secret thing

[acoustic chasm]

(though an inexperienced town against a LoT might find themselves outvoted if they aren't careful. That is the most rough thing about this demon)

[sly crescent]

what ure saying u want Kazali but the cow is cooler

[tardy wyvern]

Amne fits on almost every script in my experience, the ST just needs to make a good ability for the script

[dense moat]

Maybe Noble. Its a solid info role that doesnt really break that many scripts

Assuming at least some care in substituting

[faint ember]

Drunk or knight

[barren zenith]

Fisherman

[indigo osprey]

Knight doesn’t fir on script (imo) with scarlet woman, fang gu, pithag and lil monsta

[tardy wyvern]

also lleech

[sour harness]

I disagree on savant. It usually won't break scripts but there are some scripts (e.g. SnV) that make it a much better character than it would otherwise be in a vacuum

I'd be so sad because that loses out on so many possibilities, and then I'd probably just choose goblin bc it's funny

[austere steppe]

Amne is a bad role and doesnt deserve a place on any script.

[austere steppe]

I think Clockmaker, Chef, Nobel, and Shuj can all be used fairly interchangeably as a way of identifying the location of evils in realtion to other players. Clockmaker and chef are very strong (often over powered) on most scripts, and the other two being pretty easy to slot in anywhere. Its incredible how much a chef/clock number (real, drunk or fake) drives nominations all game.

[zenith lotus]

i would say shugenja probably. noble is insane in teensies.

[fast anchor]

This is my opinion about Fisherman, too

It won't totally suck on any given script, but on the right script it can really shine

Fish can pair well with characters with interesting decisions, like Huntsman, Philosopher, Heretic, Legion, etc

[tardy wyvern]

is this a serious comment and if so I’d like to hear why you think this /gen

[fast anchor]

anyway, Noble is the one that comes to mind here.

[tardy wyvern]

noble is good in everything except for 7 player games

you basically split the grim in half which is extremely powerful info

disregarding that it’s probably my favorite YSK for script building

[hollow oasis]

Noble pings in 1 minion games

“Oh i learned 1 of these 3 players is evil?”

Then 3-5 of these players are good

[sour harness]

Noble can learn itself too

[tardy wyvern]

yeah but that feels bad imo

[sour harness]

To obfuscate the non pings

[zenith lotus]

then its just a seamstress no 😦

[hollow oasis]

Feelsbad moment

[sour harness]

It feels bad at most player counts but at 7-8 it's fine I think

[hollow oasis]

For evil

[sour harness]

Or like, at 5

Ain't no way you're not showing the noble itself in a 5p game I feel

[tardy wyvern]

what are you doing putting noble on a teensy script

lmfao

[sour harness]

We have to put it on everything no?

[zenith lotus]

^

thats a reason you wouldnt pick noble

you cant make teensies

[sour harness]

I do like shugenja a lot

[tardy wyvern]

I'm okay with this

[hollow oasis]

Ngl

I’d pick

Hmmmmm

Hrmm

This is hard

[zenith lotus]

legion 😉

[hollow oasis]

Nah

[zenith lotus]

thats your expertise

[fast anchor]

It's just a weirder investigator that can see the Demon on teensies

[hollow oasis]

(I like it sure, but i want to make a leviathan script lol)

(And like, vizier)

ya know

[zenith lotus]

nah, its either you learn one evil player or you learn two seamstress no's.

[hollow oasis]

Things that suck with legion

[zenith lotus]

i've been the noble in a teensy, it just solved the game

[hollow oasis]

Ouf

Honestly

Ngl

Huh

No,

Hmm

Savant

there

WITH MY SAVANT INFO LOL

RIGHT TRIANGLES GO BRRRR

(you know what this means if I’ve Sted for you)

Connect the dots Savants

“Best info”

[tacit fiber]

Amne is literally as bad as you make it

[austere steppe]

Very true.

[tacit fiber]

then, I feel like it just reflects badly on you if you think it's bad

[austere steppe]

Sorry, yes this is a serious comment, one that I recognise is somewhat counter to what most think. Once upon a time home brew was allowed in the queue, and it was really painful. Amni is like that but legal. I've been through enough iterations of [+1 Snake Charmers], [Super powerful impossible to solve] and [Invisible impact and +1 evil] to know that St's really can't help themselves. It kinda encourges to think of cool abilities, but not to think if that cool ability is fun to play as or with.

[tardy wyvern]

this is honestly a fair take but I think the potential for creating your own abilities in terms of script building is really good if the ST generally knows what they’re doing. if they don’t it’s kinda rough but sometimes funny

[tacit fiber]

I think that it's not really a fair shake to judge smth based on what a bad storyteller does

becuase in that case

Blood on the Clocktower is a bad game

[austere steppe]

Ah but see, thats the genius of BOTC, NORMALLY, the roles and characters limit how bad an ST can actually be. For example, BMR, a bad ST could kill a gambler who gambled correctly with a correct gossip statement. Pretty bad. A bad ST on SNV could make the evil twin paired with a dreamer. Pretty bad. Players can still have fun and solve in those games tho.
Amni says "Hey, bad ST's, no training wheels, go ham"

[indigo osprey]

People should describe 3 amne-abilities they have come up and used before, before they are to be expected to run a script with amne for players that don't know them :p

I F****ed up one of my more interesting ones lol

[supple dirge]

Botc requires trusting your st, obviously some scripts more than other. That doesn't make amne a bad character

[next marlin]

Amne has the unfortunate characteristic that the people who most want to put an amne in every game are the people who should be putting it in no games

[indigo osprey]

I recently had: Each night, choose a player. If an outsider is chosen, they become a townsfolk. (It was a base-2 outsider game.)

[austere steppe]

It is like DND DMS who create DMPC's.

[young sonnet]

^^^ Amne is a good character, but yeah, it does not belong on every script as filler like people do

[tacit fiber]

no it doesn’t, as long as the game has been compromised for you it’s bad, it doesn’t matter how compromised at that point, I’ve had a storyteller not give me the win because I didn’t guess the recluse, I’ve had a storyteller make a hardconfirmed day 2 game solve on TB, I’ve had a storyteller give me savant statements on the bluffs that the demon got, does that make any of those characters horrible? No! Literally anything with st agency can be fucked up by a storyteller. That doesn’t make the role bad that means the st is bad

[austere steppe]

I think we are on the same page here. My opinion extends to "Amni encourages even good STs to make bad choices"

All of the examples I posted were from CEST's

[next marlin]

What do you mean re. "savant statements on the bluffs that the demon got"?

[tacit fiber]

NO

Bad STs make bad choices with Amne

Good STs don’t

[tacit fiber]

“One of the demon bluffs was an outsider”

[indigo osprey]

that's useful information

[next marlin]

I've given "[x role] was a bluff" as a mid-late-game statement (both true or false) a few times

[indigo osprey]

(assuming the ST has heard an evil bluffing it)

[next marlin]

"One of the demon bluffs was an outsider" seems less good but could strongly imply vigor

[tacit fiber]

Not really

It wasn’t

I promise

It made Savant unfun and unsolvable

[indigo osprey]

sometimes ST's also make mistakes

I wouldn't go to 'bad' or 'good' instantly from that

I have seen TPI storytellers make questionable decisions on stream

that doesn't make them bad

[austere steppe]

I disagree with this, Good STs are exactly the type that want to try something new because they have been in heaps of games. They are probably more likely to make a bad choice with amni.

[sharp violet]

I think it's fine to dislike ST agency roles. I don't really like Amnesiac and High Priestesss, and it's not a matter of good or bad ST'ing, I just don't enjoy their play patterns

[indigo osprey]

I have made questionable decisios

the important thing is: learn from that

[ivory ridge]

technically amne but i hate amne with a passion so 😔

not because of logic, i just have bad amne game 🔥

[austere steppe]

Yeah, I think ST agency roles enable more opportunities to make bad choices. I dont think that makes the ST bad. They just got baited. Amni is the worst offender of them, and thus I do not like it and consider it a bad role. That is a personal opinion.

[cloud plover]

If it's a custom script... could you pick Amni but add a bootlegger so the Amni always gets the same, balanced ability?

Call it homebrew lite

[ivory ridge]

yeah but that would defeat the point of the question

'oh i just pick a character that i can turn into anything'

[cloud plover]

That's a fair point

[tardy wyvern]

you are allowed to have this opinion although I do not agree at all

I think if the ST is good, amne is almost always super fun

[austere steppe]

If that was what I was wanting to achieve, id do philo-bucket. You can philo into any off script good character.

[tacit fiber]

I don’t think that’s a good st?

[next marlin]

Amne is good to have on scripts because making people mad as amne is even meaner than making them mad as savant :)

[young sonnet]

And I think part of this is due to a lack of versatile Townsfolk characters for scriptbuilding. A lot of characters lock you into certain styles of scripts that may or may not have already been or you might just not be interested in

[tacit fiber]

A good st understands their group and that they are responsible for many players fun

[sharp violet]

I don't agree honestly

[austere steppe]

Mate, every ST here is 'bad'. Its a transient server.

[ivory ridge]

wdym mad as amne is mean?

[young sonnet]

So Amne allows you to preserve your script-feel without needing to dramatically alter it

[cloud plover]

Some good characters might be broken though. The point of Amni is to create a role that's novel, yet balanced, and not to just allow anything to happen, or at least that's what I thought

[tacit fiber]

So then don’t play with them, it doesn’t make the role bad

[tardy wyvern]

I think what makes a good st and what makes a bad st is a whole other conversation but my main point is that at its peak, amne is one of my favorite characters just due to the versatility

[austere steppe]

Haha, True, but only when you run it!

[next marlin]

If the ST can run madness well then the player has to come up with a whole-ass amne ability, which is very mean for the mad player and very fun for the cere
(mutant amnes are even funnier, because they're doing it 100% to themselves)

[cloud plover]

I mean, the mad player can just claim to be getting colds and vague info, right?

[ivory ridge]

wait, when cere make someone mad as the amne, does it have to be amne with a specific ability?

[austere steppe]

I can agree, I have just never experienced this.

[next marlin]

Me when I give someone else my amne script to run for the first time and they immediately have an amne with an evil moonchild

[cloud plover]

"I learned a zero, I learned a one, I learned a zero again"

[young sonnet]

Also this ^^^^
Good STs don't make bad Amne abilities 98% of the time
But long-running STs, bad STs, or bored STs, sound like what Fundetta is talking about

[sharp violet]

My problem with Amne is that it can feel very swingy. I've had STs make reasonable, balanced, and solvable Amne abilities, but the Amne can't figure it out and it just feels useless

[next marlin]

This is still fine because they still need to suggest something those random numbers cohere into or town will think they're bluffing really badly

[austere steppe]

Yeah, I do agree, but experientially, I've only encountered below average amni abilities.

[ivory ridge]

i feels like as i am understanding can't you just pretend to have a similar ability as your real role

[sharp violet]

The other ST-oriented Townsfolk don't as extreme binaries of useful and useless which is why I don't enjoy Amne as much

[young sonnet]

This is why I always advocate for balancing Amne abilities to the player

[next marlin]

If you're pretending too close, it's a break

[austere steppe]

Like the perfect amni abilities are just reflavoured already existing tf abilities.

[next marlin]

It's the same thing as savant, if your mad "savant info" is blatantly just flowergirl info or something you're doing it wrong

[ivory ridge]

like investigator mad as amne goes something like "my amne give me 2 character ping, 1 good 1 evil, on two player" is that breaking madness

[cloud plover]

"On the final day, you might get a hint as to what your ability is, even if dead"

[austere steppe]

Because those are generally balanced and guessable. Two important parts to fun.

[next marlin]

yes lol

[young sonnet]

If they're really not good at guessing Amne abilities, make it similar to an ability that already exists

[next marlin]

Or like, maybe not exactly that

[young sonnet]

Or give them a hint

Or anything

[next marlin]

But if it's over the course of a couple days it becomes clear they're just giving invest info something is wrong

[young sonnet]

The point of the game is for everyone to have fun

[ivory ridge]

like i feels like good player that are being mad can just bluff something plausible 'enough'

[dense moat]

Geuninely, Amnesiac is harder to run sometimes than Athiest. Athiest can be limited by scripts, but if you imagine it as "ST controls evil abilities & makes some drunk inf", theres only so many ways to mess up

[ivory ridge]

and then it comes down to the ST

and if the ST execute on something that in later grim reveal towns go "you shouldn't execute them for that" it's just like 🤷‍♂️

[dense moat]

You dont have to randomly make an evil player compete against the good team. Some people do succeed with that, but its very context dependent. And ultimately, Athiest is meant to do what I said 9 times out of 10

It just has the flexibility to do more if it is fun for the game & group in question

[next marlin]

Yeah but it has to be plausible enough lol

Like if it's clearly your real info something is wrong, and amne is a pain for the same reason savant is a pain there, i.e. it's trapping someone into a difficult bluff

[austere steppe]

And chambermaid

[next marlin]

Oh that's mean too I love that

[ivory ridge]

i'm just saying is that 'plausibility' here can be different between the ST, the player so it can just be miscommunicated (sometimes)

[austere steppe]

I find chambermaid almost universally to strong in BOTC.

[dense moat]

Chambermaid... does require very specific scripts. Which is why I usually avoid it

[sharp violet]

Loll I have a funny memory with Chambermaid

[ivory ridge]

anyway a character that fit in every script hmmmm 🤔

[sharp violet]

My friend was an evil chambermaid and I figured it out and he asked me after the game "How tf did you know I was evil" and I told him "You were just like confirming everyone and going along with their claims" but he really was just giving honest numbers every time

[young sonnet]

Chambermaid is to BMR what Dreamer is to S&V

[austere steppe]

As evil, I find being dreamt way less oppressive than being picked by chambermaid.

[indigo osprey]

that's because chambermaid works perfectly on BMR, especially the fool-devil's advocate interaction lol

[supple dirge]

In bmr exorcist can mess up your bluff if the chambermaid picks you that night, which is fun

[austere steppe]

For me, three c's of the apocalypse that drive most narratives are chambermaid, clockmaker and chef. Games just warp around their info.

[ivory ridge]

so ur telling me i should always bluff them if they are in play 🔥

[austere steppe]

Yeah for sure. If they in play, not in play, if you are good or evil, just the best way to get people executed.

[sharp violet]

(philo into amne)

[minor pier]

Chambermaid is my bane. Not only do I forget about half the time to ask for a re-pick if a dead player was chosen, but the moment I try to build a balanced custom with it (happened thrice so far), it becomes central to the whole thing's design in order for good & evil to have varied waking patterns. Has me revise the thing to hell and back. It's like making sure Philo doesn't have a single best choice, but worse.

More on topic, I'd actually consider placing Town Crier on about any script. Solid info role, its strength is mostly player-controlled, can't be abused to hell and back. Vizier is about the only caveat.
For an outsider option, can't go wrong with Mutant.
Evils are just too situational for blanket recommendation I find.

[sour harness]

I very very strongly disagree with mutant as a character to put on your average script

It's a townsider if the script doesn't support it

Moonchild and golem

TC is interesting, I wouldn't have thought of that

I think I agree actually, it doesn't have many bad interactions

[next marlin]

Yeah tc is fun to just kind of stick places

Its most awkward common interaction is with recluse but I don't consider this a huge problem because tc info isn't really that strong as to justify cautioning someone from nominating after like d2, and also math can track this

[sour harness]

I think it works best with witch and vortox, but it's not like those are necessary

Yeah as long as there's no psycho or vizier it should work pretty well

[austere steppe]

TC is kind of irrel info by itself, but when combined with a cm, chef, etc becomes good. Thats how roles should be.

[fast anchor]

I personally think TC can be kinda unfun without a witch? "alright, you, you, and you nominate, and if you deviate you're evil"

it's fine without it but prime TC is when there's a witch on script to screw with it

[next marlin]

just policy execute people who do that ez

[fast anchor]

recluse/tc is better than, say, recluse/flowergirl

(or god forbid, both on the same script)

[next marlin]

Clearly the ideal way to balance "extra good nominator and voter" is by not letting them nominate or vote ever

[fast anchor]

I strongly disagree with this - at its best, it wastes an execution for the good team confirming a dead player

which is far from the same level of townsider old acro/moonchild/golem can get to

it's best with Cere, but it's not as strong as you make it out to be without it from my experience

[sour harness]

It's a volatile virgin self nom

[fast anchor]

yeah, exactly — a virgin self-nom is a dubious execution to town at best

and the mutant is strictly worse than that since it's ST-controlled

[sour harness]

With cere it becomes possible to bluff (even if it's a bad idea), making it weaker

[fast anchor]

and the ST will be fucking over town with it, because that's what an Outsider does

[sour harness]

But also like

Mutant madness (the madness itself) is kinda useless on, say, TB

Not totally useless but it's nowhere near as potent

[next marlin]

My personal gripe with "random mutant everywhere" is that "random mutant everywhere" tends to assume players will go full method no matter what and that you can get "funni mutant madness all game" by sticking it on any random script without extrinsic motivation

[sour harness]

On SnV you can just say "hi evil team I'm the mutant, hi good team you should believe my false info, wow I'm the fang gu that's crazy"

[fast anchor]

it's definitely not something you can stick everywhere but it's something that's decently flexible

especially on scripts where executions are more valuable (e.g. multideath scripts)

[sour harness]

And this is a big part of what makes mutant shine imo

[young sonnet]

Ehhh not as much as MC and Golem
You basically execute less so that evil can bluff it more and make the legit claims seem more suspicious
A ruined execution to confirm a dead good player isn't super useful

[acoustic chasm]

Not really? Like, yes they are similar, but cow has distinct upsides over kazali

[indigo osprey]

Mutant is definitely not an outsider you can just stick on everything.

[tall raft]

Noble is good in teensy scripts

What are you talking about?

[indigo osprey]

Noble on teensy is noble+seamstress all in one (or double noble)

[minor pier]

Exactly this yes. Execute your Mutants less if there's no Cerenovus on script, it breeds strong paranoia, and town might still want to execute them anyway to avoid having an outed Mutant on final days, meaning you deny confirmation but still force them to waste an execution (and make it a solid bluff for evil). And multideaths scripts are even more painful for that indeed.
It gives Mutant another option for playstyle, playing loud instead of hidden, but it absolutely is still an Outsider.

[zenith lotus]

noble is insanely overpowered in teensy scripts

in 5p, you either get two seamstress no's or you learn one evil player, and in 6p you get a noble ping and a seamstress no

[sour harness]

execute your mutants less
Ok so their outsider ability isn't proccing as much. That's fine and all but I don't see how it's not a townsider

[tall raft]

They become a more impactful tinker basically

That’s not townsider stuff

[young sonnet]

^^^^

Simply being an outsider "because they can confirm themselves with outsider count!" does not make them a Townsider lmao

Any good script will not let a mutant w/ no Cerenovus do that

And is also a misunderstanding of the "Townsider" concept

[tardy wyvern]

the main reason mutant is damaging as an outsider in my experience is because if a mutant breaks madness, the ST can execute them at the most inconvenient time possible

[ivory ridge]

I wonder if you can stick washerwoman/investigator into most script

[sour harness]

Not really no

[supple dirge]

I think the only bad interaction with those is vortox

[sour harness]

Investigator is the worse of the two

Investigator + loud minions is pretty bad because it's not particularly bluffable

[minor pier]

It's less about bad interactions and more about being too powerful without Drunk/Spy/Recluse to balance it all out

[sour harness]

There's also a bunch of minions that are just bad interactions

Oh yeah absolutely, TB's misinfo suite is another big part of that

But like... invest seeing ET? Really? You're gonna do that? Didn't think so

Same with marionette

[minor pier]

Invest seeing Marionette is hilarious, especially if Recluse Marionnette interactions happen.

But otherwise, yeah, it's Sage++

[sour harness]

Sure but I also just think recluse and marionette really shouldn't interact

Invest goblin: another example of a bad interaction

[minor pier]

Well, TPI agrees, except now that the community has had said interaction for a long time, it's hard to go back. Personnally, I like it, I just take its existence into account when scriptbuilding (like, if I don't want it, I just forego Recluse)

[next marlin]

this is the only thing I've ever seen an invest ping on in twv

[sour harness]

I wonder why

[next marlin]

It's stupid but you have to admit it is very funny

[minor pier]

"just in case the twins decide to be quiet trololol"

[sour harness]

Oh I agree with that part

[next marlin]

Invest ping on twin snakecharmers :)

[minor pier]

If you twin a snakecharmer, just prepare for the inevitable betrayal. And loss of the evil team once they realize a new good twin happens and learns who the correct evil twin was and who the Demon now is.

[next marlin]

Just don't out as twins ez

[minor pier]

I'm pretty sure the majority of players would out before realizing the problem

At least the first time x)

[gray ridge]

I had a game where the marionette investigator saw a marionette

[next marlin]

Twin snakecharmers basically never out, though yes it's kind of an "at least the first time" problem

[sour harness]

I wanna be a minion in a snake twins game so I can bluff that I saw the SC as the evil twin

[gray ridge]

And they were also the lunatic mario

[sour harness]

Or something along those lines anyway

[next marlin]

I'd argue invest is somewhat overrated power-wise (it needs some of the tb misinfo suite but the bits it needs are the popular ones that are easy-enough to fit places), but it's interested in fairly specific minions because most loudish minions are just...lame with it
The thing that makes invest unique as a minionfinder is that it reveals a specific minion being in play, as opposed to e.g. TC which identifies minions without determining what they are
This makes it really cool with mechanically quiet minions and arguably outright necessary with poisoner, but most minions in the game are too loud for it because their presence is likely to be determined at some point of their own accord
The ceiling for what it works well with is somewhere around widow

Invest/grim peeker is super cool though

[sour harness]

Widow is pushing it I think

I wouldn't be mad if invest and widow were on a script together but I wouldn't love it either

[minor pier]

I've definitely put Investigator on some of my customs (the whole Marionette thing, possibly with Recluse pulling double duty for the pair is neat, I somewhat like the vizier jinx, etc...). It's just not at the "put on every script ever" level to me, and that was the starting point of that discussion ^^

[sour harness]

Recently I pulled spy, it was great and I was able to get the scarlet librarian confirmed. Unfortunately the demon didn't starpass after I told her to, out loud

[next marlin]

Most successful spy-based confirmation chain

[sour harness]

Yeah vizier and psycho loop back around to being good, actually. They make invest into essentially a different character though

[next marlin]

Vizier is interesting for the jinx but I don't get the psycho one unless it's exploiting the psycho/golem jinx

[minor pier]

Sure, and I'm fine with that. Nuanced and varied play patterns is something I like to see on more of TB's crew.

[next marlin]

alright lemme go do some recluse stuff

[minor pier]

Until Psycho/Golem settle in their final form, it's hard to predict how it'll end up with Invest

[sour harness]

Psycho is roughly the same dynamic as vizier

[minor pier]

11/6 : What are your green flags/red flags when it comes to homebrew, provided you've dipped your toes in it ? Are there specific things that make you avoid, or embrace, specific scripts ? Alternatively, if you never play homebrew, be it singleton characters, hybrids, or full scripts/formats, why ?

[sour harness]

[Luis OM copypasta]

EN NWMs

Strictly less harmful saints

"you think you are a minion" without delicate care

[+1 Demon] without delicate care

(Demon) "all players know who you are"

[minor pier]

I'd add "you start knowing who the Demon is" + some form of limited communication to that list of red flags

[sour harness]

Oh I forgot you asked about green flags too lol

[minor pier]

Yeah xD Though that was a good start, I've seen most of those and fully agree x)

[sour harness]

"must" or "can't" when it comes to communication

Messing with dead votes without VERY delicate care

Green flags? Not having the red flags. Most of these are extremely easy traps to fall into, if you can avoid them consistently then you probably know what you're doing

Also just cool dynamics

Coherent scripts that actually feel aware of the entire list of characters on it

[minor pier]

More of a taste thing, but "extra chaotic" scripts with two dozen of over the top abilities just don't do it for me. I like my chaos as much as the next guy, but things like "Lies, Spies and Eyes" just make me close the script sheet and move on.
I do like to stretch what can be done with the system in all Amnes, but defined scripts shouldn't take 5 hours of study to internalize interactions and possibilities (Fall of Rome is about the top of what I'd consider "complex, but still somewhat approachable" design)

[sour harness]

Noooo LSE looks so fun

I have yet to play it

But I really want to

Omen is crazy tho ur right

[minor pier]

It might be fun for some people, hence the taste comment. But seeing something like 20/25 roles interact with or directly cause death just makes me shake my head

[acoustic chasm]

Face Your Fears is a script thats fits well together

but is a utter headache 😂

[minor pier]

Oof, yeah... at least there's a bit more diversity, but it looks like a headache alright ^^'

Actually, it's a bit like boardgame design to me : you can't just pile mechanics and abilities onto a script, a good homebrew should have the fat trimmed and abilities streamlined, to retain the best parts and lose the ones that make it too tall an order for most groups. (Of course, if accessibility isn't part of your concerns, you can just go full complexity like heavy wargames do, but don't expect your script to be played as much ^^')

[dense moat]

I've really come to appriciate hb colelctions. there are like 10 or so HB collections. Way I see it, most of them show cear dedication, epseciall since they often take attentin to write almanacs in offical style

those are my green flags. i tend to trust characters made b those creators

https://apoc-homebrews.notion.site/d42959ed44ae4e4ea814c5c8c9d49efb?v=13cd908f0d3f47be815c7f926ba405c0 This is where some of the most famous creaors have linked their stuff. I highly reccoment giving it a look over

For reference, everything here is public. Its just all in one place

[austere steppe]

I think less is more when it comes to homebrew. The tokens shouldn't be like MTG cards where you need to read each word like you are learning to read to comprehend it. I used to think that there could be a space for more key words, but I've since come back on that somewhat.\

[young sonnet]

I love the people who made Face Your Fears, they're really smart and made a very thematic and dynamic script
HOWEVER, I will never play it because it is simply wayyyy too complicated. I'm not the intended audience, so that's perfectly fine, but yeah I can't really handle overly complicated full homebrew scripts. The claiming Spartacus mechanic in Fall of Rome is pretty much my limit when it comes to extra Stuff

[young sonnet]

I agree with pretty much everything Hystrex says here and above

Biggest green flag is when the abilities are worded properly (or close enough) to official Clocktower syntax

It shows at least a bit of passion and thought was put into the design

And it's not just regurgitated ToS or Mafia design

It makes the ability so much easier to understand and the intent clear

Another green flag for me is when the ability and the name/icon resonate

When there's a clear theme, it's so much more compelling of a character/idea to me

But when it's just some gobbledegook stapled to some generic or completely random word, my eyes just kinda glaze over

OH red flag Hystrex didn't mention:
Playing with resurrection (good or evil) without really understanding the strength of the mechanic/how to make it useful for evil
Playing with "register as dead" without understanding what it means/how to balance it

Biggest red flag (to me and me alone) is when people reinvent ||Creeping Terror|| from first principles

[sour harness]

What's that (mechanically)?

[sour harness]

• playing with "survives execution" (in any form) without understand what it means/how to balance it

BMR does a great job with it but it's very easy for it to become a really really bad mechanic

[young sonnet]

VI, Noble, HP, SoI, Moonchild, and even slightly FG I think are all valid themes

Bishop too

Al-Hadikhia and Knight though don't make sense lol

[supple dirge]

Steven said at the first vegas con he tried to make all the names thematic somehow, except flowergirl he just liked that name and couldn't justify it with the ability

[young sonnet]

Demon that chooses 1-2 players at night and then doing 1 of 2 things: has an alternative choice to kill all marked players OR the marked players die when the Demon chooses them again

It's lame as fuck and I don't know why so many people find it interesting

[sour harness]

Ohhh

[next marlin]

Which is funny because flowergirl kinda makes sense

[sour harness]

Yeah shab is just more fun lol

Or po

[zenith lotus]

the flavor text made it work imo

[turbid granite]

arsonist is the greatest demon how could you say this

[sour harness]

How????

[sour harness]

How??????

[zenith lotus]

not wrong tbh

but thats in among us

[next marlin]

The demon's presence desecrates nature

[sour harness]

Ok?

That doesn't make it clearer for me

[next marlin]

demonfinder
traces the demon by its destruction of the natural order (her flowers)

[young sonnet]

VI: well-meaning, but dumb as rocks, so they can socially tell when people are up to no good, but one of them is too stupid

[sour harness]

"if a demon is in play, you die" :3

[young sonnet]

Actually

I won't explain all the themes here

[next marlin]

This is also the flowergirl's ability so it still works

[young sonnet]

I don't want to distract from the banger question

[sour harness]

Ok valid then

[zenith lotus]

"Yesterday's violets have withered and died, but today my poppies bloom."

Flowergirl flavor text

[sour harness]

True

[young sonnet]

Ping me in general #speculation-and-spoilers if you want me to explain the themes for the others

[next marlin]

specspoilers IS general

[zenith lotus]

it has general within it

along with every other channel

[next marlin]

oh true, it's not just general

[next marlin]

it's also #sects-and-violets and #bad-moon-rising

[young sonnet]

And reposting so new people see

[next marlin]

and the nonexistent lore channel

(we need a lore channel, I have shit to post)

[fast anchor]

Green flag: honestly, it being a hybrid (that is, incorporating official TPI characters). A homebrewer recognizing when they've been beat and don't homebrew for the sake of being fully original? It means they've thought about how the script functions enough to determine that a TPI character fits best.

Red flag: evil info manipulation/blinding without evil counterplay. Double Agent (NWC) takes the place of a Minion during Demon info, and blinds that Minion from Minion info - strong, but every Demon has some kind of play around it (Comintern is the majority, Seclorum can ask if who they saw is the DA, Kabal can start constructing their own evil team, and Draconis can starpass to the Minion), plus it gets weaker in 2+ Minion games since the other Minion(s) can usually tell the Demon who the blinded one is. That's fun to play around as an evil player, instead of "whoopsy doopsy good luck finding your evil team!"

[acoustic chasm]

Good characters/evil characters that add extra evil characters.

Usually without the player's consent

[young sonnet]

It's fine if it's base count (usually), but yeah 100% agree on extras added mid-way

[young sonnet]

If that's a green flag for you, you'll like something that's upcoming...

[fast anchor]

ok, to clarify, that's not me saying all hybrids are good

but generally most hybrids (especially ones that started as full homebrews) have a fair bit thought put into them

Dela's [REDACTED] is what I'm drawing on - like, there's no way you can homebrew something that's better than Alchemist or Harpy on that script, and Dela recognized that

[austere steppe]

Agreed, but also mostly there is only so much design space in characters that keep their word limit down (which they should) so it just makes sense that those characters have already been made

[young sonnet]

Oh yeah no, I understood what you meant, I wasn't trying to imply you'd like any hybrid script, I was just trying to tease something cool that may be coming in the near future

(you might not like it, but I think it'll probably be good, so I'm anticipating you might enjoy it)

[sour harness]

Hybrid script where every townsfolk is actually just a snake charmer

[zenith lotus]

but worded slightly differently

[next marlin]

Is that like 13 snake charmers or is it 1 snake charmer and 12 homebrews that are all variants on snake charmer

[fast anchor]

Snake Charmer
Rake Charmer
Snake Farmer
etc

[turbid granite]

its time to make snakes charming

[fast anchor]

rise of the goons 2

snake edition

[supple dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/sideshow-bob-rakes-gif-10807867

'Rake farmer'

[dense moat]

oops all amnis but every Amni is a Snake Charmer

[acoustic chasm]

Oh yeah

Character Limit

If a character seems to take up a huge number of words, thats a red flag

If a character is messing with 3+ ideas, that's a red flag

[fast anchor]

That's a good one

I think the almanac opening line is a good metric too

If you can't sum up the character in one sentence, something's wrong

[sharp violet]

Green flag for app homebrews: the storyteller didn't create the homebrew

Red flag: they did

Honestly can be said about customs to a lesser extent

[fast anchor]

i'm going a step farther than not wrong

that's just

[sour harness]

regularly runs her own customs in livetext

[dense hound]

red flag doesnt mean bad it just means be cautious

[sour harness]

Yeah I'm just teasing lol

[lucid crag]

If it looks better than Town of Terror that's usually my line of green or red flag

[fast anchor]

this just isn't true? most of what I run is stuff other people make

im like, the one livetext st who doesn't do that

[tall raft]

That’s what livetext is all about

That’s why it’s so great

[acoustic chasm]

also

Just depends how willing they are to change their ideas based on feedback

Or to describe their thinking for a character

doesn't need to be deep

[acoustic chasm]

this is more important tho

[lucid crag]

11/7: You're Klutz, you're executed and pick the player you learned was Nightwatchman night 1. Your team loses due to Lycanthrope making the Nightwatchman register evil. What do you do/feel?

[next marlin]

[agile sigil]

That the Lycan should be changed to "registers as evil to you"

[zenith lotus]

angry that a klutz is on a script with new lycan

just why

[agile sigil]

yeah this too

[tardy wyvern]

or at least evil to non game ending abilities

imo that should just be a hard rule if it isn't already. you already cant make a recluse register as evil and win with evil

[next marlin]

I kind of dig that neolycan is a global misreg but game ending abilities are more of a pain

[minor pier]

Can't be worse than a Mez-turned or BH-turned NWM.

[tardy wyvern]

if i ran a script with new lycan and anything that ends the game, I would rule that you can't lycan misreg to game enders

[tardy wyvern]

the former of these is at the very least a good play from evil that won them the game

rather than an objectively bad interaction

[lucid crag]

(The nightwatchman is good tho, so you pick a good player as Klutz and lose)

[fast anchor]

Neolycan misregisters to the Mathematician

[next marlin]

Never mind it's the worst thing ever because it desecrates Math's holy status

[fast anchor]

I KNOW RIGHT

it's awful

[next marlin]

Once we fix that though it'll be fine

[minor pier]

Lycan and Math already was a thorny combo

[fast anchor]

I actually liked it quite a bit

since the Math can help confirm who's actually a Lycanthrope and who's bluffing

[lucid crag]

It would feel like a heretic loss

in theory

hidden heretic loss

not outed heretic

[next marlin]

As opposed to all of those super loud heretics who scream it on d1

[gray ridge]

Or add may to its wording

[tardy wyvern]

heretic klutz new lycan and nightwatchman. klutz is d1 executed and picks the good nightwatchman, who registers as evil due to lycan. but since theres a heretic, good still wins

[fast anchor]

I had a Heretic Grandchild who did this d1

They were the ND poisoning me 💀

[minor pier]

Don't get me started on Heretic, I really don't like it outside of gimmick "stormcaught Damsel"&co scripts

[tardy wyvern]

heretic is one of the characters of all time

and i think needs to be run with genuine preparation in mind

[next marlin]

I once saw a game end d1 because the fearmonger picked the cannibal, who the cerenovus made mad as the goblin, in a heretic game

[lucid crag]

game enders + heretic is always rough

[tardy wyvern]

your group needs to be like mentally prepared for a heretic game

and understand that heretic is super overcentralizing

[sour harness]

🙋

[next marlin]

That makes sense

[sour harness]

I think displaced global misreg is cool but it should be on an outsider, not a tf

[sour harness]

Bro I claim off script juggler and get people's hard claims

It works

Not every time ofc

But it's not a one off thing either

[next marlin]

Some people don't look at scripts man

[minor pier]

Can't upvote this enough. Cue Outsiders being open on Fang Gu scripts.

[next marlin]

I think people play non-snv fang gu scripts weirdly unlike snv

Probably because customs tend to have very arbitrary outsider mod suites

[sour harness]

The real way too string along a lunatic is for the luna to not remember that they're on the script

[barren zenith]

What is the typical way that outsiders play in SnV from your experience

Usually, they just out D1 and try to die within seconds

[sour harness]

In mine it's "claim outsider loudly except if you're me"

[next marlin]

If there's an approximate default it's as hiding for a little while then coming out in the mid-late game after solving "it's not Fang Gu or someone else got jumped"

[sour harness]

Moreso when they've been pithagged

[next marlin]

(or outing when they die, especially if they die at night)

Different outsiders are a little different

Klutz tends to be loudest

Some people will suicide as an outsider d1 but this tends to be "I'm a good kill for today" rather than outing

[sour harness]

(and then they're the SH)

I've heard the klutz say "who wants to go gambling??"

[next marlin]

I am of the opinion that a d1 klutz execution is worse than hard vortox checking

Assuming a void (i.e. neither the chance of vortox nor the chance of klutzpicking an evil are above or below base rates) a klutzpick is statistically somewhat worse and the upside of a klutzpick (learning a player is starting good) is way worse than the upside of a hard vortox check (learning a game is not starting vortox)

You can pithag-jump somebody, you can never retroactively make d1 info vortoxed

The reason this isn't oppressive in real games is because STs habitually run vortox more if their towns are too vortox check happy, but in individual games if you're considering a d1 klutz execution due to lack of other leads it's basically always an awful idea

If you're afraid of a fang gu jump just let the fang gu jump to the outed outsider :)

[tacit fiber]

🤷 it is what it is

go to next game

[sour harness]

But it could be what it isn't!

[austere steppe]

Old lycan and new lycan just are not fun characters to play with (opinion). Im sure some find the power fantasy fun to play as, but lycan games are like professor or exorcist, and sailor on a lleach script - their existence is more to give evil outs than anything intrinsically interesting to the character themselves.

Ontopic, New lycan should evil-ness should only register to the lycan imo.

[barren zenith]

I think it will likely be changed to that

[zenith lotus]

the whole, "someone registers as evil to everyone" is really cool tbh, but i dont think its the best on lycan

maybe they'll work the concept into an outsider or minion or something

[sour harness]

It's gotta be an outsider right

[austere steppe]

I could see it on a minion in a high info/interaction script

[sour harness]

Maybe? But that feels like something that needs a voice

[lucid crag]

recluse 😁

[gray ridge]

Recluse but puzzlemaster ish

Theres a speculated character that does this I think

[lucid crag]

I think it wouldn't have any less problems than current lycan tho

[gray ridge]

||someone misregisters and if they guess who their team wins||

[lucid crag]

would still ruin klutz life lol

[lucid crag]

that's wild

[gray ridge]

I dont have a problem with lycan misregistering, I just think they should add a might to the wording so stuff like klutz doesnt lose the game

[lucid crag]

might would be good yeah

then players can blame st when they body the klutz

lmao

[zenith lotus]

||thats an evil player registering as good||

[ivory ridge]

you blame the script maker because klutz lycan is diabolical

[sharp violet]

This sounds jinx-worthy tbh

Or that registration rules get a minor clarification

[young sonnet]

or just make the misregistration only apply to the lycan like a sane human being

[sharp violet]

Yea I think that's fine too

I really do like the Lycan having a Red Herring for themselves

[hollow oasis]

TPI says you can register it how you want

[sharp violet]

I'm indifferent to the global reg thing though

[young sonnet]

Where?

[hollow oasis]

(to anything)

i think it was Jams

[supple dirge]

#experimental-chat message

[young sonnet]

Oh I thought they meant register it how you want to everything, not just win con abilities

I knew that

But thank you for finding it

[foggy grotto]

I feel like we should have signed my petition: https://forms.gle/Qm3xS9w5NBByZE5p7

[lucid crag]

This petition is my personal goal: https://forms.gle/6VkHudpXtgvJkjqm8

[hollow oasis]

Absolutely

(It’s thematically consistent)

[sharp violet]

11/8 If you made a petition about this game, what would it call for?

[young sonnet]

The Lycan personal red herring one

[barren zenith]

Vortox + poppygrower

[young sonnet]

If not that, TPI script tool support for homebrew characters

So I don't have to do shitty Photoshop

[sour harness]

Poppy grower in general

[hollow oasis]

It’ll get fixed yall

Relax

Trust in the TPI

[turbid granite]

i want another math-like character muahahaha

[hollow oasis]

I want Mathematician to have a wincon lol

[turbid granite]

math-like as in seemingly arbitrary numbers that no one uses but can solve games every once in a while

[hollow oasis]

Mathematician should win if it gets a sober and healthy number

(ST decides)

[sour harness]

Math is super powerful on snv, it's just hard to learn how to use lol

[hollow oasis]

Math:

[turbid granite]

100% i want one thats harder

[hollow oasis]

Learn how many people suffered false info/ability failure

[turbid granite]

unguessable amne level difficult to interpret

[next marlin]

Each night, learn a number that the ST thinks symbolizes something useful about the game

[sharp violet]

69

[next marlin]

Clocktower After Dark

[fast anchor]

The removal of Poppy Grower 🥳 🥳

[sharp violet]

To put some of the games that they storytell for Demon-level patrons on YouTube

[ivory ridge]

good be a good number to meant that the harlot is good LOL

or if not, there's a SW in game

[dense hound]

or virgin is a bluff

[flat lintel]

I have a question

How are these petitions reaching TPI?

[hollow oasis]

they

read these threads

(or someone sends it to them)

[zenith lotus]

magic

obviously 😉

[flat lintel]

Yeah, but why am I signing a petition and the names aren't being sent over to TPI?

[turbid granite]

one must trust in the petition to do its work

[indigo osprey]

Vortox poisoner interaction

[foggy grotto]

hey that’s crazy https://forms.gle/Qm3xS9w5NBByZE5p7

[lucid crag]

we as a people are scared of pinging ben burns about our petitions of jinxes out of fear he will roast us /j

[dusky minnow]

On that note, does the zealot also have to vote for exiles or no?

[barren zenith]

!role zealot

[barren zenith]

I'd assume not

But idk

[hollow oasis]

No

[next marlin]

No, exiles are never affected by abilities

Butler can vote freely on exiles, as can dead players

[turbid granite]

for the sake of the petition lets meet halfway and force them not to

[sour harness]

-# except deviant

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: If you had to change what base script one character is on, what would you swap where? None of this "the scripts are perfect the way they are", I mean you have to, it's necessary. For bonus points, if you made a direct swap between two roles, what would it be?

[sharp violet]

If I had to swap 2 maybe Empath Seamstress

[next marlin]

The first half is easy enough for me -- Dreamer is really a role designed for TB, not SnV. The whole outsider and minion suite of the script makes Dreamer info less gamebreaking in much the same way it does e.g. Undertaker info, because it's exactly the kind of role that wants a lot of info-arbitrariness baked in like TB's other ongoing info does. If a wrong n1 dream is easily a poisonsnipe or a Recluse, if the dreamer themselves can be drunk, if the role's super heavy confirmation potential is easy for at least some evil teams to bluff, and if it's difficult to mechanically determine when you've killed minions or even the demon, the role works significantly better. SnV's heavy-duty-pure-disruption minions and its super specific misinfo suite work well with most of the townsfolk and not with Undertaker For Living Players.

But TB is very tight, and nothing swaps

[tall raft]

Dreamer and empath

Would be my swap

[signal holly]

nah

[lucid crag]

easy, I'd put zombuul on sects and violets and fang gu on bad moon rising

[signal holly]

Empath is a character that just does not work without huge amounts of misinformation

Empath would immediately be the strongest townsfolk on S&V

it really needs Drunk and Recluse and Spy and Poisoner to keep it in check

[sharp violet]

Nah, breaks snv but not for that reason

[lucid crag]

I really think zombuul pairs great with vortox and oracles ability to track dead evils. The fang gu has pretty great ways to hide with goon and tinker not to mention its great pairing with godfather.

[lucid crag]

I'd consider dreamer and investigator, though not sure

[next marlin]

Invest fundamentally does not work with snvlike minions

It's intended to hint what's in play on a quiet minion script

[sharp violet]

Empath on TB primarily works because there's low interlacing trust for it

[gray ridge]

Soldier and fool maybe idk

[lucid crag]

tbf I forgot about evil twin when thinking of putting invest on snv

[gray ridge]

Fool nominating virgin is kinda funny

[lucid crag]

lol

[gray ridge]

Ig you cant bluff protection

So probably not a very good idea

[tardy wyvern]

I don’t think anything on bmr works on either other b3 script bc of how death centric they all are

[sharp violet]

SnV's Demons are enough misinfo to counteract Empath, it has a different problem of the info being backed up by the other TF too easily

[next marlin]

Vigor/empath has uh the vigor/clockmaker problem

"whoops one demon doesn't really have any counterplay lol"

[lucid crag]

what about a dreamer virgin swap?

[sharp violet]

Vigor Empath is great wym

Like Vigor's existence makes Empath gaining more info through neighbors being nightkilled sussable

[next marlin]

Ehhh kind of yeah

If they're next to you though you're just turbofucked

[sharp violet]

Yea

[lucid crag]

Snv + virgin makes a virgin exe bluffable right?

[sharp violet]

Other issue is Vortox is a fake threat on SnV

[lucid crag]

since it could be a madness exe

[next marlin]

Technically cere can yes but it's ridiculous and does it 2000000x worse than spy

[lucid crag]

cere mads themself and noms demon and explodes, idk lol

[next marlin]

It's a strategy

It's just a meme strat 98% of the time

[sharp violet]

Yeah

[lucid crag]

I guess virgin on snv is a bit tragic with twins, nvm

[next marlin]

Especially given snv has roles such as "town crier" and "oracle"

[lucid crag]

well, its a hard check at least

[next marlin]

Like half of why the meme strat doesn't work is that spy is a spent minion and cere is one of the least frontloaded minions in the game, but the other half is that spy regs as good and cere does not

[gray ridge]

Looking here I think the only BMR character that could fit the other base 3 is chambermaid

[sharp violet]

Base 3 doesn't have good swaps tbh. There's some swaps that are like low damage but not super interesting

[lucid crag]

cere could mad the other minion

lol

[next marlin]

Witch or whatever still doesn't reg good

Kind of funny though

[sharp violet]

I feel Chambermaid might've been something that was tested for SnV but didnet make the final cut

Has anyone actually analyzed Math's power level in BMR?

[tardy wyvern]

I’d swap vortox and imp

[lucid crag]

I think virgin being nommed by mutant and mutant having to explain why it didn't work is very funny btw

[tardy wyvern]

Heehee

[gray ridge]

Chambermaid Math swap could be interesting

[lucid crag]

well virgin is a fair bit less useful on snv since on tb it proves the people it exes aren't drunk but on snv vortox among other poisons still exist, + no monk or anything to save it after it procs

still strong tho

but if it's replacing dreamer it's like a fairish trade

[sharp violet]

Maybe swap Saint and Klutz?

[sour harness]

Stole it from me

Math on bmr

Very cool

[next marlin]

Cere/Saint is an interaction and Vigor/Cere/Saint is even more of one

And wait pithag makes that even worse

[hollow oasis]

[sharp violet]

Ah, I forgot about Cere

[fast anchor]

oooh CM <--> Math sounds fun

you've got FG/TC/Oracle as demon bluffs and Vortox is like Zombuul in how it blunts it

[next marlin]

flowergirl/tc/oracle are already the most bluffcoded roles on the script which I always found meta-funny with chambermaid

(I have a related "inexplicably fits chambermaid" longstanding observation that Mathematician is exactly a Cerenovus bluff, no other roles bluff it)

[sly crescent]

(Artist and Gossip) or (Seamstress and Librarian)

not perfect but viable ways of evicting/decoupling Artstress from SnV

[fast anchor]

wait why does lib on s&v go kinda hard

the only rough patches are (a) if someone coldcalls you they're almost always good and (b) if the lib gets its conf off it slashes vortox worlds to those where you're evil together

and these are also problems dreamer faces on s&v sooooo

[sly crescent]

vortox/baron worlds have kinda same crude temporary solution - drunk/mutant ping

[dense hound]

I'd love to switch mastermind and evil twin but the 0 deaths at night in snv is so rare it feels like it wouldnt work

and 1 minion evil twin bmr would be rough too

[fresh shard]

Lunatic and Butler. Lunatic has the Mayor as an additional explanation for why kills go to the wrong place and additional info the Spy can use to figure out whether to string the Lunatic along, while BMR has more reasons to not policy execute outsiders.

I can see an argument for swapping Chambermaid and Dreamer aswell -- Dreamer has more reasons for the info to be nonsense on day 1, and Chambermaid's information is still strong but less instantly confirmable

[barren zenith]

Lunatic to plague doctor on BMR

I don't like lunatic on BMR, they always figure it out on day 1

[sour harness]

"ysk it's vigor" :(

I guess it's vigor OR vortox but like cmon

[flat lintel]

Dreamer and Chef

[sour harness]

vati whyd you react with oracle, you're the one saying "oracle 1 n2 = you learn it is 1 of 4 demons"

[next marlin]

Yes but the no dashii world is going to be niche and sometimes the oracle is next to your damn demon anyway, and the fang gu world fundamentally doesn't work because it still involves being outed evil, it's just whether you're outed as a demon or a minion

It's possible to work around and a bag that leans into the vortox paranoia can go well but the play patterns it encourages aren't great because it makes early vigorkills so much riskier

So it encourages reactive play over proactive which is really bad for snv evil in general and vigor in particular

[fast anchor]

me when the lib is evil and it's actually a dashii game and the mutant can't come out to expose the bluffer as evil because it's the mutant

yeah same w vortox

[sour harness]

idk i might break mutant madness there

depends on player count

unless im scared of fang gu (which i am)

[sour harness]

[thyme isn't reel]: what's a token you wish you pulled more often?

i recently pulled legion for the first* time and it was super fun (i was the poppygrown lunatic)
-# *on, like, a real script

[next marlin]

A lot of evil tokens apply to this, but grim peekers (Spy/Widow) in particular

[cursive cobalt]

Savant

Also Spy/Widow

I like knowing things

And those roles allow me to mastermind from the getgo

[next marlin]

Same, I love constructing horrific intricate plans that don't work in the end

[sour harness]

i got spy recently, that was fun

i got the SW librarian confirmed

[lean isle]

Same with Grim peekers. Or just Minions in general.

[sour harness]

-# and then the mostly outed imp didnt starpass to them after we tied her off the block in f4 :augh:

[sour harness]

i also did pull bona fide legion for the first time recently, and that was a ton of fun. too bad we got 2 (of 3) good players executed in the first 3 days and the game didn't last as long as it otherwise could've

[vale oxide]

GOSSIP

[foggy grotto]

politician (i’ve never drawn it once)

[supple dirge]

Pit hag, I want to just wreck any script that has pit hag on it.

[sharp violet]

Butler

I keep getting Recluse and being in Investigator pings

[zenith lotus]

lleech

[gray ridge]

psycho

[zenith lotus]

11/11: What’s the best script? (wrong answers only)

[sharp violet]

Stormcatcher Favors the Damsel

[sour harness]

JANK JANK JANK JANK

TwV

[zenith lotus]

i said wrong answers only smh

😉

[sour harness]

nO

[hollow oasis]

this

[next marlin]

[insert least favourite base 3 here]

(I think I don't actually have a least favourite b3 because I haven't played enough bmr to be confident in my sample, but I considered answering tb for purposes)

[turbid granite]

any tb variant

[sour harness]

Bro go play bmr

We may both be SnV heads but BMR is a ton of fun too

[next marlin]

I have played bmr twice, leading to the following games:

1. godfather kills me n2, ST accidentally announces me as the innkeeper when telling town ("the inn has closed down because the innkeeper suffered a heart attack"), prof rezzes me and has ludicrously wrong world and we lose to po charge
2. insanely cursed pukka game with 1 demon kill ever, I'm the fool who insta-dies when executed and solves pukka and no one believes me ever because the chambermaid thinks his info is right, exo who everyone is tunnelled is evil (sailor moment) thinks I'm demon with a mastermind, we win anyway

The first game was pretty fun though

[fast anchor]

S&V

[next marlin]

you push it and I will answer bmr

[hollow oasis]

TB

also every script with +2-3 extra evils +heretic

very balanced

[sour harness]

Play more bmrrrrrrrr

It's fun

[hollow oasis]

bmr is good

snv is good

tb is bad

let me solve the bloody gamestate

without low info/everyone is drunk

[severe raven]

I don't want to call TB "bad" because it's good as an intro to the game but... yeah

[hollow oasis]

as an intro?

sure

as a player?

not fun

[agile sigil]

then my friend

you have reached the "I have played a medium amount" stage

tb is actually a great game purely because it is so balanced

sure is it socials? yeah but all good social deduction games rely on that to a degree

[hollow oasis]

i've played at least 350 games

(i really just hate poisoner)

ngl

[tacit fiber]

Bad Moon Rising

[tacit fiber]

bmr....is.... good?

[hollow oasis]

yes

i just hate tb's info landscape

[tacit fiber]

[hollow oasis]

and?

[tacit fiber]

ok so now I can't play BMR with 90% of sts

[hollow oasis]

i like pacifist

[hollow oasis]

that's fair

i'll give you that

[tacit fiber]

with an experienced st, I agree

but like, I can't guraentee that

and most sts don't know how to storytell pacifist

[hollow oasis]

pacifist shalt not

help evil

save things that can become evil

don't save goons

plz

[tacit fiber]

well

I disgaree

it depends on the situation

[tacit fiber]

mfw

[sour harness]

Yeah saving a goon can be the right call

It usually isn't, but it can be

[hollow oasis]

ok

fair

(godfather is fair)

although even saving a goon is sometimes worse than GF

[sour harness]

Sometimes yeah

But if the po has charged and there's 7 alive

Maybe you save the goon

(by maybe I mean definitely)

[hollow oasis]

ok

fine

pacifist saves shouldn't help evil

there

simple

easy

[sour harness]

Wow, I never thought of that one

[sour harness]

I think that while this is true, it's easy to misunderstand when a paci save helps evil

If the paci isn't certain that it's from their own ability, then it helped evil

[hollow oasis]

(then save twice)

ngl

[sour harness]

The neighboring evil player claiming tea lady:

[turbid granite]

i think a lot of the reason people dont like bmr is that its much easier to ST in a not-fun way without making any rule mistakes, theres also the variance in game length but that can also be mitigated to some extent by Running It Good which is somewhat abstract and situational at times

still my favorite base script, partly because i know people wholl ST it good

[tardy wyvern]

BMR is the base 3 my group usually struggles with the most mainly because it’s very easy to get confused in the amount of death happening each night

it’s also a script good players need to be open and honest about their characters on

[sour harness]

Running It Good is an important part of any script (even TB). But that applies to every game or game-adjacent thing that involves a person running it

[tardy wyvern]

otherwise town will never solve

[sour harness]

Any ttrpg is gonna go poorly if the GM doesn't know how to run it well

[tardy wyvern]

that is true but BMR is a lot easier to mess up in my experience

both in genuine rules mistakes and poor decisions

[tacit fiber]

ok but what "helps evil"

like

[tardy wyvern]

SNV also needs to be handled delicately though

[tacit fiber]

sometimes it's not understood

[sour harness]

Aaaaand that question is why people complain about pacifist. That is not an easy question to answer

[tacit fiber]

I complain bc 99% of storytellers don't know that question

[hollow oasis]

fair enough

i mean

[tacit fiber]

I can confidently storytell and BMR as a whole

[hollow oasis]

(it's genuinely harder on BMR)

[tacit fiber]

I don't play BMR much tho

[next marlin]

"nah, clockmaker every game regardless of player count or setup" -average ST

[tardy wyvern]

the main pacifist thing i see is saving players that town is building as evil

which objectively wastes town’s time bc town will instantly think they’re da protected

[hollow oasis]

i have a script where pacifist is only exe survival

and DA/Alch DA exists

but yea...

[sour harness]

That's very situational. Yeah it can hurt town a whole lot to save them, but if they're explicitly being pacifist tested it'll usually hurt more to let them die

[austere steppe]

I dislike how much agency STs have on BMR. SNV gets player agency and ST direction just right.

[hollow oasis]

that's fair

[sour harness]

-# i made this just now lol

[young sonnet]

God DAMN

Bro had that locked and loaded

[sour harness]

i saw a vision and had to follow through

[young sonnet]

Opinion dead on impact

[hollow oasis]

lmao

ooooooooooooooooof

[sour harness]

bmr does have decisions but it's not to the same extent imo

[hollow oasis]

it's a different type of decision

[sour harness]

gossip and paci are probably the only consistent ones with a major impact

[hollow oasis]

gossip kills are different from vortox info

sailor?

[young sonnet]

mfw the ST has to understand how sailor/pacifict work, pick a grandchild, an IK drunk, a gossip kill, and when to kill the Tinker:

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-black-guy-gif-5750196720983083288

[hollow oasis]

oh

did i forget to mention remember that assasain goon is an interaction

[young sonnet]

The Humble Savant:

https://tenor.com/view/muscle-black-guy-funny-walk-on-my-way-mad-gif-17251597

(genuinely, giving balanced Savant statements for high-level players is harder than all the ST agency in BMR combined)

[hollow oasis]

Truth

[sour harness]

also sorry for dogpiling on this lol

[young sonnet]

I don't think it's dogpiling

you were the only one who said something

[hollow oasis]

it's discussion

lmao

[young sonnet]

And then I said you were right

and Legion thought it was funny

[fast anchor]

cool, save them twice

[austere steppe]

I dunno man, I think only cero matters in that list. I personally don't care about any info in snv. Only thing that matters is if it's good.

Understanding who has bad info is more important to what that info is to winning snv.

[tacit fiber]

If you save them twice evil can just won at times given that wastes so much time

[sour harness]

Nah a double tap is stronger than a single execution killing

Saving once and not the double tap IS a waste of time tho

[foggy grotto]

11/12: Thoughts on the new Riot ability and jinxes?

[sour harness]

Love it

[turbid granite]

new riot (& in a way the new levi jinxes) are amazing

[tardy wyvern]

yeah new riot is a strict improvement

i think it would be fun if the nomination phase was still the same as before all 3 days but i do get why it had to change

and it makes for funnier jumpscares

[barren zenith]

So much better, good doesn't even know it's a riot, which will lead to extremely panic-inducing day 3s

[fresh shard]

I like it, but hoping for some clarification on what happens if the Riot day fails to go off, or jinxes/clarifications to prevent the good team being able to engineer this situation (possibly just scriptbuilding issue)

[lean isle]

Looks really interesting and certainly better.

[gray ridge]

Very cool

[minor pier]

Much better on all aspects ; having access to Minions abilities is a big help for balance, and it meshes way better with nominations/executions-based effects for the early game.

[tacit fiber]

ability love it jinxes

...

horrible

[hollow oasis]

Alot of them don’t work

[next marlin]

[time]: What roles on the base scripts do you think many STs use too often? Not often enough?

A lot of people in snv use clockmaker super heavily (because they don't realize how strong it is) and mathematician rarely (because they're not comfortable running it), ime

In tb poisoner can feel kind of hegemonic sometimes (and drunk but that's more understandable)

[ebon idol]

Use as in bag wise?

[next marlin]

Yes

[ebon idol]

Poisoner I can definitely agree, same with drunk

imp /j

It’s kind of the inverse but zombuul and especially mastermind imo is heavily underrepresented in Bmr games I see

Which like.. yeah fair

But still

Same with evil twin, cere is probably overrepresented

Definitely see a lot goons

[fast anchor]

I don't tend to see many Professors in BMR

like yes, it's strong, but it's also a character on the script

[barren zenith]

I don't see vigor nearly as much as the other demons on SnV

[vale oxide]

Savant is in 85 percent of SnV games I play/ST

(made up number :p)

[next marlin]

I feel like people put savant in the bag either 0% or 100% of the time

[vale oxide]

True

[flat lintel]

Yeah

Running Savant live without it breaking the game is a flex

[hollow oasis]

Latter is me

[sterile flame]

I have had it in exactly twice

out of maybe 10-15 games

[sour harness]

Butler professor witch never go in the bag

[sterile flame]

too often drunk

not enough zombuul

[sterile flame]

I never understand witch and butler

both great characters

[sour harness]

People think butler is boring, and that witch is weak

Butler is cool but I'll admit the other TB outsiders are even cooler

And I've seen a witch almost singlehandedly win a game

[sterile flame]

my response about witch is just lol get better

the threat of it is powerful enough

[sterile flame]

drunk is way over done

I like saint and recluse

the only weak b3 minion is mastermind, cause it requires very specific situations to work

[sour harness]

I'd say it's reasonably strong

[sterile flame]

comparitively

[sour harness]

It's a safety minion with a wincon that's not even that difficult to achieve

[sterile flame]

i still think b3 minions are the strongest set of minions

[sour harness]

Yeah for the most part

[hollow oasis]

Goblin

Boomdandy

Those are pretty good

But yea

Organ grinder is not that op

Fearmonger is bad

It would be better if it had its ability without the announcement

Or at least, only at the second change

[sterile flame]

hard disagree with goblin and fearmonger

[hollow oasis]

Goblin is good

[sterile flame]

goblin is worse than boomdandy, but still above the rest of the experimentals

boomdandy by far is the best there

[hollow oasis]

Goblin is equal to Boomdandy

now

[sterile flame]

and fearmonger is actually not that bad

[hollow oasis]

(Goblin is good for the reason mario is good)

[sterile flame]

just very easy to move around

[hollow oasis]

fearmonger shouldn’t be so fucking loud

[sterile flame]

it has to be

[hollow oasis]

Until the second change

(It shouldn’t be announced at the start, only if they change again)

[sterile flame]

i've seen a fearmonger come about 3 seconds away from victory before the EVIL Gunslinger shot their own demon

yes correct, evil

[sterile flame]

well, if you have a fearmonger on your script, bootleg that rule if you want

[sour harness]

Fearmonger only WORKS because it's loud

[sterile flame]

its only purpose is to monger fear lol

[hollow oasis]

I mean, I’d rather it be like OG

[sour harness]

It's called fearmonger, the threat of the win is more important than the win itself

[sterile flame]

another incredibly noisy minion?

[hollow oasis]

a noisy minion

With ways to hide

[young sonnet]

Did they think there was a heretic?

[sour harness]

So let it choose nobody?

[sterile flame]

this was before the release of heretic

[hollow oasis]

(That’s why I’m saying the first choice shouldn’t be loud)

[sterile flame]

they came into town saying they'd shoot a saint claim

[hollow oasis]

Second on? Sure

like, you have 1 player you need to kill

By exe

Or you have to be loud

[young sonnet]

And they committed to the bit even after learning the Demon?

[sour harness]

I mean if it chooses a player with no announcement that feels like it fundamentally goes against the character

[sterile flame]

yep..

I was a minion that game and felt so cheated

[sour harness]

But being able to not choose until later might be cool

[young sonnet]

Please tell me it was at least like a 7 player game

[hollow oasis]

I mean, it’s easier to monger fear with smth like legion

[sterile flame]

15

[young sonnet]

I—

[sterile flame]

i mean sure, except for the mechanical impossibilities

[hollow oasis]

Yall make scripts with mechanical impossibilities?

[sterile flame]

oh, and there were 12 votes on the fearmonger picked player, THE GAME WAS LITERALLY ABOUT TO END

[hollow oasis]

(Why i hate travellers in a nutshell)

Shit like this

[sour harness]

Nah that's not a traveler issue, that's a player hard throwing

[hollow oasis]

I keep seeing it happen

With just

[sour harness]

Evil travelers KNOW who not to kill

[hollow oasis]

“Fuck it lol i can leave”

[sour harness]

Then why'd they travel in in the first place lol

[sterile flame]

they came late and wanted to play...

[sour harness]

If they're not gonna care about the game

[sterile flame]

oh I have done some magnificent things as a traveller

[hollow oasis]

(This is the reason some people actually travel in)

[young sonnet]

Like, I've done something similar, I was about to win a Secret Hitler game as a Fascist cause I had the gun in the final round, no one knew what I was, and I was pretending to not know who Hitler was and bet the game on a coinflip, which I lost and then shot Hitler because I was with 7 other close friends and the game was only 40 minutes long at that point
BUT THAT WAS ONLY CAUSE I KNEW THEY'D FIND IT FUNNY. Like wtaf is that guy doing. That's 15 people, who've likely been playing for 2 to 2.5 hours. To just rob their climax "for the bit" is actually vile

[sterile flame]

including executing the puzzle drunk player before they could learn any info

[sterile flame]

it was D2

it was a bit dude what the hell, but no emotional attatchment yet

[young sonnet]

Day 2 FM win? Never heard of it

[sterile flame]

thats why it was going to be so good

[tardy wyvern]

for me it's gambler strangely enough

i think every single time ive played as good on bmr i was the gambler

[sour harness]

I've been a grandmother to a gambler thrice in a row

[tardy wyvern]

i have gambler confirmed a moonchild twice in my like, 4 games as gambler, which is a very specific thing to happen more than once

[sterile flame]

i have seen twin marionette gamblers

in the same game

one was the apprentice

[fast anchor]

TB:
overrepresented: Empath, Drunk, Poisoner

underrepresented: Soldier, Butler, Spy

BMR:
overrepresented: Gambler, Godfather (+1), DA, Po

underrepresented: Minstrel, Prof, Pacifist, Godfather (-1), Zombuul, Pukka

S&V:
overrepresented: Clockmaker, Flowergirl (online), Mutant, Pit-Hag, Fang Gu

underrepresented: Dreamer, Mathematician, Sweetheart, Evil Twin, Vigormortis

[tardy wyvern]

I don't think in my time playing clocktower, not just BMR, I have ever seen a godfather -1

[indigo osprey]

I did it once

evil team didn't realize until after the game that this meant they coul bluff outsider

[sour harness]

The first bmr game I ran was gf-1 lol

[sour harness]

Nooooo

[tardy wyvern]

I wanted to do gf-1 in the only BMR game I’ve ever ran but it ended up being base 0 outsiders

[gray ridge]

I played as godfather -1 on tuesday

It was godfather -1 balloonist +1 fang gu +1 on base 2 outsiders

[next marlin]

Yeah gf-1 is common on customs with convoluted outsider mod to prevent 9p games with 4 or 5 outsiders

I had a player get a little annoyed once at an fg+1/gf-1 at 8p but the grim technically could've produced +2 evils (I was not good at bagbuilding then) so I pointed this out to him and he admitted it was "probably not goodsided"

(but also I was not good at bagbuilding then)

[next marlin]

Just get good

[next marlin]

Witch's problem in snv is that the threat of it requires significantly more gamewarping minions not be in play

And its volume makes it quite easy to work out by extension that these minions are not in play

It can also be counterplayed in ways that accentuate its "negative utility minion" failure mode (players who are trusted or like their roles nominating much less, meaning the witch basically only kills evil candidates by accident)

Its ceiling is really cool but it's high-variance even for an snv minion (which are all, inherently, by design, crazy high variance) and it tends to operate much closer to its floor

[next marlin]

I feel like dreamers are more common than flowergirls though

[fast anchor]

I think GF-1 should be done, like, half the time on BMR and on most customs

[fast anchor]

In my experience people don't want to put Dreamers in the bag because they snipe evils n1 like every time

[next marlin]

Not true, it's only 90%

[fast anchor]

like

[next marlin]

Dreamer 'looks' overrepresented on tokens to me but I think about 80% of that is actually philo-dreamers

(philo definitely feels overrepresented)

[zenith lotus]

i dont see a lot of librarians in TB

like, ever

its kind of sad 😦

[sour harness]

I keep making them drunk lol

[next marlin]

Librarians are common but librarians seeing roles other than drunk are much rarer (understandably enough, it's really two different roles)

[next marlin]

this was an actual classic though, best judge game I've ever seen

it's why that script has mathematician now 💀

[acoustic chasm]

I feel like if Fearmonger was silent, it still would cause fear.

Its still on script

People are worried that it might be in play and cause people to lose

[hollow oasis]

this is how i would make fearmonger less bad

[acoustic chasm]

I had a fearmonger adjacent homebrew

Fearmonger (Minion) - Each night, you may choose a player: they learn you are in play. If the most recently chosen player is executed, their team loses.

[hollow oasis]

"Each night, choose a player: if you nominate & execute them, their team loses. After the first time you pick a new player, all players learn when you pick a new player."

[acoustic chasm]

but yee

[dense moat]

Weirdly enough, this is definitely correct for Soldier. I feel like I never put it in bags

And I usually mix stuff up