secret thing

[sharp violet]

I do see and agree with that (although if you're cerelocked as the Savant I expect you to be consulting), I just enjoy playing Cerenovus more chaotically by making different people mad as different things every day just to stifle their real info and create double-claims

[next marlin]

I find cere fun if either 1. you can totally warp the info-landscape or 2. you can dictate executions for a few days

Moving around a lot without getting kills is just kinda being loud

[sour harness]

Next time I pull cere I'm making myself mad as the juggler d1 and not telling anyone about it

[sharp violet]

agreed, I do it to try to warp the info-landscape, just not by cere-locking

[sour harness]

If someone comes out as ceremad they won't be believed because nobody came out d1

[next marlin]

IME usually moving around without killing people just kind of soft confirms those people as good and results in the mad player being tuned out for the day they're mad

There are 5D chess plays with the first clause of this

[sour harness]

Plot twist: choose your demon

[next marlin]

But those 5D chess plays still aren't killing people

[next marlin]

Yeah that's the 5D chess play

But it's probably snv's weakest cere 5D chess play because you're still being-loud-without-wasting-executions

Also I have seen at least one game where it nearly got the demon killed by town, which was funny

[sly crescent]

Apprentice ||think of any bad interaction you don't like and add Apprentice- at the beginning it's more fun 🙃||

[young sonnet]

Literally

[next marlin]

Watching people's reactions on d1 when the vote goes around is funny

[sharp violet]

Honestly this is a valid strategy a lot of the time

Claiming that I got Pit-Hagged into something is oftentimes both the most realistic way Im actually that role and doesnt even harm info asmuch

[zenith lotus]

9/6: What's the best example you've seen of someone winning for the wrong reason?

[sharp violet]

We had this q recently I think

[zenith lotus]

oh 😦

[sharp violet]

Had a Slayer shoot the Imp in my game because of a Chef 1 that was elsewhere on the grim

But the Imp was texting their good neighbors super susly

[acoustic chasm]

Poisoned investigator pings with a player next to the imp+drunk chef 1

[next marlin]

I ran a 7p vortox game that was never solved for vortox where town identified the demon off of the "chef 1" and wouldn't let the minion fall on the sword because she was "pixie confirmed"

[zenith lotus]

i wonder if there's a situation like this without a chef 1

[next marlin]

It seems to be a theme

[acoustic chasm]

:P

[foggy grotto]

i once slayer shot a dude because he was being annoying. he was the demon

[flat lintel]

Apprentice Alchemist Vizier, first axe was the Demon.

[sour harness]

World's Least vizier

[next marlin]

I like how it's not least anything specific

Just least

Feels accurate

[sharp violet]

9/7 What's your favorite passive character and why?

[next marlin]

25 people simultaneously say Baron

[zenith lotus]

there's totally gonna be an argument here later about the definition of "passive"

[next marlin]

I had no idea how to define it but I figured Baron counts in any case and 25 people are going to say it

[zenith lotus]

true

[sharp violet]

Its an intentionally vague "passive"

[zenith lotus]

cool

[indigo osprey]

Magician

[sour harness]

It's such cool design

Shoutout to

[sharp violet]

I have a personal vendetta against Recluse lol

It's my 2nd most drawn character ever, over half from customs

[next vault]

Often times they are used on scripts where there's no way to differentiate between Minions and Demons.
It has very few good abilities and it's indistinguishable from a regular minion.
Day 1 rerrack or do-nothing role. Unlike Alsaahir or Slayer it cannot do anything by its own and relies on town.
This is the 2nd most stupid minion, should only be used on scripts where OG is the only thing that survives execution
You cannot out your role, pick two or three playes and learn they are not the Demon. If you Snake Charm the Demon you are cooked.

||Goblin, and more specifically ET can be quite fun to play with if given some tools, it should never be a social-only thing.
Alchemist has some decent abilities like Godfather, Goblin or Assasin, Pit-Hag and Poisoner should never be used, they're too broken.
Cult Leader's fun comes from telling how your cult is about eating the storyteller alive or something. Still not a good role, would be better if it was reworked in some way.
Organ Grinder has to let themselves be executed/be killed at night if people find out who the OG is (easier final 3) and gives evil a better chance at getting more votes.
Snake Charmer is just horrible, a Minion can claim to be SNarmed in the end, SNarmer will get cooked or at best remove 3 people as candidates||

[zenith lotus]

🤨 OG cant survive execution

[next marlin]

Snake Charmer is hilarious because it's like, objectively bad, but being the demon is so cool that people gun for it anyway

Philos go roles other than snake charmer challenge (impossible) (cops called) (20 years prison sentence)

[fast anchor]

What do you mean by "passive"

you can play every character actively

you might not have as much agency if you pull something like, say, the Soldier, but I wouldn't call the Soldier passive as a result

[minor pier]

I'd say abilities that function without player (ST-prompted) input.

[fast anchor]

hmm... I like the Pacifist, but that's specifically because the Pacifist themselves has a pretty good plan of action when you draw the token - find & execute power roles and see if they live

I wouldn't call the Pacifist passive, but it fits the definition

Agree with the people saying Magician, too, that one's super fun

[flat lintel]

Passive is a section of abilities like YSK or EN*, who don’t actively do something like choose a player, consult, etc. Think about the characters at the bottom of the Townsfolk script list.

Sage is not passive.

Baron is an easy go to.

Recluse is fun for me. I get to fuck around as good and be mechanically read as evil 😄 sounds like a Good team nightmare!

[next vault]

Oh nvm I'm stupid

[next vault]

Magician is pretty mid

[flat lintel]

OG rejects itself from being executed, so ig it can?

[next vault]

mb

[zenith lotus]

yea but it doesnt "survive" execution, it just never gets put up on the block

[next vault]

I thought it was like

OG is executed and doesn't die

never played a game where the OG isn't killed at night

[next vault]

but yeah it's not like that

wish it was

idk why people like snarmer

it helps town

but you're not town

and philo has better options in snv (artist, seamstress, flowergirl, savant...)

[next marlin]

People want the 1% chance of the crazy epic snake charmer win

[next vault]

snarmer is just not good

[next marlin]

Which is actually not unlikely if you can get it in the very endgame

I played a game once where the philo sc would've gotten the sc win if not for the fact the witch screwed up and cursed him the same night

[next vault]

snamer only works if you snarm on final 7/5

[next marlin]

SnV moment

[next vault]

lol

snv moment

[next marlin]

(and because the pithag went for the classic "pithag the evil twin into a different minion" blunder)

[next vault]

same with pithag

pithag the snarmer who just snarmed the demon

[next marlin]

One of SnV's funnier fundamental themes is how you can so easily force the game to explode in your face

[next vault]

psycho, vizier, assasin, gf... are also roles that hate the snarmer

let's not even talk about the spy snarmer interaction

[next marlin]

Spidow and sc is fun, you just don't give your demon the full grim

[next vault]

yeah ik

as widow you just tap the snarmer

[next marlin]

One of these days I'm gonna roll widow and see a grim with an sc and a philo sc and just die

[next vault]

philo sc is pepedumb play

real ones go philo barber

I cannot think of other roles that are explicitly bad

Maybe like

[flat lintel]

9/8: If you wrote a creative writing piece on BOTC, what would it be?

I'm more curious about these three: Essay? Poem? Play?

[zenith lotus]

definitely a multi season television show. but out of those 3, a play.

i could totally see either one of those tv shows where the status quo resets every episode representing the start of a new game, OR one game takes the entirety of a season, and the plot is slowly unraveled like a murder mystery

[patent elbow]

Tv show

How many love triangles can I make with 150+ characters

[sly crescent]

there once was a Virgin from Ravenswood Bluff

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What are some of your favourite interactions between base 3 characters outside of their home script?

I love the interaction triad between Vigormortis/Fang Gu/Godfather:

1. Vigor/GF allows for the bluffspace that negative outsider mod opens without actually losing an outsider, which is a fantastic best-of-both-worlds, especially if your script has outsiders that functionally serve as positive outsider mod themselves (e.g. Puzzlemaster, Puzzlemaster, and Puzzlemaster). GF itself is not an all-time vigorkill, but can be situationally extremely useful in the late game if you can bait town into misexecuting, and works well as a minion to keep alive. Also, gf adding a recluse in a vigor game is hilarious.
2. Fang Gu/Godfather is divisive as hell, as seen in it being such a common answer to the earlier "what common interactions do you dislike" question. I love it. Even on SnV, a script where killing outsiders can lose you the game on the spot, people are really enthusiastic to kill outsiders out of Fang Gu paranoia. This can make being an outsider on a Fang Gu script unfun, and Godfather helps mitigate it while actually being less punishing than the home script interaction. Fang Gu is also an excellent use case for Godfather -1, to mitigate the situation where a four-outsider Fang Gu/Godfather game genuinely is often too rough on town.
3. Because Vigor -1/Godfather +1 and Fang Gu +1/Godfather -1 produce identical-to-starting outsider counts, they open complex worldbuilding space when coexisting on a script. You probably don't want 20 other forms of outsider mod on this script, but they're fascinating as the only forms.
4. Bluffing as outsider in a Vigor game on a Godfather script tends to be much more successful than doing so on homescript, because it's easier to provide an excuse for why town should 100% not kill you, especially if there's already been a GF kill. "I know it's not Fang Gu at this point, but you can't kill me now! If we get a Godfather kill at this point, we lose!"

[zenith lotus]

Fang Gu/Lunatic:
I had a game where I just repeatedly told the lunatic that they were the fang gu each and every night, and then they actually got fang gu jumped. it was hilarious.

[fiery finch]

I despise this

[supple dirge]

Imp plus oracle to learn if the imp star passed in the night seems fun

Courtier drunk the spy so they see a wrong grim

[sharp violet]

Vortox Drunk

[sour harness]

with:

As in, drunk with juggler, drunk with professor, etc

[young sonnet]

Cerenovus Saint is hilarious

[sharp violet]

Saint made mad as Mutant

[young sonnet]

Godfather giving a stronger reason to not just execute the recluse claim and to keep them around longer

Monk Vortox is also fun

Scarlet Woman Zombuul, my beloved

[foggy grotto]

i want to do this in catfishing one day

[foggy grotto]

GM Drunk is pretty funny

[next marlin]

I like how many of these boil down to "things Catfishing does"

[foggy grotto]

Catfishing is the Dustbowl of BotC

it’s so bad…but in the best way possible

[supple dirge]

I was thinking why do people love the dustbowl in the 1930s not the tf2 map lol

[foggy grotto]

tbf i think most people would associate it with what you did

i’m just addicted to tf2

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What is a character that you like, but think is often misused on scripts?

[fast anchor]

High Priestess

It's definitely not as splashable as some scriptbuilders think - it's definitely flexible, but there are places it really doesn't belong imo

[zenith lotus]

lleech. too much good execution survival on a lot of scripts 🙈

[sour harness]

Stop putting this character on every script, I'd rather just use a sentinel if you're not gonna place this responsibly

It needs death mod in order to be valid outsider mod. That, or you basically force the gf to sink every kill which isn't fun

is another character that needs a lot of support for its existence. I keep seeing it in places where it's just a townsfolk

It works on snv, it works on luf, I have yet to see a script where it works and doesn't have the supporting characters from one of those two

[next marlin]

My personal answer is the terrifying number of scripts I see where Vigormortis is "en* choose a player they die, you have no other ability [+1 townsfolk lol screw you]"

[sour harness]

Yeah that too

with loud minions. Like, it's fine, but it's so much more interesting as a character when it's bluffable

It's also much more easily solvable if there are loud minions on script

[zenith lotus]

^ this with goblin too

[sour harness]

True

They're a great pair tho

with loud minions too lol

Some quiet minions are fine with loud minions, these suck tho

[next marlin]

I encounter many scriptbuilders who parse "Goblins who claim are outed evil" as meaning "Goblin is a loud minion, it fits on loud minion scripts with Psychopath, Evil Twin, and Vizier"

[sour harness]

The amount of + / scripts I've seen is kinda sad

[sour harness]

Yeah goblin is mechanically silent lol

yep that's all the silent minions (defined as "no good players can ever know this minion is in play as a result of the minion's own ability")

[next marlin]

Also, Fang Gu when the scriptbuilder is not accounting for "Fang Gu is ~balanced on its homescript by guaranteeing that every single player on a script built around busted OP town is receiving 100% complete trustworthy info without exception...and also is the strongest demon there"

I like some of the arguably OP Fang Gu combos, but Fang Gu+non-busted town and Fang Gu+Poisoner are not imo especially fun

[flat lintel]

This because like losing to a HP is just not funny 😭. Lke I lost to one on D2 because everyone else was HP confirmed, like Evil should not need to worry about that?

[sour harness]

What on earth does "HP confirmed" mean

Like, the HP just solved that they were all good?

[flat lintel]

okay, so basically

if the ST sends you to a good player who has info, you can reasonably assume that person is good and ST wants you to hear their info

this was a month or two ago when people were really bad at running HP

but basically, STs sent HP to good players and like evil team was like 🤷

[fast anchor]

The GF sinking all its kills isn't fun

I don't know how to tell you you're just wrong

[fast anchor]

Like, killing is only half the GF ability. Being able to flawlessly slide into an Outsider bluff without talking to your Demon is underrated and isn't easily replicable by a Sentinel

Especially when those outsiders are hidden

[sour harness]

No I know

[fast anchor]

(see: Hide and Seek - it only very recently got its Ojo to allow non-GF evil teams to bluff a GF kill. It worked really well without it despite that)

[sour harness]

See that's the problem

Not the character and not its placement on a script

[flat lintel]

huh?

[sour harness]

Idk if I got half of my ability ripped away from me before I even drew the token I'd be pretty disappointed

[flat lintel]

I like HP it's a social character, I think it's misused on scripts to confirm high powerful info characters that don't always need the confirmation like that?

[sour harness]

I love HP

but it's not "EN learn a s&h good player who just learned actionable info"

[fast anchor]

Yeah that's what I was getting at - people who don't know how to run HP putting it on scripts to confirm people, and it not really doing its job when someone runs it properly because the script isn't built for the HP seeing evils being interesting

[flat lintel]

axo said what i was trying to say

[fast anchor]

This is because I am just better than you

[flat lintel]

That's just factually incorrect

Like sending HP to Mez turned player is funny

or sending them to Poisoner to sorta passively create a Math 1 is interesting

sending the hp to a chef because they got a 1 is not interesting imo

but this just depends on how you run HP

[sour harness]

Or just send em to a minion who doesn't have a bluff, depending on where the tokens land this can genuinely be the best option

[sour harness]

The chef is likely to out and chef numbers aren't actionable d1 anyway. Not only is it not interesting... it's just wrong

[flat lintel]

I did this before

[sour harness]

If you have another reason to send em there go for it tho

[flat lintel]

I also sent it to a minion D2 to have them see if they can bluff why they're HP info

they didn't, they got axe'd for that and reads

[sour harness]

Perfect

[sharp violet]

Honestly I don't even like High Priestess

I think Grandmaster is such a nicer way to execute the idea

It also kinda upsets me that High Priestess is an inflexible and unintuitive character as-is, and actual criticisms about its design are handwaved as being an ST problem

[sour harness]

(what's that)

[sour harness]

Idk I think it's pretty intuitive, it's just a hard character to run

[sharp violet]

Homebrew that's

Once per game, visit the ST to learn your most important ally but not why they're important

[sour harness]

That sounds like strictly worse fisherman

[sharp violet]

More like strictly better steward

But like from playing with and against High Priestess a ton like a lot of theoretical Devil's Advocating that goes to defend this character is just sooo not true in actual games

Being sent a Minion to "catch them in a bluff" only for them to claim a Fortune Teller with a yes was not in fact a fun game to be in

[next marlin]

I like HP because you can send them to people doing interesting things (amnesiacs, people with contrarian info, engineers, puzzlemasters, "successful" snake charmers, etc)
Looking very hard for reasons to send a HP to someone evil is imo overrated

Send them to people who will have something interesting to say

This is usually going to be someone good with some kind of info, and that's fine

The exceptions are definitionally themselves interesting

[sour harness]

-# why do so many people think their first FT yes is actionable

[next marlin]

because a n1 ft yes is always the actual demon, it's the climactic one you get 70% of the way through the game on a leading demon candidate that's always the red herring

[foggy grotto]

i have a whole doctoral thesis on the problems of the HP

but i will say showing the HP to the damsel N1 is the only good correct choice and all other choices are bad and smelly

[sterile flame]

bounty hunter

I feel like it is very hard to have a bounty hunter that works

[next marlin]

Someone once described Bounty Hunter games as never rising above the level of "tolerable, in spite of the BH" which lives rent free in my head as evocative

The last game I played rather than STed I was the drunk empath in a marionette bh ping, neighbouring said marionette bh

It was not enjoyable

At all

(also I had a 2 lol)

[zenith lotus]

9/10: What is your favorite teensy?

[sour harness]

Gonna be honest I haven't played any I fell in love with

LuF is prob my favorite but eh

[zenith lotus]

i love Late Night Drive By

[sour harness]

Never played

[sharp violet]

My group is only big enough for teensies, we just started with No Greater Joy recently and it's great, hoping to move to more complex scripts soon

[sour harness]

i've found ngj to be super good sided

but ive only played it a handful

[flat lintel]

luf+1

[zenith lotus]

that's a thing?

[flat lintel]

yes

[fast anchor]

from least silly to most silly:

• Frankenstein's Mayor
• This is Jeopardy! Tournament of Champions
• Charmed, Truly
• Beauty and the Beasts
• Good Luck, Sir
• Ikebana!

[flat lintel]

IKEN IS SO GOOD WHEN YOU DONT ROLL MARIONETTE

[sour harness]

whats with the fiddler lol

[fast anchor]

If the Gambler/GF brings the game to F2 without the Imp skipping a kill to Toymaker, it goes to fiddle

[sour harness]

oh ok thats fine then

[fast anchor]

it doesn't interact with MM/Klutz at all

[sour harness]

what if it goes to f1 for the same reason

does evil just win

or do you cut off the night with a fiddle

[fast anchor]

I don't think it can ever reach f1 that way? Outsider exed on 4 --> Gambler kills to 3 --> Imp is forced to use toymaker --> GF kills to 2

oh no I see what you mean

Yeah the night gets cut off by fiddle

if town executes on 3 and Toymaker hasn't been used

Toymaker/Mastermind is a devious script combo

[foggy grotto]

Can You Evil by Edynol

it needs LoT & Ogre now of course, but it is the best script to ever exist objectively

[sharp violet]

Amne Ability: Each night, choose 2 players: they swap alignment. If they were the same alignment, you can't die until your next choice.

[flat lintel]

Good demon evil canny

[hollow oasis]

Minion on good team

Guys my demon is X

[sharp violet]

To play, Frankenstein's Mayor, LuF, my homebrew

I really love the "Solved Game" teensy I made as a concept tho

It's a 6/2/2/1 where good has a strategy that can guarantee they win, regardless of what both the ST and evil team do

Might try at it again as a 6/2/2/2

[sour harness]

Wait why is that a strength

[supple dirge]

Not a problem in teensyville lol

[hollow oasis]

Ah, thought that was in general

[sharp violet]

Wym

[sour harness]

Doesn't evil not have a chance?

Why is it a good thing that one team can force a win?

[sharp violet]

I like it for artistic reasons not for actually playing it

[sour harness]

Oh ok

I mean, yeah that's cool

[sharp violet]

The other thing I hope to see one day

Is where the characters can make an acrostic with either an Amne ability or Fisherman advice

In SAO

[fast anchor]

9/11: What's the most tragic thing to happen to you in a game of BotC?

[acoustic chasm]

Not exactly tragic.
But getting sage as a bluff as no dashii before sniping the Philo sage n2 wasn't my finest hour.

[supple dirge]

Poppy grower game. I was the goblin. Acted all suspicious and shifty claiming politician and goblin. Managed to get myself on the block claiming goblin and get executed. Lost because I was the lleech host

[sour harness]

I pulled lleech, then my host was promptly slayer shot and we didn't even make it to noms

[agile sigil]

Psychopath. Thought demon was Vortox. They were a Lleech. Day 2…I’ll let you figure it out

[sharp violet]

We solve that an SnV + 1 has a Heretic and I manage to convince a few good players they're the Heretic... we get the Klutz to pick evil but then the Philo secretly went Philo-Heretic and died without telling anyone

Right before that I saw a game where in a Legion SnV + 1, the Juggler got a 5 on the entire good team and then they lost because they sold Atheist

[sour harness]

Noooo

[sharp violet]

Yeah lol I wish +1s had a rotating banlist from STs

Im good w +1 Atheist or Legion but wanna not have to consider both at the same time

[warped fog]

I'd say Archivist's Day Off (though it is hybrid homebrew)

[next marlin]

Three consecutive answers to this being about lleech sure is something

[supple dirge]

Average lleech game

[sly crescent]

not tragic but got sniffed out by an offscript magician in teensy. it was lunatic who st forgor to tell me about pretending to be my spy

[next vault]

When they hit the second tower

[fresh shard]

Group insisted on Tea Lady testing me on day 1 and I was the demon

[sour harness]

Oh, another one! I was the lleech in a game. The was my host (chosen at random). My minion died immediately and I never quite coordinated with them, in fear of the magician being the real minion (I'm bad at playing against it lol), and even worse I never got to speak with my marionette (it was online). So, like any good marionette, they built the correct world and got the host executed (then got confused why I wasn't voting)

[lean isle]

I've been not a long ago in a game where Lleech decided to follow the Lunatic kill with "It was probably the Magician anyways"... Rest in peace the Pit-Hag.
Afterwards that Lleech got outed and later charmed by Amne, who somehow gained SC ability.

Tbf, I wasn't that Demon, I was that Lunatic.

UPD: Sad part for me was that the game and host was solved before the charm.

[next marlin]

I have a disproportionate track record as a minion of "people identifying my demon off of a complete misunderstanding of a chef/clock number", but a particularly unfortunate case was the one where the philo-snakecharmer died n3 in a 1 minion game with a clock 2, town promptly solved for vigor based on how sus he was, and he was sitting 2 steps from my demon and 2 steps from the barista

(the barista who sobered every single info role at some point, meaning there was absolutely no counterplay to the clock number, the oracle 1, or the original snake charmer, who was vigor-poisoned most of the game but made sober going into f3)

(the ST later admitted that good baristas were stronger than she had anticipated)

[sour harness]

Lunatic, my favorite townsfolk

[lean isle]

Yep. It's literally archived (text game) as lunatic-is-a-townsfolk

[sour harness]

Incredible

I gotta go philo lunatic sometime

It seems so fun and also genuine utility

[next marlin]

Lunatic is thus far the non-snakecharmer role I've most often seen philos pick on Catfishing

[barren zenith]

Killing a sage N2 is a Dylan classic™

[sour harness]

I think my philo bucket list consists of lunatic, n3 (or later) juggler, and magician

[pseudo fulcrum]

12/9: What has been your favourite question and answer in this channel so far?

I loved the "Add/Remove/Change one letter in a character's name"

Thigh Priestess was so funny

[next marlin]

"I guess it could be fun for the organ grinder specifically" is a recent highlight

Also I had a lot of fun making fucked up unplayable snv with @lost thistle

[lost thistle]

ty 🖤

[next marlin]

I still want to run this script somehow

[next vault]

Tf is this 😭

[lost thistle]

art

[next vault]

Vigor killed Psycho is crazy

[next marlin]

Oh I just realised this is even better/worse since the pd change

Because now PD minion abilities don't have to be out of play

So you can be pd pithag with a real pithag

[pseudo fulcrum]

14/5/5/5 hmmmm

[next marlin]

Intentional

How else could we embrace interactions like Philo Atheist and Vigorkilled Legion

Not to mention the bootlegger rule that you can snakecharm the lunatic

[supple dirge]

9/13 What's your favorite custom script name?

[next marlin]

Harold Holt's Revenge is up there

[barren zenith]

Harold Holt's Revenge, Extension cord, lunar eclipse, one of them

Oh name

Uhh, idk

[fast anchor]

There's something about "Reptiles II: Lizard in the City" that's just so perfect for what the script is

[indigo osprey]

Revenge of the Martian Vampires

[vale oxide]

Xenophobia

[lucid crag]

true or false, (or whatever it's called, has imp and vortox)

[lucid crag]

RP game, I'm poppy, I have legion out day 1, final 3 is me, a seamstress, and a legion, legion claims empath 0 on me and a traveler apprentice artist. The apprentice artist asks their question after 2 good votes were locked on the seamstress. Is the Empath good? No.

It was basically (you thought you won, you didn't, there is nothing you can do about it)

[lucid crag]

The kiss marry kill questions were all pretty amazing

[lucid crag]

Madness Idiot Child

[fierce reef]

manic pixie dream girl is p good

[naive flame]

One Mosh Pit or BmR

[lean isle]

Okay...ButHearMeOut is pretty cool.

[supple dirge]

I heard that script name for a long time but never looked it up, thought it was just some generic weird sounding name for the longest time

[zenith lotus]

the first time i heard of harold holt's revenge, i thought it was a mini golf place lol

[zenith lotus]

great name for one

9/14: You're playing for evil as a poli and you somehow got the courtier ability. Who are you drunking?

(lets just say everything is onscript and whatever you assume to be in play is in play)

[barren zenith]

Bounty hunter, I guess

[indigo osprey]

flowergirl seems like a very solid pick

[vale oxide]

Heretic

[sour harness]

Barista doubled Philo Poli + courtier

For the setup I mean

That feels almost realistic

... yeah I think I'm just gonna have to go with heretic

[next vault]

Ok so, options include:

-The powerful roles on the script (Dreamer/FT/TC/BH/Flowergirl...)

-Protection roles
(Innkeeper/Tea Lady/Pacifist...)

Never Heretic (You can claim Heretic to someone who you think is Evil and you'll win)

Because if Heretic in play, they kill themselves and you also win by implying there's a Heretic.

If theres no Heretic you win with good.

[sour harness]

Yes except you've played like a politician all game and you've registered as a politician (philo?) all game

You might get caught out on your lie

[zenith lotus]

wait, imagine the spydowfather jinx with the heretic getting seen as the poli

thats hilarious

[sour harness]

The heretic has no idea they're drunk, they'll come out like a genuine heretic and oops evil wins

[next vault]

I think Heretic with spydowfather should get a bluff instead of not working

Also, something bluffable

Nothing like Golem, Barber, Hatter...

Heretic seen as Lunatic 🧠

[fast anchor]

It should be the other way around

Other outsiders might register as the Heretic

The Spydowfather sees possibly multiple Heretics - are any of them real

[sour harness]

Ooh I like that

[next vault]

LOL

[lucid crag]

politician

Gotta drunk the strongest member of town

/j

[sly crescent]

probably protection, soldier etc. unless there's a very specific reason to go for info

[sour harness]

Oh wait

Alchemist

[next vault]

Alchemist is an outsider in 90% of games

[sour harness]

Precisely

[next vault]

Why Courtier drink with Alchemist?

As Evil Philo-Poli-Courtier

[sour harness]

Wait I forgot what the prompt was

My bad

[next marlin]

Making the alch drunk n1 might be funny on like a goblin script

"There's no goblin because there's an alch-goblin"

[next vault]

🧠

How do we know the alch is real?

[next marlin]

I specced a game once where town executed the goblin because the mutant was claiming alch goblin

[next marlin]

oh nvm night order doesn't work

[naive flame]

Was Sailor who kept picking the Poisoner Bluffing Dreamer who subconsciously in the Late Game Helped the Evil team..

@lucid crag was there.

[sharp violet]

9/15; What jinx would you want to change, and to what?

[sour harness]

to nothing

[supple dirge]

Change the kazali goon and soldier jinxes so they don't exist

[young sonnet]

You're lawful evil

[sharp violet]

Change the suggested - / jinx to “If the Alchemist has this ability, they do not see the grim until they die at night. Evil players may register as good and as any character to them.”

(And for Widow’s case, the poison is applied when the Alchemist sees the grim and remains after the Alchemist is dead)

[zenith lotus]

change / to "The Philosopher may not choose Bounty Hunter." this not only gets rid of the problem of philo picking BH when it isnt in play and getting the reward but no downside, but also gets rid of BH-turned philo's picking BH and finding their team while screwing over the BH

[sour harness]

I'd just get rid of the grimpeeking:
Spy: you might register as any townsfolk or Outsider, even if dead
Widow: on your 1st night, choose a non-demon character: they are poisoned. 1 good player knows a Widow is in play
Godfather: just take out the starting info

[acoustic chasm]

Remove the / jinx

[zenith lotus]

make an exception to the / jinx when there's a bishop in play 😉

[acoustic chasm]

/ - The Vizier may open their eyes during voting.

ah wait

its change

not just add

mm

[sour harness]

That's a good jinx tho

Brutal for good ofc

[next vault]

As PhiloBH you turn a Townsfolk to Evil, it's a jynx.

You should never turn a Philo evil by the BH ability, it's just too strong to poisonlock a player while getting info that could be relevant (for example: Philo Dreamer info or Philo Golem/Virgin to get a kill.)

[zenith lotus]

i know its a jinx, the prompt is specifically to change a jinx

and i want to have better evil philo shenanigans than just philoing into the BH

and i do agree with you, it is entirely too strong to poisonlock the BH which is getting info that is insanely relevant AND ON TOP OF THAT find their evil team.

[next vault]

the only evil philo you should do is mez turned

[sour harness]

Ok but philo would be so fun as a minion ability

[zenith lotus]

what exactly is the difference between a BH turned philo and a mez turned philo other than that the mez turned philo cant choose BH?

[next vault]

Widow

[sour harness]

Yeah it's similar

[zenith lotus]

i think the point would be gaining the ability, not just the poison

[sour harness]

It would be both

[next vault]

Learning who the evil team isn't that broken

[sour harness]

If a virgin procs you might want to trust the virgin who didn't proc instead 👀

[zenith lotus]

mm, true

[next vault]

Philo-Golem

You just do Philo-Virgin after the virgin procs

to stall

[sour harness]

Yeah there's a bunch of different ways to play it

[next vault]

philo-golem to get an extra kill and force town to execute you

just nominate a confirmed player

or Philo-Philo 🧠

[zenith lotus]

beginner tip! go philo as philo, you get infinite abilities 😉

[next vault]

I once created a minion that gets all the info that town gets

[acoustic chasm]

that sounds... like a lot

not powerful just... x2 the night length :P

[next vault]

So it learns

(Drunk) Shugenja learned Clockwise
Grandma learned Innkeeper
...

It's quite powerful

[sour harness]

A spy can figure out both of these though??

I can see use cases tho

[next vault]

It also learns things like Chambermaid picks, Dreams...

[sour harness]

Yeah I was gonna say FT

[next vault]

FT too

[sour harness]

Snake charms?

[next vault]

Uhh never used Snarmer with it

it was mostly ambiguous

My way of thinking about it was

Can it get Vortox affected?

[sour harness]

Ah ok

[zenith lotus]

is it useful to know those things?

[young sonnet]

Spy that doesn't break w/ damsel and heretic

[zenith lotus]

i suppose with dreamer

[next vault]

You can build worlds easier

And push fake info

[sour harness]

Does your character also see the grim

[next vault]

nope

[sour harness]

Hm

[zenith lotus]

this does kind of break with damsel and heretic, because it is very easy to get caught in a lie

[young sonnet]

Well, in a chambermaid sense yes

If they bluff a character that learns stuff

It's not perfect

I'm not supporting or going against the idea, just was thinking out loud

[zenith lotus]

its definitely interesting

have you playtested it?

[next vault]

I played with it once

As an ST

Just took SnV and changed the Witch's ability (im not creative with names)

ended in an impossible Fang Gu jump

"Witch" bluffed Savant and spread a lot of misinfo

[ebon idol]

I have no idea how I was scrolled up that much on mobile but that’s what I saw first lmao

[next vault]

Poli + SoI is a bad interaction

Removes the outsidery part of Poli

[lucid crag]

Make Zealot need to vote yes on all cults!

(Well that's not really a change, more like an addition)

probably change the fearmonger and vizier jinx to be more terrifying

lol

[foggy grotto]

/ to literally anything that remotely makes sense

maybe a simple “a gambler can still die to an incorrect gamble even if the lycanthrope picks a good player”

causes some doubt between both lycan and gambler while also having the potential to be very hard confirming

[fast anchor]

what problem do you have with lycan/gambler?

it's a fine jinx imo

keeps both characters townsfolky

[young sonnet]

^^^^

[next vault]

What's the Lycan/Gambler jynx?

[karmic slate]

If the Lycanthrope is alive and the Gambler kills themself at night, no other players can die tonight.

A big problem with Lycanthrope + Gambler is the ocassions in which Lycanthrope attacks the Gambler as it confirms them to each other. If Lycan is allowed to attack the Gambler first then the Gambler doesn't wake and knows they were Lycanthrope killed (Yagga exceptions apply). If The Gambler is allowed to gamble first and does so wrong, then the Lycanthrope can't choose the Gambler meaning if they chose someone they thought was alive and then gets No means they know they chose the Gambler (Yagga exceptions apply)

[next vault]

Ohhh ok

So like

should never be in a script

[next vault]

lol

[acoustic chasm]

- The General's information is reversed instead of being false.

[sour harness]

Something similar for HP and fish too pls

[acoustic chasm]

Fish works fine

It has to be unhelpful

[barren zenith]

Amne too, but that's always bootlegged tho

[pseudo fulcrum]

||Daughter of Nox?!?|| unreleased character spoiler

||but yeah this wording technically doesn't work due to DoN wording||

[next vault]

Amne is already hard to get correctly

[foggy grotto]

wouldn’t getting neutral therefore confirm no vortox

[next vault]

neutral is like 0

0 * -1 = 0

[acoustic chasm]

As I said, instead of being false

[next vault]

you get neutral and it is neutral

so it's just better to do fake info

[acoustic chasm]

Its a jinx

So if gamestate is neutral in vortox then the general does get true info

Maybe that's not great. Or maybe it is. I don't know! I haven't tested it

[sour harness]

-# I mean I just don't like general

[karmic slate]

-0 😎

[next vault]

😎

[sour harness]

I wanna give a vortoxed mathematician a -1 and see what happens

[next vault]

Give it "i"

[hollow oasis]

Better idea

[next vault]

Or something like a matrix/quaternion/octonion

[hollow oasis]

Simply have a scale from -2,-1,1,2

Without neutral

Genius, can’t go wrong

[sour harness]

Fellow octonion enjoyer I see 👀

[next vault]

You learn

1 0 2
1 2 0
0 1 1

🤣

[hollow oasis]

Lol

[next vault]

You're a mathematician, do math or smth

[sour harness]

You learn:

You learn:

[next vault]

You learn

[sour harness]

You learn: -12(1+2+3+4+5+...)

(a perfectly valid math number actually)

[next vault]

isn't that just -inf

oh wait

yeah it is

[sour harness]

Riemann zeta function

Analytic continuation says it's 1

[next vault]

this is some 1+2+3+4+5+6... = -1/12 ahh stuff

No it is not

[sour harness]

Yes exactly

That's the exact thing I'm using

[next vault]

1+2+3+4+5+6+7 ISN'T -1/12

[sour harness]

Yeah because you forgot the +...

But, it's complicated

[next vault]

It just doesnt add up

[sour harness]

It depends on how you define your series

If it's a plain ol infinite series, yeah it diverges

But if you're using the Riemann zeta function, the fact that it's analytic means we can extend the domain to all complex numbers, even places where it should diverge, and get an actual result

And the Riemann zeta function is just a more general version of this

[next vault]

idk bruh I haven't do uni level maths 💀

[sour harness]

It's ok I'm just insane <3

[next vault]

[sour harness]

Reflection across the x axis

[hollow oasis]

On a 3d plane

[fast anchor]

took long enough for live voice to get a resident mathematician

text has had one for months

[analog idol]

Well, about the maths business. Its important to note that the analytic continuation of the zeta function is a different function that merely agrees with the infinite series definition of zeta as long as the argument has real part greater than 1. And -1/12 is the value of this continuation evaluated at -1.

now regarding jinxes, id like something for alchemist/baron, because an alchemist baron is just the worst. Maybe make it -1 outsiders instead.

[fast anchor]

Alch-Baron is extremely powerful on the right script

since an Alch-Baron can help confirm all the Outsiders if they're face-up

[sour harness]

True

[next vault]

Alchemist doesn't work with most minions

[analog idol]

That’s a big if, there are loads of outsiders that don’t want to come out. Or outsiders that can’t even come out. Really the only good use I can see if there is a lunatic on the script

[acoustic chasm]

true...

but

Baron works best with hidden outsiders

At least 1

Thats why Drunk+Baron works so well on TB

[sour harness]

True, but it works fine with a [-1 Outsider] character (currently only vigor, godfather doesn't count because reasons)

[hollow oasis]

ah, that reason

i love +1 godfather = baron -1 godfather

(FUN INTERACTION)

[sour harness]

Oh also LoT is good with it but that's different

And not a universal opinion

[hollow oasis]

Kazali (shrugs)

[sour harness]

Kazali is distinct here

Because it's player choice, not ST choice

[analog idol]

I mean the -1 outsider on the godfather sounds useful if you're having an alchemist-godfather. That's another thing I was thinking about, would a -1 outsiders on the balloonist make sense or would that make it too strong? Cause with less outsiders it becomes more likely that at least every second person you learn is evil.

[zenith lotus]

the reason balloonist has positive outsider mod is SO every second person you learn isnt evil

[analog idol]

Yeah, but the way it is the balloonist feels a bit weak to me, especially with the +1 outsider malus. I think one player of each character type was a more balanced ability

But that’s just my opinion ofc

[next vault]

Balloonist is a much stronger bluff right now and there's players here who know that very well

Even then you can puzzle the inconsistencies and you won't solve the game by yourself if you are alive on day 4, which is what made old Balloonist so strong

Balloon +1 is like Fang Gu +1, it is needed to have the character work

[analog idol]

Yes, but right now the +1 is an artifact of that original design

[next vault]

You still need +1 to not get evil every other night on base 0

It also has +0

[analog idol]

Yeah, fair enough then

It just gets progressively weaker with more outsiders in the game

[next vault]

And again, Balloon is very good once you piece it out. (day 3-4 at most)

And it's a stupidly strong bluff

[analog idol]

It would be harder to bluff as with a fixed outsider manipulation though

[next vault]

Depends on script (Lunatic, Damsel, Mutant, Drunk...) dont want to out or just cant

[analog idol]

I mean one great benefit of a balloonist is that it incentivises the evil team to bluff as outsiders

[next vault]

It depends, at some point outsider count is not counting

[foggy grotto]

just don’t give a balloonist an outsider N2

it’s that simple

[naive flame]

The debates 👀

[sour harness]

4/2: tell us about a memorable game you had involving a fabled

[fierce reef]

evil matron moved all the evil team together into a line and no one noticed 😭

[sour harness]

-# matron, my favorite fabled /j

[foggy grotto]

A minion in a 1 player game doomsayed knowing full well what would happen

they were not the SW

[sour harness]

PFFF

[fast anchor]

so close!! that is a traveler 💕

[sour harness]

Might as well be a fabled tbh

[fierce reef]

😉 :P

[lucid crag]

I ran a game where 1 player was a rev pair with themself. I added gardener and made them Mutant and Pixie, was amazing

Though was also very scuffed and I do not recommend 1 person rev pairs lol

[next marlin]

The one time I ever played Kaboom I rolled gambler and got doomsaid in the first 15 seconds of d1

Immediate daybreak
"I would like to doomsay"
"vati dies"

[pliant grail]

Had a game where there were four total alignment changes without a cult leader due to a rev pair'd mez turned philo politician

[sour harness]

LOL what'd the pixie see

[next marlin]

As someone who would go philo poli, going philo poli while in a rev pair is unhinged and I respect it

[pliant grail]

to be clear, went philo poli (while in a rev pair) before they were mez turned, and the mez turned them without their knowledge

[next marlin]

[lucid crag]

Vortox game so pixie saw Artist when Artist was a bluff

SW was exed super early and would of been outed evil

but barber died

and marionette was swapped with the pixie

so I was actually able to give them "artist" info

when normally I wouldn't of

there was also a stormcaught dreamer

except dreamer was drunk

I gave the good mario pixie and the drunk dreamer correct info

vortox was never figured out

#1260308710904037506

Also it was an RP game

[zenith lotus]

oh i was in kib for that game

that was hilarious

[lucid crag]

prob best game I've run, not sure

[sharp violet]

Watched is this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaKDpb_KUA0&t=23

Played is probably a Revolutionary used for accesibility reasons which of all characters in the bag got Virgin, Good still lost

(They were paired with a Drunk Ravenkeeper and no one saw it coming)

[sour harness]

Oh I love that actually

[ebon idol]

I have seen this clip probably like 2 dozen times it never gets old 😂

[zenith lotus]

9/19: What's your favorite and least favorite role to give to a pixie?

[barren zenith]

Favourite: pixie

Least favourite: poppy grower

[zenith lotus]

same for the least favorite

my favorite is fisherman

[barren zenith]

Artist is probably completely overpowered

As well as PG

[sour harness]

One time I bluffed pixie atheist, that was fun

Pixie farmer is fun but probably bad for game balance

[vale oxide]

Atheist

[sly crescent]

cannibal is nice, when og is executed u get pixie-cannibal-cannibal-cannibal-cannibal-... ad infinitem among other fun things that can happen

[young sonnet]

Pixie savant is funny

[fast anchor]

fav: philo - super strong but also super funny (esp with mez where evil pixie philo does some sinister silent drunking)
least: pixie

also noble, because i don't wanna do more than one set of noble pings if i don't have to

[young sonnet]

^^^ noble was my second choice

You have some much freedom to do mind games with the players

Keeping exactly one player from the first set of pings

[fast anchor]

idk, it's a pain in the ass for me tbh

[sour harness]

Wait a sec can a philo pixie see philo

I'm imagining there's a pixie philo as well

[sour harness]

Just give the exact same set of players except there was a snake charm since the first noble pings went out

[shrewd cloud]

Flashbacks to the game where there were like 3 pieces of Noble information town had to dissect

Actual Noble
Cannibal Noble
My fake Philo-Noble info (that just so happened to share people that were in the other two pings so people believed it was legit)

I got the Pixie token and was told a Philo was in play. So I bluffed Philo that went Noble on N2. But there ended up being no actual Philo because I was Marionette lmao

The funny part is that everyone in my fake Noble ping ended up being evil

[zenith lotus]

nice

[lucid crag]

As someone who gave pixie artist in a vortox game, I must say I disagree /j

[primal crescent]

9/21: What are some of the funniest moments you’ve had playing clocktower

[fiery finch]

Chambermaid 3 then 5 on consecutive minstrel nights. Good still lost

also moonchild picked the demon day one

[lean isle]

Getting ceremad N1 as my own role was quite funny.

N2 someone else got ceremad as their own role I think.

[vale oxide]

Off script Atheist was funny

[young sonnet]

A specific person getting the same token (Empath) literally 6 games in a row by sheer random chance (they were jokingly mad about it)

[wispy nest]

I think it was an 7 player confirm chain by day 2

And plus it was a battle against the north and south grim

Good win easily

[random tusk]

Someone getting evil like 18/20 games they've played and winning 16 of them

that was absurd

💀

[sour harness]

I had a brand new player pull imp, scarlet, pukka

In game 3 we accidentally convinced her she was the lunatic

She also pulled saint not long after

[flat lintel]

Winrate?

[sour harness]

She lost her first 6 games

I think she's played 8 now and won once but I could be wrong

[flat lintel]

must be rough, but at least she loved it enough to play 8

[sour harness]

Oh yeah she had fun

It was rough but in a funny way

[dense moat]

*spec @quiet venture

[low burrow]

You are now shadowing efaclaire

[foggy grotto]

9/22
for all the TF2heads out there, which tf2 merc would be the best at clocktower and why (bonus points if you say literally anyone except spy)

[young sonnet]

Lmfao

[young sonnet]

Pyro, no one can read him socially

Also, not a Merc, but Merasmus can make a ||Wizard|| wish

The Administrator would absolutely crush at Clocktower though

[foggy grotto]

TRUE

[fast anchor]

miss pauling

if i must answer the actual question then i think all of them would kinda suck but engie would suck the least for being the most well-adjusted? maybe heavy because he's really smart but the language barrier really hurts him

[ebon idol]

I feel like pyro would be good at it

Mainly because you can’t see his face

Hard to social read, all you can hear is “mmmphf!!”

Unfortunately it makes it bad at communicating

[fast anchor]

if pyro gets an actual inforole hes fucked is the thing

[ebon idol]

True

[fast anchor]

be me, evil twin mathematician
12p game of sects & violets
rest of team is cere fg
time to bluff straight 0s
d2 there's a dreamer dc and a philo dc
savant info is "2 players switched characters last night / barista doubled an evil"
that's f/t, let's execute the good player in the dreamer dc
barista sobers the savant
"exactly 1 player is poisoned / chef 0"
okay but my demon didn't get snakecharmed wtf
GT is a newer player so decide to bluff a 0 instead of a 1 the day after and make them seem cluelessly bluffing a different number for funsies
no kills happening, our demon is being such a prankster rn
clueless.jpg
get executed after evil harlot "confirms me"
GAME FUCKING ENDS

so the dreamer dc was the snake who charmed my demon n2 and neither said a fucking word the whole game

i led the charge to execute my own demon

[next marlin]

Twin mathematicians in a fang gu game is pretty funny

[supple dirge]

My best approximate of tf2 mercs to clocktower characters. I will not be accepting questions.

Scout - Virgin
Soldier - General
Heavy - Golem
Demo - Drunk
Pyro - Village idiot
Medic - Professor
Engie - Tinker
Sniper - Gunslinger
Spy - Spy

[next vault]

Why would you not say ANYTHING about being Snake Charmed?

Like, the whole idea is that the Demon outs the evil team and bluffs and now the new demon is cooked

[next marlin]

We were just talking about this in #storytelling, it's a thing people do for Wild Plays™️ purposes

[foggy grotto]

soldier not being soldier is criminal

same thing with engie

[foggy grotto]

for me it’s

Scout - Acrobat
Soldier - Soldier
Pyro - Pyschopath
Demo - Boomdandy
Heavy - Golem
Engie - Engineering
Medic - Pacifist
Sniper - Huntsman
Spy - Spy

although huntsman is just cause of the name of the sniper bow in tf2

[supple dirge]

(I completely forgot engineer was also a townsfolk lol)

[next vault]

be me
cerenovus
poppygrower (this is jover)
I make someone mad as the BH so they fake a BH ping
I wake up and that person is on a twin pair
bluff Balloonist
demon dies d2 or so
realize i've cerelocked the good twin because of evil twin shugenja info
everyone believes me
push on the good twin
leave (dinner)

[naive flame]

I WAS THERE!

[naive flame]

Favorite: 🧑‍🎨
Least Fav: (they never commit to the bit)

[naive flame]

#mathematician-was-right-all-along

Gamesolved The Game so Fast with my Math 1.

(the fact I was ND Poisoned too-)

[foggy grotto]

math getting anything but a 0 on N1 usually solves the game

[next marlin]

I see so many STs give poisoned mathematicians n1 1s because "they'll assume the poison is somewhere else"

It never works

[foggy grotto]

thoughts on giving a math a 15 on a vortox game if they’re a good twin?

[barren zenith]

If you grow 5 fingers, sure

[next marlin]

I've mentioned in the past that I want to outright do this

Not 15

But I want to run math twins in vortox where the good twin's numbers are outlandish obv-vortox

See what the evil twin does and what town does

Hopefully the twins roll close enough to each other on the grim that I can give the distance between them as the vortoxed clock number so they look like bluffed twins

[sour harness]

I wanna give em a 3 n1 in a not vortox game

[next marlin]

We were working through how it's technically possible to have a true 6 n1 in snv

It requires multiple n1 madness executions and the demon barberswapping themselves with a philo drunk mutant

[sour harness]

Oh that's hilarious actually

[foggy grotto]

you mean n2?

[sour harness]

Executions can happen at night

[next marlin]

No, n1, before d1

[foggy grotto]

good golly ms molly

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What are your favourite characters from a design perspective? Not the ones you think are coolest/most interesting/most fun, but the ones you like the design of most, whether they're your overall favourites or not

Personal answers:

[young sonnet]

Those are three strong picks. I have to say Fang Gu, Cannibal, Pixie, Ogre, Gambler, Goon, Cerenovus, and Snake Charmer

[foggy grotto]

just turning someone into an alcoholic mourner is pretty creative

also saying he’s not a mutant and instead a real person like everyone else is pretty clever

[sharp violet]

[next marlin]

I was thinking in terms of game design but vibes answers are also valid

[sharp violet]

🙂

[next marlin]

My vibes answers are different

[sharp violet]

Acrobat is my favorite combination of mechanics and flavor

[next marlin]

(notably, Cerenovus and Vigormortis are definitely very high vibes answers and also pretty janky)

[next marlin]

Mutant is hilarious yeah

[supple dirge]

I'm curious what you see as the flavor. 'Someone near me is drunk so I die' never made that much sense to me in theme

[sterile flame]

what was the question?

[foggy grotto]

they’re holding the rope

[lucid crag]

if a drunk can't tie their shoes, I'm sure you don't want them tying the end of the tightrope you're walking on.

[lucid crag]

I like the design (whatever the hell that means) of:

's token
's group dynamic
's function of being a liability as an outsider but still sometimes being useful
's flavor as its life is constantly in danger messing with weird gizmos all the time

[vale oxide]

[supple dirge]

I like al-had a lot and the dynamics it creates. The demon choosing players in the right order to maximize kills, good players betting what others picked, being able to choose if you die if you get a benefit from that, characters that can protect from night time death screwing with your choices, the demon being able to pick dead people to bring back minions, the demon needing to pick themselves sometimes to avoid suspicion or not picking someone else to frame them. Its a lot of interesting scenarios to play with.

[next vault]

[sour harness]

I feel like we take assassin for granted. It's genuinely super cool design and BMR wouldn't remotely work without it

[karmic slate]

[young sonnet]

The thing about assassin is it's pretty straightforward in terms of character design

I'm sure if we were given BMR but with a blank space instead of assassin, a lot of people would invent assassin

A lot of people play TB and think "what if there was a minion that could kill too"

[pseudo fulcrum]

[sour harness]

I agree and I don't think that detracts from anything

[dense moat]

All solid designs

[pseudo fulcrum]

oh i forgot about ogre

yeah that too

[acoustic chasm]

[fast anchor]

BUTLER 🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥

[karmic slate]

When you realise there's more to it than "Can't vote" it's really good design... just has mechanical issues

[copper quail]

[barren zenith]

Goblin

[wispy nest]

Just speaking gets a kill which I think is cool

[sour harness]

[time is real again]: what are your favorite characters from a pure aesthetic standpoint? This is intentionally vague, but some examples might be characters with a cool icon or name, or even flavor text that you like the vibe of in combination with the rest of the character

[zenith lotus]

fearmonger. love the icon

[agile sigil]

DA. Don't know if another name so perfectly matches the character

Oh and Politician if you play and run it well is totally on brand

[sour harness]

Mine are

Cere and vigor are first for a reason lol

2 of the coolest names for monsters/etc in fiction imo

[abstract cosmos]

conceptually and based off flavour text is so interesting, in practice not so much

[gray ridge]

[copper quail]

If it is about the icons probably

[supple dirge]

This looming threat everyone knows is coming to kill them all

[foggy grotto]

Vortox flavor text 😍😍😍

[vale oxide]

To everything you mentioned

But the official icon

[barren zenith]

Lil monsta flavour text too!

[sharp violet]

Golem and Lord of Typhon

[fierce reef]

9/26 (i thought of a good idea so posting this early): what is a role you wish you got more often?

for me, damsel

[fierce reef]

LoT and acrobat

idk acrobat gives me nice vibes

i love solving using it

[sour harness]

Literally any minion but in particular a SnV minion but in particular cerenovus

[dense hound]

Mutant

[zenith lotus]

marionette

[dense hound]

No pls

[zenith lotus]

its great

[dense hound]

Reminds me of that day I was marionette three times in four games

being marionette-empath two of them

[sour harness]

I wanna be the demon WITH a marionette

And ideally a grimpeeker

[fast anchor]

Pit-Hag; it seems so fun but I've never pulled the token before

Bonus points if it's on HHR or another levi script but I'll take anywhere tbh

honorable mention: I need my Widow redemption game

i had sticky fingers for the token in my irl group last year and I need to run those Catfishing games back

[foggy grotto]

SAME

[foggy grotto]

Politician, I have never gotten it ONCE

i have a list of characters ive never been, and it slowly dwindels down but that stupid remains

[sour harness]

Oh also I wanna be the goblin

The only time I pulled it was a heretic game so I couldn't get the goblin win

But I'm pretty confident I could've gotten it if we went for it

[supple dirge]

I've never been the marionette, or been the demon with a marionette. I've never had someone tell me I'm the marionette, I'd really like to be on both sides of that and see how it'd go for me.

[sour harness]

The one time I was the marionette my info solved the game for good because of an oversight

I was the "cannibal" confirming the "soldier" who was in a role swap with the slayer. They shot my only living neighbor

[next marlin]

lol same answer
I need to play more snv at exactly 10p so I have a proportionately higher chance of rolling minion (13p works too but I'd rather run 3 minion snv than play it)

[sour harness]

Same but if I'm a minion in a 10p vigor game I'm gonna be a bit sad

[next marlin]

Great give me the 10p vigor games instead

[sour harness]

Sure I'll ST

[next marlin]

[sour harness]

Being an outsider at base 0 is fun tho

[next marlin]

In my local meta no one EVER outs mutant in base 0 and I'm always so confused when people in other metas are like "yeah base 0 fang gu is the worst the one outsider just dies instantly"

[sour harness]

This is how you get a sweetheart causing max damage

[next marlin]

10p fang gu does have the unfortunate characteristic of swinging ludicrously hard based on presence/absence of a pithag (7p and 13p don't have this problem the same way)

[sour harness]

If the meta is to execute the 1 Outsider, make them pay for doing so lol

Wait why not 7p?

[next marlin]

in 7p just don't put in a goddamn pithag

[sour harness]

Ok but consider: funny

Just do power vs power lol

[next marlin]

7p the game is less likely to have enough info to "need" a jump and pithag kinda doesn't do a ton in a game where it only gets to act twice anyway
13p evil has a lot more firepower and the good/evil ratio after a jump isn't as bad
10p you have 4v6 if you get a jump off, which is wild, but often the witch is going to accidentally curse the mutant or something, so if the outsider does die you're kinda boxed in while if you have a pithag it just becomes wild

[sour harness]

Hmmm alright

[next marlin]

(Philo continues 100% unabated rate of going snakecharmer)

[sour harness]

Yeah probably

[next marlin]

I have been consciously putting philo in the bag a lot more lately because it's a role I underuse in play/overuse as a bluff and so far it is still literally, with no exceptions, 100% snake charmer

I swear to god

[sour harness]

Oh no

It's a really fun bluff tho

"oops I drunked your role sowwy 🥺"

[next marlin]

I recently ran a 14p+traveller game with a barista-doubled cerenovus who locked a player as savant, chose a new player as savant each day, and bluffed philo-savant

There was also a real savant

It was ultimately an octuple claim

(town completely forgot about the barista and didn't get around to exiling him until d4 when they realized he might have something to do with the savant claims)

[sour harness]

Like, consistently barista doubled?

[next marlin]

Yes
I was going to move it at some point but it was too impressive

[sour harness]

Normally I'd say that's boring but if it played out well then that's just funny

[next marlin]

It was an impressive game

Everyone on a 15p grim was named Chris as a bit so I could barely keep track of everyone

The pithag turned himself into a philo-dreamer, made the real dreamer drunk without knowing (dreamer was the guy locked as savant), and the dreamer saw the demon as artist/witch

[gray ridge]

Psychopath or organ grinder

Alchemist

[austere steppe]

Savant

[pliant grail]

Pit hag definitely
90% of my botc dream plays involve a pit hag
1: classic, make good demons. Specifically, make two of the demons on the script, then claim that I turned into the actual demon's type so that people think that the fourth is the one that's been in play
2: survive until the end, turn myself into a virgin/golem/psychopath
3. Work with a cerenovous to make someone ceremad that they're a character, wait a day or two, turn them into that character and then name them ceremad that they're their original character

[vale oxide]

Poliiii

Got it in my first game and never again (pretty sure)

[lean isle]

Really incentivised to hide Outsiders (Damsel, Heretic, PD, etc.)

[fast anchor]

tba occultist 🤩

[sharp violet]

Philosopher, Butler, Scarlet Woman, Zombuul

[copper quail]

I already get that role sometimes but if I can roll more Savant I will never say no

Other than that maybe Pixie and Empath

[wispy nest]

I love being outsiders and I love being the mutant

[sly crescent]

Philosopher/Cerenovus. a lot of potential to shape the game but not the most responsibility

e.g. Pit-Hag would fit the first part, but just like SW has to deal with potential demonhood if the situation demands it

[naive flame]

[naive flame]

Townsfolk: Alchemist

Outsider: Sweetheart/Butler

Minion: Goblin/Summoner/Pit-hag

Demon: Fang gu/Legion

[foggy grotto]

9/27: What character abilities would be a lot funnier/better if they had "even if dead" attached to them?

[wispy nest]

Mutant

lol

But the whole text has to be reworked

[next marlin]

Yeah mutant is more or less the objective answer

Cult Leader could be funny

[zenith lotus]

goon

[next marlin]

Mayor could produce an interesting dynamic

But it'd lose much of the reason for mayors to cling to life

Mutant is just such a centralizing answer

[zenith lotus]

wait...

acrobat 😉

[acoustic chasm]

Tinker

they can die even if dead

[sour harness]

Imp & fang gu

Any traveller

[zenith lotus]

doesnt that make them busted?

[sour harness]

Yes

[acoustic chasm]

boffin

[zenith lotus]

lol

[sour harness]

Virgin

Snake charmer

Damsel (I used to think this was just true)

...fool?

[zenith lotus]

heretic

"Whoever wins, loses & whoever loses, wins, even if you are dead, even if dead"

[acoustic chasm]

butler

[sour harness]

Zealot

[vale oxide]

Butler for sure

[foggy grotto]

infinite dead vote glitch

[vale oxide]

It would be interesting

They have to avoid dying if they want to vote in f3

[sour harness]

It's interesting but probably not very fun

[dense hound]

Goon

[fast anchor]

dang it, i was gonna say goon

Sailor

[zenith lotus]

you fools, i already said goon

[dusky minnow]

Virgin would be interesting since they could proc after night death

Snake charmer would mean that they can swap with a demon and immediatly lose

[fast anchor]

Baron

[dense moat]

[lean isle]

"Even if dead" Fearmonger 🔥

[sour harness]

https://tenor.com/view/devilish-grin-gif-15993726

[lean isle]

Actually, it would keep paranoia whether or not being dead. Not bad as I immediately thought.

[fresh shard]

I don't know about "a lot", but Lunatic would be better with that text

[barren zenith]

For the zombuul, right?

[fresh shard]

Yeah

[sour harness]

Also exorcisms lol

[sharp violet]

Boffin

[austere steppe]

I think cere is perfect

[dense hound]

yeah but you were the first one to so you got drunk

so it doesnt count

[zenith lotus]

lol

[lucid crag]

now sure this makes choirboy pointless

[sharp violet]

Q: What is your favorite (Boffin) interaction that:

1. You would would want to see on a script
2. You would absolutely would not want to see on a script

[wispy nest]

Boffin banshee

[next marlin]

1. Alchemist-Pithag
2. Alchemist-Pithag

[wispy nest]

LOL

[lucid crag]

+ + +

aside from the obvious reasons of it being bad, it sounds amazing

evil has 5 days to find their team

or lose

note* Alsaahir is good win, not your team wins, so useful in a heretic game only

now of course good could just exe 2 goods and win but it's about the principle!

[barren zenith]

bounty hunter evil heretic sorts it, right?

[lucid crag]

maybe, idk

[vale oxide]

BH has to turn a townsfolk

[vale oxide]

That sounds really easy

[barren zenith]

true

[dusky minnow]

Professor Shabaloth would be funny

[sour harness]

1. i love this question! there are so many creative ways to use this character :D I really like (), partially because it can actually function as real outsider mod, and the info it gives is also cool. I also love () on a , it gives the choice between 1 chosen kill or many non-chosen kills. honorable mentions to

[gray ridge]

1. 
2. 

[fierce reef]

soooooo this actually happened in a livetext

spoilers #livetext-game message

[next marlin]

I read that earlier and it confirmed my existing belief that it's the best, worst, and funniest possible boffin

10/10

[fierce reef]

(was a teensy, ||evil won after a 50/50 shot in f3||)

[lucid crag]

boffin alch goblin does nothing right?

[sour harness]

boff-alch-goblin means that as long as the demon claims goblin when nominated, good can't win via execution

because the demon can just claim goblin and win

ofc they can kill the boffin

[lucid crag]

why doesn't same rules as lil monsta apply where goblin holding monsta still loses?

[sour harness]

skill issue, kill the boffin

if you want to rule it that way thats fine

but it doesnt actually break the game

[zenith lotus]

thats a specific exception

because it is physically impossible for good to win the game

[sour harness]

unless you vigorkill the boffin and good cant deal with it

[lucid crag]

based

[zenith lotus]

true, that could be a problem

[sour harness]

#botc-memes message

scroll up from there for the script

i might make this into a full script with

[next marlin]

Heretic exists so it's a reasonable and balanced interaction

[sour harness]

though i think it's better as a teensy

[sour harness]

mhm yep definitely

[next marlin]

I noticed this interaction shortly after boffin dropped and I've been consistently admiring the detail of "winnable only with heretic, an outsider, with a negative outsider mod character"

[sour harness]

lol

[sly crescent]

Apprentice-Boffin holding LM giving themselves Pixie-Philosopher-Cannibal-... ability. just for the unnecessary complexity

[analog idol]

Shouldn’t executing the goblin-demon result in a victory for good? Because both win conditions are met simultaneously and in case of a draw, good wins. Same with vortox/mayor in a final three

[next marlin]

Ability wincons trump base wincons

Good ability > evil ability > good base > evil base

[barren zenith]

RAW no, but it's how most people would run that

[next marlin]

See the "demon with a twin pair" f3 scenario for a base script example

[next marlin]

There's no reason for it to, as stated earlier -- it's not a goblin-LM situation because "kill the boffin lol"

The only context where it's unwinnable for good without other intervention is if the boffin is vigorkilled

[barren zenith]

Alright

[next marlin]

The correct answer to that scenario is to not let a boffin give a goblin ability to a vigor because everyone knows exactly what'll happen if you do that, come on; the funny answer is Heretic

[pseudo fulcrum]

29/09: Thoughts on Steven Approved Order?

an explanation of the order is in #general

[next marlin]

atheist still not last

[sour harness]

It's so okay

I haven't noticed anything super different without looking for something super different

[sour harness]

You mean one of many funny answers

[sly crescent]

horrible name change

like sorting out any issues, even if cosmetic, but cmon. u takeover a thing u don't keep the name backronyming urself into it. imagine Garry buys google and says it's now Garry's O....

[next marlin]

What other meme answers are possible, I was gonna say Atheist but that doesn't work

Oh I should put a bootlegger on the script that the engineer can make an atheist though

(it "might" add or remove heretic)

[next marlin]

Oh I literally just remembered that the way I run vigor/sc is a houserule, yeah you can also technically make it winnable through a snakecharm

Which is less insane than "winnable only through heretic"

Not much less insane

[sly crescent]

anything that's avoidable by legal moves of ST is fine assuming a perfectly spherical ST in a vacuum

[next marlin]

We need a quotes page

[sly crescent]

even in 15p game Pit-Hag can't force a specific Boffin ability only 1 of 3 with a 13/4/4/4 script in LM game, so anything silly is fine unless there's 3?

[dense hound]

I feel like people keep making these "impossible" boffin abilities if vigorkilled keep forgetting preacher can preach dead players

[next marlin]

Preacher/Vigor is an absolutely terrible interaction so

(admittedly, might be a necessary evil here)

[dense hound]

I mean....no offense but look at the script

[next marlin]

Engineer and courtier also make it more viable and are less oppressive

[dense hound]

I feel like bad interactions are gonna happen

[next marlin]

Oh it's 100% a meme script

I'd rather engi/vigor and courtier/vigor for those interactions though

Also they're funnier boffins themselves

Preacher/vigor is probably my single least favourite interaction that people put on scripts with regularity (as opposed to obviously bad ones no one does) so I religiously object to it even in a ridiculous unplayable meme teensy intended for bad interactions

[sly crescent]

i don't see Preacher that often, but i'll keep an eye out didn't occur to me

[sour harness]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/620323504805380136/1289639493359370340/JANK_JANK_JANK_JANK_real.png?ex=66fadf5f&is=66f98ddf&hm=22ab3f525af1f470980f64ed0c26d4804caac03b2f6efd3f8e50df49e57dc2d7&

[fast anchor]

Puzzlemaster and Mezepheles are so so wrong i hate it

why is PM at the bottom
why is mez at the top
what the FUCK is marionette doing halfway up the minion list

[barren zenith]

Amnesiac too 😭

[fast anchor]

amne is fine to me tbh

[next vault]

Oh shit, new character

I don't think it's that good

[acoustic chasm]

I think its funny

[sour harness]

^

[dense moat]

Its not amazing but it does have uses. Unfortunately, it also enables some really bad scriptbuilding

[acoustic chasm]

such as? 👀

[barren zenith]

Every hard-confirmed role + boffin isn't good imo

[acoustic chasm]

ye

[barren zenith]

I think that's what was being referred to

[austere steppe]

I think it's at the right power level and agency for botc. It's not gamewarping by itself, and the ST has a choice in how broken it is. It mostly spends a minion ability to get an extra semi-confirmable bluff.

Some of the interactions are a bit stupid tho, sailor is probably not a good choice.

[lost thistle]

no they've just released the fool

[naive flame]

Damsel would be hard..

What if..

Fang gu

Fang gu jumping even as dead

[naive flame]

[sour harness]

i used to think damsel was like this lol

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: What are the craziest comebacks you've seen a team make?

I once ran a game where by the morning of d2, the starting demon:

1. was in a correct puzzleguess
2. was in an FT yes
3. was accidentally implicated by widow-poisoned savant info
4. had outed demon to the politician, who was playing for good and outed him
5. had one of his minions executed d1
   There was a scarlet woman, who was confirmed by the same implicatory savant info (about outsiders and evil players -- the scarlet was the starting sweetheart in a kazali game, who kept claiming sweetheart). Evil won

[lean isle]

Wow, that's impressive.