secret thing

[fast anchor]

If a Townsfolk, I’d consider curing them of that droison:

"Each night, choose a player: learn if they are drunk or poisoned. They are sober and healthy until dusk."

[flat lintel]

This would be strong

[sly crescent]

yeah doing both learning and sobering up is a lot

but also imagine on a Lleech script:
you learn that the [Slayer player] is poisoned.
hey [Slayer player], shoot yourself!

[indigo osprey]

The problem is that droison uncertainty is such a key element of evil's power on scripts (where droison is prezent) that any character removing or detecting it, is automatically very strong.

[sour harness]

it's not very hard to break things by curing droison

cannibal is an easy example

i think thats why barista is designed the way it is

[sly crescent]

healthy Cannibal-Fang Gu is fun yeah

[indigo osprey]

So that's why the only way a droison detector works (imo) is by adding misinformation to the whole. I tested a character that was a fortune teller with one good and one evil player as red-herring. The strength in this character is not in findingdroison, but in not finding droison, which I think is a lot. (But even then: the 'undroisoned' characters could be evil players just bluffing.)

[flat lintel]

Funnie

[indigo osprey]

So from my pov and limited testing experience: the only way a droison detector works is by detecting wher eit isn't

[sly crescent]

a gambler/gossip class of character can work with either though
each night*, choose a player: if they are drunk or poisoned, you die.
each night*, choose a player: if they are sober and healthy, a player dies.

called respectively Vampire Bat and Crazy Bartender

[indigo osprey]

The first one is more interesting

[sour harness]

I mean same with real FT in most cases

[sour harness]

6/9 (hehe): what are your favorite hidden role games besides botc?

[patent elbow]

My family life

[sly crescent]

monopoly, but

[hot orchid]

Bristol 1350

[sharp violet]

Secret Hitler or Social Deduction Codenames

[agile sigil]

I like one of their sequels (Hollywood 1947) a bit more but yeah bristol was my first exposure into a social deduction game other than just like Mafia

[sharp violet]

Massacards

[tall raft]

Two Rooms and a Boom
Maybe Massacards, but it's not released yet

[young sonnet]

What's Massacards?

[tall raft]

A finished but not published game
Fully documented by the youtube channel
Massacres Mansion

Sort of like Murder in Hong Kong

But also sort of like Mafia

[flat lintel]

i need someone with a really good grip on how charactes interact with each other

[indigo osprey]

ask here: https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/570050241022263317

Or here: https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/570328029939630090

depending on what you want to do

[lucid crag]

Trouble in Terrorist Town!

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-18-2022/PjA7Kx.gif

[foggy grotto]

[heady cradle]

I've played a lot of Avalon, and as a matter of fact, I rather like it (despite it's flaws).

[fast anchor]

BANG! and maybe one night, too

[karmic slate]

06/10 (ew month-day calendar): If BotC had Loading Screen Tips, What would be your most suggested?

[sour harness]

(it's not even true)

[flat lintel]

"empaths not real"

no are, just not real

[valid garden]

TIP: Even Good Players might be Lying!

[flat lintel]

thats an actually good one

[sharp violet]

Remember to be an E.M.P.A.T.H!

[karmic slate]

Tip: Just because they're Outed Evil doesn't mean they're not a good chat

[flat lintel]

not real 🥱

[smoky mural]

TIP: Not everyone is your enemy... dummy!

[fast anchor]

TIP: Don't be afraid to share your information just because it could be wrong. The amount of correct info in a game usually vastly outweighs the incorrect info!

[karmic slate]

me totally not taking notes on everything here

[sly crescent]

Zombuul is the deadliest demon in Bad Moon Rising.

[young sonnet]

Emphasis on the "dead"

[sly crescent]

oh or one that is "Nothing in BotC happens simultaneously." that's on top of / mixed in with another text that says "Lleech and their host die simultaneously." and only the word simultaneously is consistently readable

[sharp violet]

Remember how many Outsiders are supposed to be in your game - it may help you out!

[dense moat]

Tip: Assume your info is sober & healthy until proven otherwise. You won’t get far by constantly disbelieving your own ability

[sharp violet]

Tip: Don’t meta the STs!

Tip: Do meta the STs!

[young sonnet]

Minecraft ass tips there

[sour harness]

Not on Steam!

[fast anchor]

TIP: Sometimes it’s better to kill someone trusted than someone with a powerful ability.

[indigo osprey]

TIP: Sometimes it's better to kill someone with a claimed powerful ability than someone trusted.

[fast anchor]

Perfect

[indigo osprey]

TIP: Don't die, you are good! Every good player that dies, is always good for evil.

[fast anchor]

TIP: The best course of action might be to get executed and prove you aren’t the Demon when the game continues.

[indigo osprey]

Perfect

[fast anchor]

TIP: Don’t tell ANYONE you’re the Heretic. Not unless you have to.

swap heretic for poppygrower, damsel, politician…

[indigo osprey]

TIP: Claim Heretic far and wide. Evil doesn't know if you are telling the truth.

[dusky minnow]

TIP: Don't tell ANYONE you're the Demon. Not even your minions.

[fast anchor]

TIP: Read your ability once you get your token.

[dusky minnow]

TIP: If you are confused about anything, always feel free to ask your storyteller!

[indigo osprey]

TIP: Yes, absolutely read your ability once you get your token. Read it again. Read it once more. There is no other version of this advice. Read the ability.

[dusky minnow]

TIP: If you want to know who the demon is, just ask! Maybe they will tell you

[fast anchor]

TIP: A registering-as-dead Zombuul counts as a player when checking if the game’s ended. Don’t be alarmed if you wake up with two players alive!

[indigo osprey]

TIP: Always kill people who claim demon. You will fee like an absolute idiot if you let someone who claimed to be the demon alive and then it turns out they are the demon.

[fast anchor]

TIP: Be alarmed if the game’s continuing with two players alive! The sinister Mastermind may be extending the game.

[dusky minnow]

TIP: Travelers can leave the game at any time! Great if you've got another game of Blood on the Clocktower planned

TIP:

[fast anchor]

TIP: The Pacifist should save players that are crucial to the good team’s victory, not frame people as getting saved by the Devil’s Advocate.

[dusky minnow]

TIP:

[fast anchor]

TIP: As the Devil’s Advocate, save good players from execution and claim to be the Pacifist! They’ll be none the wiser when you save an evil teammate.

[sharp violet]

I'd make one about the Fortune Teller being able to check themselves but also being their own red herring

[fast anchor]

TIP: The Lunatic might falsely believe they themselves have a Lunatic.

(it’s fun to write tips for BMR)

[dense moat]

Tip: If the Imp kills themselves, don’t make the Recluse into the Imp

[indigo osprey]

TIP: Check yourself as the fortune teller and confirm one other player as not the demon!

TIP: Don't check yourself as the fortune teller! You might be your own red herring and accuse someone else unjustified!

[devout quail]

TIP: While it may be tempting to execute into an Evil Twin pair right away, you're not in any rush! Make sure you know for certain which twin is evil before you execute one!

TIP: Make sure to execute one of the twins before the game reaches Final 3! If the Demon is able to get both of the twins as the other two alive players, that's a wrap!

[primal crescent]

TIP: Always include an evil character in your threes

[flat lintel]

The issue with these types of tips is that both sides work.

Like all the joke ones about strategy are actually acceptable

[sour harness]

I mean that's how the wiki does its tips

Most of the tips there are self contradictory

Which is great because it just means that the game allows for varied playstyles

[fast anchor]

the one that says to die as the hatter

whoever wrote the wiki tips and tricks had fun

[sour harness]

Lol I haven't read that one

I distinctly remember my first and only lycanthrope game though, I don't think I had even seen a lycan in action before that. I was trying to speed read that wiki (and ended up throwing anyway)

[sweet birch]

TIP: The Lil' Monsta... uhhhh... we don't know

[sharp violet]

TIP: The Vortox's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness, as if the Town can determine that a Vortox is among them, they can simply invert their information to find the truth!

[tall raft]

or maybe they can't

😭

[foggy grotto]

“execute the demon to win”

also maybe character specific tips with the character icon next to them

wait that’s just the tips section on the wiki pages

[cloud plover]

: If you drink with yourself night one, you won't hurt any powerful YSK roles

[cold crest]

Thats just bad script builder. Yell at your script builder if they are on the same script

[flat lintel]

But you will not provide a good D1 exe chdck

[cloud plover]

Honestly, every execution spent "checking a sailor" is wasted

Actually, let me rephrase

[flat lintel]

Depends…. one less candidate

[cloud plover]

Trying to meta ST actions like this (Even for a simple thing like "ST would probably drunk the soldier unless it hit an evil") is not a way that I enjoy playing the game, and since you're betting on the Sailor not dying, it risks slowing the game down, which I'm also not a fan of

When I play Sailor, knowing that I'm picking a person who might potentially have their only ability this game destroyed feels bad

And when I play a game with sailor, I'm never happy when they drink with me

It just feels bad all around

Maybe it's less of a risk with BMR because there's only Granny that has a D1 check, but it still doesn't feel great

[spiral pollen]

metaing the ST is part of the game

BMR doesn't work without it

[cloud plover]

That's fair, and I can deal with it sometimes, but Sailor just doesn't feel worth it to me. The risk is too high, night 1 especially.

No shame if that's how you like to play though

[spiral pollen]

night 1 I'd agree

[flat lintel]

Agree

[flat lintel]

You’re definitely not a social oriented player for sure

For me, I can get behind this

I’m assuming you like SNV more?

[cloud plover]

I like TB lol

Actually though, I prefer BMR to SnV

The town-sourced drosoning is unpleasant, but BMR is just more fun

SNV has madness and too much info

[sly crescent]

i'll take too much over too little any day 😄

[fast anchor]

If the sailor lives, you’re usually confirming the person they drank with as a good Townsfolk

(“Usually” because the Devil’s Advocate exists)

[flat lintel]

an snv lover 🤮

i guess sorta the same though

Like there’s been games with 1 piece of info to solve on and its like ummmm just 1?

Some TB games have this where the info roles get killed off too fast and you’re sorta just playing socials now

but than I played besjbo’s all amne and there was like 50 constitution pages being written ever day

and even as evil, I had a lot to deal with

And than good can’t focus on it all

So they have to pick

There’s benefits to both

A goldilocks is a good 3-5 pieces of info to solve on

Everything else is supplementary

[sweet birch]

This but it does not matter how quickly the info roles die

[flat lintel]

In the recent TB+1 game, all I had to work with was one day of FT info because Summoner and all

The empath had bullshit info

And everything else was Summoner nerfed

[cloud plover]

That feels like a Summoner issue

Though TB is also inherently a little lower on info

[flat lintel]

sorta a mix of both tbh 😦

[vital nova]

If we’re accepting homebrew characters (and late responses) is canonically asexual

[flat lintel]

but I guess the tradeoff of waiting 3 nights for a Demon to summon themselves is that confirmation chains are a fluke

[dense moat]

and apparently homoromantic from a quick google, which would be nice i suppose

Only other ace character with romantic orientation i know is Jasnah from Stormlight Archive

[vital nova]

Biromantic, but yes the main canon relationship is homoromantic!

[dense moat]

fair enough.

[acoustic chasm]

Resistance Avalon

[fast anchor]

12/6: Somehow, you have ended up as the newest host of the Blood on the Clocktower Trivia Show! What sorts of questions do you ask?

[dusky minnow]

How did I get here?

Honestly I think a fun format for that would be similar to that of the Storyteller Quizes, show a grim and the players need to answer questions about it

A reoccuring one would be "What numbers could a get?"

[karmic slate]

Character interactions for me 😌

[dusky minnow]

Also questions about flavour text like
"Which character has this flavor text?"
"نحن لسنا هنا.
انت لست حقيقي.
كل شيء هو وهم.
أسئلتك هي جبل نار في يوم صافٍ."

[mild notch]

Questions about niche "Yes but don't" interactions

[ruby swan]

might be fun to give a snippet of ability text, and see how many different characters the contestants can name that have that snippet in their ability text

[mild notch]

If the Imp chooses themself at night, can the Storyteller choose that they pass to a Minion other than an in-play sober and healthy Scarlet Woman? || Yes, but the Scarlet Woman's ability would activate too and create a second living Imp, so don't. ||

[flat lintel]

How much am I getting paid to be here?

[fast anchor]

let's say enough for you to care

[flat lintel]

Second question, can anyone read this?

[flat lintel]

In a Vortox Game, anything up to the number of players in play

But technically also you can give Math 500

[flat lintel]

Side gig?

[sly crescent]

if Fortune Teller holds Lil' Monsta, Monk protects the Fortune Teller, and the Fortune Teller selects two players one of which is their red herring - what do they learn? for bonus points, what does Mathematician learn?

[indigo osprey]

Get out

[flat lintel]

Well, they can’t be Lil Monsta because Monk goes before Demon. Thus protecting FT from holding baby. In this case, you have to tell LM to pick again.

[fast anchor]

being the Demon isn't a harmful effect

[flat lintel]

I’d conclude that being voted to hold a Demon baby in your house kinda is, but than again…

[indigo osprey]

Just for funzies, I am going to rule: no, they don't learn because the red herring is a harmful effect that the fortune teller puts on themselves and since they are the demon, they are protected, just like a cerenovus that would cernovus themselves isn't cerenovused then. +1 Mathematician, because monk is causing fortune teller to behave differently.

[flat lintel]

You had a crazy night. Take a drink

[indigo osprey]

I award myself 10 points and ymh is banished

[heady cradle]

Breanna, from Leverage: Redemption, is — though it's extremely subtle that they're ace.

(Like, they have ace and homoromantic laptop stickers, tho they have an episode of the show dedicated to the latter.)

[sly crescent]

first of all - correct answer 😂
as far as we know Monk can't protect from being handed LM just like they can't protect SW from catching demon.
for my starting question ||one valid interpretation is Monk protects from demon ability (FT is "the Demon" due to LM) causing false information (vide Vortox), so the FT can't get a false read from red herring that night, they learn a "no" that that's Fortune Teller working abnormally due to Monk, math +1. but with no write-up it could be interpretted differently||

oh and ye Adrian got it absolutely i missed that. wanna banish me? you and what army?!

[indigo osprey]

Me and my army OF CORRECT ANSWERS

https://tenor.com/view/my-army-bowser-jack-black-the-super-mario-bros-movie-my-squad-gif-4505777042547220927

[sly crescent]

>AddDefense "my question was actually a correct answer to the daily question posed by Axolator, as is the thread's purpose from what i can tell"

[indigo osprey]

fair

[sharp violet]

voteST ymh "no exile today"

[tall raft]

I don’t think this true

I think you can’t

Even if you wanted to

[lucid crag]

Oh I think you can if you wanted to, you just might not be allowed to ST again lol

[sour harness]

By that logic you can make pretty much any rules decision if you want to

[lucid crag]

"I made a rules decision-" pulls grenade out of grimoire "-on how to run Boomdandy"

[young sonnet]

Lmfao

[sour harness]

Incredible

[dusky minnow]

Goblin Grenade level of genius

[foggy grotto]

6/13

If the different demons were boss fights in any video game genre of your choice, what would some of them be like?

[dense moat]

No Dashii would be a boss in an RPG like Dark Souls. If you get too close, it has a reactive attack that damages you and does poison

Its best fought from range

[fast anchor]

Leviathan changes the genre of the game entirely for a gimmick fight. Surprise, your Skyrim just became a turn-based RPG

[indigo osprey]

Each base 3 script is part of the elite 4 in a pokemon game, together with the minions

Pukka is like Mantis in metal gear solid: predicting and blocking your moves

Shabaloth does terrible damage but also throws healing potions around

[young sonnet]

You (Trouble Brewing) must face the Elite 4 (BMR, SnV, GoS, and TT) and then defeat The Champion (MHD)

[indigo osprey]

Fang gu is a 2 fase bossfight and the second part he is controlling one of your fellow comrades (randomly chosen every fight)

[young sonnet]

Imp would definitely be the starter first boss at the end of the tutorial that can be killed pretty easily but is mainly there to show you the ropes

[indigo osprey]

Zombuul is also a 2 fase bossfight, the second one fighting a whole range of zombies until you kill the correct one

Po has a devestating charge attack

Vigormortis revives his fallen aligns to fight you once again: don't waste time killing them

Vortox makes the gravity and your vision and controls weird: left is right on your joystick etc

Riot is a gigantic mob of good and evils you have to fight your way through

Lil Monsta is an elite evil squad whereby the ultimate bass boss jumps around and you have to kill all of them

Kazali is just ordinary people ready to attack yo

[sour harness]

But somehow it still keeps one of the core mechanics of the game intact and it's actually kinda fun?

[fast anchor]

Debatable

depends on who you ask

[sour harness]

Well that's how it always is with these gimmicks

[dense moat]

Yagga probably just releases mostly random attacks across the arena with a theme that uses screaming as a motif

But what is Ojo’s fight like?

[cloud plover]

Ojo is one of those levels where the tiles on the floor glow different colors and if you're standing on a red one you die

[sour harness]

For yagga I could see a fight with similar vibes to this, just more screaming https://youtu.be/USgjcgzkplU?si=HJynsfNdTjgR372H

[pseudo fulcrum]

Legion would have lots of waves of less powerful enemies

[dusky minnow]

Alternativly for yagga, it's the Spamton fight

Even has the yagga phrase equivalent in [BIG SHOT]

[young sonnet]

Yeah I like that idea better

[dense moat]

What would Al HAd be?

An RPG thing where you choose what debuff to accept?

[sour harness]

Ok no ur right actually

[shrewd cloud]

I like to imagine the Vortox as not strictly a boss fight but a difficult platforming section in a platformer where you have to navigate platforms flying everywhere due to the wind. These kind of moments are usually the climax in platformers (which bosses usually are in other games) and honestly I just dig having a difficult platforming section inside of a tornado

Another idea is Riot starting with one of them, then fighting three of them at once, similar to how the Mantis Lords in Hollow Knight start with one then move to two at once

[dense moat]

The King Dedede boss fight in Kirby Planet Robobot also does the "start with one, then fight 3 thing". and regadring Vortox, I do like the idea that it has some really high stakes attack or challenge you cant mess up (resembling the required execution clause)

[abstract cosmos]

Legion in a stealth/horror game where you have to hide out of sight from prowling townsfolk is a cool idea. not really a "boss fight" per say, but think little nightmares type boss fight

[sour harness]

Those are both super cool

Fellow hollow knight fan 🤝

[sly crescent]

LM - Thank you! But our princess is another castle!

[young sonnet]

I see you and I raise you, Vortox is the (normal) ending of Talos Principle 1

[young sonnet]

And Riot is the Hell Guards boss fight from Doom (2016)

[fast anchor]

Riot as Mantis Lords 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[flat lintel]

6/14 - If BOTC characters were Anime characters, which would they be?

Ojo for an easy Kira.

(from Death Note)

[dense moat]

Boomdandy as the Bomber from Hunter x Hunter. I guess you could argue for Bakugo from MHA but I wouldn’t focus on that

https://tenor.com/view/genthru-bomber-hunter-x-hunter-anime-stare-gif-23535917

This guy

[sly crescent]

Slayer - Tsubasa

[sweet birch]

My girl Futaba would be the engineer

https://tenor.com/view/persona5-futaba-sakura-gif-19856018

[dusky minnow]

Gluttony for FMA Brotherhood would be good for the Shab

https://tenor.com/view/full-metal-alchemist-full-metal-alchemist-anime-cartoon-gif-5659390

[rose vault]

"Hacker" role when?

[dense laurel]

Haruko and Jinyu from FLCL as an Evil twin pair (Haruko is the Evil Twin)

[flat lintel]

6/17 - If you were to pick one day to be National BOTC Day, which day would it be and why?

Bonus - What would be the events planned for that day?

[sly crescent]

nationalist alert 😔

[fast anchor]

which nation?

[cursive cobalt]

The day BOTC was released to the public

I guess we would just... play BOTC on that day

[flat lintel]

"Global BOTC Day"

[dense moat]

Ravenswood Bluff : )

[fast anchor]

so close! that is a city ❤️

[sly crescent]

which globe? 🤪

[dense moat]

It’s a city state. I am not Cerenovus mad about this statement

[valid garden]

I love starfruit

[sour harness]

Is it not a town??

TOWNsfolk????

[fast anchor]

it has a mayor

mayors preside over cities

this is the real reason ToD doesn't have a mayor

[sly crescent]

there's a city named Temple of Doom?

i'm terribly sorry. that joke is simultaneously not bad enough and worse

[young sonnet]

Not true

I live in a small town and it has a mayor

[fast anchor]

clearly you're party of hystrex's propaganda coalition and i will not stand for this mayor misinformation

[young sonnet]

So true

My bad I forgot

[fast anchor]

wait, making a stormcaught mayor script called "mayor misinformation" sounds kinda hype

[cloud plover]

"Mayor may not"

[tall raft]

Mayor, May I

[valid garden]

"Mayor Contain Nuts"

[sharp violet]

If BOTC were a competitive video game, what would your top "counterpicks" to various characters be?

(We can ignore hate-jinxes / characters that counter everything like )

[rose vault]

That feels very hard to answer. The Assassin and Widow say hi.

[sharp violet]

:
:

:
:

[abstract cosmos]

/ : /

[young sonnet]

Knight hard-counters Vortox

Steward is a soft-counter

Gossip and gambler hard counter Leviathan

[sour harness]

Poisoner is a great counter to most tf

Empath is a great counter to the existence of an evil team on most scripts

Expanding to more video game stuff, barista is a great support role, especially for stuff like VI

[fast anchor]

vortox counters... a lot, actually

most YSK info, bounty hunter (double ouch), dreamer, high priestess

[sour harness]

I mean vortox doesn't counter HP very hard does it

As long as you don't show them the BEST person to talk to it's still valid in a vortox world to show them someone who's pretty good to talk to

Unless I'm misunderstanding that interaction? But idk how else it would work

[fast anchor]

sure, but pretty good =/= best

[sour harness]

I mean if they learn the second best every night that's still super powerful

[fast anchor]

and as an ST, you should really be showing the HP players who help evil

since it's the Vortox's ability

show them people who help drive evil's worlds!

[sour harness]

I guess that makes sense

[fast anchor]

in vortox the HP can be an extra evil team member and not even know it because "i saw them n1 and they claimed this really important thing, it must be true"

and then town spends like 3 days focused on who the hell the goon is or something

HP vortox is very funny but HP is undeniably really bad in a vortox game

oh yeah also balloonist + vortox is kinda broke

[warped fog]

Summoner hardcounters Knight

[sly crescent]

Golem as a counter to Evil Twin, Goblin and Psychopath

[fast anchor]

and Boomdandy!

[flat lintel]

golem is straight up a townsfolk sometimes 😭

[acoustic chasm]

:

[sharp violet]

:

[patent elbow]

Scarecrow:

[pliant grail]

Scarecrow and banshee on the same script sounds so bad actually

[patent elbow]

Scare crow and any of the “If the demon chooses you” roles suck together

There are way too many things that just don’t work with scarecrow

[tall raft]

Isn't misregestration a negative effect

So if the monk protects the demon

It will start regestering as a demon again

[pliant grail]

The problem is when the monk protects anyone else because the demon is registering as a minion and so circumvents it

[lost thistle]

pukka hard counters ravenkeeper and sage

banshee as well

assassin counters choirboy 😭

(or godfather)

[fast anchor]

20/6: You can swap one character on any of the base 3 scripts for another already-existing (so not speculated or homebrew) character. What's the best change to make? The funniest?

[lean isle]

Al-Had for Imp

[valid garden]

inb4 "Ogre for butlerr!!!!1!!!1"

Butler is great & it works on TB wonderfully

Tbh

WW for Steward maybe?

[devout quail]

knight for investigator

[flat lintel]

butler goes to hell!!

dreamer on snv is another good shout

i would say professor on bmr, but ill let it live on the only script it can live on

[sweet birch]

Flowergirl for amnesiac

Also on TB, I wouldn't want to sub anything out but I think adding goblin could be interesting

Simply homebrew that amnesiac guesses aren't vortox'd

Problem solved

[fast anchor]

i'm surprised that of all the s&v characters it's Flowergirl you're swapping out

[sweet birch]

This is the text player in me talking

Alternatively, ET for harpy

Fuck ET all my homies hate ET

Literally only fun when everyone is speaking in hieroglyphics

(@/LFGtext someone run no-words snv so I can play pls)

[sweet birch]

Anyways I'm surprised that this isn't official

Maybe Steven Medway will throw it in the ever-expanding list of new clarifications and jinxes

[flat lintel]

yeah Amne guesses should be vortox free

[sour harness]

Something on TB for dreamer. Maybe investigator bc it's unfun for whoever's in the ping

[flat lintel]

(being the amnesiac in a vortox game where you can't bingo isn't fun 😠 especially when you solved your ability and didn't realize it)

[flat lintel]

undertaker? virgin? 😭

[sour harness]

I mean you can always include in the amne ability "the results of your guesses cannot be affected by character abilities and you may guess while dead"

[sour harness]

Also good choices

TB with no virgin feels maybe rough tho

[dense moat]

Professor for Alchemist could be an interesting shout. Mastermind is unfortunate, but it could cook otherwise

[sour harness]

Well nvm the replacement would be dreamer so it's probably fine

Witch for mez if fang gu wasn't in the picture. Pithag + mez (with soi) has so much potential

[dense moat]

The funniest thing to do would be to put Athiest on SNV

[sour harness]

Lol that would be amazing

[dense moat]

Replace Artist with it’s because they both have the A and T sound : )

[flat lintel]

but than shab is confirmed

[dense moat]

Incidentally, Snake and Savant are genuinely very good for Atheist. Cere and even Twin also do great

[fast anchor]

shab's already confirmed 99% of the time on bmr

since the prof has no reason not to just rez the d1 execute

[dense moat]

Shab is always confirmed. Every professor just chooses the first execution

[fast anchor]

the 1% of the time is when, like, the first two executes survive

and you're forced to rez a night death so you can use it at all

[dense moat]

I do actually like Athiest on SNV as the funny choice that also semi works

[flat lintel]

Shab should be allowed to make n1 decisions, but they dont die

[dense moat]

Shab is fine. It’s a double kill Demon whose cost for unfettered killing is a resurrection that confirms it’s in play and somebody as good and prevents it from winning too fast

It may be nice to have a Professor variant that can cover it, but it doesn’t need to have that

[sweet birch]

Nah Alch-GF is also terrible (broken in good's favor)

I learned that the hard way

Alch-assassin is interesting though

[flat lintel]

This needs to be jinxed

Alch-Mastermind is good for knowing that Mastermind isn't in play

[sweet birch]

I think they're fine to just not exist together tbh

[flat lintel]

yeah

Question: Do you think Professor would still be good if it read that

"Once per game, choose a player: they are resurrected."

[sweet birch]

Like I know Steve is trying to avoid it but some hate jinxes are good and fine, actually

[flat lintel]

that way it doesn't confirm a townsfolk, but confirms itself

[sweet birch]

No I prefer when it can fail

[flat lintel]

but it never fails 😭

[sweet birch]

Also I think rezzing evils is not townsfolky

[flat lintel]

but how often does an evil die d1

other than a mastermind demon stunt

[sweet birch]

TL science

Gone wrong

[cursive cobalt]

Unbluffable

That's the issue here

[flat lintel]

oh yeah

[sweet birch]

Better articulated than I could

Though tbf in its current state it's not that bluffable either

Unless it's a shab game and people keep surviving the axe

[sharp violet]

Moonchild for PD

[sly crescent]

solid

[sly crescent]

Preacher instead of Sailor or Pacifist maybe for BMR because it's mechanical acuity instead of balance prowess when it comes to storyteller?

Lleech instead of Imp is funny.
Lleech instead of No Dashii might actually work?
Lleech instead of Zombuul is both funny and might work.

[sour harness]

Lleech feels kinda horrible on bmr

"let's execute the sailor for science" oop good just won by accident and evil didn't have a plausible reason to resist that

[sly crescent]

Lleech has this problem on any script 😁 at least on bmr it has the cliche sailor bluff if found and poison plays interestingly with many possible hosts

[devout quail]

unless the host is a grandmother, sailor, gambler, fool, pacifist, neighbor to a tea lady whose other neighbor is evil (and if their other neighbor is good it swings into the other direction), goon, or tinker. but if you can avoid all of that i'm sure it's great!

[sly crescent]

well, if you think about it the roundabout way - if all hosts are equally terrible, it's balanced!

and it's not like Tinker or Grandmother don't have an explanation for not dying. it's really just suicidal Gambler that's a problem - one out of how many might be fine, compared to usual Lleech problems

[valid garden]

Grandmother seeing someone as the wrong role I think is the issue

[sour harness]

Balance and fun are two very different things

[sly crescent]

that's just a Pukka'd Grandmother - N2 "protected" by Lleech bluffing Innkeeper

[sour harness]

Not really? If you're not actively executing good players on bmr then you're missing out on valuable info. Whereas on something like TB you really only want to execute evil players unless you're using a virgin

[sly crescent]

it's fair to some degree, feel like you're only thinking of the "execute randomly -> good wins" scenario, you also need to look at how hard it is to detect droison

out of the 3 scripts it's my opinion that BMR would be most likely to "accept" the Lleech with all it's flaws (assuming ofc optional rule to dismantle drunk->immortal problem)

[devout quail]

i think people are attached to lleech on bmr because bmr has lots of exe survival, not realizing that the lleech's exe survival is only a means to an end - it's not supposed to have an out for it survives executiont, that's supposed to be a sign to the good team that they have to start playing a different game

[sly crescent]

that's true on some scripts for sure, but when you get down to staticistics finding a Lleech leads to f3 that has at most 2 execution candidates, which isn't great for evil team's winning chances

because for evil team it's 50% to lose in f3 on top of whatever bad luck they could've found themselves in earlier

[indigo osprey]

Lleech is a weak demon by default and could use some help

[devout quail]

i don't think it's a bad thing that good is at an advantage if they manage to find and execute the demon

[tall raft]

I think the fix to Professor is forcing it to choose people who died at night

More likely to succeed (which is always more fun), and bluffable by shab

[fast anchor]

lleech on s&v goes very hard though

[fast anchor]

replying to this

like pithag and vortox go on holiday was a script that people played for a reason (even though nowadays it's kinda 🤨)

agreed that bmr + lleech feels pretty bad but lleech over no dashii might work

[sly crescent]

that is also a fair sentiment, but overall it's very random how executing Lleech (potentially twice because some red herring execution survival on script) helps good team have a nice f3 but also they might just execute some willing Cannibal/Undertaker food or just wherever droisoned information leads them to and accidentally hitting the host. that's why Lleech will forever remain unbalanaced

[sour harness]

Sounds good sure

I don't love it on a vortox script but it's not that bad

[cursive cobalt]

Dreamer for General

[cursive cobalt]

It's not

[sly crescent]

nice to look for Dreamer replacements but i feel like general info is too arbitrary on snv

[cursive cobalt]

Being a Minion in an Investigator ping gives you a free excuse to push on 2 other good players and divert attention away from your Demon

[sour harness]

We must have different experiences then

[cursive cobalt]

You don't just have to sit there and take it

(Also by that logic shouldn't Empath also be removed)

[sour harness]

Yes

I don't like empath

[sly crescent]

that's right! Shugenja replaces Empath perfectly

[cursive cobalt]

(Conflict is a part of this game and its a part of what makes it fun, learning to deal with conflict as evil and push back against good is a valuable skill to train unless you want to keep playing the same "ST handholds the evil team by drunking/sponging up every pointer in the game" ordeals)

[sour harness]

Idk about perfectly but sure

[cursive cobalt]

(Which I personally find very unfun)

[cursive cobalt]

Empath is broken, but the issue here is that Shugenja fills an entirely different niche to it

[sly crescent]

ye i got too excited and forgor shugenja is one time info

[sour harness]

Shugenja would be kinda unfortunate on TB actually because of all the alignment misinfo

[cursive cobalt]

Saying Shugenja replaces Empath well because they both interact with seating is like saying Barber and Sweetheart are perfect replacements because they both trigger on death

Or Artist and Fisherman are good replacements because they both visit the ST

[sour harness]

Empath is reasonable enough on TB bc there's stuff like recluse and poisoner to call the number into question

[cursive cobalt]

Eh

Empath is busted

It's only balancing factor boils down to "it can be droisoned"

[sour harness]

"reasonable enough" =/= balanced lol

[cursive cobalt]

Which can be said about literally any other info role

So its not even a real weakness

[sly crescent]

if there was EN* shugenja it would possibly be abetter character (for TB) than Empath though

[sour harness]

Recluse and spy hurt empath more than they hurt most roles, but I think that's the rest of my argument there

Empath really is just broken

[cursive cobalt]

I presume this would only detect livings

Anyway back to the topic of Investigator

I feel like the role gets too much stigma

"It's not fun to be found out D1", "It's terrible having to be outed evil from the getgo"

[sly crescent]

ye bunch of brain misfires tonight. an empath-shugenja combo, clock/anti learning of nearest living evil players would be potentially slightly less broken than Empath

[cursive cobalt]

That stigma surrounding the role is what results in it getting false info so often

Aka: being the antithesis of what it's meant to be

And I don't like that

I feel as if evils who don't know how to deal with confrontational roles such as the Investigator aren't viewing the role in a good light

You're never an outed Minion in an Investigator ping

Even in TB, you have very solid arguments against the accusation

[sour harness]

Ok say I push on both the other ping and the investigator but town still trusts them, now what

[cursive cobalt]

Droison + Invest being an easy and profitable bluff + I'm not the Minion, he is

[cursive cobalt]

Why does town trust the other ping and the Investigator

Trust doesn't just magically manifest

[sour harness]

Clearly you haven't played with my group 🫠

[cursive cobalt]

There have been plenty of times where I've tossed all evidence onto one of the two and went on with my day

Others where I've convinced town to execute 2 or 3 of us

[sour harness]

No but actually, sometimes I have no idea why people figure out that I'm evil irl

[cursive cobalt]

Thereby taking away Demon executions

[sour harness]

Like, besides the ping

[cursive cobalt]

Hmm, maybe that's a problem more individual to you then

[sour harness]

Possible

[next marlin]

Investigator drunk/librarian meta is worth pushing against but wrt "unfun for the pinged" I'd actually say much worse for the good player in the ping (which is only worsened by alcoholic detective)

[cursive cobalt]

My metric on Investigator goes as follows

[sour harness]

I prefer noble because most people in the ping are good and it doesn't cut down on worlds as much by locking in a particular evil character

[cursive cobalt]

If you walk into a group and hear the group discussing how Investigator pings are always too untrustworthy to act upon

That means that the role is being sandbagged

[sour harness]

I agree with you there

[cursive cobalt]

Noble locks in more worlds than Investigator late game

Knowing a Minion is nice

[sour harness]

Which is more fun than early game lol

Imo

[cursive cobalt]

But that one extra good player makes up a lot of power

Since it forces evil to worldbuild in a very contrived way assuming they dont frame you

[cursive cobalt]

True

I do like Noble more than Investigator, but that's just because its more generally flexible

Invest is good at its job, that being finding evils

Noble is also good at its job, that being constricting worldbuilding

[pliant grail]

Sage into tb replacing ravenkeeper
Not for any actual balance reason, probably much less balanced, but because it finishes the washerwoman librarian investigator pattern

[cursive cobalt]

Ironically enough, Sage on TB is weaker than RK overall

Because starpassing is a thing

[sly crescent]

ye Noble is kinda in theory cutting out the middleman -> you don't need to convince anyone that more than 1 player should be executed, they will naturally think impossible that only 1 out of the 4 involved players is evil.

Investigator/bluff leading to 1-2 directed executions is stronger for both sides, but in practice does sometimes require convincing of sober&healthy status

[sour harness]

Add a knight too while you're at it

[dense moat]

Imp noises.

[sour harness]

Shhhh

[foggy grotto]

Baron gets replaced with Organ Grinder this is fine

[next marlin]

TB+1 where the 1 is Organ Grinder

[lost thistle]

okay its time to come up with some clownery substitutions

okay so. snv but instead of vigormortis theres legion

[lost thistle]

haha pit hag go brrrr

[next marlin]

SnV on Expert Mode

[lost thistle]

also snake charmer

this completely falls apart but its a glorious mess

like. almost every single role on snv does not play well with legion but its a fun mess

[next marlin]

(Lunatic replaces Mutant, Atheist replaces uhhhhh)

actually Lunatic replaces all outsiders

4 lunatics

[lost thistle]

plague doctor replaces sweetheart :3

plague doctor on snv is also hella fun

[next marlin]

Having been plague-doctor-cerelocked I distrust many STs with snv minion plaguing

[lost thistle]

actually no it should replace klutz

[next marlin]

Anyway Atheist replaces Artist so you can't ask if it's an atheist game

[lost thistle]

plague doctor gives the st the pit hag ability and they turn somebody into legion

[next marlin]

1 singular legion

[lost thistle]

oh god

[next marlin]

Who was sitting next to a No Dashii so it just pushes the poison out

[lost thistle]

add engineer so we can get pit hag making evil engineer who makes legion

[next marlin]

Just make Legion every night all game

1 at a time

[lost thistle]

engineer replaces uhhh

[next marlin]

Also wait

Good Legion

[lost thistle]

flower girl

wait no

flower girl is hella funny with this

[next marlin]

Horrifying number of yes answers

Engineer replaces Clockmaker because the thing SnV had too much of was clearly YSK characters

Anyway we shouldn't replace Vigor specifically because as we all know the ideal script has absolutely 0 reason to ever trust night deaths

Legion, Vigor, Fang Gu, and Imp

No problems with a script with only these at all

Almost forgot LM

Actually just have SnV but the only demons are Vortox and Legion, this sounds fine

[lost thistle]

okay but look

[next marlin]

Every legion game has 5 fake twin pairs

[lost thistle]

we gotta have the plague doctor in a legion game letting the st turn a player into the fang gu

its totally balanced

[next marlin]

New PD update gives the ST an out-of-play Demon ability

Fang Vortox

[lost thistle]

deaths are arbitrary, we already have pit hag :3

[next marlin]

hmm

[lost thistle]

you know witch is too tame i think

[next marlin]

Legion registers as a Minion so all Legion deaths in a game with a pithagged Vigor are poisoning the only 3 townsfolk

[lost thistle]

what should we have instead

witch doesnt have as many Cursed interactions as pit hag et or cere

did i say cursed i mean very much improved

oh! of course

summoner

because we didnt have enough demon creation already

[next marlin]

Summoner makes Legion, Plague Doctor dies at night, ST turns Summoner into Vigor, all Legions proceed to die and completely poisonshred the remaining handful of townsfolk

"SnV is too goodsided" mfs when you roll up with the vigorkilled legion

This is best when you remember that Summoner-Legions don't know each other

[lost thistle]

okay so our current replacements are:

Townsfolk:
Artist->Atheist
Clockmaker->Engineer

Outsiders:
Klutz->Plague Doctor

Minions:
Witch->Summoner

Demons:
uh.
are we replacing the squid?

oh shit we need lil monsta too

[next marlin]

I think No Dashii to Legion yeah

[lost thistle]

maybe

[next marlin]

Just ignore the character count requirements and add LM as 26

[lost thistle]

honestly we dont Need lil monsta but its a nice addition to the cursedness

[next marlin]

Also what additional minions can we squeeze in

SnV Vizier

[lost thistle]

vizier twins

my favorite

[next marlin]

They'd have to be alch-twins

I mean obviously we should be adding alchemist too

Alch-Pithag has never caused problems, not once

[lost thistle]

TRUE

okay so do we want a 14/5/5/5

[next marlin]

I have actually played "SnV with Ogre, Goblin, and Pixie"

It...worked?

[lost thistle]

what extra outsider do we want

[next marlin]

Of course

Lunatic as extra outsider

[lost thistle]

heretic feels cheap

[lost thistle]

ah of course

pit hag somebody into a lunatic?

[next marlin]

Jinx: you can snakecharm the lunatic

[lost thistle]

sure why not

oh god i forgot about the mathematician

how high can the number go

[next marlin]

Only one way to find out

Actually Psychopath would be hilarious here for +minion

Vigorkilled Psychopath has never been evilsided, not once

[lost thistle]

SNV on cocaine:

Engineer
Dreamer
Snake Charmer
Mathematician
Flowergirl
Town Crier
Oracle
Savant
Seamstress
Philosopher
Atheist
Juggler
Sage
Alchemist

Mutant
Sweetheart
Barber
Plague Doctor
Lunatic

Evil Twin
Summoner
Cerenovus
Pit Hag
Psychopath

Fang Gu
Vigormortis
Legion
Vortox
Lil Monsta

[next marlin]

Extremely unproblematic script

[lost thistle]

each category has 2 changes, except for tf which has 3

[lost thistle]

@fast anchor we did it we fixed snv

WAIT HOLY SHIT

[next marlin]

I love to stay quiet all game as the psycho who was vigorkilled n2 and then instantly win in final 3

[lost thistle]

ATHEIST SYNERGY WITH PLAGUE DOCTOR PSYCHOPATH

“okay you have executed me. i will now play rock paper scissors”

[next marlin]

Ideal script

Playtests are open

[lost thistle]

okay part of me wants to run this now

[next marlin]

Hi guys I'm the Atheist and this is my Evil Twin

[lost thistle]

wait fuck the squid escaped i need to put it back

[next marlin]

Sects & Cocaine json

[tall raft]

6/21/24
New Balloonist might be coming soon
In one (non run-on) sentence, what are your full thoughts
The new Balloonist was said by Medway to be:
Each night, you learn a player of a different character type than last night. [+0 or +1 Outsider]

[lost thistle]

i think its a good change except for the arbitrary outsider modification aspect, which i absolutely despise

wait i thought that said “in one sentence” i cant read

honestly i like it more as “in one sentence” can we change the daily question to that

[fast anchor]

One sentence? I need one word

Outsider yeah no I can't judge this until I run it

[tall raft]

Optimistic Disappointment

[next marlin]

Arbitrary outsider count

[fast anchor]

…I said one character

whatever this is funny as shit

[next marlin]

I made the json and Script Checker gives it 73 warnings so you know it's good

[fast anchor]

Wait nvm new balloonist is broken as shit in a Vortox game

[next marlin]

You learn the demon for 6 nights

[fast anchor]

omw to either find all the minions or hard confirm every townsfolk

[next marlin]

Great counter to its unvortoxed equivalent, "you learn the Recluse for 6 nights"

[tall raft]

If you solve vortox you win the game and or find the recluse

Or shortened to
Kill the recluse

No matter what

The great thing is that you can learn the recluse every time in a vortox game too

[sly crescent]

it's bad in different ways than the old one - interesting sidegrade

[dense moat]

Gives 2 Townsfolk on and off as the “Minions”

But yeah, “learn all players of the same type in a few days”

[severe raven]

"Minimum 1 Outsider" would be better

[foggy grotto]

wait

if it doesn’t require you to see an outsider any more like it used to

why is there outsider mod at all

[flat lintel]

6/21: Thoughts on new balloonist?

Oh cat beat me to the same question

I straight up preferred the old one

I don’t personally mind the non confirmable outsider count

It’s a townsfolk that doesn’t need it

And also its so different it should have been its own thing

Its different enough where I see people running Old Balloonist and new one

[cursive cobalt]

It’s vestigial

And only exists for scriptbuilding

(Have I mention I hate new Balloonist yet)

[young sonnet]

[at least 1 outsider] is the solution I think

[flat lintel]

can we petition botc to split these characters up

[cloud plover]

What is this new balloonist I keep hearing

[flat lintel]

Look up Steven Medway’s twitter

[flat lintel]

Or this

[cloud plover]

Oh this

This is much better, but the outsider mod is kinda cringe

[ebon idol]

I like it a lot, it fixes a lot of the problems I had with balloonist, while maintaining true enough to the characters play style

[fast anchor]

it's a strong ability and [+1 Outsider] was an upside

[ebon idol]

Yeah I agree, the +1 outsider is actually really strong for the balloonist

[lost thistle]

i agree with the sentiment of [At Least One Outsider]

i think thats a perfect fix

[flat lintel]

nah, kazali mod was questionable

[young sonnet]

Kazali mod is an attempt to modulate the RNG inherent to the ability and shouldn't be seriously discussed in positive or negative senses

It doesn't really imply or mean anything in the large scale of things

[minor pier]

Kazali is necessary to make the setup valid, no matter what. Previous Balloonist mod was necessary for base 0 Outsider games. New Balloonist mod fills the same purpose, except tamer to avoid +1 in base 2 for an ability that's a bit less powerful when it works.

What I find interesting about the new Balloonist is the idea that you can be droisoned one night (thus possibly, or not, learning a character of the same type), and next night's info will continue using the previous droisoned name as reference. Meaning you can spot the break in the info chain, and try to find out its reason, without hampering future nights of info. It's still potent to spot bluffs/lies, but now it plays way better with various misinfo sources, including droison.

[tall raft]

RNG inherent?

Ohh kazali

100%

I thought you meant balloonist, that's my bad

[foggy grotto]

wait

this means balloonist can be on a script with poisoner

REJOICE

[flat lintel]

can snitch get a change next

[sly crescent]

where do i apply to ask tomorrow's question?

[sour harness]

You just ask it

Ideally wait until tomorrow

[valid garden]

[At least 1 Outsider] fails to solve the issue

It just fundamentally does not work as setup mod in any capacity

What you are saying is "You cannot put this character in a 0 outsider game" & to say that is to say "there is 1 less bluffable townsfolk for evil"

There is a reason we say 13 townsfolk on a script is non-negotiable

[tall raft]

Huh?

You'd just add a outsider

If it was base 0

to satisfy at least 1

And remove a townsfolk

[valid garden]

...I have misunderstood that setup affect this entire time and nobody thought to tell me

It did not occur to me that it could add an outsider

[flat lintel]

hope no europeans wake up before you do

[sour harness]

Yeah lol it's shorthand for [if there would otherwise be 0 outsiders, +1 outsider]

I agree that requiring it to exist otherwise sucks

[lost thistle]

yeah a better wording would be [There is at least one outsider]

but thats still. not a good wording

[sly crescent]

all of those are fine wording / shorthand. add an explanation in htr and ask players to rtfm i don't see the problem. whether it would be all that much better than +0/+1? slightly more fair to the good team on average, MUCH more fair in practice since 0 outsider games (with more than 5 players) are a myth anyway

[frail knoll]

After spending most of my day reading #experimental-chat , I have decided that

1. New Balloonist is good
2. New Balloonist does not need to be a new character
   The outsider mod is controversial obviously but I think it's a good change, idk what else to say on that
   As far as the differences with Old Balloon go, I honestly don't even think it's that different in functionality, mostly because I'll probably run New nearly identically to Old most of the time; if STs avoid showing the demon then it becomes meta'd that way and is too powerful, so imo it's in game's best interest to get the demon in Balloon pings most of the time. It's just Old Balloonist but much more resilient and flexible

The only way in which they inhibit different design spaces imo is the "bad info" => "busted" after a certain number of days, which I do actually think is neat. Like a TF reading "you learn which players are evil on Night 5" or something stupid like that would be cool. So I miss that aspect of Old Balloonist (bc it's unique, not inherently bc it's good) but otherwise I think New Balloonist is a flat improvement all around

[sly crescent]

6/22: what would be the funniest "fixing something that isn't broken" change to an experimental character? (bonus: also base 3 character)

[sour harness]

someone's salty

Magician: [+0 to +2 magicians]

Would be silly

[next marlin]

"Townsfolk abilities might yield false info"

[sour harness]

Nooooo

working even if dead

neighbors registering as the Drunk

having 3 lives instead of 2

[indigo osprey]

Vortox: sober and healthy townsfolk abilities yield false information.

[sour harness]

"if no-one died last night, you may choose 3 players"

[indigo osprey]

Mmm, funniesf

[sour harness]

I don't mind that but also I assume they found the real version was better via playtesting

[indigo osprey]

‘Each night, learn the player that should shut up’

[sour harness]

SH is just unfortunate

[sour harness]

Which character is this

[indigo osprey]

High priestess

[next marlin]

Sometimes that'd just make you send the HP to themself for 5 nights

[fast anchor]

jinx alchemist with vortox: "If the Alchemist's ability causes another player to learn information, it is falsified."

have fun not knowing who you're supposed to be harpy mad about

[sour harness]

Lol

[fast anchor]

just clarify the interaction in the stupidest way possible

[sour harness]

"I think I'm the only good player left in this game"

[next marlin]

(there are 8 alive)

[sour harness]

Harpy can target dead players, so they'd have to push on them too

[indigo osprey]

Legion: [no bluffs, evil doesn’t learn each other]

[sour harness]

each night, learn a sober & healthy good player

[sour harness]

Nooo

[next marlin]

VI: arbitrary number of VIs are drunk

[sour harness]

VI: arbitrary number of VIs in play, up to half are drunk

Apprentice: can also have outsider or demon abilities

whoever kills this player immediately dies

anyone who speaks immediately dies

travellers are drunk too

: can think they're another outsider

: can make players mad about being evil characters too (looking at you, goblin jinx)

: can act on any night

: learns which neighbor it is if it's a 1

Guys I'm so good at game design

: "might"

[devout quail]

: can no longer learn players who have the capacity to become the demon later in the game

they will one day release a demon that can give this knight a 0

[sour harness]

I mean on s&v it can already get a 0

Pithag

: twice per game

[next marlin]

unironically

[sour harness]

: could be +0 outsider

[next marlin]

I love to learn the Scarlet Woman and an Outsider in a Fang Gu game as both pings

[sour harness]

: now works like boomdandy where the player with the most fingers pointing at them dies instead of wins

: works if you were mad about being the goblin at some point this game

[next marlin]

Cerenovus in shambles

[sour harness]

[+1 minion]

[next marlin]

can only win as evil

[sour harness]

You'll find that this is especially with my new-and-(not)-improved cerenovus

[next marlin]

Once per game Cerenovus

But with [+0 to +2 Cerenovii]

[sour harness]

every player must be nominated every day

[next marlin]

Including the ST, just in case

[sour harness]

learning alive players

[next marlin]

I was once an evil Barista whose cerenovus tried to make me mad as the Barista and I was so disappointed when the ST turned that down as "not a good character"

[sour harness]

"only setup rules may be broken"

[sour harness]

I mean, it's not. But ur right that's funny

[sharp violet]

: Can only revive players that died at night

[sly crescent]

points for funny, but also actually a clarification AND pertains to Alchemist -> disqualified for being doubly broken 😜

[sour harness]

: players who have the psychopath ability and are also in a twin pair cannot target each other

[next marlin]

Suddenly considering the possibilities opened by twin alchemist-psychopath in a yagga game

[sly crescent]

definitely qualifies as a funny fix of not broken thing!
learns 0 in a Summoner game

[sharp violet]

That's when they make the Knight-Summoner jinx that's the same as the Clockmaker one

[sly crescent]

in a way this might as well be true 🙈

if someone is successfully mad as the Goblin - they don't get executed

[sour harness]

I started making a script for this, and then realized how much it sucked

[sly crescent]

this is funny to me because depending on script it might be pointless or genius

[sour harness]

I mean, if you're talking about meta sure, but that's not the ability

[sour harness]

makes a leviathan on night 5

Actually wait that's weak lol, town just executes you

Summoner leviathan is actually really funny tho I just noticed

[sly crescent]

ye like you wouldn't want to be able to delay it to n5 really because that's too many opportunities to get executed; but 2 nights of avoiding demon finders sounds great for Leviathan

[sour harness]

Town gets 4 executions tho

[sly crescent]

mhm assuming the game is large enough for missing couple demon candidates to not be a huge deal

[sour harness]

It's funny but really weak

They only have to skip d3, unless they have a confirmed evil bc they can just execute them (and they might have one by then)

[sly crescent]

it's still at least 40% info out the window; including all ysk. 12p game starting D3 turns into find the demon among 10 players in 3 days with only ongoing, i'm liking those odds?

[sour harness]

So basically it's script dependent

[sly crescent]

it's also not that at all, just wanting to turn things around with some fun after a day of tension. and maybe accidentally find out what people think are the most stable fine-working interactions

for funny base 3 i'm always thinking: Snake charmer, but no self-poisoning

[sour harness]

Oh nice

[sour harness]

Meh, the new sc is probably just gonna pick themself from now on, they just got themself a huge advantage

[pliant grail]

Ojo: each night, choose a player and a character. That player, if they match that character, dies; otherwise, change them to that character and st choose deaths

[sour harness]

You just make more ojo's that way lol

I love it

[sour harness]

(if you wanna kill a player not a character)

[pliant grail]

It becomes more or less pit hag + lil monsta except it allows for duplicates yeah

[lost thistle]

pit hag can now make multiple of the same character

oh wait experimental

okay

acrobat now kills one of its neighbors in addition to itself, if a neighbor is droisoned

[sly crescent]

is Acrobat not broken though 🤔

[dusky minnow]

23/06 - Which minecraft block would each BOTC character be?

[fast anchor]

Engineer - that new autocrafter block

[mild notch]

Farmer: tilled dirt

[sour harness]

obsidian

[sharp violet]

TNT

[cloud plover]

: Redstone Comparator

[dense moat]

: Cake (reasonably sure that's a block)

[sharp violet]

Librarian: Lectern

Fool: Yellow Glazed Terracotta

[cloud plover]

Saint: infested stone

[sharp violet]

Leviathan: Skulk Shrieker

[cursive cobalt]

Mathematician: Observer

[lost thistle]

Lil Monsta: Shulker Box

[rose vault]

Nah, the Lil Monsta would be the infested stone.

[lost thistle]

Lil Monsta is the Fletching Table because

[acoustic chasm]

Amnesiac - Command Block

Brewing Stand

[dusky minnow]

Also Brewing Stand

Cauldron

Bell

[acoustic chasm]

Blaze Spawner

[primal crescent]

based take

[foggy grotto]

Bedrock

[pliant grail]

24/06- which demons align with with mtg color combinations? (Relatively niche but also very interesting)

Zombuul is blue black , due to both traditional zombie colors and the trickery aspect of the character

[fast anchor]

#text-game-general is a step ahead of you 😉 #1241265567072124929

[pliant grail]

What
What channel is that it's just no access

[fast anchor]

you have NIText 🙂

[minor pier]

25/06 : Thoughts on the announced Harpy & Plague Doctor changes ?
(Harpy is now : "one or both might die", PD is now "gains a Minion ability" while still recommending a not in-play one if possible)

[sour harness]

I like the PD change bc it just makes sense on a lot of scripts, harpy is an interesting change tho

I think I'd need to see harpy in action to have an opinion on the change

[next marlin]

As a madness disliker, I find the Harpy change interesting from a "how optional is madness, really" perspective

Harpy madness was previously guaranteed to kill someone else along with yourself, which made it less optional

It now...might kill someone else

Not sure

[sour harness]

Might just kill them

[fast anchor]

I dislike the PD change, it makes it way more Outsidery

which, like, is fine

but the fun of PD for me is figuring out what you introduced and working to stop it/make it less awful

(and it's a fun part of bluffing it too)

agree with hystrex that I'd need to run a game with new harpy to have an opinion on it, it seems neat but unsure when it'd be applicable

[valid garden]

I like the PD change under the assumption that mechanically it didn't really change much

[flat lintel]

Wait, wasn’t that old harpy?

Also PD is more of an Outsider… not a bad change, as long as people build games with semi-loud -> loud minions.

Adding a PD-Poisoner

is unsolvable

[valid garden]

My main thought on Harpy?

[sour harness]

Harpy said "both might die"

You couldn't have only one die (unless one couldn't die or was already dead)

[sly crescent]

yea it had ambiguous wording but the interaction was either both or none

[valid garden]

"ITS "1", NOT "ONE", STEVEN! GET IT RIGHT!"

/lh

[sly crescent]

he he

changes are possibly making abilities stronger that didn't really need it.

Harpy getting the kill was 2 players storytellers might be having a hard time making the decision to kill on a break? the kills might be often obvious and help with solves, with flexibility it might lead to more effective use of the minion i get that. but it was ok originally i feel like

making PD more flexible is just mad hattering it. makes theoretical funny interactions easier because you instantly get 2 SW abilities possible from putting it on script, but that's about it. it was kinda fun that such a powerful ongoing problem had the potential to inform good team of something in return, now it's just gonna be a lesser saint

saint/barber/hatter one of those horrible if dies at bad time outsiders with no upside

[valid garden]

Sweetheart especially IMO

[sly crescent]

maybe i'm wrong and it's a little anti-pit-hag stab, so pit-hag can coexist with PD easier on a script, but i doubt that was the main concern

[fast anchor]

I mean anti pit-hag is what you really should be with characters like these 🙈

[sly crescent]

i believe sweetheart is a lesser outsider. their death doesn't undo information just makes new info harder to believe moving forward. PD can grant SW/Goblin ability or introduce an ability that makes it look like wrong type of minions were in play initially, it has more potential to do real damage

[pliant grail]

from a pure grammatical interpretation of the rules, "both might die" is the easiest way to, in shorthand, say that once madness is broken, the storyteller can now kill 0, 1, or 2 of the involved players. To better word it after steven's (previous) intent, it would have been better worded as "might both die"

[cursive cobalt]

agreed

[cursive cobalt]

I'd rather not have more Pacifists

[flat lintel]

wait how does this ruin the fun? @fast anchor

[flat lintel]

WAIT WHAT!

[tall raft]

I don't like the PD change

Harpy is fine I guess?

[flat lintel]

im trying to understand why people dislike the change tho

is it bc it used to be out of play?

[dense moat]

You mean things where the ST has unnecessary room to make poor decisions?

[cursive cobalt]

Yes.

[cursive cobalt]

• Having multiple of the same Minion ability in a game, permanently speaking, is extremely jank and can heavily interfere with solves and obscure whether said Minion has died, both of which are aspects of harmfulness that the PD shouldn't have to account for when solving for their ability as it extends their interference influence outside of intended boundaries.
• As mentioned above, this turns a fair puzzle into something far more unfair by taking away the elimination aspect of the PD ability and basically turning it into "+1 Minion, can be anything, have fun". It limits interactibility and the PD themselves less of a puzzle-centric role ("what is my ability doing? what is it? well we know it has to be new, so i'll be on the lookout for a new Minion tell!") and more of a "my ability can be doing anything right now; there might not be any new Minion tells, just an invisible old one that matches perfectly with a pre-existing one, oh well. Better just roll with the punches".
• A Minion ability is far more harmful than almost any other Outsider effect produced by on-death Outsiders. Do we really need to make it even more devastating to deal with?

These are just my thoughts.

[cursive cobalt]

Mad Hatter is a great comparison.

[flat lintel]

mad hatter is like the most damaging outsider

[cursive cobalt]

I dislike Mad Hatter for roughly the same reasons as I've listed above, but also slap on the "it makes Barber redundant" point.

[flat lintel]

plague doctor depending on the script is a cold 2nd

[cursive cobalt]

PD with Poisoner is hell

Then again
Poisoner is hell

But at least with Poisoner you have a player who you can fool

With a Poisoner Plague, the ST just does whatever and the good team gets fucked

[flat lintel]

yeah poisoner plague is pretty bad

[cursive cobalt]

Most other Minion abilities are fair

Madness ones pair well with it

Some (and I do mean some) of the jinxed ones pair decently with it

And most others are just eh

[sour harness]

I never really liked plague doctor

I've only ever seen one script where I thought "hey PD is actually a good fit here"

[cursive cobalt]

I liked PD in concept
I liked it less in practice
And now I don't like it at all

The Harpy change is fine
Probably
Idk

I'll have to see it in action, but I don't think it changes much, just adds flexibility (and unlike PD, it's not an Outsider who's ability is completely ST-driven, so its a lot more fine in that department.)

[sour harness]

I think that's the consensus on harpy lol, including the "probably, idk"

[cursive cobalt]

What would that script be

[sour harness]

Oh I forget, I'd have to go find it

But all the minions on the script were very fitting as PD abilities in context

[cursive cobalt]

PD is very similiar to Alchemist

Cool concept
Meh execution

[sour harness]

Yeah definitely

[cursive cobalt]

They're jank for the same reasons

They try to generalize Minion abilities

[sour harness]

You'll be shocked to learn that I also don't like alchemist

LM works because it straight up adds another minion who's a minion in every way, instead of just the ability

[cursive cobalt]

At this point

I think its pretty clear Steven much prefers "Pacifist" designs over more concrete ones

So unfortunately I see these sorts of changes becoming the norm

[fast anchor]

oops all alchemists?

[indigo osprey]

I understand the criticisms of (new) plaguedoctor, but bear in mind that the storyteller still ought to use a not in play minion ability.

That said, I think new plague doctor can open some funny interactions: double psychopath or double vizier to name 2 can be interesting/funny.

I have a script where plague doctor/poisoner is possible, and, to be honest, the one time I took plague doctor/poisoner as storyteller, I used it twice on good characters and once on an evil character. I always tell my players that the storyteller getting a minion ability should be about the powerlevel/effect of sweetheart. The storyteller is not evil and you shouldn't expect that the storyteller will maximize the damage with the plague doctor ability to damage good.

(The other options are: pithag, organ grinder, scarlet woman and widow)

[next marlin]

you shouldn't expect that the storyteller will maximize the damage with the plague doctor ability to damage goodAs someone who was once plague-doctor-cerelocked for most of a game, completely unable to get out my Dreamer info that caught the demon on night 1, and got tunnelled on by everyone (because I reasonably assumed the guy I dreamt as [role he wasn't claiming]/Cerenovus was the Cerenovus, without realizing my resulting "VI" info was incompatible with the shugenja direction) and executed by overwhelming acclaim in f3, I'd like more STs to realize this

It wasn't very fun

Double Psychopath is funny though

[indigo osprey]

You are free to tell your ST with my blessing that Plague Doctor shouldn't be used to maximize the damage against good. The plague doctor is not 'when you die +1 evil minion with perfect information'.

[sour harness]

"I nominate the storyteller to play rock paper scissors"
"Sorry no atheist on script"

[cursive cobalt]

I agree with this, but I still feel that the possibility of gaining something in play makes it so that either you need a metagame in place to prevent abuse (ie: just use old PD) or it becomes unfun.

[cursive cobalt]

Sounds like a bad ST

[indigo osprey]

Fun fact: plaguedoctor taking widow is basically sweetheart that announces itself to one player

[sour harness]

Yes and I think that's pretty cool especially because it can be bluffed in many cases

[cursive cobalt]

Another reason I dislike the PD almanac

By the way

[sweet birch]

🤢

[acoustic chasm]

That is not ideal

[flat lintel]

What does this have to do with plague doctor vs it having to do with cerenovus?

[flat lintel]

This is cool and all, but Poisoner is untrackable without Math/savant/artist in play. Like I would be upset if the STs idea of balancing a game was creating a Poisoner who could be in play, or couldn't be in play to hurt the FT Demon Yes or something.

[flat lintel]

which is perfect imo because something to track the effect

and you know poison is on one person

[dense moat]

I mean, you could also just tell the PD themselves and then make it identical to Sweetheart

But some Minions are more damaging than that (EX: Poisoner)

Like a Poisoner Plauge Doctor aimed at helping evil can make a game basically unsolvable

[sly crescent]

nah u just meta the storyteller then. that's part of the game design right?

[next marlin]

I do not enjoy madness, no
The PD concern specifically is the ST having perfect knowledge of the game state and some STs interpreting this as "target players far better than a normal minion player would usually do" rather than "balance at a level intentionally weaker than an optimal minion ability use"

I have no shortage of mechanical and gameplay problems with the Cerenovus but others like it

(and it's the single coolest character in the game aesthetically so I can forgive a lot)

[sly crescent]

the process doesn't have to be that conscious and cunning. a Minion may choose players and in case of Cerenovus madness based on false information gathered or randomly, ending up with poisoned Ravenkeeper on the wrong night, Clockmaker mad as the Mutant not doing much harm (who knows though); storyteller won't be thinking about any of that and just use balance/bias thinking to make either useful for evil or useless for evil choice. the result might be the same but i don't think "i want to use this ability better than a Minion would" is what's happening usually

[acoustic chasm]

Cere is fine

I do think ST given cere should be funny rather than optimal

[dense moat]

6/27: Who is the youngest character of each character type and how old do you headcannon them as? (mostly for Outsider and Minion, cause TF and Demon are obvious)

[flat lintel]

for tf? unless im missing smth right?
for demon ofc

[dense moat]

Yeah. I’m mostly asking about Outsiders and Minions tbh

[indigo osprey]

outsider: moonchild

minion: evil twin

[flat lintel]

but that doesn’t mean its a young twin

[indigo osprey]

not n ecessarily

[flat lintel]

i can see being a boss baby type of thing

[indigo osprey]

but I can imagine age 12 one being an absolute belitterant and one being a sweet one

townsfolk: flowergirl

no?

[dense moat]

Steward is canonically 9 years old. Any younger TF has to be imagined based on that knowledge

[indigo osprey]

Well, the flowergirl from the fairytale, I believe, is younger than 9

[dense moat]

What fairytale are you talking about?

[indigo osprey]

it's not a flowergirl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Match_Girl

that's the one

[dense moat]

I’m pretty sure Flowergirl refers to an old term for an herbalist or florist. Making her a young adult and not like a child at a wedding or something

[indigo osprey]

"how old do you headcannon them as"

I have the impression you are answering a different question

a fair interpretation to be sure

but the question wasn't 'what is the youngest canonically'

Even though, I just noticed, you asked the question, haha

[dense moat]

I was asking about the headcannon thing for a bit of flair. I added it because Steward has a canon age and Lil Monsta is realistically the youngest canon

The greater point was “Which Outsider and Minion do you think are the youngest?”

But I did say headcannon & you are welcome to read Flowergirl as younger, even if I don’t agree with your perspective

[indigo osprey]

It's just how I imagined it: an innocent young child able to find the demon. I am not sure, but when I was young, I was sometimes at places where very young children are trying to sell (basically begging) flowers - very sad situations, to be sure - and tht's what it reminded me of

but anyway

outsider: moonchild and demon evil twin would be my answers

all the other demons actively require adult minds, I think

evil twins I can imagine 2 12 year olds, one that is evil and one that is not

[cloud plover]

what???

[sly crescent]

yeah that's interesting i didn't expect townsfolk to have any obvious candidates

obvious wrong for sure because you need to be able to do a thing to be considered a thing-doer like tea lady, but Choirboy could be anywhere 4-120 and Virgin's lower bound is hard to point out.

[sly crescent]

if i'm honest Choirboy (12), Moonchild (13), Goblin (unclear, but adult at younger age because different lifespan) and Imp (age 0 because these spawn equivalent to human adult)

some things are magic 🤷

[dense moat]

"How DARE you accuse Her Ladyship of wrongdoing? I’ve known her my entire life! All nine years!" - Steward flavor text

[cloud plover]

Oh wow

[sly crescent]

ye i don't absorb the flavor lore either like i guess it's correct but i like to headcanon most townsfolk as "old enough" it's easier to kill them. because they would be taller so there's more to stab

[sharp violet]

I was going to say Choirboy (I headcanon them as 10) but now that I know Steward's canon age that doesn't work

[sweet birch]

Flowergirl is like 5 years old
The klutz is a tweenager
The goblin is also a toddler but he's a little shit
And obviously LM is a baby

I know "flowergirl" means "herbalist" but I find "wedding child" to be cuter so I'm keeping it

[lost thistle]

okay everyone

like everything else about lil monsta,

[cloud plover]

I know this was supposed to be for “clocktower as it is,” but now I can’t stop thinking of a “baby looneytunes” style spinoff of clocktowers where all the roles are bumbling children in low stakes situations

[dense laurel]

Extremely early Alsaahir Script (It is not on the tool yet but consider it on this script)

[lost thistle]

psycho ET alsaar is 🤔

[dense laurel]

wait that was not meant to go here, lmao

[sour harness]

ET is fine I think

Strong for alsaahir but ultimately I think it's fine

[dense laurel]

Could probably add a hatter or smth to mitigate that to an extent

[pliant grail]

weird that makes me think of a happy tree friends type situation where all the roles are bumbling children but the demon is still killing, extremely gruesomely

[flat lintel]

I think its still a dont though

psycho AS is 🥴

[next marlin]

My association with "flowergirl" as a concept is flowergirls at weddings, who tend to be young children, so I parse the Flowergirl as a child intuitively (probably <9)

The Flowergirl and Evil Twin both being "creepy child"-type characters fits with the weird haunted carnival vibe of SnV

(Po is also creepy-child-archetype but it's a demon so that's more of like...a possession/taking the physical form of a child thing)

In practice I parse the characters as adults, even with the implication of Steward being a child

Moonchild being parsed as very young is...interesting in a very literal sense, but not something I consciously think of

[sly crescent]

when they make MtG+BotC combo that's one of the subtypes for sure

[cursive cobalt]

for Townsfolk (a youngster raised to serve nobility)
for Outsiders (a celestial being resembling a child, but retaining an eerie amount of wisdom for their age)
for Minion (they think they're around the age of a young adult, but in reality their creation was mere months ago)
for Demon (obviously)

[cursive cobalt]

I've always headcanoned as just a florist

Since Flowergirl is an anachronistic term for that

It fits better with the flavor

[fast anchor]

the real question is which is younger between and imo

[cursive cobalt]

I'd say

seems around tween ages

is still in primary school

[fast anchor]

just looked it up, most choir-boys tend to be around 9-13

so yeah, steward is probably younger

just on average

[dense moat]

Steward is 9, so I guess that gives her the edge

[craggy heath]

I've thought about doing something like this

[fast anchor]

28/6: A day late for this one, but what are your thoughts on the new character, the Alsaahir?

[craggy heath]

annoyed the name isn't a verb

[pliant grail]

interesting design space. it's really just everyday juggler slayer honestly, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. also a sigh for more shenanigans.
As I try to build a script to feature it it kinda feels like it begs to be stormcaught, but that's probably only because... i'm trying to build a script to feature it. Just like snake charmer, though, it kinda feels like it is useless until it drastically effects the game, which is maybe my one mechanical complaint

[tall raft]

There's no -
Which I have heard was an issue
Also it's not 100% the ___
So you aren't saying the the ___
For Mechanics I like it but it seems kinda hard to fit places
Good in high info scripts

[cursive cobalt]

It’s one of the Townsfolk of all time

I’m neutral on it

I don’t particularly like or dislike it, it just exists

[sour harness]

YES someone agrees

[sour harness]

It really is

It's so incredibly okay

No notes

Its name not giving us an easy verb to use when using its ability is my biggest complaint with it

[fiery finch]

I imagine moonchild being more of a religious thing, rather than being a literal child (especially given stereotypes regarding the old name that we don’t need to talk about). I imagine that the moonchild is an adult worships the moon

[sour harness]

(though I don't like the names of most botc characters, I think that's been established though)