play buffs the character

[acoustic chasm]

it's lead to this

[ivory ridge]

need the most clause remove for this discussion to be in anyway progressing

[feral snow]

If I’m looking to be precise with an infinity star general I’ll type a polar coordinate vector on my phone

[next marlin]

Tiny bit over an hour

[ivory ridge]

because as of right now, it feels like arguing over 2 different characters

[gusty bear]

i have great perception of time

[ivory ridge]

we should run 100 stars general sometimes

[next marlin]

Time isn't real

[sour harness]

It really isn't

[fresh shard]

When people learn I use Pacifist in a helpful way, they quickly start re-evaluating usefully in a way I don't think maps to running HP in an unhelpful way

[ivory ridge]

you give a 44/100 on the first night and let the general wonder why good is losing by 6 point

[hollow oasis]

No

[next marlin]

This is the form of General you're intended to run on CC

[hollow oasis]

You give a Vati wall of text

[fresh shard]

I like general/Kazali for signalling how unbalanced the setup got

[ivory ridge]

oh right

re: ojo

i think the discussion around ojo is based on the fact

[zenith lotus]

wooo, bait role gambling

[ivory ridge]

of whether you think ojo's ability

wait

[hollow oasis]

Ojo with bait role gambling is better Ojo

[ivory ridge]

Each night*, choose a character: they die

this part here

it's whether you think that ability

is supposed to, in a vacuum, help or hurt the demon

and hence, whether ojo miss is a 'reward' or 'punishment'

[fresh shard]

I think it's meant to help but I don't think it necessarily actually helps

[acoustic chasm]

I disagree. I think it's about how strong that ability is.

If we were in an alternate reality

Where ojo is as strong as the imp and other demons

Because of their sniping abilities

[ivory ridge]

what's the main difference between that and what i just said

[hollow oasis]

Ojo should arguably have about 1.333 kpn

[next marlin]

Ojo's deal is that it's Vortox 2: Tox Harder, i.e. it's a super weak demon that naively looks like a super strong demon

[acoustic chasm]

And that overcomes the downside of a miss

[ivory ridge]

help or hurt, underpowered or overpowered compare to vanilla demon

[acoustic chasm]

Then we wouldn't have this conversation

[next marlin]

So people interpret the misses as a "balancing factor" because they think about things like "a demon that's immune to bait roles?!"

[ivory ridge]

hmmm

do you think

[hollow oasis]

It’s slightly

[ivory ridge]

the miss should be a downside, or an upside

[hollow oasis]

Marginally

[sour harness]

With ojo I just don't understand why people want to kill bait roles with misses. Every other choosing nightkilling demon has the dynamic where if a bait role lies about their character then the demon could slip up and kill them, ojo is uniquely able to avoid that because it's half a grimpeeker

[acoustic chasm]

Ojo is strong. Ojo missing should benefit the good team, because the ojo 'messed up'

[hollow oasis]

Stronger

[acoustic chasm]

A downside

[fresh shard]

It's a "see people's characters" demon whose counterplay is "hide your character" and that in itself should signal something weird happening

[acoustic chasm]

If the Ojo unintentionally misses

[hollow oasis]

It’s worth like 1.15 vanilla demons

[acoustic chasm]

Then good team has done a good job keeping the Ojo in the dark

And so they should be rewarded for it

If the ojo intentionally misses, we can do multikill stuff

[fresh shard]

I feel that Ojo misses are legitimately often best handled as "ST has a free hand to balance the game"

[acoustic chasm]

But that's the issue.

[ivory ridge]

right but that's not very fun

[hollow oasis]

1.15 vanilla demons, is not strong

[acoustic chasm]

How I think it should be run

[hollow oasis]

It’s pretty weak

[acoustic chasm]

Which respects Player agency most

[ivory ridge]

i am in the

[acoustic chasm]

Where good team is rewarded for bluffing well

[ivory ridge]

tunnel of "the ability is supposed to help the team"

[acoustic chasm]

Is also the way that makes ojo incredibly weak

[hollow oasis]

Ojo’s ability is “grim peeker demon but meh”

[ivory ridge]

for example is cere sink break d1 for reason out of their control, i'm not gonna like

execute them

[fresh shard]

Grim peeker demon with exact opposite counterplay to other grim peekers

[sour harness]

Why on EARTH do we need ojo to share that property

[hollow oasis]

Ojo needs to not kill demonsbanes unless they gamble

[sour harness]

The other demons do it organically, if you're punishing ojo misses then it's fabricated

[ivory ridge]

she demons on my banes

hehe

[hollow oasis]

Ojo picks sage? If not in play, maybe kill 3

If it is they picked the sage

[acoustic chasm]

Because doing an ojo miss is good doing more IMO

Roleswaps are ineffective against Ojo

[ivory ridge]

wait

[acoustic chasm]

Good need to be claiming out of play stuff

[ivory ridge]

aren't you guys kinda

talking about the same thing

"ojo miss" vs "ojo hit" is all just

[next marlin]

Yeah our ojo thing is different to our hp thing

[ivory ridge]

"whether good teams hide it"

[next marlin]

We all agree on how to run ojo we're just trying to engrave it into everyone else's minds

[acoustic chasm]

I think I disagree

[ivory ridge]

because "ojo hit on sage" just means "good team hide sage well"

[next marlin]

person please don't out my role thanks

[fresh shard]

Why is bluffing being rewarded vs a demon whose whole conceptual gimmick and power is "screw your bluffs" -- this might be an interesting answer but it is a question that needs answering

[acoustic chasm]

But I think the way I want to run it is not the best way to run it

[ivory ridge]

versus "ojo miss on savant" means "good team hide savant well"

[zenith lotus]

you outed yourself smh

[hollow oasis]

Ok actually

[acoustic chasm]

Because the ojo needs help

[ivory ridge]

i should continue on my ojo drunk script

[next marlin]

actually I'm the occultist

[hollow oasis]

I suddenly don’t hate ojo heretic

[ivory ridge]

but i'm too lazy to submit anything to the competition

[acoustic chasm]

Its base idea is weak

So it relies on the Storytellers to help it

then you get takes like

'Oh ojo missed on Flowergirl. Let it kill Town Crier'

'It was aiming for an info role anyway'

[hollow oasis]

That’s ok

[next marlin]

See I think this is a solid take

[ivory ridge]

I think that's a fine take

[next marlin]

TC is kinda mid anyway so it's fine

[hollow oasis]

Lies

[sour harness]

My point is that this is a very good question and there isn't really a good answer

[ivory ridge]

ok TC is kinda mid

[gusty bear]

tc is mid unless it's lm

[acoustic chasm]

See I disagree with that take

[ivory ridge]

one of the few snv characters that i can just

[hollow oasis]

it solve many a legion game

[ivory ridge]

put in everywhere

[gusty bear]

or lot

[next marlin]

"Ojo misses kill a weaker version of the role genre they were aiming for" is pretty based actually, I wonder if there are enough downgrade-y roles in the same genre to make it work consistently

[sour harness]

Sounds good to me, that's essentially what the ojo was trying to do anyway

[gusty bear]

ojo missing on sage kills a banshee

[zenith lotus]

okay not that part

[ivory ridge]

why are you having banshee and sage on the same script

but also actually

i don't think people realized

how big of a gamble it is

to pick sage as ojo

[next marlin]

Just get the banshee to believe evil's world ez

[ivory ridge]

because sage is like

broken

[acoustic chasm]

So if the say, Noble was succeeding at bluffing Flowergirl, you kill the Town Crier?

[next marlin]

Yeah sage is the "just don't kill this one before f3 lol" bait role

[acoustic chasm]

Intuitively I feel 'well I gotta reward the Noble', and if Ojo was strong enough on its own, then I likely wouldn't do that

[ivory ridge]

i think the way i run ojo is

[acoustic chasm]

But it isn't

[ivory ridge]

i tell the ojo to pick me everytime

so i can direct the kill

[next marlin]

Picking mizu every night as ojo so mizu dies

[ivory ridge]

actually that's a good question

what if ojo just

pick demon bluff everytime

[next marlin]

Just kill a bunch of spent roles

[acoustic chasm]

I would likely give the Ojo some extra killpower on less than good targets

[ivory ridge]

what if me, as the ojo, just keep picking demon bluff for 3 nights in a row

[zenith lotus]

ojo’s whole thing is that it sees through all of the good team’s bluffing. A noble bluffing flowergirl should not be rewarded for bluffing flowergirl in an ojo game imo

[ivory ridge]

how do you also run ojo spidow

[acoustic chasm]

you simply don't!

[ivory ridge]

so real

let's assume ojo + snv

[acoustic chasm]

because custom script discussion bullies anyone out of that combination

[ivory ridge]

(just go with it)

and pit hag is not in play (witch + cere)

ojo pick pit hag, what do you do

[indigo osprey]

I think a good way of looking at Ojo is: Ojo doesn't care about your bullshit.

[acoustic chasm]

if Ojo was sold to me like that, then I think the 'intuitive' way to run it changes

[fresh shard]

Right, because if you kill the person bluffing that role then it's just "choose a player" with extra steps

[indigo osprey]

So unlike other demons that want town to open up about their characters, Ojo wants town to hide their characters from each other, to their (Ojo's) advantage

[ivory ridge]

what advantage 😔

[acoustic chasm]

I see Ojo's strength as

[next marlin]

"Like a bonfire on a moonless night… I see you, mortal."

[ivory ridge]

good player are presumed to share their info anyway

[acoustic chasm]

'Roleswaps are useless'

[ivory ridge]

see

[zenith lotus]

thats part of it

[ivory ridge]

the optimal HP play

is sending it to the Ojo

[fresh shard]

This is true but is imo not enough to carry a demon by itself

[ivory ridge]

so Ojo can not pick it

[acoustic chasm]

Yea

But my argument is

[indigo osprey]

Roleswaps are useless is a fine usage of Ojo

like

The starting script has Saint, Soldier and Ravenkeeper together with Spy

[acoustic chasm]

Yes, it's not enough. That's partially because TPI has shipped a character which is slightly too weak

[indigo osprey]

spy nullifies all three of these instantly

Ojo's ability is that it can have the spy advantage of targetted killings without needing the spy

[acoustic chasm]

Ojo is a mix of being slightly weak, but has a lot of ST control

When missing

[ivory ridge]

ooh what do you think is stronger

[acoustic chasm]

So it becomes the ST's job to try and interpret Ojo in a way for it to be competitive

[ivory ridge]

current ojo, or vanilla demon + en grim peak

[acoustic chasm]

Which is where some of the weirdness comes from

[fresh shard]

This I hard agree with

[indigo osprey]

that's a good benchmark

[acoustic chasm]

EN grim peak I think, in the way I think about it

[indigo osprey]

Ojo should be stronger than generic demon + grimpeaking

[acoustic chasm]

But in the way Adrian thinks of it

Ojo

[indigo osprey]

and if the Ojo in your games isn't that

[fresh shard]

Each night grim peek unless the Ojo gets multikills often

[indigo osprey]

you should change the way you run Ojo

[ivory ridge]

i think

the solution is

you put ojo + pit hag

[acoustic chasm]

IMO that's a bit of an issue, but its what we have. I just think its an explanation why I think Ojo is a weird character

[ivory ridge]

so the pit hag can pit hag an ojo out of it

every game

[indigo osprey]

I mean

if your Ojo misses on town crier

[ivory ridge]

and you give pit hag 1 arbitrary death to compensate

[next marlin]

Definitely #2, because it gains grim peeker gamestate reactivity, while Ojo's (and Pukka's) crippling weakness below other demons is that it has far far lower gamestate reactivity than most demons (accidentally kills frames, reacts poorly to shifts in opinion, etc)

[indigo osprey]

no Ojo will ever be sad that you instead killed the flowergirl

[fresh shard]

I unironically had Ojo on my xurrent WIP script to be a tempting Engineer target

[acoustic chasm]

of course!

But that Sage pulling off the Town Crier bluff will go 'oh, ok'

[ivory ridge]

wait hear me out

new Ojo

[acoustic chasm]

once the grim reveals

[sour harness]

Yes absolutely

[acoustic chasm]

But if you sell Ojo as 'look Ojo will not fall for your silly bluffing traps!'

[ivory ridge]

"en, c1p, they die. learn which player the Storyteller believes you should kill to most"

[next marlin]

Ojo's strength in that matchup is that it can usually overcome this eventually, Pukka's is that it has misinfo and accordingly can be crazy when unsolved ("somehow weak and scary at the same time")

[zenith lotus]

i mean yea. again, imo thats one of the strengths of ojo. it only hits bait characters if they gamble with the bait characters

[acoustic chasm]

Ojo also has multi-kill

[ivory ridge]

most ojo script i see have mayor as the only "bait" "character"

[acoustic chasm]

which again, is a tool to help it be competitive

[indigo osprey]

Banshee is a fine bait character for Ojo

[fresh shard]

People should be able to socially intuit from bait roles not dying ever that an Ojo is likely to be in play

[indigo osprey]

nothing to crippling

[fresh shard]

I agree, I like this combo

[next marlin]

Actually I just realized that Ojo, Pukka, and Vortox all share "absolutely bodies most bait roles"

[ivory ridge]

you know what'd also be funny

"ojo picking farmer every night"

that way, both player expectation and demon expecation are met!

[fresh shard]

Make the ST run out of Farmer tokens

[cold veldt]

now put the three of them on a script with ravenkeeper, sage, farmer, banshee

[next marlin]

(and are arguably the three weakest "normal"/not-riot demons in the game)

[ivory ridge]

"if no more farmer token are left, evil win"

but shitposting aside

the way ojo run

is just so depedent on like

everything

i think a half shitty solution is literally just

[acoustic chasm]

we didnt even have a question today

[ivory ridge]

give the demon a pen and a notebook that just have a line that say

"how do YOU like your ojo"

[next marlin]

Anyway this is my continued endorsement for banshee as a based role that people keep sleeping on
"Noooo I can't fit a bait role onto my script with grim peekers and these demons" consider: banshee, the bait role evil might want to kill AND that everyone loves procs of

[ivory ridge]

and then run it that way

[sour harness]

Yeah I was looking for that at some point

[acoustic chasm]

:P

[next marlin]

We're busy

[acoustic chasm]

I just mentioned two characters

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: How do you run Ojo misses?

[ivory ridge]

[time isn't real]: how do YOU run your ojo

[sour harness]

1/18: why are my storytelling opinions all right and yours all wrong?

[ivory ridge]

😭

[acoustic chasm]

PFF

[sour harness]

CC moment

[cold veldt]

there was a time where i was a boffed demon with the king ability and i saw that there was a banshee. i knew who they had to be, so i was like "fuck it" and killed them, cause the other living players were all bigger frames

[fresh shard]

The real rough thing is how it hard confirms droisoning for like Lleech and No Dashii

[next marlin]

I mean it doesn't really do so for Lleech exactly

[ivory ridge]

how would you run Ojo in an "all Outsider are Drunk script"

🤔

[fresh shard]

Oh true lmao

[sour harness]

Wait Boffin king is so cool

[next marlin]

No Dashii is a problem but No Dashii on customs is often a problem

[acoustic chasm]

I also love banshee because

[next marlin]

Pukka is fine just put Vigor onscript

[acoustic chasm]

Its like Virgin on TB

It offers something different to a lot of different characters

Its hard confirmation in a fun and fair way

[cold veldt]

it can be cool but at the same time in that game, i basically knew the whole grim already. even the banshee might've claimed, although the king info was confirmation

[next marlin]

the humble heretic:

[ivory ridge]

boffin king is cool because

you get to add a choirboy

[zenith lotus]

that is not true

[ivory ridge]

wait

[acoustic chasm]

currently my favourite boffin thing is

alch boffin tealady

[sour harness]

Boffin king learning heretic going into f3 is peak actually

[ivory ridge]

alch-boffin-king fanggu/imp goes

[sour harness]

Too bad there's exactly 1 world where that works

[ivory ridge]

incredibly crazy

i think

[zenith lotus]

*role choirboy

[low burrow]

Choirboy (Townsfolk) - Experimental

If the Demon kills the King, you learn which player is the Demon. [+the King]

**Affects Setup: **True

[sour harness]

I love me some alch boff viz

No wait

Boff alch viz

My bad

[zenith lotus]

the demon isnt killing the king, they're killing the demon. it doesnt trigger choirboy

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[next marlin]

I was going to say I saw a discussion here about how boffin king can count for adding a choirboy but actually I might have dreamt that

[zenith lotus]

also, choirboy cant be in play with a boffin king

[ivory ridge]

nooooooo

[acoustic chasm]

don't worry

just make the choirboy drunk

the funny part of boffin king is that the demon learns that they are the king

[sour harness]

I just realized choirboy pithag is a really cool combination. Too bad king pithag sucks

Oh maybe I make my garden of Djinn around this

[ivory ridge]

Honestly

Just make king immune to Minion

I’m not even joking rn

[sour harness]

Yeah I might do that

[acoustic chasm]

You are safe from Minions.

[ivory ridge]

Yeah

[sour harness]

And maybe I make the cb vortox proof too

[ivory ridge]

(Beside Assassin)

[sour harness]

Though maybe that's overcooking it

[ivory ridge]

Just don’t put those two together

Some character are

[sour harness]

King vortox is so cool tho

[ivory ridge]

Not meant to be together and that’s fine

[sour harness]

It is I agree

[ivory ridge]

The problem only arise when those characters are

70% of the minion suite

Wait grrr no you already have that GoD idea

It’s joever

[sour harness]

Lol

[hollow oasis]

You forgot Lleech

Which bodies some bait roles

Sage moment

[next marlin]

Lleech is stupidly swingy such that it's hard to mark on an axis

In a very real sense I want to compare it to minions

[hollow oasis]

I know

[next marlin]

Rather than to demons

[hollow oasis]

Lleech’s Exe survival should be atheist tho

[next marlin]

The same way I talk about Summoner when I talk about "glass cannon demons" as a cluster

(Summoner becomes a minion midgame, but so does Fang Gu)

[hollow oasis]

And Imp

[acoustic chasm]

imp can go the full way

[ivory ridge]

Who is not swingy in your opinion smh

[indigo osprey]

How would lleech as a minion work?

[hollow oasis]

Legion is a horde of minions holding the horde of babies

[ivory ridge]

Well, Scarlet but we ignore her for now

[sour harness]

Also imp

[acoustic chasm]

Devil's Advocate

[next marlin]

I like a lot of swingy roles so I discuss them disproportionately

[indigo osprey]

I mean

most characters in botc aren't swingt

[ivory ridge]

You must be a chandelier I see

[acoustic chasm]

SW is much better than DA

[indigo osprey]

swingy

[gusty bear]

da is swingy

[hollow oasis]

DA is really swingy

[indigo osprey]

DA isn't swingy

[ivory ridge]

I’mmmm gonna swing

[tacit fiber]

tbf (exluding Pithag) any TB minion is stronger than any other base3 minion

[hollow oasis]

On customs

[indigo osprey]

'Sometimes they execut ethe demon on days that you aren't protecting them' isn't swingy

[next marlin]

DA has a decent player skill element but this is not fully synonymous with being swingy

[gusty bear]

spy is weaker than cerenovus

[next marlin]

It doesn't have inbuilt swing

[ivory ridge]

I think TB Minions are stronger than almost every other minions

[gusty bear]

da is also stronger than spy

[hollow oasis]

That’s not the swingy part

[sour harness]

Comparing these directly is kinda wild imo

[hollow oasis]

It’s the other part

[next marlin]

It is but I dig it

[sour harness]

They're so vastly different

[indigo osprey]

the strength of pithag is limited due what ic an pithag

[ivory ridge]

Spy just have a high skill cap imo

[sour harness]

Yeah valid

[gusty bear]

requiem brought it up

i was disproving their conjecture

[ivory ridge]

That’s require for the entire evil team to understand its role

[sour harness]

Oh I saw it out of context then

[tacit fiber]

Stick

I don't agree with either of these

[gusty bear]

why?

[acoustic chasm]

this is so fun

:p

[tacit fiber]

A good Spy is better than a good DA

[next marlin]

I'm turning this idea over in my head and trying to work out if I agree

[gusty bear]

...no?

a good spy has a pretty high cap on how useful it cna be

[acoustic chasm]

I don't know

Spy has the upside of helping push worlds

[gusty bear]

a good da can stall town for a while

[acoustic chasm]

And being seen as good by everything

[tacit fiber]

a good da can stall at best

a good spy can destroy

[acoustic chasm]

A good DA though is much better when good team is losing 2/3 players a night

[tacit fiber]

A spy can turn clocktower into mafia

[ivory ridge]

She dee on my ay till I survive execution

[hollow oasis]

Stalling is absurdly good

[gusty bear]

what does that even mean

[acoustic chasm]

spy can 'disprove' worlds

[tacit fiber]

yes but good is still getting info while the stalling is occuring

[ivory ridge]

Imo Spy allows for stronger confirmation chain 😔

[acoustic chasm]

with specific evil teams

[ivory ridge]

But I think Spy is kinda swingy (read: bad) in TB

[tacit fiber]

a spy can out everyone's role given some bags, leading to the game jsut being socials as mechanics are useless

[ivory ridge]

Because what does TB have that help spy accomplish its job? only UT/Virgin/Empath

[next marlin]

swingy (read: bad)please stop pointing out the euphemisms I use to convince myself all the horrible roles I love are good

[ivory ridge]

😔

[tacit fiber]

[ivory ridge]

Washerwoman/Lib Spy isn’t real

[tacit fiber]

[acoustic chasm]

Oh it is real

[ivory ridge]

Holy shit I forgot about RK

[acoustic chasm]

[hollow oasis]

Chef

[next marlin]

Mizu when they confirm the drunk mayor:

[hollow oasis]

Literally chef

[acoustic chasm]

But ye a spy registering as can throw worlds out of wack

espeically if they read good

[ivory ridge]

Ok maybe I’m wrong 😔

But anyway Spy also suffer from the problem

That Spy exists

[ivory ridge]

You get stronger confirmation chain, but people will doubt those chain

[acoustic chasm]

but thats the beauty of spy

[ivory ridge]

But that also means if you don’t

Goes hard on the chain itself

[acoustic chasm]

you can make any confirmation chain fall apart

[gusty bear]

insane take, if i'm interpreting it how you're intending it

[ivory ridge]

Your evil confirmation chain become weaker than normal

(And good too)

But evil having a confirmation chain is stronger than good’s

So its like, if you don’t use your ability, it can be

Detrimental to your team

[ivory ridge]

Love the chef 1

Anyway Imp dies day 1 here

[gusty bear]

least obvious spy

[next marlin]

Ideally this setup should have a virgin so you can confirm all the very true sober ysk info

But it doesn't fit in the player count

[hollow oasis]

The fact that this is legal is why I don’t play TB

[next marlin]

Most STs are good and not bad but yeah some are bad

[acoustic chasm]

oh come now

[hollow oasis]

but also poisoner

[acoustic chasm]

the demon will bluff empath 0

will trip up over itself

and get executed d2

[hollow oasis]

That also sucks

I simply prefer the other 2 base scripts

BMR and SNV my beloved

[ivory ridge]

oh

i've seen

game where spy grief the game though

[sour harness]

Well yeah because if a good player is the spy then they know the demon

[gusty bear]

vati can you berk for me

[hollow oasis]

So that means you send a high priestess to the spy

[sour harness]

info (read: information)

[ivory ridge]

we have this grim the other day

(evil lost hard)

the butler here is actually the ogre

[sour harness]

Ogre mayor is fun

But also just play TB bruh

[ivory ridge]

ogre mayor, washerwoman soldier

ft hit demon d1

and empath make it so demon can't starpass unless they die

all of this pair with the investigator ping on poisoner

[next marlin]

Spoisoner is either this or 3 evils alive endgame

[ivory ridge]

(this is why investigator need to ping on spy sometimes)

it's actually so rough

i don't think it's a winnable game

(i was the poisoner claiming recluse and get exed d1)

this has fully converted me into 'recluse +tc/oracle is good actually'

[gusty bear]

simply don't claim recluse

[ivory ridge]

i didn't have the grim on d1

😔

[gusty bear]

spy claims lib drunk ping on ft and empath, probably

[ivory ridge]

they did

ft and demon actually

our plan was to frame empath starpass

we went super hard into baron world (all 3 claims are in some way backing up baron)

still can't win because pois get exed d1

[sharp violet]

#botc-memes message
and secret thing is general-4

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: I asked the counterpart of this one a few days ago, and some people wanted the reverse. What's an unpopular role (rarely used, or apparently widely disliked even if they're used a lot) that you like?

[indigo osprey]

Atheist

[fast anchor]

Ojo

[next marlin]

I think for "rarely used" (I intentionally want to keep all interpretations of "unpopular" open) mine is Banshee, which is just such a cool bait role because it actually dies sometimes even if evil knows about it

[feral snow]

I like banshee

[next marlin]

Its big scriptbuilding weakness is that its success state is unbluffable excluding Boffin shenanigans and bait roles tend to be balanced around their evil nightkill bluffability

Which is unfortunate and limits its versatility

[indigo osprey]

I have seen a procced banshee lose for their team 2 out of 3 times I have sene a real life procced banshee (incidentally, twice the same player).

[feral snow]

Yeah it doesn’t work everywhere

[next marlin]

But it's fairly versatile still

[indigo osprey]

That's the main issue with banshee

it doen't actually help you solve the game

[feral snow]

My answer is butler for sure

[next marlin]

banshee/evil nightkills is a better interaction than "basically any other bait role"/spidow

[indigo osprey]

You are super powerful now

with great power comes great responsibility

but you might also just vote with evil and make it impossible to win for good

[gusty bear]

banshee is easily the coolest bait role

[next marlin]

That's part of what I love about it -- it works fundamentally unlike all other bait roles, which are a question of how much you trust the claimant

[dense hound]

Banshee I always find more powerful in 2+ minion games because proccing basically means you dont lose f3 automatically (save drunking/poisoning which would be sad to have possible 😦 )

[next marlin]

Banshee is a question of how much the banshee trusts everyone else

[indigo osprey]

'You are my slaves now'

It's like a virgin on tb, except they aren't waiting to die

[warped fog]

Mastermind

[cold veldt]

i once played an al-had game where i was the savant that ended up self-nomming and claiming goblin every single day cause i didn't want any golems to punch me and i didn't want to die. the banshee ended up proccing, and despite everything, they trusted me, which led to us executing the demon with the help of their voting power (meanwhile so much of the town was like wtf are you doing)

[next marlin]

cyclone gaming

[cold veldt]

i felt so blessed that day

[fresh shard]

Lord of Typhon. Difficult to script build for but I like the dynamic of the transformation demons a lot and it creates a different kind of puzzle

I also am very fond of the Banshee and the Mastermind

[next marlin]

enjoying that ojo was also multiple peoples' answers to the inverse question

[zenith lotus]

Lleech

[next marlin]

also an answer to the inverse question

[zenith lotus]

lol

[pseudo fulcrum]

Huntsman

I also think Snitch is good

[feral snow]

Snitch is interesting I just wish people would stop putting it with Kazali

[next marlin]

Snitch/Kazali is a kind of unfortunate consequence of Snitch+Kazali+some other reason you wanted Snitch

As far as slightly rough edges on a script go it's a fine one

[cold veldt]

ooh i like the snitch

[stable latch]

Lord of Typhon/Al Hadikhia

[cold veldt]

that might be cause i have a script where i think it rules though

[next marlin]

Notably as a snitch on such a script you have very strong reason to believe kazali socials don't imply a kazali game

[cold veldt]

my snitch life pro tips are put it with cannibal, put it with xaan

[sour harness]

I love social characters 🔥🔥🔥

[feral snow]

That’s my answer too

[tacit fiber]

Legion

[feral snow]

It’s an awesome dynamic

[tacit fiber]

oh yeah I didn't have an answer a few days ago but