#secret thing

1 messages · Page 15 of 1

sly crescent
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i think maybe snv and seamstress? don't really hate on many base chars they have their purpose, only sometimes artist really can do very similar thing better

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for other scripts Saint and [forbidden] probably

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but only because ptsd losing to the abilities

flat lintel
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WHAT

vale oxide
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👆 grandma is my second favourite TF to play on BMR

zenith lotus
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lol

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i will say, im not just talking about BMR

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i can count on one hand the number of times i’ve seen grandmother work on customs

fast anchor
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really? I see Grandmother a fair bit

zenith lotus
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the only ones i can think of off the top of my head are catfishing and lunar eclipse

fast anchor
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off the top of my head:

  • Broken Circles
  • Catfishing
  • Star Pass All Stars
  • Darkest Before Dawn
  • Lunar Eclipse
  • Ramsay Street
  • Uncertain Death
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And that's not counting the scripts I've made

zenith lotus
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okay i’ve never heard of most of those

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so maybe i need to search the script engine some more

fast anchor
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oh and I forgot With Greater Power

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that ones a classic (bh turned grandma 🤩)

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and Separation of Church and State

fast anchor
flat lintel
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Grandma is so fun with demon mind games

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Which is the first

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its a pain, but necessary. agreed

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Agree, those are mine too. I forget about the Butler thing because normally, I don’t have a vote restriction so sometimes I might accidentally mess up with that which is frustrating and unfun for others and me.

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Soldier because I just sit there for 2 hours and do like basically nothing. Like I have no way of clearing myself and if the Demon somehow finds out (spy etc.), Im not dying. The only interesting thing is if I die at night. Also its so easy for a Monk bluff to ruin my soldier

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MAYOR!! what??? I need an explanation

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Agree, Lunatic sucks in BMR

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lame storytelling

dense hound
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I don't like innkeeper

sly crescent
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the number of times it complicates info for very little benefit is comparable to sailor, but i still like it. makes the game interesting

flat lintel
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agree

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Innkeeper draws are funny

foggy grotto
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for me it’s definitely

TB: Mayor
BMR: Fool
SnV: Flowergirl

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wait i forgot about sailor

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i hate sailor

young sonnet
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What's wrong with FG

tall raft
barren zenith
zenith lotus
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original prompt:

barren zenith
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Ty

sour harness
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TB: invest
BMR: fool?
SnV: klutz???

barren zenith
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TB: butler (kinda boring to play as imo)
BMR: lunatic (always figures it out D1 on BMR specifically)
SnV: flowergirl (I don't like tracking votes and I've been it way too much)

sour harness
# sour harness TB: invest BMR: fool? SnV: klutz???

Invest: I don't find it fun to be on either side of a ping, or to get such a simple ping, or to execute based on the ping, or the fact that YSK it's a baron game is possible
Fool: meh
Klutz: I like it but SnV endgames are so fun and sometimes klutz means you don't see those

barren zenith
vale oxide
sour harness
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I just pray that the invest is poison sniped every time it's in the bag and not drunk

sour harness
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Which just makes it worse :D

gray ridge
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Soldier: As I said its just extremely boring, you sit there doing nothing until you get framed at some point. And even if you stop a demon kill the Monk will probably get the credit
Flowergirl: Very boring and rarely gets meaningful info, tracking the votes is not enjoyable. Good for hard vortox check when everyone votes and thats it. I would much rather be the Town Crier.
Courtier: Too swingy, and its also not fun to just be a Courtier-sniped Demon

foggy grotto
# young sonnet What's wrong with FG

it’s not fun to track, it’s not fun to bluff, but most importantly it can kinda go against the motto of the game that everyone can play as they like because lots of times town goes into this crazy vote-don’t vote mode that makes the game less fun, although not doing it is inoptimal

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so you either end up getting screwed over because town doesn’t vote good

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or you have to take over the voting and often yell over others to get them to vote or not

hollow oasis
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Fg being used twice (well) a game might be optimal

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It’s basically 2 artist questions

barren zenith
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And demon mobility

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Getting more than 1 day of optimal voting is extremely rare in my experience

hollow oasis
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Yea

austere steppe
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FG is a blank blue token for me on its base script. I don't see it too often outside of SNV either.

hollow oasis
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I’ve used it on 1 script

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But it is way more likely to get a yes than a no

austere steppe
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That being said, every townsfolk on SNV is largely irrelevant/replacable. You all get info, and the only thing to solve is "is my info droisoned".

hollow oasis
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(It’s on a legion script)

young sonnet
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I don't even know where to start breaking down that thought process

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It's just not worth it lmfao

gray ridge
fast anchor
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19/10: What's your favorite underrated custom script right now (that you didn't make)?

fiery finch
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Gary cooper

next marlin
flat lintel
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axo beat me to my qotd 😠

foggy grotto
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Social Strings by McGiggles is also quite fun but a very different vibe

fast anchor
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I do all the time

next marlin
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Mostly I see people play either really popular stuff (e.g. catfishing, hns, extension, tentacle reach, social strings) or their own scripts

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I don't play customs in general

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I haven't gotten to run or play it yet but The Final Nail in the Boffin is probably the custom I've had the most fun grimbuilding/seeing-how-to-run in quite a while and I want to try it for real at some point

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(and I think the only custom with a No Dashii I've had much fun doing that with at all)

foggy grotto
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i always thought i was cool and hip and non-mainstream

next marlin
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I see it an absolute ton in the lobbies so I classify it in that cluster

foggy grotto
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but was i just a conformist

next marlin
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The tb variants also go in that cluster but they're kind of an exception

foggy grotto
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TB except we add legion and vortox and mutant and ogre and heretic and poppygrower and oh whoops this isn’t TB

next marlin
fast anchor
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what's social strings?

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strings pulling?

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i hadn't heard of it before now

next marlin
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Very popular script on the app which is uh apparently not in botcscripts or any current lobbies

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(and I don't have it saved)

next marlin
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found it

Social_Strings_V2.2-1.png
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(I think this is the right version, kenoboi can confirm)

sour harness
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Mmmmmm cere baron with no minion mod

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A choice

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Cere + drunk is cool actually

next marlin
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It's a no dashii/baron/drunk custom which means I have ethical objections but it's popular and people like it

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I do find cere drunk interesting strategically

sour harness
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Oh right lol

next marlin
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(unfortunately people abandon cere strategy as soon as they see "haha funni goblin jinx")

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(which is why I don't like the jinx lol, it turns one of the most complex minions into a meme role)

sour harness
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Yeah

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Prob my least favorite jinx

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It does NOT need to exist

next marlin
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now cere mez,

sour harness
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I think

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I should make a joke script with a bootlegger rule that the cere can choose any character on script

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goblin mezepheles_mephit lleech as a start

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lil_monsta (jinx: it's that you're HOLDING the baby)

next marlin
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Vortox would be funny

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I get surprisingly many people claiming vortox

sour harness
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Behold! 4 silent minions: goblin mezepheles_mephit marionette summoner

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We need a silent demon so that summoner mastermind can be the silent minions they were always meant to be

next marlin
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Oh shit making people mad they're the marionette is brutal, I love it

sour harness
next marlin
sour harness
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You know what, if we add showman and tinker then yagga is reasonably quiet and those two can be "silent"

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Let's add boffin too

young sonnet
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That would be really funny

next marlin
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I would prefer "no evil role jinxes" but I'm considering the opportunities opened by cere marionette and they're fun

sour harness
sour harness
fast anchor
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every game I have either played of this or run of this

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has been absolute COMEDY

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and everyone's had a blast

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it was a world cup script that is tragically authorless

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if you want an actual good script then word around town's been mentioned here before and it's stellar, though i'd question if it's actually underrated despite it losing the botcu live script polls all the time

foggy grotto
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are you a sick individual

next marlin
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Cere is a really cool minion that has some of the most complex strategic space in the game and scripts with goblins tend to end up seeing it played as "randomly make 2-3 people mad as the goblin then die"

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Also being mad as the goblin is pretty lame

foggy grotto
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i disagree from a fun standpoint

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but i also love being ceremad in general so that could be me

next marlin
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Yeah goblin madness has the problem that if you already don't love trying to play around madness then it's an even worse shutdown than usual

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Which is inherently a problem for any cere/evil role jinx though cere/mario would be interesting for similar reasons to cere/drunk

barren zenith
digital drumBOT
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Gave +1 Thanks to @next marlin (current: #1067 - 11)

young sonnet
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If Cerenovii actually think that's the best way to use their ability they're just really dumb lol

next marlin
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I don't disagree

young sonnet
barren zenith
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PM + BH can be rough, but just don't make the bounty hunter puzzle-drunk

sharp violet
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I like dusk but it's not underrated

fast anchor
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because the LM doesn't actually get poisoned

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holy shit you might be right

sour harness
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It's also great with leviathan because you similarly can't verify it

lost thistle
sour harness
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It's a riot game guys

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Trust

sly crescent
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<t:1729498500:d> what's ur favourite question asked here

next marlin
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this mf thinks time is real, get him

sly crescent
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defense: i actually think it's an integer, mistrial pls

next marlin
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I like whenever the "hot takes/unpopular opinions" questions roll around, people get Posting about them

sour harness
supple dirge
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I don't know, have you ever seen an integer in real life?

next marlin
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[time isn't real]: Hardest ST decision you've ever made?

shrewd cloud
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Hardest of all time is hard, so guess for now I’ll mention a choice I had to make last night. The Pit-Hag turned themselves into the Puzzlemaster on N3 and it was so hard deciding where to put the puzzledrunkeness because of the gamestate

Ended up putting it on the Monk since while there was a Town Crier, them getting false info would actually implicate the Demon as evil in a LM world (which they still ended up almost getting executed over). Seems like it ended up being a fine decision since there just weren’t many options for that puzzledrunkeness and I wanted it to be useful for evil since the Pit-Hag willingly gave up their ability for it

next marlin
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I have roughly two tied answers for this

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#1: 14p TB (spy/baron/scarlet) with a mix of new players and veterans (the evil team were all new, because they always are). The demon was bluffing invest who saw scarlet between the mayor and the baron. This was an intentional attempt to frame the mayor, which backfired because the baron was socially outed minion -- with the consequence that town read the demon as the 100% confirmed investigator, because she saw an obvious minion. Both demon and mayor were trusted, and the game was pretty outed spy by early kill patterns.

In the late game, the demon switched from killing trusted info roles to killing the baron-confirmed outsiders and the empath in a drunk ping who was about to get info on her. Town read these as mayor bounces to the point of concluding there were 3-4 mayor bounces (there was one, which was the only kill for four nights that town didn't think was a bounce).

Demon hits the mayor for real going into f3. I know any call is a kingmake. If the mayor lives to f3, town will go for the mayor win. If they don't, town will execute the actual scarlet by overwhelming acclaim. Given town thinks there have been way more mayor bounces than there were (to the point of joking that I "can stop mayor bouncing at some point") and there was a sincere attempt to get the mayor off the board during the day that backfired for reasons outside what the demon could have predicted at the time, I take a deep breath and kill the mayor. Town wakes up on f3, sees the mayor is dead, and someone yells out "well, that makes it easier for us!". They full send on the scarlet.

Grim reveal was fun. It worked out.

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#2: 16p custom (v2 of #1271450696587149476 message, which had mez instead of poli and ww/lib instead of steward/shugenja), 14 residents and 2 travellers. One of the travellers is a good harlot. It's night 6 with 6 residents and the harlot alive; he's gotten I think two pieces of info, because I suck at killing harlots. Evil has had a strong lead for much of the game (mez-turned banshee, lots of town-on-town violence), but they've hit a dramatic reversal of fortune -- the info is hard narrowing down on the demon, and in a widow/mez/cere game where the kazali picked the plague doctor, there's no backup plan. There was also a n2 sweetheart proc and town has no clue where it is (it was the moonchild).

There is a living savant. She was ceremad for a few days, then lifted when the good judge slammed the seamstress (most helpful good judge), who has been hard tunnelled on her all game. She is hard tunnelled on him as exactly the Cerenovus. One of her previous days of info was essentially a juggler ping on five people as the cere, which included both him and the actual cere (still alive).

The harlot picks the cere, and he accepts. At the same time, he says he wants to make the savant mad again. This will mechanically hard confirm to her that the Seamstress is not the Cerenovus, which will essentially solve the game (worlds other than the correct one ~all involve one of them being evil). A harlot kill at this point will also speed up the game enough to lose a night/day of potential demonfinding info, which evil really needs right now (more than they think they do). Still, killing an acting minion at this point and outing them in the process is strong for town. He's not bluffing info that's backing up the demon (he's essentially bluffing as the sweetheart drunk), but it's still an outed minion with a town that's had a very hard time finding minions, and confirms the harlot himself is not the drunk (a world at this point).

I go for the harlot kill and bring it to 4 alive. The game culminates in an f3 with two evils, the savant, and the mez-turned banshee, which good wins 50% after the savant dumps her info and the seam has a "...no, that all works" moment, 50% on dreamer info. The cere wasn't overjoyed, but gets my reasoning, particularly regarding the "savant hard tunnelled on a different person being the cere" part that he wasn't aware of at the time.

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(there were also two co-STs that game, which makes all ST decisions more painful; this particular one was unanimous)

sour harness
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Mayor bounces are hard, especially when you forget to put a single shroud in your grim and decide that player is the best one to bounce to

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"player died in the night" "I thought he was already dead" "uhh... nobody died in the night"

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(I would never do this)

fast anchor
# next marlin [time isn't real]: Hardest ST decision you've ever made?

This game is still on the archive server (#1212138447956090990). It was a choice on whether or not to shab rez on N3 that was basically kingmaking: if I rezzed the Minstrel, then evil's chances of winning were super slim (I forget the exact calculations but evil needed a couple specific executions to happen). If I didn't, then evil would have a final day with one good player (the shab rez that night) against 4 evils (3 starting evils and the evil Goon). I ended up shab rezzing early, and evil eked out a win despite it (despite evil being miffed about getting outed that quickly)! Happy how it went but it was extremely stressful from the ST chair

sterile flame
supple dirge
tardy wyvern
# next marlin [time isn't real]: Hardest ST decision you've ever made?

was hosting a BMR game where the grandmother got killed night 2 and professor res’d night 3. I had to think really long and hard about who to make the second grandchild since the original one was already dead. I ended up putting it on a courtier, which was a bad call since they had confirmed a fool by drinking with the DA night 1, which resulted in a confirmation chain of around 5 players. We live we learn

sour harness
sly crescent
sharp violet
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Lil Monsta with Psycho Vizier wtf bro 😂

sharp violet
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Shab, Mayor I think are the ones where it can feel like all the reasonable options create a massive swing

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I think fisherman advice in the mid-late game is the hardest ST decision I've made beside that. Once I just told the Fish to execute the Demon with like 6 alive in a 12p game, and they meta'd the ST wouldn't tell themthat

lavish sail
lost thistle
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[Time is an Illusion]:
What is your favorite character besides showman from claire de morte?
and just in general, what are your thoughts on that?

Claire_De_Morte.png
zenith lotus
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(note for people not from #speculation-and-spoilers , this was a joke script "leaked" but has now been confirmed fake)

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my answer (as everyone's answer should be) is showman

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👏

fast anchor
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👏

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my answer is clear

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wait BESIDES SHOWMAN 😭

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pretty big fan of the Baron

if you want one of the homebrew ones bullfighter is a really fun concept

fast anchor
next marlin
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I still think patchwerk sounds based

fast anchor
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patchwerk is also fun

shrewd cloud
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Please give us a resurrection Minion, TPI, give script builders something so it’s not just Professor and Shab for this mechanic FrogeCry_REH

zenith lotus
fast anchor
next marlin
zenith lotus
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anyway second fav is probably Changeling

next marlin
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Some towns already kill professors for no reason

shrewd cloud
# fast anchor the boffin isn't enough imo

Agreed that’s why something like Patchwerk (even though it’s unfortunately HB) is so appealing to me. Because rn there just isn’t enough in the game to make resurrection a balanced mechanic on scripts

lost thistle
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the fun part of this list is how everyone intentionally gimped their own homebrew roles to make them more janky and unrefined

young sonnet
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Patchwerk and Lecturer are great

lost thistle
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yeah my personal favorite is lecturer

fast anchor
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Lecturer is funny but I don't really like Deacon as a character tbh

fast anchor
flat lintel
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showman is boring tho

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like you always clap?

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why not clap?

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@fast anchor @zenith lotus

zenith lotus
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its funny tho

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👏

fast anchor
sour harness
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👏

fast anchor
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the CdM characters are intentionally made jankier so they fit in better (and are funnier)

flat lintel
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whats the reason not to just out showman

young sonnet
young sonnet
sour harness
fast anchor
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or is it fucked up & evil something else

young sonnet
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I thought it was something else but idk

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I think Deacon is really cool

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@worthy grotto what's Lecturer

zenith lotus
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Lecturer is "Each day, visit the Storyteller to learn something a player is doing wrong"

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what's Deacon?

fast anchor
sly crescent
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except it has the D1 issue many homebrew savants have - if you visit too early in the day the only reasonable thing to learn is: someone visited storyteller too early in the day

next marlin
sly crescent
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i'm forgetful probably seen this script and asked about it already, because i remember seeing Phoenix and thinking that's dumb and awesome

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add to typical botc game f5 execute, f3 day = f4 day because +phoenix, skip(!), demon kills phoenix, still f4

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i may have seen a version of this that didn't change character

young sonnet
next marlin
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I like the ST visitor one better

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I would put that on every script

sly crescent
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ye it has lots of potential
someone (Imp) killed the Recluse
someone (Undertaker) claimed Undertaker to the wrong person
someone assumed it's a Spy game

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though it is weirdly phrased as ongoing "is doing wrong" so maybe single actions would not be the intended info, not sure 🤷

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that's the other issue with homebrew savants, hard to know if something qualifies 😉

lucid crag
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Basically just all amne but everything is once per games

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and people still have original abilities so you need to comprehend how things interact

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anyway great time 100% worth

worthy grotto
young sonnet
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Boom @fast anchor no relation to Deacon

warped fog
sly crescent
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it's not that different from ysk, there can be a meta problem of being involved in private conversations or not if everything you know is public knowledge, and unlike townsfolk ysk outsiders bring with them info that all good players might immediately need because it can change stuff and is unlikely to be droisoned or go away - withholding as tradeoff of personal gain vs group gain when no alignment swap is involved (same goal) is bound to be tough in some social circles

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that's no reason to change anything, i still like it. in fact it's healthy to view other types of character as something you get, but Outsider as something that happens to you 😄 accept that % of games you will be the designated driver or what equivalent you want to think of and be more part of the storyteller's narrative than the group of heroes/villains

next marlin
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Eh I think the best outsiders are the ones that don't feel like 'something that happened to you'

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Puzzlemaster my beloved

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PM is such a beautifully designed role, it's a devastating outsider that tricks you into feeling like you're a townsfolk

sly crescent
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yesss spread that droison paranoia my preciouss

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it an be viewed as exceptonal because it basically equivalent to Drunk + some sort of huntsman who can guess them, so it flips who becomes the effective outsider

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i think Mutant whenever i want to conjure a picture of perfect outsider - variety of playstyles and options, but definitely a problem and not a solution

next marlin
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Mutant is interesting because people underestimate how loadbearing its "we have Politician at home" status on snv is to making the role work, because they assume people are just going to want to be mad for no reason

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Without fang gu mutant balances as a near-guaranteed misexecution, which is outsidery but in a pretty brute-force way

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With fang gu mutant balances as poli but without the mildest 25% of its range

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(because a poli can straightforwardly out and play for good without tanking an execution -- town won't trust them, but that's the outsider part sticking around)

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Mutant on scripts without fang gu is making a bet that most people who draw the role are going to be people who find screwing your team over fun for its own sake

sly crescent
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can be boring explosion, but the choice to not explode is there and reasonable, without Fang Gu or Godfather to dissuade

next marlin
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I think poli is actually better than mutant on most scripts (net +1.5 evils of fg/poli aside) but it's more socially volatile which makes people more hesitant

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So they put mutant on scripts hoping it'll be the "poli at home" it is on snv

sly crescent
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not sure why every script needs +evil but ye poli does that better

next marlin
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There are too many extra evils roles lol

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It's tough to design outsiders that are 1. not just something that happens to you 2. not an extra evil

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PM, golem, moonchild, ...?
And two of those are notorious townsiders

dense hound
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klutz?

next marlin
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Klutz is a losscon so it inherently has a larger "something that happens to you" component

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It's pretty agentic though yeah

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Probably right on the border

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There are a lot of not-very-agentic outsiders I would rather play than klutz any day but I do not like having losscons attached to me

dense hound
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im fine with the snitches or the tinkers or the zealots etc because i usually just use those as a way to be trusted easily and get hard claims

sly crescent
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Klutz is hard confirmation i love it; other losecon not so much

foggy grotto
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10/23 (time IS real): what is the most egregious ST mistake you’ve ever either made yourself or seen?

next marlin
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this one guy couldn't spell 'egregious'

sour harness
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The poisoner poisoned the slayer, who then shot the demon that day. "[Demon] dies, and the game is over!!!" "Wait but didn't I poison him?"

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Idk if that's the MOST egregious but it's memorable

next marlin
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Yeah I did the whoops slayer shot one once

gray ridge
sour harness
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Rip

next marlin
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I think I've caused at least two reracks as a spec watching games with an evil townsfolk next to a no dashii who did something mechanically impossible (e.g. lycan kill)

sour harness
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One time I played a game as the BH where the ST forgot to tell the evil townsfolk that they were evil

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Also ND lycan???

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Why??????

next marlin
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Once in one night I saw an ST run sailor drunkenness as "might" and not drunk the self-picking sailor, then the next game give lunatic and atheist as two of the three demon bluffs

next marlin
foggy grotto
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why did it autocorrect to a word that wasn’t real wtf

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i spelled it even worse and my phone was like “did you mean aggregious?”

sour harness
lean isle
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I've accidentally told the Demon an in-play character as bluff once.

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It was fine at beginning, then triple IK claim was found.

swift thicket
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my calamity collection from recent memory:

  1. reading out player's names during shenanigans and accidentally reading out loud "Savant" rather than the player's name
  2. forgetting that a scarlet woman was in play (thankfully t'was just a teensy)
  3. letting a pukka-poisoned gossip get a kill (i mistakenly thought that gossip kills were locked in at point of gossip rather than during their spot in the night order)
sour harness
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3 isn't that bad tbh

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Like, it's wrong, but understandably so

dusky minnow
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Once in an irl game I just said someone's role instead of their name, at least this was private and only 1 other player heard it

swift thicket
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as for other STs, the worst i've had happen while playing was getting woken up as the Mayor to learn that 1 of 2 players was the Ravenkeeper

sour harness
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Pfff I gave a lib 0 to the WW recently

next marlin
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(he made a pretty big deal out of it)

swift thicket
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hold on the sins of my past are crawling back to me: i accidentally told a savant "...and your false info is...", which they then happily went back to town square to tell everyone lmao

dusky minnow
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Should just do that everytime and switch up whether it's true or not

next marlin
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I've taken to just pressing T to flip the tokens on the grim during juggles-etc (on the app) so I can't see people's roles and cross a wire

swift thicket
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and while i wouldn't consider this a "mistake" in the classical sense, i did make a player the alch-OG like half a year ago and i still get reminded about it frequently by that group

next marlin
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I saw a Huntsman +1 turn the damsel into an alch-OG

swift thicket
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i think that's all of my worst ST moments wringed out but i am gonna be running again tonight so if i make any more blunders i'll make sure to update here

swift thicket
sharp violet
pseudo fulcrum
#

My worst one (which i'm sure everyone who's storytold online at some point has done) is accidentally killing the fang gu jumped player instead of changing their character

#

like on the online interface

tardy wyvern
#

also I wasn't there for this game but one of the people in my group accidentally gave the spy the virgin ability and caused an execution when they were nominated

young sonnet
#

I can imagine the ST for that game lmao

#

"I am so sorry. I have never seen an MM actually proc, I just, forgot what to do this is totally on me I'm sorry"

fast anchor
#

im sorry, the poisoned token is small, okay

#

😭

#

Mistake I've seen: Having to end a game in a draw because the Savant info was invalid, and it made the solve unfindable

Mistake I've made: either the aforementioned poisoned Slayer shot, or saying "hold on, I need to think of a false statement" to the Savant (or forgetting about the Pukka/Lycan doublekill interaction on a night it should've happened, though nobody actually noticed until after the game so it wasn't that egregious)

tardy wyvern
#

Specifically one that I've made was probably forgetting that widow poison goes away when the widow dies and giving the widow poisoned savant wrong info when they should have been sober

sour harness
fast anchor
#

THE SLAYER WAS IN THE CORNER

sour harness
#

This is why I put the token box on the right side of the grim

fast anchor
#

you take that back the token box should go on the larger side

#

you commit grimoire sins every day you put the token box on the right

sour harness
sour harness
fast anchor
#

im sorry for following literal almanac guidance 🙄

IMG_5971.jpg
fast anchor
#

like the Vortox token on the grim when giving dreamer info 🤥

sour harness
#

I've literally never made that mistake what are you talking about

fast anchor
#

you've erased it from your memory

sour harness
#

I've done the inverse

sour harness
fast anchor
#

it's not an argument

#

i'm just being facetious because I know I'm wrong

sour harness
#

LOL

#

Ok carry on then

fast anchor
sour harness
#

It explicitly says "remove when convenient"

#

In their actual entries

fast anchor
#

still not gonna do it

sour harness
#

I just put em on the opposite ends of the character tokens, because I actually have the space to do so

supple dirge
#

Worst mistakes imo are done midway through the game with no reasonable way to fix them. I've seen forgetting to do a minstrel night really screwed up town. One game of snv was stopped midway because the st forgot to remove an outsider for vigormortis and only realized when I started talking about me and another outsider claim meant there's no vigor.

sharp violet
#

My worst mistake is probably waking up a Zombuul with an ordinary death

#

Worst ST mistake I've seen is apparently the Empath sitting next to me getting a 0 (The Marionette) was instead sitting halfway across the grim???

devout quail
swift thicket
flat lintel
#

my worst mistake was killing the tinker in the night (after I pacifist saved the neighbor of the gf who was bluffing tea lady) and than giving the gf a kill 😭

#

it was bad

#

actually

#

thats the tip of the iceberg

#

i make mistakes 😛

next marlin
#

I was the good twin

#

It's still the only game I've been a twin

#

We were clockmakers though so it probably would've been a d2 rerack anyway lmao

gray ridge
#

The one time I was the ET the witch cursed my good twin D1

#

I was the good twin one time but it was a 5 player game where we were alsaahirs

#

And I ended up guessing the demon first try lol

tardy wyvern
next marlin
#

Assertive players are good choices for both good twins and witch curses

tardy wyvern
#

I typically choose good twins based on character rather than player (unless there's a player I know really really doesn't like playing twins)

dense hound
next marlin
#

Only if it's noticeable over the course of a lot of games

#

Which is usually not the case

#

(in practice the main way you find out someone hates playing twins is by making them the good twin)

#

I mostly assign twins by character too (planning out "this role is a twin" beforehand) but players are a nonzero factor and a lot of STs go primarily for the player

#

Once I ended up with a savant twin pair where in the game before, the evil twin was the good twin oracle and the good twin was the demon bluffing savant :^)

tardy wyvern
sour harness
next marlin
#

I am going to keep trying

sour harness
#

I believe in you vati, break your record. 9 savants

next marlin
#

There were twins that game, funnily enough

sour harness
#

I wanna run savant twins so bad

next marlin
#

...twin town criers with more madness executions than normal executions

sour harness
#

And last game I discovered one player can actually bluff savant 👀

#

She was ceremad but the info she gave was fully the kind of thing I'd give

sour harness
#

One player keeps pulling minions but today he pulled math? They already know I like math twins, yeah let's do that again

#

An experienced player pulls ET? Let's put em against the player who shadowed the ST last game

#

Brand new player pulls ET? The good twin is the other new player

next marlin
#

the other new player rolled savant

sour harness
#

Nah those were juggler twins

#

Well, one claimed artist, but eh

next marlin
#

I believe in theory that I can teach a new player how to bluff savant in the space of an ST consult
Evil has not yet won a game where I tried this

sly crescent
#

note new meta - if the consult is too long, st is teaching the player to bluff

tardy wyvern
#

either that or the ST is making up savant info on the fly

sly crescent
#

that's how you bluff savant well - have to consult twice (in live) to fake st come back to me later moment

sour harness
#

4/205/24: what's your grim setup? Which side does the token box go in, do you use the night order tokens, etc?

shrewd cloud
#

I still haven’t gotten a chance to regularly ST in person (only at conventions) but I like to put my token box on the right. And my in play reminder tokens that aren’t currently being used on the bottom of the left side. I don’t use night order tokens

supple dirge
#

From a custom script game I ran at the Vegas con, grim on the left, night sheet, bluffs other reminders on the right. I just throw all the tokens I'm not using on the bottom right.

PXL_20241013_035210260.jpg
vale oxide
fast anchor
#

My setup's pretty typical? Bluffs in the middle, extra reminders on the right side, token box on the left side with the characters going around

IMG_5979.jpg
#

if I'm running a really big game I'll put the bluffs on the right side and just kinda cram the extra reminders wherever I can find space for them

fast anchor
shrewd cloud
#

You can move your hand over both sides of the Grim to make it unclear which side you’re picking it up from. In general it’s good practice to move your hand all over the Grim whenever you might be doing something so people can’t meta you

lucid crag
sour harness
# supple dirge From a custom script game I ran at the Vegas con, grim on the left, night sheet,...

I should answer this myself, mine is closest to this one (I don't have a grim of my own and all my pictures are just the left side). I put the token box on the bottom of the right side and the night order sheet above it. Other cards are loose on top of the right side of the night order sheet (I'm not reading that far to the right anyway). Reminder tokens I expect to use later are on the right side to the left of the night order, and bluffs go back in the token box unless there's a grimpeeker, where I'll put em in the middle of the left side next to the "these characters are not in play" card

supple dirge
sour harness
#

I just take my time while they're awake lol

#

And I always reach into both sides of the grim, usually multiple times each

next marlin
#

Most are not nearly this cluttered (the savant generally doesn't live that long)

hollow oasis
#

Lol this is THAT game

next marlin
#

It was fun :)

#

I've told part of the story of it here before

hollow oasis
#

all hail savant

next marlin
#

[time]: Unpopular or controversial scriptbuilding opinions? I don't mean stuff like "loud godfather bad" or "sailor/lleech bad", I want your hottest takes

hollow oasis
#

Stop with these godawful psychopath scripts

#

With no goddamn info

#

makes my blood evaporate

sharp violet
#

I'm totally fine with playing on scripts with zero info and all power roles

hollow oasis
#

It wasn’t like

#

Town was strong or anything

#

(Fuck there was a BOUNTY HUNTER)

sharp violet
#

Yeah droison spam + info is not the same as zero info to me

hollow oasis
#

To me it is

#

Because it’s so damn unreliable I cannot trust it

sharp violet
#

Id just call that droison spam

#

Zero info is its own archetype

hollow oasis
#

although it wasn’t like that was a high info game

#

Anyway

sharp violet
#

But yes I actively prefer scripts with low info

hollow oasis
#

(I dislike psychopath in general)

#

not like a

#

Won’t play a script with it

sharp violet
#

I dislike psycho mildly but it's a warm take

hollow oasis
#

It’s usually a sign that “this script is a joke” half the time

#

“Lmao”

sharp violet
#

Every game of psycho I've been in has been evil winning if they win the RPS and good winning if they dont, or hidden psycho that ends the game anticlimactically

hollow oasis
#

( I think psycho should have the fool’s ability instead)

#

(For executions only)

#

That’s my take

#

Screw roshambo

#

None of that randomness

sharp violet
#

Anyways for some other unhinged takes

hollow oasis
#

“Heretic balances all LMAO”

sharp violet
#

Legion is pretty flexible and I often look at scripts and think "Legion would work here"

hollow oasis
#

That’s a take

#

(Especially with these loud minions)

#

(Give me ||Sicilian|| or give me death)

sharp violet
#

Legion has like a list of bad interactions but those interactions often get avoided anyway

hollow oasis
#

Half of them are outsiders

sharp violet
#

You dont put outsiders in legion bags

#

That's the official reccommendation for legion in general

hollow oasis
#

That creates metas

sharp violet
#

Yes that's the point

hollow oasis
#

(Which I am VERY known for breaking)

next marlin
hollow oasis
#

I don’t put more than 1 outsider in legion tho

#

That’s just mean

next marlin
#

Outsiders (and Cult Leader) that are +evils tend to be much milder than evilsided +evils or BH

#

Something like ogre/poli or ogre/goon is not necessarily a script issue depending what you do with the rest of the bag

hollow oasis
#

(Exception is legion, but that’s different)

sharp violet
#

Ooh I know another one

#

I love arbitrary Huntsman outsider mod

hollow oasis
#

Ow my bones

#

🦴 💥

#

Seriously that’s gonna be an intended interaction on MHD tho

#

(Heretic lol)

sharp violet
#

Yes

next marlin
sharp violet
#

Arbitrary huntsman outsider mod I like with Heretic

hollow oasis
#

I try to make a balanced script like that

austere steppe
#

I think there should be more single demon customs; they tend to need lower powered townsfolk to feel good, and I find those games more enjoyable.

Chef and Noble should never be on the same script.

sly crescent
#

Chef+Noble? what makes this undesirable?

hollow oasis
#

I’m not sure

sly crescent
pliant grail
#

Poisoner is difficult balance a script around, and most people just don't take that effort, resulting in an imbalance of misinfo

Because of this, poisoner is my least favorite minion. I think that it's the only character that makes me hesitate to play scripts(other than TB)

next marlin
#

Yeah I strongly dislike pois

#

So many customs are droison spam

wispy nest
#

I like poisoner

#

:)))))

zenith lotus
#

i like poisoner when its done well

wispy nest
#

Yeah

next marlin
#

Like by the time you've got a game with a poisonlocked puzzledrunk masking the no dashii tentacle stretching halfway across the grim and the innkeeper is hitting the remaining townsfolk, you might want to consider removing about half of those roles

wispy nest
#

I like long arms

#

:))))))

next marlin
#

(and this was also a heretic script, so like, you want some kind of info to know if there's a heretic)

indigo osprey
#

Poisoner is often just necessary to limit the power of information

#

just like how it functions on tb

#

like: high info scripts (dreamer, fortune teller, empath, savant, fisherman, cannibal, etc.) can use a bit of droison

pliant grail
# indigo osprey Poisoner is often just necessary to limit the power of information

This is also unfortunately true, but people don't do it well
Look at the info on tb:
Empath, unless bring poison locked, can tell that they've been poisoned if they get a different number with no change

Fortune Teller has two possible answers and it's relatively simple to tell if you got one or the other too often

Almost all the YSK'S except for chef you're going to have a pretty good idea by the end if what you saw was correct
Soldier/mayor pretty easy to tell
Etc. etc. poisoner works on TB not just because town has a lot of info but because poison is trackable and because it's one of two sources of droisoning. If either of those aren't true poisoner becomes way powerful.

Poisoner is basically the only moving droison in the game (except pukka and pit hag/nodashii shenanigans) and so people have 1 option. I really wish that poisoner wasn't as definite as it was- it's needed on TB but in terms of script building a lot of scripts could use variants of it that are just plain less powerful

fast anchor
next marlin
#

I'm in two minds about it

fast anchor
#

Knowing exactly which outsiders are in play is still very powerful, and if you hide and town makes the wrong execution late-game you just clean up

next marlin
#

Godfather is two abilities in one, one of which is a somewhat-quieter-depending-on-script witch sidegrade and one of which is an info role that's too weak for most evil info but gives a minion a free bluff

fast anchor
#

Hide and Seek has problems, but GF/Ojo as the only death mod is not one of them imo

#

It's a fun dynamic that keeps worlds open

fast anchor
next marlin
#

I think ojo is enough death mod for gf but when I say that I think this I mean that I tell myself this as cope so I can use gf on scripts

#

(notably, godfather as purely a witch sidegrade also works, but requires a super specific script itself)

#

The problem with gf is that it is so incredibly, unrelentingly cool that it wants to go everywhere as a role that probably cannot go everywhere

indigo osprey
pliant grail
#

ultimately, my preferred source of misinfo is misregistration, but obviously that can only do so much and droisoning is needed. ||i'm holding out for amaniti and scarecrow though||

sour harness
sour harness
#

ND + marionette is a terrible script combo imo

#

fang_gu is difficult to build for and it's much like poisoner in that people put it where they shouldn't

#

Like, most outsiders don't work with it at all

next marlin
#

If you put fang gu on a script it becomes a fang gu script

#

But people do not realize it is a character this applies to

sour harness
#

Yeah

next marlin
#

Mostly because people are so desperate for outsider mod

#

(and sentinel doesn't work with drunk...fang gu doesn't either but)

sour harness
#

Fang Gu drunk is funny. I enjoy it on a joke script. But if that's not what you're going for then what on earth are you doing

next marlin
#

Fang Gu/Drunk works on exactly Catfishing

#

And Catfishing is Catfishing

sour harness
#

I've actually only played that once

#

And it was a long time ago

next marlin
#

I have run it three times, resulting in the following games:

  1. Cerenovus locks Grandmother as Investigator almost the whole time, completely ruins all worldbuilding, town hard decides it's Vigormortis because an "invest ping" died n2 and the three outsider claims fit Vigor/Godfather/Balloonist (there were four outsiders and the Balloonist claim was the Cerenovus), Drunk-Snake Charmer and Fang Gu pick each other n2 and somehow win after the Dreamer picks the new Fang Gu the same night
  2. Chef 0 bluffs Gambler to bait a kill, learns the chef number is not 0 when she becomes the Fang Gu, Recluse roleswaps with the Dreamer to bait a pithagging and yells out "I'M THE MUTANT" and fucks over a day of Savant info, game somehow ends in 3 evils alive after everyone 100% knows the extremely obvious new demon is the new demon
  3. Drunk-Amnesiac, Mutant-Amnesiac, and Fortune Teller lying about her pings solve d2, demon outs on block
#

It's like if you stripped snv of every single handbrake, safety net, concept of sanity and reason, or attachment to being "a good script"

sour harness
#

Oh cool

foggy grotto
#

i think i described catfishing once as the map dustbowl from tf2

#

its so bad, in the best way possible

next marlin
#

My ST spiel for people new to it is "Have you ever played SnV and thought 'damn, I love this script, but there's a huge problem with it, it's good, I want to play a script that's exactly like this but it's bad'? You're in luck! That script exists, it's called Catfishing, and it's amazing"

foggy grotto
next marlin
#

I see tons of hatter scripts

#

...they're all chaos hatter

foggy grotto
next marlin
#

Shenanigans n Virtuosity and Shisha with the Shabaloth are I think the only hatter scripts I know of that 1. I've ever seen someone run and 2. are intentionally not chaos hatter

#

and they're both vigor scripts so I'm never putting hatter in the bag

sour harness
shrewd cloud
#

I think I’ve only made a Hatter script like three times, one of which is my most recent one which my group seemed to like enough. And no chaos Hatter Oh_yes

Chaos Hatter is just bleh to me

next marlin
#

I'm a control freak who wants to carefully balance good and evil teams against each other
But also hatter is kind of sad to me because it's one of the many on-death outsiders whose ability resolves to "you hard fuck over town as soon as you die, but also the ST has balanced the game assuming you die and evil's plans probably rely on your death"

#

And it tends to be a worse example of that than a lot of other on-deaths (barber is one of fairly few that's similar)

#

So the actual player experience is kind of "...cool, I need to live to f3 as a massive target then, or die immediately and play the rest of the game as a corpse"

#

(I think a lot of people make customs without accounting for the fact snv only gets away with having brutal and antifun on-deaths because if you roll outsider in snv it's pretty likely you can become the demon, which makes you a politician, and poli is much more fun to play than e.g. sweetheart)

#

But custom design tends to treat roles as much more blank-token than they really are, so people don't internalize how scriptwarping roles like fang gu are, and outsider mod on customs is almost always much more arbitrary than on the base scripts

#

Fundamentally we have too many on-death outsiders though

#

It's hard to get a good outsider suite on a script without them and they're all kind of the same to play, with variance across a spectrum from klutz/moonchild to barber/hatter in terms of "how interesting can they be anyway"

fast anchor
austere steppe
# sly crescent Chef+Noble? what makes this undesirable?

The question was hottest takes, not 'yo dawg this is mild and you will agree with it'. I think both chef numbers and noble pings drive early executions too much (fake or otherwise), often at evil's expense, which can be quite swingy.

#

Id put clockmaker on this list too, but people dont often put clockmaker scripts with either (rightfully so).

barren zenith
#

Courtier brings almost all games straight to a painful halt

#

I don't really have a justification for bounty hunter, I just don't like the character much

austere steppe
#

I think its one of those 'good on paper' things, but then STs feel bad giving the demon or any impactful minions, so you left pinging of the recluse or evil townsfolk or goblin.

young sonnet
#

BH shouldn't be on the same script as goblin lmao what

sour harness
barren zenith
#

I tried to give a hot-take and everyone agrees with me 😂

foggy grotto
#

but tbh i think it’ll mix better with the roles on that script

tall raft
young sonnet
gray ridge
# barren zenith Courtier and bounty hunter just aren't that fun imo

I have to agree ngl, courtier feels way too swingy since 90% of the times it either gets the demon or doesnt do anything (since most courtiers just choose a demon), and BH is super unfun because it straight up gives an awnser to the whole puzzle of the game, and its also unfun to the evil player because people will just tunnel into you the entire game and you wont rlly have fun

#

That kinda extends to investigator too, but its a bit less unfun because you can bluff to save your ass

#

I love noble as a YSK an evil because it actually requires thought to which player and minion they are, they just give you one piece of the puzzle instead of the whole picture like BH

#

(or half of the puzzle like investigator)

gray ridge
next marlin
# barren zenith I don't really have a justification for bounty hunter, I just don't like the cha...

BH's problem is it's a fundamentally unfun role, but the second thing it does (starting evil townsfolk of the ST's choice) is unique and something people really want, so it goes everywhere
This means we have to suffer through BH Scripts and BH Games because evil banshees and savants and fishermen are cool, and we all know that the mez is going to either get randomly executed d1 or turn something useless (and even if they don't, that's still fundamentally a random, player-dictated element, which means you cannot run a setup with a particular evil townsfolk)

#

Boffin helps, because it confesses what people actually put BH on scripts to get (an evil townsfolk of the ST's choice)

#

We just need a Puzzlemaster-type outsider (townsfolk deactivator with a high but risky upside) that makes a starting extra evil so people can use it on 95% of current BH scripts

hollow oasis
#

guys

#

whatever you do

#

don't put evil good roles with poisoner

#

thanks

young sonnet
sour harness
#

I think that's just correct

hollow oasis
#

alchemist works(i guess)

fast anchor
hollow oasis
#

this is the

#

ONLY

#

alchemist script that alchemist is just meh

#

and as powerful as your average TF

sour harness
hollow oasis
#

look

#

ya gotta understand

sour harness
#

Legion Saint is rough I feel. Though I haven't actually played it

hollow oasis
#

that i'm NOT putting in legion

sour harness
#

Oh right outsider count in legion games is a thing

hollow oasis
#

(D1 rerack trauma)

sour harness
#

Forgor

#

Butler legion is really funny, I like it

hollow oasis
#

butler in a legion game is good

sour harness
#

Oh yeah it's not a bad combo at all

#

It's just funny

hollow oasis
#

legion:only time butler is in all ways better than zealot

sour harness
# hollow oasis

Librarian fang gu, script jail

-# ok that one isn't game breaking but I strongly dislike it

sour harness
hollow oasis
#

in all ways

sour harness
#

I like butler WAY more than zealot

hollow oasis
#

same?

#

zealot just is slightly less................. always horrible normally

sour harness
#

Wait what were you saying then

hollow oasis
#

zealot has upsides in other scripts

#

(not in legion)

#

(ever, it's just bad)

young sonnet
# fast anchor Tepid take tbh

I always see people in custom scripts channel trying to build with it. We simply don't have the right minions to make it work

hollow oasis
#

balanced Alch minions

sour harness
#
  1. vizier
#

Yeah that's it /j

hollow oasis
#

Fearmonger,DA,Evil Twin*,Vizier,Boffin,Goblin**,Witch

sour harness
#

DA needs an asterisk

#

Bc if there's good sided exe survival on script then it's busted

hollow oasis
#

If it really doesn't want to use it's ability

sour harness
#

What's the ET asterisk? Just ST it competently?

hollow oasis
#

(When shown OP minions/the Demon)

sour harness
#

Yeah cool

hollow oasis
#

(don't show it the fucking boomdandy)

sour harness
#

If it sees the demon that's kinda boring imo

hollow oasis
#

i really wanna give the alch ET a Legion player

#

so bad

sour harness
#

Ooh that's fun

hollow oasis
#

(who needs saint, we have saint at home)

sour harness
#

man if only waltz still had a legion on it

next marlin
#

Me when I show the alch-et the cere and they unexpectedly get locked for the entire game because of night order (there was certainly no way to foresee this outcome)

hollow oasis
#

no

#

Fearmonger,DA,Evil Twin*,Vizier,Boffin,Goblin**,Witch

#

the alch list

#

(goblin is when your players don't trust the goblins)

sour harness
#

Heretic makes alch goblin work imo

hollow oasis
#

actually

#

no one trusts the alch goblins

sour harness
#

Because you can't simply confirm the alch and win

#

Though, I don't like heretic goblin

#

So

hollow oasis
#

if you're at the point where they are confirmed

sour harness
#

🤷 alch bad

hollow oasis
#

the demon should've murdered them

sour harness
#

Have you heard of not outing info publicly

hollow oasis
#

Ojo

#

(actually, im starting to not like fang gu on my script)

next marlin
#

I once specced a game that evil won because the mutant was claiming alch goblin with a real goblin

hollow oasis
#

wa

next marlin
#

So town kinda went "there's no goblin lol"

hollow oasis
#

t

#

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

#

and they didn't break?!?!?!

next marlin
#

The goblin was a legit demon candidate

hollow oasis
#

oh

#

fair enough then

sour harness
# hollow oasis

Wait a sec I didn't realize, paci fang gu, go to script jail

hollow oasis
#

please tell me how that sucks

sour harness
#

I mean are you just gonna never save outsiders

hollow oasis
#

(saint)

sour harness
#

Execution survival is an inherently evil sided mechanic. BMR does a lot to make it work

sour harness
sour harness
hollow oasis
#

got it

#

screw fang gu

sour harness
#

If a townsfolk is capable of saving a player who could later be the demon, script jail

hollow oasis
#

what should i replace it with

#

pukka?

sour harness
#

Tf exe saves NEED to be players who will be non demons forever, otherwise their ability becomes -1 execution

sharp violet
#

Ngl I rolled Pukka in BMR and that was terrifying

hollow oasis
#

i rolled it once

#

and was like

#

(guys)

#

lets murder everyone

#

and win

sour harness
#

I don't think I've ever been the demon in bmr yet

hollow oasis
#

it twas my first bmr game

sour harness
#

Lol nice

hollow oasis
#

(they thought it was Po)

next marlin
#

I like how everyone's answers except mine and karniv's to the "no seriously what are your strongest and most volatile scriptbuilding opinions" question are softball answers and then hystrex in a completely unrelated conversation brings out the "paci fang gu is the worst thing you can ever do" take

sharp violet
#

Rolling Shab or Po is chill, I can end the game faster. Zombuul can chill while dead for a bit

#

But Pukka is like I gotta kill all these players with no mobility

hollow oasis
#

QUICK

#

MURDER THAT

#

important TF probably i dunno

next marlin
#

(and then you get 0 kills because town keeps executing them or the ST put an innkeeper in)

next marlin
sharp violet
#

Ok it is funny when you fail so hard at killing people they start believing its zombuul

sour harness
hollow oasis
next marlin
#

I see the problem for like TL

hollow oasis
#

i mean

sour harness
#

If the script is competent then they'll all be outsiders you'd really want to save if fg wasn't a possibility

next marlin
#

"Paci can acquire gamestate knowledge based on whether they save outsiders or not" is cool and I like it

sour harness
#

Ok but you're making that the entire gimmick of the script then

hollow oasis
#

is that a gimmick

next marlin
#

Also fang gu on a bmrlike-enough-to-have-paci script should probably have godfather and by extension have much less brutal outsiders

hollow oasis
#

or just like

sour harness
#

Because this is fully leaning into "paci is an outsider" territory

sour harness
hollow oasis
#

(i was gonna proc them twice ngl)

next marlin
#

(because fg/gf has the dynamic without requiring all the outsiders be brutal on-deaths and kind of sucks if they are)

hollow oasis
#

sweetheart is the ONLY on death

sour harness
#

And then the outsiders are stuff like butlers and lunatics

#

Yeah that could work

hollow oasis
#

yeah...

#

they are

sour harness
#

Oh I forgot there was an actual script posted lol

#

I was talking more about (responsible) fg/gf scripts

hollow oasis
#

once again

next marlin
#

I still think saint is certainly a role that exists here but that's my opinion on saint/fang gu in general

hollow oasis
#

(also ignore the FUCK out of drunk fang gu)

sharp violet
sour harness
#

Don't put gf here. That probably didn't need to be said but don't

hollow oasis
#

it used

#

to have gf

#

(why do you think boffin is here)

#

(||sicilian|| would be here if it existed)

sour harness
#

Like you said a thing and it had meaning but it also had 0 meaning

#

You know?

hollow oasis
#

doublespeak gaming

sour harness
next marlin
#

I'm just trying to maximize how circumlocutory my speech is while allowing people to in theory follow it

#

haven't you noticed

hollow oasis
#

gotta understand

#

this is a SOCIAL DEDUCTION GAME'S community

sour harness
hollow oasis
#

of course this is gonna happen

sour harness
next marlin
#

my fault sorry

hollow oasis
#

hes mad

sharp violet
#

Oh another hot take

#

Balloonist Vortox is fine if you know what player count you'll run

hollow oasis
#

i once ran balloonist vortox

#

and set it to outsiders

sour harness
#

I think balloonist vortox is actually just fine

hollow oasis
#

sooooooo

sharp violet
#

yea

sour harness
#

Like, balloonist can't just go on snv

hollow oasis
#

(that was a funny game, the goblin was claiming an outsider)

sour harness
#

But if you build for it it's a very very good interaction imo

sharp violet
#

Like its good info if its non TF but even then the balloonist lived for awhile

#

So it can have it

sour harness
#

Especially if it's not perma vortox. But it's fine if it is

hollow oasis
#

i just playtested this

#

and uhhhhh

#

(funny legion alch da bluff ensues)

#

(d1 good player death LOL)

sharp violet
#

Was it a sus good player

hollow oasis
#

nope

#

it was for SCIENCE

#

(it was 6 and 4)

#

(evil could've won but one of them forgot to vote in f5)

sharp violet
#

Legion has this interesting dynamic where you either go for never killing good players or go for throat and try to exe them all

hollow oasis
#

yea

#

it was a fun game

#

game looked like this

#

balloonist was the alch da

#

exe

gray ridge
zenith lotus
#

juggler should never be put on any script ever 😉

sour harness
sour harness
zenith lotus
#

i cant figure out how to balance it without it just being SnV

sour harness
#

Ok valid

#

A grimpeeker definitely helps

zenith lotus
#

otherwise its stupid strong

sour harness
#

Vortox does a lot for SnV that a grimpeeker could also do

next marlin
#

I like juggler but I also like solo demon scripts and if you put a juggler on a solo demon script they just juggle 5 people as the kazali

next marlin
sour harness
#

Yeah juggler doesn't work on a solo demon script unless it's lleech or LM

sour harness
#

Even with a spy tho, juggler is still strong

#

Madness and other reasons for good players to lie really help

#

Basically

#

Juggler is built for snv

next marlin
#

Juggler is balanced in the same way as Sage, i.e. its homescript renders it a blank token like 70% of the time

#

A conclusion I've come to is that putting more than one "shenanigans role" (juggler/gossip/kinda-slayer/alsaahir) on a script does not work

#

The ability for evil to work out which player claiming a shenanigans role is the real one and deactivate it is a large part of their balance

#

Which becomes impossible when they all blend into white noise

sour harness
#

I think slayer + juggler in particular is fine

next marlin
#

Yeah slayer is very noncentrally an example

#

A lot of people meme slayer shoot d1 but it's memey

sharp violet
#

Mathematician is the biggest one for me

#

It's cool as hell but on SnV it kinda just sits there

hollow oasis
#

:/

next marlin
#

I love math on snv

#

I don't love that the n1 math 1 worlds are so specific

#

snv+puzzlemaster fixes this

sharp violet
#

Bruh Im never gonna forget that one time

#

I was Town Crier and you sweetheart drunk'd me cuz you didn't feel like tracking that

next marlin
#

lmao sorry

sharp violet
#

Nah it was funny af

next marlin
#

I think that was like the secondish game I ran tc

#

Third maybe

#

So I just spent the whole time going "oh my god I'm going to fuck up the tc info somehow"

hollow oasis
#

Gotta love the app giving us ST’s the nom/vote trackers

sharp violet
#

Fuck I just thought of something really funny

hollow oasis
#

Online gaming lets Go

sharp violet
#

So if there's an Outsider and they get Fang Gu jumped

#

Before you tell them

#

Show them the "Did you vote today?" card

hollow oasis
#

Now THATS funny

next marlin
#

(in large part due to "average savant false statement interpretation")

sharp violet
#

That was the same game I got made mad as the Philosopher I think

next marlin
#

Might have been

sharp violet
#

Barista doubled cerenovus

next marlin
#

The only madness I vividly remember from it was the juggler getting ceresniped as snake charmer and instantly going "GUYS I JUST GOT SNAKECHARMED I WAS VIGOR"

#

In a base 1

#

A base 1 fang gu game

sharp violet
#

Ohh did an Outsider expose them

next marlin
#

They both just kinda stayed quiet

#

I thought it was genius honestly because the outsiders would know he was lying and could probably consider madness, while still convincing town as a whole

sharp violet
#

Yea I say nothing with Fang Gu on script

#

Legit I was recluse and the first person I talk to hard claims recluse to my face

#

No cere or anything

#

Ok the funniest thing was

#

I was doing a convoluted Mayor bluff

#

So the Lunatic attacked me, the real Fang Gu followed, and they died so it looked like a Mayor bounce

next marlin
#

Was this the game where you ended up bluffing damsel bluffing mayor and couldn't go for a mayor win

#

I remember you mentioning that

sharp violet
#

Yes

next marlin
#

Most successful 5D chess bluff

sharp violet
#

Basically I gave a hard 2 of mayor or juggler to the juggler

#

And I became the Fang Gu immediately so cant even just tell the truth lol

next marlin
#

See this is part of why damsel/huntsman/fang gu is such a good script triad

#

Get a minion to claim huntsman, you're the mayor now

#

But people love them some solo damsels

austere steppe
#

Hunstman just is a feels bad character. Not surprised to see it like so.

next marlin
#

I see huntsmen turn their damsel (or at least "find them but they're pukka poisoned or something") in >50% of games where both the huntsman and damsel survive d1 so I'm always a little out of sync with the particular "you never find the damsel ever" complaint

#

The problem is just the arbitrary mod (setting heretic aside)

#

Huntsman +0 is a weak but solid townsfolk

#

Not necessarily even that weak, it's a confirmation chain at a risk

#

Huntsman +1 is a Puzzlemaster sidegrade, which is where the problem arises

austere steppe
#

Hunstman and Paci are just bad.

#

There is room in BOTC design space for un-fun roles, they are on the top of that list.

gray ridge
#

yeah +1 huntsman is just an outsider

austere steppe
#

Huntsman +0 isn't that great either. Players do not know if its +0 or +1, thus its effectively an additional outsider bluff for evil. Not really what I'd consider helpful to town for just knowing that there is a singular outsider in play with minimal/rare upside. Probably worse than Golem and Puzzlemaster in useful it is to town

indigo osprey
#

Fang gu/drunk is fine, I don’t see the issue here

foggy grotto
#

i think it is

pliant grail
#

I dont think so personally

#

not only does bounty hunter not really feel great on GoS in terms of ability, I think that for a bounty of alignment change to work most if not all of it needs to be mid-game, secret, or constantly flipping

young sonnet
#

Levi ||DoN|| Bounty Hunter is literally just an outsider

pliant grail
#

||DoN|| bounty hunter doesn't feel great by itself honestly
maybe it can work on the right script but I don't think GoS is going to be that script

sour harness
#

Math was objectively the better option tho bc nobody suspected starting vortox

sour harness
next marlin
#

I've had some games as the drunk where if I randomly became the demon halfway through I would have immediately self-nommed and outed

sour harness
#

You should bluff that as a minion

next marlin
#

Nah would be too emotionally manipulative

#

But droison spam customs can produce some really agonizing drunk games

#

(especially if the ST is being funny and makes you a drunk something that has a very hard time working off its own info because "long no dashii cord is a fun idea" or similar)

indigo osprey
next marlin
#

These are...bottom 0.5% of games

#

I don't play scripts anymore with the droison density to cause antifun unsolvable droison spam

indigo osprey
#

but this isn't even necessarily related to droison spam?

next marlin
#

But I had some super suuuuper rough games when new to customs

indigo osprey
#

you talked about the specific circumstance of being a drunk into fang gu

#

that could literally be a game with one source of drunk on the script

#

I mean

next marlin
#

If people are talking about a personal experience they've had, then they are talking about the context of those personal experiences, and not every possible form of a thing

indigo osprey
#

I had a player who did something which imo is similar: was the demon who was snake charmed and just refused to help good, causing evil to win

#

that one game caused bad blood between a bunch of people for a long time

hollow oasis
#

yea

indigo osprey
#

from my perspective; drunk/fang gu works great

#

the drunk should get info that helps evil anyway

next marlin
#

I've played games where I was an unsolvable drunk who was evil in basically all worlds because almost no one had sober info, and was completely breaking down under the strain, and if I randomly became the demon in a game like that I have no idea how I'd handle it

hollow oasis
#

drunk fang gu works without poisoner

indigo osprey
#

so a drunk turning into evil works great in that respet

#

if you think a script is droison spam, I think you should mention that before the game starts

austere steppe
#

Mechanical solves are not required for a fun game, or needed for good to win.

flat lintel
#

10/27 - if yall could teach a college level course on something related to botc, what would it be?

sour harness
zenith lotus
#

that would be so fun

sour harness
#

Like, not the intro stuff

zenith lotus
#

i would totally organize debates

flat lintel
#

what would you teach in that class

#

i would probably teach a course on Insane Homebrewing or Social Manipulation

indigo osprey
#

The first year course 'How to world build as good' and the second year 'How to world build as evil'

flat lintel
sour harness
#

Pithag plays that are literally anything other than "make a fang gu and some outsiders"

#

Generally just how to make the most of all of the minions

#

And vigor in particular

#

You know what, SnV evil masterclasses

hollow oasis
#

Pithag makes minions for the vigor to kill goblin

sour harness
#

Who cares about the good team

hollow oasis
#

That was how i won a game

sour harness
#

Nice

hollow oasis
#

(Vigor killed a good Cerenovus(No one trusted them) And they made the evil team mad

#

Then my pithag made outsiders that I killed every time

#

(This was NOT coordinated)

#

(Also that cerenovus made the savant or the juggler poisoned, I don’t recall)

pseudo fulcrum
hollow oasis
#

Probably just a lecture on legion

#

ngl

pseudo fulcrum
#

Speculated script it's on

zenith lotus
#

nice

pseudo fulcrum
#

Homework: Make a script with the character

hollow oasis
#

Probably need a class on script building before that

#

Ngl

zenith lotus
#

its one of the required classes i imagine

pseudo fulcrum
#

that's why it's "Not for beginners"

hollow oasis
#

(It’s hard, as shown by online lobbies)

#

I’ve seen pros suck at it

zenith lotus
#

basic courses in the characters, playing, STing, script building, maybe homebrewing

hollow oasis
#

It’s the difference between a composer and a musician

vale oxide
#

I'd be a student

hollow oasis
#

Actually

#

The LegLoT loudness scale

#

(The name can be changed)

sour harness
#

Go on

#

Like, demon loudness? Or what's bluffable by certain demons? Or what

hollow oasis
#

The Legion/LordofTyphon Minion loudness scale

indigo osprey
#

LoT with baron, poisoner, scarlet woman and marionette

sour harness
#

I mean like

#

LoT is good with silence but it's also fine with some volume if you do it right

#

Like, no viziers or psychopaths

#

But a harpy or a widow is fine

hollow oasis
#

Not like

#

Fun or anything

#

Just (Is the evil team fucked/can legion bluff this well*)

hollow oasis
indigo osprey
#

Script: Vizier, Psychopath, Organ Grinder and Fearmonger

#

Demon: Legion, Lord of Typhon, Lil Monsta

hollow oasis
#

No.

indigo osprey
#

HAVE FUN

hollow oasis
#

The sun is a deadly lazer.

indigo osprey
#

everything is a deadly laser if you are close enough

hollow oasis
#

(It’s a bill wurtz reference)

sour harness
#

Like, even baron can be passable

#

I still don't love it but it's not instant script jail

#

Legion tho

hollow oasis
#

Vizier is instant script jail

sour harness
#

Yeah you're not getting out of that

hollow oasis
#

Say it

sour harness
#

Alch makes it... playable(?)

hollow oasis
#

And legion

#

Unless invest

#

But still

sour harness
#

Legion is less bad if alch is on script

hollow oasis
#

Try bluffing that in legion

sour harness
#

Frame the alch lol

#

I agree it's not great

hollow oasis
#

(You can’t even murder the alch)

#

(BRUH)

indigo osprey
#

I personally think legion - but I haven't tested thi syet - is best with minions like cerenovus, harpy, etc.

hollow oasis
#

Not cere

#

Again, madness breaks confirm not legion

indigo osprey
#

that is fine

#

it's the opposite that is the issue

#

'confirms not legion' is great

hollow oasis
#

Reducing worlds is the opposite of that

sour harness
#

Why are you insta executing madness breaks anyway

hollow oasis
#

(This is why witch sucks on SNV)

sour harness
#

Cere is mostly legion bluffable

hollow oasis
#

Not good enough

indigo osprey
#

If your reasoning is 'witch is bad on SNV', I'd say you are better of rethinking your position

sour harness
#

Harpy is actually just legion bluffable

#

With a good ST

hollow oasis
#

Harpy works

#

(If ya kill em at night)

indigo osprey
#

I have a script - not on this pc unfortunately - whereby all minions require legion to actively have to bluff that certain minions are in play

hollow oasis
#

(As you do)

hollow oasis
indigo osprey
#

so the interaction is that if TF's are subject to certain minions (cerenovus, harpy) the goodies know it isn't legion

#

and that's fine

hollow oasis
#

I mean yea

#

That’s not…. Good

#

Outed legion fucking SUCKS

indigo osprey
#

you are flipping causality

sour harness
#

This is a one directional thing

hollow oasis
#

Barely

indigo osprey
#

'knowing it isn't legion' =/= 'outed legion'

sour harness
#

It's like giving heretic as a bluff. That's fine to do

hollow oasis
#

(Knowing it isn’t legion by a lot of sources causes people to meta legion,which isn’t a good thing anyway)

sour harness
#

Telling the evil team there IS a heretic is the problem

indigo osprey
#

knowing it isn't legion is fine because in the case of cerenovus/harpy, it's only one person that knows it

hollow oasis
#

That assumes the Cerenovus doesn’t move

indigo osprey
#

unless they explode publically, which is a cerenovus execution for the benefit of knowing it isn't legion

#

and that's fine

hollow oasis
#

How is that

#

Helpful for the evil team

indigo osprey
#

you had an execution

#

which is the point of cerenovus

hollow oasis
#

Removing an entire demon choice from play is not a good thing

sour harness
#

This dynamic exists on snv tho

#

That's just how cerenovus works

indigo osprey
#

you are aware that happens all the time in BOTC, right?

#

like

hollow oasis
#

From a minion?

sour harness
#

If you as a ST are immediately executing any madness break, you're probably hurting the evil team unless they ask for that

hollow oasis
indigo osprey
#

and you aren't looking at it from the opposite

#

when it is legion

hollow oasis
#

You can’t punish it

indigo osprey
#

legions have to fake these loud minions

hollow oasis
#

And that SUCKS