I think it works well
#secret thing
sour harness
next marlin
"Custscripts inherits all my opinions somehow"
opens thread after a few hours
- "poisoner fits nowhere ever, trust me, ignore that this is the snv logic chains guy saying this" take
- "vati talks about the demons he never shuts up about ever" takes
yep
hollow oasis
(I kinda wish it’s homescript had boffin)
sour harness
Or boffin!
fresh shard
I agree but I don't think BMR in general is unbalanced
gusty bear
A lot of the time the answer is lleech/something that doesn’t work well with lleech for me personally (especially lleech/psycho/pg)
hollow oasis
Lleech PG is mean
gusty bear
Yaggababble homescript mentioned
next vault
Lleech PG is rough
fresh shard
All of the base scripts have an "anchor character" which can, under fairly easily replicable conditions, more or less unbluffably confirm themselves
next vault
Like what
hollow oasis
The problem with Professor there:
next vault
hollow oasis
It’s 2 lives better than virgin
fresh shard
Virgin, Professor, Dreamer
gusty bear
I assume the answers are virgin prof dreamer
next vault
Dreamer can definitely be bluffed
next marlin
Yeah we were talking about this yesterday I think
next vault
I've bluffed Dreamer as Vortox
hollow oasis
Dreamer is a hard bluff
fresh shard
Like these can be bluffed but they usually rely on bluffjng something going wrong
gusty bear
Although I think washerwoman is closer to dreamer/prof than virgin is
next marlin
Dreamer can definitely be bluffed
Dreamer is bluffable but the success state of dreamer is not reproducibly bluffable
fresh shard
Yeah we were talking about this yesterday I think
Yeah we were
cold veldt
dreamer is easy to bluff if you're cracked at soul reads
next marlin
Also, bluffing vortoxed dreamer doesn't count (unless it's a non-vortox game and you get away with it)
fresh shard
I feel like maybe these characters exist on purpose
hollow oasis
That’s the thing
fresh shard
I know Steven says the Prof is the character he would most like to revisit if he could
gusty bear
Simply claim to see everyone as mutant/vortox except your neighbour who you see as dreamer/nodashii
hollow oasis
(Dreamer kinda goes against the “bro trust me” of SNV)
next marlin
(Dreamer kinda goes against the “bro trust me” of SNV)
Dreamer is bluffable but "going up to somebody and coldcalling their role d1" is uhhh let's just say that's mostly bluffable between two evils coordinating
fresh shard
I think there is a worthwhile debate about whether "anchor characters" are an important defence against the game degenerating into pure socials
next marlin
(such that if you are a good player this happens to, the dreamer is functionally confirmed)
The real catch with bluffing dreamer is that even if you pull this off, you're eventually socially going to have to 'dream' someone you know is lying to you
hollow oasis
Anchor characters aren’t needs that much tbh
next marlin
And it's fairly easy for the demon in snv to tell if people are lying to them, but not to tell exactly what they're lying about
next vault
And it's fairly easy for the demon in snv to tell if people are lying to them, b...
Even minions
next marlin
You might be very sure someone is either the sage or the snake charmer, but that doesn't tell you which
next vault
Yeah sage-snarmer duality is something
hollow oasis
You might be very sure someone is *either* the sage or the snake charmer, but th...
Instant Cerenovus deployed
next vault
Something that I hate as someone who's always the Witch or the PH is Demons not trusting their PHs
next marlin
Even minions
I specify demon because you come out the bat knowing the exact info landscape and the exact outsider count, while minions might not know starting demon type for a little while (or ever if they forget to ask)
next vault
If you as a Fang Gu dont kill the guy that your PH is telling you to kill, you just lost the freest jump ever
next marlin
the pithag trying to turn the sage into an in-play outsider:
next marlin
These days I mostly play livetext where everyone but me kinda just hardclaims
It's very meta-dependent
next marlin
oh I saw dire ping you in livetext the other day btw
feral snow
I think it’s the script I run most in person
next vault
oh I saw dire ping you in livetext the other day btw
Yeah ik
He was asking me to play
But I couldnt because it was late
next marlin
you should 
fresh shard
I feel like the dynamic of Damsel, particularly, will change a lot depending on whether its home script has an anchor character
fresh shard
Because if you have one player who you KNOW you can safely out to, the character instantly becomes a lot less debilitating
(Not saying that would necessarily be a good thing)
next marlin
Yeah sage-snarmer duality is something
The thing I find most interesting about this is that it's specifically "sage/outsider/snake charmer" as the three groups of people probably lying to you, and the Fang Gu is both 1. the demon that has to deal with the most people lying to them and 2. the only demon that actually wants to kill into this group
Other demons can leave sage candidates to rot but FG has to try flee into a potential set of sage pings
Which is very cool and tempers it a bit
gusty bear
You only need to kill into snake charmers if you’re a coward
next vault
One of my favourite interactions in SnV is PH turning someone into a Minion just to be killed that night, as a "Vigor in play" bluff
next marlin
You only need to kill into snake charmers if you’re a coward
Some of us like playing demon
next vault
If you know where the snarmer is as a Demon you never kill them
next marlin
Only if you want to get snakecharmed
I intend to be the demon
Also if the snakecharmer lives to f3 and didn't pick you they might have picked everyone but you which is even worse
next vault
Oh yeah that sucks
gusty bear
Vati as the alch wizard wishing to become the offscript snake charmer and getting meta executed when the demon announces they’ve been snarmed
next marlin
Oh yeah that sucks
Anyway this is why you bluff philo-sc as the demon
(well, not if you think the sc will pick a philo-sc claim, because I intend to remain the demon, but)
next marlin
Vati as the alch wizard wishing to become the offscript snake charmer and gettin...
I'm wishing to become the politician smh
next vault
I once became Philo-Alch-Wizard-Recluse-Mutant-Puzzle Master-Plague Doctor
gusty bear
I see your alch wish was to become ||the hermit||
foggy grotto
Organ Grinder full stop
foggy grotto
also Midnight in the house of the Damned lite scripts are usually pretty bad
next vault
What's that?
foggy grotto
Midnight is an upcoming edition and people make versions of it with existing characters
they’re usually very messy and not very fun
next marlin
I intuit loudness as incompatible with glass-cannon-ness but I guess it's kind of one still
next vault
Which Demons would you consider glass cannons?
next marlin
kazali/vigor/lot are the big three
next marlin
Kazali's whole ability is "gamewarping socials at the cost of total mechanical fragility"
foggy grotto
Kazali’s whole ability is “build a custom evil team in exchange for being a vanilla demon”
which i guess is what you’re saying
feral snow
There’s more to it than that
next marlin
"custom evil team" is incredibly strong
foggy grotto
yes
feral snow
Minions also get free bluffs
next marlin
I actually feel like kazali tends to be the consistently-strongest (as noticeably distinct from highest-potential) of those three because it's the only one that can survive being solved for consistently and the one that requires the least from the demon player
vigor is "git gud: the role", which is an inherently rocky required characteristic for a role in a social deduction game where people's roles are randomized and most people draw "not demon" most of the time, and typhon is typhon is "if one evil is found we all lose"
acoustic chasm
my experience with LoT is that its a monster that has been unleashed onto BOTC and we can't go back
fresh shard
I've never seen it win a game
fresh shard
But I've also never seen it on a script with LM which I feel would temper it a bit
next marlin
it has a 150% winrate on china shop and a 1.50% winrate elsewhere
cold veldt
i've been in a LoT line like three times and we won each time
hollow oasis
LoT is good
acoustic chasm
it has a 150% winrate on china shop and a 1.50% winrate elsewhere
pfff
next marlin
but yeah swingy swingy demon
acoustic chasm
I've seen it win on another script
hollow oasis
(2 months after it’s release, it used to suck)
acoustic chasm
How on earth did LoT ever 'suck'
fresh shard
(Ok so, Lot/LM/Kazali/Ojo as a demon combo, discuss)
next marlin
when it was released people would meta it being in play
feral snow
The same way Kazali “sucked” according to every twitch, YouTube, and Reddit comment
hollow oasis
How on earth did LoT ever 'suck'
Found the line! (d2)
next marlin
which is obviously an unfortunate characteristic for a role that loses when solved for
feral snow
Nobody understands it
next marlin
The same way Kazali “sucked” according to every twitch, YouTube, and Reddit comm...
kazali is literally just "the kazali reveal game involved the kaz picking 2 outsiders"
fresh shard
I feel like Kazali gets a lot stronger with SW on script
acoustic chasm
IMO LoT's strength is that it turns BOTC into a more traditional Mafia game
hollow oasis
Kazali is stronger with summoner on script
feral snow
kazali is literally just "the kazali reveal game involved the kaz picking 2 outs...
Yeah that was unfortunate
acoustic chasm
Because its votes do matter
hollow oasis
LoT is more fun when killing the line actually ends the game
cold veldt
i will forever be grateful for LoT for introducing "Typhon line" into my wider BotC lexicon
acoustic chasm
And even if you find the line, it doesn't matter if there are no good players alive and you dont have enough votes to vote the demon out
next vault
kazali is literally just "the kazali reveal game involved the kaz picking 2 outs...
This is very unfortunate
feral snow
Kazali ofc benefits from certain minions more than others
SW is much stronger with Kazali though
hollow oasis
(Not a friggin whack a mole)
cold veldt
i will forever be grateful for LoT for introducing "Typhon line" into my wider B...
its so nice having a name for any line of people voting whether typhon is on script or not
acoustic chasm
ye
hollow oasis
Absolutely
next marlin
Anyway I'm working on an effortpost/vatiwall about extra evils rn and it reminded me that the player count scaling of typhon is weird
In a base 0 it is probably too strong
next marlin
Yeah I saw that and went "yeah that is definitely a grim"
fresh shard
Is that the same issue as FG
next marlin
Fang Gu is trickier
acoustic chasm
No
next vault
Imagine Psycho-Vigor 😃
acoustic chasm
Fang Gu needs to die
next marlin
The big balancing factor of Fang Gu is that there are no living +evils
acoustic chasm
To get its upside
cold veldt
Is that the same issue as FG
i was like "what flowergirl?"
fresh shard
The big balancing factor of Fang Gu is that there are no *living* +evils
Good point, I never considered this
next marlin
LoT is a living +evil and a whole extra minion which is insanely busted, at the price that evil can trivially lose on the spot
cold veldt
LoT has only 1 extra evil but it feels like it has 20
fresh shard
Pls ping me in this wall of text when you are done with it
acoustic chasm
LoT I think is one of the strongest demons in the game and it'll be hard for me to change my mind :P
next marlin
Imagine Psycho-Vigor 😃
Is extremely weak if you're not playing Midnight Oasis
next marlin
Pls ping me in this wall of text when you are done with it
It's gonna be a blogpost which I intend to post in custscripts
next vault
Is extremely weak if you're not playing Midnight Oasis
Really?
barren zenith
😭
fresh shard
Plus it will probably be obvious who is Vigor poisoned
next marlin
Really?
Vigor loses when solved for unless the script is doing something very weird, because its ability involves amplifying evil voices at the cost of evil votes (this is going to be a sideline in the extra evils post because "evil voices/evil votes" is a useful set of axises)
Vigorkilled psycho is either "mechconfirm demon type and an outed minion of no social use, lol have fun, also the demon type is 1kpn so you can trivially time kills, also you know most living players are good and have good info" or "hidden psycho, which is a blank token"
Vigorkilled hidden psycho is okay on odd player counts because it's basically vigorkilled assassin
On even player counts it's a blank token because town kills on 4
Vigorkilled assassin is solid but you don't go out of your way for it and "only works half the time" is worse than assassin itself
fresh shard
On even player counts it's a blank token because town kills on 4
Just because psycho is on script you mean?
next marlin
Because of vigorkilled hidden psycho (or even just alive hidden psycho) being a possibility that can't be ruled out, yeah
It's not realistically a world that can be closed
So it's always correct to just treat f4 as f3
fresh shard
Unless town sleeps earlier I guess
foggy grotto
has anyone ever seen Base 1 minion typhon games?
i always see them run at 10-15p games and then people always say typhon sucks
sour harness
I don't think I have actually
foggy grotto
and i’d imagine it would be a lot stronger at 7-9p
ivory ridge
has anyone ever seen Base 1 minion typhon games?
i have
turn out 7 people typhoon game is a choice
sour harness
I've just theorized about boffin mutant lord of typhon mastermind and it's hilarious
sour harness
It doesn't, but then you want smth else to support the mutant in 7-9p
LM works there too lol
gray ridge
droisonspam
fresh shard
Played a Christmas homebrew script which was fun for what it was, but in any other context I would have been very annoyed that there were 10 droison sources
(9 of which were good characters which could only droison other good characters)
zenith lotus
now i want to see the script
rocky idol
show us this abomination
fresh shard
I definitely wouldn't call it an abomination, but it definitely has a few balance issues to be sorted out
Let me see if I can find it
It's a BMR-like but an issue we found in last week's games was that it's really easy for demons to hide the killcount
zenith lotus
there's 4
fresh shard
The gimmick of the script is one player is Santa but one of the minions can Damsel-guess Santa for a win (and this is somewhat balanced by the fact one of the Outsiders is basically Drunk Santa)
So there are a lot of evil wins out of nowhere
fresh shard
(Related: has anyone tested BMR + Acrobat? How did it go?)
sour harness
Sometimes I forget that not everyone has encyclopedic knowledge of this game
rocky idol
(Related: has anyone tested BMR + Acrobat? How did it go?)
mid probably, characters that get info via death don't work on deathmod scripts
sour harness
(Related: has anyone tested BMR + Acrobat? How did it go?)
I haven't tried it but most likely you'd have to sub gambler for acro in order to not tip things too far off center. It seems fun tho!
rocky idol
like imagine gambler on bmr
they have no clue if they died to their ability
it doesn't really work
sour harness
Trrwe
rocky idol
gambler acrobat etc work best on snvlikes obv
ivory ridge
acrobat goon hehe
rocky idol
they could also gamble incorrectly and get saved by an IK or TL
yeah see
sour harness
gambler acrobat etc work best on snvlikes obv
sour harness
acrobat goon hehe
One of acro's best interactions imo
zenith lotus
gambler acrobat etc work best on snvlikes obv
nah, they're reserved for babytalk
and thats it
oh, also gambler is on catfishing
but thats an exception
🤩
because as of recent I've been putting that on everything
sour harness
It doesn't interact with acro I just like it
zenith lotus
oh okay
sour harness
Anyways (no goon sorry) https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1326295589603901510/1326316798663987241/Death_Rose_v1.2-1.png?ex=67824806&is=6780f686&hm=cf32c16cde0ea05848af45dbf029bfd8006aaf022005491c34192a5ec67edfaa&
fast anchor
Clearly you have never needed a bluff from your demon D1
You're just that good at the game to where you never get into doubleclaims as a minion d1 😇
fast anchor
has anyone ever seen Base 1 minion typhon games?
9p typhon is actually super fun
it's a different dynamic compared to 10-15 but it's still neat
gray ridge
bmr script have so many droison source
It works on bmr since 4.5/6 are good sided droison
lost thistle
You're just that good at the game to where you never get into doubleclaims as a ...
being in a double claim isn’t the end of the world though, you can just.,,, back off?
“oh i was actually [role that didn’t want to out] and i lied to people sorry, i told [other minion] my real role they can back me up”
or you do the infinite iq play of just telling one singular other good player a different role so that way if one of your claims is in a double claim you collapse into being the other one
if you regularly lie about your role as town being in a double claim as a minion is trivial to just back out of. you were just lying
fast anchor
being in a double claim isn’t the end of the world though, you can just.,,, back...
sure, but some pivots make more sense than others - if you were claiming courtier and the bluffs are innkeeper/tea lady/huntsman you'll have a harder time excusing that pivot without suspicion
cutting off d1 evil communication can be huge for a good team even if the PG dies night 2 (and all but outs that it's also an Ojo game)
acoustic chasm
Socials matter
Lying as a good player usually has a reason
And a direction
You're a powerful character? You put out you're a Steward so that you seem less powerful.
You're spent? Put out there that you're either the savant or ravenkeeper, and see if evil take the bait on you.
There does come a stage where you do go into double bluffing
So it becomes easier to pull this off without much guidance
But someone who has information and someone who doesn't can leave clues to themselves
next marlin
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't?
barren zenith
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
LoT is a demon that is very fun on a good script, but otherwise, it isn't my favourite character.
dry sluice
does everyone seem to like Fearmonger? even if you patch the self-nom exploit, I think it just changes the nominations process from "X nominates Y" to "X asks a player Z who wasn't pushing on Y to nominate Y"
tacit fiber
that doesn't work
you can make a "pseudo-fearmonger" who just passes the nom to the actual fearmonger for the win
next marlin
I think most people dislike Fearmonger lol
I was thinking of like, Pixie or Cannibal
tacit fiber
also that
barren zenith
I was thinking of like, Pixie or Cannibal
You don't like pixie?!
It's the most fun YSK by a mile imo
next marlin
It's a role that's useful on a script for several reasons but it's also very much a "role designed under the assumption everyone loves madness at all costs" and has a noticeable failure mode if the pixie pushes incredibly hard on their reflection when they saw an ongoing info role
It's not that I dislike it but I don't have the hype for it either
next vault
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Noble
It's information is underwhelming at times and people consider Noble ping as "evil ping" when it's not
tacit fiber
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Ojo: I really don't think its as interesting as people let on
fresh shard
It's a role that's useful on a script for several reasons but it's also very muc...
Failure mode in what sense?
next marlin
Trying very hard to get an ongoing info role executed "so I can get my ability"
Being able to make it hard for an ongoing role to die at night is very strong but it's totally nullified if you try to get them killed in the day
(philo sometimes has a reverse problem where the philo-drunk player wants the philo dead but pixie's nature makes it much more prone to this than philo)
fresh shard
I don't like Cannibal as an ST because it throws up a bunch of cases and having to move existing YSK reminder tokens makes it a bit of a pain to administrate, and I don't like Mutant for how everyone seems to use it on customs in ways that force it to autolose the game if it ever breaks
Oh also I feel like most scripts with Marionette are more interesting without it and very few customs should have Drunk
(I very much like Drunk and Mutant on their home scripts and I suspect I'll feel similarly about the other two in that context)
tacit fiber
Oh also I feel like most scripts with Marionette are more interesting without it...
on customs is for 
and 
, it shouldn't be the most used outsider
next vault
Poisoner is also a character I despise
1 or 2 good snipes is enough to throw good's info off
next marlin
Oh also I feel like most scripts with Marionette are more interesting without it...
I dislike Marionette a lot but it's another frustrating "unfun role that does a unique scripting thing"
Bounty Hunter cluster
next vault
Mario is weird because if you tell a player they are the Mario what are they going to do?
out it? what if they are the actual mario?
next marlin
Being good already sucks because of the "you have no agency and can't coordinate with your team, and you can be right about 95% of the gamestate and still lose" problem, drawing a blue token on a Marionette script means every single one of these things is a thousand times worse to the point of borderline unplayability
next vault
I've won games as Demon by telling good players they are the Mario
next marlin
But it's a unique minion and it's a useful way for people who feel about playing evil how I feel about playing good (which seems a lot more common) to interact with the game
ivory ridge
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
amne
this is
not motivated by anything i swear
next vault
Amne is ST dependant and I hate that, but a good ST should be able to make a guessable ability that is stronger than the average TF
Amne should be strong
next vault
i've had good amne experiences with experienced STs
but I've also had terrible experiences like the time my ability was "you cannot change character" (the only things that could do that were PH and Barber)
and what demon chooses a good player in a barber swap?
next vault
if you're gonna do that it's better to refuse it
next marlin
hang on lemme repost the philo-barber bit
next vault
people forget that you can say no
next marlin
if you're gonna do that it's better to refuse it
The great thing about a barber dying early is you can save it for when it sucks most while getting a townsfolk ability off the board
anyway
ivory ridge
lmao
ivory ridge
it is indeed a valid strat
next vault
I, for exmaple, would never fail into that
next vault
Because I refuse barber
ivory ridge
barber in night order vs instant barber debate
next marlin
Shay being hardsolved in f5:
next marlin
barber in night order vs instant barber debate
It's not a debate, it's literally just instant
ivory ridge
It's not a debate, it's literally just instant
wdym, i thought barber have a night order
dies
next marlin
Yes but it's a reminder and you're not supposed to actually use it
next vault
I dont like swapping good characters with barber because it creates confirmation chains that I very much dislike
next vault
Whenever I play LuF for example, I feel like Amnesiac can often solve their ability and contribute to town
next marlin
I dont like swapping good characters with barber because it creates confirmation...
The conf chains are pretty rough if you swap two random townsfolk (this keeps happening...) or do it after n2 or so, but the value of destroying a townsfolk before they get info in the very early game, while saving the barberswap, is significantly higher than the conf problem in that specific scenario at that particular stage of the game
Which is why d1 barber execution meta is strongly negative utility iff the demon knows what they're doing
ivory ridge
Whenever I play LuF for example, I feel like Amnesiac can often solve their abil...
wdym often 😭
next vault
also, I character that I love but everyone hates is the Pukka, seriously, why do people dislike the Pukka?
next marlin
I think it's overrated
next vault
and 
😡
ivory ridge
i think that as a character, pixie is kinda...unsupported
it's normally pretty obvious that who is the pixie
next marlin
Pixie seeing an ongoing info role is somewhere between a bait role and a safety net, which is cool, but pixie seeing an ongoing info role in a real game has a nasty tendency to be "d1 savant execution, n2 pixie kill"
next vault
Pixie seeing an ongoing info role is somewhere between a bait role and a safety ...
literally this
next marlin
it's normally pretty obvious that who is the pixie
The interesting design thing about pixie is that imo this is intentional
It's not meant to be like evil/outsider madness
ivory ridge
The interesting design thing about pixie is that imo this is intentional
i was about to say that
i think
next marlin
Rather the issue for town it presents is that it's trivially bluffable
ivory ridge
ok so imo
next marlin
So any minion can just randomly jump up and get good players killed
ivory ridge
pixie is like, some sort of 1 person-monk protection
next vault
I remember being Pixie-FT and reaching F3 with my Pixie and the Demon
next marlin
So it's meant to be fairly signalled, unlike evilsided madness
ivory ridge
if you implied it's madness the condition it needs to protect
zenith lotus
Pixie seeing an ongoing info role is somewhere between a bait role and a safety ...
really? i never see that, and the one time i did it was the demon bluffing pixie and they got exed for it
ivory ridge
i
do think pixie shouldn't normally push for their ping to die
because you're supposed to be like, the townsfolk scarlet woman
next marlin
really? i never see that, and the one time i did it was the demon bluffing pixie...
I thought you were going to complain about my marionette take instead 😛
But yeah this is a thing that happens sometimes
It can be a really interesting backup plan
I like that element of it because I want to give 7 days of savant info
next vault
wait
next marlin
Also while pixie and marionette are both individually fairly lame pixie-confirming a marionette is very funny
next vault
you like giving savant info? 😟
barren zenith
I like that element of it because I want to give 7 days of savant info
I don't want to lol
next marlin
(same with a lot of conf tricks on marionettes that I consider a lot less fair to do to drunks)
next marlin
you like giving savant info? 😟
Yes
zenith lotus
you like giving savant info? 😟
you do realize who you're talking to, right?
ivory ridge
i hate it
next marlin
opinion on philo?
I don't use it enough because I don't want every damn game to have a snake charmer in it
barren zenith
if you hate pixie and cannibal
I don't think "hate" was the word
next vault
you do realize who you're talking to, right?
oh... right
ivory ridge
I don't use it enough because I don't want every damn game to have a snake charm...
i was talking in term of "ability duplication at a price" design space
fresh shard
I'm a bit bitter about the LuF game where the Fisherman got advice confirming the Balloonist who then confirmed all five other players
fresh shard
So I was the Leviathan by process of elimination and got exed d2
next marlin
go philo-flowergirl
But then how will I turn evil
next vault
philo-flower (nobody will trust you)
zenith lotus
But then how will I turn evil
pit hag fang gu
next vault
you turn evil by having the flowergirl ability
next marlin
I like philo-snakecharmer because snv tragically lacks politician so I can't go philo-poli
But it's a sometimes food
next vault
seriously I'm gonna make an snv setup that punishes philo-snarmer some day
next marlin
pit hag fang gu
jump me
next marlin
seriously I'm gonna make an snv setup that punishes philo-snarmer some day
I think this is all of them, sensu stricto
zenith lotus
jump me <a:aGunShaking:679570462128209921>
cant, im the real flowergirl that you drunked
fast anchor
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
it does not deserve to be TMSE-tier
next vault
TMSE-tier?
fast anchor
the most script ever
next marlin
The Most Script Ever, a script made by picking the most popular 13/4/4/4 roles on botcscripts
fast anchor
yes, because there is a shabaloth on bad moon rising
ivory ridge
is amnesiac on tmse?
next vault
but like, you cannot slap gossip on any script
fast anchor
why do people put gossips on scripts without multikill demons 😭 it barely works
ivory ridge
noooooo
next marlin
next vault
I've seen Gossip in Leviathan games
ivory ridge
why do people put gossips on scripts without multikill demons 😭 it barely works
i tried stormcaught gossip once with 1 kill demon :sotrue:
i soon abandoned the idea
next vault
VERY SCRIPT!!
next marlin
I remember trying to help you make that script and going "you know I think you might just need a multikill demon"
next marlin
I've seen Gossip in Leviathan games
Rochambeau gaming
fast anchor
I think some 80% of gossips on scripts with 1kpn demons could be replaced with snake charmers and nothing of value would be lost
fast anchor
Rochambeau gaming
tbf rochambeau is rochambeau it kinda works there
ivory ridge
whats rochambeau again
fast anchor
zenith lotus
whats rochambeau again
vig po levi script about demon ambiguity
feral snow
I think some 80% of gossips on scripts with 1kpn demons could be replaced with s...
I so agree with this
Also mizu you need to let me run amnesiac for you
ivory ridge
no
feral snow
I promise I make it not suck total ass
feral snow
You’ve been in an Amne game with me
next vault
I hate how Levi is there just for Pit-Hag potential
feral snow
It was the catfishing one and it was bad because it was catfishing not because of the ability
fast anchor
inb4 squ4ll runs [+4 Snake Charmers] for mizu
ivory ridge
You’ve been in an Amne game with me
yeah and the game immediately got solved cuz the ability is 'you learn how many alive tf are in play'
zenith lotus
all of them suck ass
because they were unguessable or because they were busted?
next vault
But like what game is taking 5 days with that script
ivory ridge
It was the catfishing one and it was bad because it was catfishing not because o...
wait wasn't that the sweetheart one
feral snow
yeah and the game immediately got solved cuz the ability is 'you learn how many ...
And there was like 5 ways of changing that number
next vault
It has many multikills
feral snow
wait wasn't that the sweetheart one
There’s no sweetheart on catfishing
next marlin
yeah and the game immediately got solved cuz the ability is 'you learn how many ...
I remember that reddit post
Was this really the only catfishing game you guys played
next vault
yeah and the game immediately got solved cuz the ability is 'you learn how many ...
LOL
feral snow
The only one in recent times
fast anchor
But like what game is taking 5 days with that script
there used to be a courtier over tf acrobat; if it hit evil's wincon could be "live until d5 and make a levi"
feral snow
Reddit post?
ivory ridge
explain yourself
feral snow
OH!
fast anchor
WHAT
ivory ridge
get it
feral snow
Someone asked for peoples favourite Amne abilities
fast anchor
no way you all use the botc reddit 😭
next vault
botc reddit is 😭
ivory ridge
a fickle (?) man (?)
feral snow
-# thank god I purged my Reddit account two nights ago
zenith lotus
no way you all use the botc reddit 😭
i just use it to set people straight
next marlin
no way you all use the botc reddit 😭
I don't except when squall tells me to post
But I've read his posts
ivory ridge
-# thank god I purged my Reddit account two nights ago
noooooo
next marlin
-# thank god I purged my Reddit account two nights ago
Oh don't worry I remember the actual contents
feral snow
I only really use it to give script feedback, rules clarifications, and subtly push people to just join the discord
feral snow
Oh don't worry I remember the actual contents
No that post is up dw
ivory ridge
wait send it here
next marlin
I'm just finding the screenshot for posterity
feral snow
Just old stuff because that account is 6 years old
ivory ridge
also don't kill me but
next marlin
I'm trying but I have to scroll through 40574057456476957695460 posts of "yagga gossip 
"
ivory ridge
wasn't that game a vigor
ivory ridge
vigor is not on catfishing right?
feral snow
Vigor is on catfishing
next marlin
WHAT THE HELL CATFISHING DO THEY PLAY IN CANADA
feral snow
It was a Vigor game and yeah that’s why the starting number was 8
fast anchor
I just played a vigor/hag game of catfishing
feral snow
I'm trying but I have to scroll through 40574057456476957695460 posts of "yagga ...
I really hate that interaction
ivory ridge
anyway the amne got a day 1 bingo
next marlin
Anyway snv is barely balanced to have 8 townsfolk and catfishing is absolutely not which is why you run vigor gf balloonist
fast anchor
i went philosavant and the ST gave me the entire evil team in d1 info :3
next marlin
i went philosavant and the ST gave me the entire evil team in d1 info :3
Most normal, balanced unprepared-philo-savant info
next marlin
Anyway I'm still trying to find the post but I'm reeling trying to envision what "the version of catfishing in mizu's head" looks like
Roles on Mizufishing: No Dashii, Pixie, Gossip, Boffin, Summoner
Roles not on Mizufishing: Vigormortis
zenith lotus
boffin and summoner???
zenith lotus
mizu catfishing is OLD
next marlin
It's a dark triad script
ivory ridge
honestly i'll actually look up catfishing
next marlin
It's literally the original dark triad script
fast anchor
Most normal, balanced unprepared-philo-savant info
this was starting grim and d1 was "exactly two YSK/OPG abilities have been used this game / exactly 2 evils from [gamber] to [vig] clockwise inclusive"
and then my d2 was basically a wash because of the recluse we executed d1 :)))
barren zenith
I'm trying but I have to scroll through 40574057456476957695460 posts of "yagga ...
Gossip is on 45.59% of yagga scripts; it's the most popular townsfolk on them 😭
ivory ridge
no way
barren zenith
Nearly half
ivory ridge
put an ojo in
next marlin
found the post
fast anchor
🐔 ❓
feral snow
Long story
ivory ridge
ohoho i can finally stalk squall
next marlin
honestly i'll actually look up catfishing
ivory ridge
so it's similar to whata i remember
feral snow
You have my LinkedIn, my house address, and my full legal name what more do you want
next marlin
except for the 14 different roles yes
feral snow
wtf why is sweetheart on here
fast anchor
You have my LinkedIn, my house address, and my full legal name what more do you ...
your lunch money
feral snow
I hate that
ivory ridge
wtf why is sweetheart on here
wdym
the amne game the pit hag was bluffing sweetheart
dies
feral snow
your lunch money
Bold of you to assume I have money
fast anchor
you eat lunch, yes?
ivory ridge
didn't you caved and bought a botc copy for 200 bucks on christmas
next marlin
mood
next marlin
wtf why is sweetheart on here
It's there so they can get executed d1 and claim mutant all game for no reason
fast anchor
anyway what was the question 💀
sour harness
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
I have never seen a game where lleech works
ivory ridge
i've seen a game where lleech work
fast anchor
tbf i recently ran one where it worked out
ivory ridge
turn out you just need to play outed lleech
fast anchor
i don't think most people like lleech though
sour harness
I also just don't think this is how you design a killing trav
sour harness
Sure but it's so unbelievably swingy
feral snow
Is it bad if my answer is like all travellers
fast anchor
like yes sometimes it sits next to the demon
ivory ridge
it's on my list of 'character i've never played with my entire life'
sour harness
Is it bad if my answer is like all travellers
Lol that's valid actually
fast anchor
but like. you signed up for that risk when you put it in the bag
fast anchor
Is it bad if my answer is like all travellers
no this is very valid
sour harness
but like. you signed up for that risk when you put it in the bag
Yeah when I put the demon in the bag exactly
fast anchor
this is the same opinion i hold, i just also hold the opinion that apprentice is not a traveler 
fast anchor
Yeah when I put the demon in the bag exactly
fuck you know what i meant 😭
ivory ridge
^
fast anchor
...we have 16 people and nobody wanted to be the traveler?
ivory ridge
apprentice
sour harness
I've never had that happen tho
If we have more than 15 I've always had people volunteer to travel
sour harness
Skill issue
ivory ridge
just pick better friend /s
zenith lotus
I have never seen a game where lleech works
i've honestly almost never seen a game where lleech doesnt work (except when people put it on scripts with good sided execution survival)
sour harness
Ok why are you putting a gangster in the bag then
sour harness
Gunslinger and gnome both need a player's consent to kill them, butcher needs town's collective consent, and gangster can just run wild and accidentally kill the demon bc it's funny
fast anchor
Ok why are you putting a *gangster* in the bag then
okay, i'll rephrase: if you let your traveler go gangster, you accept the risk the game ends that day because the demon's neighboring them
ivory ridge
i love how sometimes we just
fast anchor
Gunslinger and gnome both need a player's consent to kill them, butcher needs to...
but it IS funny
sour harness
okay, i'll rephrase: if you let your traveler go gangster, you accept the risk t...
Why would I accept that risk when I could simply not
ivory ridge
"can you :wail: or :sotrue: this"
fast anchor
Why would I accept that risk when I could simply not
funi
sour harness
"can you :wail: or :sotrue: this"
Vati, hit em with the :skill_issue:
next marlin
okay, i'll rephrase: if you let your traveler go gangster, you accept the risk t...
You can also just make the gangster evil
tacit fiber
Ok why are you putting a *gangster* in the bag then
mfw I put Gangster in the bag
fast anchor
sour harness
I'll put the gangster in the same game as the cere goblin jinx then
ivory ridge
You can also just make the gangster evil
chef 3 incident
next marlin
The delirious drunk:
ivory ridge
drunk aren't real
just like amnesiac
i swear one day amne won't be an townsider
maybe i'm being too harsh
tacit fiber
amazing
fast anchor
how's everyone's amne experience?
pretty good, actually
sour harness
I keep making OP amnes but besides that it's great
fast anchor
a decent number of the amnes i run get guessed, a decent number of the amnes in games i play are useful
next marlin
"can you :wail: or :sotrue: this"
Love watching botccord steadily outsource both its script opinions and emotional responses to me
fast anchor
some of them are bad but like that's just how it goes sometimes
tacit fiber
same with 
and 
tacit fiber
oh time to test the new function
:(
tacit fiber
Id assume its like blocking but the person doesn't know
ivory ridge
barren zenith
how's everyone's amne experience?
As long as they aren't OP, especially in longtext as the amne has a ton of time to guess
Can someone give me amne ideas btw?
ivory ridge
longtext aren't real, i fear
barren zenith
I've run out
ivory ridge
isn't there like, an amne doc
tacit fiber
Can someone give me amne ideas btw?
The demon chooses two players each night. You learn them and choose one. The demon attacks them.
next marlin
Can someone give me amne ideas btw?
here's the kurowall of text
feral snow
I’ve heard of a lot of horror stories of our group just making genuinely awful abilities
lean isle
I've seen some interesting abilities
ivory ridge
we don't run amne that often
feral snow
This was before your time but it was our group
feral snow
we don't run amne that often
Because we have like no ST’s capable of running it well
lean isle
Some are good, some are too chaotic or questionable.
ivory ridge
Because we have like no ST’s capable of running it well
you just need to believe in me
ivory ridge
but yeah, right now, for me amne is more often that not, an townsider 😔
obviously more town then sider
feral snow
I’m so sad you missed the Po game with the really good Amne ability I ran
barren zenith
Droison-related amnesiacs are horrible
ivory ridge
tbf most people bootleg that amne guess are healthy and sober
barren zenith
If it droisons a TF, that is
feral snow
There was one in a text game in our group that was “Each night, choose a player: their ability yields false info tonight” or similar
Which was great
Until they were Mez turned
And then it was basically two poisoners in play
ivory ridge
based
next marlin
Townsfolkiest amne
next marlin
I think another of the kurowalls is about that
ivory ridge
send
next marlin
Honestly the most recent amne I've played with was #time-isnt-real so I'm not well qualified to opine here
next marlin
send
[gestures] somewhere
Just ask them about amne they'll say something
oh yeah here
tardy wyvern
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Not sure how much of a hot take this is, but I really really hate Cult Leader and it’s probably my least favorite currently released character
next marlin
Most people dislike cl afaict
tacit fiber
oh it's just kinda too strong
u are right, 
in customs is too stronk if not built around
ivory ridge
but yeah i kinda dislike the unjumped outsider prepping themselves to be jumped too
next marlin
I like Fang Gu in the abstract but I dislike the play pattern of "let town solve the game but pull an evils-rise-up endgame" that a lot of people fall into due to using it as a crutch and not knowing how to play actively
ivory ridge
wdym
next marlin
It's a demon that incentivizes lazy habits because it's strong enough to win while coasting
(not always, but sometimes)
ivory ridge
oh yeah
it can be encouraging discouraging sometimes
me when we solve but the fang gu jump and now it's just like, oh ok
idk i think fang gu is socially feels bad
the same way poli is
next marlin
Not that so much as the strength of it being particularly high on the voice-vote powers of extra evils
I really like the jump dynamic but I dislike that a town that plays extremely well against an evil team that's more or less outing can still lose in f3 because lol votes
This is only a minority of fg games but it sure is some of them
tacit fiber
yeah
I have had one where evil survived a solved sage death because of the evil theif fucking up the votes
and we ended up winning by a hair
next marlin
Putting an evil thief in a setup with extra-evils-who-know-the-demon sure is something you're technically allowed to do
tacit fiber
it wasn't setup
it was midgame and there were 3 other good travelers already
they traveled out tho
barren zenith
fang gu
It's actually not that powerful on Final Nail as the outsiders don't have too high of a penalty for dying and there's only PM as misinfo in Fang Gu.
On some customs, it's horrible tho
As it just isn't solvable
next marlin
One interesting detail I notice about Fang Gu is people intuiting it as weakest at base 0/strongest at base 2
Which is objectively, numerically, the opposite of the truth
But it requires the most cautious play at base 0
ivory ridge
It's actually not that powerful on Final Nail as the outsiders don't have too hi...
good thing fang gu isn't that popular in custom
tacit fiber
I feel it is? idk
ivory ridge
it is
next marlin
-# mizu is being sarcastic
tacit fiber
oh
sour harness
But it *requires the most cautious play* at base 0
i.e. Skill Issue™️
next marlin
Exactly
tacit fiber
I love tone indicators >_<
ivory ridge
it is the first or second most popular demon
next marlin
Well, sometimes "the outsider outed d1" issue
ivory ridge
imp vs fang gu
sour harness
And then you add vigor for the dark triad
next marlin
But it's an interesting display of the Skill Issue Problem amongst the snv demons
feral snow
imp vs fang gu
Imp is first by a landslide
next marlin
And then you add vigor for the dark triad
not coincidentally, #3
ivory ridge
barren zenith
One interesting detail I notice about Fang Gu is people intuiting it as weakest ...
Why is that not the case?
sour harness
But it's an interesting display of the Skill Issue Problem amongst the snv demon...
All the SnV demons are just skill issues
tacit fiber
SnV on top
feral snow
I don’t like that the top 5 are literally just TB SnV
dry sluice
why is fang gu weakest at base 2?
I get that at base 0, the outsider is probably playing for evil. But it also seems most likely to solve for fang gu and least likely for the fang gu to get to jump
next marlin
Why is that not the case?
tacit fiber
FIV on top on top
tacit fiber
I don’t like that the top 5 are literally just TB SnV
the experimentals insist upon themself
sour harness
You know how the BMR demon wiki pages all day "[demon] is the strongest demon"? The same could be said about SnV demons, honestly even moreso
(fang gu is the strongest of the strongest demons, but still)
next marlin
My favourite thing about the snv demon wiki articles is that the Vortox one straight up admits it's the weakest
tacit fiber
eyo lemme see
sour harness
Lol
next marlin
tacit fiber
if the good team know you're in play with any degree of certainty, then they can start to unravel the falsehoods caused by your ability and will have your evil team packing in no time!
next marlin
sour harness
tacit fiber
hold shit ur right
sour harness
Oh lol
sour harness
Also the last bit is just categorically not true
next marlin
It's a bit wrong but you see what they're trying to express to people who just read the vortox ability and went "holy shit"
next marlin
But yeah "the Vortox will probably provide a less steep challenge than the other Demons on the character sheet" is 1. certainly one way of putting it 2. absolutely hilarious to admit in the wiki guide
ivory ridge
don't panic is insanely funny
sour harness
Idk, vortox's script presence is more powerful than its strength when it's in play. Oh wait that's all of them
next marlin
I would argue this is way less true of the nonvortoxen
sour harness
Vigor???
next marlin
Half of what makes vigor deceptively strong is that town forgets to worldbuild vigor
(especially when there are enough outsider claims)
sour harness
Yeah exactly
next marlin
Vigor does pretty often have this problem but it has a very different set of problems to Vortox overall
ivory ridge
To be fair
next marlin
Vortox is inherently extreme in "scriptwarping but weak"
sour harness
Skill Issue
next marlin
Eh that particular scenario is usually a bag issue
(which is a skill issue but not for the players)
ivory ridge
well turn out the vigor killed cere pithag cannot help vigor with getting voted out
l
especially if they’re claiming outsider
next marlin
Just exploit the social trust of being nightkilled 
tacit fiber
especially if they’re claiming outsider
mfw the vigor killed 
cere 
pithag claims 
klutz and picks the vigor
next marlin
You only need your minions alive if they have to panic and get you off the block
If people are passing their accusations to your dead minion, you're golden
ivory ridge
mfw the <:vigormortis:586693973569961994> vigor killed <:cerenovus:5866939699504...
Yeah that’s never working
Like
Ever
tacit fiber
I've won that way?
ivory ridge
Huh?
next marlin
Klutz is so funny because when it's in play it just entirely sucks and its script presence is 100% "vigor minion bluff"
ivory ridge
wait
how does a klutz pick get to f3
and not get voted out
did everyone tunnel on vortox
next marlin
how does a klutz pick get to f3
that's when you introduce the 5D chess step of having the vigorkilled minion klutzpick the seamstress with a yes on the two of you
ivory ridge
that make more sense
fast anchor
that's when you introduce the 5D chess step of having the vigorkilled minion klu...
and then you kill the bone collector in the night
sour harness
that's when you introduce the 5D chess step of having the vigorkilled minion klu...
I carried that game trust
rocky idol
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Ojo
I've tried and tried and I cannot see the light
feral snow
Actually I have another one
Goblin
Maybe it’s a group issue but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a goblin win or a goblin claim actually work as a bluff
tardy wyvern
I’ve had a goblin win but it was mainly out of fatigue I think
next marlin
You know how the BMR demon wiki pages all day "[demon] is the strongest demon"? ...
The renegade Fang Gu is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its perfidy and escape artistry. The No Dashii might convince good players to spread evil's information, the Vigormortis might let its minions abuse the trust granted to the dead, and the Vortox might send everyone into a spin, but none of them can do what you can -- expand your evil empire while dodging accusations in the process. You have a built-in safety net that converts a former good player to your team, more than balancing the overload of information town has to hunt you down with. The good team should panic at the mere thought you are in play, potentially turning any of their compatriots to your side at any time while making all their information pinpoining you outdated.
The devious Vigormortis is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its underhandedness and strategy. The Fang Gu might be able to jump out of trouble, but you can avoid getting in trouble at all. The No Dashii and Vortox can both be traced to their misinformation, but your misinformation is far more subtle -- players poisoned beside one of your "trusted" minions have to contend with these other explanations, especially if your minion is exploiting the complex and massive bluffspace available to you! The good team should desperately hope you're not the Demon they're facing, or else no confirmation is ever trustworthy, none of the terrifying Minion abilities on the script can be counterplayed, and the information from that "dead good Dreamer" might not be worth anything at all.
The fearsome No Dashii is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its duplicity and consistency. The Fang Gu and Vigormortis can only manipulate so much information, and the Vortox affects all too much. As the No Dashii, you know your neighbours have been transformed into puppets for your dastardly deeds. The townsfolk on Sects & Violets are powerful enough to solve games on their own, and you take two of them out from day 1 -- something no other demon on the script can achieve! The good team should pray you aren't the in-play Demon, or that perfect piece of knowledge that solves the game might not be what it seems at all.
The Vortox is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its uhh uhhhh uhhhhhhhh
indigo osprey
The same is true for BMR demons
next marlin
It's a reference to the BMR demon bit, yes
indigo osprey
but we all know it's only true for Imp: they are the deadliest demon on Trouble Brewing
feral snow
I hope they do that bit again for the expansions
||The Al-Hadikhia is the deadliest Demon on the Tomb for its ability to strike terror into the hearts of all who hear it||
indigo osprey
The Psychopath is the deadliest minion
the vizier is the deadliest minion
the Harpy is the deadliest minion
feral snow
The Boomdandy is the deadliest Minion ||on the Tomb|| for the chaos it creates.
karmic slate
The Imp is the deadliest demon in Trouble Brewing because of it's sole presence on the script! With no other Demons, the title has to be given to it!
indigo osprey
The goblin is the most peaceful of minions$
hollow oasis
“It won’t bite”
gray ridge
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Seamstress/Artist
I find them to be more boring than YSK for some reason
tacit fiber
> The renegade Fang Gu is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its perfidy...
The Vortox is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its incidious nature. If good doesn't figure out you are in play, they are in for a ride for unsolvable mess!
hollow oasis
The Vortox is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its incidious nature. I...
SNV should be most confusing
fast anchor
The Boomdandy is the deadliest Minion ||on the Tomb|| for the chaos it creates.
The ||Daughter of Nox|| is the deadliest Minion on Garden of Sin due to ||its quiet, yet powerful ability to warp all information. Unlike the Vortox from the Sects & Violets edition, the toggle built into its ability serves as a useful way to push many different worlds and drown the good team in possibilities of misinformation.||
i couldn't make the queer joke funny :(
feral snow
I almost did that one
fast anchor
The ||Daughter of Nox|| is the deadliest Minion on Garden of Sin due to ||Her immense level of gayness. While other Minions might simply poison or kill the good team, the Daughter of Nox steals your boyfriend, makes her into Her own girlfriend, and adds her to the ever-growing transgender polycule to help the Demon wipe out the town.||
i tried anyway
hollow oasis
What in the ||Mormon||(remember that character)
next marlin
The Vortox is the deadliest demon in Sects & Violets for its incidious nature. I...
I love how vortox always has to be "in the 10% of games where you can't solve for it, it's crazy strong"
ivory ridge
The ||Skinkulus|| is the deadliest Minion on Sects and Violets due to ||its ability to clock potential eggs. While other Demon are focusing on killing people, Skinkulus focus to create a safe single-gender place, whether it's alpha bro podcasts or multi level marketing schemes. It is advised for good player to transition mid game to best counter this Demon.||
next marlin
...somehow town keeps winning those games 😭
fast anchor
...somehow town keeps winning those games 😭
sentence town to 8p Vortox sweetheart games until they stop solving for Vortox 
sour harness
The Boomdandy is the deadliest Minion ||on the Tomb|| for the chaos it creates.
See this placement makes sense but I'm trying to wrap my head around the script all at once and it's not quite working
It felt like 2 disjoint scripts lol
fast anchor
we know the least about that script compared to the other ones, so it tracks
vs 
||
feral snow
||<:cannibal:799483052866273310> <:pixie:801935072655704104> <:boomdandy:8066811...
Yeah somehow some of these go together
I have some ideas but so much just doesn’t work atm
sour harness
The minions combining is craziest to me
feral snow
Oh yeah it’s gonna be insane and I love it
hollow oasis
||<:cannibal:799483052866273310> <:pixie:801935072655704104> <:boomdandy:8066811...
That works perfectly
sour harness
Me when minion volume
feral snow
Shhhh
sour harness
(I can't post the blog post bc it doesn't exist yet. But if I could I would)
hollow oasis
Me when minion volume
(Look they can choose to not do anything)
sour harness
Me when botc is a race between good & evil
hollow oasis
||Hatter TT isn’t unheard of||
feral snow
Yeah that’s kind of what the tomb is
sour harness
||Hatter TT isn’t unheard of||
Oh I love that actually
hollow oasis
Me when botc is a race between good & evil
I meant a psycho being quiet ||Organ Grinder drunking self||
sour harness
Yeah that’s kind of what the tomb is
I mean it's true of all of botc fundamentally. But yeah it seems even more true there
hollow oasis
Should we move to speculation and spoilers
sour harness
Y'all should, have fun without me lol
hollow oasis
But why notttt
sour harness
I would like to not know everything
I wanna see the refined version of it as my first impression
hollow oasis
Fine, fair
hollow oasis
I would like to not know everything
Do you think engineer is TT?
next marlin
I wanna see the refined version of it as my first impression
I'm sure you'll enjoy it in 10 years
hollow oasis
I'm sure you'll enjoy it in 10 years
They said they’d release it at the end of this year :(
next marlin
They did not say that
hollow oasis
They said “late 2025”
dense hound
source?
next marlin
But also this is specspoilers and also I don't want to have this conversation in specspoilers, I want you to answer today's question
feral snow
That’s uh, not TPI
hollow oasis
It’s guessing time
hollow oasis
That’s uh, not TPI
But have you considered that I made it up and found a random source
To back it up
feral snow
Ah yes of course
hollow oasis
I saw it in a dream
And now looking at it
Honestly it just looked like community consensus for some reason
shrug
shrewd cloud
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Cerenovus for me personally, though I don’t hate it. And since a lot of people in this specific server like it, I’ll also mention Pacifist. Obviously a big part of it is bad STing, but I feel like if a character is this widely poorly run, then it has serious design issues
shrewd cloud
Now that’s a date I trust
hollow oasis
You know what, fair point
ivory ridge
Do people like Poisoner
hollow oasis
It seems to be on every fucking custom ever
next marlin
Yes, disliking Poisoner is mostly a thing in exactly custscripts
pseudo fulcrum
I like poisoner
next marlin
Because we have a high density of people who dislike Poisoner and also because I'm really loud
ivory ridge
I like poisoner
So real
shrewd cloud
I’m fine with it but I do agree it’s put on too many customs. It’s perceived as the generic droison character, but it does need to be tempered by the script design
ivory ridge
You are
Vat is like the Fearmonger
But instead of the announcement is just wall of text
next marlin
I say things and they become true, it's a thing
next marlin
Slowly watching as botccord acquires all my opinions and also becomes emotionally reliant on my emojis
hollow oasis
But no one wants to make TB 2
ivory ridge
Which also make me wonder
hollow oasis
so alas, they make SNV but bad
ivory ridge
How does Poisoner Xaan like, work
hollow oasis
It’s the circle of life
hollow oasis
How does Poisoner Xaan like, work
Diagonal+Horizontal droison
ivory ridge
You counter poisoner by giving it less window where people can be poison right?
feral snow
so alas, they make SNV but bad
🐈🐟
hollow oasis
You counter poisoner by giving it less window where people can be poison right?
You counter poisoner by making it solo Vortox
next marlin
You counter poisoner by giving it less window where people can be poison right?
That and by having some way to directly detect a poisoner is in play (invest is the only consistent one; undertaker, dreamer, ravenkeeper help)
ivory ridge
But yeah, instead of criticizing poisoner, maybe we should learn how build around poisoner instead 🔥
I think poisoner is overhated here 😔
hollow oasis
But yeah, instead of criticizing poisoner, maybe we should learn how build aroun...
That’s just TB
and I hate TB with a burning passion
So alas
I refuse
next marlin
I think poisoner is overhated here 😔
It's because my opinions got picked up by a bunch of less subtle people, it's literally just that
I'm cerelocking people and they're pushing too hard
hollow oasis
I will not put poisoner on my script ever
feral snow
I like poisoner for its simplicity but it’s just too much a lot of the time
ivory ridge
Poisoner is hard to build around, but so is Pit Hag and Mastermi- actually no Mastermind just kinda suck
Anyway
hollow oasis
Poisoner is hard to build around, but so is Pit Hag and Mastermi- actually no Ma...
Ok Mastermind indeed just sucks
ivory ridge
The Yagga word is double tap, good luck
gray ridge
But yeah, instead of criticizing poisoner, maybe we should learn how build aroun...
Billions must play a script with drunk puzzlemaster poisoner widow no dashii lleech pukka
hollow oasis
i'ts like pacifist
no it’s not
ivory ridge
No way an STlivetext
next marlin
Billions must play a script with drunk puzzlemaster poisoner widow no dashii lle...
This is balanced because you can barista sober the puzzlemaster
rocky idol
No way an STlivetext
indeed
shrewd cloud
Billions must play a script with drunk puzzlemaster poisoner widow no dashii lle...
Almost as classic as the fabled custom trio of
Vigor
Imp
Fang Gu
angelic music plays
Seriously though this trio is everywhere on customs
hollow oasis
MM, like most BMR minions
next marlin
Almost as classic as the fabled custom trio of
Vigor
Imp
Fang Gu
*angelic musi...
Dark Triad 🔥
gray ridge
Mastermind sucks harder than the others
next marlin
honestly bmr's minions mostly aren't what doesn't export
feral snow
Almost as classic as the fabled custom trio of
Vigor
Imp
Fang Gu
*angelic musi...
Oh we’re not supposed to do that?
hollow oasis
Vat I said most not all
I’ll stand by these 2 sucking
feral snow
/j
next marlin
yes godfather is a bit overused but custscripts exaggerates this
assassin is harder to export but still viable
hollow oasis
yes godfather is a bit overused but custscripts exaggerates this
Ehhhhh
Godfather isn’t used at all
feral snow
I think when it’s used it’s used worse than Assassin
next marlin
mastermind is an outlier because it's way closer to the bmr core
gray ridge
Its very used as an outsider mod
shrewd cloud
Oh we’re not supposed to do that?
It’s a mostly fine trio it just appears so much
And there’s also way too many customs that do not account for Vigor at all and have stuff like Baron and Scarlet Woman. Which makes the Vigor cry in the corner
feral snow
Its very used as an outsider mod
Because everyone forgets it also kills
hollow oasis
Although godfather unjinxed with heretic on Levi is funny
gray ridge
Yes
next marlin
I think when it’s used it’s used worse than Assassin
"You start knowing what Outsiders are in play" isn't and can't be reproduced by a different outsider mod role and is the more important element of the role on most scripts
But also it's possible to put gf in with lower death mod than bmr while letting it kill people if you're just kind of careful with it
gf needs a ton of cover on bmr because it's the only outsider mod
next marlin
if its presence is less confirming it doesn't need the same amount of cover (but it still needs it unless you're doing something weird)
hollow oasis
My solution is Kazali Widow
next marlin
I hate catfishing and catfishing likes
- squall issue 2. there are intermediate points
like, ojo is the role I think about here
the basically "yagga jr" thing makes it a really good pair with gf, especially because ojo/evil info is interesting but ojo/spidow is a tad awkward
hollow oasis
I like ojo gambling
“Pick a demonsbane? Double(or triple) kills
“Pick a Strong TF? Bad kill or demonsbane
sour harness
Do you think engineer is TT?
I sincerely hope it's GSoE 🙃
feral snow
Based answer
gray ridge
W
hollow oasis
I sincerely hope it's GSoE 🙃
Alright
sour harness
Engineer's home script is quadjank
Tbh
Engineer kinda does go hard on teensies
Where there's not that much for it to affect
Still needs to be built for it
hollow oasis
Engineer should only be able to pick demon type and I will die on this hill
sour harness
Maybe my perception is warped but I feel like engineer alch and boffin go hand in hand in hand
sour harness
Engineer should only be able to pick demon type and I will die on this hill
I don't hate that
ivory ridge
hmmm
i don't know which minion fit both imp and fang gu though
i can see godfather and widow
zenith lotus
what about cere and pithag? 😉
gusty bear
probably too loud for imp
ivory ridge
yeah half way through thinking this I realized
Its just catfishing
why cere and pithag actually
zenith lotus
general shenanigans
cere is good for vig, pithag is good for fang gu and okay for imp
ivory ridge
ah
divide and conquer typa shit
I was legit thinking
“pit hag cuz you can pit hag vig into a better demon”
zenith lotus
if we want to talk other synergies, widow is okay with vig, and really good with imp and fang gu. GF is good with vig and fang gu, and pretty good with imp
zenith lotus
“pit hag cuz you can pit hag vig into a better demon”
i mean, pithag vig can be funny if you pithag people into minions and then vigor kill them. the problem with this on catfishing is that two of the minions are widow and GF
hollow oasis
Vizier y’all
foggy grotto
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Mezepheles
i don’t hate it but it’s crazy strong on certain customs in a way people don’t realize
also i like it better as a role where you have to trick someone into saying the word, but the amount of people who will just say a mez word kinda takes the fun out of it
like why would a mez go to the trouble of tricking someone to say a word when they can just get any five people they want to turn evil voluntarily
Also it often just leads to people turning their friends in big games which can be fun I guess but also kind of disheartening for people on the outside
coarse fern
[time isn't real]: What's a character that everyone seems to like, but you don't...
Ojo
sour harness
So much ojo hate :(