secret thing

[sour harness]

Also this is a subjective thing, it's harmful to portray it as objective even if you don't mean to

[flat lintel]

like seriously, don't let 4 people be the demon in one game

[young sonnet]

Unless it's actually trackable like imp star passes

[flat lintel]

oh yeah

there's a reason why for demon protection to happen someone has to die (, , , ) or have to be saved by execution which is a red flag (aka or )

[young sonnet]

Although yes it's subjective, I think a majority of scripts people run chaos hatter on are not scripts that should do that, refreshing Mez, assassin, etc. is no bueno. Trading a dead cerenovus to an alive harpy is fine, but that's rarely the script design

[flat lintel]

I think is fine in a BMR like script as long as you can ensure the isn't dying late and causing a loss

actually no

its basically impossible

[sour harness]

Yes, but notice that the phrase "I think" is doing a lot of work here

A lot of people (especially in game design circles beyond botc) present their opinions as fact without even realizing it and it can be really harmful

I'm not mad at anyone and mistakes do happen, but I wanna help people avoid that in the future

[young sonnet]

Except it's not. It's only harmful to fake creatives. Real artists don't clarify everything with an "I think" and don't get offended when it's not included; it's implicit in the discussion. Artists know this. The marketplace of ideas is not damaged by people who are confident in their opinions, and doesn't need to be bogged down by fluff
I know you're not mad and neither am I, but the recent online narrative of needing to preface every opinion by clarifying it's opinion when it should be obvious (they teach it in elementary literature class) has really been holding back digital discussion

[indigo osprey]

It’s good to distinguish claims of facts from opinions, actually

Chaoshatter works on scripts where town probablt needs to kill the entire evil team anyway

Imi

[flat lintel]

Still, even so, it still really sucks for Good

[indigo osprey]

I have chaos hatter on a script with lil monsta, scarlet woman and a bunch of characters that detect evil pings, rather than minion/demon (think empath, lycantrope, bounty hunter, etc.) ; chaos hatter 'works' there because good can't differentiate their pings between demon/minion anyway so it works (we haven't detected any glaring imbalance issues and the script is about 50/50 win rate now)

but I agree, you need to be careful with it

[foggy grotto]

if you use the mad hatter rule it’s just barber+

[sour harness]

If you're right then game design is just behind lol

[indigo osprey]

Mad hatter can't nerf townsfolk as directly as barber, so mad hatter can do a lot what barber can, but not everything (so it's not strictly better)

[foggy grotto]

yeah fair

although barber swapping the dead barber with a townsfolk can create a confirmation chain

[indigo osprey]

that's true, and it's not a strong thing to do

in most (but not all) cases, mad hatter is stronger than barber

but I think (and I don't think this is that controversial) there are also stronger and weaker townsfolk roles, so some scrips mad hatter would be too strong and some scripts it's more balanced/oke

I have the (imo not very radical view) that it's up to the script designer to design a script with either mad hatter or regulat hatter in their mind and different scripts can accomodate different kinds

[cursive cobalt]

Mad Hatter can work if the good team is stacked enough to accommodate it

I prefer not using such trivial means of balance though

Since it just feels powercreepy to me

[indigo osprey]

I mean; it's not like one script is fighting another script

balance has to be judged within the confines of a script, and some characters are stronger on some scripts than on others; that's part of the fun imo

[young sonnet]

For some reason discord won't let me react to this message so I'm just gonna say ^^^^^^^

[acoustic chasm]

I don't think powercreep really matters

depends what you're going for

[sour harness]

5/3: which character type (or if you feel like it, specific character) are you the best at playing? Which are you the worst at?

I think I'm pretty good at playing minion but I throw too many games as demon

[acoustic chasm]

I'm pretty good at townsfolk, but in my group that either leads me to being framed because I am untrustworthy, or dying early

I think I am worst at minion right now. I can play independently, but I am beginning to figure out how teamwork is so great if you're evil

And me being scared to being linked to demons can get in the way of plans

[sour harness]

This is why sometimes on day 1 I immediately choose an arbitrary player and go to talk to them. It's usually not the demon :)

(regardless of my role)

[young sonnet]

Yeah that's what I do too

And if I haven't talked to someone day 1 in a while I make an attempt to be one of the first or second people to talk to them

I think I'm the best at playing townsfolk (I'm the )

Jokes aside I think I'm probably best at playing minion, I'm really good at slowly drawing suspicion away from my demon onto me

[dense moat]

I’m probably best at playing Minion. I know most of the game state, but am not responsible for my teams win or loss. If anything, Im usually pretty good at getting myself killed

Worst: Demon. I am horrid at defending myself and leading my team. I can’t build worlds well enough to protect myself most times, which is why I prefer basically every other role. So that I can get executed without losing for my team

[cursive cobalt]

Ranked in order: Minion, Townsfolk, Demon, Outsider

In terms of specific Townsfolk

I have a history of sucking at bait

But Im good at utilizing most other abilities

Shoutout goes to the Slayer though, I’ve actually hit a Demon more times than I’ve missed

Actually

[cursive cobalt]

Swap Demon and Townsfolk

I’ve been told that I’m a scary opponent to face when evil

And while I’m forced to play more on the safe side as a Demon, that’s the only real change from my normal evil play

[sour harness]

For me it's probably minion townsfolk outsider demon

But I have a track record of basically never being an outsider so idrk

I think when I DON'T throw as demon I'm pretty good at it. I'm just very prone to throwing

All or nothing type of deal

I remember one time I played 2 games in a row: lleech of distrust then s&v. I pulled lleech in the first game, chose the player who I thought would gain the most trust, and all they did was talk to the slayer and said "well whoever the lleech is probably chose me" and I lost before nominations. In s&v I pulled no dashii and we completely swept, I don't think I was a demon candidates from most players' perspectives

[foggy grotto]

#1 Minion because i’m always the frame
#2 demon because i’m never the frame
#3 townsfolk because i always misinterpret my info and tunnel on the obvious frame
#4 outsider because i don’t have any info and i just go on socials, thus going for the frame

[indigo osprey]

I have a 100% winrate as evil since summer last year… so minion for sure; everything else is about the same

[vale oxide]

Good at playing minion like 80 percent of the time

Pretty aight at hiding as an Outsider if needed

Bad at playing TF because I always tunnel on a specific world which makes sense with my info

Usually bad at being the demon because I have very bad socials and I either get executed day 1 or in f3

Overall I kinda suck at the game in general 🙃 it's fun tho

[rose vault]

My friends have a "BotC Bingo" board. 2 of the tiles are "The Demon is an Imp" and "The script has an Empath (seriously, why do we keep using it?)"

[foggy grotto]

5/4 I did a “what’s the strongest character of each type” earlier, now what do you guys think is the WEAKEST character of each type and why? For outsider, idk, just like, what outsider does the least and is most useless

Townsfolk: I like running Patters Huntsman because it makes the character actually viable but in its current state it’s useless. It adds an insta-lose outsider, sometimes being +1 outsider, and it only gets one guess for the entire game.

Outsider: This is a weird one, but I feel like sweethearts always die when most TF abilities have been used, or they’re very public about their role on death and the new drunk can be found pretty easily. It’s objectively weaker than drunk or PM and it’s easier to track as well as doing less damage on average.

Minion: In customs, it’s abysmally weak as MM days are always super easy to track, but even in BMR the worst thing it does is create minor paranoia and results in occasional double tapping. It’s become such a meta to double tap in a no death night that MM wins are almost never seen, and the only time it does win is on D2 or 3 when the demon randomly gets killed and then MM procs, which isn’t super fun for either team.

Demon: Poor Pukka. I tried to think of weaker demons, but there just are none. Its victims have double the opportunity to be protected, if their victim is executed then there will be an absence of kills, often tipping off players what demon it is on customs, as long as it’s on script it is usually easy to trace pukka poison and thus solve worlds around it, but imo most importantly the delay in the kills makes it hard to work in with current worldbuilding. Someone was a relatively trusted player the night you poisoned them but became an ideal frame the next day? too late! You just found out the person claiming YSK was actually a powerful each night? Now you gotta wait 2 nights to kill them! Pukka seems good on paper, and it’s still possible to win as it, but imo it is by far the weakest demon

would love to hear others opinions on this!

[warped fog]

for Sweetheart, it isn't objectively worse than Drunk because Drunk is 1 Outsider with drunk info while Sweetheart is 1 Outsider who turns 1 Townsfolk into getting drunk info on death

[foggy grotto]

fair nuff

[warped fog]

as for Puzzlemaster, Puzzlemaster balances being objectively stronger than Drunk by learning the Demon if they solve it

[foggy grotto]

objectively worse PM

[warped fog]

sweetheart does not get to learn the demon if they find their drunk, sadly

as for demons I can see an argument for pukka, but doesn't even get to kill without being public about it

[spiral pollen]

Townsfolk: Like huntsman, incredibly high potential pay off with a very low floor, however cult leader sees their thing pay off far less than huntsman ime, and adding an extra evil in the game is not ok.
Outsider: Never played or ran an acrobat game where town doesn't get loads of useful info from it.
Minion: A weird choice and it can be incredibly powerful on a high kill script, especially with alhad, but on any monokill scripts it ends up being a hinderence to evil ime.
Demon: yeah its pukka for same reasons as above, sorry pukka

[foggy grotto]

haven’t played many psycho games, why is psycho a hinderance to evil on monokill?

[spiral pollen]

You're outed evil for 1 and you just end up removing demon candidates in a very public way, not to mention going for a psycho execution is reasonable day 1 and if they hit the 1 in 3 you just don't get to play the game

[foggy grotto]

fair nuff

[spiral pollen]

On high kill scripts executing the psychopath isn't close to worth it

Temp's gonna say vizier for minion but I think vizier gets a lot more mileage out

On balance

[warped fog]

this question is a lot harder for me to answer than I initially thought it would be

[spiral pollen]

I will say pukka is actually quite strong on BMR but on customs it just crumbles

Although even on BMR pukka can get screwed with an unlucky night 1 snipe

[cursive cobalt]

Townsfolk: A once per game ability that works on exactly one out of however many players, can be baited out by minions by doing the simplest shit in the world, doesn't win the game immediately (I know this might be an unfair metric, but the only other comparatively precise OPG does)? The issue here is: in order for a to succeed, a has to shoulder the risk of outing to a Minion. Oh, and this isnt even factoring in the potential for Storyteller abuse (something I don't usually hold against a role, but still)...

Outsider: would be the easy way out-- its a Townsfolk in all but name. However, is a very close contender. What you said is accurate: I rarely see a have any impact at all, especially on its home script where most information good gets is flushed out very quickly. Plus, compare it to other on death Outsiders, and one drunk player is really just a slap on the wrist.

Minion: , so, so, much. I would rather have ANY minion on my team. Hell, I would rather have a vanilla Minion on my team. The does nothing if your group is ever so competent at keeping hands in their pockets, yet it gives good the massive boon of knowing exactly where a Minion is and forcing them to isolate from their own team. Evil loses the possibility of doing any social plays not involving the Vizier. It's not even funny; it's just sad.

Demon: . Strips itself of all Minion utilities in exchange for giving good triple the killpower it itself has. Any 1f1s are resolved immediately and result in dead . And when you let town talk it out until D3, eliminating any suspects they please beforehand... yeah, no wonder it needs Alch-Mario to win games.

[warped fog]

if became how it works usually, by what level do you think that would improve it?

[spiral pollen]

Easy read

[cursive cobalt]

Still weak. Less so.

Around FM levels I'd say

[spiral pollen]

Riot is fair

No built in misinfo

no minion abilities

[cursive cobalt]

I forgot existed.

Change my answer to

Well

No actually, is more helpful than

So it wouldnt be fair

I'll measure Outsiders based on ones that are actually harmful

[warped fog]

Golem not being able to nominate can be pretty bad if evil plays their cards right

[signal holly]

honestly i think acrobat is better for good than golem on most scripts

[cursive cobalt]

Counterpoint: F4 is now F3

Also, that logic goes out the window when the Golem just crushes a Minion's skull in

[warped fog]

fair :P

just inverse Slayer at that point

[cursive cobalt]

I do think its really sad how the only remotely playable script needs to function.

[warped fog]

alch marionette-

[cursive cobalt]

Just a testament to how bad the Demon is.

[warped fog]

okay.

I do agree is really really really weak

idk why people are saying is weaker in comparison

[cursive cobalt]

Also I would put below in terms of the harm it does to good, but like and that seems like an unfair metric

[warped fog]

what if sweetheart made 2 players drunk

now it's more destructive than

[cursive cobalt]

would be my choice for B3

Either that or

[indigo osprey]

Riot is just a different game

[cursive cobalt]

Because crumbles to dust whenever its faced with even the slightest bit of confirmation

[indigo osprey]

Riot is like turning chess into checkers; it's a completely different game by all metrics

[cursive cobalt]

The only reason it works on BMR is because most of the confirmation there either nets it kills (execution testing) or produces extra ones (gossip/gambler pseudoinfo)

Like

Put Zombuul in a game with Professor

Or Chambermaid

or hell, even a competent Gambler

And you can just feel the suffering

Theres a reason it very rarely works on any "traditional" scripts

It simply does not have the capability to counter high-confirmation roles like Empaths Dreamers Savants and FTs

I would place below when it comes to overall strength, but on their home script, is weaker

[dense moat]

Interestingly, Sweetheart is basically the only non Townsfolk role to do poison AFTER N1. So if you have YSK roles or OPG like Seamstress, it may not even have targets

[indigo osprey]

"Each night*, choose a player: they die. If non-one died today, townsfolk don't die. The 1st time you die, you live but register as dead."

Fixed zombuul

[cursive cobalt]

The amount of times where a SH has died midway through an SnV game and I have had literally no valid targets for it are too much to count

[warped fog]

Zombuul is only strong as a possibility for a Po or something to fake so good is executing corpses while the po loads their machine gun for the second it hits 5p

[warped fog]

TRUE

[cursive cobalt]

Well yeah, it suffers from its fair share of Mastermind Syndrome

Those roles tend to be considered super weak

[dense moat]

Oh and this isn’t a validity issue, but on its home scripts, Sweetheart can only hit Snake Charmer in a Vortox game

[cursive cobalt]

mhm

[cursive cobalt]

don't die to this ability I presume

[indigo osprey]

yes, but seemed superfluous, but yes

[dense moat]

It’s not. Otherwise it blocks Gambler and stuff

[cursive cobalt]

"Each night*, choose a player: they die unless they are a Townsfolk and no-one died today. The 1rst time you die, you live but register as dead."

[warped fog]

and a Philo if they're unspent for some reason by then I guess

[cursive cobalt]

The programmer inside of me disagrees, but thats just semantics

[warped fog]

if a permadroisoned Philo "gains an ability" in Vortox can you give them true info since they're still just a Philosopher

or is that not valid because Philo is a Townsfolk

[cursive cobalt]

No, you can't
They're getting info from their droisoned Philo ability; even though they don't have the ability that they think they're getting the info from, that source is still their spent Philo ability

And thereby must be Vortoxed

[indigo osprey]

no reason to think like a programmer in botc character descriptions, really, a lot of characters don't literally work as written

[cursive cobalt]

Okay but the way you wrote it actually confused me a little because you phrased it as a separate clause

And those are usually evaluated separately from whatever kill mechanic the Demon uses

Either way, im not sure if this fixes Zombuul

[warped fog]

the implication is obvious tbf

but fair

[cursive cobalt]

Allowing it to kill non-Townsfolk on no death nights seems like a strange precedent that probably needs playtesting

[indigo osprey]

zombuul's limited killing power is the main issue; almost 'forcing' godfather/assassin as minions when it's a zombuu game

[cursive cobalt]

Fair

[warped fog]

well it's "forced" because nobody wants the legendary quadruple tap that DA/mastermind/zombuul can force

[indigo osprey]

if that killing power could be buffed without nerfing town, e.g. by making it so that i can kill people bad(ish) for town, that could solve a lot

[foggy grotto]

also even if Philo wasn’t a TF, vortox says that townsfolk ABILITIES yield false info, and philos who pick a townsfolk have the ability of that TF

[indigo osprey]

I have had a 3 hour mastermind, zombuul, da game, where we tripled tapped fool, mastermind and assassin and the exorcist repeatedely hit the zombuul

glorious

[cursive cobalt]

I remember on Off Meta, there was a SH rework suggested

[indigo osprey]

anyway; it's not just the length of the game, it's also the certainty of knowing it's zombuul

[foggy grotto]

DA zombuul is fine imo

but yeah MM zombuul is sad

[cursive cobalt]

"If you die, one new player is drunk until dusk every night from now on."

[warped fog]

an extremely patient Po can also just nuke everyone from the face of the planet in the middle of a "Zombuul" game

[cursive cobalt]

Basically turn it into a "ST gains Poisoner ability but cant spam poison" type of situation

[spiral pollen]

or the vortox

[cursive cobalt]

@atomic thorn moment

[warped fog]

I believe it was akip doing that that put the idea in my head

[cursive cobalt]

DA Zombuul is a very positive interaction

It gives evil counterplay against the Zombuul's biggest weakness

[warped fog]

just don't also have a Mastermind in that game

[cursive cobalt]

Go contact Zets and he'll pull out his three-paragraph long explaination to why its on his script

[young sonnet]

^^^^^

[warped fog]

turning a Townsfolk into a Drunk for the sake of balancing Riot is sad but fair

[cursive cobalt]

I don't agree with it obviously

But it is what it is

Not like I'm ever going to play Chaos in the Streets

[indigo osprey]

alchemist marionette is a great interaction

a drunk that is always sitting next to the demon is amazing

[warped fog]

I took a look at Riot and decided I wanted to make a similar timer demon with the idea that everything is normal at first but everything devolves into chaos on the final day

[indigo osprey]

'my info doesn't work; kill my neighbors please'

[cursive cobalt]

...and then, as it turns out, you're the real Marionette.

See the issue here?

[warped fog]

this is what I got out of it

[indigo osprey]

there is no issue; talk to your neighbor about this before you out

[warped fog]

yeah you'll be the real marionette in a Riot game

[indigo osprey]

or, alternatively, put it on a script with loud minions

[cursive cobalt]

What's stopping the Demon from telling the Alch Mario they're a real Mario

[warped fog]

(also, part of Mario's ability is that "the Demon knows who you are")

[indigo osprey]

nothing, it's on you to find out if that's true

[cursive cobalt]

You learn nothing from this interaction then

Bruh

[indigo osprey]

like, temporary is listen positive points as negatives

[cursive cobalt]

Also theres never going to be one surefire way to determine you're the Marionette

A script is going to have droison

How do you distinguish it then

[indigo osprey]

if the minions are:cerenovus, harpy, psychopath and marionette; it's not that difficult to know if you are the marionette or the alchemist marionette

[cursive cobalt]

The fact that you have to contrive such a specific situation for this role to work really does speak out on its inflexibility

[warped fog]

which would imply that the Demon learns the alch mario as just the mario. this is pretty obvious, but can be bad if is on the script

[cursive cobalt]

Of course you can contrive a situation where any role is good

if I wanted to

i could probably make a script where Huntsman is the most OP Townsfolk

Doesn't mean its good

[indigo osprey]

you can tell a magician that is sitting next to the demon that they are the marionette to the demon supergd

[indigo osprey]

i'll take that bet; how much you want to put on it?

[cursive cobalt]

If I win you have to play in a game where I run the script 😈

[warped fog]

actually, I forgot, is the Marionette specifically listed out as a Minion on top of the Demon seeing "this player is: marionette" or is it like minion info

[cursive cobalt]

shrug

i dont think they are

[warped fog]

it usually doesn't matter

[indigo osprey]

it's both

[cursive cobalt]

i think the demon learns them separately

[warped fog]

but if alchemist, magician and marionette are on the script

[indigo osprey]

you show a demon all minions, including the magician

[warped fog]

then

[indigo osprey]

and then you say 'X (neighbor) is your marionette'

[warped fog]

it does

[young sonnet]

Yeah it's like, on BMR, no night deaths after killing an executee means zombuul, minstrel day, mastermind day, that player was pukka poisoned, Po is charging, courtier drunked the demon, demon was exorcised, demon hit protected players, or demon intentionally sunk
They only work on BMR cause you have a bunch of good players who might mistake their own ability as being the reason why something happened
Other custom scripts just be throwing zombuul on without, at the very minimum, pukka and thinking it's okay, when really all that happens is either demons pretend to be zombuul (very ineffective as town just gets more free info) or, more commonly, zombuul is just outed immediately

[indigo osprey]

but if X is the magician

you can tell them they are your marionette, even though they aren't

[warped fog]

ah because that's within the realm of "the Demon thinks you are a Minion"

[indigo osprey]

indeed

marionette is a minion, so you can tell that the magician is the marionette

[warped fog]

if not for the Spy/Magician jinx, could you have shown the Magician as a Demon to the Spy

[indigo osprey]

even though they aren't

yes

anyway; marionette-alchemist is an interesting interaction that gives solid information to the alchemist if they can discover it

but yes, don't toss it on a script with several sources of droison

that's why it works on zets riot's script

and why it can work on other scripts, provided some parameters

[warped fog]

y'know what would be funny

tell the Demon they have a marionette on both sides

[indigo osprey]

which is legal, yes

[young sonnet]

^^^

[indigo osprey]

but that outs that the other minion is 100% a real minion

so not ideal

[young sonnet]

Like Temporary never responded this

[cursive cobalt]

I was more referring to Alch Mario in general

[indigo osprey]

good start; we need 7 more tf, 2 more outsiders, 2 more minions and 3 more demons

[cursive cobalt]

Never specified it needed to be a full script

[indigo osprey]

and I would argue that virgin is the strongest on this script :p

[warped fog]

to be fair it comes at a hefty cost in levi but consiering it's teensy it could be?

[cursive cobalt]

actually

[indigo osprey]

as soon as virgin procs, they game is over for evil

[cursive cobalt]

fixed

Now Huntsman can only be in play with Vizier

Meaning that it'll have a much better chance at sniping any Damsel

It can also add a Damsel in a Heretic game, being of great use

As its the only confirmation on the script

Therefore: It is the most useful Townsfolk

Also Widow can't exist in 6p.

[young sonnet]

But then the whole conversation seems like a non-sequitur cause the original point was just how it's used on Chaos in the Streets, which I think is the only place I've seen a script with alchemist and mario where the script writer doesn't say "don't make the alchemist a Mario"

[cursive cobalt]

Sure. Alch Mario is slightly less harmful on Chaos in the Streets.

But I'm not arguing that it's at its worst there

I'm simply saying that Alch Marionette is bad no matter which way you spin it

And I gave one example for that

Figuring out you have misinfo isnt an easy task

[young sonnet]

One that's irrelevant to script being discussed originally
Like it's bad in other places, which it seems Adrian was arguing against, which hurts their case lol, but I think most people are aware "alch mario is bad don't do it" for the reason you said, but it is good on Chaos in the Streets. Not anywhere close to the standard value of a townsfolk, but it creates a fun bit of flavor while still being useful

[cursive cobalt]

I mean sure

Alch on CitS is just a flavor of Drunk

[indigo osprey]

What I am arguing is that the 'if you are the drunk, you are sitting next to the demon' is an interesting thing that can be used on other scripts. The factor 'hey, you might just be the actual marionette is only true if the other minions are silent (not loud). If the other minions are loud, it's really easy to deduce that you are not, in fact, the actual marionette and just the achemist-marionette. If there are 2 minions in play and there has been a cerenovusmadness death and a fearmonger announcement; you are not the marionette. You might be the alchemist-marionette, but you are not the marionette.

[young sonnet]

Those other minions would have to be loud loud

Like psycho, vizier, organ grinder

[cursive cobalt]

That ties back to what I was saying earlier about script curation

[indigo osprey]

(different) people yelling harpy, cerenovus can work; even widow call could work

[cursive cobalt]

Obviously, it's possible to make Alch Marionette useful and interesting

But it requires a very specific set of circumstances

In 19/20 scenarios, its just not a good idea

Hence why it's, in general, not a good idea

[indigo osprey]

I mean: engineer is in general not a good idea

[cursive cobalt]

Never said it was lmao

[indigo osprey]

you don't choose a random script, add engineer and be like 'done'

engineer requires a very specific set of circumstances

the conclusion isn' 'engineer is not a good idea'

the conclusion is: 'if you make a script with engineer, you make an engineer script'

[cursive cobalt]

Engineer not a very flexible role.
Alchemist Marionette is not a very flexible set of roles.

That's all that I'm getting at here.

[indigo osprey]

sure

[cursive cobalt]

And in the case where Alch Mario isnt on a very specific script, its ass

[indigo osprey]

the interaction is great and solid, just like engineer as a character is great and solid; just needs the right script, like a lot of things

[cursive cobalt]

mmm

[indigo osprey]

so is engineer

[cursive cobalt]

Engineer doesnt seem like that great and solid of a role to me, but pop off i suppose

Things like these are subjective

[indigo osprey]

I tried to quickly make this unpolished script; but the idea is: if your info doesn't work - it either is true in a vortox world or it's poisoned - get yourself or your neighbors killed ; I am sure one can polish it some more

anyway; the marionette-alchemist info ('a drunk that is sitting next to the demon') is interesting, but yes, if the point is: 'you can't slap it on any script', I agree, that's true

[cursive cobalt]

Golem on this script concerns me

[indigo osprey]

it's +1 townsfolk

[cursive cobalt]

Looks interesting otherwise though? Still a bit iffy on how its going to play out though.

[indigo osprey]

I am sure it can be tweaked; I spend a total of like 1 minute on it

[cursive cobalt]

I'm not really a big fan of rearranging script arrangements with character types

But ok, I guess thats something you can do

[indigo osprey]

I don't understand your point here, but anyway

the point wasn't to make a full fledged out script, the point was: you can make a script where the alchemist/marionette thing is something that can add value to the good team

[cursive cobalt]

Sure I guess.

[indigo osprey]

And I decided to expand on it, that, in general, if you think you are poisoned or get other kinds of info you either have to die or kill your neighbors

[atomic thorn]

hey fuck off

[foggy grotto]

replying to the question of the day so it doesnt get buried

[young sonnet]

Acrobat and butler I think are probably the worst at hurting the good team, I agree Sweetheart on S&V often just doesn't do anything when it dies mid-game, but in a decent number of custom scripts it does its job well

[acoustic chasm]

Sweetheart has a secret ability on SnV when I meta the storyteller, and that is tell me its not a Vortox game

Of course, that is a silly assumption to make

[sour harness]

Butler I disagree, pick the wrong person and you've lost an entire vote on a critical nomination. In some cases that gives evil the advantage

[young sonnet]

I have not played a single game where that has ever mattered lol

Maybe my butler players are too good or they just bait successfully/get executed early enough that it doesn't matter

But I genuinely have never seen butler be the sole reason an execution didn't go through (butler wants to vote, master doesn't, player fails to be on the block by 1 vote)

[fast anchor]

I mean, Empath and Imp are good characters for scriptbuilding that fit almost anywhere. Empath is a very strong info role and Imp's mobility makes it super interesting

[cursive cobalt]

Disagree on the Empath front

[fast anchor]

TF: probably but being able to lose the game for good in its current state is pretty funny and deserves a dishonorable mention
O: always and forever. It's just not an outsider
M: locks down worldbuilding a ton just by being an outed evil; there's a reason why many good scripts with it have one of to allow other worlds to exist. MM is also generally weak but the Lleech jinx makes it incredibly interesting since you can't just doubletap.
D: Probably with its complete inability to spread misinfo outside its own bluffs. On the right script Pukka can be devastating (let it pop off sometimes by putting a Ravenkeeper in the game!) so I don't think it's the weakest.

[fast anchor]

I think that there are some scripts that probably could benefit from something other than an Empath but I still think it's reasonably flexible; I'm interested to hear your take

[cursive cobalt]

People constantly underestimate how busted the Empath ability is

And you know why

That's because people think that as long as its drunk literally half of the time

Its balanced

It's not

That is a terrible balancing philosophy

[fast anchor]

I don't disagree that it's strong

[cursive cobalt]

The fact that Empath needs to be made droisoned at least a third of the time to be remotely balanced is a testament for how badly its utilized on so many scripts

Even when it comes to other axis power roles

Like Savant or Flowergirl or whatever

You don't need to constantly droison them to make them balanced

[fast anchor]

But a lot of scripts do have a ton of droison to keep it in check (maybe not as much as TB with but most Empath scripts usually have 2-3 of those or something like or )

[cursive cobalt]

They can survive on their own on a script with less predominant droisoning

Empath cannot

[cursive cobalt]

That's the key

most Empath scripts usually have 2-3 of those or something like or )

It very clearly does not fit everywhere

It must be paired with specific roles and scripts with it must cater to specific dynamics to be functional

One of those being

Arbitrary droison spam

[young sonnet]

Same

[cursive cobalt]

(If you can't tell, I don't like Empath that much.)

[fast anchor]

Most scripts tend to be high droison high info

[young sonnet]

I like Empath, it has its scripts, but to think it's not really strong outside of those scripts is indicative of some weird flavors of ST bias

[cursive cobalt]

Since... when?

Maybe most of the scripts you play with are SnV-esq

I've never encountered such a majority of such scripts though.

[fast anchor]

just looking through this channel, a bunch have plus a Drunk/PM/Sweetheart or something

(poisoner is a character for another time)

[cursive cobalt]

I feel as if theres quite a bit of false equivalence here

Just because a certain portion of scripts is popular within a specific playerbase
doesn't mean a character that fits only on those types of scripts "fits everywhere"

That's like if I went into a Chinese restaurant, saw that everyone was eating rice, and assumed that almost everyone on earth eats rice

[fast anchor]

I'm not saying the scripts I play or even the ones I like are like this

I'm looking at the scripts that most people on this server make (which are put here) tend to be more toward high droison high info

[cursive cobalt]

Okay, then your statement that Empath "fits just about everywhere" is still wrong

[fast anchor]

True and I'll concede that

[copper quail]

TF: For the reason you both you and Temporary stated and yeah often the damsel doesn't even get turned in a role that is that useful (I already saw a game where the Damsel was turned into the Cult Leader and won with evils 💀)

Outsider: and I think Golem can be harmful if they stay alive even if their ability is still quite strong for the good team and I don't think Butler is an outsider that actively hurts the good team

Minion: because when the pyschopath can do things at the cost of being outed but chooses when they want to be outed, The Vizier doesn't have that privilege unless Inv is in play. Everyone knowing one of the minion in play is also very strong + pushing on an exe may give too much info to town if not used correctly

Demon: and are the obvious choices yeah

[cursive cobalt]

I feel as if taking ST-fuckery into consideration as a legitimate factor when judging roles isn't the most productive thing to do

Because if we do that

A good third of Clocktower becomes problematic and labeled as terrible roles

Usually when I judge roles, I judge them based on them being run by an ideal Storyteller

Because A) Realistically speaking, that's the role at its best and therefore can be compared to other roles at their best and B) That should be the goal post Storytellers strive to achieve anyway

[copper quail]

Yes for sure it was more to say the role is already weak but even if it serves its only purpose, they can still get messed with by the ST which is sad
But clearly if we take how much a ST can mess with a role in that case Pacifist is one of the worst TF role if I look at how badly a role can be run

[young sonnet]

If I'm the Huntsman and an ST turns the damsel into the Cult Leader, that better be the only townsfolk left not-in-play on the script, otherwise I'm gonna riot-nominate them irl

[sour harness]

"I'm gonna riot-nominate them irl" haven't heard that one before

[foggy grotto]

on the very last note i actually just STed a game earlier today where a pukka killed a RK who then backed up the marionette and they STILL lost (they also outed to the magician, but that’s probably completely unrelated)

[foggy grotto]

💀 nah why the roles an alliance in WWII

[foggy grotto]

wait axolator it was actually your script i think

[fast anchor]

it was my script :3 ty for running it

[digital drum]

Gave +1 Thanks to @foggy grotto (current: #302 - 93)

[cursive cobalt]

Axis refers to how roles like these tend to be the foundation of a script's ongoing info

I legit did not make that connection until now

[sour harness]

5/5: best clocktower related phrases to use in daily life outside botc stuff

[sour harness]

Example: "I'm gonna riot-nominate them irl"

[cursive cobalt]

"You might die at any time"

[sour harness]

Oooh threatening

[fresh shard]

"in the world where..."

[pseudo fulcrum]

"I think it's a vortox game" - you can take this one multiple ways

[fierce reef]

ah i gotta starpass

[young sonnet]

Lmfao, thank you

If I'm not sure what I'm saying is true: "I could be the Drunk right now, but"

"I'd like to gossip..." and then saying a * true * statement and someone else in the room fakes dying

[indigo osprey]

"I want to talk to the confirmed virgin"

[young sonnet]

Lmfao

[dusky minnow]

"Something bad might happen to whoever is most responsible for the death of a new player."

[sour harness]

That'd be me

[dense moat]

“We should kill you for science”

[warped fog]

basically all of Portal

also probably what frogs hear in their final moments

[warped fog]

I call my friend who knows the bare essentials of BotC a Vortoxed Townsfolk all the time

[foggy grotto]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/845749635016556617/1207720780276826212/caption.gif?ex=66390120&is=6637afa0&hm=e23eb5a0e9595666fe3bbe1ce899a12ea538e2bc27ba1574c97afd1cf3c4dbb6&

[young sonnet]

* saved an image *

[dusty quest]

"Who are you going to put your fat, fluffy mitts on tonight?"

[cloud plover]

"Execute all failed virgins" /j

[onyx saffron]

"I'm pacifist...I would of course never hurm a single soul...But If needed....:)"

It's the irony the Pacifist is used to push powerful townsfolk

[lucid crag]

"She nominate on my virgin till I cause an execution"

[sweet birch]

"Wait sorry that was vortox'd"

[cloud plover]

“Feed the cannibal”

[supple dirge]

'It's ok to kill me but I'd rather do it tomorrow'

[foggy grotto]

5/7 this was being done in #botc-memes , what’s the stupidest combination of two characters that you can think of?

For example, one person said Mutaint (Outsider):

When you're "mad" about being an Outsider, you might be executed.
If you die by execution, your team loses.

[dense moat]

Sadier (Townsfolk) If the Demon kills you, you learn that it is 1 of 2 players. You are safe from the Demon

[young sonnet]

Personally, I've always thought Tinker and Acrobat should just be combined into one character to make them both more widely usable on scripts and I'm really glad they did it in Crossover Episode #1231368929138708601 message

[sour harness]

Idk my take is that if you're ever using an acrobat you should just replace it with a tinker

But combining them is fine too

[dense moat]

It gives a reason to throw off Acrobats info and provides an incentive to look for tinker deaths even further. I like it

[sour harness]

Lil' Legion: Each night, Minions choose who babysits Lil' Monsta's token & "is the Demon". A player might die each night*. [Most players are Minions]

Could've said most players are legion but this is funnier I think

[dense moat]

Oh also: Kingetic (Outsider) Whoever wins loses and whoever loses wins. The Demon knows who you are

Completely balanced, I promise ; )

[young sonnet]

Dumbest one:
Magician Grower: Minions & Demons do not know each other. If you die, they learn who each other are that night. The Demon thinks you are a Minion. Minions think you are a Demon.

[dense moat]

I forgot even when dead but it’s kinda funnier this way

[dense moat]

OH i just realized the extra layer of stupidity to this lol. That’s great

[sour harness]

Poppy twin: you and an opposing player do not start knowing each other. If the good player is executed, evil wins. Good can't win if you both live.

[sage atlas]

Teacanthrope (Demon): Each night*, your living good neighbors die

[dense moat]

Flower Lady (Outsider) If a Demon voted today, they can’t die

[sour harness]

Would be cool if it wasn't so traceable

[sour harness]

Flowerboy: if the demon kills the king, you learn if they voted today

[severe raven]

Puzzlitician: 1 player is drunk, and if they are most responsible for their team losing, they change alignment & win, even if you are dead.

[sour harness]

Wait that's kinda cool tho

[severe raven]

If you guess (once) who it is, you win.

[sour harness]

Ooooooh

I think if you care about making it fun then the poisoned player has to learn they were poisoned

[severe raven]

No, just if their drunk info happens to tank good, they win as a consolation.

Pitnovus: Each night*, choose a player and a non-Demon character they become (if not in play). They are "mad" they are (still) their previous character today, or might be executed.

[sour harness]

Heretician: if you were most responsible for your team winning, everyone ELSE who wins loses and vice versa

[sour harness]

I thought we were thinking of dumb combos, that's kinda cool

[severe raven]

Fangormortis: Each night*, choose a player: they die. Minions you kill keep their ability. The 1st Outsider killed this way becomes an evil Fang Gu & you die instead. [No Outsider modification works]

[sour harness]

Sailkeeper: each night, choose 3 players: between you and them, 2 are drunk and 3 can't die

[sharp violet]

Also we got outed in #botc-memes , now everyone there knows about us

[cloud plover]

Darmer: "All Minions know you are in play. If a Minion publicly guesses you (once), your team loses. If you die at night, an alive good player becomes a Darmer."

[dense moat]

Sweetman: If you die, 1 player learns who you are from now on

Gosslayer: Once per game, you may make a public statement. Tonight, if it was true, the Demon dies

[valid garden]

Nightwatchwoman: 1 player starts knowing that you are 1 of 2 players

[dense moat]

Evil Girl (Townsfolk?) You & an opposing player know each other. Each night* , you learn if they voted today

Lyclutz (Outsider) Each night, choose an alive player. If good, they die & must choose a player: if evil, their team loses

Flowerbabble (Demon) You start knowing a secret phrase. For each time a Demon voted today, a player might die

I’ve done like 3 for Flowergirl lol. I need new material

[foggy grotto]

Huntscharmer (Townsfolk?): Each night, choose a player. a chosen Damsel swaps characters with you & is then poisoned.

[foggy grotto]

i like how the secret phrase is just completely irrelevant

[dense moat]

It’s relevant in making the Flowerbabble feel special : )

[sour harness]

Yaggazepheles: you start knowing a secret phrase. Players who say it might turn evil or die at night

[sour harness]

Flower grinder: players close their eyes during noms, at night you learn how everyone voted

Town witch: minions die when they nominate

[sage atlas]

Boomsainty (Minion): If you are executed, all but 3 players die and your team loses.

Goblaint (Minion): If you publicly claim Goblaint and are executed, your team loses.

[cloud plover]

High Lycanthrope: Each night, lean the player the ST believes you should talk to most. They die.

[dense moat]

Priestiant (Townsfolk): Each night*, learn which player the Storyteller believes was most funny today

[foggy grotto]

Goblin’t

[dense moat]

Town Villiage (Townsfolk) Each night, choose a player: you learn if they nomianted today [+0 to +2 Town Villiages]

Batter (Outsider) Each night* if either good living neighbor is drunk or poisoned, Minions & Demons may choose to change characters

[sour harness]

Pope: each night, choose a player: they are poisoned and are the only player who can be drunk or poisoned for tonight and tomorrow day

[dense moat]

Vigormother (Demon): Each night*, choose a player; they die. You start knowing a good player & their character. If the Demon kills them, Minions die too and keep their abilities

No Idiot (Demon): Each night* choose a player: they die Your alive No Idiot neighbors are poisoned [+0 to +2 No Idiots, 1 of the extra No Idiots is drunk]

[flat lintel]

So how…

Oh its jokes

[dense moat]

Also see Flowerbabble

[sour harness]

oisoner: each night, choose a character: they are poisoned tonight and tomorrow day

Slojo: once per game, during the day, publically choose a character: if it is a demon character, they die

[sage atlas]

Slake Charmer: Each night, choose a player: a chosen demon dies

[pliant grail]

lycanman™: each night, choose a player. they die, but they learn who you are that night.
high idiot: each night, learn which player the storyteller thinks you should learn the alignment of next. [+0-+2 high idiots, one of which is drunk]
mantsman: the demon thinks you are the damsel. If chosen, gain a not in play townsfolk ability.
plague bat: If you die, the story teller is drunk or poisoned.

[dense moat]

“Why did the night take 10 minutes?”

“Was getting drinks”

[pliant grail]

"Trying to find the rat poison my wife hid from me last time"

[lucid crag]

Tool: You might die anytime, the first time you die, you don't

"Joe is executed and does not die!"

"And dies!"

or perhaps

Saintgoat: If a player of your alignment is executed, you might be executed instead. If executed your team loses

[spiral pollen]

Stinker (Outsider): You might lose at any time.

[oak ice]

Klutz Charmer (Outsider): When you learn that you died, publicly choose 1 alive player: a chosen Demon swaps characters & alignments with you.

[indigo osprey]

lol

[flat lintel]

I can see this working lol

[dense moat]

Well you’d need to say the Demon doesn’t count as dead lol

[sour harness]

Nah dude it's just the snake charm of a lifetime

If you hit the demon you immediately lose

If not then it's like a klutz confirmation but for non demon

[cloud plover]

True, but I think there's actually social ways around this

Actually, nvm, this is swapping with Demon 😅

This is instant loss

[indigo osprey]

snake charmer on hard mode

[severe raven]

Townsfolk.

[fast anchor]

8/5: What's a custom script you think is overrated?

[valid garden]

Obligatory "Strings Pulling"

[foggy grotto]

MIDNIGHT OASIS GAAAAAAAH

[young sonnet]

Midnight Oasis

Poppyganda and Whose Cult is it Anyway?

[sage atlas]

Catfishing, my one time playing it just made it feel like another random script a new person made that ended up being half decent the first go

[young sonnet]

Idk if I would call cat fishing overrated

[karmic slate]

Well it is EgaCool’s taste 😂

[young sonnet]

I think most people nowadays think it is in the "it's alright" camp

I don't see people recommending catfishing as much as poppyganda and midnight oasis

But maybe I'm just in different circles

[cloud plover]

Speedy nights is MID as FRICK (No, this has nothing to do with me drawing Goblin in Knight Ping in my first game, shut up /lh)

[fast anchor]

real & true! I personally do not get the hype

Poppyganda and Whose Cult are fun times, but agreed that Catfishing is kinda mid

It's fun but you need to be careful as an ST or evil WILL get rolled

[sage atlas]

my main bias is because my first and only game with it was where i was the fang-gu-jumped drunk and i really did not feel in the mood to be evil

[spiral pollen]

I'd say unncertain death but I haven't actually played it

But just looking at it idk

Some dubious interactions to me

[cursive cobalt]

Soldage (Townsfolk): You are safe from the Demon. If it kills you, you learn it is one of two players.

Alternatively

Damsetic (Outsider): Minions now you are in play. If one publically guesses you (once), your team loses. Whoever wins, loses, and whoever loses, wins, even if you are dead.

[warped fog]

Damsetician (Outsider): All Minions know you are in play. If a Minion publicly guesses you (once), your team loses. If you were the player most responsible for your team losing, you switch alignments & win instead, even if you are dead.

[dense moat]

This was my first combo.

[cursive cobalt]

I feel the same way

[copper quail]

Midnight Oasis and Commitment Issues

[cursive cobalt]

Catfishing

I’ve already explained why sometime before

But I just really don’t like how it’s built

Feels sloppy

A ridiculously frontloaded Good Team vs an Evil Team who’s only real strength comes from abusing crutches

Games of it feel very contrived, since 75% of setups for it suck

And if you don’t have a PH or FG as evil

You’re very likely going to end up losing to little fault of your own

[sweet birch]

Everything you're saying is correct but HOW DARE YOU

[cursive cobalt]

On another note, TwV

People treat it as if it’s a fun alternative to TB

Or some kind of stepping stone

It’s not

Its just bad

There’s a reason TB only has one Demon by default

It’s because most TB roles don’t carry the same potential for value as their BMR or SnV contemporaries

Not even mentioning Vortox, which mercilessly shreds TB’s cast of highly specific investigatives

TwV is terribly evilsided

Drunk and Recluse make ND impossible to solve for

Fang Gu on a script with zero roles that can detect it is very bad design

And Vigor sucks but we don’t talk about it

[fast anchor]

It works out better than you’d think but in larger games (13+) it can get a little suspect (Clock and UT/Marionette is the big one)

[sweet birch]

Oh I'd think Pukka/Monk

[spiral pollen]

yep pukka monk

[sweet birch]

I think the killing minions help with that

[acoustic chasm]

What are thoughts on Harold Holt's Revenge?

I've had limited experience. I've had not the best games of Whose Cult is it anyway? I have found Persian Paranoia pretty good so far

[young sonnet]

It's a little bit good sided imo but I think it's pretty good overall

[fast anchor]

Most of it is good

the Courtier is not

night two. pit hag. every time 😭

[fast anchor]

that one's also bad but not awful? grandma/assassin/gf help

9/5: Now, for the opposite. What's a custom script you think is underrated?

[acoustic chasm]

I've enjoyed Persian Paranoia a lot. Nice variation so far.

[fast anchor]

as funny as it'd be to boost my own custom I do have an actual answer

honorable mention to Trust for being absolutely wild (though it's got a ton of notoriety outside of this server, if clocktower con has taught me anything)

[acoustic chasm]

Oh yeah for overated ones, just because its on the unofficial app

vigormortis high school

honestly baffled by it

[fast anchor]

goon teensy 🤩

[acoustic chasm]

though tbf I havent seen anyone actually recommend it, but its prolly one of the earliest teensies people will see after no greater joy and laissez un faire

[young sonnet]

Can you send? Idk what it is

[acoustic chasm]

That does look interested

its a teesy

[fast anchor]

looking at it rn, dreamer and gossip seem nigh unbluffable, clock/vizier breaks one-minion games open, and gf/choirboy feels bad, but it looks really solid!

[acoustic chasm]

it is a truly baffling script

[acoustic chasm]

Mm. That is totally fair

I think I had good STs on the games I've played, but I can totally see how its not underrated

its vulnerable to bad grims, which isn't great

I just have had fun on it, while there have been other scripts I have heard of more which I haven't

I mean I think loads of teensy scripts are underrated on this server

But I think I find most stuff fun and I havent really played enough to form a strong opinion

[fast anchor]

if only we had a library for them

[acoustic chasm]

If onlyyyy

[fast anchor]

(but yes there are so many banger teensies)

[acoustic chasm]

I know its homebrew, but its criminal how good upon a scaled wind is

[young sonnet]

I wish I was further along with playtests on my own custom so I could boost my own rn too lol
I do genuinely think I cracked something great that hasn't been done before

[acoustic chasm]

I have had a lot of fun running it. I am the type of person to love Laissez un Faire, so that teensy is right up my alley

[young sonnet]

Big agree

[fast anchor]

speaking of "something great that hasn't been done before" https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1237856038871634071 recently got its first text playtest and it's a wild script

[young sonnet]

I think Wackamole is hilarious (Teensyville script)

[acoustic chasm]

Also got people who never played homebrew before into it, becuase the characters are pretty intuitive

Wackamole is nice

[fast anchor]

the normal script is pretty good too

[acoustic chasm]

I wouldn't say its anywhere near my fave though

[fast anchor]

suffers from dreamer breaking it open but still good

[fast anchor]

I personally never really got the hype

it takes the same spot in my brain as Late Night Drive By where it's oops all slayers --> only the sc has any actual info --> exe on socials

[acoustic chasm]

I can definitely put that in my 'overrated but will play' list tbh

I just think Wackamole is very samey, and is quite good sided. It kinda requires snakecharmers to play secretive for evil to have a bit of a chance

It definietly has a strong theme though because how much of it is slayer shooting and pixies and philos and all that

[young sonnet]

Yeah wait this looks pretty good, I didn't really look at it the first time I saw this

[young sonnet]

Yeah it's not supposed to mimic the real clocktower experience (which I do prefer over anything else) it's just kinda "hey we have 20 minutes let's bang out a funny game"

[acoustic chasm]

I have instant fear when I see village idiot with poisoner on the script

So many scuffed bad games from village idiots being idiots

But yes, it seems pretty solid

[young sonnet]

Yeah I think a lot of the bad experiences with VI are player issues. Like either town listens to them too much or VIs trust each other too much. I've had success within my own group so I count my lucky stars

I think math seems a bit too strong on the script

[acoustic chasm]

I made the mistake of running VIs with fibbin

I should have given the drunk VI even worse information

[young sonnet]

Pretty sure that's illegal under the 8th amendment

[acoustic chasm]

I didn't use fibbin on the VIs

I used it elsewhere

But yes, they were paranoid and that is understandable

I guess in my games VI games just feel like their information kinda melds together into a web which doesnt matter because there are 4 VIs in the game, so one is evil, and one is perma poisoned by the poisoner, or whatever

Maybe thats just a me thing

[young sonnet]

In my games some evils see the value of not bluffing VI if there's not too many people total (longer games let the VIs sort their shit out) and letting them screw up their own info

[acoustic chasm]

I find with poisoner though, VIs might never sort their shit out

[young sonnet]

Like, a lot of VIs assume the third one is evil anyways and then they just get useless squabbling all game

[acoustic chasm]

I think you might see value in it where I don't

And that doesnt mean you're wrong

I have not had that many games with VI

So maybe it is better than I give it credit. People who playtested it seemed happy with it.

[fast anchor]

I find with poisoner ~~though, VIs might never sort their ~~shit out
fixed 🤩

[young sonnet]

Idk, personally I'd be happy as town if poisoner was wasting nights on the village idiots. This town isn't the strongest of all time, but preacher, savant, fisherman, town crier, chambermaid, and ravenkeeper are all better targets, them being sober is a big boon to town

[acoustic chasm]

I know this is contradicting myself

[acoustic chasm]

Here

But the poisoner doenst have to be permanently on the VI

Even 1 night of rubbish from a sober VI can make it way harder to figure out

[young sonnet]

Yeah, but even 1 night of everyone else being free of poisoner mayhem is great
In my games the VIs have usually been able to be like "either we're all evil bluffing VI or we were poisoned 1-2 nights" and town can solve from there

But I think your perspective is valis

Valid*

Poisoner + VI isn't the best interaction

I try to avoid it on the scripts I've started building

[tall raft]

Is it public?

[young sonnet]

I posted one of them to #custom-script-discussion two different times to get some feedback before playtesting, but I will be making a forum post/uploading it to the script library once I playtest it enough to decide on which of the two iterations I think is best

[foggy grotto]

Miss Register by Axolator

it’s actually so fun though

i ran it a few times a week ago and it was really fun

[fast anchor]

ty 🥹

i hope more people start running it; it's a very neat social script and i'm very happy with it right now

alejo better send the script notes invite 🗣️ 🗣️

[dense moat]

5/10: What’s a role you’ve never played before but want to?

Alternatively, one that you wish you could play more but haven’t gotten the chance to

[sharp violet]

High Priestess

I tend to trust everyone implicitly so I want to be told exactly who to trust

[warped fog]

oops

[young sonnet]

Alchemist or Boomdandy, not a wellspring of scripts with them that are good

[sour harness]

ST lol

Those are my genuine answers

[cursive cobalt]

Give me

[sour harness]

I don't THINK I've been any of them before, maybe SC idk

[cursive cobalt]

Out of those

[sour harness]

And I've bluffed amne a bunch because silly

[cursive cobalt]

I’ve been

I think ET too but we don’t talk about that game

[sour harness]

Oop

Someone garden me as the pithag please I want to cook

[sharp violet]

I've had some great games, been once or twice, haven't played any of the rest

[flat lintel]

- Now, me with the power to hard confirm myself and execute basically anyone I’d like. Wow, love this.

- Want to try it out.

- I already always look like a minion. I wanna know how I am when I have to act like I am a minion.

- I yapp so much in games. Want to see what people think of yapp that aligns with my phrase or not.

[sage atlas]

Waiting for or maybe since I like to act evil

[fast anchor]

[shrewd cloud]

[foggy grotto]

spy or widow 😭

i’ve never been a grim peeker, or even been on the same team as a grim peeker except one time as an evil traveler

[fast anchor]

you don't wanna be a grim-peeker, lest you get hit with the "Night 1 has taken a long time, [this player] is the Widow" meta

it's also a lot of pressure 😭

[foggy grotto]

bah

just once though

also never been politician

but don’t really care about that

[flat lintel]

no its just me watching a video rq

[fast anchor]

me when N1 is taking a long time and I hear the ST put on “How to Storytell - The Night”

[lucid crag]

[foggy grotto]

5/12 What’s the worst amne ability you’ve ever seen run?

[indigo osprey]

My own mea culpa is ‘you are king and choirboy, the demon knows who you are.’

… evil had a pithag, which I completely overlooked when setting this up. 😭

[dense moat]

I can’t remember the exacts, but i was spectating a game with a bad one. It was something like “Each night, choose 2 players. 1 learns who you are & the other might register falsely”

It completely destroyed a solve

[indigo osprey]

I mean

That seems not too bad? At first glance

Perhaps too difficult to figure it out

[copper quail]

Each night everyone's role is swapped in a specific way (I don't recall exactly the way the swap was working but I remember I hated that game)

[cursive cobalt]

I was given the Singularity ability as an evil Amnesiac before

What that meant was:

• I turned myself evil
• I registered as a Demon
• I removed all Minions and Demons on setup
• I started the game by choosing a Demon and three Minions (blindly, mind you): I then gained those abilities

I won that game only out of sheer confusion

Because I had blindpicked Vortox on a script that it clearly was too overpowered on

And town failed to worldbuild due to there being no Minions

(I also gained the Meze, Poisoner, and Cere abilities, so I was able to turn someone going into F3)

But that was

An immensely stupid game

For everyone

[pseudo fulcrum]

"Each night, choose a player. They learn who you are and might register as anything." The st did it because they 'wanted to let the godfather get a kill in an 11 player GF -1 game' we then told the st how much of an outsider ability that was and how unguessable it was too (making the misinfo untraceable)

[pseudo fulcrum]

Oh wait hold on this is the same game isn't it

[dense moat]

I think so. The only thing I know for sure is that it was a recurring NWM that also made people register falsely with basically no limit

And that was the first time I ever heard someone use the term Aminity

[dense moat]

Its completely arbitrary misreigsitartion. It's not even "will always register falsely". It was completly unguessable and a trainwreck

[valid garden]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amine

[hot orchid]

I ran an Amnesiac who chose a player and learned whatever they learned each night. Good ability for the right script. Night one, they picked the Mezepheles. Needless to say, it was a disaster

[pliant grail]

A few weeks ago I ran an all amne that I really wasn't ready for (and neither were my players, I made it way complicated and all together was the worst clocktower experience i've had. lesson learned) In this game, most people had secret phrase based abilities, including one that went something like "the third player to say your secret phrase chooses a character from a (specific )seperate script. You become that character.
I ended the game with 3 alive evils and 1 half dead good zombuul

[lucid crag]

An amne in fishbucket had an effective each night philo ability. Virgin confirmed themself, Nightwatchman confirmed themself, Got mez turned and Engineered a Lil Monsta into play and held the baby.

[acoustic chasm]

It was a funny amnesiac ability on Laissez Un Faire, but at the time of the game I did not like it

[All other players are Lunatics]

[dense moat]

5/13: What is your favorite weapon of choice as the Slayer (in theory or practice)?

[copper quail]

A watergun 🙈

[lean kestrel]

reference to a longtext game run by a friend who's awesome at flavour text but it's gotta be a phaser gun for me

[sour harness]

Sometimes I just pick another player in the game as my weapon

[valid garden]

I like to go with "Dignity" as a simpsons reference

[abstract cosmos]

i remember a tb game where several people used me as their slayer weapon

[cursive cobalt]

Another Slayer with the same weapon

Slayercursion

[karmic slate]

A crossbow shooting crossbows kinda vibe? 😂

[sharp violet]

Guillotine
That is also my favorite method of execution

[indigo osprey]

I wouldn't throw guillotines towards other people though, that seems like a very difficult and ineffective method!

[sour harness]

I mean

It's effective if you can pull it off

Those things are heavy, and big

[sharp violet]

No, you pull them into the guillotine

With a lasso

[lucid crag]

Cinder Block

https://tenor.com/view/cinder-block-gif-25583904

[fast anchor]

14/5: What is a script/homebrew/clocktower experience you've always wanted to run, but never have before? (and why haven't you?)

I've always wanted to run Besjbo's New World Chaos after kicking up the spice with the amount of homebrew I play and run regularly, but I don't think I'm a good enough ST yet 🙈

my brain hurts watching games of it let alone STing it

[valid garden]

I've wanted to run [REDACTED] ever since Dela released it

[karmic slate]

A Leviathan game! Both running and playing

[abstract cosmos]

Bunch of experimental stuff really. All Amne's, maybe a partial homebrew with characters from TBA and HBL. Haven't yet cause time :P

[young sonnet]

I have a custom script I just wrote and I want to playtest it really badly but my players aren't good enough for it yet, evil has to be really proactive with bluffs

And I think I'm onto something really good, so I want to playtest and do a wider release

[cursive cobalt]

Yo

You should join my local group

[sour harness]

I think it would be really silly if I ran lizards, the problem is that something would probably explode or smth if I attempted that

[dense moat]

I do wanna run more TBA scripts. The 1st time I ran, I gave a kinda sucky Visionairy question. I also kinda wanna run Matsuraid, just because it seems to inexplicably function in spite of itself and it'd be worth seeing

[young sonnet]

I appreciate that, I'll consider the invite. I'm a bit nervous meeting new people online. I'll hit you up if/when I feel good about it

[heady cradle]

I've been meaning to run the Entity Hungers for some time, and I'd love to run Lizards but would fuck up so bad.

[cursive cobalt]

I've still yet to run my own chimera script

[heady cradle]

Fencer seems easy to confirm.

(Sorry, not the right place for feedback/not sure if you want any, lmk if you'd rather me move it/shut it.)

[tall raft]

Wait, how
The demon can just claim to be the fencer and then follow their own kills, no?

[heady cradle]

I think that's definitely possible, but it'd essentially put a target on their back.
Like, I think a simple meta is that you leave them alive for a few days. If they're able to, at the start of every day, communicate who'll die tomorrow, they're probably the Fencer or the Demon. I see this for 2-3 days, exe into it day after.

Either I hit the Demon or I don't.

Yes, evil could strategize around this, but that'd require the demon talking to a minion an awful lot, which is very sus.

[tall raft]

You could say that about a lot of characters

[heady cradle]

Could you though?

What other character works like this in that they have knowledge that becomes public, but they have it first?

Apart from like, things about people's abilities that are built to confirm

[tall raft]

Like a librarian seeing damsel

and outing that

and then later a damsel dies and outs

Like fencer isn't only a demon bluff

If the "fencer" who is a minion, outs the best kills at that moment from the fencers perspective

Then the demon can kill into it

[heady cradle]

That's true, actually

[tall raft]

Also, if the fencer can only be confirmed by killing it, it's not very easily confirmed, no?

[heady cradle]

There's more counterplay than I initially thought from the evil side. Right.

I'm not sure what the point of Cawthayne or Inysyns is on the script, but it otherwise slays.

(Like, I don't get the point of the roles, I guess.)

[tall raft]

I'm just guessing based on my 1 play through of this script that Cawthayne is outsider mod, and works as a simple demon to be an alternative to Obscrul, as good can overthink a very simple ability.
Inysyns is kinda like boomdandy as it discorages executees who are fine with dying, or the most ovious pick, because they might lose you the game

But you'd have to check with Temporary for the real answer

[cursive cobalt]

This

Insysys acts as a counterbalance to the many of pointers on the script and encourages more unpredictable execution cadence

Cawthane exists because it’s simple and it’s Outsider mod

• it’s a pretty chill design as a whole

[cursive cobalt]

This script needs playtesting though

If for some reason evil appears to be too weak

I’m open to replacing Cawthane with FG

And throwing an Oracle in somewhere

Or LM

LM adding an extra Minion could be interesting… we’ll see

[heady cradle]

5/15: You must choose a party of BotC characters for an epic quest. Who do you choose, and what class (not D&D-specific, you can talk about Shadowrun or another system if you'd like) are each?

[cursive cobalt]

Me who knows absolutely nothing about any sort of rpg

[indigo osprey]

I mean:

Bounty Hunter (Ranger)
Pithag (Wizard)
Psychopath (Barbarian)
Spy (Rogue)
Professor (Cleric)

seems like a solid start

[hot orchid]

Slayer (Ranger), Mathematician (Wizard), Tinker (Artificer), Minstrel (Bard), Acrobat (Rogue), Fool (NPC who miraculously never dies so we make them open all the doors for us)

[heady cradle]

Artificer, Wizard, Druid, Warlock, Bard
Could be a fun party.

[fast anchor]

The inherent alignment differences might make party dynamics a little rough

unless you got a Conjuration/Necromancer Wizard to make a good yaggababble somehow?

[cursive cobalt]

I would not trust the Tinker with any artifacts

[dusky minnow]

Goblin (Goblin)

[sour harness]

DPS
tank
healer

[sharp violet]

Psychopath (Barbarian)
Witch (Sorcerer)
Politician (Bard)
Boomdandy (Artificer)
Godfather (Fighter)

[karmic slate]

This is the only correct answer

[valid garden]

Any system? Well then

Investigator (Investigator)
Investigator (Investigator)
Investigator (Investigator)
Investigator (Investigator)

I love Call of Cthulhu

[young sonnet]

Pit-hag doesn't give wizard vibes to me tbh
Do you think a pit-hag is studying arcane tomes for knowledge? I think they're way more likely to be a warlock or a sorcerer

[heady cradle]

Pit-Hag seems more a druid to me, honestly.

[young sonnet]

That's 100% valid

I just prefer the leaked ||Druid|| character as the druid

[cloud plover]

(Bard)
(Bard)
(Bard)
(Bard)
(Bard)

[young sonnet]

Don't forget (Bard)

[fast anchor]

(Rogue)
(Oath-breaker Paladin)
(Sorcerer)
(Wizard)
(Barbarian)

[young sonnet]

(Mastermind, the rogue subclass from Xanathar's)

[heady cradle]

I just realized that Yaggababble can cast Power Word Kill, essentially.

[heady cradle]

as a wizard is interesting. Why?

[fast anchor]

It’s a weird one where I’m not particularly sure which 5e class to put it in? I was thinking Enchantment Wizard with its mechanical functionality as well as its social ability to get people paranoid

Fearmonger doesn’t strike me as charismatic enough to pull off a Whispers Bard

[young sonnet]

^^^^ this makes sense to me

[rose vault]

"I think you're just drunk."

[shrewd cloud]

“We should feed grandma to the cannibal”

[lucid crag]

: A bunch of semi mad weirdos who are part of a cult on accident, golem barbarian not sure on the rest

[heady cradle]

Golem (Barbarian), Pixie (Fey Warlock), Cult Leader (Old Ones Warlock), Mutant (Yuan-Ti Blood Hunter), Lunatic (Astral Self Monk)?

[lucid crag]

checks out

[severe raven]

Let's eat grandma

I don't know if there's a Star Trek related RPG out there (probably is), so my spaceship crew would be:

• is the captain
• for obvious purposes
• for navigation
• for tactical/weapons
• for internal defense
• , the backup person in case someone dies
• , another backup or the First Officer if the captain already caught their fish

[dense moat]

5/16: Pick a character and a name for their biography (ex : How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Blow Up Everyone)

[pliant grail]

the ponderings of a mountain man (pondering why he decided to wait one more day)

[dusky minnow]

Cracking the Cryptid

[karmic slate]

I am the Goblin

500 blank pages except for the 1st one which says... "I am the Goblin"

[cloud plover]

"The Secrets of Immortality"

[dense moat]

OVER THERE! THATS THE DEMON!!!

[pliant grail]

let's not split hairs -split limbs instead!

[foggy grotto]

you know who ELSE has dementia?

[abstract cosmos]

The Intricacies and Loopholes of Law and How to Exploit them

[oak ice]

One Last Job: Essays of a Retired Killer

[cursive cobalt]

…

99% Quit While Before Striking Big: the Story of the Remaining 1%

[abstract cosmos]

Flaarehgahgfjhsdfg shmoasjdhkashy abreashdkhukh

[fast anchor]

AAAAAAAAAAAA: Why the Elementary School Teachers Who Told Me To Stop Screaming All the Time Were Wrong

[foggy grotto]

“Helpless Maiden 101” by Author Anonymous

[pliant grail]

how to stalk someone without seeming evil

[indigo osprey]

Ursula: How King Triton ruined my Life

[fast anchor]

yo, TPI, hit us up, we just made a jackbox-style game for the ages

it'll be SO profitable

[patent elbow]

“if i was”

[sour harness]

"I was born on Opposite Day and my whole life has been defined by that fact"

[pliant grail]

"I died on Normal Day and I have not been defined at all by that opinion dang it"

[tall raft]

If I did it

[dense moat]

“How the Almighty saved us all”

(yes Jesus is technically canon to BOTC per Excorcist flavor text, no I will not use Christianity)

[pliant grail]

Is that a stormlight reference instead?

[acoustic chasm]

"This is a bestseller. 2+2=3."

[young sonnet]

This is so fucking funny you deserve an award

[patent elbow]

I was trying to figure out that same joke earlier i forgot about psycho

[fast anchor]

holy SHIT

[tall raft]

Close packing density of polydisperse hard spheres

[fast anchor]

Why Drunk Driving is Okay, Actually: The Little 2 That Could

[glossy thunder]

100 easy & quick summer recipes

Take Control of Your Life by Mary O'Net

[lucid crag]

"Could you say 'Gullible" for me?"

"Could you say that again?"

[dense moat]

Only just saw this. It was my main inspiration, even if the reference doesnt actually refer to the Vorin church from Stormlight

[cloud plover]

" 'Habeas my Corpus!' Common Latin Phrases to Confuse a Jury "
" Wearing a Nice Watch in South Chicago (and 99 Other Ways to Die in the Night) "
|| " Just Do It: When Suicide is the Answer " || TW: Self harm
" I'd Bet My Life on it: Why Good Gamblers Die Young "
" How I Learned to Respect the Dead and Move on with My Life: Rational Arguments against the Desecration of Corpses "
" How to be a Friend and be Influenced by People "
" Kissinger: A Biography "
" I am both Guards: Why Everything I Say is Completely True"
" Hot Potato: The Art of Evading Responsibilities "
" Big Shoes to Fill: Why Heels should Come with Laces "

[dense moat]

LMAO! THe Mastermind and DA texts!

Why My Gut Feelling is (probably) Trustworthy

[warped fog]

lmao

[warped fog]

LMAO

[heady cradle]

Rest in piss,

[sharp violet]

() Gerrymandered: How I (Almost) Was Elected

() The Story of the 7th District Wannabe

[flat lintel]

Gerrymandering is how you get elected

[sharp violet]

Yes, the Mayor used it against him

[sour harness]

5/18 which character do you find to be the most forgettable?

[young sonnet]

Monk or soldier tbh

[cloud plover]

[indigo osprey]

Always soldier

[flat lintel]

Stop, you stole my joke

[flat lintel]

It’s not used much, but it being in TB helps…

[dusky minnow]

[pseudo fulcrum]

i feel like i always forget minstrel exists

[onyx saffron]

probloby acrobat

I haven't played with acrobat in script At least once. (if we dom't count fishbucmet but technically It's not a script but combination of some of them and some roles)

And not just in game But literel scripts

[flat lintel]

YES

Its a hard one to place

[onyx saffron]

Hi nexus!

[flat lintel]

Hiii

[cursive cobalt]

Preacher.

I forgot it existed until I looked on the wiki page

It’s ability is unremarkable at best

No one ever puts it on scripts

It’s bland to play and rarely does anything of use

Overall, just a recipe for unmemorability imo

[dense moat]

and

[fast anchor]

Most Fabled characters (Angel, Buddhist, Duchess, Fibbin)

Also Harpy

[sour harness]

Disagree on harpy lol

[fast anchor]

I don’t see it on too many scripts

And on the scripts where it has a place the other minions generally do more & are more interesting

At least people remember fearmonger because it’s a wincon that never triggers

[cursive cobalt]

Harpy is good on scripts with high pointer concentration

People just dont tend to build those kinds of scripts often

[cloud plover]

Here's a question: Does forgettable mean "I don't see this role have a large impact in games where it is in play or on script" or does it mean "it gets lost in the larger world of clocktower and script building"

[cursive cobalt]

I would say the latter

[fast anchor]

I interpreted the question as the latter

[cloud plover]

Hmm

At the very least, I don't see it a lot, and it feels like it would be hard to fit places

Maybe not "forgettable" in the first sense, since everyone knows it's going on, but when people think of a new script, I don't think Organ Grinder would come up often, if at all

[cursive cobalt]

OG is memorable to me because of how much I hate it

[young sonnet]

Same lmao

[flat lintel]

I think it sometimes do too much. Like can't put it on outed evil, and than with stuff like sw, mm, it's a feels bad

[young sonnet]

Also until I tried reworking snitch I constantly forgot it was in the game

[tall raft]

absolutely

[cursive cobalt]

is a close runner up for me

Its only more memorable than because I've cited multiple times that it's tied for my least favorite Outsider with and

[indigo osprey]

I have a script with organ grinder and my personal experience is that as soon as you think of OG as a social poisoner, it works on a lot more scripts

It’s a bad character for scripts with hard confirmation, but with soft pings, it’s great: evil can easily vote in unison and nobody can learn from voting. (Hence: social poisoning)

[flat lintel]

5/19: What was the most craziest execution you ever saw?

[pliant grail]

I played a game of BMR a few days ago where, for the whole five day game, only DA protected people were executed
First the goon the DA made evil, then the neighbor of the tea lady who's other neighbor was the demon, then the self-drunked sailor, then themselves bluffing fool, and finally the godfather bluffing pacifist

[indigo osprey]

The goon wasn’t da protected though

[sour harness]

They were chosen at least

[pliant grail]

yeah that's true, DA chosen is better wording

[indigo osprey]

What a lucky snipe by the da

[foggy grotto]

hey i was in that game

weren’t you that DA

[pliant grail]

ye

lol

[foggy grotto]

yeah you were 100% MVP

the zombuul actually killed every night except N2

was crazy

[pliant grail]

and was still completely alive at the end too

[cursive cobalt]

Weren’t you the DA that game
lmao

I still remember that

[cursive cobalt]

And that was the night I GF killed

We had 0 no death Zombuul nights

Quite the rare sight

[lucid crag]

if fables count

I've never seen a trav ask for butcher

once

[valid garden]

Butcher is my go-to

[dusky minnow]

In a yaggababble game the amnesiac learned a number each night, which was the amount of letters in the yag phrase. However they were poisoned so they got incorrect info, so they learned 3, 5, 11. Town was talking about what the phrase could be and while someone was nominated they said they were "the philo poppygrower". Right when the countdown for voting starts someone yells that "the philo poppygrower" fits 3, 5, 11 and suddenly a ton of hands shoot up and they end up being executed

[flat lintel]

LOL

what happened after

[cursive cobalt]

I presume evil won

Poisoned Amne is very cruel

[dusky minnow]

Yea evil won that game ultimately, even though there was an actual poppy in play

[heady cradle]

5/21: What is one BotC concept that you think more abilities could work around? Why?

[shrewd cloud]

I would love for there to be more resurrection abilities for script building purposes, though admittedly it’s hard to make resurrection abilities. Still, even just one or two more would go miles in making Professor and Shab less of a pain to fit in scripts (not counting Al-Had)

[cursive cobalt]

General-style guidance roles

(I’ve already seen and made a ton in #homebrew-roles, but they’re neat and I would like to see more official ones)

[indigo osprey]

Outsiders that get their effect mitigated when killed by the demon, rather than triggering them.
Outsiders in this current category: soldier, damsel, saint

[young sonnet]

^^^^ I think DarkArtist has some great ideas on homebrew characters that expand on that design space

[sour harness]

Soldier, my favorite outsider

I agree tho

[indigo osprey]

We all know it's true

[valid garden]

Executions failing

[young sonnet]

Predicting deaths

There's just the unreleased ||voyeur||, but there's at least 5 homebrew characters I've seen utilizing it and it's so fun and cool, I love it, it requires a player to be savvy both socially and mechanically

[heady cradle]

Yeah, the way Legion does this is very cool.

[karmic slate]

🎵 one of these things is not like the other! 🎵

[foggy grotto]

soldier lol

[foggy grotto]

MINION OUTSIDER MOD PLEEEEEEEEASE

[fast anchor]

outsider mod PLEASE

preferably on the evil team

[sour harness]

True

[acoustic chasm]

2nd place goes to giving reasons why evils die

[young sonnet]

I'm assuming you mean at night?

[acoustic chasm]

Yes

Vigor, Imp, SW

[indigo osprey]

'reasons why evil dies in the night is absolutely my number one, yes

[sour harness]

Vigor, imp, fang gu, SW, ...zombuul?

Legion but that doesn't count

LM too but that counts even less honestly

Yeah more would be nice

[indigo osprey]

there is a reason I have vigor, imp, sw and lm on a script :p

[sour harness]

Is there an oracle

[indigo osprey]

funny how vigor is considered one of the weakest demons and fang gu one of the strongest

no, no oracle

[sour harness]

Also yeah I have a script like that too lol

Aw mine has a stormcaught oracle

[indigo osprey]

the script wouldn't work (imo) with an oracle

[sour harness]

It originally also had zombuul but the other roles needed to support its existence made it kinda suck

[fast anchor]

oh legion definitely counts

[indigo osprey]

We need more silent minions

We currently only have:
Marionette, Mezepheles, Poisoner, Scarlet Woman and Spy as silent minions

You could argue for boomdandy (isn't loud until too late) and baron; but all the other ones are loud in a way

[sour harness]

I mean stuff like have ways of hiding themselves for the most part

Also is somewhat silent on bmr in particular

[indigo osprey]

'being able to hide' doesn't make you 'not loud'

[sour harness]

And then is simultaneously loud and quiet and I love it for that

[indigo osprey]

a witch can hide themselves, doesn't make them 'not loud'

hell: even a goblin can hide themselves, doesn't make them not loud either :p

same with widow

[sour harness]

I think my point is that loudness varies a lot

[young sonnet]

Yeah

I agree loudness is a spectrum

Sorting minions into two buckets is not an effective way of describing them

However

[indigo osprey]

yes, and clarified what I mean by silent, I think?

[young sonnet]

I agree with Adrian we need more silent minions

As someone who has started doing script building

It really limits your ability to design when soooo many minions are loud

[sour harness]

I'm not saying we don't

[young sonnet]

It sounded like you were

[indigo osprey]

Like: of course loudness is a variant: vizier-organ grinder on one end, witch, cerenovus, psychopath even on different parts of that spectrum

[young sonnet]

But our bad for misunderstanding

[indigo osprey]

but I am talking about: silent ones: minions that are as quiet as a dead mouse

[sour harness]

Also I'd put on more or less the same level as , in the context of bmr in particular

[indigo osprey]

godfather and devil's advocate are both loud imo, but slightly less loud on bmr, but ona lot of custom script and for custom script building, they are pretty loud

[sour harness]

Similarly mez can be very loud if you want it to be lol

[young sonnet]

Like I'm literally designing a script right now in the script tool and it's hurting me so much that I don't have more silent minions

[sour harness]

Yeah on customs I agree they're loud

[indigo osprey]

a loud mezepheles is as effective as a loud poisoner imo

anyway: loudness is here defined as: proof that the character is in play to other people

good* people

obv a mez turned character proves that there is a mez, but that's fine

widow is loud, despite it only being loud to one person

[sour harness]

A cerelocked townsfolk knows there's a cerenovus, I don't see how these are different

[indigo osprey]

...?

[sour harness]

Widow is louder because the one person who knows has almost no reason not to tell everyone

[indigo osprey]

you don't see the difference between a minion being known to an evil player and a minion being know to a good player ?

[sour harness]

Other than that it's not the only strategy as a cerenovus

[young sonnet]

I don't want mez because I have a stormcatcher on the script and I don't want the possibility of a mez-turned stormcaught player. I don't want marionette because of bad interactions with other townsfolk I want like undertaker. So I'm stuck and basically have to go for Ol' Reliable (mutant and cerenovus combo) even though it doesn't fit perfectly on the script

[sour harness]

In both cases, 1 good player knows that the minion is in play and has strong incentive not to share it

[indigo osprey]

whut?

what good player knows there is a mez in play?

[sour harness]

The mez turned player

[indigo osprey]

they are... evil

because they are... mez turned

[cursive cobalt]

They’re evil by that point

[sour harness]

I see the disconnect

[young sonnet]

There's some homebrew minions I know would fit perfectly, but then it's not just a custom script I can post here anymore

So moral of the story, yes please TPI I'm begging, more silent minions

[indigo osprey]

like: a mez turned evil player isn't an issue that they know there is a mez, just like evils knowing which minions are in play isn't an issue

[young sonnet]

Give me ||Amaniti||

[young sonnet]

^^^

[indigo osprey]

so a script with scarlet woman, poisoner, spy and mezepheles (for example): good will always have to build very different worlds, because it's going to be very difficult to know what minions are in play;

there just are very little silent minions: most minions are loud in one way or another

and by 'silent'I mean: dead silent, again, of course there are differences in degree (witch, cerenovus, widow, psychopath, organ grinder, vizier is a very diverse spectrum)

[cursive cobalt]

There’s a distinction to be made between loud minions and public minions

Aka outed minions

Vizier and Psychopath are outed Minions

[sour harness]

I'd just make a homebrew jinx involving stormcatcher. Imo that fabled isn't as well thought it as it could be, evil has ways of dealing with good characters that aren't killing them

[cursive cobalt]

Widow Witch Cere & OG are loud minions

[sour harness]

Tbf has a similar effect on some scripts even if it's not silent

[young sonnet]

But even there, there's a spectrum
Witch and cere are definitely no where as loud as OG

[cursive cobalt]

True

[young sonnet]

And defining a chart for that spectrum would be helpful for conversations like these

[cursive cobalt]

I can make one

Later

[young sonnet]

I'll let you know if I beat you to it