secret thing

[sour harness]

I'm not really convinced we have the tf to make it interesting tbh

They're basically all either YSK, OPG that uses it immediately, EN(*), or King/CB

And like

Ojo is interesting when different Townsfolk are useful at different times

So it can kill them in the optimal order

[next vault]

Ojo is incredibly strong

[feral snow]

I like Ojo but yeah it needs support

[next vault]

Pukka is also very strong

It needs a bit of support but it's very scary under the right circumstances

[sour harness]

People often put ojo on scripts because they "needed a fourth demon" (you can just put less on the script it's fine) and it's "normal enough that it can go anywhere" (not really true)

And then when running it, they punish the ojo for missing

[next vault]

I think the Ojo can be punished for missing

[sour harness]

If you're going into f3 maybe

[next vault]

But there's scripts where it's too rough

[sour harness]

What was the point of being an ojo if you're gonna get punished for not knowing who is who

The whole point is that it's strong despite not knowing who is who

[next vault]

Like, something you can do is kill their spent Wizard/Assasin/Baron or smth

[sour harness]

And it doesn't need to know who's who

[next vault]

Ojo needs to know what is in play

[sour harness]

I'm sorry what

[next vault]

Like

On an ojo miss

you can do that

instead of just sinking

[next vault]

or kill a farmer

[sour harness]

Demons should be stronger than "Each night*, choose a player: they die.", not weaker

[next vault]

esp later into the game

[sour harness]

farmer of all things???

[next vault]

like

on n2-3 maybe not

but later into the game you should know what characters are in play

[sour harness]

No, imo you should pretty much always kill the closest thing to whatever the ojo was doing for. They tried to kill a FT and missed? Kill the dreamer instead

Or the sweetheart or smth

[next vault]

then what's the point?

If you're the Demon and kill the Sage thinking they are the Flowergirl you are punished for your bad choice
Ojo should be treated the same once the game is on n4+

[fresh shard]

I feel Ojo is maybe more interesting if it deliberately gambles on misses a decent amount

Or is encouraged by ST meta to get good kills if it takes the risk of shooting for a bait role and there isn't one

[sour harness]

Ojo's power is literally bypassing this??? Like that's the whole gimmick

[next vault]

I'm not saying "oh you missed let's kill the sage"

[fresh shard]

For it to want to always hit it would need a stronger upside IMO

[next vault]

But if you consistently miss because you were greedy I'm gonna punish you

[next vault]

This is giving Dondozo vibes

[fresh shard]

The fact the almanac recommends you sometimes kill multiple people on an Ojo miss if the script allows for it strongly suggests to me that "always try to hit" is not the intended mode of play

[next vault]

if there's other mutikill demon it's aight

[sour harness]

Then do that when they miss on purpose (for the most part)

[next vault]

multikill demons are weird

[next vault]

Like, for example, I've never been able to fit Shab into a custom

[dry sluice]

Ojo would be a much cooler demon if the point was punishing the Ojo for missing, because that'd encourage good players to lie instead of making it pointless

[stable latch]

No Dashii

[sour harness]

If good players lie then the ojo can't kill based on socials

[hollow oasis]

Ojo's shouldn't be punished 90% of the time

If they pick a Demonsbane,

if it's correct, oof

if it's wrong..... Double/Triple Kill

[dry sluice]

I mean, it would be cool to have a version of Ojo where the base strength is higher, so that punishing for missing is cool and interesting

[sour harness]

Ok yeah I can agree with that

[hollow oasis]

Ojo probably should be able to pick up to 3

[gusty bear]

ojo picking up to 3 would be too strong

and too swingy

[barren zenith]

Ojo picking 2 roles may work

[karmic rose]

I've seen N homebrews that are just "pick 2, the second goes through if the first is in play"

[hollow oasis]

i mean, if you mess up and 1 is wrong deaths are arbitrary

[gusty bear]

then that's either 3kpn or st decides kills

which just seems unfun

[hollow oasis]

you may choose to pick 1 or 2 characters

[gray ridge]

I think ojo should only be punished when they miss a lot of times in a row

If they miss N2 kill a YSK or a spent role

[indigo osprey]

Ojo missing is a balancing tool for the ST

im

imo

[hollow oasis]

that's fair

[ivory ridge]

no it doesn't

the st need support

make ojo a 1.3333 kill demon

[hollow oasis]

Ojo Pithag hear me out

[hollow oasis]

Po is 1.5 thoooo

[ivory ridge]

right

but

why can't ojo be 'a bit less than po in term of killing, but you can soul read ' 😔

[hollow oasis]

why can't ojo be used to fake pithag?

[ivory ridge]

because ojo and pit hag on thte same script is kinda hmmm

[hollow oasis]

hmm yes or hmm no

[sour harness]

Why would a pithag ever switch the demon in or out of ojo

[feral snow]

to make a vortox

[hollow oasis]

no no no

ojo kills bluffing pithag

[sour harness]

Ok why do they switch into it

No I know that

I'm saying they're not a great script combo for other reasons

[hollow oasis]

(swap the demon off ojo instantly)

[rocky idol]

ojo is possibly my least favorite demon

[sharp violet]

Ojo chooses the Dreamer, and the sage is bluffing Dreamer? Kill the Sage and Clockmaker to tell the Ojo they missed

[hollow oasis]

why do yall have to be so evil to an ojo

[indigo osprey]

If the sage is bluffign dreamer and the ojo falls for it

that's not beign evil to ojo

that's rewarding the sage

[hollow oasis]

but like, here's the thing

Each night* choose a player, they die. Does that exact thing

[sour harness]

^^^

What do you guys think ojo's strength is supposed to be

[sour harness]

Its strength is to see through this exact kind of bluff

[supple dirge]

If you don't kill the sage when the demon picks something the sage is bluffing what can a sage do in an ojo game to get killed? Just hope the ST kills them?

I think its more fun if you get rewarded for tricking them demon like that

[feral snow]

but then what's the value of Ojo

[sour harness]

^^^

It's like a sage in a spy game

It's probably not gonna die at night

And it can even make an educated guess about the evil team composition because of that

also, if an ojo does choose sage or similar and misses, I'll probably just give them the best kill available. So yes there's reason for a bait role to die at night

(that's not particularly worth it with sage in particular, but RK or banshee for example)

[supple dirge]

You get to pick off the most powerful roles first

[sour harness]

Wait is it not obvious that that contradicts your point

I thought that was clear

If there's no dreamer it should still be able to pick off the most powerful roles first instead of being punished for trusting a good player

[supple dirge]

I don't see it like that, you still need to successed. But if the demon wants to kill player x because they picked the role they're bluffing as, I'm killing player x

[sour harness]

Ok so I ask again

What is the strength of ojo

Because clearly it's not killing the most powerful roles first

It's just choosing players

Not characters

[supple dirge]

You can if you pick in play roles. You make town more dodgy about claiming things to confuse the ojo. Its a fun minigame

[sour harness]

You get this dynamic with literally every other choosing nightkilling demon in the game

Give that to yaggababbles and lil monstas

Not ojos

[cyan reef]

Ojo's strength is they can try to kill any character they want, their downside they can't necessarily target specific players, which in many cases is more important than stopping a particular ability

[sour harness]

I kinda wish ojo was "Each night*, choose a character: they die. If not in play, choose a player: they die."

[sour harness]

Yes I agree with this

[cyan reef]

that would be an unnecessary buff to the character

it basically removes its downsides, and adds in specifically learning if a character is in play

[sour harness]

True, it's not perfect

[supple dirge]

You can still hit a powerful townsfolk by betting if its in play or not. Depending on your bluffs and player count you can have a pretty good sense what is in play or not. If not I'll usually not give the best kill for evil.

[cyan reef]

Ojo reinforces why it can be good for good players to be cagey with their characters, at least for a while

[supple dirge]

Yeah often times you want to kill players not characters to set up a frame for final 3.

[sour harness]

Ojo's weakness of not being able to kill off socials is good. Why does it need another weakness

[supple dirge]

I see it as respecting good players bluffing well.

[sour harness]

[supple dirge]

Well enough to fool the demon

[sour harness]

Ok idt we're convincing each other, we're going in circles atp

[supple dirge]

Thats totally different. Ojo is specifically trying to kill a player in this scenario

[sour harness]

Better to drop it than to let it implode

[supple dirge]

As an aside I dislike demon bait characters with st chosen kills because it feels bad for the st to decide if you get your ability or not. For ojo there's some plays you can do to get them to target you specifically.

[next marlin]

Just be good at being evil and not bad at it

[ivory ridge]

dies

[sour harness]

Doing both at once is hard tho

[sharp violet]

1/13/25: Favorite Yaggababble phrase you've seen?

[alpine silo]

i was the good yag in an oops all pit hags with phrase "You pit-hag!"

[fast anchor]

ojo is like the worst demon in the game 💀

no other demon so consistently kills their frames

[next marlin]

Pedantic react aside yeah an ojo who gets "punished" for missing is significantly weaker than a generic demon

significantly

[tall raft]

I don’t think Ojos should be on scripts with sages

[next marlin]

ojo/banshee is the good ojo/bait interaction

[tall raft]

Ehh

It’s still bad

[next marlin]

because you can go bait role gambling and if it backfires then killing the banshee is something you can work with

other bait role gambling backfires are too much

[tall raft]

Ojo is best when there are a lot of characters you might want dead

And Banshee isn’t that

[next marlin]

I'm referring to the specific meta of "ojo picks a bait role, if it's out of play they get 2 good kills"

[tall raft]

Ojo picking the banshee to get a better kill when it’s not in play is an idea I don’t like

I think any miss should allow for a double kill

[next marlin]

It should but if you're doublekilling on a miss the kills should be fairly mid

unless you're bait role gambling

[tall raft]

I just don’t like the idea of it

[next marlin]

"2 optimal kills or a banshee proc" is an interesting tradeoff

[barren zenith]

Ojo is a weak demon in general. But, it's mainly because after one miss, the sage, damsel and farmer all get killed, so it's primarily STs fault.

[next marlin]

but if it's sage proc it's just not worth it

Ojo is interesting because it has essentially a far worse version of the Spy Fallacy

Spidows are often negative utility in the hands of a player who isn't really exploiting them and is trying to get the demon to kill off info roles rapidly

You see stuff like the demon n2 killing an undertaker in a spy invest ping which just solves the game

Ojo's weakness is that it's this in the form of a demon

A lot of people look at it and assume it's incredibly strong for the same reason they assume that of spidows

(this is also why ojo/spidow is a perfectly fine interaction, though not the best one, because "a spidow allows an ojo to target its kills" makes it much stronger)

[next marlin]

Specifically, it has all of the "kills into info rather than following the gamestate" weakness of spidow (mostly widow) while totally lacking their gamestate reactivity

Which is why its ability so often resolves to "Each night*, kill your frame"

It's the same weakness as Pukka, whose ability resolves to "Each night*, someone you sure hope wasn't the town's new frame might die", but Pukka has significant advantages that make it stronger than Ojo despite both of them being crippled by their lack of gamestate reactivity

[fresh shard]

I've been saying for a bit that Ojo could use more specific advice on how you should resolve misses because "do what you think is best" just isn't useful for a character which has no established meta and in practice it turns into the evil version of the Pacifist problem

Where you have a theoretically useful ability that is actively harming you in practice if the ST isn't playing nice

I find it especially weird that people are like "Ojo is interesting because it encourages people to be cagey about characters" when its ostensible strength is precisely that it makes it not useful to do that

[fresh shard]

The time they gave JC (who loves bluffing Savant) "I think that's the false one"

My group, unfortunately, has not had a good history of Yagga phrases, to the point that in my group the Yaggababble doesn't usually attempt to kill at all

Being a demon forced into a sailor bluff when you have no execution survival in play isn't very fun, it turns out

[fast anchor]

i'm the legion, the day after a poppyganda game where the poppygrown Baron outed Legion to find their evil team

[next vault]

Riot

[ivory ridge]

what 😭

[rocky idol]

it turns ojo into a vanilla demon tho

like ojo + spidow = each night*, choose a player: they die. you may choose that the storyteller chooses who dies instead.

[lean isle]

Well, there's also "You see the Grimoire".

[rocky idol]

well but that's the spidow anyway

[hollow oasis]

Not after the change

[rocky idol]

i'm saying the redundancy is a huge nerf on the ojo

[next vault]

Riot is still very weak

[rocky idol]

but it's at least like fun and interesting

the only demons i just dislike are legion and ojo

and legion at least has an interesting concept and cool potential

[hollow oasis]

Everyone hates legion :(

[rocky idol]

ojo is just, bleh

[fresh shard]

I think this is a good bit more interesting as an ability tbh

And the Ojo is at its best when this is basically how it's run

You can dip into storyteller pot luck and lean into the "meta the ST" side of the game

It hurts that presentationally the Ojo is meant to be "see past people's bluffs and target their real characters, but beware of people hiding their real characters", given that Ojo just doesn't really work if run this way

[hollow oasis]

I like Ojo when it gambles

If you choose a powerful TF:If miss, slightly worse kill

If you choose a spent role:If miss, good or better kill

If you choose demonsbane:If miss, There goes 2 powerful TF

[fresh shard]

Missing to see what the ST does and inferring info based on that seems like a fun mode of play but I don't know anyone I trust to run the Ojo well enough to facilitate that

[fast anchor]

this is an upgrade from what the Ojo is

so it's not a nerf

[rocky idol]

fair 💀

[fast anchor]

the Ojo is my favorite Demon in botc so it's unsurprising I have thoughts on it

most of them being "yall this thing sucks soooooo bad"

this is my son he has every diseases

[next marlin]

we all need an incredibly questionably designed and undertuned role to love for no reason

[fast anchor]

i just wish people put it on more BMRlikes and then coordinated with their ST to get doublekills on intentional misses

or even just did ojo/GF and got multikills when evils bluffing outsider get executed

combo goes hard

[next marlin]

hey I saw bmrlike ojo livevoice recently

(town won on 7)

[rocky idol]

me with harpy

[sour harness]

Hey I put it on a bmrlike recently (it was more of a thought experiment tho lol)

[gray ridge]

When I was ojo town almost won d3 🔥

[indigo osprey]

when I was Ojo, I won

it is a game I posed in highlight

because I think it was a really good game of me

[gray ridge]

I won due to killing the PD

[indigo osprey]

I won by keeping the poppygrower alive :p

[gray ridge]

And one of my minions gaining the fm ability and executing their target

🔥

[indigo osprey]

lol

[fresh shard]

PG in play is definitely a case where OJo excels yeah, as long as the ST doesn't direct misses onto your minions

[next marlin]

that reminds me, when are we getting the ojo axowall

[fast anchor]

when i get a decent buffer of script posts and can start working on character analyses 😭

[indigo osprey]

I hit a townsfolk every night. (One night a particular tf was innkeeper protected.)

[austere steppe]

Man all this talk of Ojo punishing is wild. The ST's job is literally to tell the best story, colloquially that means F3; 33/33/33. Helping good stomp via punishing probably isn't going to achieve that goal.

[cyan reef]

I think the word "punish" should be banned for all Storytellers 😛

[ivory ridge]

so true

that’s why Mayor should always die

no second chances for you

[indigo osprey]

It’s not punishing as it is: rewarding

[rocky idol]

i disagree on the percentages

like you want a 50/50 at least

[tardy wyvern]

This is why the first time the ojo misses you should instantly kill to final 3 /s

[ivory ridge]

godspeed 🔥

[supple dirge]

No its why when the ojo misses you kill them for being wrong

[gray ridge]

if the ojo misses you kill all minions

[austere steppe]

Oh yeah. And the percentages can be misleading too. There are games where there isn't enough info/social and it's just a literal coin flip 50/50. And there are times where compelling reasons/narratives for both people to get the chop exist, so it's still a 50/50 but to players in the game who sit on one side or the other it's not a 50/50.

The latter being the type of finale most story tellers should aspire to create, regardless of 50/50 or 33/33/33.

[dry sluice]

it's nice when the game reaches f3, but ideally that happens as a result of players' choices, not the ST's choices. like, I dislike giving weak savant info because the Sage successfully baited the demon, or giving the Drunk obviously wrong information because evil is stomping

[rocky idol]

I hate it when games end with a cointoss. The thing is, it's not always easy to reach the other point.

(On the subject of unsatisfying endings: I don't like "evil rise ups" — much more common in teensies, I would note.)

[tacit fiber]

I disagree, evil rise ups I like bc of how hard they are to achieve

[rocky idol]

i feel like they happen in a good 20% of games

[austere steppe]

Yeah for sure. My point is that 'Punishing' at an individual player level is probably never going to help you get to an enjoyable F3. Now, good stomping because good made the most of their info is a good story (i.e. fun for the group). Evil stomping by evil making the most of their abilities and/or tricking good into not using theirs effectively is a good story (i.e. fun). ST machina that helps good stomp by punishing evil misplays, or vice versa is probably not a good story, and probably not fun. Maximise that player agency homies!

[next vault]

"there's not enough socials"

Me being socially good trying to make the most out of my overly complicated Balloonist bluff

[fast anchor]

14/1: It's day 1 of a BMR game and you're the Gossip. What are some of your go-to statements?

[fresh shard]

"[One third of the circle] contains two or more evil players"

[karmic slate]

Either “these roles are in play”, actually sensible clock/chef numbers, or something wacky about positioning on grim “the demon is within 2 steps of 1 outsider”

[acoustic chasm]

An evil player is sat next to an outsider

I find at least in our group right now, it's fairly easy to tell what's a real gossip statement from a sea of fakes

[tidal quiver]

because of this I sometimes like to say a gossip that sounds fake, like "X person is the demon/minion"

[next vault]

"X is in play"
"Y is not in play"
"Mastermind in play"
"X/Y/Z demon"

[karmic rose]

"[1/4 of the circle] contains the demon"

"There's a mastermind in play"

"All three of [roles claimed to me d1] are in play"

[indigo osprey]

'this half of the grim has the demon' (I don't get it: you are literally an each day artist and people use it for irrelevant information lol)

[ivory ridge]

is not saying anything optimal

🤔

[karmic slate]

Because I wanna be fun and creative 😌

[cold veldt]

“[player] is evil”. I like knowing there’s players I can trust

[indigo osprey]

boo

[karmic slate]

But also jk, playing optimally is also a fun way to play

[ivory ridge]

i think the problem with gossip is that

there's a lot of stuff that muddle kills

and make your statement just kinda unreliable sometimes

[indigo osprey]

Sure, but that's no argument to make the gossip statement less valuable?

lile

'Oh, my artist information could be poisoned, so I'll just ask something not as valuable' makes no sense :p

[ivory ridge]

i don't think that's to the same degree

[indigo osprey]

no, but lie

yes gossip statements can be 'poisoned' on BMR by other sources

how is that an argument for making the most optimal/best gossip statements?

[cold veldt]

I do think that’s kinda the point of bmr 🤔

[indigo osprey]

again, gossip is literally an each night artist

you get a yes/no answer

[ivory ridge]

i can see the argument for not gossiping d1 specifically to make the courtier hit more favorable

[indigo osprey]

yes, there might be sources that obfuscate the info

but that's an argument to ask more valuable info rather than less :p

[cold veldt]

as if courtier hasn’t already hit DA

[ivory ridge]

that's skill issue i can't lie

[cold veldt]

or godfather if they’re feeling real spicy

[ivory ridge]

also i think figuring out demon type early is important

idk, i think that not gossiping for 1 day has certain benefit that make the strategy viable

[indigo osprey]

figuring out who the demon is, is even more important :p

[ivory ridge]

i think bmr can be hillariously tunneled at time

[karmic slate]

Damn when did https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1104980997470171177 become #bad-moon-rising fr fr

[ivory ridge]

so like

did you really figure out who the demon is

or is it assassin

or the gossip sink on tinker

[zenith lotus]

i mean, that is kind of the puzzle for any gossips made

[ivory ridge]

"everyday artist question" when artist is a straight up binary info role that arbitrary answer d1 make it very tracable on snv

[ivory ridge]

right but my point is that it function a lot differently than "every day artist"

artist doesn't nearly have the amount of puzzle that is needed to jump through

nor can it remain completely unsolvable at time

[zenith lotus]

okay, but why is that an argument to not gossip about the demon?

[ivory ridge]

tracking tinker death and innkeeper protection is kinda, not possible at time

[ivory ridge]

like what

[zenith lotus]

isnt that your point? I agree that gossip isnt exactly an each day artist but i thought you were arguing against doing that

[ivory ridge]

i'm arguing that you don't have to gossip every day

not, not gossiping

(excluding obvious case like gossiping on f5)

[zenith lotus]

oh okay

[ivory ridge]

like i can see day 1 not gossip to rule out specific worlds

and also to not put a target behind your back

[indigo osprey]

The point wasn’t that you shoudn’t gossip every day (which you should, not gossiping is silly), but the point was that people waste gossips on pretty irrelevant info

[ivory ridge]

right but that's not my point

that's yours

[indigo osprey]

Well, and you were arguing against it lol

[ivory ridge]

eh

i find the act of not gossiping vs gossip just 'will this potentially rule out more world than not, and does this ruled-out world result in a better understanding of gamestate'

binary act and what not

[young sonnet]

^^^ this one

[acoustic chasm]

See, that's all very well

But once evil find out you're the gossip (which in some groups, is quite easy)

They have the most control over night deaths

For instance, as shab, in a group of medium to less experienced players

[fast anchor]

If evil knows the truth value of what you're gossiping, and that you're the gossip, they just sink when you're right and kill when you're wrong

[acoustic chasm]

I quite easily found the gossip on d1 just from the gossip statements, and the fact that the others were messing around with them

And I just sunk for some days

They got the demon type wrong

[sour harness]

Notably that kind of thing has the side effect of telling evil something about the gamestate 👀

[acoustic chasm]

And got surprised when a final 5 ended the game with 2 alive the next day

[sour harness]

So like, maybe gossip about a tinker or innkeeper but not a minstrel or goon?

[indigo osprey]

this presupposes that they know that you are the gossip, of course, which they shouldn't if everyone is doing their part

that said

[sour harness]

They can tell

[indigo osprey]

if people are actively sinking... that is something to take into account

[acoustic chasm]

Those types of 'split the grim' statements only work if you get everyone's gossip to be 'split the grim'

[sour harness]

They're literally evil

[acoustic chasm]

which is IMO incredibly boring

[sour harness]

^^ and they split it in different ways

I do think "only work" is an overstatement

[acoustic chasm]

but it is a way to play the game

sure

[indigo osprey]

it is boring

[acoustic chasm]

I more mean

[indigo osprey]

but is the most effective way to gossip

[acoustic chasm]

Everyone needs to be gossiping like that

And evil cant figure it out

[indigo osprey]

just like artist splittign the grim is by and large the most effective way of playing artist (assuming no scarlet)

yeah

[fast anchor]

yeah i disagree with that, i think as long as multiple people can viably be the Gossip and are making threatening statements that evil cares about obfuscating those kinds of grim splits can work

[indigo osprey]

indeed

that's what should be happening

[acoustic chasm]

I more mean gossiping effectively

But yes

I did overstate my case

I'd argue the most effective way to gossip at least in the early game is to gossip about things evil need to have effort to figure out

The evil knows if the 'Godfather is in play'

So can play around that

[sour harness]

The reason I think it's not optimal is because it obscures the kill count so incredibly much. It's BMR, you're never solving with 100% certainty whether or not your gossip went through. So why let the demon type hide so easily with such high entropy statements?

[acoustic chasm]

They might not know if the demon is within 2 steps of an outsider

[sour harness]

Splitting the grim is great for an artist because you get direct feedback and there's no real downside

[acoustic chasm]

And those types of gossip of 'demon is 2 steps of an outsider' might in practice be similar to splitting the grim

But in a way that evil need to work way harder to figure out if they need to sink or not

[indigo osprey]

this is also true for your 'the sailor chooses the minstrel' statements

you are also never solving with 100% certainty whether or not your gossip went through

so why not... choose a statement that also gives way more information rather than at best a knight 2 statement on 2 players (admittedly: knight 2 is pretty strong on BMR)

like

[sour harness]

Yes, but being low entropy means you investigate the higher kill count nights more and consider worlds where those gossips are true

[acoustic chasm]

Its an optmisation problem, you are balancing 'how likely is evil to add/take away kills' from your statement, and 'how useful is the statement'

[indigo osprey]

'oh, we can't know for certain if the gossip kill went through' is true for all statements

[sour harness]

Whereas most of the time you're not messing with the count

[acoustic chasm]

Now, perhaps 'how useful is the statement' is really the thing of much larger importance

[fresh shard]

I do think some statements are more likely to be obscured than others (e.g. "there is no Assassin in play")

[acoustic chasm]

so you can ignore 'how likely is evil to add/take away kills' knowing that you are the gossip

[fast anchor]

I think something to consider as well is how likely it is the statement's true

on BMR I tend to gossip statements I think are false

[indigo osprey]

'there is a po in play' is the best

especially when going to final 5

[acoustic chasm]

very useful statemnt there!

[sour harness]

"today is a mastermind day"

[acoustic chasm]

I think evil wins too often if there is a po in play

so

To balance the average games won or lost for good/evil if there is a po in play with that statement

I just kill the po with that gossip

storytelling is just about balancing things out right

[sour harness]

Surely

Hey vati you should play more bmr

[next marlin]

Remember to always get the game to a final 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[acoustic chasm]

I do!

Sadly the final 3 is always a typhon line

what am I DOING WRONG???

[fresh shard]

Even if it means giving the Yaggababble an impossible phrase and then, on the one day they actually get kills, sinking all of them

Surely the Gossip won't figure out that they are the only source of kills

[fast anchor]

for more surgical statements about the gamestate, I find it more useful to gossip something like "the Sailor drunked themselves last night" when I talked to a Sailor claim who chose a Chambermaid claim, since I think that's probably false and if two kills do happen, it gives a place to start looking (the sailor claim)

[acoustic chasm]

that is interesting

[fast anchor]

and if 0-1 kills happen, great, i'm pretty sure the Sailor and their pick are good

[sour harness]

Nah just gossip that the walls are white every day (the group can't decide between white and beige)

[next marlin]

endgame with 3 living players, literal only thing that matters

[fast anchor]

maybe the Demon sunk, maybe it's a Zombuul game, but we can deal with that later

[next marlin]

also sorry for the delay I had to find the right meme

[sour harness]

Livetext BMR right now

Also good luck beating me to death when I can't die :sunglas:

[acoustic chasm]

livetext?

more like live in text

[sour harness]

#livetext-game

You should join the cult

[next marlin]

!livetextintro

[digital drum]

Welcome to Livetext Games!

Familiarizing yourself
The people in the livetext community are always happy to help a new player out. You can hang out and chat in #livetext-game-general and find the full rules in #livetext-rules-and-info, which also has details on how games are run! Be sure to get the LFGLivetext and ANNLivetext roles (with the -role command, or in #roles) to get pinged with announcements and when a game is starting.

Joining a livetext game
Livetext games happen in #livetext-game. STs will usually ping the LFGLivetext role when a game is recruiting, and you can ask to join by pinging the stlivetext role! If they agree, there are two quick things to do:

1. Type -role livetext to get the pingable @Livetext Game Player role, which will be pinged for all in-game announcements during the game.
2. Make a private thread for communication with the Storyteller (called an ST thread). You can do this through the Discord UI or <@&956218429944250481>'s >sw (StartWhisper) command, in the format >sw "thread name" @player to include.
   During the day, people who agree to whisper with each other use the same command to make whisper threads.

Often, there will also be scheduled livetext games. They can be found in the #livetext-event-listings channel if you run the /list command with <@&778490194596331522>.

General Expectations
Games usually last two hours or so, though it depends a lot on the script. Set aside at least 1.5 hours for Teensyville games (5-6 players), and 2.5 for larger games. Make sure you have enough time available before committing to a game.

[acoustic chasm]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

GET 9IT OURT AFOS HERE

the only game I played of livetext had me exeing the demon off an incorrect solve

[zenith lotus]

see? amazing

[acoustic chasm]

and it was literally just me

gunning for the demon for a bit

off a bad solve

then others were like 'yea i wanna lets do this yay'

[next marlin]

I think I've seen more livetext vortox games where town identified the demon off of misinfo than ones where they solved it as vortox

[karmic slate]

Ahhhhh I remember when I thought this was the goal. Good times good times.

[fast anchor]

type 3 error 🤩

[sour harness]

That's because I wasn't STing, I promise if you play one of my games it'll be MUCH worse :)

[next marlin]

#time-isnt-real

[sour harness]

THERE WAS NO BOMB

[fast anchor]

As soon as I ran a game nobody had fun in because I shab-rezzed a second time I immediately reevaluated what my goals were as an ST. worked out 🥳

[next marlin]

I manifested it

[fast anchor]

It's something every storyteller goes through I think

you just need to run a bad game where you're trying too hard to balance to a f3, and then you realize what your priorities are

[acoustic chasm]

shoudl you aim for at least 1 shab rez per game

[fast anchor]

you learn, you get better, you start running games that might end sooner but have more people having fun

[acoustic chasm]

(totally not asking because I'm running a shab script soon)

[karmic slate]

Honestly with Shab too because you sit there during the night going “if I regurgitate … good almost certainly wins, if I don’t … evils win” and it’s a really good moment to reflect on what being an ST is meant to be

[sour harness]

Typically about 1 yeah

[fast anchor]

yes

[gray ridge]

"Id like to gossip that there's/theres no outsider mod"

[tacit fiber]

If X, Y, and Z was executed, exactly 2 have a chance or certainty to not die.

[sour harness]

In really big games 2 is more reasonable sometimes, it really depends on gamestate

[fast anchor]

See, this is why you shab rez on n3

every time

[acoustic chasm]

once ok

[fast anchor]

You never have to deal with the kingmaker rez

[acoustic chasm]

maybe twice

[fast anchor]

just have good win every time 🤩

[karmic slate]

But the beautiful thing is that honestly most of the time you let evil win and town goes “yeah no that makes sense”

[fast anchor]

(but seriously, learning the art of "fuck it, i'll shab rez early so I don't have to shab rez late" is what made me confident about running Shab again)

[karmic slate]

Like they signed up for this

[sour harness]

A res should almost make up for the fact that evil has literally twice the killing power good does

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[sour harness]

Like how zombuul matches good's pacing in terms of eliminating demon candidates

[acoustic chasm]

lets see, as shab in a game i almost rezzed twice after causing 4 deaths in

3 nights

4 nights actually, i was exorcised in one of them

[sour harness]

The res gives town about 1 more execution (a little less) and lets that player help town find the demon for longer

[acoustic chasm]

that was the reason i didnt rez the 2nd time

tbf it was a team of like very experienced evils compared to less experienced good players. Also the gossip gossiping 'Me or (my godfather bluffing my grandchild Pacifist)' is the Demon did send shivers down my spine

[next vault]

https://tenor.com/view/sink-cuisine-amenagement-equipee-design-gif-8476897548120197244

[ivory ridge]

i think if ur gossip, [x is evil] is not a bad gossip

or

[demon sit next to an outsider]

[next vault]

Demon next to an outsider is good

[ivory ridge]

the problem is people just meta you because the bazillion other people gossip shit like "i am the gossip"

dies

[next vault]

Yeah I dont like that

I'm Shay

[ivory ridge]

i am a person for fun and whimsy but stop juggling and gossiping nonsense 😭

[sour harness]

No, I'm juggling you as the vortox

[next marlin]

Well that's fine (I'm one of the other demons)

[next vault]

You get a 0 (It's a Vortox game)

[ivory ridge]

Ok hear me out

Imagine juggling someone as Vortox

And then get a 0

And then realized it’s a Vortox game

[next marlin]

.

[barren zenith]

That doesn't work.

Unless you got a 1

[next vault]

It works

[rocky idol]

it does work

[next vault]

If you realize it's Vortox

That 0 is fake

[rocky idol]

Things You Should Not Do In SnV
#195: Vigormortis/ET in 1-minion games
#196: Ask "Is it a Vortox game?" as an Artist question
#197 (new!): Give a Juggler a 2 when they juggle 1 player as the Vortox

[barren zenith]

You get a 0 in a non-vortox game and likely a 0 in a vortox game

[barren zenith]

#198 suggest to play BMR next if you are playing with Vati

[rocky idol]

haha

[next marlin]

loving the implied length of this list

[barren zenith]

TB is the best base script tho imo

[rocky idol]

ok now we gotta make the whole list

[next vault]

alia send me the full list frfr

[next marlin]

-# The joke was funny the first 20 times, the reason I get obviously annoyed at it is that it stopped being funny and not because of any feelings about BMR

[rocky idol]

suggest me things not to do in snv

[sour harness]

#53: give the vortoxed math a 69
#54: give the vortoxed oracle a 69

[feral snow]

Math 475

As a philosopher, don’t choose Klutz

[next marlin]

#55: give the dashiied math a 69

[barren zenith]

Give mathematician decimal numbers

[next vault]

#1: Put Flowergirl in the bag

[next marlin]

No it's Clockmaker you can't put in

Flowergirl is fine because they just get executed d1 after being dreamt as Flowergirl/Fang Gu

[next vault]

True

[next marlin]

also loving the assumption in the react

[next vault]

What's the biggest no-no in TB other than "yes but no" with Recluse/Spy

[barren zenith]

Spoisoner with no info

[next vault]

Cry about it

[barren zenith]

WW seeing mayor, then mayor-bouncing every night

[next vault]

B-but we want a Mayor win

[next marlin]

Every single washerwoman-confirmed mayor I have ever seen was executed by overwhelming acclaim

[barren zenith]

It's only when they are trusted

That you don't bounce

And WW helps them a lot when it comes to becoming trusted

[ivory ridge]

i hate ww mayor so much

[ivory ridge]

oh i mean like

realize it's a vortox game with other information

and then you're like "wait"

[tacit fiber]

Drunk Mayor

[fast anchor]

I STed a game where someone asked that artist question

they were ND-poisoned and everything 😭 it was so sad

[barren zenith]

I have no idea how I forgot this

Drunk RK is sad too

[fast anchor]

imo both are fine

[tacit fiber]

it's sad but like

[ivory ridge]

give the clockmaker a 5

[tacit fiber]

Drunk Mayor with 0 indicator that it is...

[fast anchor]

drunk mayor is a bit sad but if you've got a UT, RK, librarian it can help

and drunk RK is perfectly admissible

[tacit fiber]

I agree with the second

[tacit fiber]

the thing is

[ivory ridge]

and some people can be like "i can't interfere with clockmaker 5 game!"

so the solution is to not put clockmaker in

[shrewd cloud]

Drunk Mayor is mostly something I think should avoided in new player games. With more experienced players though and a little more attention to bag building, I think it can be fine

[next marlin]

Drunk Mayor (all other townsfolk are Dreamers)

[barren zenith]

Yeah, it's the same as everything, but it's generally safer to just make the mayor not drunk imo

[zenith lotus]

show the poison sniped WW the Drunk Mayor

[shrewd cloud]

Don’t disagree there, it can absolutely be feelsbad in some situations. But it’s not something that should be completely impossible is my main point

[zenith lotus]

😉

[barren zenith]

In a game I played, the spy confirmed a drunk mayor as the mayor once 😭

Which is fair play to them imo

We actually went for the mayor win

And lost

[next marlin]

Spy makes Drunk Mayor significantly worse, because in a non-spy game evil can reasonably just nightkill the mayor by accident at some point, so it's not wholly unjustifiable

(I think it's still a way more interesting dynamic for mayors to be "real or lying")

But there's significantly less opportunity to solve for drunk mayor in a spy game because the spy can just guarantee the mayor doesn't get hit

[ivory ridge]

get better tbh

🔥

can evil ever win this hmmm

fang gu can right?

actually fang gu can't even win 😭

[fast anchor]

dashii and seat 9 is an outsider

[barren zenith]

Mutant is new to the game and breaks immediately

[next marlin]

I remember someone mentioning an 8p game that was immediately reracked after the ST realized the implications of making the clockmaker with a 4 the good twin

[barren zenith]

(Don't make a new player the mutant good twin is the way to solve this one)

[next marlin]

they gotta learn somehow

[ivory ridge]

yeah that's fair

i'd rather be meta'd 😭

than putting that in

[ivory ridge]

true!

they will learn the hard way with cere/pithag/vigor

talking about that

to make the experience most frustating

the vigor and a minion should also claim twin d1

[fast anchor]

executing into the twins' demon candidates is a twin solver

[ivory ridge]

claim twin d1, cere sink, then execute the plan on d2

[barren zenith]

Actually, when was the last question?

[fast anchor]

I just asked it

earlier today

it was the gossip one

[barren zenith]

Ok

[fast anchor]

top

[barren zenith]

"This is not a po game" is always nice as you can determine whether the most deadly demon in BMR for its patience and ferocity is in play.

Or just doing "the demon is between these two players"

[acoustic chasm]

i like that BMR's demons just have the almanac writers as their hype-men

[ivory ridge]

wdym

[barren zenith]

Is it also the almanac? I thought it was just the wiki

[acoustic chasm]

i meant wiki writers

ye

wiki

didn't realise its not in the almanac

[barren zenith]

They are all "the deadliest demon in BMR" btw @ivory ridge

[ivory ridge]

😭

help

why is it like this

[ivory ridge]

wait i also love how

[barren zenith]

Because then people think BMR is balanced lol

[ivory ridge]

"The sinister Zombuul"
"The devious Pukka"
"The mighty Shabaloth"

and then there's

"The Po"

[acoustic chasm]

the po needs its simplicity

[ivory ridge]

wait there's a fucking format too

[acoustic chasm]

yup

[ivory ridge]

the last sentence is always "The good team"

[next marlin]

yeah I was copying that format when I wrote this

[acoustic chasm]

ultimate hype men

[next marlin]

like I was trying to write that in the same voice as the bmr ones

[barren zenith]

"The obvious and annoying creator of 15 day long games sinister zombuul"

[ivory ridge]

"The"

wait

[rocky idol]

who isn't me

[ivory ridge]

the almanac entry for the imp

is just new player 101

[fast anchor]

if the fang gu is renegade, what about the other s&v demons?

i could see a slippery no dashii (just off vibe), a cunning vigormortis (the way it kills its minions), and a devastating vortox (the way it trashes a lot of info)

[next marlin]

Yeah the tb entries are written assuming someone is coming in without any concepts

[next marlin]

I considered all of these adjectives

I forgot why I ended up using the ones I did

I came up with the vortox one first

[ivory ridge]

funnily enough, Vortox is the only entries of SnV demon with the word deadly on it

[next marlin]

It's also, I think, the only entry for any demon that describes it outright as the weakest demon on a script

[ivory ridge]

what

there's no weak unfortunately

[ivory ridge]

oh

😭

do we know the demon winrate for snv and bmr?

like individual demon

[next marlin]

No

[foggy grotto]

BMR would never

[next marlin]

The devious Pukka is the worst demon in Bad Moon Rising for its unpredictability and counterplayability

[ivory ridge]

tbf

it's even worse

the entry just say

"if you're winning, the good team is just stupid"

[next vault]

Pukka is incredibly strong in BMR

"yeah let's do science" 🗨️ ( )

[austere steppe]

Puka is not strong. It gets shafted so hard by good playing poorly.

[tardy wyvern]

proceeds to die night 2 and figure out they were pukka poisoned

[next vault]

ok but you make a lot of the science useless

which is very strong

[tardy wyvern]

no? a tea lady’s neighbor dying is not useless

that’s… the whole point of science

[rocky idol]

wlel, it's no longer confirmation

[supple dirge]

If someone next to the tea lady dies that day and next night the tea lady dies its a good chance they were pukka poisoned

[dry sluice]

Then, if a tea lady's non-demon neighbor is executed, the demon should consider killing the tea lady to make it look like a pukka snipe

[supple dirge]

Thats basically how all clocktower goes yes

[tardy wyvern]

yes but if the tea lady is smart they won’t out that they’re the tea lady in the process

[supple dirge]

Good idea to talk to your neighbors and see if they will nominate themselves to make it ambiguous what they're testing for. Someone nominating their neighbors and going 'science' is usually a tea lady lol

[tardy wyvern]

This is why you arbitrarily pick a player and privately ask them to nominate on your behalf lol

[austere steppe]

Then just DA lol

BMR being BMR

[acoustic chasm]

did wizard's flavour text change?

i do like the new one

[zenith lotus]

yea it did

i prefer the genies are overrated thing still, but the new one is okay

[dense moat]

It also means enbies aren't stars

"Every man and every woman is a star"

[next marlin]

I like the new one because based reference but I notice a lot of the new releases have references/quotes as their flavour text

[tacit fiber]

what's the reference?

[dense moat]

Which others?

[next marlin]

It's the principle behind Thelema, Aleister Crowley's occult philosophy/religion-of-a-sort

[next marlin]

Zealot was another (from 1984)

[feral snow]

Zealot and Wizard are the only recent ish ones

and Alsaahir

VI isn't original

i found sources with it elsewhere

[next marlin]

But yeah I like the new flavour text better because the manifestation magick roles deserve it

[young sonnet]

That makes me feel better about how some of my homebrew character's flavor texts are just direct references

[sour harness]

Come, sit with me, my fellow traveler. Let's sit together and watch the stars die.

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What are your favourite types of demons to play?

[indigo osprey]

Atheist (I am usually the ST)

[hollow oasis]

Legion(I am Half ST)

[tacit fiber]

Lil Monsta

[fresh shard]

Ones which give me interesting choices beyond kill target, so Imp, Po, Vigormortis

[fresh shard]

Where is this from

[sour harness]

Outer Wilds :D

It's the flavor text for Procyon's Sterenae

[fast anchor]

Ones where I can stop being the Demon or otherwise have less responsibility (Imp, Fang Gu, Lil' Monsta, Legion)

[shrewd cloud]

Starting Fang Gu for the same reason as Axolator (less responsibility), though Imp and Lil Monsta are also nice

Mobility in general is so useful for Demons and makes it much less stressful as one mistake is less likely to tank the evil team

[next marlin]

I've come around to enjoying a "just don't be a demon candidate" playstyle

[karmic rose]

‼️ outer wilds mention ‼️

[next marlin]

But I also don't roll demon that often

[tardy wyvern]

i hate playing demon

if i had to pick one probably imp

i haven’t played as every demon though

[rocky idol]

Po

not that i've ever been the po

obviously

(In general, I like Demons with lots of strategic components. Imp, Po, Vigormortis, the like. Yaggababble's fun too, but I've never pulled it 😢)

[karmic rose]

my group likes to exe me early, so something that can handle that (imp, fang gu, Levi, Lleech in a pinch)

[tardy wyvern]

I want to be the po at some point, po is probably my favorite demon in the game ngl

I wish it worked on more customs

[young sonnet]

Anything with misinfo, I enjoy building worlds & my bluffs around their sobriety

[gray ridge]

LM (I can choose to not be the demon 🔥)

[ivory ridge]

hmmm

Imp

probably just Imp

every other demon is a bit of a pain to play

[next marlin]

everyone trying to wriggle out of the demonhood smh

[ivory ridge]

yes but also i think imp is easily the most adaptable demon out of all demon

i don't think there are any other demon that come close (?)

[next marlin]

the adaptable imp when its minions in a 15p are cere/psycho/vizier:

[ivory ridge]

you jest but i'd say it remain true

just have an investigator and don't out psycho

[vale oxide]

LM, Po, Alhad

[young sonnet]

Okay but Psycho/Imp is low-key kinda interesting

[sour harness]

Vizier imp is interesting for the same reasons imo

Also ET imp

[next marlin]

you used to argue with me about twin/imp smh

[sour harness]

ESPECIALLY with the viz + preacher/courtier jinxes

Did i

I think quadjank changed me

[ivory ridge]

twin imp is

hmmm

[sour harness]

It's not, like, good

[ivory ridge]

but a vigor on script

[sour harness]

But it's interesting

[ivory ridge]

vigor imp finally go together

[next marlin]

twin/imp is cool because amongst other things it's a way for the game to continue after a twin execution without mechconfirming the evil twin always

snv covers this through pithag but this is often really bad for evil

given the safety net deal

twin/imp starpasses to a safety net but in a more interesting way than imp/scarlet

[ivory ridge]

i don't like imp scarlet anyway 😔

[tacit fiber]

common mizu L

[flat lintel]

1/15 - What's the best musical? What's your favorite song from it?

[foggy grotto]

Oklahoma! has really good music but the plot is boring af

i’m also partial to Guys and Dolls since i’m doing it rn

[feral snow]

Matilda (I was in the band)

[gusty bear]

chicago was pretty fun, i did backstage for it at my school ||although the cast were mostly assholes||, and "we both reached for the gun" and "cell block tango" are both bangers

honestly all the billie flynn songs go hard actually

[flat lintel]

listening to cell block tango rn hehe

[ivory ridge]

I like quite a few musical

Wilkommen from Cabaret is pretty good

[feral snow]

Ooh Chicago is good

I thought spamalot was pretty funny

[tacit fiber]

I am not involved in the musical scene so...

Hamilton, 10 Duel Commandments

[flat lintel]

I feel like I keep associating that ||with his death||

[sharp violet]

that's because they directly call back to that song in the scene where he dies ||The World Was Wide Enough||

[karmic slate]

Ride the Cyclone :3
Either Ballad of Jane Doe or Jawbreaker

[coarse fern]

Hadestown
Definitely wedding song

Hadestown is so underrated it’s wild

[flat lintel]

It is not underrated. It's rated tbh

[ivory ridge]

Imagine not Noah’s Lament

[tidal quiver]

Currently doing tech for Chicago myself!

But I've gotta say Valjean's Soliloquy/Who Am I from Les Mis

[tardy wyvern]

I’m gonna be unique and say heathers even though I think I like hamilton more

my favorite song from heathers is either candy store, dead girl walking, or seventeen

[dense hound]

Ride the cyclone, heathers, the percy jackson musical are all pretty good imo

[lucid crag]

last I remember it was a Kyle who was FT, unless you're Kyle

[zenith lotus]

im not kyle, but it was definitely me. This was my third game on the server

[dense moat]

1/16: Which of the expansions are you looking forward to most? When they come out, which would you want to play/ST first? If so, why?

My answer is STing Midnight. I really wanna see how an experienced group can play around the higher possibility space

[acoustic chasm]

I am excited for Garden of SIn

I like taking ambitious information bluffs

GoS sounds like the type of script where its not gonna be like SnV townsfolk, the good team will have more limited information, but the implications of that information is way larger

[feral snow]

I think the one that excites me the most is MHD because there’s so much potential. Running the tomb sounds awesome though

I think I really like garden of sins theme and characters but the others are exciting me more

[karmic rose]

I'm definitely most excited for GoS, I know less about TT (and like the characters revealed for it less), and I don't have a playgroup that can handle MHD

[barren zenith]

I don't know the most: but I know the least. ||The Tomb|| sounds very good-sided tbh. ||GoS|| is SnV ||but leviathan||, which is fun. ||MHD|| sounds appealing to me, I like ||heretic|| a lot, basically quadjank but a full-sized script

[cold veldt]

I’m excited for Tomb. The speculation scripts I’ve played for it have been absolute bangers, so that means that the real thing is gonna rule

[sour harness]

I'm so incredibly excited for all of them

Don't make me choose

[barren zenith]

Yeah, that's fair, I've never played one of those scripts, scripts with Al-had are all I have to compare it to.

[tacit fiber]

Garden of Sin imo

I agree with Dylan about TT I'm not optimistic

[fresh shard]

Garden of Sin sounds the most conceptually interesting -- sounds like a very different flavour of Clocktower like how BMR is, and Ben says it tends to play out that way in practice too

Tomb feels conceptually underdeveloped to me, though the "good directs kills" thing has potential, and MHD needs a hook that isn't just "all the chaos" to hook me

I'm sure I'll enjoy the other two when they cone out but GoS is the only one that makes me actively think "I can't wait to play this"

[dry sluice]

I'm curious how GoS will reward lying as good, if there's no night deaths. I'd be disappointed if it were optimal on GoS for everyone to claim day 1.

[gray ridge]

GoS and The Tomb I think

MHD feels too volatile ngl

Oops all wincons

[tardy wyvern]

honestly all of them? but probably midnight and tomb more than garden because I don't adore the way that script seems to revolve around no deaths in the night

ngl I'm not super informed about what is going to be on each expansion though

[foggy grotto]

GsoE is also pretty hype it has some of the sillier characters like Yagga or Mez most likely

[sour harness]

I'm kinda disappointed by gsoe on a conceptual level tbh

You're telling me there's all these characters and they're not getting a home script???

[rocky idol]

honestly same a bit

[sour harness]

Now, if we get more official-unofficial custom scripts (like LuF and NGJ which were made by Steven Medway) and they include all the GSoE characters, that's a different story and I'll be much happier

[rocky idol]

agree

[next marlin]

I dunno, we have a lot of roles that would be just constrained by regimented scripts

[karmic rose]

balancing such that each character fits on exactly one official script sounds awful

[next marlin]

Kazali shouldn't have a homescript except CC

[sour harness]

I mean that's not what I meant

LuF and NGJ have characters from all 3 base scripts

But LuF also has stuff like balloonist and amne

[next marlin]

(similarly other super weird demons like Typhon seem difficult to really officialize/have de jure homescripts for)

[hollow oasis]

Typhon wants TB-likes and MHD likes

[sour harness]

I'm saying de facto home scripts not de jure home scripts

Like how kazali's home script is CC and boffin's is quadjank

-# ok maybe not the second one

[next marlin]

quasi-officializing existing customs for likely gsoe roles into de facto homescripts would be interesting ||and is almost definitely the case with widow||

[hollow oasis]

That’s true for vizier

[next marlin]

Typhon wants scripts that are never played at 7p/10p, which is definitionally a bit tricky

[hollow oasis]

Simply revolutionary pair

[ivory ridge]

so mez + heretic

[karmic rose]

fair enough

[gray ridge]

caliginous carnival

[next vault]

secret thing fans when secret thing is not so secret

[young sonnet]

Playing Garden of Sin

[young sonnet]

^^^^ I would appreciate showcase scripts alongside GSoE, but I think it's fine if we don't get them, we can make them as a community

[next vault]

Each night*, if someone mentioned any of the future scripts yesterday, delay them for a day. Good cannot win until the new scripts come.

[sharp violet]

Gives the same energy

[supple dirge]

Midnight is the most interesting to me ||wizard, legion, heretic|| makes it seem like a script so wild and out there that everyone has incentive to get wild with their bluffs, and everyone will need to figure out what the hell is going on. I'd love to ST and have an overview whats actually happening vs what players think is happening.

Garden of sin I'm most interested in playing as I love a good puzzle, and being able to relax and figure things out without the threat of night time deaths seems really fun.

The tomb I don't really know how it will play, mhd and gos seem to have a stronger core theme to me.

[coarse fern]

I’m most interested in TT, GoS feels like it’ll be very hit or miss and MHD feels like way too much

Midnight will be…. Something

[gray ridge]

It will probably be a very polarizing script

[sharp violet]

I'm excited to see GoS

[sour harness]

||man is wizard soft confirmed for midnight or something? I get that's it's a social script but I kinda don't wanna see a nonconformist on an official script :(||

[tacit fiber]

GoS is SnV 2

[sour harness]

GoS is not SnV 2

[tacit fiber]

TPI 100% learned things from the first time

[coarse fern]

That

[tacit fiber]

Why not

[sour harness]

GoS is SnV's town against a completely different evil team

[tacit fiber]

So it’s the protagonists from the first one going up against a new force

[coarse fern]

The town will definitely be balanced differently for that, it’ll probably be a bit more LuF and a bit less SNV

[tacit fiber]

That sounds like a sequel to me

[sour harness]

Sure, I don't think that constitutes SnV 2

If there's a sequel in any of these then TT is BMR 2. But also not really

[coarse fern]

I think they’re going for original script ideas on these

[sour harness]

Yeah they are

[coarse fern]

Midnight is definitely its own thing

[sour harness]

There are some loose parallels
info overload
race to win the game before the other team + gimmicky early execution dynamic
highly social

But like

Those are so loose

[coarse fern]

TB and MHD are probably not too similar

lol

[feral snow]

i think those are the closest

at least if i had to pair them up thats how i'd do it

[coarse fern]

I agree there

[feral snow]

MHD will likely be social like TB is

but thats about it

[coarse fern]

MHD will be so much more complex than TB

But yes, both are definitely high social scripts

[sour harness]

I mean TB has poisoner from trouble brewing

||and MHD has wiz apparently||

[hollow oasis]

MHD is TB on Expert Mode if it was actually good

[feral snow]

this is most likely, i dont think it is confirmed

i think ||impostor|| is a better analogy

[sour harness]

I don't know what that does and I think I'll be keeping it that way

[feral snow]

i think you'll like it

[sour harness]

I probably would

[fresh shard]

Ben has confirmed it has a home script

[sour harness]

Boooo

I'm sure it'll be fine tho lol

1/17/25: what's your favorite fabled character?

[flat lintel]

is on!

[rocky idol]

Probably Toymaker; Ferryman is also a candidate.

[next marlin]

Revolutionary is a super cool concept (that imo does Angel's job much better than it too)

[rocky idol]

yeah I am a certified angel hater

[flat lintel]

are like the only other ones I’d use

[ivory ridge]

gardener is my favorite

for

no particular reason

[rocky idol]

angel teaches players that death is mean and bad

[ivory ridge]

totally

[zenith lotus]

i like

its cool 😉

[ivory ridge]

i love illegal gardening

[dense hound]

Is too cheap an answer

[next marlin]

me playing mizu livevoice and mysteriously rolling demon for 23 consecutive games

[tacit fiber]

Revolutionary

I love accessibility tools

[ivory ridge]

i'd actually never do that

why would i do that when i could garden you as the lunatic in a legion game

[tacit fiber]

there's also Djinn, the thing that makes clocktower work, and Bootlegger, the thing that makes the best part of clocktower work.

[next marlin]

why would livevoice vote on a legion script

also unsolvable lunatics are townsfolk actually

[tacit fiber]

disagree

if a player dies/gets executed n/d1 then it can feel isolating and makes you feel like a blank token

[next marlin]

the lunatic and demon wincons are both "survive and get someone else killed" so if you might be the lunatic just find the guy who's the demon if you aren't and kill him in f3

[ivory ridge]

re: alch-pithag create good legion to prove vortox arbitrary death and scarlet woman starpass good legion to evil legion killing said vortox in a drunk atheist game

[tacit fiber]

Angel should be removed after d2-3 but it should be there so the person plays a little clocktower for their first game

one of my most recent games I was a Juggler who was exectued before getting my info and it felt like I sat the rest of the game out off of being unlucky

I would stop playing clocktower if that was my first time

[rocky idol]

this is fair

[ivory ridge]

if we're being serious though

my favorite fabled is probs

sentinel

(deliberately ignoring djinn because djinn isn't a real fabled)

[tacit fiber]

Cringe

Mizu L

Sentinel is unsolvable

/lh

[next marlin]

Revs still does a better job of filling this niche imo -- the new player has someone openly (and by extension not-inherently-suspiciously) in their corner, which makes them a harder d1 execution, and they have a direct lifeline to the game so if they do die n2 (which makes it harder to frame the rev pair as evil) they can still feel involved

[tardy wyvern]

easily storm catcher

I love fabled that add a new mechanic to the game and can have scripts built around them

[supple dirge]

I love stormcatcher. Reptiles 2 with stormcaught drunk and ok hear me out with stormcaught heretic are really fun scripts that use it in a unique way

[fast anchor]

reptiles 1 with stormcaught drunk 🥹

but seconding SC, there are a bunch of really fun stormcatcher scripts out there (reptiles and okay hear me out but also whose cult is it anyway and separation of church and state)

[ivory ridge]

sc are fun until you play an sc lycan game

[supple dirge]

Just wait till you guys see my stormcaught gambler script

[foggy grotto]

Stormcaught acrobat now works as well

[acoustic chasm]

i disagree. i think it will be about tracking predictable misinformation.

[barren zenith]

High info doesn't define SnV

[acoustic chasm]

I might be reading too much into the script descriptions

But it really does feel like SnV probably have the most 'info heavy' townsfolk

SnV's townsfolk get 'amazing' information, while GoS have everyone getting 'some'. I think it will be lower power, which is fair

[barren zenith]

Madness, demon mobility and all of the demons combined are what defines SnV more imo

[acoustic chasm]

Because just throwing Flowergirl on a Leviathan script is probably going to solo solve a game

[hollow oasis]

Like balloonist

[hollow oasis]

I can confirm, this happens

[acoustic chasm]

I'm not excited for GoS for having 'crazy' or even very novel characters

Even if I think there will be some standouts

And anything that's new is exciting

But I think it will create a great puzzle out of simple tools

The tools have to be simple, because then the whole 'info reversal' aspect of it might become a lot

thats me spitballing anyway

[hollow oasis]

If GoS has crazy characters i will be incredibly confused

Atheist doesn’t count

[acoustic chasm]

In context

Some might look suprising

[hollow oasis]

Atheist on GoS is different from Athiest on Customs

[acoustic chasm]

Imagine if BMR was unreleased

And then it got released

Zombuul????????????? WoOW LIVE WHILE DEAD?

Wait you can not die DURING THE DAY??

some things will look fresh, play with things we didn't expect

[sharp violet]

[acoustic chasm]

my favorite fabled is probably stormcatcher in theory

I've never made a stormcatcher script, but it's so interesting

[fresh shard]

The thing I find most interesting about the possible GOS character selection is we will have a ton of townsfolk balanced around fixed days and no killing at night

They'll probably be lower power than SNV just because info will be less able to become outdated and people will definitely be getting it for longer

Right now the only real attempts I've seen at full size GOS-likes have madness as a major threat in a way that contextualises the relevant characters very differently. And while that is interesting, it's inevitably not going to be what the actual character suite for GOS looks like

Amnesiac, in particular, sounds like it will be a lot more fun in its intended environment, in the same way it is on LuF

[gray ridge]

[shrewd cloud]

Stormcatcher can be interesting. I also like Bootlegger a lot from a theming perspective

[barren zenith]

I like a lot of them, but Sentinel is the most useful for script-building, therefore it's my favourite.

Stormcatcher is fun too

Doomsayer is good on RttB

[gray ridge]

Ive never seen HL go off

[foggy grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/me-when-pain-crying-gif-19361950

[tardy wyvern]

HL is usually just used as a threat, I've never seen anything actually be done about it

It's usually just a way for the ST to formally say "Hey guys you need to stop overtalking me for the game to actually progress"

[ivory ridge]

if HL ever go off, there's some problem in your game (which may or may not be caused by you)

[sour harness]

That or you're playing livetext

[ivory ridge]

livetext ST when they realized HL during grim reveal means nothing cuz the game is over:

[sour harness]

"your vote counts at .9 next game"

[ivory ridge]

do you really want to discourage the whopping 9 livetext regulars to not play

[sour harness]

It's not like votes matter in quadjank

[fresh shard]

What is quadjank

Am I going to love this or hate it

[zenith lotus]

it is a teensy based on the fact that every townsfolk can counter a vigor killed boffin giving the demon the alch vizier ability

[fresh shard]

HL is like refusing to honour Damsel guesses: the threat of it is enough to be the intended deterrent

[zenith lotus]

it is also amazing

[fresh shard]

Lmao that is so cursed

[fresh shard]

That's hilarious

[sour harness]

It's my child :)

It's a bad script by any reasonable criteria except for the fact that it consistently produces fun games

[barren zenith]

Question: if a demon with the boffin-preacher ability preaches the boffin, could the demon gain a new boffin ability?

This is just a random thought I had

[sour harness]

How are there STILL untapped interactions on this script

Yeah I think that just works

It's whatever the ruling is when a Boffin is preached then the preacher dies

Hmmmm

[sour harness]

I'd rule it that way, no idea how "correct" it is

This way it's a useful ability

The demon gets a bluff and can find their teammate

[fresh shard]

This is an interesting case that the droison loop rule feels like it should cover but doesn't

[acoustic chasm]

I feel like Ojo and High Priestess are unbalanced, but have enough ST control to force the ST to balance them

Ojo is weak. I agree that intentional misses can be rewarded with 2 mediocre kills. Its unintentional misses where people have different opinions.

Kill a spent character? Kill several? Kill a powerful character anyway becauae "Ojo is a demon ability so it shouldnt harm them?"

The "fair" decision is "oh the ojo made a mistake? Ok lets make the kill less good." The "fair" decision is often too weak though. Storytellers then make decisions that benefit the Ojo. Its core idea just isn't that strong. Storytellers need to make less fair decisions to keep ojo stronger.

High Priestess when run as "each night, learn sober+healthy good player with great info" is really really strong. It's also imo is the simplest way to read what the character is supposed to do.

Storytellers give the High Priestess to players who dont have as much to say. They say to themselves "the shugenja will surely out, so they aren't a useful target." This does make High Priestess more bluffable. As long as you can think of any reason to be sent to someone, you might be able to pull it off. But I think it goes against what the character says it does.

High Priestess is a really strong character, but it has a lot of ST choice. The Storyteller can run the character to be more balanced, but it means the High Priestess doesn't do what it says it does.

Of course this based on my opinion on how they should be run. Maybe others have different readings of the character texts.

[fresh shard]

I definitely agree that this is two sides of the same intuitional problem yeah

Ojo isn't really presented in a way where unintentional misses are still basically ST slot machine

But that's kinda how it needs to be for the demon ability to be on par with others

[sharp violet]

I think it would be good if intentional misses typically give 2 good kills (but not the best), unintentional misses give 2 mediocre kills, and falling for a bait role’s bluff kills the bait role + 1 more mediocre kill

[next marlin]

I used to think ojo misses should kill bait roles but "ojo's design is that it just sees through bait roles" makes more sense to me now

Bait role gambling is a more interesting way to work with that

[tacit fiber]

then Ojo and bait roles shouldn't be together

bc it seems just... sad as a bait role to know that you were not going to do the thing from the start

[next marlin]

The gambling thing makes it a decent bit better because if the ojo gets complacent you die

And ojo still has to work with the problem where a bait role who can get confirmation on them is either -1 demon candidate in f3 or a necessary kill

It's something to use a lot of caution with but it's workable

[acoustic chasm]

Ojo 'misses' are sold as bad. This is mainly by the community though.

[next marlin]

Banshee and rk are probably the best bait roles to share a script with ojo because they're the ones where proccing them on purpose is most viable for evil

[acoustic chasm]

They missed. They messed up.

[next marlin]

Yeah I see where the origin of the thought process came from

[acoustic chasm]

But I think that's mainly because it does make sense

[next marlin]

Ojo looks far far stronger on paper than it is and the idea of "misses should be punishing" originated from the time of the role's release when it looked gamebreakingly strong

[acoustic chasm]

A Demon where the upside is 'you can kill the most powerful good characters' feel like it should balance it by ' if good plays around you well enough for you to miss, they should be rewarded'

[next marlin]

Supposedly before ojo was released there was a speculation script for it that figured it was so strong it needed a stormcaught poppygrower for balance

[acoustic chasm]

If Ojo was strong, then the intuitive way to run it would be the way to run it

It rewards good for playing around it, and evil gets to kill their biggest threats

Good play affects Ojo's kills in a fair way

But ye, High Priestess is the other character

[tacit fiber]

High Priestess's problem is that if you lower the threshold of being a ping then anyone can be sent to

[acoustic chasm]

I will be honest, this toptic came from a game I was in kibitz for

[sour harness]

Literally just TB

[tacit fiber]

because there is benefit in every conversation

[acoustic chasm]

Where I suggested, in a game with no first night information, for the High Priestess to be sent to the Bounty Hunter

And I was told that was the 'only wrong choice because the ping would be outed anyway'

[tacit fiber]

???

[acoustic chasm]

And it just made me think that something very strange is happening to High Priestess

They were sent to the Moonchild instead

[next marlin]

Yeah I feel like a lot of the hp overcorrection comes from an alternate universe where everyone engages in d1 massclaim meta

[tacit fiber]

OH

ITS THAT GAME

[acoustic chasm]

Yes

yes

That's where this thought came from

I think on night 1 at least, you have to consider mainly information