secret thing

[sharp violet]

(There was a Lycan so the Demon couldn't even kill the Innkeeper)

[next marlin]

Catfishing is really fun, though probably not "my favourite" (it is full of weird interactions that have been discussed into the ground at this point)

My solo Kazali script Clockwork Cyborg has turned out to be an absolute joy to run, and people keep coming back for it and praising how fun it is, and it's turned out to be remarkably well-balanced in the context of Kazali's inherent swinginess

There are a lot of "near-SnV" scripts that look fun that I'd like to playtest more

[lucid crag]

Dreamcatcher (or whatever relic called it) was very enjoyable to run

[spiral pollen]

Extension cord easily

[cloud plover]

Have you heard of our lord and savior Word Around Town?

[sharp violet]

8/8: What's the most average character?

[zenith lotus]

noble. You can put it literally anywhere on normal size scripts and it’ll work. It gives good world building info, but def not strong enough to solve on its own

[vale oxide]

[fast anchor]

wins for sure

is also up there

Same with to an extent?

[flat lintel]

pretty much works on almost every script?? also creates worlds

too

[dense hound]

Steward > noble imo

For more average

[fast anchor]

Steward is kinda below-average imo

[sour harness]

is so unbelievably normal it hurts

too, though maybe it's a little extra powerful

[cloud plover]

[fast anchor]

Poisoner is above average I think

Same with Monk but it’s close

[foggy grotto]

mfs when they don’t know what character to put in their medium/high info script

https://tenor.com/view/fish-spin-sha-gif-26863370

[peak adder]

feesh

[indigo osprey]

Fisherman is a fun character and that’s why it ends up ok a lot of scripts

[foggy grotto]

oh i 100% agree

it’s just very average

[indigo osprey]

Isn't that also because storyteller's make it average? It also just doesn't feel too good to give a fisherman game winning advice

[sour harness]

"execute the demon"

Ya fish is very on-the-fly balancable

[dense hound]

"don't execute the demon" as poisoned advice with heretic on script

[indigo osprey]

My most recent lleech-hosted fisherman advice was: 'Keep the psychopath away from Player X' (player X was the demon)

Another fisherman advice I gave a while ago was: 'Keep doing what you are doing'

She was arguing for the correct worlds in town square, so that sounded like solid adivce

[sour harness]

That's cool advice tho

[indigo osprey]

Thank you

What I tried to pretend to convey was: 'the amnesiac (that was the lleech bluffing) has an important ability, so keeping them alive requires town to make them sus as a potential demon candidate, so the psychopath woudn' tkill them' :p

but obviously, the real truth was: they were the lleech and the psychopath would never kill them :p

anyway, they did figure out in final 3 that she had to be the lleech and that the fisherman was lleech hosted, so they executed the lleech host and won

[dense hound]

Oh damn they got the psychopath?

[foggy grotto]

i once gave “don’t execute X” as fisherman info when X was the boomdandy but unfortunately the fisherman decided to take this to mean that X was 100% good and preceded to lose the game after a barber swap

[ebon idol]

🥹

[dense moat]

8/9: Which BOTC characters would you most want to see on Survivor? And who would win?

[midnight bloom]

somebody who probably has survival skills
somebody who definitely isn't fit for survivor but might be popular with the viewers anyway
somebody who also definitely shouldn't be on survivor but who people love to hate
possible winner because survivor is a social game

[sour harness]

"We must keep our wits sharp and our sword sharper. Evil walks among us, and will stop at nothing to destroy us good, simple folk, bringing our fine town to ruin. Trust no-one. But, if you must trust someone, trust me."

[indigo osprey]

Cannibal.

And Cannibal.

[primal crescent]

Congratulations! You have found a hidden advantage in this game.
The next time a player is voted out, you will gain all advantages and idols that they left with.
This last time this can be used is when there are 6 players in the game.

[primal crescent]

8/10: What about some characters would you change?

[fast anchor]

Professor can only resurrect people who died at night

[next marlin]

Probably my most "neither a very cold take (e.g. huntsman tweaks) or a very hot take (e.g. no vigor -1)" tweak is Choirboy triggering if the King is nightkilled for any reason, not just by the demon (so can't be trivially assassinated et al)

Or even dies of any non-execution cause

Which would work better towards the idea you need to frame the king if you don't get rid of the choirboy (or I guess cerelock them, but not all interactions can be made to work)

[indigo osprey]

this is the most correct answer

Vigormortis killed minions can vote without death votes too. (Sure, it reveals they were vigorkilled, but that's their choice.)

Vortox-poison/drunk should still be arbitrary info, imo.

[lucid crag]

Lycanthrope and golems rejoice

[next marlin]

Some bugs still need to be worked out yeah

"Killed by an evil player's ability"

(also solves the cerelock problem)

[vale oxide]

"Dead" Zombuul too?

[vale oxide]

Return the old Balloonist 😅

[indigo osprey]

not necessarily, but I can convinced of this

[next marlin]

Would be funny on the "zombuul or vigor-killed goblin" scripts

[dense hound]

The only problem I see with this is people being forced to ghost vote to "test if it works!" or something, the ST can stop this by just not allowing it to count since it was obviously pressured but it can still be annoying

[lucid crag]

I mean that's the same mentality of "If they don't drown they're a witch"

If they do drown you waste a good dead vote

[dense hound]

Idk if thats the best comparison considering them not drowning actually means something this time

[next marlin]

Realistically the problem with this is that Vigor's strength is allowing high-value risky bluffspace that tends to fall apart if you try do it for six days (e.g. bluffing non-vortoxed dreamer in snv while cerelocking someone), and outing evil is contradictory

But it's a very fun idea

Works on scripts with vigor-killed psychopath type stuff

[lucid crag]

All I'm saying is it's impossible to force someone to do this

Regardless if the dead person is evil or good

[dense hound]

I mean I'd argue that good players losing their dead vote makes it a worst problem, because people would absolutely still do this

I've seen people try before realizing thats not how zombuul works

[lucid crag]

Maybe if they're a fool /j

[indigo osprey]

it's not that difficult to shut down 'hey, try and cheat and see if the storyteller allows it'

[dense hound]

Well I did say that's probably the stop in my first message

I still also think it has a problem because being unable to stop minions from having voting and abilities likely isn't fun, the tradeoff is supposed to be theyre dead

[sly crescent]

good players being able to prove they are not vigor-killed minions would be pretty bad. basically everyone has a public version of a Beggar ability

regardless of pressure issues, it'd a tool for good team to gain information that far outweighs the extra minion votes

[sly crescent]

Djinn - has a proper write-up.

[indigo osprey]

How do ‘good players have a tool’ without them trying to cheat after spending their death vote’?

‘Being able to vote without a death vote’ is different from ‘not spending a death vote when voting’. So you’d first have to spend a death vote and then vote again, afaisi. Doesn’t seem to valuable for a good player to do so, especilly because ‘I am going to try to cheat and you’ll see: the ST will stop me!!!’ Is not a tactic that people should try to do

‘I am not allowed to raise my hand as a dead player when voting, because I don’t have a death token’ is simply not something one can try to do circumcent

[next marlin]

Oh, I was parsing it as "unspent deadvote"

Yeah that's interesting and possibly workable

Because if you're not outed by it instantly, you can 'waste' your deadvote early then pull an evils-rise-up in f3

[indigo osprey]

Not what it said, but I can see why one would think that if one glances over it, I guess

[dense hound]

I feel like even if it worked like that it wouldn't exactly be fun, it'd help situations where vigor-killed minions aren't too powerful (baron, marionette) but still make the super powerful ones even more OP

[next marlin]

Well, you still can't nominate

"Not being able to nominate" sure is a pain in the ass for a minion sometimes

[indigo osprey]

Vigor is generally considered a very weak demon

[next marlin]

And you're instantly outed evil if you do it at any point other than "f3 when you can get enough votes to beat anything"

[indigo osprey]

It can use all the help it can get

[next marlin]

(outed evil outing the demon type, even)

[sly crescent]

ok, with that implementation this works 👍 just has to be precise in wording, so that the evil dead vote is spent when they first vote as a corpse

[dense hound]

Oh for sure, I just don't think this is it

[indigo osprey]

It felt thematic

[sly crescent]

Vigor's fine you just don't kill your minions but make people think you did

[indigo osprey]

In line with the vigor skillset

[next marlin]

"vigor is a weak demon" when the last remaining townsfolk in a pithag-spree game breaks madness in f5 and autoloses because the demon is DA protected in f3:

[dense hound]

Vigor psychopath is still the scariest thing ever

[next marlin]

[+1 townsfolk]

Having said that I definitely once had a game where evil stomped from that strategy so it can work

[dense hound]

The biggest problem with vigor to me is how it interacts super well with half the minions and is completely useless the other half, so I wish there was a way to help half of them and not the other

Maybe the minions can choose to keep their ability or the ability to vote/nom?

[sly crescent]

precisely, the threat is greater than execution - if people are looking for poisoned corpse neighbors they will "find" them and worldbuild around them

[next marlin]

...I kind of dig that this mechanically confirms marionette status to vigorkilled marionettes

n5: "hi, your demon just vigorkilled you, do you want to keep your ability or your voting powers?"
untold marionette: "sorry, what"

[indigo osprey]

Banshee as marionette has very mixed feelings when vigorkilled

[sly crescent]

pit-hagged into a good Marionette, then vigored

[indigo osprey]

Being the vigor with baron and marionette as minions

[next marlin]

Oh yeah that one's vicious

[dense hound]

It's just super hard to balance it because if you buff it for baron/marionette minions then pit hag/psychopath minions move the same goalposts usually

[next marlin]

Vigorkilled psycho is not as good as it sounds unless it's hidden psycho (in which case it's very good indeed)
If it's open psycho you just out the demon type, can't goad town into wasting like 5 executions on you, and don't get the dramatic tension of selfkilling in f3 rather than confirming someone as non-demon before the grim reveal

But yeah hidden psycho is very good indeed

[dense hound]

I just hate having to rock paper scissors for my life

[sour harness]

I think the reason is either something to do with lycanthrope or the possibility for multiple demons (like how sage works). Or both

(or I'm just wrong, idk)

[next marlin]

Yeah hence later tweak to "killed by an evil player's ability" re. lycan et al

Because as it stands King is difficult to fit on scripts with...minions

[sour harness]

make it closer to butler, choose a player and if they vote you must

Maybe that's less damaging but idc it makes the role actually interesting to play or bluff as

[fast anchor]

have you played or bluffed as the zealot before? even without the agency it's still pretty fun imo

[sour harness]

I mean it's not the end of the world but with my playstyle I'm just gonna be a zealot for at least a couple days in 95% of games, meaning I don't fully get to play in the nominations phase if it's on script

Whereas with juggler for example, that's a fun bluff and it doesn't retract from any ability

(the common thread is they both do stuff publicly, yes ik there are plenty more)

rework the whole character, or better yet, scrap it. Not learning teammates should be a constant check, and if the PG ever loses their ability they should just learn each other

Idk why it doesn't work like that

I can barely deal with magician when I'm evil, PG is straight up unfun for me, even as a good player in a PG game

(magician is fun tho)

I am the world's #1 poopy grower hater

[fast anchor]

I dislike PG but I'm confident TPI will find a way to make it fun when it actually gets published

[vale oxide]

Changing "die" to "might die" might be more interesting and potentially more detrimental?

Having the options of "good slightly" and "evil slightly" is just better imo

[flat lintel]

Or professor can only resurrect starting third night

[vale oxide]

can guess their ability when dead

[fiery finch]

[-1 demon]

[flat lintel]

Any change with amne can be written in the ability

[flat lintel]

What is this joke? Is it that vigor is bad?

[vale oxide]

I guess 😅

[dense hound]

I think it's still good to put it into the character so people can know to guess while dead

[fiery finch]

https://tenor.com/view/better-call-saul-chuck-charles-gif-26670840

[next marlin]

It's a bit from /r/clocktowercirclejerk that has been going around here lately
https://www.reddit.com/r/ClocktowerCircleJerk/comments/1c7a7ls/i_nerfed_some_more_character_because_theyre_all_op/

[dense hound]

acrobat should change to might die

[fiery finch]

the humble tinker:

[flat lintel]

How dare you suggest golem be more an actual Outsider?

[flat lintel]

General lets you decide what you want to do as long as it’s clear

[next marlin]

Golem being stupid powerful for an outsider is funny but at the very least "the Lleech host registers as the Demon to the Golem"
It'd still be a terrible script combo but it'd at least be less hilariously anticlimactic

(I superspecced/spectated-from-the-co-ST-seat a 15p d1 rerack from lleech-golem)

[flat lintel]

SNAKECHARMER IS HILARIOUS

[next marlin]

TC is also a banger

It's a sequel, btw
https://www.reddit.com/r/ClocktowerCircleJerk/comments/1c2l6we/i_nerfed_some_characters_because_theyre_op/

[lost thistle]

Vortox is changed from winning if nobody is executed, to winning if no alive player is executed

i really don’t like the “welp guess we’ll kill a dead body” meta that develops from this

[sour harness]

Acrobat should be changed to tinker

[lost thistle]

this is a bad meta anyways because you’re not killing evils by doing this but i still want to stop that

[sour harness]

Vortox wincon is mostly there to push the first day of execution, it's pretty much fine as is (though I wouldn't mind your version either)

[dense hound]

It's the only change I can think of that isn't just completely changing the character 🤷

[sour harness]

I appreciate acrobat for the sole purpose of making computers out of botc mechanics

[sour harness]

Just make it a townsfolk and throw it on bmr lol

[lost thistle]

makes snv a bit more panicky with “aaaaaa what if its a vortox we need to kill somebody”, even if mechanically it doesnt change the optimal play in 99% of cases

[sour harness]

Sailkeeper synergy goes crazy

[lost thistle]

only issue is that this now makes vortox play kinda badly with stuff like psychopath

oh or witch i guess

oh dear

okay yeah thats a problem hm

not sure if its that big of one though? since its easy to work around and makes a fun panic situation

“aaaaahh the player we were gonna execute died to a witch quick quick find somebody else!”

[lost thistle]

i think i like that

its a feature now

[foggy grotto]

Alejo SC but if they get sniped N1 they remain an unpoisoned SC. The new demon can either kill them or keep them alive if they want an “out” from the evil team

also less spicy but golem only kills TF

[lost thistle]

all minions (besides the marionette which would obviously be jinxed) also know who the lunatic is, instead of just the demon. additionally, they all learn who the lunatic thinks their minions are

[indigo osprey]

Yes, good one

[foggy grotto]

8/11 looks like a slow day so lets just be silly, come up with your best/worst BotC-themed pun right now

[lucid crag]

I assume Bot C is worse than Bot A and B?

[sour harness]

Only in a heretic world

[dense moat]

You know, I thought of one. But there Mayor may not be a better idea : )

[sly crescent]

i had one about Amnesiac, just can't seem to recall it

[lucid crag]

Have you heard the joke about the huntsman that saved the damsel?

no?

me neither.

[sly crescent]

Cannibal would love a Steward stew, but what about Assassin's ass?

[supple dirge]

I hate to be the baron of bad news, but evil wins

[warped fog]

don't be down, it was an impressive play by evil to get to this point

[dense hound]

Scarlet woman

SHIT this is hard

[sour harness]

I get the joke! Because women aren't real

[supple dirge]

Clocktower has many fantastical creature, pixies, goblins, women

[fast anchor]

didn’t we do this bit before?

[dense moat]

Axolator had betrayed out secrets! Slayer!

more puns : )

[peak adder]

Are you sure about that?

[sour harness]

LOL

for the record i am very much aware that women are real. in case that wasnt clear

[zenith lotus]

8/12: The NEW BALANCING TOOL.

Alch mez having an easy to say word 😉

[fiery finch]

change vortox ability to:
Vortox (demon): Each night* choose a player. They die. Good’s info is reversed. The 1st time each player names you: lose your ability (if they are good), regain it (if they are evil). Each day, if nobody is executed, evil wins.

I think it would be a good improvement

[sharp violet]

Amnesiacs should all have this ability on top of their current one: "Once per game, you may learn your ability, lose it, and gain a new ability."

[sour harness]

Nah it should be "your guesses cannot be affected by abilities, and you may make guesses when dead"

[heady cradle]

Paradox pls fix

[lucid crag]

hey there's no evidence that the Damsel is a woman

It could be a dude in heels

[sour harness]

It's implied but you're right there's no hard evidence

[lucid crag]

And by extension Harlot! /j

[sour harness]

True

Funnily enough, the harlot flavor text proves that the sailor is male

Unless it's talking about some other sailor

[lucid crag]

(though I do think there's masculine words for damsel and harlot so maybe not lol)

[sour harness]

If the sailor was female it'd be enchantée

(idk if french has anything for non binary people)

[lucid crag]

mime

/j

[fast anchor]

i assume it's a different sailor, because the harlot is not on bmr

[acoustic chasm]

Could Harlot have been on BMR at some point?

It does give another reason for death

And Harlot+protection can be gamesolving but also gives reason for evil to kill a harlot

[sour harness]

It's also... a traveller

The harlot can simply travel between games

[sour harness]

I think this is a good theory tho

Then they probably realized it was broken on bmr, smth like that

[foggy grotto]

like the other BMR travelers aren’t?

[sour harness]

Fair enough

[next marlin]

Everyone loves the uncontroversial and widely acclaimed BMR traveller of [checks smudged writing, which is blank]

[flat lintel]

8/13: Pick any BOTC game. Decide an A, B, C plot if that game was to air as a movie. Decide who gets screentime at what points.

[sour harness]

I think the A plot of the game I just played was the confirmation chain between me, 3 other good players, and the demon

B plot was the moonchild and innkeeper shenanigans to call out the gambler bluff

C plots were the fool claiming goon and the lunatic being the lunatic

Ofc this was just from my perspective

[fast anchor]

#the-day-the-music-died

aplot of typical speedy nights shenanigans, morgan the saint claiming golem to die at night, kyle the sw backing from a doubleclaim into a doubleclaim and proccing minstrel
bplot of quilava the gunslinger trying to convince hannah he was evil when there was no spy to help them know for sure

these two plots crash into each other when, during the minstrel day, ai the goblin goes on the block, then quilava gunslinger-shoots kisa the minstrel making AI sober and town frantically spending every ghost vote they could to get AI off the block

cplot of RD trying to recruit moth to "the third team", then getting marionetted by vix (and him believing it), the person he was pushing on for all of d1-d2

[flat lintel]

I have to do funny.

#1091016474501599302

a plot [from a viewer perspective]) Toges is the Lunatic in an Atheist game where the “evil team” is two good players who have to try and string the Good team and Toges to believing it’s an actual game whilst I try to fuck it up constantly.

Bplot) The good team and everything! Both outsiders and Becky being sus. No sentinel and everything. The good team plays a normal game. Amongst this are confirmations and Ferb shennigans.

C plot) happening while all of this goes on is the tasks! Yoo and Wrath (“evils”) have to recruit and do some random tasks and semi out Atheist to Izzy, recruit Night the confirmed PM to Night, all while trying to keep the charade up the whole time.

All 3 plots crash together right before the end when the good team executed Y00 the “DA” and everything starts to come crashing in the night where the final task is to get Toges, the Lleech Lunatic to out while the good team tries to find out who the fuck the host is. This leads to a final bombshell ending where it’s revealed it’s Atheist and everything that was barely stringing together is revealed to them all.

4 snakes?

A plot) I think the A plot is still the Demon situation. You have some very unlucky charms that out the Minions, and eventually out the Demon as who they are and thus lead to a very weird interesting ending.

B plot) Autumn. This is her first time playing I think SNV and she got cerenovus’d into the Snakecharmer who say 4 snakes (Juggler 4). I think she’s executed and also at the end of the game, she becomes the vote that decides the win for evil or good.

C plot) the people who solved the game. I would argue these people were pushing for the demon to be executed, but it’s so funnily overshadowed by literally everything else. It’s like the most absurd course of events which implodes on itself and these people are trying to collect every scoop of goop.

[flat lintel]

@fast anchor i think im right about this, but feel free to review?

like also autumn’s screentime in this game would be so high, on top of all of the other things going on

[fast anchor]

kat and you need more screen time in an act 3 Hail Mary to just play the social game on a solved board

[flat lintel]

any more game plots?

[sour harness]

In this last game I played the b plot was me, the tinker, going up to everyone and asking if they'd like to die (claiming lycanthrope). The A plot was that the demon was snake charmed n2 and immediately killed the philo sage who learned the new and old SC

The accusation on the demon was "DIBS!"

[fast anchor]

there arent enough textgamers in this thread to make a compelling plot for a game people can backread 😢

[next marlin]

[time is an illusion and just give whatever date applies in your local timezone]: What's your favourite set of Savant info you've given, received, or seen?

[ebon idol]

I’m a general lover of the “You are witch cursed” statement because I think it’s mainly funny

It’s a bit adjacent to savant/the question but I ran a NWC game where I had put a ton of effort into eavesdropper info and I am proud of how balanced the info was

It’s hard to recall specific information but my favorite info to get is statements that just… are so malleable with each other and fit the game state so perfectly, it feels like a full on puzzle that without being contrived

Savant info can fall into the trap of (especially in text) of losing the fun factor in favor of being purely mechanical.. which is hard to avoid at times tbh, savant info is hard as crap

[foggy grotto]

i once gave “it is impossible for good team to win today” as one and even though it literally just meant SW in play it felt very dramatic and i’m quite proud of it

[pseudo fulcrum]

it's mostly a joke so i haven't seen it in any games but i love the threatening Savant info

something like "You are mad that you are the Flowergirl or The Tinker dies tonight"

[karmic slate]

A Savant in a Leviathan game I was in got "The Flowergirl would have received a No all game" on their last day which was true and whilst we didn't use it to execute the Demon in hindsight it was really interesting

[fast anchor]

I've given "The maximum number of players that can die tonight is 4" in a game of Lunar Eclipse. It was false but framed ND + Godfather + Assassin + Mayor bounce off the Assassin, which was a viable world people were looking at

[sour harness]

THAT'S SO FUNNY

unfortunately a bad idea and technically not mechanically possible

[zenith lotus]

do it in a vortox game

[sour harness]

That... doesn't make it work

[zenith lotus]

actually that wouldnt work

never mind

[sour harness]

I just thought of some weird info: [early game] "it is mechanically possible for a mutant to ping a mathematician this game"

It means at least one of these is true:

1. mutant, mathematician, and philo or sweetheart in play (all s&h)
2. Pithag in play

[fast anchor]

I don't think "might" abilities can ever ping the math?

hmm, just checked the Edd ruling, it's a "yes but don't"

[sour harness]

That's part of why I said "mechanically possible"

[next marlin]

It's so tragic that math can only ping once per ability so you can't give a math 500 for a tinker sat next to a tea lady

[sour harness]

I have no intention of actually pinging a math this way

[next marlin]

the two types of STs

[sour harness]

Unless it's crucial to the solve but I feel like that won't be the case

[next marlin]

It could...differentiate real philo-mutant prevention from "evil bluffing philo-mutant so you don't kill the mutant to back up the bluff" prevention I guess

Very useful

[sour harness]

Yeah that's basically the one time it's crucial to the solve

[next marlin]

About as useful as real philo-mutant, which is "extremely funny that it ever is at all"

[sharp violet]

8/18: Best game you’ve played involving a Traveler?

[next marlin]

As an evil Barista in SnV, I had a game where I repeatedly doubled my Cerenovus, who rather than the all-too-common "uhh I guess no one was barista'd today lol" went in full swinging in "I'm the Mathematician, I have a guaranteed sober and healthy 0" multiple times
Demon type: No Dashii

Town figured out several days in, given "how many double claims we've had", that I was probably doubling the cere; I was miraculously able to get only five of six required votes during my first exile attempt, pointing repeatedly at the guaranteed sober math number as evidence I was helping good (and also the one time I sobered the poisoned flowergirl)

On f4, the last living good player declared that he was the Seamstress, had checked me against someone fairly confirmed, and gotten a no, so it was true all along that I was the evil barista doubling the cerenovus

He was immediately executed for breaking madness

[fast anchor]

…why break madness in f4???

[next marlin]

Great question but I sure was not complaining

[sly crescent]

dunno about best, but it was memorable 😔 got shot by a Gangster+Politician combo

[next marlin]

The first (and, I think, only) time someone other than myself has run one of my scripts it ended with the good gangster killing the demon in f3 after she slipped the noose

[dense moat]

8/18: When you play, what sort of things do you prefer to assume rather than confirm? And how well has it paid off in your experience?

[ebon idol]

May not be interpreting the question correctly, but people roles

You can usually fill your grim just based off of what people say and how they act and vote in townsquare

Even in experienced groups in my experience info sec is not super well done and as evil and good I have won games off of simply deducing where connections lie and what people I need to kill

[foggy grotto]

depends on how experienced they are, but when newer players vote on everything I assume they are good

like I played a game recently where there was a guaranteed evil between two people due to a double claim that neither would back off of, and the Saint claim who was relatively new to the game voted on both of them

[sour harness]

For a while I would usually not vote or nominate as a good player

[dense moat]

This is a valid interpretation. As you say you would assume what roles people are, rather than fully examine them

[dense hound]

I usually assume that the last people to walk off from town square are probably good, and it's rarely failed me (works better online though)

[sour harness]

In my first game here i was the SW in a poppy grower game

The PG used that logic and came to talk to me, so both of our first conversation was him outing PG to me

Long story short the demon died and I killed him, but eventually lost anyways

[dense hound]

Yeah poppygrower games are the rare time it fails me

[sly crescent]

ye anything about my evil team. i find it more fun if i have to figure out who it is or what they have and/or get surprised 😄 with the exception of Poisonering Leviathan N1 in a Magician game that's just too tempting and benefits the rest of the team too

[foggy grotto]

8/19 What’s the most “side quest”y character in your opinion? Huntsman is a big one for me but i’m curious what else people think

[sharp violet]

Amnesiac probably, every time I'm amne I'm more interested in figuring out my ability than the gamestate lol

[dense hound]

I mean it's gotta be amnesiac hasn't it

[sharp violet]

If Homebrew counts Archivist is also one I wanna try being

[sour harness]

are all up there

seeing is as well, from experience

[fast anchor]

come to mind

[young sonnet]

Bounty Hunter isn't quite a side quest character, but it definitely feels like a quest

High Priestess

Damsel is more like a minigame than a side quest

Puzzlemaster is definitely a side quest

Fearmonger for SURE

Mezepheles too

[fiery finch]

almost all of bad moon rising

[sour harness]

Yeah BH is 100% main quest

HP as well

[sour harness]

Ooh forgot about that but that's good

[sour harness]

Yep for sure

[copper quail]

Amnesiac, Savant, Puzzlemaster and Huntsman for sure

[pseudo fulcrum]

20/8: if you had to be good for the rest of your games or evil for the rest of your games, which would you choose?

[shrewd cloud]

Good for sure

[fast anchor]

Good

[shrewd cloud]

Little thing though, by good do you just mean a good character or straight up you can’t ever be evil? Since stuff like Goon, Politician, and a Mez word would allow you to still play for the evil team occasionally

[pseudo fulcrum]

I'd say good character because that doesn't break the game like saying a Mez word and not turning

[severe raven]

How about "Mezepheli just never give you their words first for some reason"?

[young sonnet]

Good because you can become evil through other means

[next marlin]

Evil
I draw good an incredibly disproportionate amount of the time, and a disproportionate number of the games where I have been evil have been instant reracks for mechanical reasons (after which I become good), and I read much worse as good/have a reverse marionette syndrome

(I'm naturally very suspicious of others and tend to read super cagey/nervous when I don't know my team)

I mean I'd never be able to play a PG or magi script, but I already don't

[sour harness]

Neither because that makes the game less fun for me lol

If people didn't know I could only be one and didn't catch onto it either, evil for sure

It's so fun

[dense hound]

evil and get gardened into vizier every game

[supple dirge]

I prefer evil, knowing most of what's going on, being able to direct misinfo, play a bit more wild with my bluffs

[sly crescent]

being in an obvious pattern would eventually become boring for everyone involved, but this. if in some magical way other players don't notice - evil, for practical reasons with others noticing - good.

[flat lintel]

Good, because I've been evil too much. I love being evil, but I need my occasional 1 good game to balance things out. (I roll evil too much 😂) Also I love solving. It's just fun.

[foggy grotto]

EVIL!!!

but id get sick of it

[flat lintel]

honestly, evil but if I get to be poppy growed a significant amount 👀 or like politican/goon

[cloud plover]

Good!

Evil is so stressful! I don't want to have a 33% stake in my team! I want to be a mook!

[ebon idol]

Evil

[flat lintel]

noted

[lucid crag]

good because outsiders are just too fun

[flat lintel]

u cant end the game as evil though for goon and poli

[lucid crag]

I've never been those roles and would play them good anyway

(if able)

actually been goon

(though it was in a goon chain game)

[flat lintel]

weren't u goon in oops all goon?

[lucid crag]

but things like damsel and klutz are just fun mini games

[ebon idol]

I like being so much half of my social time as good is joking I’m evil

[sharp violet]

I prefer being evil but if I were evil every game that wouldnt work

[flat lintel]

if ur good every game, night 1 death

if ur evil every game, day 1 exe

[sharp violet]

That was me during Werewolves

Being meta'd that when I dont instadie Im wolf

[dense hound]

yeah but getting banshee would feel so good

[flat lintel]

Yeah, but also getting FT would like suck?

Getting exorcist is funny bc u have to like

snipe the demon before you

[dense hound]

eh FT you still get one night of info

more if theres a monk on script

[flat lintel]

Flowergirl than

[copper quail]

Good
I have been once in my group evil 15 times in a row, never again please 🥲

[primal crescent]

21/8: Which Demons do you like to 1) play as, 2) be a Minion to, 3) play against, and 4) watch?

for me:

1. Al-had
2. Imp
3. Vortox
4. Legion

[sterile flame]

1. Pukka
2. Vig
3. Lil Monsta
4. Zombuul

[karmic slate]

1. Vigormortis/Imp
2. No Dashii
3. Leviathan
4. Al-Hadikhia

[fast anchor]

1. Kazali
2. Po
3. Riot, but Vigor if that doesn't count
4. Legion

[copper quail]

1. Imp
2. Po
3. Pukka or Vigor
4. Lleech or Legion

[sour harness]

1. (I've never been yagga but that seems fun too)
2. 
3. 
4. 

[fast anchor]

Yaggababble is scary as hell from when I played it

[lucid crag]

1 Imp
2 Kazali
3 Pukka
4 Vortox

prob would like playing fang gu too, idk

[foggy grotto]

1. Yaggababble
2. Imp/Kazali
3. Al-Hadikia
4. Riot

[karmic slate]

Why would Riot not count 😂

[fast anchor]

there are some outspoken members of the server who think Riot isn't Clocktower, and you can't be a Demon if you're not in the game

[flat lintel]

They are in the game...

[fiery finch]

there is no riot

[karmic slate]

have you ever seen them? 👀

[flat lintel]

riot being in play, yes!

played in a riot game

[karmic slate]

impossible. they're just rumours!

[flat lintel]

they're a paradox!

[sour harness]

If I hear one more comment about this demon I'm gonna riot

[fiery finch]

https://tenor.com/view/sopranos-sopranos-paulie-laughing-the-sopranos-tony-soprano-gif-23785315

[agile sigil]

1 Legion
2 Vigormortis
3 Leviathan
4 Fang Gu (from player perspective, from ST perspective: Yagga)

[fierce reef]

1 zombuul/imp
2 vigor
3 pukka
4 lil monsta

[young sonnet]

Low key I really enjoy watching Leviathan games on the Clocktower YouTube

Cause I feel like those players have a tendency to talk in town square less after they die, so Leviathan games are always such a blast cause everyone is trying equally hard to have their world understood

[dense hound]

1: Fang gu
2: Lil Monsta
3: No Dashii
4: Lil Monsta

[sharp violet]

1. 
2. 
3. 
4. 

[zenith lotus]

1. Shab
2. Legion/Riot
3. Pukka
4. Al Had

[agile sigil]

-> Be a minion to
-> Legion
Hmmmm

[zenith lotus]

same with riot 🙂

[ebon idol]

(with good ST’s)

[vale oxide]

1. 
2. 
3. 
4. 

[fast anchor]

22/8: hello blood gamers. i have a (physical) folder i must fill with clocktower custom scripts for my irl group. it can fit about 10 sets of 16 scripts so we’ve got choice here (though two are probably gonna be Uncertain Death and Trust because they’re classic and pretty beginner-friendly in case)

What would you be looking for in a set of custom scripts? What varieties of script / featured characters should be on them?

(yes this is a very self-indulgent question but you all are wisened and probably have good opinions)

[sharp violet]

This is my experience STing for groups with newbies transitioning into customs

Players will love scripts that feature a small amount of crazy characters, but not too much

I'd say 1 or 2 truly insane scripts, 1 more moderate but not crazy script, and the rest at light-moderate that emphasize 2-3 interesting characters

[karmic slate]

Assuming the scripts can range in skill level, I think trying to have a script that uses certain "script-focus" characters would be good. Such as just so the group gets a chance to experience those characters

[supple dirge]

Most of the scripts I have in my binder are custom scripts I've made over time that I've ran and liked. Scripts built around characters I like such as leviathan, plague doctor, al-had, ojo, summoner. As well as some well regarded custom scripts like extension cord and reptiles II. I like having a good variety of different characters and difficulties. A few easier scripts with just 1 demon, no madness or anything crazy. Most of the rest are moderate difficulty I'd probably run for a group that can handle SnV

[karmic slate]

But I think the biggest quality you should be looking for is reliability. I'd much prefer a tested and balanced set of scripts that doesn't necessarily explore every character over only a handful and the rest being unbalanced to highlight a character

[sour harness]

We should roll those all into one script and see what happens

[pliant grail]

I would suggest a decently even split between; "fun" scripts that that are more playful than anything else (such as, but doesn't have to be, midnight oasis). These scripts are great to play when people don't necessarily wwant to be putting their full efforts into solving.
balanced scripts that create a similar experience to base 3 in the way that everyone is buckled up and ready for a balanced game where everyone plays a part in solving (examples that come to mind are extension cord or trust)
and finally the in betweens, where you're playing with more extreme characters but you're playing relatively serious games of clocktower (i'd put legion, leviathan, lil monsta in this section and harold holt's revenge as an example)
finally, make sure to add sects and bewlets

[barren zenith]

What is this 'trust' script that seems to be coming up quite a bit?

[fast anchor]

The winner of the 2023 Clocktower Con Mayor Script Competition

[barren zenith]

Ok, thanks

[agile sigil]

Yeah. I feel like HHR needs to be in the folder if you have enough people, fun script + very game changing mechanics. My in person group does a lot of teensies and we probably overplayed LuF

[fast anchor]

Vizier's a fun one but I just can't think of an actual good script with one

[pliant grail]

be the script you want to see in the world

[fast anchor]

Not when the character’s been out long enough for someone smarter than me to do it

[ebon idol]

👁️ Pearly gates /hj

now with commissioned art for your lovely lamination needs

I think boozling is a good shout, maybe catfishing, they're very common and well known scripts but it's for a reason, they make for good games

I agree with paradox that reliability is the most important factor when it comes to irl groups, if your group is more experienced I'd adventure to have 2 or 3 scripts with advanced themes or characters

Otherwise I'd probably just stick to things like trust / uncertain death as you already have

[past kayak]

Hold up lemme me DM you my entire folder of custom sheets

[lucid crag]

in a set there's gotta be a madness script, a lotta madness, pixie mutant cere harpy. Oh and village idiot if you hate your friends /j

[heady cradle]

9/23: What characters would remain balanced if you added [+1 of That Character] to their ability?

[sour harness]

no i dont think so

mutant maybe? that's still powerful tho

drunk? lunatic?

[+1 yourself] is busted no matter the character type

[+0 or +1 yourself] can be fine though. or VI setup text

[next marlin]

+0 to +2 cerenovii, one of the extras is good

ez

oh you said "balanced"

[reef panther]

I mean, Amnesiac is the obvious answer

[dusky minnow]

+1 Magician would be funny

[reef panther]

+1 Huntsman is probably a lot but it's not that overpowered

in a bigger script

[minor pier]

[+1 Heretic]. Balance.

[indigo osprey]

snake charmer

[sharp violet]

[+1 Atheist]
[+1 Drunk]

[sour harness]

"one of the extras is good" is funny

[sour harness]

It would make the huntsman's ability actually help the good team overall 💀

[next marlin]

I think snv would be improved by having games with two evil Ceres and one good one

Great synergy with Mutant also getting a +1 clause

[dusky minnow]

Script where all characters have [+1 of their role] including the demon

[indigo osprey]

If the +1 is optional, then Pixie would be great

[sour harness]

"I'm the pixie pixie"

[heady cradle]

Only if the Pixie could gain the ability of the other pixie's double

[heady cradle]

Like, the Pixie Pixie should be able to get the Pixie's Bounty Hunter pings if they die in the right order

On an unrelated note — an evil Pixie Bounty Hunter in a Poppy Grower game would be a fun way for evil to learn each other

[fast anchor]

holy shit ur so real

ty bestie

[warped fog]

damsel?

like

there are zero characters this works with

[dense hound]

Snake charmer

[sour harness]

Damsel might be fine actually

Though, outsider count :(

It's also just a lot

[sour harness]

SC can just come out and bam 2 confirmed good

Which is often better than what you get if you try to snake charm people

[dense hound]

Can you rephrase what you mean by out

[sour harness]

they come out and their gay lovers,,,,,

Jk they just claim SC

[dense hound]

I mean if you wanna turn the snake charmer into a steward you could do that sure

[sour harness]

It's stronger than a steward bc it's 2 way

[dense hound]

Until a baron claims it and you gotta execute all 3

or one doesn't wanna out and wants to become evil

etc etc

[sour harness]

Imagine if pixie saw philo and the philo who went pixie n2 saw pixie

[dense hound]

I don't see that big of a problem

like that could also be a minion and demon bluffing it

[sour harness]

That's true

[fast anchor]

[young sonnet]

It works incredibly well with huntsman

And VI

[sharp violet]

What about Drunk? or Atheist?

[sour harness]

Atheist is fine

Though it means it's harder to bluff

Which... :(

[ebon idol]

I think drunk gets less balanced tbh

[supple dirge]

Drunk people are usually bad at balance

[foggy grotto]

genuinely, [+1 Math] so they can detect if the other math got droisoned

[sly crescent]

Mathematician i believe is already high rate of confirmed good/evil from supposedly learned numbers making sense or not. having a free dual washerwoman confirmation on top would be broken

Atheist [+1 Atheist] makes sense and remains balanced because wouldn't change much just 2 evil players can/have to bluff the same thing to make use of the lose con. it's just not a great idea to limit what setups can be achieved for one less free token to make the storyline in an atheist game

i guess it makes it way harder to put a mario/Drunk(Atheist) in play, not sure that's a bad thing

[sly crescent]

forgor about 1 minion games; once u execute 2 atheists the chance of them being real goes too high, that's not balanced

so probably nothing that's a good-favored townsfolk works with exactly +1

[dense hound]

this is where you do steward and just give them each other as pings

That or maybe cult leader since sure you know their role but you dont know the alignment

[sly crescent]

ye that's a trick to get it working maybe. i was also thinking Seamstress as it's limited in what it can do and often is double claimed

🧠 2 Politicians. only one can win though

[dense hound]

Thats funny

[next marlin]

This is just philo-poli

[karmic slate]

I'd be intrigued in seeing some of your favourites 👀 I'm slowly growing my own folder of customs I at least trust atm too

[zenith lotus]

8/24: Have you ever seen someone hold a OPG to the final day/night and what happened?

[fast anchor]

I’ve told a Fisherman to execute the Demon player on final 4… after they themselves had already been put on the block

[sour harness]

Check the last video on the botc yt channel lol

TB(ish) player perspective

[zenith lotus]

oh i havent watched that one yet lol

[copper quail]

Saw a slayer shooting on the last day... on the recluse who died giving the win to evils 🫣

[sour harness]

Bruhhh the slayer held it until the final day and got punished for it???

That's supposed to be a win in every case if the slayer is trusted

[hot orchid]

Outsider ability hurts town...

[fast anchor]

the recluse is an outsider 👁️

[fiery finch]

No it’s a minion

[heady cradle]

yes, but final day slayer shot? I think it's less fun for good to lose the game thusly

[sterile flame]

Balloonist imo

especially new balloonist

[zenith lotus]

They shouldve shot the person not claiming recluse

i would always kill the recluse there

now, if its a double claim of recluse, i might let it slide, because it might have been impossible to tell which one was the recluse

[heady cradle]

but like

the ST has the job of punishing game mistakes

[zenith lotus]

but town really shouldve exed into the double claim

[zenith lotus]

exactly

[next marlin]

Singlehandedly losing on a townsfolk ability is not super fun; the fact the Slayer is the one triggering it, not the Recluse, is my problem with "kill the recluse lol" that I don't have with e.g. executing ceremad-as-outsider mutants in f3

(executing ceremad-as-outsider mutants in f3 you should do every time)

[heady cradle]

but!

ST has the more important job of making the game fun for everyone

and that's an extremely anticlimactic end

[next marlin]

If I won as evil from an f3 recluse slayer shot I wouldn't feel proud of the win

[zenith lotus]

i do feel the need to punish bad gameplay tho

[next marlin]

(whereas I will intentionally go for a mutant win)

[zenith lotus]

the slayer has two options, one of which will win the game outright, and one of which might end in a loss. If they dont choose the win, im going to punish them for it

[next marlin]

That is...certainly a way to think about things

[zenith lotus]

its like breaking madness in f3

if youre going to intentionally break madness

[fast anchor]

shooting the recluse isn't the same thing though

[zenith lotus]

when you know it will lose you the game

[fast anchor]

the Demon can bluff recluse

[next marlin]

Game-losing madness breaks should from my pov always be game-losing, but they're specifically evil (or at least outsider) abilities causing that, whereas slayer-recluse losses are primarily loading on a townsfolk ability

[zenith lotus]

thats what this is

[next marlin]

(also, uncertainty about whether a potentially game-losing madness break will actually lose is significantly worse than certainty, because it's super super antifun to be cerelocked the whole game and never be able to get it off your chest and later learn "oh you could've just broken it lol", whereas if you know a break will lose and you've already lost you can at least go for the catharsis)

[sly crescent]

not really, i've seen the plan many times like holding Seamstress check for last minute in a Leviathan game or holding Assassin kill for late game surge in deaths, but players generally get scared of not fulfilling their potential.

reminds me of the ultimate side-quest i thought of once: win the game as an alive unspent starting Philosopher in f3 (in a regular multi-day game)

[sterile flame]

yes, an alive puzzlemaster

[sly crescent]

forgot about PM that certainly is one of the natural hold for late abilities

[sharp violet]

Virgin held their ability to final 3

It was like every single day, another player was being way more sus so nobody ever bothered nominating the Virgin

They won off a mayor win

[sour harness]

Pfff

[flat lintel]

8/25: What is a real life skill you possess that helps you in BOTC?

[next marlin]

Very strong memory for details/placements of things relative to each other/"you saw this image for 0.2 seconds, please repeat what it is"
Kazali-pick me as grim peekers

[sour harness]

Speaking loud lol

[fast anchor]

i think i'm pretty good at solving as good?

[foggy grotto]

lying

[flat lintel]

Thats not a real life skill

[fast anchor]

i feel like analytical thinking is pretty useful in real life

[flat lintel]

I would argue being “good” is a game mechanic and thus not a real life skill

[fast anchor]

fair enough

hmmm

[fierce reef]

after i’ve started playing botc i’ve gotten a lot better at lying- almost to the point where it’s concerningly easy to come up with a convincing lie 😆

[sharp violet]

what do you mean, concerning? There's nothing concerning about that! /s

[vale oxide]

I'm really good at lying in real life but that does not transfer to clocktower 😅

[pseudo fulcrum]

Ever since I've started playing clocktower I've gotten much better at murder ||(for legal reasons this is a joke)||

[sly crescent]

reading comprehension

[fervent canopy]

Theatricality

[flat lintel]

How

[flat lintel]

😠 my eyes

[indigo osprey]

Lying is second nature

[supple dirge]

I'm not sure its a skill but I've been told I have a very neutral face that makes me hard to read if I'm lying or not

[sly crescent]

i'd say ye "poker face" is a skill and some people have a knack for it

[flat lintel]

ya nah, I would suck at IRL

I would be giggling all the time

[sharp violet]

Ability to speak up / dominate a space when necessary

[minor pier]

8/26 ; Is the Virgin an incel ? Is Kazali the most dateable Demon ? What kind of bed does the Scarlet Woman prefer to sleep in ? Why does the Farmer's strawhat have to be picked up by the next alive Good ? Share the weirdest character headcanon you can't help but think about !

[indigo osprey]

Lil’ Monsta is Stewie Griffin

[supple dirge]

The town always needs a farmer, if the current one dies someone has to quit job and farm otherwise we all starve. I like that flavor

[sour harness]

• no
• no
• lots of them
• evil people wouldn't be nice like that and dead people can't generally do that
• goblin is smiling because its name is a deez nuts joke

[sour harness]

What about when farmer is a bluff lol

[supple dirge]

Other headcannon, fortune teller has a red herring because the fortune teller only gets true mystical info half the time, and just guessing the other half

[sour harness]

Ooh I like that

[dense hound]

Snitch is Gossips little sibling who doesnt quite get it

[sour harness]

Yagga is their parent and mez is that cool older cousin who somehow has his life together

[dense hound]

Nice we got a family with each person as a unique character type

[sour harness]

Unfortunately snitch doesn't actually yap

[sly crescent]

Mathematician is actually just a numerologist but they usurp the profession name because no one calls them out on it

[acoustic chasm]

Oh I remember one

For BMR, not exactly a character headcannon

Though

But most of the Townsfolk in BMR seem like characters you'd find in the turn of the century, except for professor

While the evil team really feel like 20s mafia types going against the prohibition

So

The theory is that the evil team has gone back in time with the help of the professor to steal alcohol from before it was banned from the good team

And rule with general mafia-y stuff

Then they backstabbed the professor making them turn to the good team

The professor uses time travel to revive people

The lunatic thinks they are a time traveller too so the evil team takes advantage of that

[sour harness]

I like that lol

[fervent canopy]

that's amazing

[sly crescent]

i kinda have to "um actually" that and say professor as a word/title seems to date back to 1400 or so

[sour harness]

With the image though?

That didn't come up until 1911

[sly crescent]

going by image 🙃 ok then i guess it has to be 20th+ century scientist and everyone else is arguably almost medieval

[next marlin]

[time isn't real]: You're playing Sects & Violets and draw a minion token. What minion are you hoping for? What demon are you hoping to have, what do you want to bluff, what's your strategy, and how does it vary by player count (e.g. how many co-minions you have)?

[severe raven]

[REDACTED] so I can [REDACTED].

[sour harness]

I AM THE PITHAG BLUFFING SAVANT 🗣️🗣️🗣️

Gonna use my own night actions in my savant info

[next marlin]

that's a triple claim
t. cerenovus

[sour harness]

I'm happy to double claim a ceremad player

My savant info is fire anyway

Cerenovus is also fun

Honestly

All the minions are fun

Can't wait to be the evil twin savant

[next marlin]

Witch is mid

[sour harness]

Can you tell I like bluffing savant

[next marlin]

I want

1. cere
2. if it's a vigor game, to bluff dreamer
3. if it's not, to bluff probably savant

[sour harness]

It's simple but if you can get your social reads right it goes crazy

Ooh I wanna be a vigorkilled cere or witch bluffing sweetheart

Or, vigorkilled pithag bluffing barber (I turned the dead clockmaker into my demon's opg bluff last night)

[next marlin]

I love arbitrarily accusing people of being drunk but vigorkilled sweetheart bluff is one I'm less sold on because then someone is poisoned because of me and they'll at best 'solve the sweetheart drunk', it's no "tb librarian with drunk pings"

I bet the oracle with a 1 is the sweetheart drunk though guys, that makes sense

[sour harness]

Exactly

[next marlin]

If I can't get dreamer or savant I want juggler who got a 1 on five people as the pithag

[sour harness]

Ooh fun

Honestly just do it for whichever minion token you pull

[fast anchor]

Cere bluffing Mutant bluffing Savant

[next marlin]

I play cerenovus as "ideally, town never solves that there's a cerenovus"

[fast anchor]

if it's base 0 madden myself d1, break, frame a fang gu game, and pray my Pit-Hag doesn't actually turn the Demon into a Fang Gu WHY DID YOU DO THAT

[sour harness]

It really depends how the first day goes for me. Either I cerelock them like that, or I play loud and proud and try to get as many executions as possible

[sour harness]

nooooo

[sour harness]

Of course that doesn't work when my ST refuses to execute them for madness breaks

[fast anchor]

I firmly believe cerelocking someone is a suboptimal way to play cerenovus

because you could be cerelocking, like, the mathematician

[sour harness]

Honestly

Play it like a psychopath

[fast anchor]

find information you want to suppress, and madden that instead

get kills

[sour harness]

Keep it hidden as long as it's useful to

Then go crazy

[fast anchor]

madden your demon D1 to make them look good

madden a good player D1, and then out evil to make them seem like your Demon

[sour harness]

That too

Madden another minion and hope they're ET

[next marlin]

If I'm cerelocking something like the klutz that's great, they don't have real info so can't pull the "uhh my savant info is that a minion nominated yesterday" and have to bullshit everything from scratch

[sour harness]

Then the d1 good twin witch kill is gonna be that much better

[next marlin]

The only serious failure mode is when you accidentally lock the mutant so they just have a bluff all game

[sour harness]

I love cerelocking a mutant when they die

It's so funny

[fast anchor]

cerelock someone dead as the mutant

[sour harness]

"your info made no sense, are you the mutant"
"Nah dude I'm just the oracle"

[sour harness]

OOOOOOH THAT'S GOOD

[next marlin]

Locking dead players as the mutant is snv's equivalent of poisonkilling people

It's great

[sour harness]

Yeah more or less

I need to play more SnV lol

[next marlin]

and solves the missing outsider problem if none of you want to bluff outsider in vigor

[fast anchor]

this doesn't work great if they break beforehand saying "I am the mutant"

[sour harness]

People are too addicted to customs

[fast anchor]

you've played enough s&v in your lifetime go play bmr as God intended

this server's live community is addicted to S&V i think

[sour harness]

This is why I think night executions should restart the night

[sour harness]

BMR is great too don't get me wrong

In the polls I exclusively vote both SnV and BMR

[next marlin]

Also, if it's specifically 10p I really want it to be vigor, and approximately any other player count fang gu, but I've never actually been evil in vortox and I kind of love the idea of selling non-vortox in 7-9p

A horrific idea that keeps playing in my head is to make someone mad as the savant in a 1 minion game and claim at start of d1 "I'm the savant, [mad player] is my evil twin"

Then just hold on for dear life

[primal crescent]

Cerenovus, Vigormortis, bluffing Mutant

and then you coordinate madness w the demon kills

oh you have a sage?

oh hahahahaha

…

what sage

[sour harness]

Tell me how it goes lol

[sour harness]

Also, make the klutz mad as the sage

[next marlin]

Make every kill mad as the sage for four consecutive nights so when your demon kills the actual sage no one believes them

[sour harness]

Lol yes

"ok so we have 3 sage pings already and they include all the alive players, this fourth one doesn't really have much else going for it and all the others claimed ceremadness afterward. hmmmmm"

[sharp violet]

Evil Twin at base 2 Outsiders or Pit-Hag at Base 0/1, Fang Gu, Oracle Bluff

Don't have a set strategy, just be flexible and hope using best winrate characters win

I might take Evil Twin Vortox over Fang Gu at 7

[primal crescent]

wait so

if you make the klutz mad

that they aren’t the klutz…

[foggy grotto]

yeah if they get witch cursed thats a madness break

[sour harness]

There are ways to pass it off as not a madness break but you gotta sell it HARD

Say you've been claiming klutz: "I claim klutz and choose uhhhh Luis... Wait, there's no point keeping the bluff anymore, I'm the sage actually"

If they stuck to that with pings and everything I wouldn't execute

[next marlin]

(then you end the game after they out the pings)

[sharp violet]

Cerenovus with a No Dashii or Vortox, make different people mad as different things each day to try to create double-claims and/or temporarily stifle pertinent info, bluffing whatever bluff the Demon wants to give me but ideally something like Seamstress, the fewer players the better, if I get found out early then don't talk to my Demon so as to not implicate them

[foggy grotto]

witch with an evil twin, curse them D1 😍

did this once before it was amazing

demon doesnt really matter

[copper quail]

Evil Twin with a Savant good twin or Pit Hag to turn my fellow minion in Philo to drunk someone just because it is funny 🙈
Hoping to have anything but Vigor 🥹? I would bluff Savant but because I bluffed it too much, Mathematician is also a good one
I don't really have a detailled strategy just really depends on the game and who is evil with me

[fast anchor]

leelou is evil if she is claiming savant 🥳

[zenith lotus]

8/31: What's the furthest you've ever gone for a bluff as a good player?

[flat lintel]

I feel like this is made for me.

How far will I go for a bluff? Very far.

I think I just didn’t out anything one game to avoid being killed as the (drunk) Slayer

I’ve gone very far on bluffs

I think people who play with me are sort of accustomed to last minute oh Im this, which I do as good

Funniest I think was being the Marionette and trying to be the Golem in Ikenbai

[sour harness]

I pulled FT, private chatted nearly everyone and got their claims, and I claimed a different thing to each person. If I didn't die early i was gonna claim lleech to someone on d3ish

I told everyone "oh I'm claiming FT to throw the evil team off but I'm really the _____"

[sly crescent]

full 5 day slow text game of deliberately double claiming Savant probably

wait that was evil 🥲

i do go full method when mad or Mutant, i think it was hard for others to know when i was a Mutant a few times when i didn't try to hint

[fast anchor]

Played Mutant bingo as the Amne in HHR while the Mutant bluffed Amne. Didn’t push on em, they knew, I knew, it was all good

I claimed Amne to like 1 person that game

[supple dirge]

I was mutant in catfishing. Ended up bluffing gambler then Snake Charmer all game. Made fake snake Charmer info to implicate who I thought was the demon. Final 3 I was the last good player alive and had to think a bit which one I thought the demon was and therefore what my fake info was. Managed to get the demon on the block to win. Was a huge relief after being mad all game. Man I love madness.

[vale oxide]

Nothing crazy but I was the Snake charmer in a Catfishing game only claiming Amne for 3 or 4 days, I made up an ability which I eventually "got a bingo on". I was pretty sure most people trusted the bluff so I was really hoping to hit the demon, but then the GF killed the Fang gu jumped outsider which ended the game. Turns out Amne was a demon bluff so I wouldn't have stood a chance if I became the demon 😅

[primal crescent]

1/9 (that’s the right way, piss off): What combos do you usually see on scripts but you don’t think work well?

[next marlin]

There are a few famous examples (e.g. Sailor/Lleech), but a big one is Fang Gu/Drunk

Arbitrarily becoming the demon as a townsfolk sure is an interaction

(Pithag shenanigans make this some degree of a thing even in SnV, but fg-drunk is even moreso)

...so, of course, Drunk is on the significant majority of Fang Gu scripts

Also, Vigormortis/Preacher sucks, town not having counterplay to vigor-killed minions is the whole point and something evil sacrifices a lot for

A preached dead minion is just a huge problem for evil

[indigo osprey]

Fang gu and drunk are amazing

[indigo osprey]

I don't think there is a lot to answer, because all of these typical mistakes get corrected in feedback

[next marlin]

It's funny on some scripts but it's also something that can really suck if you're blindsided by it, especially if you're already having a weird game, which is not unlikely as the drunk

[indigo osprey]

Well: the reason why I like it, is because a drunk can basically be a marionette: you give them info that will either harm the goodteam (which it shoud as an outsider) or ... help their new allegiance (which as a demon is perfectly fine)

[fiery finch]

I feel like atheist/legion was weirdly common for a bit

[sour harness]

is the first thing that comes to mind

[sour harness]

Also, this is less of a script interaction than it is a lack thereof, but mutant is so often misplaced

It works on snv. It works on luf. Unless the conditions are similar to one of those, it's probably just gonna get itself executed d1 (or be a ticking time bomb in a way that's not fun for either team)

is another big one. I just don't find it fun at all

Marionette is probably my favorite character and ND ruins it

There's always but I think people are more aware of that interaction now

[foggy grotto]

not having a safe way of disposing of outsiders can be not super fun or fair for town, not as bad as some of the others mentioned

I sometimes see and its kinda unfun 90% of the time

[flat lintel]

too many scripts with these three

[foggy grotto]

so catfishing

wait whats so bad about them

i like them as they make there be a reason to doubt dead players

[flat lintel]

it's too much sometimes

like i want to play a new experience every game

but i find it hard when the demons are the same thing for several scripts?

[foggy grotto]

i mean

ok ig

your opinion

[flat lintel]

jan 9th???

[foggy grotto]

also last one is something i see on way too many scripts and its so bad

[zenith lotus]

its a European thing

day before month

honestly, its not so much that day before month is a European thing, its that month before day is an American thing

[flat lintel]

ik im trolling luis)

[zenith lotus]

dangit

[dense moat]

Also Americans are too good to use the metric system

Even though using base 10s realistically is more efficient

[foggy grotto]

5280 FEET IN A MILE 🍔 🦅

[dense moat]

32 degrees Fahrenheit

And all the rest

[next marlin]

I love these demons and the set of them, but Imp and Vigor are often weird together because they want opposite minions

Imp is good with frontloaded minions whose abilities don't really matter by the mid to late game, Vigor is good with minions who scale as the game goes on

There are minions that are okay with both, something like a Widow/Witch/Godfather bag is 'fine' with either

But the custom script Imp/Vigor/FG triad tends to mean one of them has slightly narrower options

[dense moat]

Even Baron can work with Vigor. It’s still a free poison, it adds tons of Outsider ambiguity with base 0 and it’s not like the Baron needs to be alive

We don’t talk about Vigor Scarlet

[next marlin]

Are you actually going to kill the baron to remove an evil voter+nominator without forcing town to waste an execution, though

[dense moat]

Still plenty of worse things with Vigor

ET, Scarlet, Mario

[flat lintel]

et so vaguely works

[next marlin]

Vigor/twin is a good script pair

[flat lintel]

but its not good

[zenith lotus]

just let vigor become a no dashii

😉

[next marlin]

Actual bag pair...it'd better be 3 minions with the other two working

[dense moat]

If Vigor kills a twin, you ignore the twin pair

[next marlin]

Or have pukka on script lol

[flat lintel]

i would say if you think baron is fine, mario should be too?

[zenith lotus]

i think vigor twin would work best if you have pit-hag/barber on script

[flat lintel]

baron -> adds outsiders, semi-confirms outsiders
mario -> gets good socials, free bluff

[zenith lotus]

cause then you cant ENTIRELY ignore the twin pair

[dense moat]

Mario is also good for letting them run around with fake info then vote with you.

Baron has done a lot of it’s job so it’s not as necessary to shoot them in day phase

Even though shooting them is a really good tactic

And also, Baron Vigor means you can have many different Outsider counts. -1 to +2

[hollow oasis]

1. Legion/Leviathan
2. Vortox
3. Vortox
4. (Atheist)/Legion

[flat lintel]

how?

Base 2 + Baron 2 - Vigor 1 = 3

[supple dirge]

I assume with baron vigor on the script with other demons, you could have -1, 0, +1, +2

[next marlin]

Also yeah, I think mutant specifically needs a script's positive outsider mod to be either solo Fang Gu or Fang Gu/Godfather

(I like Fang Gu/Godfather but I certainly understand why Kenoboi and many others put it as a bad combo)

As well as the usual "cere or leviathan or both" thing

[next marlin]

The thing is that having done a lot of your job already is precisely in the "works with Imp, doesn't work with Vigor" problem-cluster that makes them sometimes awkward scriptmates

Vigor-killing is a sacrifice that's notable enough that I see way too many vigors just decide to play "vanilla demon, +1 townsfolk" (and lose)

So one can't scriptbuild around the assumption it's fine to build vigor/baron/marionette type bags because "it's worth poisoning people", because removing an evil voter solely for a poison that probably hits a ysk or something at that point isn't worth it

[sour harness]

is fun if the mario thinks they're a bait role, works best but is great too

as well but only if you're confident that's what they saw

[next marlin]

Rather, what's worth it is stuff like making an immortal DA or cere that town has absolutely no counterplay to

[fast anchor]

fang gu + godfather

it CAN work but it's super SUPER punishing for good

[sour harness]

Gf-1 base 0 outsiders ez

[next marlin]

also, they are not aware of it

(https://botc-scripts.azurewebsites.net/statistics/yaggababble)

I love several things about the botc-scripts statistics, another one of which is that Legion is the single most common demon on Atheist scripts

[supple dirge]

Oh wow I didn't know you could get statistics with a specific character

[next marlin]

Yeah it's great

Poisoner is the single most common minion on Balloonist scripts btw

Sailor is the single most common townsfolk on Lleech scripts

Lleech is the most common demon on Golem scripts

[sour harness]

Oh shoot lol

Inkeeper is bad too??? What are they doing

[next marlin]

and if you're thinking "well, maybe legion/atheist is sometimes okay, it's legion/atheist/drunk/lunatic that's indefensible", well...

[sour harness]

I mean with newloonist that's not terrible

[next marlin]

It was the most common before newloonist

[sour harness]

But I feel like it's mostly oldloonist

[next marlin]

But yeah if you ever think received wisdom in places like #custom-script-discussion is representative of customs as a whole, botc-scripts stats are a great way of disabusing one of this notion

[sour harness]

Tbf that's not all scripts

But yeah ok

[sharp violet]

Poppy Grower Legion - not bad in a vacuum but miserably overdone

I'm tired of this character being in play in 90% of Legion games and removing the core gameplay appeal of Legion

[sly crescent]

to a lesser degree Poppy Grower + Lunatic. it's the obvious thing and it's fine, but it isn't making the game fun or anything just hides the Lunatic a bit longer

[warped fog]

LoT/Drunk

[next marlin]

Related hot take: Drunk does not in fact arbitrarily fit on all scripts

(per prior fang gu thoughts)

[spiral pollen]

Chef LoT

Get it gone

[indigo osprey]

This hot take is clearly wrong due to the nature of drunk

It might not be interesting or fun (which is fair) but there isn't a single script where drunk doesn't work as an outsider. E.G. Drunk and puzzledrunk together is probably not very fun. (Same as puzzledrunk and village idiot or puzzledrunk and widow or no dashii).

[sly crescent]

depends how you view "it works". it is always doing harm to the good team (even if it's not in play, by obfuscating stuff), but it can be too strong for the script, even more so if there are extra circumstances (like being added during Kazali/cow part of the setup)

but you can say it works, just like Politician "works" on any script too

[lucid crag]

I claimed evil bone collector as good and begged the cere to stop cerelocking me as sweet/klutz/mutant

[lucid crag]

pixie and cere is toxic, though pixie and mutant is great just mutant kind of requires cere

[vale oxide]

I don't see why pixie/cere would be bad

[barren zenith]

It's not that bad, but the cerenovus can make the pixie mad as something and force them to break pixie madness

[zenith lotus]

why is specifically cere pixie bad but not cere mutant then?

[barren zenith]

ND + baron is usually a bad idea, that is quite common but it overwhelms the good team, leaving them with a lack of info

[barren zenith]

The mutant is an outsider so it's fine imo, but I don't think cerenovus + pixie is that bad

The pixie still has the confirmation of the good player backed up by being executed for breaking cere-madness

[indigo osprey]

Cerenovus + pixie is just: well done cerenovus

[sly crescent]

in some situations; you can't reliably get executed from breaking cere madness and it isn't a free thing if you need to execute multiple evils to win.

biggest problem with Cere+Pixie is it has the Poisoner+old Balloonist vibe, but i think it's not devastating - it's fine

[barren zenith]

If you're in late game with pixie, to the point where you have to execute multiple evils, then the player the pixie is mad about being has already gotten enough info

And if you don't get executed for breaking cere-madness, that's a good thing as you still have your pixie madness maintained

[lucid crag]

yeah but that's late game, what about early game

like n1

[sly crescent]

that's where Pixie can usually maintain pixie madness and at worst get "confirmed" by getting cere executed

[lucid crag]

ceremad as pixie n1 is feelsbad

[sly crescent]

it's one that feels bad but we can find a silver lining in every situaiton

[barren zenith]

Then break it and try to get 2 confrimed good players

[minor pier]

To me, Pixie getting Cere'd isn't much worse than a Grandma dying with their grandchild. It's the downside of the very powerful ability, and it still got something quite good out of it, it's not like a Balloonist dying N2, or a N1 info role getting Poisoner sniped on TB. Plus, if the Cere moves, madness may get reinstated depending on the ST and the effort the Pixie makes.

[vale oxide]

I often see Amne/Vortox and I don't like that interaction RAW

[acoustic chasm]

Disagree

Well actually it depends

It mainly depends on how the ST runs madness

I would personally run pixie madness as something you can lose but also something you can regain

Depending on how the pixie plays it

[sharp violet]

I do view Pixie madness as temporal as well

[lucid crag]

if regainable then it's not bad

[sharp violet]

Let's say a Pixie Monk outs ceremad then claims Monk and plays like a Monk would, fine with granting them ability

[acoustic chasm]

Regainable madness is whats said on the madness design document

[sour harness]

Cere pixie is bad for more than the fact that cere can theoretically shut down the ability

[acoustic chasm]

1 thing about azure scripts is that it includes old scripts

From the characters release

[sour harness]

Claiming pixie on d1 is simply not very realistic, and madness needs to be realistic to work

[acoustic chasm]

You're saying cere making people mad as pixie?

[sour harness]

Also I wanna revisit this (ik multiple people said this but this was the message I saw)

[acoustic chasm]

Idk

I've seen people out as pixie early

I can see that happening

[sour harness]

This is literally part of the SnV dynamic??? And to a greater degree than godfather?????

[acoustic chasm]

Granted it was on wackamole

[sour harness]

The outsiders do something damaging when they die, so it's very punishing for good to execute outsiders

[acoustic chasm]

But I think it can definitely be believable

[sour harness]

And there's intentionally no good way to deal with them

Godfather just makes it so the downside to executing doesn't have to come from the outsiders themselves

If you combined with on-death outsiders, sure I can see why that's too much

But you can also just put em with normal outsiders

And get a similar effect to what's native to SnV

[indigo osprey]

Pixie dying to a cerenovus madness is still a washerwoman confirmation

Like: let's not pretend this is bad in any way shape or form

[acoustic chasm]

Yea

And I think cere making people mad as pixie isn't bad

[sour harness]

??? It's fine if someone has a different opinion from you

I think it's perfectly fine late game

[acoustic chasm]

It is fine!

[sour harness]

Or for a dead player

[acoustic chasm]

It's like cere making people mad as mutant d1

Isn't believable

If they're alive

[indigo osprey]

I have never adhered to mutantmadness every

I haven't been a mutant a lot

so yeah: making me mad as mutant is totally believable

[acoustic chasm]

Pixie imo is a better version of that situation

I think though another thing with fang gu GF is that double outsider manipulation characters gets messy

[fast anchor]

But it’s not shutting down the ability

That’s the thing

You don’t get the extra ability but you’re still building a confirmation chain

And the Pixie can pretty easily walk back their ceremadness if they move to a different player

[fast anchor]

Yes to an extent it’s similar, but you can straight-up lose the game by doing everything right because you’re in a FG and GF+1 game and executed the wrong outsiders too early

[sour harness]

you know what i mean

[fast anchor]

It’s extremely punishing for good, more so than even outsiders like Barber/SH/Klutz

[sour harness]

...you can straight up lose the game by executing a klutz? what's your point

[fast anchor]

My point is that good has no counterplay

You can trace a SH drunk and can socially read who looks barberswapped to an extent

And klutz often has socially good players to pick

You just can’t play around a Godfather kill the same way when you know one of the Outsider claims is the Demon

Unless you have a super strong town it can often be too much

I’m not saying it never works - Catfishing (more so) and Star Pass All Stars (less so) are FG + GF scripts with busted towns that can usually deal with it fine

But there are too many scripts where town can just lose while doing everything right post-jump

[acoustic chasm]

I agree with axolator

1 death is more punishing than most outsiders

[acoustic chasm]

Yes Klutz can lose the game, but the Klutz losing the game requires them to make a mistake

Vs games where you have a GF+1 Fang Gu and there may be no way to distinguish outsiders

[next marlin]

Pixies out d1 all the time, it's much easier than stuff like ceremad as mutant where that does get weird, but I think I've seen almost as many pixies d1 out than not, particularly in smaller games or when the pixie choice is kinda weird

Just claim you saw something you don't want to jump through the hoops for

"I got pixie snake charmer, I'm not doing goddamn pixie snake charmer"

[sour harness]

I think having no way to distinguish the outsiders is the problem, not the gf

[next marlin]

And also yeah re. fg/gf I agree "that's a feature not a bug" re. outsider killing being painful

I think fang gu on a script where killing outsiders isn't a huge problem for town is the questionable dynamic

it should be even more punishing than it is in snv tbh

[sour harness]

Idk I think it's fine

Particularly because it's so bluffable

[fast anchor]

When your inforoles are dying two a night, yeah, no shit you run out of ways

[indigo osprey]

I have never had a pixie out on D1

[zenith lotus]

really??

[indigo osprey]

Nope, never

Admittedly, the scripts I have with pixie really encourage them to stay in the game long (so no snakecharmer)

[acoustic chasm]

i've seen it on wackamole, a teensy

but thats because it might be not worth executing a good player over it and its a leviathan script

[sour harness]

9/4: which travelers would you rather be good when playing as, and which would you rather be evil when playing as?

[minor pier]

Good Bishop, evil Voudon. Most killing Travelers are fun no matter the alignment, too.

[next marlin]

I once travelled into a game and told the ST "make me the evil Barista and double the Cerenovus every night"

I was good and also the game continued for only one more day and the only thing I did was double the witch, but

[sour harness]

"most" aren't there 2? Unless you count but those are stretches

[minor pier]

I'm implicitly counting Butcher as such, yes, since it can really reap up some nice executions

[sour harness]

Oh alright

[minor pier]

Judge unfortunately gets exiled before using it way too often, it's quite risky to leave alive. And Harlot, well, it's a bigger stretch indeed.

[sour harness]

I should probably answer my own question lol
Good:
Evil:
Not at all:

[sly crescent]

depends entirely on script, but i want Apprentice to not exist because it's too strong when evil, so i guess that's my choice for evil 🙃
good Scapegoat is decent, good Voudon could be fun

[next marlin]

evil apprentice isn't too strong in snv, you witchkill one guy and get insta-exiled because of minion count

[sly crescent]

good Voudon basically takes on the responsibility of seeing through bad reasons for executions for the first couple days, it's a lot but can be reasonably helpful to not end up with 9/10 players executing someone for Undertaker info except they executed the Undertaker

[sour harness]

Or, when a good apprentice travels in the witch stops sinking but the evil team keeps bluffing ceremadness

[sly crescent]

u got me there for a moment, no wiki says Apprentice appears in BMR

[sour harness]

Really? I thought the wiki divided up the travellers into their home scripts

[zenith lotus]

it does

except gangster, cause thats experimental

[sly crescent]

ye i know but for how much snv talk there was i thought i remembered the app script wrong

[zenith lotus]

yea, apprentice's "home script" is bmr

[next marlin]

Traveller script assignment is...yeah I mean I guess 'technically' some of them work better in certain scripts but given Judge/Mastermind is a nominally-home-script interaction I'm fine with putting them multiple places

Evil apprentice in snv sure is a repeatedly failed experiment though

[sly crescent]

and so a character that's gonna at best get chambermaid info that's not guaranteed to be believed as good, and DA/Mastermind/kill ability when evil... 😬 what the balance

[next marlin]

Apprentice assassin isn't toooo bad powerwise, it's the "skewing the townsfolk/minion ratio" that's the problem more generally

In part this is a problem that so many people make travellers evil way more often than they should be

[sour harness]

It's not supposed to be 50/50!!

[next marlin]

Especially annoying when there are two travellers and everyone is tunnelled on them being bootleg evil twins

They should be both good a solid chunk of the time!

and sometimes both evil because it's funny

[sour harness]

Last time I ran travellers there were 2, one was good one was evil but only the evil one was tunneling on the good one being evil

Like I think most people thought they were both good

(well the evil team knew bc spy)

[sour harness]

The evil gunslinger shot the good unspent scapegoat

[fast anchor]

most killing travelers are fun, evil Matron is very very fun

Good voudon is basically just calling the shots for the first couple days which can be fun

As Chal said, killing travelers are fun no matter what (except butcher which is more fun as good)

[foggy grotto]

I hate evil Harlot

also Evil Bone Collector is usually more fun than good Bone Collector

[sharp violet]

I always find it hilarious when the ST forgets about the Damsel-Bone Collector interaction and you see the outed dead Damsel begging the town to exile the newly travelled in BC

[foggy grotto]

Butcher is also really good sided conceptually

i think i’ve lost the game for our team as an evil butcher on more than one occasion

[next marlin]

Butcher being an snv traveller feels odd to me, it mostly seems to exist there as counterplay to madness executions

Otherwise it stylistically feels tb

Or bmr

Or just not snv

[sharp violet]

I think Ive seen evil Butcher work the best with like stuff like Baron and Damsel

Too many outsiders a bit too okay with being executed

[copper quail]

As evil probably and (but since I despise the role a bit too much I think I would rather not see an Apprentice at all)
And as good likely

[young sonnet]

Evil Deviant is fantastic

Evil deviant and goblin are like, the only two "outed" evils I enjoy

[sour harness]

Goblin is fun because it's simultaneously a silent minion and outed evil

[primal crescent]

9/5: What's a character that you hate?
Unspoil this only after you answer: ||What's a good thing about it that you have to admit?||

[severe raven]

I don't like the Vizier. At least with Psychopath you can choose not to out evil immediately, and the Alchemist jinx is janky.

||I have to admit, it does make town much more careful about who votes for what.||

[next marlin]

Poisoner is a dramatically overrated minion with a painful amount of inbuilt swing -- either you die immediately, you poisonlock the damsel or something, or you win outright because all info supports your world and there's nothing town can do about it. On customs, it tends to be crazy OP (Fang Gu+Poisoner and No Dashii+Poisoner aaaaaa); it's better on its homescript, where so many roles are YSK or not-info-per-se that the amount of damage an individual pois can do is mitigated, and where Investigator existing makes it possible to solve for Poisoner. Even there, Spy+Poisoner sure is a thing that exists. ||I get it, though -- it's fundamental to the game that Poisoner exists in some form, and specifically does so on TB. I don't have to like it, but I respect it.||

[fast anchor]

Alchemist just doesn't work with 99% the Minions we have released now, and I almost always just want to remove it off any script it's on. It's either overtuned or an Outsider most of the time with only a few options that work half the time.

||Alch-SW is very funny esp with Heretic or Legion. And the good interactions it does have, like Witch, ET, FM/Goblin are very interesting. I do think that it works best in Heretic, but that's not saying it can't be fun outside of those scripts.||

[sour harness]

Shoutout to for being my least favorite roles in the game

||oh boy I'll just do the 3, I didn't look at the extra bit until after posting that
Vizier mind games go crazy
Alch is really really funny and if paired with the right minions I could totally see it being fun, but we do not have those minions
Poopy grower is genuinely a cool twist, I just wish it wasn't so polarizing||

[dense moat]

Cult Leader: Its inheirently a role that ends the game in an instant and that's an issue with the fundamental concept. Its very all of nothing and the minigame of "do they have evil neighbors" isn't super fun.It encourages Day 1 Rerack metas of only voting on early cults. I also dont think it works as a discount Empath either. ||I do appriciate the party game element of people describing silly cults and voting them. And I have seen good Cult Leaders get satisfying wins (which is good for a TF)||

[sharp violet]

Snake Charmer.
||It is absolutely hilarious when groups haven't played with it much and if your group is advanced enough to where every player is capable of bluffing being Snake Charmed, the dynamic is enjoyable||

[sour harness]

Yeah I love roles like snake charmer and marionette but I can't deny that the implications of them existing are hard to understand

[sharp violet]

I do feel like roles like Cerenovus get slightly nerfed by it

In theory, if every player is super versed in bluffing you can make crazy space, in practice lots of ceremad players just = good because you know they wouldnt do it as evil

[next marlin]

A lot of STs are afraid of really enforcing madness which doesn't help

It's at its most interesting when you really, really do need to build plausible misinfo

Newer STs often fall back into a "you need to claim a role but not necessarily worldbuild around it" compromise, which seems intuitively like it works but actually sucks for both parties -- a cerelocked player still can't get out any info, while the cere themselves isn't getting any real mileage out of their ability and is soft-outed

[sharp violet]

Hot take: Strictly enforcing madness is healthy for groups, ye

I do know Cerenovus is intended to be if people make an earnest attempt to be mad, but I do think lots of players do try really earnestly but are kinda super readable anyway

[next marlin]

I land at "the most plausible world should be that either you are X role, or you are an evil player bluffing X role" for normal-madness (i.e. not stuff where a mechanically confirmed player is mad as something)

Which goes very hard when it hits

Lower thresholds like this tend to produce games where it's...kind of sad?

It has the same problem as other "might" abilities where they get misread as meaning "arbitrary" rather than "a complex series of conditionals based on gamestate"

[sharp violet]

Do you make Mutant arbitrary?

[next marlin]

Also, every time someone in f3 says "I'm the savant with no info" and the game doesn't end on the spot with their execution, a kitten dies

[sharp violet]

This isnt a blind decision but I sometimes decide that I will not kill a Mutant even if they break madness

[next marlin]

Mutant is a complex series of conditionals based on gamestate, which boil down to "do you look worse right now if you live or if you die"

Generally speaking, you should execute mutants less often than feels not-mean, and execute ceremad players more often than feels not-mean

A mutant in an outsider-count-confirmed Fang Gu game who begs for death for three days and remains alive is extremely fun

[sharp violet]

Ye Im stringent on ceremadness and Pit Hagged mutants because I dont like denying people their ability

But im ok with just letting a starting mutant live even when it's like "good" for them to live because down the line it's almost never really that simple

[sharp violet]

Lool I had that

Mutant, Barber, Sweetheart all came out as pit-hagged or starting Outsider

The real Fang Gu was the early pit-hagged Klutz who never claimed, and the other 3 all got exed

[foggy grotto]

Organ Grinder

|| ??? i guess it could be fun for the organ grinder specifically??? ||

[next marlin]

Hystrex I cannot work out the react here
I like it but I cannot work it out

[sharp violet]

well what else are you supposed to do if you haven't been consulting all game? say "I've been Pit-Hagged into the Savant" or something?

[next marlin]

IME this is usually people who've been cerelocked and are just going "I have no info all game lol"

But also, yes, if you are mad as the savant on d5 I expect you to have 5 days of plausible savant info

[sour harness]

If killing kittens isn't the most botc!godfather thing ever, idk what is

[next marlin]

It's not likely that everyone in the game has been keeping super close track of someone to make sure they've never consulted, and also a lot of people randomly talk to the ST at some point to half-commit to bluffs or just to ask questions

But also yeah strikingly often this is a reaction to a cerelock and that's antifun

I have been there as the cere locking someone with "no info all game as the savant lol"

[sour harness]

I execute for that lol

If it's like "I got a flowergirl yes yes no but I forget who voted" that's relatively ok, but I wouldn't let much worse than that slide

[next marlin]

That's what real flowergirls do so that's fine