secret thing

[next marlin]

Game ended at f4 in a nominations triangle between everyone except the demon

[lean isle]

I had a game where I as Demon was almost executed on D2 because of Soldier doubleclaim and also had FT ping on me.
As result, other person falled back into Pixie (they were the Drunk), I got barely lifted off and ended up being confirmed, because of some weird stuff town pretty much locked the Drunk between 2 other players and world where me and Pixie were coevil didn't make a lot of sense.

[gray ridge]

Everyone was suspecting the demon, on final 3 he managed to convince everyone that the ministrel was just a demon sunking kills and evil won

[foggy grotto]

1. this was actually a game two days ago where i was the po, and the entire evil team was completely solved, and they knew i was specifically the demon and not the minion as we went into final 3. i knew i was cooked so i just nominated myself at the beginning of the day and told them to run it really fast no accusation or defense, and even though there was undeniable evidence saying i was the demon it messed up town enough that it only got 3 votes and evil team could tie off of me

2. also a lot of these games are evil getting stomped but winning, but there was this game of TB i played where we incorrectly assumed it was a spy game and outed all our roles, the sober FT in a drunk ping thought they were the drunk, and multiple false worlds were being built about who was evil, yet for some reason the demon bluffed empath with a 1 next to both of their minions individually and ended up getting them both killed. then we somehow built the world where the two minions were actually good and therefore the empath had to be evil and we killed the demon.

[sly crescent]

Griffindor when Potter caught the snitch with his mouth

[random tusk]

I heard my name?

B)

a multi-day game which ended in the final 3 like this:
(also, for multi-day purposes, the clockhand voting system wasn't used)

A: "Circle strat! I'll nominate B, B, nominate C, C, nominate me."
A nominates B!
B nominates C!
B: "C, your turn to nominate now."
C: "Why would I nominate my own demon?"

Guys I think evil won

OH and that one time entire good team figured out the phrase in a Yagga game but then players didn't vote on the nom itself

[sharp violet]

After some time, what are your thoughts on the new characters released in tandem with NRB?

Summoner
Banshee
Ogre
Alsaahir
Zealot
Lord of Typhon

: It's fine. It's kinda stressful though, being a good player and knowing that you might have to prepare yourself mentally for being the Demon randomly. 5/10

: This character feels weak honestly but I can't deny that it's fun as hell. Really fun bait role but kinda awkward to put on scripts, it is kinda weak but I enjoy it. 7/10

: It's kinda swingy but the dynamic is usually fun in bigger games. Also a fun bluff and fun when it really feels like someone is on your side. 8/10.

: I just don't like playing it in big games. It's kinda annoying because a million people claim Alsaahir and I don't really remember the info, and there's often not enough time to worldbuild around it. It's definitely better in small games but even then it's kinda ehh. Also pairs poorly with some of the more fun characters. 4/10

: It has its job as script filler but is kinda boring. 4/10

: I like the dynamic it brings, by design it can't really be the main character of the script but it's interesting design space. 6/10

[supple dirge]

I like summoner a lot. Its hard to put on scripts without multiple reasons no one died 2nd night, or other causes of death in the night besides the demon. Its usually really weak then really strong after night 3, it makes a unique dynamic after where town needs to scramble together new info to find the demon, which won't always be possible depending on who's left, and can end up feeling like a guessing game sometimes which is rough. I also enjoy turning good to evil so I like that as well.

I love ogre, its a unique character where you hard trust someone without any real info. Its fun to figure out your alignment and start working for your team, and its a great bluff.

LoT is interesting, its such a strong upside and strong downside if town ever figures out that thats the demon in play. I haven't played a lot with it to have a strong opinion but I like the dynamic it brings making players focus on seating arrangement.

Banshee and alsaahir I like about as much a normal townsfolk. Alsaahir can feel a bit weak if you have reasons there can be multiple demons like imp, fang gu, pit hag, the possibilities go up fast. Banshee is a fun bait role that doesn't get info just voting and nomination power which can be stronger a lot of the time. I like how differently it plays if it goes off.

Zealot is fine. Its a interesting bluff. I don't really want to put it on scripts with other evil creating characters since since it means evil needs 1 less vote to get majority if town is unlucky.

[foggy grotto]

On paper it sounds amazing but it’s really unfun to fight against. Quite fun to play as tho. 4/10

Another demons bane is always great and it’s a very fun and versatile role, no issues 10/10

Very fun to play as and around, can be swingy at times but that’s a script issue 9/10

When i came out i thought it was OP, now i think it’s very weak. only saw a win once but it’s power definitely scales the longer it lasts. also STOP PUTTING IT ON A SCRIPT WITH PITHAG ITS UNSOLVABLE 6/10

I jokingly guessed the ability days before it came out because it was so stupid that it would never become a character. then it did. Silver Lining is Snitch is no longer my least favorite outsider 1/10

Definitely a weak demon but fun concept, I haven’t played enough with it to fairly judge it 7/10

[sly crescent]

they are all fine, but i agree with Karniv - Alasaahir's negative info sounds really cumbersome to remember and use in live; that's kinda fine too though the wincon is massive already i bet there are/will some games where a minion was socially found because they too much didn't want to be locked as minion for Alsaahir reasons

tandem with NRB - love the content, not great to have derp mistakes / old rulings but the content overwhelms the positive feelings for me

[next marlin]

Not as much to say about the others, but Banshee is my favourite bait role by a mile
It fits lots of places -- the way it changes the game when it procs is very different to other bait roles and generally more viable for evil to work with
In particular, because it gains a lot of power without gaining any info, a banshee in a tunnel can really throw the game, meaning evil is incentivized to get banshees on-side and kill them rather than the usual bait role play pattern of "never die"
This also makes it compatible with grim peekers in a way bait roles don't tend to be
It's also just super fun, everyone loves a banshee proc, the mood in town is fantastic

[sly crescent]

for me Banshee mainly guarantees good nom in f3 (unless it's like Fang Gu +Banshee or BH's evil tf), so yeah it's defo a soft trap and as such should be activated sometimes on purpose

i guess if it's all evil f3 the Pukka can poison Banshee 🤷 but u know, most of the time it wont be any of those

[sharp violet]

Banshee isn't like bad for me for a script, it's just like I always end up finding another bait role more suited for the job

[sour harness]

Silver Lining is Snitch is no longer my least favorite outsider

lol

[gray ridge]

is rather hard to build around and only works with specific stuff, and I honestly would not like randomly becoming the demon as a Townsfolk, but it's pretty interesting. 5/10

I usually don't like playing bait roles, but this one is a exeption since it is so funny if you proc, way more than RK/Farmer. 10/10

actually a pretty cool outsider, you can trust someone even if you have no info on them. There's also the perk of saying you are the "ogre that chose you" to everyone and see who believes it. 8/10

Very weak but also pretty fun to play as. It's an annoying bluff since everyone will start to claim it and lose a lot of time before nominations. Also having to guess specifically demons and minions is very annoying for imp/fang gu/lil monsta/etc games 5/10

kinda boring as a concept but voting on everything is actually so fun. But I don't like the fact it's a more "do nothing" outsider than "affects town negatively" outsider. 4/10

It's alright I guess, it's whole mechanic is getting +1 minion with the downside of everything being on a line which I don't find that interesting. 6/10

[karmic slate]

: Probably overhyped on release and has now died down over time. Not easy to script build with but a really fun character to do so. I think overtime it'll become more interesting.

: On release I didn't like it. I didn't think it was impressive or powerful. Over time though absolutely loving it! Much more flexible than you think and on some good scripts!

: One of the best recent releases I'd say. Nuanced and flexible. But its concept both mechanically and thematically really carry it

: I think my favourite release here. It's really interesting and can be put on good puzzle-y scripts.

: I think it needs a bit more time to really shine like Ogre did but I love the simplicity of it. Will be excited to see where it goes in the future.

: Conceptually really cool but yeah one of the lower exciting releases. However I think it just needs time to settle and find scripts where it fits as a hidden threat and world

BONUS

: Love it! It's a really interesting tool to use as a script builder and I do hope it gets a good reception as the releases come

[young sonnet]

Alsaahir love is crazy Paradox

So many scripts it's basically useless (Fang Gu, Imp, Legion, LM, LoT, Summoner) or it's strong af with stuff like Leviathan or Psycho/ET or clockmaker w/o enough n1 misinfo to feed a small village

[pseudo fulcrum]

100% agree with alsaahir being the best release of that set tbh

alsaahir love on top

[fast anchor]

it's not as splashable as scriptwriters seem to think it is. the concept is super interesting but it's difficult to make work, plus it kinda sucks to play around in longtext games 5/10

it's another demonbane, this one's just solid and super fun to play with. 7/10

Probably the best of this batch, it's simple and good for when you need outsiders that kinda-hide themselves but a poli is too much. 9/10

Super weak in practice, most of the time people don't really get to consider the worlds they eliminate when they use their ability. It's difficult to scriptbuild around and I'd rather just have slayer instead on most scripts. 4/10

ehh I guess? It's not BAD or anything but I never build a script and think "you know what this needs? a Zealot." 6/10

fun concept! Difficult to scriptbuild with. It's cool and a sort of hybrid between normal Demons and Legion, but I'm not convinced it fills either niche especially well. 5/10

[young sonnet]

I think your takes are the closest to what I agree with

[karmic slate]

So don't put it on those scripts 😛

Though Axolator's point is very reasonable; very rarely do I hear players say "nah the Alsaahir guessed that world" and it does feel much more "Slayer" like in a sense that it's either an immediate win or nothing

[sour harness]

With zealot I have thought that exactly once and unfortunately I do really like that script

[pliant grail]

second least favorite minion right now- it's fine ig but but it feels like people splash it and you can't splash it

I like it fine, but due to th confirmation it's similarly difficult to fit on to scripts
love it, no notes
fine, rare I see a script it really shines on
it's cool, I like it
haven't played it enough to say

[indigo osprey]

(Don't put a Alsaahier on a leviathan script: it's not very fun)

[barren zenith]

Why not?

[sour harness]

^ I'm curious

That seems like a good combo to me, though I haven't played it

[indigo osprey]

Too many possible world combinations, very little possibility to narrow it down

at least in a 'normal' game you can exclude some possibilities as potential demons because... they are dead (lets ignore fang gu and imp)

[sour harness]

Oh that's valid actually

[indigo osprey]

I had a 15 player game recently: 4 evils; try and guess who is the demon and minions even if you know all evils, that's at least 4 different combinations. And knowing 'who is evil' is horrendeous to start.

[sour harness]

Yeahhhhh lol that'll take most of the leviathan days

In 7p games there's a 1/3 chance of getting an alsaahir win randomly lol

No wait

1/6

[barren zenith]

It's not like the alsaahir is making their guesses without info, other TF (like the FT, knight, investigator, etc) can guide the alsaahir to make educated guess

[indigo osprey]

who says that knight, investigator, fortune teller is good?

[barren zenith]

Nothing, but they can still help

[indigo osprey]

yup, but that doesn't change the fact that there are are lot of theoretical worlds

like: it's not enough to find the demon

you also have to find allt he minions

which is just... very difficult to do meaningful

[wispy nest]

No because you need the to guess the minion and demon exactly

[sour harness]

6 permute 2

Is 30

You get 5 shots

5/30=1/6

[wispy nest]

Oh

[sour harness]

I said 1/3 because at first I did choose instead of permute

[young sonnet]

Depends on player count: broken in teensy and REALLY strong at 7-8 players

[gray ridge]

Arent both leviathan and alsaahir speculated to be on GoS

[supple dirge]

Leviathan is, I don't think there's any consensus on alsaahir

[pseudo fulcrum]

that's more for #speculation-and-spoilers tho

[copper quail]

on the paper the role is quite interesting but after seeing it I don't really like the dynamic of having to throw 2 days of your socials as good in a Summoner game and I don't think it works on a lot of scripts 5/10

My favorite demon bait role as someone who doesn't like to play them, Banshee is just fun and can be really powerful 8/10

I loooove so much Ogre since that's how I sometimes play as Poli (outing Poli to a player and playing for their team until the end) and it is a very fun outsider. 10/10

I loved the role when it has been announced but it has a lot of issues
Super hard to trigger and I think even if I am not a script builder I would rather put a Slayer than Alsaahir unfortunately
If the script doesn't have ways to solve who is rather demon/minion then it is even harder 5/10

Well it has the merit to be simple and it is not a bad role but not that good? I think I just prefer Butler but why not I have never seen a game with that role tho 6.5/10

It doesn't super work well with a lot of minion and its only power being +1 minion even if strong makes the evil team even more vulnerable. I think you need to start killing some minions during the night to have a chance 🙈
But yeah not a huge fan of the role even if the concept is original and super interesting 5.5/10

[supple dirge]

Typhon also gives all minions a free bluff which can be very useful

[copper quail]

That's true indeed, my bad!

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: You are playing Whalebucket Draft:

1. Choose 3 townsfolk, 1 outsider, 1 minion, 1 demon, and 2 characters of any type, from any script (released characters only, no homebrews), and you will receive one of them
2. No atheist, legion, heretic, philo, pithag, engineer, or kazali
   What are your choices?

I have trouble picking my third townsfolk (cult leader? a sufficiently wild alchemist?), but Dreamer/Savant/Politician/Spy/Widow/Cerenovus/Fang Gu

Artist, maybe

If I think poli will be less fun in context, Puzzlemaster (maybe PM over poli in total, they're very close)

[sour harness]

Are we doing for power or fun

[ivory ridge]

no pithag it's so joever

[next marlin]

For whatever you want!

[sour harness]

This is going for fun

If only I could add like 10 minions lol

[next marlin]

Yeah I feel like it's obvious which character type I had the easiest time filling (though if anything I'd most prefer cere or widow + lil monsta)

[ivory ridge]

how would marionette work in this draft?

[next marlin]

Choose tokens you wish to see, they might be drunk/mario/lunatic

[ivory ridge]

this...might not be the best selection meta wise (0 info role)

but it's great at fucking people over 🔥

[next marlin]

Don't worry 15 people are going to pick savant so there'll be info

[ivory ridge]

so real for that

[lean isle]

So true...

[ivory ridge]

i was wondering if i should put zombuul in but i don't think zombuul is fun for anyone in play 😭

[next marlin]

The one time I was an engineer in whalebucket I made a zombuul. I have been informed by one of the other players that he still has nightmares

I think real whalebucket draft has a "no engineer" clause though so I should probably edit that in

[ivory ridge]

aw shuck

now i have to repick

[supple dirge]

powerful characters and characters I haven't been before.

[next marlin]

What do you want to alchemize into

[sharp violet]

[next marlin]

(my third townsfolk would be alchemist-godfather if I trust the ST allows that but it's probably safer to go artist)

[ivory ridge]

i've never play whalebucket before so quick questioon but do people normally choose for the 2 last slot (any type)? minion & demon?

[supple dirge]

Vizier, that'd be funny lol

[next marlin]

Anything you want

[foggy grotto]

no engineer?

this is a sad day for the 7 (seven) engineer fans out there

[next marlin]

(Kenoboi and his 6 clones)

[sharp violet]

7 fans, 49 appreciators, and 343 enjoyers (i am one of these)

[foggy grotto]

[sharp violet]

That's 9 characters

[foggy grotto]

yeah you can do 2 of anything

[sharp violet]

yeah and you put 3 of anything in

[foggy grotto]

wait what did i miscount

[sharp violet]

3 minions and 2 demons

[foggy grotto]

oh true

fixed

[next marlin]

Yagga over fang gu is fun

[foggy grotto]

i love yaggababble

since i yap so much in games

[lucid crag]

[foggy grotto]

town crier is crazy

other ones i get tho

[lucid crag]

Reading people evil is easy part, figuring out which evils are minions vs demon is the hard part

[next marlin]

Compensation for the only other info role being the 15 savants

[lucid crag]

maybe would swap it with flower girl but just seen too many get ruined by everyone voting

[sour harness]

Amnesiac alters setup to let there be all 9

[fast anchor]

[sour harness]

I almost went damsel as well

However philo was banned smh

[fast anchor]

oh u right

hmm

[fast anchor]

fixed 🤩

[sour harness]

ACRO TF MENTIONED 🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[gray ridge]

[sharp violet]

old or new OG?

[patent elbow]

There’s a new og?

[sharp violet]

Instead of not dying if they don't vote, they can choose to make themself drunk or not each night

from Steven's twitter

[sharp violet]

+

[gray ridge]

new

[foggy grotto]

you scare me

[copper quail]

[next marlin]

11p grim :) (it ended up being lil monsta because I could not make a demon configuration that 1. felt balanced and 2. didn't produce +2 evils because everyone wanted to be the goon)

Magi lm jinx sounds funny in whalebucket

[lucid crag]

Town crier in lm game, I've simply made a great pick

(tho spy can hide pretty well and puzzle gonna be a hell of a ride)

[next marlin]

Is it optimal to give the baby to the spy all the time? Yes
Am I going to insist on holding the baby the entire game so I can be an acting cere in f3? 100% yes

[lucid crag]

Math + at least makes spy a small miniscule smidge less crazy strong

unless math gets cere locked, then good cri /j

[next marlin]

Yeah I chose the puzzledrunk on this grim on the basis that "puzzledrunk savant + spy-tc interaction" produced the most interesting math numbers

[lucid crag]

I do find poli + spy + lm an affront to god though

[next marlin]

Yeah that one's a bit much, too many people wanted extra-evils outsiders and goon didn't have enough picking roles

Just ST-kill the poli early so they play for good, ez

[lucid crag]

if magician is big brain can force baby on baron

[next marlin]

[dense hound]

aw damn I meant to answer this but i got sidetracked

[next marlin]

12p grim 👀

I'll just put you down as ravenkeeper, ez

[dense hound]

AAAAH

THE VOICES

Nah I'd simply have to be my favourite traveller since I join late

Barista

[next marlin]

We all know what the only reason to ever put a barista in a game is

(everyone wanting to be extra evils characters makes this surprisingly tough lol)

[dense hound]

and now we barista double that puzzledrunk savant 7 days in a row

[next marlin]

Noo I need to cerelock 2 people or I'll die

4 savant statements per day DOES sound funny though

I love how this grim is hard "you think PM is a townsider? lol no"

[dense hound]

also magician is gonna snipe baron trust me

since theyll figure it out from outsider claims

[next marlin]

I'm just going to cerelock the magi until they finally give up and I can hold the baby

(me when I get executed in f3 holding the baby:)

[dense hound]

actually curious, does a barista doubled magician pick two minions

probably not but funny in this grim

[next marlin]

Let's not and say we did

[next marlin]

Slight variant where town's info is a tiny bit less fucked

Minions nominating every single day to repeatedly get TC yeses on the alch-vizier:

[dense hound]

😭

you just know that magician would be tryna bait the vizier out

[foggy grotto]

how does spy LM work with magician

i assume all the minions + magician are blank

[next marlin]

I have no clue

Given the minions learn the magi as a demon (and thus know it's LM+magi by minion count excluding LoT) it'd probably be pretty obvious

I like the second grim better

It's arguably playable

Love the "spy regs as a minion if the alch-vizier nominates and a townsfolk if he doesn't" trick

[hollow oasis]

alch vizier has a jinx

alch vizier can only push on 3 people of any alignment

[next marlin]

Yeah, I was referring to TC info to frame the alch as an actual vizier

[hollow oasis]

ah

[gray ridge]

Magician and LM are jinxed

[next marlin]

Yes, the jinx is specifically the reason this grim works

[candid bluff]

I have finally found the Secret Thing™️

I am in the ingroup now

[fast anchor]

7/10: What's your BotC hot take?

Bonus: If you participated [the last time this question was asked](#1104980997470171177 message), do you still agree with that hot take?

[dense hound]

Sometimes roles being a worse/better version of other roles is actually fine, (obviously not where they do the exact same thing but better), but it can make it easier to fit that mechanic into scripts where the other version would be overpowered or underpowered depending what else is on script.

[hollow oasis]

Giving Legion 3 bluffs for the entire legion is bad for enjoyment

[austere steppe]

The drunk role can be all the outsider modification you need on a script

[sharp violet]

Whenever the topic of the power of roles come up, I hardly care about my own (or other people's) perceived power of roles and just look at statistics and draw my conclusions from there

[next marlin]

Most "fun ST tricks" in TB (e.g. using misreg to confirm the drunk as a townsfolk) are not particularly fun to play against, and the script as a whole tends to feel very arbitrary/pure-socials, which I don't particularly enjoy. Also, Spoisoner is completely busted and unfun for town in environments where the evil team can coordinate well (online with experienced players), which really cuts into TB's replayability -- I have to imagine that combo is way more balanced irl and particularly in the context the game was designed for, and with newbies.

Also: base 2 outsider counts are dramatically overrated, both 9p and 12p tend to be bad player counts for high-info high-shenanigans scripts (snv and a lot of customs) because scripts in this genre trend goodsided when town has more time than evil has firepower

Evil Twin is fun and much of its perceived non-fun comes from people immediately coming in with "oh no I'm a twin, this is the worst thing ever" attitudes and visibly carrying them throughout the game

[fervent canopy]

[this is my opiiiinion I know everyone plays botc diiiiferently] Having any “set plays” even if optimal (aka courtier-ing the DA every time) creates some really unfun meta, and spoils what I find the core enjoyment of the game, that being the reactivity and spontaneity of each game. Botc isn’t chess. It isn’t a war game. I don’t want to play it like it is :)

[sly crescent]

alchemist should be removed

it's borderline incompatible with most minion abilities and more are added requiring jinxes to sort of make them playable, it's never gonna be fine - replacing with amnesiac is better for 100% scripts

[lucid crag]

Oh well the thing is I would blindly trust that vizier claiming alchemist

[next marlin]

I like how the grim has two mechanically quiet minions, one mechanically semi-loud minion, and a goddamn alch-vizier

(and I tend to play shadowy puppeteer cerenovus)

[flat lintel]

We’re recycling, oh no

[foggy grotto]

Ignoring my High Priestess thesis, i think the Poisoner is a fundamentally flawed minion. It’s impossible to track and shatters all logical worlds by just allowing the possibility that the info is just wrong. I think this is occasionally tempered on TB by investigator or possibly an undertaker but too many times a game boils down to pure socials because of it

[spiral pollen]

This is true of customs yeah

It often doesn't work well off TB

[next marlin]

TB tempers poisoner by having a high density of YSKs ("they can't snipe us all" + pretty likely a poisoner is doing nothing by midgame) and by Investigator existing

But it's still painful there

Poisoner in general and Spoisoner in particular feel like first drafts for Widow

"here's our rough draft, now what's the version of this that's balanced and can be non-terrible to play against"

[spiral pollen]

I understand the frustration with spoisoner

3 minion TB is really difficult

Ok that's my hot take, I'm not a fan of 3 minion TB

It's ok but I just don't love it

[foggy grotto]

i think it’s stronger for good, since spy and baron are the “louder” minions in TB (still quiet but they have some noticeable tells) and at least 1 is guaranteed to be in play

[spiral pollen]

no

[foggy grotto]

but yeah solving that last one can be tough

oh ok

[next marlin]

Spy is a super interesting minion because it's mechanically silent in a way no other minion is, but can be socially ultra-loud and shoot itself in the foot as a result

Stuff like 5 minute conversations with the demon, ludicrously 'optimal' kill patterns, etc tend to get town going full bore into Spy Counterplay, which is extremely strong

I think much of "spy weak lmao" comes from people trying to be optimal spies and ending up as agonizingly suboptimal spies

[sour harness]

The truth is overrated

Also TB is just okay

[sour harness]

Like I don't have a problem with it per se (maybe at base 2 outsiders I do), but I just like the other base scripts so much better

Last time I played TB was a 15p game where the drunk virgin was kinda obvious, then got seen by a UT, then the baron got seen by the UT, also all the outsiders read super socially good and I (recluse) bluffed a tf to try to bait the evil team into bluffing outsider and they never did

Free confirmation of 4 players, 3 of which were alive

[vale oxide]

Butler is an okay character, but a lot of people here say it's amazing and I don't agree with that

It's nothing special

A "3 for 3" claim is dumb, just hard claim or give a 2 for 2.

In most cases, maybe not with like Ojo

[next marlin]

I think much of this is just overcompensation (often semi-ironically) from how often people will slander butler for no clear reason

[fast anchor]

we've recycled before this and we'll recycle again

the era of semi-infrequent reuse is now, old man

[barren zenith]

Is there anything good about butler?

Imo it's just kinda boring to play as/with

[next marlin]

It's better than the replacements people try make for it

[foggy grotto]

it’s kinda fun to strategize who’s going to vote with you so that you can vote optimally

[next marlin]

None of the tb outsiders are scintillating to play tbh (I like being recluse because you're a funni walking pile of chaos in a solvable way, but some towns are dumb about recluses)

If your towns are dumb about recluses then butler is probably the least bad to play because you get a minigame out of it

[sour harness]

Butler is also amazing for socials

[next marlin]

I'm an infobot, what are socials

[sour harness]

Which is relevant to the minigame

[next marlin]

Oh I would give "stop killing recluses for no reason" as a hot take but I'm not sure that even counts

Once I ran a game where the entire evil team was solved d1 and they still killed the recluse for no reason

[vale oxide]

Bruh

[dense moat]

Not a very hot take, but I still maintain that Psycho using their ability on themselves is a very good strategy & something basically any player getting the role should at least consider. You really dont wanna make a F3 with you in it as confirmed not Demon

[indigo osprey]

I mean: with you alive final 4 is final 3, because you can always kill someone if town sleeps

[barren zenith]

Town can get a mayor win if you kill yourself (as the psychopath) also the extra evil vote (even if you're outed evil) can be super useful

[sour harness]

Why is there a mayor living that long if you're a psycho

Unless you're a surprise psycho

Who never killed until f5 or later

[barren zenith]

Idk it's just a weird scenario that could come up

[next marlin]

Hystrex I need to say just how much I appreciate the react here, 10/10

[dense moat]

Tbf the Mayor win is a large part of what I meant

[young sonnet]

Agreed

Butler is a good outsider for a beginner script. Trying to call it the best/most fun outsider is Stockholm Syndrome

[fast anchor]

i do dislike alchemist but I also think it is interesting with Heretic

i don't think we really have the Minions released to make it work as like, an actual character, but it's a fun concept

[gray ridge]

I love alchemist

Its pretty funny

[dense moat]

I like alchemist, but that monster bends scripts around itself

So far, BMR ones are the most realistic, but I hope we get better Alch food eventually

[young sonnet]

Yeah we need a lot better minions than what we have/know about from leaks

[sour harness]

^^^ are the only ones I genuinely like with alchemist and they both have huge script considerations especially with alch

Shoutout to for being funny

Like, with other good sided exe survival is broken

But without, it's totally fine

[pseudo fulcrum]

Counter Hot Take: Alchemist is great and works with way more minions than people think, you just need to script right.

[sour harness]

Well then show us some examples

(fwiw I have a script with but I wouldn't really compare it to your typical script lol)

[pseudo fulcrum]

great on varied death scripts
also great on varied death scripts
great with other execution survival possibilities
can be very useful to prevent evils from nominating/getting them killed
possibly the best alchemist ability
great on the right script
very powerful but balanced by the fact that viziers are no longer confirmed evil
& are a bit trickier to make work but they're still pretty ok

[sour harness]

Oh yeah I prob should've included alch goblin tbh

I'm not a huge fan but knowing a goblin is out of play is fun

Could you elaborate on DA

Because other exe survival seems to be the thing that makes that broken

You know there's no evil DA

And you know where the DA choice isn't

So anyone else who survives execution is just confirmed good or lleech

(or vizier but you probably knew that already)

((same with psycho))

[pseudo fulcrum]

really? i would've thought that the DA being confirmed not the demon would be too strong, also it means that the DA is kinda forced to claim alch or else everyone knows a DA is in-play if someone doesn't die

[sour harness]

I mean the demon can claim alch DA when there's a real DA

And more importantly, evil DA is what makes stuff like TL and sailor bluffable

Also you have witch on your list lol

That's just a stronger version of what you're talking about

[fast anchor]

works exclusively with heretic; it is a better exorcist
this is funny, just a good alch minion
can potentially be an outsider, think before you put it on
is strong but not very fun? the good part of the ability is knowing there isn't a DA, not actually having the ability
same brand of funny as assassin. also a good alch minion
very good alch abilities

also works exclusively with heretic

works with heretic or legion (or both if you're a maniac)

are just super super strong (baron can be weak if your outsiders can't come out but it still is super confirmy)

is a meme, but it's a meme i haven't had enough experience with to pass judgement on. the only script i've seen it on was solo LM where it was interesting but also that script had goblin

[pseudo fulcrum]

100% disagree with the whole "Alch Poisoner is a better exorcist" thing, exorcist doesn't let you poison other townsfolk abilities in the process (which you will almost certainly do)

[gray ridge]

I think a better wording for it would be high risk high reward exorcist

[supple dirge]

Alch poisoner can also work with lil monsta where kills can still happen every night

[sour harness]

Wait wait

[next marlin]

Yeah every single alch pois I've ever seen in play has been disastrously negative utility

I think that's probably a bad sample but it's striking

[lucid crag]

I think alch works best on lil monsta scripts

if there's 5 minions on the script

[flat lintel]

but but but

[cloud plover]

Anything other than a 1f1 is bad; learn to bluff or get out of my whispers 😤

Uuuuuuuh, what else

Social info is bad; HP and general are fundamentally flawed

(takes phrased aggressively for sake of hotness)

Scripts need 3-4 YSK otherwise D1 tends to be sad with nobody really wanting to be executed and nobody having a good reason to execute anybody else

Sailor and Innkeeper are bad because I don't want to have to deal with indeterminate effects

[fast anchor]

could you expand on this a little more? this take is fascinating and want to suss out why we don't agree

because "indeterminate effects" (and by that I assume you mean ST discretion) affect way more than just Sailor and Innkeeper in BotC

five off the top of my head: recluse, gossip, sweetheart, mayor, vortox

[sour harness]

Any form of droison, spy, tinker

[fast anchor]

okay droison in general is the gimme

[sour harness]

Fine

Spy and tinker then

[supple dirge]

I'd usually want to execute someone who doesn't want to die day 1. I'm ok going for a start knowing role for undertaker, cannibal etc first day but still would rather risk killing someone fighting to stay alive.

[lost thistle]

"and nobody having a good reason to execute anyone else"

may i introduce you to:
social reads

anyways here is my hot take:
"execute a ysk d1" meta is bad

because you're not killing an evil!
you're just going for somebody just because of their claim and as a result won' even gain much from analyzing voting patterns

try to kill an evil d1

instead of the first person to go "hey everyone you should execute me"

[lost thistle]

because that is Not going to be the demon

[dense hound]

I actually played a game in a group I knew were like this so bluffed it day 1 as demon and won

[sharp violet]

I used to be super hard on killing people who didnt want to die

But now my hot take is that if someone really doesn't want to die on day 1, I rarely vote for them

I value fun over optimization at this point, and I'd rather just have the player have fun with whatever role they really want to play

[cloud plover]

Y'know what, this is a very accurate assessment and I wonder if I went too far off the "phrase things aggressively" side

I do know I'm not a fan of Sailor and IK though... maybe I misdiagnosed the cause

"indeterminate effects" in terms of poison being "might", recluse/spy misregisters being "might", I am fine with

But going one layer deeper to "this player or that player might be drunk" really bothers me for some reason

It might be because drunking players as Good feels like I'm hurting my team? People say "sailor can be executed for info," but that costs a whole execution and still relies on players predicting ST behaviour

I think the core of it might be that it's behaviour that isn't intuitive to the game. Like, I read "you might register as evil," and I have some idea of what's going on, but I read "you or this other person might be drunk," and now I am expected to have an extensive knowledge of potential ST behaviour, knowing what the ST priority for drunking each role on the script might be, and knowing all the edge cases... it feels unintuitive and a little unfair

[cloud plover]

My next hot take: Social reads are bad

Phrased more reasonably: people shouldn't be expected to rely on exclusively social reads, especially on D1. The whole reason I am playing Clocktower and not Mafia or Werewolf is because I like the mechanical puzzle, and I do not enjoy "you smell evil to me"

[ivory ridge]

social read are good because you learn what type of read people are looking for after playing with them extensively and gaslight them back 🔥

[cloud plover]

Social reads also promote social conflict in a way that I do not really enjoy. People have different behaviours in different situations, and while I will admit that chasing people down for that in the name of "I'm have a social read and that's a valid take" can sometimes work, it can also end up really poorly! I've pushed people in the name of "the socials are bad" before, and I've seen them just shut down and have a miserable time because there's no way to refute "you just feel evil," and then I spend a game feeling awful for doing it whether they were actually evil or not. I have also been on the receiving end of this, and I can confirm that it feels bad when you're just starting out, and it still feels bad a year into the clocktower rabbit hole.

I think my realest hot take here is that: "You should use social reads to motivate mechanical investigation, but pushing solely off socials is a strategy that a lot of people feel much too comfortable with and I don't think they realize how it can potentially make people feel."

[cloud plover]

I wish I was that guy, but I simply am not 😔

My aura is simply atrocious 😆

[ivory ridge]

btw what does 1f1 means
nevermind i got it

[dense hound]

There was one of my early games someone called me out as evil on a social read because I asked for them to repeat their third claim in a 3 for 3, and that was sus cause I "clearly didnt actually care about my role" and it really put me off my game cause I was just insanely anxious to be on voice

1f1 = one for one, basically tell each other your roles

[ivory ridge]

took me a second

normally i just say 3f3 or tell me yer role 😭

[cloud plover]

Imagine being able to keep track of 3 claims at once

Couldn't be me

[ivory ridge]

I am not a fan of innkeeper fr though

but that's because I assess ST as mechanically evil so

[cloud plover]

As IK I am finding the goon and picking myself and them for the rest of the game fr fr 😤

[tall raft]

Each night info roles give plenty of reason to execute others

[cloud plover]

Sometimes? I just like the early-game rush of info YSKs give

[agile sigil]

The last two times I've drawn innkeeper, I've bluffed Goon quite loudy, and it turns out there's been an actual Goon in the game that I pick night 2 both times

[foggy grotto]

not sure if this is a hot take but Fool is almost an outsider in BMR.

It silently hides death from town on a script where good needs death to solve, isn’t traceable, and isn’t even good science as it’s very easy to fake as DA. Don’t get me wrong, it has some utility and is definitely not actually an outsider in any way but it is definitely the weakest BMR Townsfolk and often has negative effects for good team

[austere steppe]

I think of fool as more of an anti demon tool, but I also think bmr is just bad for having too much st machina.

[vale oxide]

Sailor is the weakest townsfolk on almost every script it's on, and playing it is not fun

[fast anchor]

now that's a hot take

[austere steppe]

I'd rather be a sailor than a huntsman, that's for sure, but it's pretty close, and sailor really doesn't need to be on lleech scripts

[sly crescent]

no worries Heretic makes it ok

[sly crescent]

that's a nice lense to look through, executions are not just UT or confirmed not the demon (unless the usual stuff)

[gray ridge]

Kid named huntsman

Agreed with the second part tho

[sour harness]

I think sailor is part of bmr's well-oiled machine and it doesn't tend to work well elsewhere

Like minstrel, just less obviously so

[sly crescent]

not sure, definitely have to be in a rare mood to really enjoy playing sailor, but for me droble ping (librarian learning drunk) can be on average weaker than sailor and thats my benchmark for useless - i think sailor is not

[sour harness]

(...and zombuul and mastermind and DA and godfather and pukka and moonchild and goon and exorcist and fool and tea lady and pacifist and courtier)

[sour harness]

Librarian leaning drunk is super strong tho???

[sly crescent]

in tb specifically kinda yes because baron/not is a big thing, still easiest bluff ever and actual info might never solve which of the 3 is the drunk

[sour harness]

Oh yeah I'm thinking about TB

Librarian elsewhere tends to be a questionable choice

[sly crescent]

on custom script is where i'm thinking of it as useless

[sour harness]

Ok valid

[sly crescent]

just remove ut and add sentinel and it would be nothing in tb as well, that's basically what customising script looks like

[sour harness]

Well yeah

Lib/drunk/sentinel is a bad combo imo lol

[gray ridge]

Agreed with MM

Niche ass minion

[sour harness]

Oh absolutely, but it's also essential to bmr

[cloud plover]

My drinking with myself every night as the sailor 🙏

[foggy grotto]

wait i also agree with this

[foggy grotto]

DA and GF can work well on specific customs

[sour harness]

Well yeah but they're practically different characters if it's not a bmrlike

And that's fine ofc

[next vault]

Pacifist and Lleech work well together

As long as you don't paci save the lleech hosted player

Seriously, if you made Paci an outsider you are a bad ST, this is not a hot take, this is a fact

[fresh shard]

My hot take is that the Mayor should be allowed to bounce more than once and the fact it rarely does contributes to why the character is often ignored

[next vault]

mayor is allowed to bounce infinitely

it's just that a lot of STs don't allow them to do so

[fresh shard]

Oh yeah, I'm talking st decisions here

[sour harness]

Mayor should generally bounce

It should only fail to bounce if evil has no reasonable other counterplay

Framing the mayor is reasonable counterplay (in most cases)

[next vault]

I remember a TB game where everyone knew it was a Spy game so I just bluffed Butler and killed my Baron and Spy to make their fake info more believable

And I killed them with a catch, I tapped the mayor but asked the ST to bounce to either minion if they were going to bounce

Triple tapping the mayor 💀

I ended up winning but I was VERY scared of the Mayor

[sly crescent]

lol funny request. i would bounce to minion 10/10 probably in that case

[next vault]

Like, I knew I was gonna win unless mayor win, because who would be suspicious of a Butler on a Spy game who is confirmed by the FT who died at night?

[tall raft]

Not true

Librarian shines on custom scripts

[sour harness]

Like what

[tall raft]

Here Lies Tom Thumb for one

harold holts revenge for another

It's way more useable than investigator or washerwoman imo

[sour harness]

Can you post them

[tall raft]

#1250919497359954032 message

[tall raft]

https://bloodontheclocktower.com/custom-scripts/harold-holts-revenge

[sour harness]

Yeah so in base 0 games if you don't get lib 0 you just know it's a kazali

Sans ND

HHR looks like it works pretty well there, but I don't love the total lack of misinfo for it

[agile sigil]

Welcome to HHR

I had a game where I showed the Librarian the Damsel

Sure they're confirmed, town still executed the damsel to get the wincon out

[sour harness]

How exactly did town get to that point lol

Without losing to the damsel

[tall raft]

balloonist???

[sour harness]

Oh I'm blind sorry

I simply failed to perceive that

It's still on the good team tho, so it's a bit sketchy

[tall raft]

Widow

Marionette

[agile sigil]

Eh, I think it was basically taking it off the board. No real fear that minions were going to guess right then

[lucid crag]

I only think sailor is fun if st consistently makes it sober

but like barely anyone does it feels like

[hollow oasis]

You have to make it sober about 66-75% of the time to feel effective

(And yes, you can drunk an evil player)

[lucid crag]

I think sailor is wicked cool when you drunk it early but sober it late game

(bit op)

but it you sober it first 3 days, let it get confirmed, then keep it drunk I guess it's fine?

idk

I feel sailor is best when it causes no death nights

10/8/24 - We forgor a question today and there's barely any time left, what's your favorite color

[sharp violet]

blue

like townsfolk

[lean isle]

Red

Like evil

[sour harness]

Both
Like travellers

[gray ridge]

Yellow
Like fableds

[hollow oasis]

Green (I like breaking chains)

[gray ridge]

Im also not sure if this is a hot take, but some Outsiders feels more "Townsfolk" than Huntsman

[hollow oasis]

Moonchild comes to mind

Golem

[gray ridge]

Puzzlemaster, moonchild, tinker, golem

[hollow oasis]

(Old Acrobat lmao)

[lean isle]

Yeah, it's not really hot.

[gray ridge]

Klutz by a lesser extent

[lean isle]

Huntsman is weak.

[hollow oasis]

Puzzlemaster isn’t a TF

puzzlemaster is less good for the good team than huntsmen

(tinker should not be helpful. Why is it being ran that way.)

(You are not supposed to just cast 5th level smite)

[gray ridge]

Puzzlemaster is just "If you guess the Drunk, you learn the demon, but if not gain false info [+drunk]"

[hollow oasis]

Turns out that’s really hard

[gray ridge]

If anything it causes the same damage to town as Huntsman

At max

[hollow oasis]

it’s a weaker knight that drunks a guy

Huntsmen adding an outsider is a mistake

It should replace, not add

[gray ridge]

If Huntsman was more general I think it would be better as a Townsfolk

"Once per game, at night, choose a player: If they are an outsider, they get turned into a not in play Townsfolk (+1 Outsider)"

Makes it less specific

[hollow oasis]

+Damsel does not mean +1 Outsider

It means damsel must be in play

[hollow oasis]

If you do that allowing it to be in play should be allowed

Because of things like saint

And butler

(And +1 Outsider being used works better in this context)

[gray ridge]

Maybe

[hollow oasis]

(As this is not an info role, and the confirmation is good)

[gray ridge]

Could also be +0 to +1 outsider

[hollow oasis]

+1 is fine

No need because balloonist was unintentional

Huntsmen is SUPPOSED to make conf chains

[gray ridge]

Thats fair

[hollow oasis]

+1 helps with that

showing an out of play role might be too powerful tho

To the damsel

Or whatever outsider

After these changes

This is kinda like ||Blacksmith||

[austere steppe]

The puzzle master can generally learn d1 that one player is not the demon by just guessing randomly. It Def comes with downside, but it's probably stronger than sailor.

[young sonnet]

Calling PM stronger than sailor is a serious case of bad ST PTSD

PBSTSD

[hollow oasis]

Huntsmen does nothing or gives the damsel an out

Sailor should not be weaker than PUZZLEMASTER

Holy SHIT that’s bad ST’s

[foggy grotto]

MAKE PATTERS HUNTSMAN™️ REAL

[hollow oasis]

Public service announcement

Sailor

Can drunk the evil team

Shocking

I know

[tall raft]

Puzzlemaster?????????

[tall raft]

Klutz?!

[tall raft]

And they shouldn’t

Because sailor shouldn’t be a st controled occasional alch poisoner

They should be able to gather info from their immunity

If you drunk evil players, sailor is not good

[austere steppe]

I don't actually think I've ever seen a sailor drunk an evil before.

[sharp violet]

I will say is definitely an Outsider in terms of harm but I really like that it can feel like a Townsfolk who can earn positive value for the team rather than just mitigating their downside

[next marlin]

PM is an awesome role because it's an incredibly damaging Outsider that feels like a Townsfolk
But: it's an incredibly damaging Outsider, often the worst one on a script
The way it's designed makes it probably the single best Outsider in the game in terms of "being unambiguously terrible for town while still super fun to play and letting the player feel useful", when most Outsiders fail at the second of those, but it also gets it put on a lot of scripts where it's purely awful because its appearance is so deceptive

Similarly because it looks so much milder than it is a lot of less experienced STs will bagbuild small games with PM and a lot of other droison, which is brutal (I've seen 8p games with one sober townsfolk)

[ivory ridge]

PM is like a double drunk sometimes 😔

[ivory ridge]

how did this happen

that sound so rough 😭

no dashii poisoner pm?

[next marlin]

There was a No Dashii involved (least droison-spam No Dashii custom), a gf +1, and I forgot the last one

It might've been 7p

[ivory ridge]

question but

normally, how much source of droisoned are prsent in your script

[next marlin]

Very scriptbuilder-dependent, I have terminal snv enjoyer syndrome so I like semi-static trackable misinfo
My custom I've most run has widow+pm+sweetheart, plus non-droison misinfo (recluse, cere)

Statistically about half of all customs on botcscripts have poisoner, so there are a lot of droison spam enjoyers

[ivory ridge]

poisoner is such a nightmare minion for me 😭

[sharp violet]

Puzzlemaster is def top tier harmful

[ivory ridge]

choosing yourself as the puzzlemaster every night 🔥

the poor drunk player though...

[sly crescent]

PM in the right script is very strong outsidering. it can be weaker and help good team focus the chat on mechanics and often doesn't have to hide so the count is easier. interesting, fun and works well - it just is a great outsider

[dense hound]

its also a delicious bluff

[sharp violet]

I just realized almost every time I've played a puzzlemaster script, the ST wanted to put a puzzlemaster in so I haven't seen it bluffed lol

[sly crescent]

we don't have a q for today yet right?

[sharp violet]

Nope

[sly crescent]

second wednesday of the tenth month of 2024:
would Huntsman be more useful than designed if their play pattern was to blindly stab N1 and announce they are ysk +Damsel to the good team D1? or are there other ways huntsman can be played better to be more townsolky than it looks

[next marlin]

I think more than 50% of huntsmen I've seen have successfully found the damsel if the damsel survives d1

Probably way more, actually

Actively incorrect guesses rather than "damsel instasuicide making it impossible" are rare

(then sometimes the ST turns the damsel into an alch-organ grinder, but usually not)

[sharp violet]

Huntsman tends to be a good bluff for damsels too tbh

[sly crescent]

sample size and play group dependant, i've seen 0-1 finds that resulted in defusing

[sharp violet]

Low-medium risk, high reward

[ivory ridge]

wait i never thought of it that way

it make sense though

[sly crescent]

soft claims of huntsman from damsel, minion and huntsman are common, some luck involved but basically if the minion is not bold enough to guess usually on decent chances (worth) i know the turns do happen and main problem is perception - townsfolk turning 1-2 townsfolk into a high risk low reward situation; but i sometimes wonder if bunch of huntsman claims is the best way to play the duo

[lucid crag]

what if you drunk a spent assassin

[sly crescent]

doesn't count. just like drunking Po on N1 it only serves to obscure sailor's meta-info

but then again if that is meta, it is info 🤷

[agile sigil]

And if the Huntsman survives d1 - I had a game where I was the damsel playing outed huntsman but the real huntsman died n2 before they could use it

[agile sigil]

Oh yeah I had a game where the ST drunked the Shab N1. Which is iffy.

[hollow oasis]

Not always, just once a game at best.

On a script like BMR, Sailor isn’t the most damaging thing in the world if you drunk 1 evil player a game

[gray ridge]

It feels like both cause similar damage to town, which isnt a good thing considering one is a Townsfolk

[next marlin]

Huntsman +1 is a PM sidegrade, Huntsman +0 is a Townsfolk

There's no problem with Huntsman if it's always +0

This can be a big "if", though

[gray ridge]

Huntsman +0 feels like a filler role

Adds a problem and its only power is to solve that problem

[next marlin]

I think of Huntsman (+0) in the opposite direction -- it's a role that justifies Damsel's existence
Like, sure, there are people who enjoy being damsels, but otherwise damsel and chaos hatter are the two closest things in the game to a true "you need to get yourself d1 executed every time or else the game is going to be complete misery" outsider, and damsel has the inbuilt screw-you-lol of "if you're trying to get yourself killed, you get guessed"

I feel similarly about Mutant/Fang Gu, as it happens

Not everyone thinks this about either damsel or mutant, but I don't find their inbuilt dynamics without an escape hatch fun at all for me to play, so I don't particularly enjoy playing damsel scripts without huntsmen or mutant scripts without fangs gu

Damsel becomes interesting if it has outs that aren't "dying early and thus feeling detached from the whole game"

Fang Gu handles this for Damsel too, but having an option that keeps the damsel good is an interesting dynamic and encourages high-risk-high-reward plays

Huntsman-Damsel-Leviathan is also very cool, it's a race against time

(best on scripts where the damsel is brutally likely to get guessed otherwise)

[lost thistle]

evil idea but what if damsel was even if dead

[next marlin]

(I don't like damsel/barber for this reason)

[lost thistle]

the dastardly barber damsel,,

“lmao get barber swapped into the damsel have fun”

its on my bucket list as damsel to first thing of D1 publicly claim damsel and go “evil team guess me i dare you”

and then not get guessed

[next marlin]

"wanna do 2s?" "sure, heretic/damsel"

[lost thistle]

because evil think i’m not the damsel and am just trying to bait them out

[foggy grotto]

Patters Huntsman™️

[sour harness]

It can't be though, otherwise it restricts worlds too tightly at b0 outsiders to the point of sometimes being unbluffable

[next marlin]

I think that's the lesser evil between "requires other things to be bluffable at base 0" and "unambiguously terrible for town"

[sour harness]

Sure

I think it could use a rework tho

FoR moment

[tall raft]

Oh yeah

I’ve blocked huntsman +1 out of my mind

And I just don’t play huntsman scripts with anyone who would play it +1

[foggy grotto]

huntsman +1 is great for boffin tho

[flat lintel]

what is it

[lost thistle]

you've heard of active baron now get ready for active huntsman

... WAIT OH MY GOD

The Hunt..sman

[sharp violet]

Huntsman +0 or +1 makes sense on Midnight, at least from my experience playing Dusk

It may be necessary for Heretic otherwise Damsel announcement hard-confirms non-heretic to evil

But beyond that point, Midnight feels like a script that is more about both teams having factions of disconnected going for individually game-winning plays, and I expect the Outsiders won't be linearly harmful

[sour harness]

Is it just me or does damsel heretic feel terrible actually

[sharp violet]

Nah, I've played it a lot

The only time it sucked was when there was a cheater online who outed the Damsel during a Heretic game

[sour harness]

Minion: "wow I found this player whose entire job was to hide, that's really cool and I'm happy I was able to do that successfully"
ST: "congratulations to the good team lol"

There's some part of that that's a skill issue but I feel like I still have a point even though the evil team can just wait until later

[sour harness]

Ok but that one's just hilarious

[sharp violet]

I've had this happen, but it was even a bigger brain play by the Damsel

[gray ridge]

thats so funny ngl

[sharp violet]

They found a Heretic that they trusted and intentionally soft outed Damsel

[sour harness]

So then the damsel can just out and be like "oops maybe there's a heretic" and not spread misinfo

[sharp violet]

Yes

[sour harness]

Maybe it's just too different from the dynamic I'm used to? But I like hereticless damsel

[sharp violet]

Also why Damsel isn't even as harmful without a Heretic

[sour harness]

Wait wdym

[sharp violet]

Part of the dynamic of Damsel is just hard outing to find a Huntsman with the threat of Heretic

It's a social play, because most Damsels only do this when they highly suspect it's Heretic

[sour harness]

||also isn't goblin slated for MHD? (I'm deliberately avoiding full scripts and most unreleased characters so maybe I'm wrong) that one feels even worse||

[sharp violet]

Goblin feels pretty good

[sour harness]

Same idea as this

[sharp violet]

It's just kinda like no Minion plays like that when they know it's on the script

[gray ridge]

MHD feels mostly balanced around heretic being or not being in play

(like most Heretic scripts)

but MHD is more due to the huge amount of (theorized) wincons

[sharp violet]

Usually when evil sees a clear wincon their biggest goal is to bluff roles that might bait a Heretic into outing

[sour harness]

Ok but like what if they just don't

[sharp violet]

Skill issue

[sour harness]

:(

[sharp violet]

Heretics almost always out

[gray ridge]

then they misunderstood the theme of the script they are playing

[sour harness]

Man I just hope my intuition is wrong lol

[gray ridge]

its all abt bluffing stuff to reveal secrets or whateverr

[sharp violet]

I've played Dusk like 20+ times at this point thats why I know the dynamics lol

tbh the interactions I don't like are Legion Heretic and Legion Poppy Grower

Poppygrower is fine but overdone

But heretic actually just feels like crap with legion

[gray ridge]

Legion politician 😂

[sharp violet]

It's not on dusk

[gray ridge]

oh wait dusk doesnt have poli I think

yeah

[sour harness]

All the heretic scripts I've played basically boil down to "don't out heretic until f3"

[sharp violet]

Heretic needs to out to some people on dusk

[sour harness]

Hmm ok

[sharp violet]

Also it's actually very hard for evil to instawin with a outed heretic

Lil monsta, scarlet woman, imp, legion, alchemist scarlet woman

[sour harness]

LM is easy to insta win

Maybe not with SW but it's still not that bad

[sharp violet]

It's cause poppy grower / magician

[sour harness]

Ah ok

Having both feels... weird

But sure

[sharp violet]

I do think legion heretic is genuinely bad

Every time it just feels like some random sus person outs they were the heretic at the end and they look exactly the same as legion

With more townsfolk you usually get enough info to have some people backing a heretic

[gray ridge]

Ive watched a Dusk game and they had an imp starpassing to a minion and to an alch scarlet woman lol

[sharp violet]

Yeahh Imps need to consider that

[gray ridge]

MHD is probably the script I wanna know about the most but the one I wanna play the least ngl

Just curious to see how its going to work

[sharp violet]

It seems like it's going to be niche appeal

a lot of players won't play it but the players who do will be diehard players

[gray ridge]

Like bmr but more niche

Lol

[sharp violet]

Idk

Bmr is polarizing but people who play bmr tend to play other scripts

[austere steppe]

Depends how much st machina there is imo

bmr is a bit lame with how much the st controls decisions

[sharp violet]

I don't play bmr with st's without metas tbh

[sour harness]

Yeah I mean the ST matters on any script

I don't really wanna play SnV if vortox is making everything unfun. Which is very possible

N1: dreamer vortox
N2: dreamer vortox
N3 dreamer vortox
N4: dreamer vortox

Math & oracle numbers: 69 420 69 420

[sharp violet]

I kinda want to get a vortoxed 69 at some point lmao

[gray ridge]

10 y/o st

[sour harness]

Sure but that should be a one off in a known group

[sharp violet]

Yea

Definitely something with STs I know

[sour harness]

Also not a fan of TB if the recluse is the magician

Or the scarlet woman

Or confirms the slayer in f4

[austere steppe]

The swing choices on snv is like ET related (mutants, snakecharmers, dreamers etc.). BMR is like every role can have an ST make a choice that swings the game.

[sharp violet]

I feel like TB feels like the most ST controlled script even when they play within reason

[sour harness]

I'd say that both have a lot of ST choice, just very different kinds

[sour harness]

I disagree, TB feels super on rails when STing

[austere steppe]

Yeah sure, but snv is like "oh your info is bad, I wonder how detectable I'll make it for you"

[sour harness]

To the point where I try to avoid running it unless it's with new players

[sharp violet]

Possibility space it's easy, but I'm talking about how much the ST controls the game by putting the recluse in an invest ping

[sour harness]

It's also "lemme make the twins be the clock number away from each other" "lemme execute the ceremad player too fast" "lemme not telegraph a demon change properly" "surely I can give savant info on the fly and nothing will go wrong"

The last one is sometimes fine but very very easy to mess up

Ooh I forgot about ND too

[sour harness]

I just don't like invest lol

[sharp violet]

I'm kinda viewing this from the pov of like a competent st doing all 3 scripts

[sharp violet]

Ye I've started to hate that role

[sour harness]

You can meta me usually leaving invest out of the bag. Which is bad and I should stop that, but unfortunately it's true rn

[sharp violet]

TB has some subtle ST traps about metas now that I think of it

[sour harness]

Mhm

[sharp violet]

Some traps:

Never showing an Outsider in a Librarian Drunk ping

[sour harness]

It's just... Not that fun? Especially as a YSK, like if this was mid game info it'd be better

[sour harness]

Like lib sees drunk between outsider and "tf"?

Yeah that makes sense actually

[sharp violet]

I've seen a lot of games where evils bluffing librarian immediatedy get meta-outed by putting an Outsider in a Drunk ping

[sour harness]

Good point, maybe I'll do that next time I ST lol

[sharp violet]

Another thing is overdoing putting a Spy ping with an Undertaker or Washerwoman

librarians are always spies tho

[sour harness]

I've bluffed mayor as spy before lol

[sharp violet]

That's fun

[sour harness]

RK confirmed 😎

(they were the drunk)

[sharp violet]

LOL

Drunk ravenkeeper gives me memories of the most predictable ST play ever that I did not see coming

There was this player that we were doing a Revolutionary pair with and of all things she gets Virgin

She was paired with a Drunk Ravenkeeper and me and the rest of town fell for it so hard

[sour harness]

Oh incredible

[sharp violet]

Oh yeah also, the evil team was making up a chef 2

[sour harness]

What was the player count

[sharp violet]

2 minion or smthn

[sour harness]

Tbf it's more likely if there's a rev pair

[sharp violet]

Between 10 and 12 I forgot

[sour harness]

Either they're evil and oops it's a pair or they're good so the evils are slightly more smushed together

[sharp violet]

I was a librarian next to the revolutionary pair who also was confirming my saint neighbor

So good tunneled on that

[sharp violet]

True

[next marlin]

Making the twins the clock number from each other can make them look like fake twins which is very fun

[sour harness]

true, but thats group dependent

[pseudo fulcrum]

I know this was a couple hours ago, but I see discussion of expansion scripts, can we make sure to spoiler that or move the conversation to #speculation-and-spoilers

[pseudo fulcrum]

10/10/2024: What's the most memorable artist question you've ever seen asked?

[fervent canopy]

“Does the demon have the first letter of their first name start in the first half of the alphabet?” (Or something to that effect)

this isn’t that. Mechanically unique or anything but it was from a very new player and it solved the game after everyone made fun of how clunky the wording was, and how much he struggled to explain it to town. It spawned a thousand jokes in our irl group about it.

Then in the next game, I got artist and had to use my artist question fast and couldn’t think of one, so I borrowed that question, as partly a joke. I couldn’t get through the wording without cracking up. It solved the game again.

[sour harness]

I mean hey, it's a really good question

[agile sigil]

One of those dumb tertiary artist questions about yes/no/i don't know. Framed me as demon because 2/4 of the others in the "i don't know" section were in a twin pair. It turned out the twin pair was fake in the end, but we were so convinced the artist had to be poisoned. It was memorable because (1) That's the only tertiary question I've ever seen a storyteller accept, and (2) It's the only fake twins game I've seen work

Another one that's less memorable that I'm proud of was when I decided to play hidden psychopath bluffing savant, and got the artist to ask about one side of my fake info

[lucid crag]

saw that in an st game, it went pretty well

[lucid crag]

a vortox proof spy proof question asking if someone was good

it was vortox too

but that's not why it was memorable

it was memorable since the artist was barber swapped into a good marionette

[zenith lotus]

in an 11 player vortox game, without any prior conversations, went up and asked "is [demon player] the demon?" got told a no, immediately solved the game when vortox was considered at all

[copper quail]

It was last Sunday someone asked "Is it a Vortox game" on day 1 🥲- it was a LM game so the STs have been nice and killed them n2

[naive flame]

Was No dashii poisoned as clockmaker in a Artist Twins

Got a 1.

Somehow that was Gamesolving and on d3 we just exed demon off the bat

[dense moat]

10/11/24: What’s your favorite Amnesiac ability you’ve seen or heard of?

[fast anchor]

one that I asked: "If I was the Juggler and juggled [ND poisoning me] as [her claim], [good player] as [their claim], and [good player] as [their claim], would a 3 be true information?" and got a yes - quickly found the Demon after that when figuring out I was poisoned

[fast anchor]

i love outsider mod ❤️

[lean isle]

I had once "Each night*, choose a player: chosen Outsider becomes the Snake Charmer."

[fast anchor]

oh yeah i also played a game with this glorious amne ability

[sly crescent]

[+2 Snakecharmers]
i don't know if/when it was played but it was a running joke and an awesome one last year and i still love it

[pseudo fulcrum]

what happens if the apprentice travels out?

you just have a bunch of normal Snake Charmers then

[foggy grotto]

N1 took half an hour because they asked pulled everyone into a vc and asked what their favorite ice cream color and then each night the amnesiac picks chocolate vanilla or “other” and learns how many evil players chose that option

it was pretty funny

we all formed gangs around what flavor we chose

[pseudo fulcrum]

12/10: Which do you think is the most interesting part of a game: the early-game, midgame or endgame and why?

[zenith lotus]

from a ST perspective, the middle game because i love watching evil make plays and completely mislead town. From a player perspective, the early game, just because you only have a few claims and are trying to figure out the best exes based on little info

[barren zenith]

End-game, as you have everyone's roles, and from there you just have to piece everything together with info and social reads. Although, it doesn't always get to late in the game

[pliant grail]

I want to say late mid game- aflter most of the info is out and worldbuilding starts in earnest, but before people cement their opinions and town turns into something of an echo chamber

[sour harness]

All of the above: early game is great for socials and general gaslighting from both teams, mid game is great for shenanigans and aha moments, the end is carefully crafted to be a great climax

[gray ridge]

Midgame because stuff starts to get revealed and more consistent worlds starts to be built

[dense hound]

early game

[vale oxide]

Mid game

[karmic slate]

End game and trying to pull the worlds together with all the info; it’s probably why I like BMR and anticipating GoS the most

[sly crescent]

d1 is random not reliably interesting, endgame can be disappointing in some ways,process of elimination i have to say midgame most interesting, once enough is revealed to build on - for players but also for storyteller crafting info

but also logically mainly interesting/balanced games should get to the endgame point but for me too often that part gas some frustration because when you can't convince someone of something the effect is immediate and often final, midgame has more hope

[austere steppe]

For a player like me, D1 noms/votes are very telling. You get a good vibe for players who think/know they are on the same team as each other.

[vale oxide]

13/10: Which character(s) do you roll the most? Maybe 1 for each character type

[zenith lotus]

overall, slayer. I’ll have to double check my stats for the others

[vale oxide]

I don't track my games but I've been the Pukka 6-7 times, never on BMR

[sour harness]

FT is the only notable one for me I think

[foggy grotto]

Cannibal

it’s actually concerning how often i roll this token. Not complaining tho I love cannibal

[sour harness]

I have a friend who rolled slayer thrice and won off of it also thrice

[flat lintel]

Photoshopping this message

[sour harness]

In Avalon I keep rolling Merlin lol

Though since I got into botc I barely play Avalon anymore

[flat lintel]

I dont keep rolling a thing personally

I get all types of minions

[sour harness]

Can I have ur luck pls

[lean isle]

I've been 3 times VI and never sober one.

[sour harness]

In my group the demon is usually one of 3 people

[vale oxide]

TF - Seamstress/Artist
Outsider - Drunk (usually Empath token 👍)
Minion - Baron??
Demon - Pukka

[sour harness]

And there's one player who consistently pulls minions

[lean isle]

For each character type:
TF: Alchemist/drunk-VI
Outsider: Butler/Barber
Minion: I haven't pulled any more than once
Demon: Imp

[flat lintel]

That’s me

[flat lintel]

I don’t think you want my luck??

[zenith lotus]

there isnt really a particular outsider
poisoner
imp

as you can maybe tell, i've played a lot of TB

[pseudo fulcrum]

My most rolled character is Drunk. STs hate me.

[sly crescent]

Librarian Recluse Baron Imp, weirdly enough. but only i think 3 out of many of those games were TB

[next marlin]

Far as I can tell I mostly roll ysks and bait roles

I am good an extremely disproportionate amount of time but not towards particular roles

Tongue in cheek: "boring townsfolk/outsiders"

[near nymph]

Recluse. I pulled recluse 3 times in a row one time.

[fast anchor]

I'm infamous in my IRL group for pulling Widow 3/3 times we played Catfishing, but I think I've pulled Godfather more frequently

[next marlin]

The minion token I've tied drawn most often and in fact one of the only two minion tokens I've drawn more than once is Baron...I have never played Baron

(once was an instant rerack, once the ST forgot to add outsiders so told me to change it to scarlet)

(the other minion token I've drawn >1 time is Cerenovus)

[hollow oasis]

I think recluse?

[sharp violet]

, , ,

[next marlin]

I like how we have so many perma-recluses

[gray ridge]

seamstress? idk

[fervent canopy]

Empath, Moonchild, Imp. I rarely get any minion let alone one more than once

I know someone in my irl group who has gotten scarlet woman like, more than half the times the scarlet woman’s been in play

[vale oxide]

Moonchild is interesting, I feel like it's pretty rare on scripts outside bmr

[hollow oasis]

Perma recluse is fun IMO

that’s because moonchild is barely not a TF

[fervent canopy]

I don’t get other outsiders a lot and I’ve played a decent amount of bmr (less than TB though)

[next marlin]

The only script I've managed to make it work on explicitly balances it as a weak townsfolk by way of "outsider count doesn't exist in kazali"

(it's the weakest townsfolk there, but it's not an outsider)

It only works off bmr if you're making a bmrlike or doing something fundamentally different like that, and even there it's going to be hard townsider

Which is a shame because it's a very cool role, one of the more fun outsiders to play

[karmic slate]

I think this outlines it lol

[copper quail]

Cannibal/Drunk/Scarlet Woman/Fang gu

[dusky minnow]

15/10: A simple question, for each townsfolk what would their thoughts on bugs be? Do they loves bugs or hate bugs, do they kill bugs, leave bugs be, or eat bugs?

[sour harness]

loves bugs and protects them at all costs

sears them with the sunlight + their magnifying glass

hates being anywhere near bugs

[dusky minnow]

Loves bugs
Hates bugs, kills them
Likes bugs, eats them
Is bugs

[sour harness]

doesn't notice a single bug, kills all of them

buys bugs regularly to feed to their ravens

bugs?

[dusky minnow]

Bugs?

[sour harness]

hates bugs, uses pesticides

Meanwhile loves playing with the bugs in the flowers

She's probably harming the bugs but she doesn't know that

loves bugs, just like everything else

squashes bugs whenever convenient to do so

bugs are ingredients

has a collection of pinned bugs and a secret collection of Frankenstein bugs

[sly crescent]

creates bugs

[sour harness]

leaves them be

[dense moat]

Joins the beehive after getting stung by aa bee

[fast anchor]

here's my read

[sharp violet]

gets in the way of work, so kills them

[sly crescent]

how about ? depends on where/when i feel like

[dense hound]

Likes bugs, saves them: Empath
Indifferent, saves them: Monk
Hates bugs, saves them: Devils Advocate

Likes bugs, doesn't act: Choirboy
Wholly indifferent: Politician
Hates bugs, doesn't act: King

Likes bugs, kills them: Zealot
Indifferent, kills them: Fisherman
Hates bugs, kills them: Exorcist

[zenith lotus]

likes bugs, cooks them

[sly crescent]

that makes sense, unless it's like a cock roach

[dusky minnow]

Makes you think you are bugs

Shrimp is bugs

[zenith lotus]

proof that the baron was right 😉

[dusky minnow]

Saves bugs to scare townsfolk with

[young sonnet]

eats bugs

[wispy nest]

Are you the bug?

[gray ridge]

makes bugs appear

hunts bugs

[sly crescent]

[Elmer Fudd] shoots Bugs

[tall raft]

I think poppy grower is less likely to use pesticides than flowergirl

Unless they’re like the East India Company

I’m thinking they’re more hippy than manufacturer

[hollow oasis]

i kinda thought really smart drug manufacturer for a sec

[tall raft]

Not really a dealer in the traditional sense

Got it

[hollow oasis]

i believe east india company more?

[tall raft]

Yeah I can see that

[sour harness]

Yeah that makes sense

[hollow oasis]

oh yeah

[sour harness]

I've always thought of flowergirl as a child

Roughly steward's age

[hollow oasis]

flavor text looks like a shifty person

[tall raft]

I’m thinking more spreading drugs around for free

[hollow oasis]

"In the hidden groves of the deep forest, the black poppy dwells. To see its revelry is to be enchanted. To smell its thick aroma is to be lost forever, a slave to the gods of light and dark."

[sour harness]

Lol what if I made a script with all the children

[tall raft]

This makes me think they just love opium

[hollow oasis]

the flavor text does not sound like a child

[hollow oasis]

or warning about the dangers of opium

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What are some roles you think are easier or harder to understand than usually perceived?

I think people tend to overestimate the difficulty of Mutant specifically (as opposed to madness as a mechanic in general), because so many people try to introduce madness in the form of paragraphs-long infodumps about 20 different edge cases that make new players much more confused than they were before. Everything about Mutant that someone new to it needs to know can be summarized in two simple sentences:

"You're an escaped sideshow freak. You need to make sure no one ever finds out you're an escaped sideshow freak, or they'll kill you out of disgust."

It's the first botc character I've told a lot of people about, because not only is it hilarious but it makes immediate, perfect thematic sense

[sour harness]

Virgin and minstrel

My group (of mostly newish players) still wants to insta execute minstrels because they think they're harmful

When it's actually one of the strongest roles in the bag lol

[hollow oasis]

It’s quite literally the strongest role on BMR (except maybe courtier)

[hollow oasis]

Legion

It’s definitely harder than percieved, people do not understand the importance of bluffs in legion

[sly crescent]

Fisherman. probably 11/10 storytellers think it will be fine but then they have to resort to giving information instead of advice. or they fundamentally can't read and think the text says riddle 🙃

seriously though discounting LM which can't be really 100% understood, probably al-hadikhia is the most overlooked demon that's quite well defined and simple on the surface but if u draw the token decisions can be overwhelming

[foggy grotto]

Politician. People draw this token and basically either act like they have a blank evil token or that they can just win with whatever team they feel like (and often STs let them, which is stupid). They have to be the MOST responsible for their team losing, more than the entire evil team, and i think a lot of STs and players ignore this

[fast anchor]

People underestimate Politician and overestimate Mathematician

Poli isn't just "flip them if evil wins" every time and it's frustrating to run into STs who do this. The almanac has changed to clarify they should be most responsible, ideally more responsible than all evil players and definitely more responsible than all good players. It's not nearly as fun if they flip every game.

Mathematician is complicated, but some people are scared to run it when they shouldn't be imo. Use your reminder tokens!! If you take your time and ask the questions "did this work abnormally? if so, was it another character's ability?" you'll be fine

[fast anchor]

Changing my answer for underestimate to this actually yeah people just don't run fisherman well 💀 courses of action, people! "get X and Y to work together" is underrated fish advice

[pseudo fulcrum]

Yeah I think there's definitely some bias due to all the discussion of insane math number situations, I've seen probably over 200 games and only ever probably seen 3 or 4 tricky math situations

[lost thistle]

i think people are too scared of confirming other people as good in fisherman advice

which results in diluting its effectiveness

[zenith lotus]

i've run fisherman, but im honestly terrified of coming up with unique fisherman advice, so i just stick with generic statements based on gamestate

[lost thistle]

i honestly feel the same sometimes, its hard to come up with advice that doesn’t break the game wide open and confirm multiple people to the fisherman

“get X to talk to Y”
kinda metaconfirms that X is good

otherwise why are you being told this

[young sonnet]

Drunk fishermen when x is a minion and y is the damsel

I once ST'd a Teenyville with a Drunk fisherman and I told them to get the minion player and the demon player to trust each other lmao

[lost thistle]

okay yeah you can tell a droisoned fisherman whatever nonsense you want and its very fun

[young sonnet]

Good still won, but everyone was dying of laughter

[lost thistle]

but when they’re sober its like

“what do i even tell you that doesnt break the game wide open”

[young sonnet]

Cause the minion was just like, "I'm gonna regret this, but are you the demon?"

I feel like part of the solution is giving more convincing destructive info to droisoned fishermen

So when a real sober fisherman has game breaking info, it's harder to get people to trust/follow it

[fast anchor]

i did "get [Minion] and [Demon bluffing amne] to work together" in Upon a Scaled Wind for a miasma-d Fisherman

[young sonnet]

Lmao nice

[young sonnet]

Can you send Upon a Scaled Wind? I checked my homebrew stash and realized I still don't have a copy of it

[wispy nest]

[fast anchor]

Amnesiac-Teacher: If the Amnesiac has a once-per-game ability, the Teacher can learn Amnesiac.

#1135249112871207043 message

[young sonnet]

Thank you!!

[lucid crag]

T: Amnesiac/Clock/Poppy x4 (amne x5 if you count non-tf fabled amne)
O: Goon x3
M: Cerenovus x3
D: Legion x4

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What's your least favourite role on your favourite base script, excluding Snake Charmer, Evil Twin, Zombuul, Mastermind, or Professor?

[next marlin]

[vale oxide]

Why is mastermind there

[next marlin]

I want to see what people come up with when they can't pick the ez ones

[fast anchor]

Professor

Wait FUCK

[next marlin]

Too common a choice

[fast anchor]

I can't read

[zenith lotus]

okay, actual answer would probably be grandmother. its just kinda boring

also hard to script build 😦

[next marlin]

Anyway probably Witch, everyone's favourite misclassified townsfolk

[fast anchor]

Minstrel. It's ludicrously powerful and is a win-more mechanic, which can feel super bad for evil sometimes. Bonus points for basically being forbidden from every custom script

[next marlin]

Actually no, Flowergirl for being the worst ever

honorary mention: philo because it's just snake charmer with a loophole to not answer snake charmer

[fast anchor]

here's my new s&v take

(i stole it)

[next marlin]

Mutant is so loadbearing to the script but occultist on snv goes incredibly hard so I'm in two minds about it

[fast anchor]

(it's not new)

[fast anchor]

I ask you: which is the funnier vigor-killed Minion bluff? That's right, it's Occultist again

[next marlin]

I know, right

[fast anchor]

"uh oh guys I was the mutant nothing I said was true" vs "I was the occultist, here's the one specific piece of info you need to believe"

[next marlin]

And then in turn you have the occultist live until f3 and they finally get their fact and they have to out this while convincing town they're not the fang gu

Also making people mad as the occultist is much funnier and more believable while you still have the "forced mutant explosion" dynamic by forcing an occultist to claim a non-ongoing-info role

It's so cool. But mutant is mutant

just remove sweetheart instead ez

[fast anchor]

I actually like Sweetheart on S&V

It's like baby Puzzlemaster

It can pry open worlds and make so many more things possible

Low playercount Vortox + Sweetheart who gets exed d1 = people seriously considering Fang Gu

[next marlin]

I like sweetheart but I think non-baby puzzlemaster would at least arguably work better (also pm fang gu is such a cool interaction)

Sweethearts just keep dying at the most useless goddamn times for it to do anything and the role is designed for that

[fast anchor]

i think sweetheart's a more interesting vigorkilled Minion bluff?

but PM does pry open more worlds

[next marlin]

So I have strong takes on pm/vigor

[fast anchor]

PM might be too Outsidery is the thing

[next marlin]

And on the weirdness of vigor -1 in general because of snv being definitionally a fang gu script where outsider claims dying at night are inherently suspicious (vigor is still on net probably the least bad place to put the -1, but it makes the intended dynamic at non-base-0 outsider counts jankier)

PM/vigor is actively good because vigor -1 is about opening complex and high-value bluffspace, which includes claiming on-death outsiders

[gray ridge]

Flowergirl maybe?

I just think its boring

[next marlin]

It is not about dying at night and claiming on-death outsiders, that's just the most obvious way to exploit it, but it's a tricky one to navigate because fang gu and vortox are both roles that exist and "dying early at night as an outsider claim in a game that doesn't feel vortoxed" is an inherent risk

(esp in base 1)

The nature of snv as a script makes it very strong to fall back on an outsider bluff in the mid-late game, and the structure of the non-mutant outsiders on the script provides good reasons for acting shady and playing with a strong self-preservation instinct

PM fits very well in this spectrum because it's an outsider that plays with a self-preservation instinct for distinct reasons to why on-death outsiders do, and in turn it's a way stronger bluff in terms of actual impact on the game independent of dead/alive status, in a way that fits perfectly within snv's intended bluffspace and can be exploited by a wide variety of evils

It's also a droison outsider that avoids sweetheart's common problem of "by claiming to be this particular droison outsider you run a very high risk of signalling vigor poison, which just hurts you"

(because PM can affect frontloaded roles, expanding worldbuilding space)

(occultist is also an outsider that plays with a self-preservation instinct for distinct reasons to why on-death outsiders do, of course)

[fierce reef]

sailor ;-;

[cloud plover]

Soldier or Monk

Probably Soldier when localized to TB, but Monk has a bad interaction with at least pukka that pushes it down overall.

[ivory ridge]

zombuul

[next marlin]

excluding [...] Zombuul

[ivory ridge]

I can't read damn

uhhh gimme a second

[vale oxide]

Not my favourite base 3 but SAILOR

[ivory ridge]

it's actually kinda funny how i noticed everyone but zombuul in the exclusion list

[vale oxide]

My favourite is SnV and I like everything on there

[next marlin]

Funnily enough I don't think either sc or et are even in my bottom 5 for snv

Which is probably "flowergirl worst, then witch, then vortox"

sc might be bottom 5 but it's so hard to classify

I genuinely like twins

[ivory ridge]

i also find twin fun

honestly i just look through the list and really nothing make blood boil as hard as mastermind zombuul

if I have to pick, uhhh vigor

i just don't like vigor's playstyle

[next marlin]

It's probably one of the hardest base script roles to play properly and also suffers most dramatically from the "town too busted syndrome" that STs newer to snv can fall into

(also suffers in metas where people obsess over base 2 outsider counts, which are already pretty goodsided in snv)

[ivory ridge]

yeah me saying that is a semi self report that i don't know how to play vigor properly

but yes, i don't know how to play vigor properly

[next marlin]

many such cases

[ivory ridge]

i don't even have a reference of how a proper vigor play look like 🤣

[hollow oasis]

only thing that i don't like about snv is witch

i like vortox, i like FG

witch just isn't helpful OR is too helpful

[next marlin]

Witches solve games

[austere steppe]

I think vig and puka should swap scripts.

[next marlin]

Pukka would mean 2 out of 4 demons can't exploit on-death outsiders (and fang gu still can if they've already jumped)

Also vigor makes it far harder for town to work out what's going on when there are acting minions in the late game

Pukka death mod is also tricky to navigate

[tall raft]

TB: Mayor
SnV: Witch
BMR: Shabaloth

[hollow oasis]

TB:Spy

SnV:Witch

BMR:Lunatic(only because it's on BmR, not on other scripts)

[sour harness]

Investigator, I just don't find it fun for anyone

Shoutouts to empath and tea lady

[indigo osprey]

saint, probably

'yes, I am the fortune teller red herring, please find someone else'

[gray ridge]

TB: Soldier
SnV: Flowergirl (because ET is not allowed)
BMR: Courtier (?)

TB was a tie between Mayor and Soldier, but at least Mayor can do something on final 3

Soldier is just a more boring RK

Except if the Demon targets RK it at least learns and confirms someone (not considering droison) while Soldier just becomes the frame at some point on the game lol

[next marlin]

Invest is kind of a pain but I think it's needed to make poisoner not completely unsolvable and dominant 100% of the time

Also invest/grim peeker is a cool dynamic (if the player who drew the grim peeker token isn't someone who's going to immediately go into a 5 minute private chat with the demon, then kill the other half of the invest ping "because ut/dreamer/whatever is a good target")

-# tb isn't your favourite base script though

[next marlin]

This is imo what makes invest arguably work on catfishing, invest seeing widow is interesting (and the widow has the option to avoid it, at the cost of invest being probably the single worst poison on any given catfishing grim) and invest seeing godfather makes reclused invest actually interesting rather than a boring ability soak

It's still a weird script to have it but those two are cool

[foggy grotto]

FOOL

I HATE FOOL

ITS SO BORING AND UNINTENTIONALLY HELPS THE EVIL TEAM LIKE 70% OF THE TINE

[swift thicket]

real, at least when gossip throws the game by obscuring death patterns it does it under the guise of being an "information role"

[sharp violet]

Butler or Soldier

Butler manages to be so janky for a character that's intended to be simple

Soldier is mostly about fun level

[hollow oasis]

soldier is more interesting outside of TB

still boring at the end of the day

but ya know

[sharp violet]

Not fun to play as or gets hard confirmed and evil has no counterplay, heck even evil framing a soldier is kinda lame

[hollow oasis]

soldier sucks

plz change

that actually makes me think of a homebrew idea now

[lucid crag]

soldier is based

it's the only role you could never claim and probably be fine

/hj

[lucid crag]

bmr is my favorite base so... DA prob

it's vital for like 50% of the script working but

god I do hate double tapping to prove someone not DA'd lol

[foggy grotto]

it is vital tho

but yeah it can be annoying as good

it’s 100% more fun to play evil on BMR and anyone who says otherwise is Kuro

[gray ridge]

DA is soo annoying I agree

[sly crescent]

lol i totally read favourite and skipped over least because SC was forbidden answer i assumed it would be most 😆

[next marlin]

I think Snake Charmer is the only role that'd have to be a forbidden answer for both versions