secret thing

[acoustic chasm]

mmm

[hollow oasis]

that's because soldier is barely a TF lol

[acoustic chasm]

Drunk Soldier on the other hand

Now that's a townsfolk

:P

[hollow oasis]

On TB

everyone blames the monk

[acoustic chasm]

But ye Soldier is pretty cool

Soldier and Ravenkeeper are usually weaker than their counterparts

[hollow oasis]

ravenskeeper is much better than soldier

however

(normally)

(there are indeed circumstances where soldier is better)

case in point nodashii

pukka

vigormortis

[sour harness]

Oh that's really cool actually

[sour harness]

You understand that this makes it more of a townsfolk right

[hollow oasis]

and they also just get framed

every

damn

time

[sour harness]

Because then after the monk is dead the demon can try to kill you again

[acoustic chasm]

Trouble Brewing
High Represented - Scarlet Woman, Recluse (if there is an Investigator in play)
Low Represented - Soldier I guess tbh.

Sects and Violets
High - Snake Charmer, Savant
Low - Oracle (Common bluff), Evil Twin

Bad Moon Rising
High - Goon, Pacifist actually see it a weird amount..., Po
Low - Mastermind, Minstrel

[sour harness]

Well yeah spy is on script

[hollow oasis]

( i don't mean the demon blaming the monk, i mean town)

[sour harness]

Yeah

[young sonnet]

I feel RK is actually pretty strong?

Like I've seen unbluffable RK break some scripts open

(yes it's always bluffable cause you can confirm an evil player, but you know what I mean)

[gray ridge]

Soldier being underutilized is good because its boring asf

[hollow oasis]

soldier really isn't.... fun

i'd rather be a butler

[indigo osprey]

Soldier is just the sad nephew of the mighty ravenkeeper

[hollow oasis]

or a bloody zealot

[gray ridge]

Ability reads "you will be the frame"

[indigo osprey]

'the best thing you can do is confirm an undertaker'

[acoustic chasm]

soldiers pulling off some monk bluff shenanagins on other players is definitely its highlight

[gray ridge]

Samw

Id rather be the saint

At least its an outsider

So its more understandable they would be the frame

[acoustic chasm]

a lot of that is outside the soldier's control

tho

[gray ridge]

And you can also die during the night

[acoustic chasm]

I do like TB, and I think its very interesting for script makers

Having only 2 characters which prevent deaths at night (soldier+monk) being enough

[sour harness]

What is it with the TB slander lol

[acoustic chasm]

the confirmability of the virgin

[sour harness]

First butler now soldier

[acoustic chasm]

lIKE

[gray ridge]

TB is cool

Soldier isnt

[sour harness]

(meanwhile NOBODY talks about baron's problems)

Soldier is a reusable bait role

People say it's boring because they don't bother trying to reuse it

[acoustic chasm]

TB would be not considered a good script ifit was a custom

[acoustic chasm]

I don't think that's true

[gray ridge]

Its boring because ppl will just believe the monk anyway

[sour harness]

It's partly true

[acoustic chasm]

Bait is difficult to pull off

[zenith lotus]

poisoner makes everything unsolvable! spy with RK and soldier? scoffs

[acoustic chasm]

Definitely possible to pull off, but difficult

Ye

I do think TB is the best script for roleswaps

And that roleswaps should happen often on it

yes, there is a spy

[gray ridge]

And I would rather have a guaranteed upside like RK Banshee etc than living on the dark if the demon sunk, targeted me or targeted the monk protected player

And eventually being tunelled on as evil

[indigo osprey]

Trouble brewing sucks ass with saint, soldier and ravenkeeper who are all nullified by the spy

[acoustic chasm]

But the demon killing well in a bluffy town turns into a tell

Like, a game where I was the Librarian pretending to be an Undertaker

[sour harness]

Demons don't have a reason to sink on TB other than backing a bluff

[acoustic chasm]

And N3 the real undertaker diesd

And not me

It sure does feel like a spy game then

[acoustic chasm]

that's true, unless the demons want to sell its not a spy game so kills those roles intentionally anyway

like i've seen been done

[indigo osprey]

one of my best games as a minion (scarlet woman) in a spyless game is when we managed to kill the empath N2 and the fortune teller N3 and everyone was convinced it was a spy game

I managed to social read both of them out: I was quite proud

I was obviously the investigator who saw the saint as poisoner and was advocating my death all game, until final 3 (when I became the demon after advocating for their death 'because they were a demon candidate' in final 5)

good times

[next marlin]

I once played a strings pulling game where town hard unambiguously solved spy based on a n2 kill of the monk roleswapping with the chef (followed by several more kills into info over socials) and everyone immediately outed everything and did the most hardcore spy counterplay I've ever seen and rolled the evil team...it was pois/scarlet/mario

There were like 5 spectators who agreed not to get grim access and were all solving the game from town square discussions alone and they also all unambiguously solved spy

[fresh shard]

Shabaloth and Vigormortis feel underused to me, to the point that I genuinely don't think I've ever played in a game with either demon

[hollow oasis]

I agree with shab

But vigor has some notorious shenanigans

@next marlin could tell you about my vigor game

[sly crescent]

ye Vigor's seen often enough in my experience. some have strong views about how -1 outsider is horrible and they don't want to "burden" the evil team with that ability, but it's not as bad as anti-Shab bias (oh no i will have to regurg and confirm a good player not doing that to my precious evil team)

[indigo osprey]

a regurgitated character can just... be killed again by the demon :p

[sly crescent]

confirmed player can be but usually is not a f3 problem, it's a theoretical information problem. any info that involved a confirmed player is more credible. dreamer saw demon as x/demon and mutant as mutant/y and mutant exploded - sad game

not gonna sit here and think of better examples but even ysk like chef, clock or shugenja recalibrating for someone being confirmed not evil can be a problem, and BMR has custom info in Gossip, all potential headaches that storytellers might have had and now they don't want anything like that

[austere steppe]

I've got a tonne of games under my belt. Single digit vig and shab games for sure.

[zenith lotus]

11/15: Let's get some #game-highlights in here 😉 . What happened in your first game of BotC?

[sour harness]

I was the bureaucrat and my roommate was the thief. We did the funny

[next marlin]

First game ever: I was one of two evil travellers in a 7p+2trav tb, wasn't told who my demon was, town square vibed the whole game, and accidentally negvoted my demon because the evil world was too convincing
First resident game: I was the recluse who I think barely misregistered (I wasn't in the invest ping!), netted decent social trust, lived all game, and in f3 the demon broke down and went "why is there a recluse in f3?!" Me: "Because you didn't kill me because 'you wanted to gun for info roles', and town didn't kill me because I'm good." We won

[barren zenith]

I was the baron, I didn't do much, I lost

[lean isle]

First game: good old TB, pulled Imp, some major mistake happened, unfortunate sub out.

Second game: Fool (yes, BMR), where good team got tricked by some insane evil bluffs.

[supple dirge]

I played at a con. Tb. I pulled the demon, had an evil traveller helping me out a bit. Thought I was doing alright bluffing slayer till people thought it was suspicious I hadn't used my shot yet. Wasn't sure if I could bluff that and shot that day, then was killed and lost. Should have star passed to the very trusted minion bluffing empath

[agile sigil]

First game ever: Drew Imp, did the standard "pretend to be FT while actually being the Soldier" play, got the trust of one of the best players there. Got lucky with RK hitting Virgin, hitting Monk N2 with a public Empath (before killing Empath), left Virgin alive to F4 then killed them leaving a 3 Evil win

[zenith lotus]

why is it always the new players drawing imp 😭

[sour harness]

The tokens are cursed, don't you know?

[next marlin]

Clearly recluse misregistered as imp for me

[lean isle]

No idea.
I was the Demon in 3 out of 6 my first games.

[next marlin]

I am disproportionately good and ~only minion if evil

I have been the demon exactly once but ofc I was a new player at the time

...it was a whalebucket game with an ST who never gave bluffs in whalebucket because "if you're in a double claim in whalebucket you deserve to lose"

(I proceeded to kazali-pick the only outsider on a grim that was like, lycan flowergirl exorcist)

[zenith lotus]

😭 it took me 26 games to get demon

[fast anchor]

7p game of TB, I was the Empath who was poison locked all game

[sour harness]

I've had a player who pulled imp SW pukka. In game 3 we gaslit her into thinking she was the lunatic

[tardy wyvern]

specifically on this server, I was the demon all 4 of my first 4 games here

my first game on this server was a 10 day BMR where I was the zombuul that was exorcised three times on nights where i could have gotten kills. I lost

my first game in general was TB and I was the soldier which was good bc I didnt really have to do anything

[indigo osprey]

I was the washerwoman who confirmed the fortune teller; we won

[young sonnet]

12 player game, I was the Baron.
I accidentally got into an RK double claim after my Demon panic star passed to me a night early for some reason (people weren't that suspicious of him yet) and my roommate slayer shot me to figure out if I should be executed or not. It was very fun, but I really feel like we could've won if he just waited a day like I suggested

(evil team was baron poisoner)

[agile sigil]

I see nothing wrong with that!

[tacit fiber]

2016: I draw

Completely misunderstand how Clocktower works, tell the drunk that they are the drunk, “confirm” the mayor and still get down to final 3 with my friend who was the imp, we ended up losing but I loved the game

[supple dirge]

Wow, where were you playing all the way back in 2016?

[foggy grotto]

i was the witch, panicked when my demon was on the block, d1 rerack

[young sonnet]

Homie played SnV first game?

[foggy grotto]

nah customs

[dense hound]

I think my first game I was the imp 💀

[foggy grotto]

i’ve been running clocktower for a lot longer than i’ve played it

[dense hound]

I did an empath bluff (classic) and this guy clocked me like day 2 but I managed to fillibuster until final 3 with us both alive and got him executed

[young sonnet]

Ohhhhh

That's crazy

But valid

[pseudo fulcrum]

I was a drunk empath in my first game

we got a mayor win

actually i was the drunk in 3 out of my first 4 games

[young sonnet]

Token integrity my dick and balls

[pseudo fulcrum]

STs hate me, they always wanna make me drunk /j

[sour harness]

I have a friend who pulled drunk soldier in his first 2 games. He no longer likes the game :(

[dense hound]

new players are always drunk or the demon

[pseudo fulcrum]

Drunk is literally my most common character

[young sonnet]

ST should be court-martialled

[minor pier]

15 players, base 2 Outsiders, Stormcaught Plague Doctor script. I draw Alchemist, am told Baron. No one claims Plague Doctor. I push on my neighbors heavily cause the only explanation on script is No Dashii, D3 win easy.
Moral of the story : if a character is storm-caught and not in play, evil should bluff it, almost always.

[sly crescent]

i was the Baron, convinced the Damsel to hard claim. got executed because evil Bounty Hunter (self-turned) for whatever reason decided to give out their real ping, right till the end i was scared of being roped in by fake damsel to reveal/confirm my minion status, but we eventually won by guessing correctly

[indigo osprey]

Your first game had damsel and self turned bounty? auwtsj. (ST's really should do self turned BH.)

[flat lintel]

I was the Lleech host.

Still won though.

or maybe not

i actually cant remember

[acoustic chasm]

I lost TB because we thought the drunk can register as in play Townsfolk

[sly crescent]

text games here are wild 😄

[acoustic chasm]

Is it a crazy hot-take that the most impactful character on Trouble Brewing is the Spy?

[sour harness]

I mean, what does impactful mean

Because like, it's the imp, but you could very reasonably just not count that

[acoustic chasm]

I mean that if Spy was replaced by a non grim peaker, it would have the largest change of strategy I think

[hollow oasis]

Good would lose more

[acoustic chasm]

But you could say similar for imp+starpassing

[hollow oasis]

lol

[acoustic chasm]

IMO TB encourages roleswaps a lot

Without a Spy, people would be far more comfortable to bluff for longer and those types of plays become more common

[hollow oasis]

TB everyone outs because spy is OP

which it is in normal games

[indigo osprey]

I think this is correct

the hard confirmation (washerwoman, librarian) only somewhat work due to the possibility it's a spy game

if that was impossible

washerwoman and librarian go real hard real fast

[minor pier]

Add Undertaker to that list

[fast anchor]

17/11: What's a character interaction that you think is cool, but haven't seen on many (if any) scripts?

[indigo osprey]

For some reason: Dreamer/Spy is something I haven't seen a lot yet.

[acoustic chasm]

I've mentioned it before, and I think i don't see it on many scripts

Because of how loud Cere is in a BMR context

But Cere+Tinker made mad as Gambler/Acrobat

[sour harness]

Heretic leviathan

You need to BUILD around it

But it's cool

[barren zenith]

I saw fearmonger + golem the other day, where the fearmonger can claim golem, nominate the player they picked and when they don't die, it can get the fearmonger an easy win

[austere steppe]

Spy cannibal is an interesting toolkit. If the spy is gettting themselves killed on purpose, you can use it like an evil ability, and if the town hunt down the spy and gank em, make it a good ability that helps town.

[hollow oasis]

hey

[flat lintel]

11/18 - How do you feel about Alchemist?

Personally, I was thinking and I dislike how some of the agency of the role is taken away for greater balance.

Like I see the argument that stopping an Assassin kill on a good player is great

but also you made that chose probably to clear some worlds?

not play charades of who's the Demon?

idk

[tacit fiber]

I think that changing it to just a minion ability is dissapointing, imo second part should be trinket text for smth like rarely, , or and not used for other abilities

Never reselect , , , , , or imo

[gray ridge]

L change

they should have at least kept the not in play ability so you get info

[next marlin]

1. dropping "out of play" is just terrible
2. the theoretical intent of "don't poisonlock the demon" is already out of the window because we already know people are going to stop alch assassins from killing the saint
   I get the idea but both halves of the change are going to be super rough in the hands of STs who like "being funny" or "balancing™️ the game" more than respecting their players, which is a lot of STs and in particular a lot of the ones who are most interested in pushing at the bounds of ST leeway

(balance™️ as distinguished from balance)

[foggy grotto]

i think its better than people think but still not good

i think the re-prompt should only be used when the game would otherwise end

[gray ridge]

tbf I think this new alch could be compared to pacifist in the sense some STs will treat it like an outsdier

[foggy grotto]

and yes this allows the alchemist to meta it but they still need town to trust them

opposed to previously where it would just end the game

[hollow oasis]

someone make a alchemist swap chart

so bad STs get a message

fast

[gray ridge]

I would prefer it just being "the demon is safe from you during the night", ik its just a bandaid fix but it feels better than current potential "townsider"

[next marlin]

the "most common" category is "once every five games"

[hollow oasis]

most common category is... never

lol

[next marlin]

I like how alch-mario is kinda interesting now, though...or, would be if it still had a "not in play" clause

[hollow oasis]

my only gripe with alchemist

is

why does alch vortox learn the wrong ability

that's really dumb

**that's like giving the wrong character token to the Soldier **

[sharp violet]

Quote from Beardy on another server: "There's been a lot of testing, similar to the plague doctor, around it being no longer a not in play ability. The 'ST can say no' is very new"

[hollow oasis]

huh

[flat lintel]

Than just execute who you chose

[foggy grotto]

its better than end the game right there

you need town to trust you

its not ideal but better

[hollow oasis]

which is... a downside of alch

[flat lintel]

thats not hard

[hollow oasis]

no one trusts you

that is of course, if it specifies out of play

[flat lintel]

if you stake your life X is the demon, town probably honors that

Especially if it happens eaely game

[hollow oasis]

yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

fair

[flat lintel]

Im glad TPI is trying things, but I don’t know if I’m glad about this

[hollow oasis]

the only role im really prompting to swap is alchhag

because

or actually

as an ST

define what you will allow

ya know?

[foggy grotto]

it’s better than just ending the game tho

not ideal but alch was still janky before

[sly crescent]

Alchemist's been made pseudo compatible with Poisoner and Pit-Hag at the cost of being pseudo compatible with Mastermind et al; BotC just hasn't enough Minion abilities that are close enough to balanced in good hands for Alchemist to really exist.

different choice prompt is an interesting addition, but removing out of play restraint makes it fundamentally a much weaker ability that plays differently on scripts - slightly more balanced, less fun.

a lot of fear around the choice change is that people play with just about anyone as storyteller, whereas the game is designed with someone who has a conscience in control of these things

it's no worse than the Mayor clause - you will die if you actually have a reasonable chance of using the ability - and ppl are fine with that

[next marlin]

The fact people in this server were going "so I'm glad we've fixed the problem that the alch-assassin could kill the saint" is a pretty good clue that alch is just going to be straight outsider with a lot of STs now

(notably a lot of people are vocally unhappy with how enthusiastic a lot of STs are to let mayors die)

[sly crescent]

notice the pattern of st is the problem though 😆 not the game

[indigo osprey]

my solution fixes all, by giving more power to the ST

[minor pier]

Ensuring the last functionnal info TF doesn't get droisoned or assassinated by the alch helps the good team, so asking for a re-pick there should also be a valid ask, and thus not be a tell you picked the Demon. I just don't like the fact it is a vibe/up to the ST thing, denies player agency, makes is a bit harder to meta/solve things if you don't know your ST much, and you'd probably want to trust your ST is good at handling that kind of arbitrary decision in the first place, too.

So, yeah, the 'repick' part I'm not a fan of. The new Alch+Spy/Widow jinxes, though ? Those I find quite interesting, and am fine with.

[flat lintel]

8/10 its just prolonging the game

[flat lintel]

Agree, the Spy and Widow jinxes are cool

[supple dirge]

I like the new alchemist, I wish it still said not in play though. I like the change for some minions. I don't care about my 'player agency' being taken away if it results in a more fun game. Alchemist pit-hag being able to end the game immediately is less fun then the st telling you no and having to convince town that happened. I probably would never tell alch cere, da, fearmonger to repick. Assassin is probably fine too as once per game. I don't think the st telling you to publically choose again will work well for psychopath or vizier but have to see how that plays out

[tardy wyvern]

i feel like the change would be better if it was “your ability might sometimes malfunction” rather than “st makes you pick again”

[acoustic chasm]

See, they did explicitly playtest that

And people enjoyed it less

I will see how it goes in practise

[sly crescent]

sometimes doesn't work would be almost a self-drinking sailor, and sometimes ST tells you to change is like sailor who drinks with someone else - get meta info in a weird way

[lucid crag]

I also wish alch still had "out of play minion"

It's useless with baron and mastermind when it used to confirm them out of play

(And I'm still unsure if alch baron and baron is +2 or +4 outsiders)

[sour harness]

It's +4

Almost definitely

Strictly speaking we don't have precedent but if 2 different characters modify the outsider count you add their values

[tardy wyvern]

if you put alch baron and baron in the same game i quit

[dense moat]

10 player game with 4 Outsiders lets go

Please dont do that

[dense hound]

yeah thats ridiculous

7 player game with 4 outsiders

[zenith lotus]

the only townsfolk is the alch baron 😉

[dense hound]

exactly

[dense moat]

is it really a Townsfolk at that point

[zenith lotus]

well, tbh the players might meta what the ST did and execute everyone not claiming outsider or alch baron

[dense moat]

It also depends on how faeup the Outsiders are

If its Drunk, Mutant, Damsel, Politician, then youll never get a thing

[zenith lotus]

true

[sharp violet]

Baron and Boffin-Alch-Baron

[lucid crag]

and starting Apprentice Baron for +6

[cyan reef]

so, random thing, I was searching for "world cup" stuff and saw this comment

I actually know the author, his name is Jeremy, he sometimes plays on my Hard Claim server/Twitch stream

I'm not actually sure the "new and improved" version is his, but all the same

[cyan reef]

can confirm that version is his

[fast anchor]

oooh that's interesting, ty sam!!

it didn't have an author on botc-scripts, so had to leave it blank when resorting it on the new script tool (because the one there wasn't in SAO)

[foggy grotto]

11/20 - 11/21 (time zone difference): Thoughts on the new Al-Had change?

[next marlin]

Dammit I forgot to give my question of "how do you feel about the fact we're finally out of questions"

It's interesting for what it implies about The Tomb but alhad/mm is such a cool jinx and I don't like the prospect of losing it

[hollow oasis]

Yeaaaa

TPI should keep it in like goblin cere

[foggy grotto]

imo the change is weird but seemingly inconsequential, but i’m sure it’ll make more sense in the context of its home script

[supple dirge]

First impression don't really like it. I liked that the demon was outed. It does make some characters work better with al-had, like them framing a goon or minstrel or something. Tbh I'm fine with those just being janky with al-had lol. I'm sure there are more home script interactions that it matters for so I think it's fine.

Does make me want to make a script with like riot summoner al-had and keep you on your toes what demon it is

[pliant grail]

Throw a sleeping leviathan on that baby

[sharp violet]

Feels like they’re gearing up for a script release

[cyan reef]

they're gearing up to sell character tokens

trying to minimize how much more experimental characters will change after they're publicly for sale

[sour harness]

👀👀👀

Yeah the change is entirely fine

I fully expect it to have zero impact on existing alhad scripts

We love an inconsequential buff

[sly crescent]

if you may skip a night it works massively different (probably better) with like half the BMR characters, it is consequential

[hollow oasis]

Again

My theory of ||lycan tomb|| still exists in my brain

Especially with this change

[sour harness]

👀

[supple dirge]

I don't think this really helps for that interaction

[sour harness]

Well now that ||lycan|| is updated, yes it does

And a minion can do the dirty work

[hollow oasis]

||agreed||

[sly crescent]

hm.. Al-Had refusing to kill anyone until they are sure Lycanthrope is out of play? sounds weird but works

[hollow oasis]

||Also familiar might be on the Tomb||

[sour harness]

Nah I was thinking they can bluff it

[sly crescent]

tbh i was mostly thinking of the so far kinda broken but now maybe compatible Al-Hadikhia v Exorcist script

i'm not familiar with any speculation characters nor do i want to be so 🤷 about the hype

[tardy wyvern]

script improvement IMO, fixes lots of interactions and opens up some interesting strategies with drunkening characters

[fast anchor]

the al-had scripts I like aren't going to change much because of it, so I'm fine with it

I actually liked the Mastermind jinx so a little sad if that's going

[next marlin]

[time]: How do you feel about the fact we're officially out of questions?

[young sonnet]

We're definitely not

There's just untapped areas we haven't gone into yet

[karmic slate]

I saw the change and was gonna see what I could do with Ride the Cyclone and went “Yeah I don’t think any combo really makes it shine so no change and if the Al-Had chooses not to kill sure”

Maybe I revisit it with things like Minstrel and Goon but idk, hard to say

[sly crescent]

elated to prove you wrong by asking: who would make that official?

[next marlin]

Me because things are true when I say they are

ez

(terrifying that the thread was dead for 3 days though 😭)

[sly crescent]

careful now, the meme gang might get the idea that you think time is real

[next marlin]

It exists when I say it does and doesn't when I say it doesn't

[sly crescent]

insanity plea usually works, yeah

[dusky minnow]

We definitally haven't run out of questions. There will always be variants of "What would each character be in X situation?" to be explored and I bet there's types of questions we haven't even explored

[sour harness]

[dime]: how do you feel about the fact that vati is out of questions

[fast anchor]

idk what you mean when you're saying "we"

you've seen the shipping questions, we can go so much further

[indigo osprey]

Shipping questions?

as in: If you were the Scarlet Woman, who'd you date?

[fast anchor]

like this question

[fast anchor]

but that's also a good one

[dusky minnow]

[sharp violet]

[sharp violet]

That's who the baron would date

[sour harness]

Well no the SH will almost always drunk a townsfolk

Which is the person they're dating

[tacit fiber]

I see this as more of a "Queerplatonic chaos duo"

[tacit fiber]

[supple dirge]

The baron seems like he has his shit together

[indigo osprey]

Hangs around with these couple of outsiders though

[lucid crag]

[dense hound]

what characters would you not only remove from the game but from the minds of everyone

[hollow oasis]

Poppygrower

Poisoner

[agile sigil]

Heretic

[tacit fiber]

[sour harness]

I like pois on exactly TB

[sour harness]

Yeah I agree

[sour harness]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-meme-cat-staring-cat-stare-stop-staring-at-me-please-gif-9315292369693569596

[tacit fiber]

BMR if TPI ACTUALLY EXPLAINED HOW TO USE IT IN ITS ALAMANC

[next marlin]

I read the icon as ravenkeeper for a sec

[sharp violet]

Savant, Snake Charmer, Al-Hadikhia

[dense hound]

SAVANT?

[sharp violet]

These are mainly characters I find insensitive or mildly tasteless design-wise, which has been one of my broader criticisms of the design of this game

Shugenja is fine for me

[gray ridge]

Poppy grower

Bounty hunter

[sharp violet]

Kinda wish this thread was in #speculation-and-spoilers ngl

[next marlin]

Honestly yeah there's a lot of specspoiler stuff that'd go hard here

[hollow oasis]

you hurt me

[next marlin]

My personal brand of disability self-advocacy looks at Savant and goes "based, literally me irl" but disability advocacy is always going to have a million fractured disagreements

[hollow oasis]

besides snake charmer, but that's only a little

[sharp violet]

Ye a character like Savant is gonna do that

Snake Charmer and Al-Hadikhia bother me more

[hollow oasis]

AlHad is weird

it's just a fez

but like

[sharp violet]

I will say I'm glad TPI's been moving forward with things and making better and more tasteful characters

Boffin was once gonna be Hunchback

[hollow oasis]

Honestly, none of these characters are as bad as skinkulus

I'm not gonna spoiler that

[sharp violet]

I think Skinkulus was just filler because they couldnt come up with something for SnV lol

[hollow oasis]

it is so so so so bad

worse than any other character, it's ability is even tasteless

[next marlin]

I know, right? who the hell likes mint

[sharp violet]

BOTC in the 2019 and 2020 era was different ngl

[hollow oasis]

For reference for those uninformed: ||Skinkulus(Demon) Each night*, choose a player: they die. If all differ in gender to you they turn evil & may not vote (even if you lose this ability).||

[sharp violet]

Early on it did have Australian gaming group DnD style vibes so I get they didn't really develop cultural ideas from other places in the world as in-depth

[hollow oasis]

then it was made to be inclusive

good design decision

[sharp violet]

Ye

[hollow oasis]

👍

[sharp violet]

Honestly BOTC made me understand the importance of those things more lol

Back then I was a teenager in a bubble so I didn't really understand the importance of diversity much beyond not discriminating against people

But now I can see how it can make things richer

[hollow oasis]

anyways

I really don't think about names of characters much

[sharp violet]

Id still probably delete Snake Charmer if it were just an ability lol

[hollow oasis]

fair

[sharp violet]

imagine seeing snake charmer come up in #homebrew-characters today

[hollow oasis]

as abilites i'd kill Poppygrower/Poisoner

[sharp violet]

Im ok with both

Poppygrower I dont like much i guess

[hollow oasis]

i hate poppygrower for making games into big teensies

also poisoner ruins a lot of customs

I see it on there and think fuck imma hate this

[sharp violet]

Idk

I feel like it's something that's easier to take into account in game than on paper

Particularly late poisoner

I've seen it on stream too

[hollow oasis]

people put it on the wrong scripts

[next marlin]

Pois being very frontloaded on its homescript in particular is one of the things that tempers its strength a lot

But people throw it on places yeah

[sharp violet]

Experienced players just know their info is bad after a certain point

[next marlin]

And even on homescript late poisoner can fuck over mayor and sometimes slayer hard

[hollow oasis]

I like stationary droison

[sharp violet]

Slayer is probably the worst interaction with Poisoner

[hollow oasis]

because it's solvable

[sharp violet]

Mayor is fine for me

[hollow oasis]

i like literally any other droison character

specifically poisoner I hate

[sharp violet]

I don't think of games in terms of solving to be honest

[next marlin]

I think we could probably do with some more semi-static evilsided misinfo

[sharp violet]

Poisoner is dynamic and requires social counterplay

[hollow oasis]

it's why i like widow

but semi static?

[next marlin]

Because in terms of droison minions Poisoner and Widow are both roles that aren't wildly script-splashable

[hollow oasis]

actually

heh

[sharp violet]

Yea I think this is the real problem with scriptbuilding

[hollow oasis]

poisoner but fearmonger announcement

[sharp violet]

People hate Poisoner and Godfather abuse

[hollow oasis]

would be cool

[hollow oasis]

I really hate poisoner abuse

[next marlin]

Places between Puzzlemaster/Drunk and Poisoner on the mobility spectrum
Sweetheart is somewhere on this
Widow is actually on this, the fact the poison disappears when the widow dies changes it compared to e.g. PM

[sharp violet]

But the situation is often that we don't have great outsider mod and misinfo options

[hollow oasis]

Lemme make a list

[next marlin]

"You start knowing what Outsiders are in play. If one of them died today, choose a player: they receive false information from now on, even if you die. [-1 or +1 Outsider]"
(false info because droison makes it too hard to solve that it might be in play)

[hollow oasis]

Drunk,Poisoner,Philo,Sweetheart,Vigormortis,Nodashii,Sailor,Innkeeper,Courtier,Minstrel,Goon,Pukka,Cannibal,Village Idiot,Puzzlemaster,Widow,Lleech

[sharp violet]

Drunk is like infamously annoying to make good Outsider mod with

It's usually Baron Drunk

[next marlin]

more potential tweaks: "choose a role and it happens if it's in play", "ability malfunctions" for non-info abilities

"choose a role, it happens if it's in play, otherwise ST decides who"

Vortox Juice Godfather

Maybe include nightkills but I don't know if that unbalances it

[sharp violet]

Big thing is that Droisons issues generally come to frontloading

[next marlin]

Yeah that's the problem I'm working with

I like vortox juice godfather as a concept but droison is the opposite form of misinfo to madness in terms of power scaling over the course of a game

[hollow oasis]

Drunk,Poisoner,Philo,Sweetheart,Vigormortis,Nodashii,Sailor,Innkeeper,Courtier,Minstrel,Goon,Pukka,Cannibal,Village Idiot,Puzzlemaster,Widow,Lleech

found every droison role

it's actually alot

[next marlin]

The townsfolk ones don't really count though except VI

And VI is a half-point

[hollow oasis]

Sailor/Innkeeper counts 1/4 each

[sharp violet]

most static droison sources point you straight to good winning

if you solve it

[hollow oasis]

I enjoy that alot

personally

[sharp violet]

No Dashii, Lleech, Puzzlemaster

[next marlin]

People complain "no dashii is weak on snv" (because their STs run it poorly) but holy shit is it worse on customs

[sharp violet]

its a pain in the ass when scriptbuilding

[next marlin]

ND customs are virtually always either "droison spam everywhere" or "banshee didn't proc lol"

[hollow oasis]

actually wait

I don't mean it like that

I thought you meant in general

[sharp violet]

I've been thinking about Boffin-Philo in a script lately

it's actually very interesting, especially with more public roles which boffin also combos with

[hollow oasis]

I like boffin

however, i'm usually metable on the fact that I do not give confirmation abilities

[sharp violet]

The funniest thing is when you're not a No Dashii but then some random neighbor not understanding their info kills you

I've been working on a Tomb-like script, boffin-philo actually ties some stuff together

[hollow oasis]

boffin is best droison minion lmao

[sharp violet]

Actually I'd probably wanna delete Sentinel

[hollow oasis]

wait no

no no no

please

[sharp violet]

Sentinel existing prevents design space for better sentinel alternatives for fabled

[hollow oasis]

oh

that's fair actually

[next marlin]

This very nearly happened to me as the vortox in a 7p recently because I was intentionally selling non vortox but the seam forgot who they picked and thought they had a mechanically impossible yes between me and my minion

But my ultimate plan of "people would have info that 'clears me in non-vortox'" worked out in that I got one good player to tie on the minion

[hollow oasis]

I actually remember this one homebrew fabled

Steel(Fabled):There is at least 1 outsider in play.

[sharp violet]

Active or passive?

[hollow oasis]

passive

[next marlin]

I think that's in Lizards

[hollow oasis]

i saw it in a SNV but bad script

[sharp violet]

Yeah, except it's called Mirage and not Steel

[sharp violet]

people forgetting their info makes for some of the funniest moments in this game

[hollow oasis]

I hate it when people do that

[sharp violet]

Me when the good twin juggler forgot who they juggled:

The worst part is the evil twin also claimed juggler and said they didnt feel like juggling

[hollow oasis]

OW OW OW OW OW OW

MY BONESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[next marlin]

The last time I ran twin jugglers the good twin decided to just vortox check and juggle self juggler/twin ET, then town proceeded to hard vortox check

[sharp violet]

snv moment

[next marlin]

Meanwhile the evil twin got every single townsfolk's claim

[hollow oasis]

(me as outsider moment)

[sharp violet]

Still can't forget some of the most ridiculous moments I get when playing with new groups

"I juggle this person as the Vortox... wait that's pointless I juggle them as the No Dashii" (they were the No Dashii)

[hollow oasis]

seriously

my bones dissolved

[sharp violet]

my group literally soured on SnV because we had a streak of like 5 games of the dumbest improbable things happening

in their first 5 games

[hollow oasis]

oh god

[next marlin]

average snv

[sharp violet]

I didn't even put Snake charmer in until like the fourth game, which immediately had a snake charming

[hollow oasis]

what happened

what does the ledger say

[sharp violet]

lemme see if I remember

[next marlin]

I think I remember you posting about this and it was like, an immediate dreamer snipe, juggled demon, and something else

[sharp violet]

yes

[next marlin]

this one?

[sharp violet]

1. Vortox game and they didn't execute
2. Dreamer snipes the Demon night 1
3. The Juggler randomly juggled the No Dashii
4. The twin pair didn't claim and lost
5. The snake charmer snake charmed immediately

yes

[next marlin]

Inexplicably hidden twins aren't limited to new players either 💀

[sharp violet]

yeah

in other groups though Evil Twin was so fun, it was fucking hilarious

[next marlin]

someday twin savants will work

[sharp violet]

Idk its not as bad as people make it out to be

[dense hound]

I'm counting all this as discussion from my question to prove we still have things to discuss

[sharp violet]

I usually just take suspiciously long with both twins and have a conversation with both

[next marlin]

I think the last twin savants game went pretty well but also the good twin immediately became the mutant and ended as the fourth demon, so the 'twin savant' part itself wasn't doing much

[sharp violet]

snv moment

[next marlin]

This was the game with the sagekill/philo-snakecharm

[sharp violet]

That's one of those things where I have to see it to embrace the stupidity of it all

my #2 favorite moment I saw streamed on BOTC was also pit-hag shenanigans tho

[sharp violet]

For some reason they were playing a script with Virgin and Lleech, the Virgin was the Lleech host
Evil won

3 demons, completely normal

" 0 1 2 4"

💀

[next marlin]

The good gangster was sitting between the pithag (ending cere) and the dreamer who sniped the pithag, immediately shot the dreamer, left his seat, got grim, and went "I fucked up"

sc-poisoned-philo was starting witch

[sharp violet]

there's a philo snake charmer and anoher philo who went town Crier?

[next marlin]

(0 kills)

The town crier note is because the witch-turned-fang-gu-turned-philo was bluffing tc

I forgot to add the sc poisoned token because there was a lot going on

[sharp violet]

oh ok

I'm so disappointed that my #1 Clocktower moment that I watched on stream ever didn't become a youtube video

The Seamstress gets a "no" on a Minion and a socially good Townsfolk and starts pretending to be the Bounty-Hunter turned Seamstress and voting suspiciously
Both the Ojo and their Minions are giga-fucked so they do a hail mary on killing "Barber", which is in play
Swaps themselves with the Good Seamstress
Then uses their seamstress ability on the good Demon and their Minion and gets a "No"

[next marlin]

F

[sharp violet]

I died laughing it was so good

[hollow oasis]

My SNV games are never like this

:(

[sharp violet]

Do you play 15p

[next marlin]

I mean you did have the one where the klutz-confirmed philo-sc-turned-demon got witchkilled in f4 after slipping the noose

[hollow oasis]

that vigor game isn’t even close, that was the most chaos I’ve had in an SNV game

[hollow oasis]

Wait

I had that one?

[next marlin]

I'm 99% sure you were STing that one

I remember because I was the clockmaker who subbed in n2

[hollow oasis]

I don’t recall

Oof

[next marlin]

The savant info was definitely yours

(it was twin savants)

[hollow oasis]

Right triangle?

[next marlin]

There was one of the weird shape ones yes

[hollow oasis]

Def me then

[next marlin]

You tried to say the evil team formed a "bowl" but the savant heard "ball"

[hollow oasis]

Lol

man I thought he heard me correctly

[next marlin]

also you turned the demon into an sc rather than a philo

But yeah it was a very memorable snake charmer moment

[hollow oasis]

for the record that was at least 4 months ago

maybe 6

[next marlin]

I've made the same mistake before tbf

What's really funny is when you get into canni-snakecharmer

Or pixie-snakecharmer

Or, god forbid, apprentice

[hollow oasis]

oh I forgot to wipe out travellers

[next marlin]

I've seen a game with both a snakecharm and a canni-snakecharm

[hollow oasis]

I would choose to make people force forget the following:

Poppygrower

Poisoner

Bishop

Gunslinger

Gangster

Apprentice

And that’s about it

[foggy grotto]

poisoner is kinda essential for TB

but yeah it’s very swingy on customs

[sour harness]

Yeah valid

[tacit fiber]

like the actual way to run pacifist is taught through a nonTPI graphic???

[tardy wyvern]

amnesiac

[austere steppe]

Amni for sure. ST making us playtest yay

[fast anchor]

not ?

[sharp violet]

Probably, just forgot about it

[indigo osprey]

you guys are nuts; poppgrower and poisoner are great

I personally don't like how riot changes the game

[karmic slate]

https://tenor.com/view/kingbluprint-gif-21436316

[low burrow]

You are now shadowing steamseed

-> Grim link provided by (ST) πke [6W/4L]:
https://clocktower.live/#ike
-> Grim link provided by (ST) mousey_ (they) 🐭:
https://clocktower.live/#mousey

[next marlin]

wrong channel lol

[ebon idol]

[nov 24]: what’s your favorite two-character synergy?

[sharp violet]

Scriptbuilding synergy or in-game synergy?

[ebon idol]

Honestly both

[sharp violet]

Scriptbuilding , great synergy and opens a lot of bluffing space

In-game my favorite synergy Ive played was

[ebon idol]

Baron drunk is super iconic yeah

I’m fond of lunatic + poppy/magician as I’m a sucker for evil info misinfo, I would say more on the script building / ST side

[supple dirge]

Lunatic marionette is also a lot of fun

[ebon idol]

Agree yeah

A really cool combo I saw recently was lunatic with boffin zealot

In general boffin just has a lot since.. it can do everything lol

[dense hound]

monk vortox

[supple dirge]

I always like cerenovus and pit hag together, opens up a lot of space for bluffing, distrust and madness plays

[tacit fiber]

is silent and busted

[fresh dagger]

[barren zenith]

I agree with Karniv, baron + drunk is really good for evils bluffing outsiders

[sharp violet]

There’s a reason it’s on TB

[sour harness]

There's many reasons lol

But yes

I love me some vigor tinker

[foggy grotto]

Yagga Golem is pretty great

makes it an actual outsider

same as Golem Boffin to a lesser extent

[flat lintel]

It’s not super silent

It’s super obvious by playstyle imo

But some ppl can hide it well

[ebon idol]

Honestly I think spy poisoner is overrated

Like, a lot

[flat lintel]

But like the majority, just do what you think they’d do

Also considering the grim is built around that interaction

Evil doesn’t get a free win

[copper quail]

That's personally a combo that I just don't like... It is not super fun and feels a bit bad even on TB 🫠

[hollow oasis]

Widow is spy poisoner but fun

[zenith lotus]

[hollow oasis]

[flat lintel]

hmmmmmph

[flat lintel]

as in making the damsel a heretic?

[hollow oasis]

???

no, as outsider mod

with heretic

it's cool

[zenith lotus]

you cant make the damsel a heretic with huntsman

the huntsman turns the damsel into a townsfolk

[flat lintel]

its been a while for some of these things

thanks for the refresher

[ebon idol]

For script building, STing, and what it does to games I love stuff like +

Since it just creates a lot of incentive for lying for all players which makes more interesting games imo

[fast anchor]

that's three

[zenith lotus]

its 3 characters that have 3 memorable 2 character interactions

(they just happen to also have a funny 3 character interaction as well)

[fast anchor]

something i'm a fan of as a scriptbuilder

ojo missing to sell a GF game when an evil bluffing outsider dies 🔥

[indigo osprey]

Nov 25: Savant is the secret 14th character on BMR. You are ST'ing a game and the randomizer put it in. The savant is coming to you. What kind of information are you giving? Feel free to freely make up whatever assumptions about the grim you want.

(My hunch: savant info is completely different on BMR than on S&V)

[sour harness]

Oh yeah it'll be super different for sure

I'd give stuff about which characters killed who, how many players must survive execution today, etc

Honestly? A lot of the stuff I hear gossiped

Outsider count doesn't suck as info

Just, like, do it right lol

"the goon is evil"

[devout quail]

i think "[demon] is the lunatic" could be a heat false statement

or something that points towards the demon being the lunatic

probably don't actually name them

of course, you could also use true statements to point towards a real lunatic. world's your oyster

[sharp violet]

“The Demon did not kill last night” after a night with 2+ deaths

[zenith lotus]

[Gossip] killed [Tinker] last night

[devout quail]

i think BMR lends itself to more interesting actionable statements for the "lock and key" savant model (i.e. one statement is something the savant can actionably work to figure out the truth value of, while the other is a much less actionable statement "locked" behind the truth value of the first one)

could do "[player] will always survive execution today" with some other statement

[sharp violet]

“[player] will always survive execution tomorrow” as a true statement (fool neighboring tea lady, zombuul is in play, no other roles that can kill or droison others remain in play)

[sour harness]

[player] killed [player] is super risky because the only good characters that can kill anyone but themself are gossip and moonchild

And mc is super public

But, if they're vocal about being the gossip and ideally being framed, yeah sounds great

[zenith lotus]

(this is also the false statement, the tinker killed the tinker) 😉

[sour harness]

D1 "you must survive execution today or a clockmaker would receive a 2"

It's like giving "you are witch cursed"

Ooh ooh "good characters have killed more players than evil characters or the DA has successfully saved a good player"

Ideally in a zombuul game

You can also give a bunch of SnV characters as savant statements now that they're off script

[zenith lotus]

gives savant info as one of the statements

[sour harness]

"there are 2 dead evil players" (the dead zombuul and the self killing godfather)

[sour harness]

Nononononononono

"your gossip today is true"

"nobody can be pacifist saved today"

"the lunatic chose a townfolk"

D1 "at least 1 player must die by dawn" idk if the wording is clear

Maybe "it is impossible for all players to be alive next dawn"

[devout quail]

i actually reqeuested to get savant info as a spec for a bmr game once

spec savant info is more general and less actionable than real savant info actually

an interesting lategame one i got was "all good players with active or unspent abilities are dead"/"if the good team nominated and executed the demon today, the game would immediately end." (it was f/t, there was still a sailor alive but it made for an interesting frame, while the demon was pukka with no mastermind and the da protecting themselves that day)

most of the rest of them i got were more tailored to longform/being a spec

[tacit fiber]

what is "spec savant info 💀"

[devout quail]

i was a spec. and i asked for savant info rather than full spoils

so i got a true and a false statement every day

[tacit fiber]

funny

[sour harness]

I actually love that second statement

Between DA zombuul and MM it leaves a lot of worlds open while still being super useful

[sharp violet]

11/24 (time doesn't exist): what's something you've seen upset newer players that you think is totally fine?

one of my players just ragequit when goon found and joined the evil team in a teensy

[hollow oasis]

Extra evils aren’t fine in teensies

the script builder even acknowledges that

it literally says goon sucks in teensies

[sharp violet]

i thought vigormortis high school was a good teensy script

[next marlin]

it's a 2020ish custom

they're all a little janky

[next marlin]

Newer players don't tend to grok why executing likely goods in the early game can be useful ime

The narrowest form of this is the notorious virgin problem

[zenith lotus]

the existence of philo. "i can just be drunk by a fellow member of my team and now i'm useless?"

[next marlin]

And yeah philo picking an in-play role is another thing that's difficult to wrap your head around

Which inspires a lot of philo holding

(they're correct when it's philo sage though lol)

[zenith lotus]

i also did not make a public disclaimer that the no dashii could not starpass, which actually lead to an evil win because ET. the player was still mad tho

[hollow oasis]

Honestly

I don’t play with new players often tbh

which is mostly because of the scripts I play and run

but ya know

[zenith lotus]

nah, just shove a new player into one of your customs, what could possibly go wrong

[hollow oasis]

Hate of legion

[zenith lotus]

the levi kazali one seems beginner friendly

[hollow oasis]

So literally everything

[next marlin]

i also did not make a public disclaimer that the no dashii could not starpassFwhich actually lead to an evil win because ETaverage snv series of events

[hollow oasis]

I’m getting someone else to run that because people are cowards

Lol

people are scared of heretic for some godforsaken reason

[zenith lotus]

fun fact: ET is the best minion on SnV 😉

[hollow oasis]

It peaked in 2023 tbh

[hollow oasis]

Truth

I love Evil twin

[next marlin]

I love being a twin

no one shares this opinion

[hollow oasis]

Same

[hollow oasis]

I’m right here with ya

I’m in a forever twin pair with Parker27

[next marlin]

It's interesting how people intuit starpassing as "default" rather than "one of the strongest demon abilities in the game"

[hollow oasis]

It’s quite weird

[next marlin]

I need people to stop calling hypothetical vanilla demons "worse imps"

[hollow oasis]

To be fair, It is on TB, a script balanced around it

[next marlin]

Someone mentioned a house rule once with their new player group that kazali can starpass and this lives rent free in my head forever

[zenith lotus]

i remember that 😭

[next marlin]

guaranteed best demon player is always the demon every game 🔥

[hollow oasis]

Oof owwy ouch my BONESSSSS

[zenith lotus]

honestly, the worst part about this series of events was that they were attempting to starpass TO THE ET

[hollow oasis]

Lollll

[zenith lotus]

because its "such a weak minion ability"

they were later humbled cause it yk, won them the game

[hollow oasis]

It’s such a weak minion ability they said

I can’t win with this they said

[next marlin]

Pithags when they turn the evil twin into another minion (they will lose solely due to this action):

[hollow oasis]

I really need a Cerenovus they said

Tbh lazy

Make a good player the cere instead

No one trusts them

[next marlin]

In fairness town did actually trust the good cere, they just had no idea what the hell to make of it

It was one of those "this is too weird to bluff but too weird to solve" scenarios

[hollow oasis]

Town didn’t trust them at all

should’ve picked a good player

[next marlin]

Eh I was speccing the private chats and town was definitely believing "there is a vigorkilled good cerenovus"

They just failed to worldbuild around the implications of this

Like "the savant is poisoned so don't execute the sage claim"

I think by d3 everyone was too confused 💀

[hollow oasis]

Win

That play has worked twice

Once as vigor once as fang gu jump to barber

Whilst my minion sits back and Looks evil at f3

[next marlin]

Evil's wincon in snv is pretty much "make everything so weird that town gives up"

[fast anchor]

courtiers drunking minions n1/n2 instead of holding for the demon gutshot

[hollow oasis]

Truth

[hollow oasis]

even tho drunking DA is objectively meta

[next marlin]

but axo, I chose po and no one has died for 2 nights, I'm confirmed and it's confirmed po

[fast anchor]

no what ends up happening is the courtier grandchild holds it for 3 nights and then fucking dies

[next marlin]

we need to execute the demon candidate TODAY or otherwise we're going to immediately lose to a po charge!!

[fast anchor]

instead of like, using it on the assassin or da or even mm

[next marlin]

(in fairness, the demon candidate was the demon. the pukka.)

[hollow oasis]

DA is absolutely best early

[fast anchor]

it's also super unfun to force upon people so I'm glad it hasn't hit my group yet

[hollow oasis]

Late I’d say MM

[fast anchor]

"if you didn't drunk da n1 you're evil" is unfun af

[hollow oasis]

Truth

[zenith lotus]

nah, all courtiers go snake charmer, we know this guys

[next marlin]

yeah I drank with the da n1 so we should test this guy sitting next to me as the hardconfirmable tl (I'm the da)

[fast anchor]

courtier tinker :D

[next marlin]

hhr gaming

[fast anchor]

ok courtier there is actually problematic

all hail preacher

[next marlin]

the courtier making the optimal meta pithag choice when the pithag damselguesses correctly:

[hollow oasis]

To Be Continued

[fast anchor]

the sober ph making a damsel and socially reading the fuck out of town to guess them:

[hollow oasis]

Lol

PH damsel is a great jinx

tbh

[next marlin]

it's hhr, just soft 2 million mutant tells from d1 in advance as every townsfolk

[fast anchor]

im the librarian who saw damsel 😌

[next marlin]

I don't like how much higher preacher's ceiling is in levi especially

preacher can pretty easily fuck up all the minions

[hollow oasis]

And that’s why vizier

[next marlin]

(and then in turn if it's baron or marionette they're just actively negative utility rather than "at least we closed a world")

[fast anchor]

im a big fan of tc preacher goblin on hhr

[zenith lotus]

nah preacher marionette is a fairly good interaction i'd say

[next marlin]

I like preacher mario but it is not very townsfolky

[zenith lotus]

you stop their social reading

[next marlin]

it's the bounty hunter problem

[fast anchor]

it tells the marionette they're evil, which can be really bad for evil depending on who they are

[hollow oasis]

Mario getting socially evil suddenly is bad

For evil

mario shouldn’t know they’re evil

[zenith lotus]

ooh, what's the BH problem? other than BH being bad

[fast anchor]

if the evil team's been trying to get them onside the whole game and it confirms it to them, then it CAN help evil

[next marlin]

socially-determinable alignment is not a magick characteristic that relies on the colour of your token to the oppression of everything else

[hollow oasis]

It’s 50/50

[fast anchor]

but an evil team playing marionette that way has bigger problems tbh

[next marlin]

the BH ability is oppressive and boring but its downside is a cool unique thing for scriptbuilding

so it goes on scripts for its downside

[zenith lotus]

and how does that apply to preacher marionette?

[next marlin]

preacher is similarly an oppressive boring ability with a cool downside

[hollow oasis]

BH is quite

BH should be an outsider

That learns the evil they made(and it can now be an outsider too)

this is evil sides because no one trusts bounty hunters anyway

[fast anchor]

but muh evil banshee

[next marlin]

this but unironically

[zenith lotus]

just put a mez on the script 😉

[hollow oasis]

Nooooooooo

My Spirit of Ivory

[next marlin]

yeah but I don't want vigor/mez and I do want a vigor game with an evil banshee

[zenith lotus]

pit-hag

[next marlin]

or at least, I don't want the evil banshee to force taking up a minion slot with a less useful minion

[hollow oasis]

evil banshee wins games

[next marlin]

but consider having the cere AND the pithag AND the evil banshee

[hollow oasis]

Good never wins

[next marlin]

throwback to when the kazali script had mez and one guy played two consecutive games as the banshee and lost both on different teams

[zenith lotus]

hrmmm, put a BH on the script, good needs some firepower 😉

[hollow oasis]

I’ve seen evil banshee(and been it) It’s OP

[hollow oasis]

I had the exact opposite experience

2 banshee games in a row

Different alignments,won both

[next marlin]

also even if we pretend marionette has the magick social optimality people pretend it does, this is, like, good in midgame? a spent minion who reads socially good in the mid-to-late game is a problem for evil (unless it's exactly an imp game)

[indigo osprey]

Everyone is at fault here for playing with goon in teensy

[next marlin]

(a minion with a powerful ongoing ability reading good is desirable as long as there's some way to prevent it from backfiring in f3)

[tacit fiber]

Lying about your role while not being a dedicated bait role

[ivory ridge]

what's the virgin problem

[next marlin]

New players often see Virgin as a very damaging outsider because "instantly kills a good player" sounds intuitively bad

[ivory ridge]

wuh

why

me when 2 people get confirmed as good or spy

[next marlin]

If you're brand new to botc the whole "your confirmation is often more valuable than your life" thing isn't internalized yet

[ivory ridge]

kinda funny too since virgin like almost always proc on d1 for me

have you ever see a d3 virgin proc vat

[next marlin]

yeah when a new player thought it was an outsider and desperately hid virgin until like d4 💀

[ivory ridge]

that's crazy

did virgin proc

[sour harness]

THIS IS SO FUNNY

[sour harness]

-# It's not quite what the question is asking but it's in the spirit of it:
"why would we execute? Doesn't that just mean we're getting rid of good players' abilities?"

(like, no, the demon isn't gonna kill themself)
-# ((well unless they starpass but they're not gonna kill themself in a way that matters))

There's also the common "so all my information could be useless?? Then why am I even playing"

[next marlin]

My preferred phrasing is "prone to dramatic reversals of fortune"

[sour harness]

I've mentioned the time I won bc my demon (vortox) starpassed, but that was a clearly intentional move lol

[next marlin]

You've mentioned this game so many times that I think of it every time I see the person who was vortox that game post

(I backread the chat messages for the game because I lurk the game channels despite never playing livevoice in this server lol)

[sour harness]

Lol

Yeah big brain move by Coral

That was prob my most memorable online game

• pulled cerenovus
• blatant madness break that should've executed but didn't
• bluffed flowergirl effectively
• my fg demon frame and the good twin were in private chats a lot
• vortox starpass
• dreamer correctly seeing vortox
• twin win

[next marlin]

you forgot dreamer seeing the evil twin as the good role in a confirmed vortox game

alongside correctly seeing the vortox

[sour harness]

You should know I'm lying if I claim flowergirl past D2 because if I was real id be hecking dead

[next marlin]

and wasn't this also the game where the vortox was accidentally meta-confirmed vortox because the ST originally showed vigor before going "oh wait the vortox is dead so it has to be true whoops"

[sour harness]

Oh did that happen lol

I forgor

[sour harness]

Yeah I reminded the ST (privately) to not show false info lol

There were also savant twins

Nobody really looked at the info they had

But that had to be corrected as well

[next marlin]

average savant twin pair

[sour harness]

Hmmm I wonder who could have possibly shifted the group's focus away from the savant info

And towards my very real flowergirl info that points to exactly [demon frame] and [good twin]

Neither of them voted the first 3 days lol

Or wait no they voted every day

Yeah it was 3 no's which means that they did vote

[next marlin]

I'd say I enjoy the logic of looking at 3 bluffs, knowing there are twins so you only have to take 2 of them, and taking flowergirl, but also last time I was snv evil I decided to bluff "true dreamer info ruling out all vortox worlds" as the vortox so I'm at least as crazy

[sour harness]

Incredible

[next marlin]

(the third bluff was flowergirl. I liked the dreamer chances better)

[sour harness]

Wait I'm reading back the chat logs, this is so good

I forgot that I outed evil more than a tiny bit

[acoustic chasm]

BMR Savant Statements

[person claiming sailor] would survive execution today.
Evil players caused 1 or less death last night.
The Tinker did not die to their own ability.
Today is a Mastermind day.
3 or more players are drunk or poisoned.
[Tea Lady neighbour] would survive execution today.
There can be at least 4 deaths next night.

The Fool has died once this game.
There is at least one drunk evil player.
The Demon did not kill anyone last night.
An evil player has survived execution this game.
[player name] cannot be resurrected by the Professor.
Yesterday's gossip by the Gossip was true.

[dense hound]

(technically you should say "would" not "will" cause you can't survive execution if you aren't executed")

[acoustic chasm]

true true

[flat lintel]

The Fool has no ability?

[acoustic chasm]

?

that could be one if they are droisoned at the time

i see what you are doing there with it being a more general version of 'fool has died once'

[indigo osprey]

BMR savant looks like so much fun, not gonna lie

[sour harness]

Also bmr math :D

[sour harness]

Noooo what's wrong with BMR math

It's practically a different character than on snv, sure

[acoustic chasm]

At least 1 player died to their own ability this game.
At least 3 characters can cause players to die this game.
There are at least 3 Once Per Game characters this game.
The Demon chose multiple players last night.

[sour harness]

Oo I like that last one a lot

"no evil players woke last night"

[indigo osprey]

'The game can not end today.'

[austere steppe]

New players get pretty angsty about tsvibes meta

[foggy grotto]

Savant on TB 🤔

i think that just wins games

[dense moat]

11/25 (time is Dialga's property): What is something that you don't think evil teams bluff often enough?

[barren zenith]

Undertaker, especially in 1 minion games, everyone just believes them

[dense hound]

Virgin

A spent minion like baron doing so can really waste the good teams resources and limited executions

[barren zenith]

Also, evils never claim to be pit-hagged on SnV for some reason

[sour harness]

^^^

Twins, sure it's hard but it's doable especially in 1 minion games

[barren zenith]

It's doable in all minion counts

Twins don't often out at the very beginning of day 1

[sour harness]

I mean that's a meta thing

Metas almost always end up there at some point

Well, on snv. Can't speak for other scripts

[fast anchor]

the easy answer is "receiving the coffee when the Barista chooses them"

the hard answer is "anything which involves nightkilling an evil as a non-vigor Demon"

[flat lintel]

i agree with this

[sour harness]

So many imps never starpass

Recently I had an imp bluffing unspent slayer starpass to a SW in a 1 minion game. That move won them the game

There was no real suspicion or threat of execution even

It just made the most sense for him to die that night, and the SW was in a great spot with a recluse bluff

[dense moat]

With Barista one, did you mean recieveing a Barista ping at all or one of the specific options?

[fast anchor]

Receiving a ping at all

When an evil gets doubled and doesn't bluff getting the coffee to town that day, an angel loses its wings

(and the barista is so getting exiled that game)

[agile sigil]

Imp bluffing Virgin

With no SW

[dense moat]

a Saint loses their wings and gets executed

[agile sigil]

No but actually bluffing Virgin as any evil is so powerful

[fresh shard]

Especially as the Cerenovus :p

(a party trick I've never managed to pull off because for good reason you don't often see them on script together)

[fast anchor]

is it really? it seems like it just creates a one-for-one that town can just execute both sides of most of the time

At least when I play, town doesn't keep a failed Virgin alive

[hollow oasis]

my games always have living failed virgins

lol

until like f5 lol

[fresh shard]

I'd very rarely try it as the demon, but as a minion, directing two executions and making town less sure if the relevant player is good is a decent trade for my life

[zenith lotus]

i've been a failed virgin twice, both times i was executed in f3 💀

[hollow oasis]

truth

[fresh shard]

I usually find the demon kills the virgin when they're running out of frames

Similarly town usually executes failed ones when they don't have a good demon candidate

[gray ridge]

being snakecharmed

[agile sigil]

In the game I’m mentioning, Virgin was a bluff and I (Poisoner) hardclaimed Librarian (not a bluff but luckily not in play) who saw drunk on demon/some other player. Then got executed d1 because it’s a joke in my group after willing to die Soldier nominated.

So demon basically won bluffing drunk Virgin. F3 had demon, Investigator, Washerwoman which was very funny

Also had me (Lib seeing Drunk) and the 3 face up outsiders all claimed on d1…of a 11 player game. Our Baron was (badly) bluffing Saint

The funniest part was that the other half of my ping was the actually drunk Empath getting correct info

[supple dirge]

Bluff madness/being pit hagged after the cerenovus or pit-hag dies

[austere steppe]

I was recently bluffing virgin as a minion, and my other (mostly outed) minion nominated me. I then caught a starpass and won. I think you really have to kill into your team to sell it as evil.

I think twins do not get enough time in the server for a meta to develop, but really there should be more evils bluffing twins together.

[supple dirge]

Evil twin with legion is a lot of fun

[fast anchor]

I think I see more evils bluffing Twins in Legion games compared to S&V

[supple dirge]

I've only seen it 2 times in 1 minion snv games. Both times worked pretty well for evil

[gray ridge]

I've seen 2 good players bluffing twins lol

[next marlin]

I've seen "two players randomly decide to claim twins, and usually they're either two goods or a good and evil, because statistics" significantly more than I've seen concentrated attempts by two evils to bluff twins

[next marlin]

And in games without spare executions, being snakecharmed as the demon rather than a minion

Very dependent on how much your meta wants to kill snakecharmed demon claims, of course

But I still remember vividly the game where the No Dashii claimed snakecharmed starting Vigormortis on d2 and town eventually concluded "he's doing an outed minion play, kill the other socially evil guy"

[zenith lotus]

11/27: What's a character you dont use a lot in script building, but wish you did?

i personally NEVER use vortox but it can be a cool dynamic that i dont to experience a lot outside of SnV

[sour harness]

Ojo

If I use it it's usually because I need another demon

But it's so much cooler than that

[fast anchor]

Lord of Typhon is so cool as a concept but it's so finnicky

TF Acrobat is another one that I wish I knew where to fit it

[supple dirge]

I feel like there's a lot of interesting possibilities with evil twin but hard to fit it in with other minions/demons without just making snv

[next marlin]

Pithag cannot go on scripts without warping them beyond recognition but it's so funny

[gray ridge]

organ grinder

[fast anchor]

the thing with PH is that its baseline of "each night* (for a few nights), neutralize a townsfolk ability" is just so ludicrous

and then once you get to the funny stuff it gets hilariously bonkers

me when the ph makes the fortune teller into the puzzlemaster, yippee -2 tf abilities in 1 night

[next marlin]

didn't good win that game anyway

[fast anchor]

the one you're thinking of, yes, but this has happened more than once in games I've both played and run

[next marlin]

The real 2000000 iq move is to self-transform puzzlemaster in a teensy

(ideally a levi/timer demon teensy so it actually does something)

[fast anchor]

we have evil sweetheart at home

[next marlin]

Evil sweetheart that also might get to coordinate with the demon

[fast anchor]

my favorite mode of PH has always been duplicating good abilities

And then Boffin happened

[hollow oasis]

Well

You got to understand

+Bluff and Ability

And you don’t remove a minion?

That’s great

[austere steppe]

I actually really like pithag on single demon scripts

[primal crescent]

I mean idk about you

but Pit-hag is better than boffin

bc you can just do whatever you want

like https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1309960441857835110 has a bunch of pit-hag interactions

[foggy grotto]

11/28:

What’s your favorite thing that you do/have done while STing to disrupt players from meta’ing you? This can be a specific event or just general things.

And anyone who says anything about sailor will make me come after them

[fast anchor]

I let my players meta me

But, like, if I had to pick one... idk, showing two evils in an investigator ping?

[next marlin]

Drag out phrasings of dreamer (if I'm doing it verbally rather than by card for whatever reason) or savant info to make it look like I'm thinking seriously about "what to give for the false half" when that's actually the true half

[fast anchor]

reaching into the other side of the Grimoire to pull out a "bluff" as the true character is a favorite pastime too

[next marlin]

"you learn philosopher or...uh...clicks fingers cerenovus"

[foggy grotto]

shoutout to giving a sober and healthy info role the barista double and having them CONVINCED that they’re droisoned

[next marlin]

Similar: repeat bits and pieces of various juggles to obscure if I'm trying to keep a real juggle in my head and which one it is

(and try to vary timing of "noted, got it, next one" during juggle circles to not look too obviously like I'm speedrunning the fakes)

I'm in the "metaing the ST is part of the game" school of thought and will actively encourage metas on the order of "assume the ST is basically competent, understands the script, and is not running 1 minion vigor twins with a clockmaker who could get a 4" but I will go out of my way to avoid giving meta-info off of phrasing if I can

[sour harness]

I reach inside both halves of the grim at least twice usually

[sour harness]

I need to do this more often

[next marlin]

I honestly only have a very vague idea of what a physical grim looks like but yeah the verbal equivalent of that

[sour harness]

Different people have different setups for it

I asked a question about it here a while ago

[next marlin]

(99% of my dreamer info is by card but there are edge cases and I will drag out those edge cases)

[sour harness]

But I have the token box on the opposite side from the in play character tokens, which is the relevant part

[fast anchor]

vaticidal hasn't read the almanac, cringe

[sour harness]

Boooo

[next marlin]

(vat or vati)
I did at some point but it was months ago and I kind of skipped the bits about physical games

actually I think I read that post much more recently but also parsed it as "huh, that sure is a box with a bunch of stuff in it and no identifying details"

The only memorable part of the almanacs that isn't reproduced on the wiki is how bad the example bags for the intermediate scripts are

[fast anchor]

TRUE

innkeeper prof shab fool goon TL da my beloathed

wait there's a sailor there too I think

[next marlin]

no sailorInnkeeper, Tea Lady, Pacifist, Professor, Fool, Tinker, Devil’s Advocate, Shabaloth. In this game, both the good and the evil team need to work hard to kill opposing players. There are many ways that death can be prevented for both sides. During the day, executions may not lead to death, and the good players will need to figure out whether this is due to the Pacifist, the Devil’s Advocate, or someone else. At night, the Shabaloth will need to choose their victims wisely, or else be prevented from killing at all. Players may be brought back from the dead, and the good team would be wise to put some effort into figuring out why.

[fast anchor]

+2, "The Storyteller will make a balanced setup" is not a harmful meta

[next marlin]

A very close friend of mine who is fairly new to the game once implicitly assumed I was running 1 minion vigor twins and I explained to him at length after the game that I am not that bad at STing

(also that outsider count didn't work for it but)

Bagbuilding meta is fun because it's a constantly shifting strategy

Excluding "assume the ST is competent" baselines, there's a lot of leeway such that you can notice tendencies people have and then get your ass kicked by extrapolating them too hard

So it's fun regardless of whether you're right

[fast anchor]

Introducing people to BotC means you can do very fun things