secret thing

[warped fog]

the Professor, for example, is supposed to be a mad scientist who tries to resurrect someone with Science™️

[sour harness]

they couldve called it mad scientist then lol

and given it an icon that resembles that more

[warped fog]

fair

[sour harness]

smth like this maybe

(just found it online)

[warped fog]

there's also some references that are a lot more obscure, such as No Dashii

(referencing a nodachi, a long sword, in a vision of the No Dashii's long reach causing their neighbours to be poisoned)

[sour harness]

oh didnt realize that was a reference

[warped fog]

Po is solely because steven thought the deadliest BMR demon was funny with the shortest name

[sour harness]

actually that should prob be higher on the tier list

[sour harness]

yeah i mean ok i guess

[young sonnet]

Yeah I agree hard, I hate the "professor" "flavor"

[warped fog]

I hate the professor flavour

it's just such a weird character

[sour harness]

someone tell me why fools get 2 lives

[warped fog]

it feels like a GSoE kind of thing

[young sonnet]

The blood stain is lame though
I get it's kinda like, "silent killer" but I wish it was something cooler

[warped fog]

I do think Fool would've fit Deviant a lot more

and arguably, vice versa

[sour harness]

honestly yeah

[young sonnet]

Jesters were typically immune to the punishment of monarchs, which was normally brutal murder

Or, alternatively, the fool does a silly dance and the demon can't stop laughing so they get to live

[warped fog]

LMAO

ok i like that i'm using that now

as for Matron, it's more of the stereotypical matron than anything

a stickler for rules

[sour harness]

ok yeah its canon now (no shut up it is canon i promise)

[warped fog]

the Sentinel is at the gate of the town, affecting how many Outsiders get in

[sour harness]

oh ok that kinda does make sense actually

is shugenja some reference that im missing

[fresh shard]

I don't hate any character icons really

[warped fog]

it's a monk of sorts

it's... a stretch

but it's there

[fresh shard]

Golem to disambiguate whether it has a mouth for the Orthodontist

[warped fog]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugendō

[warped fog]

as for Baron, the Baron is importing Outsiders for free labour

[sour harness]

skimming it i dont see anything about direction, that would be a solid affordance

[sour harness]

sure but again the flavor text really isnt enough imo

[cloud plover]

I always saw it as those old style slapstick/animated cartoon things where an idiot is constantly stumbling into terrible danger, but by ducking at just the right time, they manage to dodge the axe and slip through the window, completely unaware of the near miss

[fast anchor]

I thought it was jester’s privilege

[sour harness]

They could at least call it jester

If that's what the connection is supposed to be

[foggy grotto]

vigormortis is cool as hell wtf

that’s rad

[sour harness]

oh vigor is definitely cool

but what does that have to do with the ability or the name

[warped fog]

Vigormortis is a play on "rigor mortis" and vigour

[sour harness]

i really like the name for the record

yeah basically that

vigor (life) mort (death)

[warped fog]

the idea is revigorating the dead

[foggy grotto]

also what doesn’t make sense about MM

[warped fog]

(minions keep their abilities)

[sour harness]

what does a key with a skull and wings have to do with it

[foggy grotto]

key to eternal life

it’s also part of the flavor text

[sour harness]

this may have been before i saw that it was a chair. but it still doesnt make a ton of sense

(also yeah it doesnt look that much like a chair)

[foggy grotto]

it’s like a MMs evil chair

but yeah

[warped fog]

when I was scrolling the wiki before actually getting a chance to play BotC mastermind was my favourite character based solely on concept

[sour harness]

i thought it was weird and kinda nonsensical but then i learned how bmr works

[foggy grotto]

yeah

[young sonnet]

It's inspired by the Bond Villain high-backed evil chairs probably

You can kinda see it here

[hot orchid]

IMO Baron is very on point with the flavor, but you need the flavor text

It makes no sense until I say "he's importing cheap foreign labor" and then it makes total sense

I feel it's better flavor than most of TB

[lean kestrel]

in what way is hell's librarian a stretch?

like, normal librarians tell you to be quiet and if you're not they kick you out or something, therefore the librarian from hell tells you to be quiet and if you're not they kill you

[cursive cobalt]

How does DA not make sense

They're a lawyer

Lawyers pardon suspects

[fast anchor]

Choirboy makes sense imo

[lean kestrel]

goon also makes sense imo, they're like hired muscle with little care for morals. whoever the first person to approach them for a job is the person they accept

[cursive cobalt]

And in a quite literal sense

[fast anchor]

he saw the demon kill the King

[cursive cobalt]

They are a Devil's Advocate

Meaning

They advocate for the Demon

[sour harness]

Oh I didn't make that connection lol

That one's probably fine

[sour harness]

Meh ok it's not perfect but yeah ok I put it too low

[sour harness]

For both choirboy and goon I feel like there are much better affordances out there

Double agent?

Overseer? And replace king w smth better

[sweet birch]

King -> Director

[fast anchor]

magician is probably a better "double agent" than goon

(and i'd get it confused with besjbo's DA in new world chaos :P)

[sour harness]

I guess that's reasonable yeah

Also magician could just be illusionist or something and hit the same affordance but better

[cursive cobalt]

Might be a hot take

But I actually like BOTC's loose-affordance take on theming quite a lot

[acoustic chasm]

Why is legion so low

[cursive cobalt]

Because capturing the feel of a character

In my opinion

Gives it more character

If that makes sense

Like

Most games just have their descriptions very straightfoward

You get exactly what you expect from a character/class

BOTC allows for reinterpretation

And in a way, having a character's ability not solely be defined in the most obvious way that their name/icon might suggest makes them more distinct imo

Then again, I'm a character designer at heart

So I'm probably a bit biased in that field

[acoustic chasm]

Chambermaid also seems logical enough

They go into people's houses to clean, so they probably know if said character was awake or not

[cursive cobalt]

I headcanon the Noble's ability as them singling out shifty locals at a high-society ball/gathering

Just a paranoid lord who's seen just enough to grow suspicious

[lucid crag]

what's wrong with fang gu vs it's ability?

[cursive cobalt]

I mean

Fang Gu is a made up sequence of words

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[lucid crag]

I always saw it as a ghost that possesses the outsiders of the town

[cursive cobalt]

That's what the icon would imply

But I think the tier list is going off names

Not icons

[fast anchor]

the prerelease one more than the official art tbh

[sour harness]

Idk what a hand has to do with the rest of the character. The name is good

[cursive cobalt]

The hand is holding a crystal ball with a demonic spirit inside

[acoustic chasm]

The hand has 6 fingers

[sour harness]

I'm a game designer at heart lol

[acoustic chasm]

So all legion know other legion

But its subtly off for good players in a way they can't quite place

Just like a legion game

[lucid crag]

I mean how else do you show evil rising up?

lol

[sour harness]

Feels like a stretch. Somnologist?

[lucid crag]

Somnologist sounds like a made up word lol

[sour harness]

looks like a ghost but not the official one lol

[lucid crag]

can't remember original

[cursive cobalt]

Legion's theming for me has always reminded me of this imagery

Except multiply that by an entire horde

[sour harness]

So why not have a ton of smaller handprints as the symbol

[cursive cobalt]

Nine Legion tokens being sent out already does that

Each individual Legion is a handprint

Viewing a grim with them in it, you see a horde of them

[acoustic chasm]

A whole bunch of small handprints isn't as visually striking

[sour harness]

Sure but most players don't rlly look at the grim often

[lucid crag]

orb that may have ghost in it or something, I can see why this isn't a stellar token

[sour harness]

Especially not new players

[acoustic chasm]

I think it works

[sour harness]

I guess online is a little different because of how you can fill out your own grim

[lucid crag]

unless the game is over

[sour harness]

Or like... 4

[acoustic chasm]

And if you have a whole bunch of small handprints

[shrewd cloud]

This absolutely

I love how different people can have different interpretations of the characters and the lore behind them. Especially the evil characters

[acoustic chasm]

You miss the main point

The hand has 6 fingers

You will lose that when you decide to put several

[cursive cobalt]

Hands are hands

[sour harness]

Give it 4 fingers then

[cursive cobalt]

Loses the feel since four fingers is associated with cartoons

[sour harness]

Or make it not a hand lol

[acoustic chasm]

Yeah. I'm kinda agreeing with Temporary.

[shrewd cloud]

6 fingers is more subtle at being off which I think fits more with the theming of Legion

[acoustic chasm]

Like yes

[sour harness]

Ok good point

[acoustic chasm]

You can go and rename the clocktower characters to be more literal

Chambermaid to sleep doctor

Sure. But at least on their home scripts, having characters together gives a vibe

Like, I think of BMR as being a mafia esque 1920s era place

[cursive cobalt]

BOTC has the classic "normal vs supernatural" theme

But the way it does that isn't on the nose

[acoustic chasm]

And TB as 1600s

[cursive cobalt]

For any given game, the townsfolk composition isn't just

[acoustic chasm]

Salem

[cursive cobalt]

"Everyone is a detective"

As it might be for most SDGs

The theming of most roles being deductive in indirect ways generates a town populous that feels more traditionally town-like

[acoustic chasm]

I feel you lose that theming if some characters were done different

[cursive cobalt]

I can rename every TB character

Watch

[acoustic chasm]

Not that all of them are perfect. Like chef without flavour doesn't make that much sense

But some I feel are overly harsh

[shrewd cloud]

Especially for some evil characters I think it’s harsh as a lot of evil characters (especially the Demons) are these inhuman creatures that can really be whatever we want them to be

[cursive cobalt]

Washerwoman - Civilian Profiler
Librarian - Boarder Police
Investigator - Criminal Profiler
Chef - Cross-Analyst
Empath - Seer
Fortune Teller - Cop
Undertaker - Coroner
Monk - Bodyguard
Ravenkeeper - Wittness
Virgin - Innocent Child
Slayer - Vigilante
Soldier - Chief Enforcer
Mayor - Rehabilitation Officier

Arguably, all those roles have much more direct and intuitive theming

But they're also charmless

[acoustic chasm]

They feel vaguer

Like crime profiler vs cop

[cloud plover]

I was about to say that this felt like the most grey, bland, crime-reskin of clocktower one could possibly concieve of 😂

[acoustic chasm]

I think the issue here is yeah

[shrewd cloud]

Town of Clocktower here we come

[acoustic chasm]

They blend into eachother too much

I guess though that could be what renaming them logically could be like

Like somnologist might be OK 1 off

[shrewd cloud]

Somnologist I wouldn’t be completely against as a name (though it’s a bit vanilla) but it definitely feels too modern to me for the B3 scripts and their general vibe

[sour harness]

I mean I disagree with half of those choices but I get your point lol

[acoustic chasm]

But then with psychologist, rehablitator, doctor, hypnotherapist it might blend a lot

[cursive cobalt]

Take two

Washerwoman - One-shot Townsfolk Profiler
Librarian - One-shot Outsider Profiler
Investigator - One-shot Minion Profiler
Chef - One-shot Setup Arrangement Profiler
Empath - Neighbor Profiler
Fortune Teller - Demon Profiler
Undertaker - Deceased Profiler
Monk - External Death-Preventer
Ravenkeeper - On-Death Character Profiler
Virgin - Executer of Townsfolk Nominators
Slayer - One-shot Demon Killer
Soldier - Self Death-Preventer
Mayor - Victor On Peaceful Final Three

[sour harness]

Well ok then

[acoustic chasm]

This is ridiculous lol

[cursive cobalt]

I'm too committed

[acoustic chasm]

I don't think anyone was suggesting that

[sour harness]

Better idea, take away the character names and symbols and just have people refer to the characters with their mechanical descriptions :D

[cursive cobalt]

You don't draw characters

You just draw ability texts

[sour harness]

Actually the ST just whispers the ability text in your ear at the start

[shrewd cloud]

“Hello, I am the “You start learning how many pairs of evil players there are.” What are you?”

[sour harness]

Ok but seriously, I do appreciate some theming and obviously having some kind of character name, I just think botc stretches it further than it needs to

[acoustic chasm]

Tbh though if botc was a worse game I think hystrex would have more of a point

[cursive cobalt]

Im pretty sure no one has heard of this game before

[acoustic chasm]

It's just very good so changing it does feel bad. But also I don't think BOTC does

[cursive cobalt]

But Camp Cadaver doesn't do abstract affordance as well

[acoustic chasm]

Really

Like hystrex

What would you do chef as

[sour harness]

I'm the "each night* (where the "*" means "not the first night"), choose a player: they die. If you kill yourself this way, a new player becomes the each night* (where the "*" means "not the first night"), choose a player: they die. If you kill yourself this way, a new player becomes the each night* (where the "*" means "not the first night"), choose a player: they die. If you kill yourself this way, a new player becomes the

[shrewd cloud]

I think theming can be very subjective so I don’t think any opinion is wrong. But personally I like the way the game approaches theming, for the reasons Temporary mentioned before. And maybe it’s just because I’m obsessed with the game but a lot of characters I can think of a rationale for their ability even before reading the flavor. Doesn’t mean all of them are 100% perfect but I don’t think they need to be

[cursive cobalt]

You know what this convo has reminded me of

[cloud plover]

This deserves the death penalty XD

[cloud plover]

Matchmaker

[cursive cobalt]

It's reminded me of those FPS games with very abstract affordance

And RPGs too

[cloud plover]

"Oh, these two look good together for some reason. Must both be goths or something"

[cursive cobalt]

Where bread somehow increases your range

[cloud plover]

That sort of reasoning

[shrewd cloud]

Like Vortox, I will admit, doesn’t immediately scream “All information is going to be false,” but once I read what it did, it just made sense to me and felt like a very reasonable name and theme for a character that forces all information to be false

[cursive cobalt]

Or beer makes you shoot one extra projectile

[acoustic chasm]

Seems like they are matching some toxic relationships

[cursive cobalt]

It makes sense in an implied way

It's not obvious, which is what I like about it

Personally

I'm a big fan of implied context rather than blunt context

A lot of my favorite writing tropes play into that

[sour harness]

Not sure tbh. I think waiter is sightly better if you wanna go with the same approach but idk

[cloud plover]

I mean, they see Evils together, right? I think it works

[acoustic chasm]

Yeah

I am kidding

SW Imp together forever

[cursive cobalt]

Chef has been turned into a Wattpad user

Woe be upon us all

[shrewd cloud]

Mhmm

It’s also a Demon so not a real creature. It’s a supernatural creature so I think it’s cool for it to be this vague, weird creature that operates with its own logic

[cursive cobalt]

The flavor text is the cherry on top

[acoustic chasm]

Scarlet Woman and imp were made for eachother

[cursive cobalt]

Technically everything in any given script is

:P

[acoustic chasm]

Honestly if chef was matchmaker then a chef 2 would imply polyamory which is way funnier

[cloud plover]

For Demons, at least, I think I kinda like the rando names. In a light fantasy setting where it's very easy to say "Oh, here's a soldier, here's a priest," it's very cool to say "Oh, here's a random freaking demon that animates the dead, or possesses outsiders"

[acoustic chasm]

And there would be jokes that the recluse is hooking up with the baron

[cursive cobalt]

The Recluse is a deviant when it comes to courting

[sour harness]

Well actually they anti synergize lol

SW is so much more powerful with most other demons

But I think that's besides the point

[cloud plover]

Technically, could imply that the middle one has two side-partners that they might be cheating on, but Poly is definitely the most fun solution

[shrewd cloud]

Me when the village Chef and Grandmother have to duke it out against a fucking terrifying tornado monster thing

[acoustic chasm]

Damn. I mean if the middle one is a recluse evil team will know their true feelings from a matchmaker

[cloud plover]

omg it's the loner eccentric X the trust fund kid 😆

[cloud plover]

This is actually the most cool part about clocktower

[shrewd cloud]

Meanwhile the Spy in between the Baron and the Imp is very good at hiding their relationship from prying eyes

[cursive cobalt]

Mfw I'm a literal lovecraftian sea monster the size of three cities yet I still have to let some rando mee maw who pointed at me order me up to the guillotine for death

[cloud plover]

The Demon is scary, but you can literally just drag it out into the street and beat it to death

Demon killing half a town and then granny coming in with the Steel Chair in broad daylight will never not be funny to me

[acoustic chasm]

Yes. The spy is bluffing monk and they all go to church

[shrewd cloud]

Why doesn’t the Shabaloth just consume everyone if it’s this big, lovecraftian beast? Is it stupid?

[cursive cobalt]

Town being given this much power over what would otherwise be a terrifying threat really sells the mundane vs magical aspect of the game in a very humorous light

[acoustic chasm]

Playing with its food

[cursive cobalt]

Lore-wise, everyone is meant to be scared shitless by the ST death and the presence of a demon

But game wise

No one cares

[cloud plover]

Crocodile logic. Dangerous if it bites you, but if you see it coming, you can just keep its mouth shut

[acoustic chasm]

Gamewise

[cursive cobalt]

Everyone in Ravenswood Bluff is exceptionally lazy

Town only thinks to put one person to death every 24 hours

[acoustic chasm]

"Ye i did these two peoples clothes and they liked different styles"

[cloud plover]

Also you try eating like 3 people in a single night. You'd explode

[shrewd cloud]

You get numb to the daily Demon possessions after a while

[cursive cobalt]

The demon kills one player then goes off to have their beauty sleep

[cloud plover]

These Demons are still person-shaped

That's why we can't tell at first glance

[acoustic chasm]

"Oh deary me. Thats bad then."

[cloud plover]

Even with two people, I'm sure Shab's walking around with a loose hoodie going "Oh wow I feel really pregnant today for some reason"

[cursive cobalt]

The investigator narrows a minion down using one clue then quits the next day to go smoke joints for the rest of the game

[acoustic chasm]

And the next

[shrewd cloud]

Resisting the urge to be a smartasses and point out LM which just hides in a hat

I do love the image of just the entire town wearing oversized hats and literally nobody asking to check under them for a little demon child

[cloud plover]

My headcanon is that this is actually the result of a weeks-long investigation leading up to the actual Demon's arrival/summoning and the reason why they can't find more is because they need more time

[cloud plover]

Someone has to wear the hat

[acoustic chasm]

I think demons possess people in town

[cloud plover]

There's a reason LM dies with no minions. There needs to be a person-shaped thing to wear the hat

[acoustic chasm]

They might not remember how their previous profession work

So they need to make it up as they go along

[shrewd cloud]

So could the LM prop up a mannequin and just hide there 🤔

This town’s not very smart if they are not checking hats so I’m sure the suspicious mannequin making monster noises will go unnoticed

[cursive cobalt]

Resisting the urge to point out the man made of literal stone standing in the town square

[acoustic chasm]

But they are a familiar face

Oh George?

No he's fine

[cloud plover]

Person shaped thing to wear the hat, keep it warm, presumably bring it near other people to kill them, etc etc

[acoustic chasm]

A bit grumpy but he's good old george

[shrewd cloud]

When the Golem commits public murder, it’s a triumphant moment. But when I do it, it’s apparently “evil” and “wrong”

[cloud plover]

This is a thing that always confuses me on a narrative level

Do these people know each other?

[acoustic chasm]

Yes

[cloud plover]

Do you not remember your neighbor was the Chef?

[cursive cobalt]

My headcanon for the bluffs is that they're the people the demon killed on the outskirts while making its way to the town from its summoning rift

The demon then steals their clothing and equipment and distributes it to their allies

[cloud plover]

Like, you've lived in this town for years, and never has this guy mentioned being a chef?

C'mon

[acoustic chasm]

Well I think your neighbour was the chef

[cloud plover]

But there's no proof. We start the game with no idea who anyone is

[acoustic chasm]

Yeah I see what you mean

[cloud plover]

At most, this is a suburb of people who are vaguely familiar with each other at best

[acoustic chasm]

Mm yeah

[shrewd cloud]

I feel bad for literally nobody remembering who their elected officials are

[cloud plover]

Even grand kids don't recognize their grannies 😂

It's kinda sad sometimes

[cloud plover]

Name your mayor

[acoustic chasm]

I can imagine that for BMR and SnV

But not TB

[cloud plover]

If anything, this is the most realistic part of the game 😂

Nobody knows local elected officials

[shrewd cloud]

We did just elect a new mayor so don’t actually remember their name at the top of my head

So point taken

[cursive cobalt]

Forget that
Where is the generation in between

[cloud plover]

Boomers

Probably on a yacht somewhere

[acoustic chasm]

Parents don't know children

Parents have heard of an amazing travelling circus with people more like them

[shrewd cloud]

Grandmother in general is such a weird character when you lump it with other characters

Cannibal and Philosopher especially are absolutely hilarious

[acoustic chasm]

So they went off there

[cloud plover]

Actually, this is the traditional Saturday Cartoon show setup. Parents are off working or partying or whatever, so plucky gangs of kids get into shenanigans

[cursive cobalt]

Theres also the fact that some people have an actual, bona-fide profession to work with

While others are just randos who are defined by one personality trait

What does the Gossip do for a living

Are they just out on the streets

[shrewd cloud]

They talk such mad shit about people that they kill them

Words can be deadly

[acoustic chasm]

How is the barber an outsider

[cloud plover]

Shab: "Wait, this guy eats people, and he's fine, but I eat people, and I'm a monster? What's the difference???"
Canni, using a fork and knife: "Democracy and portion control. I'll show you some time"

[acoustic chasm]

You would think they'd be pretty established

[cloud plover]

Apparently they have weird stinky blood that makes you swap bodies with people 😂

Literally the only justification I have for that mechanic

[shrewd cloud]

Mfw when a Grandmother’s grandchild fully supports feeding her to the local cannibal in the name of Demon hunting

Bye bye granny

[acoustic chasm]

The barber pole goes round and round

[cloud plover]

Honestly I don't think people actually care about dying in Ravenswood

[cursive cobalt]

They're a shifty low-life who claims to want to cut hair while possessing some very suspicious looking, very bloodstained surgical equipment in the backrooms

[acoustic chasm]

Confusing people

Nah they chilling as ghosts

[shrewd cloud]

Even if my grandma came back as a ghost I would feel at least a little bad feeding her to a cannibal

[cloud plover]

This is probably some sort of cartoon violence type thing, where dying is about as dangerous as Peach getting kidnapped. They all see it and are like "Damn, Demons are at it again, get out the crosses"

[cursive cobalt]

Mfw I lead my grandchild who I've known for twenty years to the gallows (some rando with 11 PHDs said he'll be back by tomorrow)

[cloud plover]

Imagine being a cannibal, eating a granny, and then realizing that you are actually also a grandmother 😆

[cursive cobalt]

reverse dimentia

[cloud plover]

There are no weird interactions here

This is all perfectly fine

So normal

[shrewd cloud]

Imagine being a Philosopher who thinks so hard about what it means to be a grandmother that you magically become someone’s grandma

[cursive cobalt]

Barber works a lot better lore wise if you just

Assume its theming is surgical

And not whatever it does regarding hair

[acoustic chasm]

True barbers were surgeons

[cloud plover]

No, no it does not

[cursive cobalt]

The demon swiping some really effective surgical operands from their stash explains why they can do a body swap

[cloud plover]

Killing people does not make them spontaneously perform brain surgery on two people

[cursive cobalt]

The way I see it, they don't do the surgery

[cloud plover]

I want you to say this again slowly 😂

[cursive cobalt]

The Demon simply utilizes their equipment

[cloud plover]

"Wow, I'm so glad I killed that surgeon so now I can do brain surgery"

[cursive cobalt]

Once they're dead and can no longer protect it

[cloud plover]

Unless the Demon is Kirby, this is not how any of this works 😂

[cursive cobalt]

Demons are mystical creatures

That's my explanation

They would be able to do this thing if given the right equipment

[shrewd cloud]

These Demons are shockingly fast at performing brain surgery. Brain surgeons should take notes

[cloud plover]

Mystical Creatures that can't copy Fortune Telling, Investigating, Sainthood, or Poisoning, but can somehow copy brain surgery from their victims? Specifically that???

[cursive cobalt]

Yes.

Don't think too hard about it.

[cloud plover]

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

[acoustic chasm]

Don't worry

[cloud plover]

Demon hasn't hit me with brain surgery yet, so I can still think about this and see that it is BLEH

[acoustic chasm]

We'll think as hard as you did

Anyway what does it mean to be a different character as a ghost

You were the flower girl

[shrewd cloud]

Your ectoplasm gets operated on because surgery is just that effective

[acoustic chasm]

But now your brain or heart is swapped in your body

And now you feel more... barbery

[shrewd cloud]

It’s one doozy of a night when you are killed, operated on to become something else, and then made mad by some mind controller that you are actually the Sage

The absolute brain scrambling

[cursive cobalt]

Funny how the evil team always goes through so much effort to fuck with good

When it would be far more practical to just murder them

How is poisoning someone not lethal

[acoustic chasm]

Depends on the poison

[cursive cobalt]

How is completely rewiring someone’s brain circuitry not lethal

Or transmuting them

[shrewd cloud]

I introduced BoTC to some friends recently and a bunch of them were like “So a poisoned player dies when the Poisoner makes a new pick? Damn this Minion is good”

[acoustic chasm]

Ye....

[cursive cobalt]

You’d think someone who’s dedicated their entire life to such a nefarious craft would have moved past the psychedelics by this point

[shrewd cloud]

The evil team also just sort of has a weird roster of Minions

You have some horrific monsters and users of black magic. Then you have a simple street musician with a funny monke

Poisoner 2.0 - You start by poisoning every good player. They die one night later.

We could also upgrade the Witch to be capable of some sick AoE magic but they could just be really bad at what they do

If I were going to curse someone to die when they did something specific it would not be based on whether they nominated someone. Make that person die if they so much as breath

[cursive cobalt]

What’s stopping the Psychopath from just axing everyone day one

Are they stupid

[shrewd cloud]

Screw the rules, I’m going to murder you all!

GOLEM…

…oh no

…SMASH!

[cloud plover]

Once upon a time, it was

The thing is, Ravenwood has seen a couple demons by now

And you can only poison the well so many times before people start getting used to it

[cursive cobalt]

“Nominations have not yet opened”

[cloud plover]

Natural selections means that residents of the Bluff learn to survive poison or don't live to reproduce

[shrewd cloud]

Ravenswood Bluff is just built different

Unless it’s them versus Pukka which packs a doozy of a poison

[dense moat]

Puny axe

https://tenor.com/view/hulk-gif-25068351

[sharp violet]

Acrobat doesn't really fit the icon it's been given IMO

Also what is Spy's icon supposed to be?

[fast anchor]

the new one's a mask

i think the old one is pretty self explanatory

I like most of the icons but Savant's chair and VI's lollipop come off as kinda patronizing

Kazali and Summoner feel kinda weird in terms of affordances, change summoner back to the ouroboros

I just don't like Harpy

harpies are, like, bird creatures? i get that this is a talon but still

we lost out on angry bird :(

[cloud plover]

It’s funny because spy in clocktower literally has 0 reason to have a knife 😂

[hot orchid]

I dislike both old and new spy

I almost would like something along the lines of an open window, maybe?

or a mask?

[foggy grotto]

or just

make that the icon

[foggy grotto]

mfw a magical woman who can kill those who nominate with a wave of her hand is on the same roster as a rich guy with a tophat

[warped fog]

TB and BMR have more grounded minions that fit the theme of Townsfolk who were recruited by the Demon

SNV has more supernatural Minions

[dense moat]

“Your magic is no match for my cheap foreign labor!” -The Baron, probably

[flat lintel]

What is the old one

[cloud plover]

The ones on the server are the old ones, I think

The ones on the wiki are new ones

[valid garden]

It is a mask, no?

[flat lintel]

(Sarcasm)

[hot orchid]

I thought it was a ring but I really cannot tell what's going on in it

Maybe it is

[valid garden]

I'm fairly certain it's a masquerade mask

[young sonnet]

^^^

[cursive cobalt]

It’s already a mask

A masquerade one, to be exact

[dense moat]

4/19: Since we talked so much about icons, if you could change any characters flavor text, which would it be?

[valid garden]

Oh there are so many

[cursive cobalt]

I made an entire thread just for this

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1206252480174760049

[cursive cobalt]

On a background with minimal texturing and weird fold patterns, it's not particularly identifiable at first (I thought it was a piece of cloth or a weird plant at first)
When you think about it from a linear perspective it makes sense though
Like when you think of how someone would wear it

[young sonnet]

A physical example:

[fast anchor]

@hot orchid

it's a mask you put on your eyes

just at an angle

I actually like most flavortexts

[hot orchid]

Makes sense

[foggy grotto]

empath

it’s boring as hell

[patent elbow]

De es fiasco

Goon i think it should have more details and references to changing alinements

[sage atlas]

4/21: What was your favorite moment in a game that you played/spectated/storytold?

[shrewd cloud]

I was playing in a game a few months back where I was Pit-Hag, the Demon was a Lleech, and one of our bluffs was Snake Charmer

Big brain time

The former DA, now evil Snake Charmer switched with the Lleech on like day three as the good team was starting to get closer and closer to accepting that the Bounty Hunter was the host (which, lucky af snipe btw)

I can not get over the evil amusement on my face when good just went “oh shit” when the game didn’t end after the Bounty Hunter was executed. Lleech host swapping is not balanced at all but it was still a fun game for me and one that has cemented my love for Pit-Hag

[dense moat]

I’ve seen a game where the Philo Snake Charmer got a hit and then the real immediately got a hit on the former Philo once they were undrunk

So 2 people came out as being Snake Charmed. It was hilarious

[flat lintel]

This happened to me lol. I was the Philo SC who snakecharmed the Demon, got snakecharmed by the Snakecharmer

The new demon forfeited

[cloud plover]

I think on my 2nd game on this server, a game of BMR, I drew demon, found I was the lunatic by D1, announced publicly, then Good decided to execute me D2, D3, and D4. (DA protected first time, died the next, and then one more because Zombuul/MM check) I couldn't mechanically dissuade Town from chopping me up, but I delivered a series of in-character monologues that I am still very proud of

[pseudo fulcrum]

Almost d1 Goblin win

1st chat i claim philo to the philo, i then back down onto artist
2nd chat i claim artist to the artist, i then back down onto slayer
At noms, the investigator claims that they saw a goblin between the artist and golem, i conclude that the investigator must be puzzledrunk. The puzzlemaster guesses the puzzledrunk inv and learns the correct demon who is actually the lleech. The golem nominates but the nominee does not die because the widow poisoned the golem. I am nominated and claim goblin, everyone gets scared and decides not to execute me. The golem is nominated and claims goblin for seemingly no reason. This makes the golem look incredibly like the goblin (in the inv goblin ping, nom didn't kill and claimed goblin when nommed). I don't remember who was executed but it doesn't matter.

d2 i have another chat with the philo who tells me there's another artist claim. I say i know, i'm actually the slayer. The philo then informs me that they already have a slayer claim too. I decide to stand my ground and say they must be lying. I am now looking very suspicious but people think the goblin is elsewhere. This is all brought up at noms and i am nominated. I claim goblin and town executes me.

Town is stunned.

some quotes...

although i'll admit, not a lot of it was down to me, quite a bit was just good luck (what the puzzledrunk inv saw, golem claiming goblin, widow poisoning golem, getting into three double claims)

[young sonnet]

Lmao do you remember the script?

[young sonnet]

Lmfao at the script name

[sharp violet]

Text game on High Priestess release script, subbed in for the Preacher on d3, was a very back and forth game that resulted in me solving the game and getting about half of the town on board before evil suddenly dropped resulting in a tie for a Leviathan win on d5 (I was the other Demon candidate so I’m proud I was able to do so well under pressure)

Live 7p game of S&V, was outed as the Cerenovus by the Philo-Dreamer on d1, town then kept executing the people I chatted with early each day hoping to catch the Demon - but I always talked with the person I made mad first and the Demon was always near the end

[sour harness]

We were playing laissez un faire, and the storyteller had to leave for a few minutes, so we all decided to mess with him. We all agreed to out all our roles to each other and then in front of him bluff everything wrong but still end up "somehow" executing the demon on the final day. So, with the magic circle broken, I told everyone I was the mutant. The leviathan and goblin outed themselves, as well as everyone else. We went through the motions, with the leviathan bluffing balloonist hilariously wrong, and the ST got super confused because he even made a point of explaining how the role works before the game started. On the final day, I was put on the block based on the very obviously wrong balloonist info, and then I nominated the lunatic with no real accusation and everyone voted. At this point the storyteller was SUPER confused.

The twist? I was the leviathan and we just executed the lunatic. Not even my goblin knew until the game ended

For reference

[pseudo fulcrum]

that's like a whole ass game changer episode

[sour harness]

Yeah I mean it's basically the bingo episode actually

Now that you point it out

[valid garden]

I still want them to play BotC for Game Changer

Imagine Brennan getting Lunatic

[sour harness]

Pffff

Grant as the drunk empath

Sam as the imp

[severe raven]

4/22: (If you don't like Legion at all, just skip this question)
You sit down to play clocktower. Your token: . You are woken up, and learn that everyone except <insert player name here> is Legion. First off, what was on the script (you have a few choices here)? Second, given that script, what's your reaction, and how would you try to play?

[flat lintel]

?

and your Loony?

[lucid crag]

be like

• 

[fast anchor]

Played: A game of Ramsay Street v4.1 here on Unofficial. I pulled Empath, died N2, but that’s not the relevant part. There was a Chef with a 1 who was confirmed by the Grandmother-confirmed Seamstress (nice!) and had lived until f4. There was a clear Imp world where the socially evil RK just died and “cleared” the new Demon. Right?

The Grandma was ND-poisoned, the Seamstress was the Drunk, and the “RK” was the Tea Lady who thought they were the Marionette the whole time!!

#extra-live-game-chat message

STed: A game of Star Pass All Stars v2.1. D1, the Barber dies. There’s a PM in play and the Gossip is puzzledrunk. The Fang Gu had outed evil to the FT, too, and told her that she’d get jumped after becoming the new Barber - she agreed.

Imagine my surprise, then, when the Fang Gu swapped the Widow and the Gossip, creating a now-puzzledrunk good Widow and an evil gossip, whose fake gossip from the day before killed the PM to avoid the instant rerack while the Fang Gu jumped to the Tinker.

And then the Witch bluffed Cannibal and “ate” the widow, then sold a Poisoner world after the Demon they “widow-poisoned” killed

Evil somehow won!

Text game so archived offserver: #1205662040186687579 message

[cursive cobalt]

We’ve literally lost

No matter what that player is, we’re not going to be able to get them killed

Unless we sell fringe Lleech or something

[foggy grotto]

yeah but they’re the only good player left

[cursive cobalt]

Presumably

[foggy grotto]

meaning final 3 is two legion

so we auto win

[cursive cobalt]

They have an ability that allows them to solo a two Legion F3

Like Mayor

Or a flavor of Alchemist

[foggy grotto]

ah

scary

[spiral pollen]

Could be magician

[cursive cobalt]

True

[fast anchor]

If they catch on it’s legion they will never vote on themselves and we’ve already lost. I have some choice words for the ST after the game about reading the dang legion guide

Could be playing Poppyganda and they’re the Mayor?

Or (if the ST rules it that way) alchemist-mastermind on Gary Cooper

[young sonnet]

the phrase "alchemist-mastermind on Gary Cooper" is fucking hilarious

[fast anchor]

It’s a choice someone might make

• running Gary cooper
• putting an Alchemist in the bag
• giving them the Mastermind ability

they’re all very bad choices but they are choices

[young sonnet]

yeah

I love that it is a phrase that can be said

[valid garden]

Gary Cooper???

[fast anchor]

it is one of the scripts of all time

[foggy grotto]

that is certainly a script

[acoustic chasm]

I'd talk to the storyteller about this decision fairly early into the game. Depending on how its done, probably try and play an evil game and keep in mind that I could be a , or in a weird game.

[indigo osprey]

I managed to frame someone as 'you are one of the 2 possible demon candidates, if we can execute you today, we know who the demon is tomorrow', and they voted for themselves

[flat lintel]

Why is Gary Cooper so bad?

[cursive cobalt]

Never self vote in Legion

If its a possibility even

[indigo osprey]

It couldn't have been Legion, there was an evil twin pair (and I was the confirmed good twin in that pair)

[young sonnet]

It's really easy for legion to fake an evil twin pair, what?

[foggy grotto]

that’s the joke

[young sonnet]

Ah thanks

[foggy grotto]

4/23 In your opinion, what’s the strongest character of each character type and why? (For outsider you can either say strongest as in strongest in harming good or strongest as in most OP)

Townsfolk: Professor. Some people might say Lycan or Poppy Grower but I believe those have decent counters. Professor’s best “counter” is shabaloth and even then it’s iffy. Professor can not only hard confirm usually 2 players as good but also can bring back a townsfolk to harm evil. and if you let them fish for dead’s, which many STs do, they’re just unfairly broken.

Outsider: Golem. Hard to say what counts as the “strongest” outsider but i’ll say golem. It’s hard confirmable 90% of the time and can kill minions. Yaggababble does make it slightly more outsidery but it’s still very strong for an outsider.

Minion: Mezepheles. Many people may disagree with this, but they can silently add an extra evil, bypass confirmation and create undue paranoia. If you disagree i’d love to hear your opinion why.

Demon: Fang Gu. Not really a hot take but it removes a townsfolk and adds an outsider right off the bat, has hard to track mobility, AND can add an extra evil.

[indigo osprey]

The ‘problem’ is that professor is too strong for it’s own good and ends up not being used because of it. In that sense, it’s good but bad design. (But I agree on the strength. That’s the problem with it. :p)

[minor pier]

Professor actually fares better on Summoner scripts. That little crescent moon does wonders to temper its potential.

[spiral pollen]

I think most powerful outsider in terms of being negative for good is Drunk

[hot orchid]

is pretty obvious. It's a very powerful Townsfolk.

is an Outsider with a strict upside for itself. Although Golem is strong, it's still not as objectively helpful.

is a classic but I stand by it being the strongest. You remove two players off the bat-- that's like two assassins! I also think that being a minion that has a starting ability is very powerful for a variety of reasons.

is the most powerful Demon in my opinion for the same reason as Baron: it removes two Townsfolk players automatically. Although it's simple and has little in the way of insurance, it's a strong instantaneous effect.

[foggy grotto]

the no dashii opinion is interesting. I find many people dislike it due to being easy to track down the source of the poison and thus find the demon

but i see your argument too

[shrewd cloud]

Townsfolk: Ehhhh, I think Professor and Lycanthrope are also up there for me, but I still want to go with Poppygrower. Poppygrower single-handedly removes one of evil’s strongest attributes, which is their ability to cooperate without distrust. I absolutely get putting Professor and Lycanthrope here though since they are also grossly overpowered

Outsider: Going with the Outsider I believe most hurts good. Heretic can lead to an insta loss if they confide in the wrong person and when one is in play (or an evil player is bluffing one), it’s always difficult for good to talk about it even though they really need to. I will admit Heretic can screw around with evil too but evil has the advantage of (usually) knowing who’s evil and who’s not. And Heretic gives evil the instant way to win while good has to play through the entire game

Minion: Most games I’ve seen with Summoner feel very swingy. Summoner can be vulnerable before the summon, but if they can get the summon off, it absolutely shatters confirmation chains. There are also some Demons I keep seeing on Summoner scripts that feel especially strong with it

Demon: Not exactly an original opinion but I think it’s the general consensus for a reason. Extra evil, extra Outsider, makes Outsiders paranoid just by being on the script, and can turn someone with good pings into a Demon. The ability to move the Demon around, especially to people with good pings, is the strongest ability evil can have in my opinion. And Fang Gu is the strongest iteration of this imo as stuff like Imp can only pass to Minions and LM has a lot of downsides (though I think these two are still quite strong)

And since Travellers are a character type as well uhhh I guess simply because they are stupid broken when evil. Admittedly they are sort of whatever as good though

[spiral pollen]

I think voudon is the strongest traveler tbh

As evil or good

[shrewd cloud]

I think Voudon gets more good favored as the game goes on since the dead usually are going to be comprised of good players, but I think Voudon definitely disrupts the good team a lot early on

[indigo osprey]

Baron has a problem of causing confirmed good players if good can figure out it’s baron

[dense moat]

Townsfolk: It’s by far the most vulnerable to needing very specific tools to counter. Lycan and Poppy are easy runner up, but all are incredibly strong without very dependent counters

Outsiders: or for most harmful. An extra Minion ability can be really strong if the ST is feeling mean. And Drunk can build SO many worlds with almost infinite versatility. It’s even one of the few tools that counters the aforementioned Professor

Minion: or , depending on group. Mez is less strong if you actually have to convince people (those who don’t just throw themselves on Mez words). Poisoner has regularly rotating misinfo that can fuck up nearly anything by sheer quantity

Demon: Near infinite versatility. Can function with no obvious tells or get more KPN than any other Demon. Kazali can also be crazy strong depending on the Minions available, since they get a perfect evil team

Oh and I’d be wrong if me to not mention Fang Gu. I just think it gets meta’d a bit easier

[shrewd cloud]

It definitely depends on the setup imo

Some characters can be hard to give false information in a way that’s believable. Obviously you don’t need to give false information to a poisoned player but it’s still something to note as some TF are definitely better to poison than others

And of course TF with mechanical abilities just straight up can’t function, which can lead to very obvious No Dashiis

[sour harness]

Guys legion is clearly the strongest because it takes away so many townsfolk and adds so many extra evils

And before the game starts too!

[cloud plover]

It's like super baron 🤩

[sour harness]

Yeah :D

[minor pier]

Inb4 Atheist being obviously the most op TF because it breaks absolutely all the rules.

[sour harness]

Has nobody said pithag for minion yet? Every time I run s&v I'm scared to put it in

[minor pier]

Pit-Hag is absolutely a candidate, it has so many absurd combos, and worse outside its home script.

[sour harness]

Oh absolutely

[foggy grotto]

pithag is definitely the most fun minion and causes 90% of batshittery in games but imo it’s not the STRONGEST

[sour harness]

I mean *theoretically* it's the strongest because if the ST feels like it you can win n2. But ok reasonable

[zenith lotus]

well, ET can win before n2

fearmonger as well

technically boomdoandy as well, but thats not guarenteed from the ability

oh right, goblin as well

[foggy grotto]

…you mean if the ST chooses to kill EVERYONE from a pithag arbitrary death night?

[sour harness]

Pretty much

Never said it was reasonable

[sour harness]

Slayer can win before nominations (I have lost this way before)

[young sonnet]

If you let people damsel guess in the night (throwback to that argument), damsel can lose the game before the first day

[warped fog]

so can Alchemist given a Psychopath

regular Psychopath can also win before nominations if there's a Heretic

[shrewd cloud]

Pit-Hag is definitely a contender for me though I think it can bump into the problem of becoming a slow Baron if the Pit-Hag can’t come up with any fucky plans

If the script really lets it do fucky things though, oh boy (flashbacks to the Lleech game with Snake Charmer as a bluff and a Pit-Hag. Good was so lost lmao)

[sweet birch]

TF: I'd say Poppy. Professor may be harder to counter but it doesn't tend to end games just by existing
OUT: Golem, agreed. Straight-up a TF
M: Pit-hag, while difficult to pilot, can provide the biggest advantage to evil when used well.
Demon: Fang Gu for being able to get an extra evil

[sage atlas]

is a massive annoyance for evil and is very strong for the confirmation potential
(in terms of power for the good team) is not even an Outsider due to being able to force evil to kill other evils else have them be extremely suspicious
is completely silent droisoning and can singlehandedly make any information unreliable
, although the lack of killing, can make even dead players demon candidates, even when not in play. This can often cause weird executions that wouldn't normally be seen in games

[sharp violet]

Unironically Atheist might be the strongest TF because any good ST wants everyone to have fun and winning is fun and losing is sometimes not fun, so they’ll make the game such that the players will be able to figure out it’s an Atheist game at the end and execute the ST and win, I think I remember it being said somewhere that the Atheist has an 80% win rate or something, don’t quote me on that

[sour harness]

Interesting thought: what character would be most powerful if not on the script? Like for TB+1 or something along those lines, what's the most powerful +1?

As an example, does so much more harm to good if they don't know it's an option

[cloud plover]

Athiest

The power to ruin any game in a single blow 😂

Though tbh I have never played an athiest game and have no idea how difficult it would be to detect

Feels like it would be wonderfully awful though

[sour harness]

Someone would just say they're the atheist

That's EXTREMELY ballsy if you're evil so it'll probably be believed

[signal holly]

characters that hurt good significantly more if they don't know to build for it:

Damsel, Drunk, Heretic, Politician, most quiet-to-semi-quiet minions (Assassin, Boomdandy, Godfather, Mezepheles, Pit-Hag, Poisoner, Scarlet Woman, Spy), Legion, Lleech, Vortox

characters that can hurt evil significantly more if they don't know to plan for it:

Chambermaid, Clockmaker, Courtier, Flowergirl, Town Crier, Mathematician, Minstrel

[sour harness]

Drunk atheist, on the other hand...

[young sonnet]

^^^^

[signal holly]

No Dashii and Pukka are also potentially on the list but less so than other demons imo

[young sonnet]

It's not that ballsy as an evil play, usually a passive or spent minion will do it day 1 or day 2, get killed (as most atheists do) and then if the game isn't making sense in people's opinions, they vote the ST out. It's pretty much exactly how real atheists play so it'll be undetectable usually (most STs will make the atheist register as evil because it's too obvious an atheist game otherwise, and hint that it's an atheist game elsewhere)

[dense moat]

“The sinister Zombuul is the deadliest Demon in Bad Moon Rising for its stealth and survivability”

[sour harness]

I guess I forgot that spent minion roles exist lol

[sour harness]

Imagine a zombuul that killed like a Po lol

[cursive cobalt]

Townsfolk: Poppy Grower. Professor is strong, no doubt about it-- however, the ability for a PG to completely cripple a game simply by existing and not dying is unparalleled, and in my opinion, beats any sort of confirmation out due to how many options it takes away from evil right off the bat.

Outsider: Golem If we're going off "strong = strong for the Golem's team (good)"; probably Heretic if we're going off "strong = strong at being damaging" just due to both how easy it makes evil's wincon and how it forces good to keep demon suspects alive in games until F3, lest they lose to the possibility of it.

Minion: Poisoner, probably? It's an odd choice, but one that I think is warrented simply due to how high the ceiling for this role is. A good poisoner will all but ensure that good is led down multiple garden paths; solving for poisons is a nightmare, and its mere presence on the script forces ongoing roles into hiding. Pretty good lineup, imo, but you also make a very good case for that I can see myself agreeing on in certain scripts.

Demon: Imma have to agree with you here. As strong as can be, is just much more consistently powerful. An extra evil and an extra Outsider, even if they are mutually exclusive boons, are just far too juicy to pass up; that's not even to mention the potential that silently moving the Demon to a player previously registering as good holds.

[dense moat]

Tbf, I actually agreed with Poisoner, especially if you aren’t playing on this server and people don’t just instantly agree to Mez words

I didn’t put Fang Gu on cause there’s a bit of meta, but also because I’m a little contrarian and I think Po does have genuinely good merits

[shrewd cloud]

I think Po’s definitely best Demon in BMR and even outside of BMR it’s still pretty good as it has options and has a very nice kill rate. But I think Fang Gu is just too loaded to not be the top Demon. But that’s my opinion

[cursive cobalt]

FG is very frontloaded

Po can be good as well, but only on the right script

On scripts where death manipulation is lacking it loses a lot of its strengths

Outside of forcing F5 to be F3 that is

[cursive cobalt]

4/24: You’re trying to get a friend into Clocktower, but you’re only allowed to present to them one character of each type in your showcase. Which four do you display to maximize their interest?

[foggy grotto]

Empath, Drunk, Spy, Po

classic TB and then the triple kill dude

[cloud plover]

Athiest, Heretic, Organ Grinder, Legion 😎

I was trying to be funny, but I think I know at least one person who would be intrigued by this line up

Undertaker, Saint, Poisoner, Imp, I think would be the more vanilla option. All TB roles, but TB is solid, and I think these are not so far removed from more mainstream games like werewolf that people would not be able to figure out what's up, while also showing off some of the fun nuances that make clocktower, in my opinion, a superior game, i.e. Undertaker wanting executions, Saint not wanting to be executed, poisoner mucking up reads, Imp being slippery

[acoustic chasm]

Empath, Recluse, Mastermind, Imp

Empath is simple to understand, and means I don't need to go into the difference between minions/demons

Recluse shows damaging outsiders. I prefer it over saint because i can talk about misregistration and how they always appear evil, but are still on the good team.

[dense moat]

Empath, Saint, Scarlet Woman, Imp

Scarlet in particular is good at communicating Minions as a support role

[acoustic chasm]

Mastermind just looks like the most appealing minion to someone who hasn't played the game much. Not ending the day and playing for 1 more day brings a really cool image to mind, and ye, it shows that minions are there to support the demon

It looks like a more flashy scarlet woman, even if it plays worse IMO

[warped fog]

I believe these were the four characters I gravitated to when reading the wiki before getting to play the game

[acoustic chasm]

And Imp is the simplest Demon to understand but also shows the importance of demons vs minions.

[warped fog]

3/4 of them were also on the script for my first game!

[acoustic chasm]

dear god

[warped fog]

I also gravitated towards Mastermind back then I think so

[acoustic chasm]

yeah

mastermind looks way cooler than it plays

[warped fog]

oh definitely

I was like "this looks cool as fuck"

[acoustic chasm]

but that's why I would show it to new players who want to get into the hobby

Its easy to understand

And its appealing

And it has 'their team loses', so its also a wincon???

wow

[warped fog]

my first evil BMR game I got to be the mastermind and won off of my ability too which helped

[acoustic chasm]

but like scarlet woman, it shows that minions are supporting the demon, but I think that mastermind shows it even more strongly

[acoustic chasm]

cool!

[cursive cobalt]

Mastermind looks really cool on paper

Its a shame it sucks in practice

[indigo osprey]

Mastermind needs a fix.

"If the Demon dies by execution (ending the game), play for 1 more day. You die in the night. If a player is then executed, their team loses."

[warped fog]

it has turned from "do we think the demon died" to "do we think the nightdeath was the mastermind" assuming you're ruling that it doesn't immediately lose its ability upon death and do nothing

[acoustic chasm]

i mean, on BMR its fine because there are so many reasons why no deaths happen. I have seen mastermind zombuul paranoia dominate games there though

[indigo osprey]

Yes, but at least there is a a death, which means that if there isn't a mastermind death, the game is actually continuing, so good has to be careful

[cursive cobalt]

“If the demon dies by execution (ending the game), you die tonight but keep this ability. Then, play for one more day; if a player is then executed, their team loses.”

[acoustic chasm]

I mean that's pretty neat. Also has the weird thing of allowing final 2 like zombuul

on BMR

[indigo osprey]

yup

you might also make it a might

[warped fog]

Mastermind could already do this if it survives to f3

[acoustic chasm]

true

[indigo osprey]

“If the demon dies by execution (ending the game), you can choose to die tonight but keep this ability. Then, play for one more day; if a player is then executed, their team loses.”

so the mastermind has agency on how to use their ability

[cursive cobalt]

Ok but when are they not going to use it

[indigo osprey]

that way, mastermind games don't have to be assassin/mastermind :p

[cursive cobalt]

Heretic?

[acoustic chasm]

they mean

[cursive cobalt]

Tbf I’m not the biggest fan of that simply because it can be done D2

[acoustic chasm]

the dying part

[indigo osprey]

depending on the world they are trying to paint

[acoustic chasm]

temporary

[cursive cobalt]

I see

[acoustic chasm]

not the 1st part

[indigo osprey]

ah, lol

I can imagine BMR games where the mastermind would want to die - framing there is still a demon in play (usually)

the demon claiming moonchild for example

that could be funny

and I can imagine bmr games where the mastermind doesn't kill themselves (for example: minstrel bluff)

and vice versa

allowing the mastermind to have agency on dying/not dying, expands the worlds in which where there isn't a mastermind, it could be a mastermind

[sour harness]

I have gotten someone into clocktower mostly just from explaining lunatic, so that's the outsider
Similar story with snake charmer lol
Poisoner is good because poison as a mechanic is really central to the game and it puts into perspective how crazy it's allowed to get compared to mafia/etc
Demon's gotta be vortox or zombuul depending on what else has been talked about so far
Honorable mentions:

[fast anchor]

You all have no originality at all

lemme cook

[fast anchor]

TF: Pixie or Ravenkeeper . Both are uniquely "clocktower" characters that strongly encourage good players to lie in order to benefit the good team, which is AMAZING. (The Pixie wants to intentionally counterclaim a power role, but that's a good thing? And the Ravenkeeper could be spreading misinfo, but gets some of the strongest information in the game if the Demon targets them? Awesome!) Honorary mention to Savant and maybe Flowergirl for how insane their info is compared to other characters in other SDGs like the Cop or Seer.

Outsider: Drunk or Lunatic . Both "you think" Outsiders are super fun, interesting, and ICONIC. Both have no idea that they're helping the evil team at first, but can slowly figure it out. Honorary mention to Plague Doctor for how wild of a concept it is and to Politician for being hilarious.

Minion: Spy . This one's pretty difficult; there are a ton of Minions that are really creative and iconic! Scarlet Woman feels pretty bland and Poisoner doesn't really instill that "WOW" factor. "This character starts knowing everything? How is that balanced?!" Now THAT'S a conversation starter. Honorary mention to Goblin who I just deleted my writeup for, and to Vizier for also being insane and iconic.

Demon: Fang Gu . Imp is simple but Fang Gu's power and the fact it creates an extra evil makes it compelling to pitch to someone who's never played before. Framing it as recruiting a Good player to the evil team's cause and describing the paranoia it causes among the Outsiders when none of them come out Game 1 of S&V? AMAZING. ICONIC. Honorary mention to Vigor .

[fast anchor]

Hit character limit but some other notes:

Townsfolk: Artist is another honorable mention for how insane its info is. Maybe Snake Charmer, too?

Outsiders: Mutant is another good one to talk about (maybe when talking in the context of Fang Gu) because it's already incentivized to lie or sink their team's ship, plus it's iconic.

Minion: Goblin is hilarious socially and the "call my bluff" game that happens when anyone claim it is super fun. Also, the fact that good players can (and do) claim Goblin to stay alive is incredibly compelling.

Demon: Ran out of space for Vigormortis: the idea that someone who dies at night might be evil is present when talking about Fang Gu as well but is best illustrated by Vigormortis. The social cred a Vigor-killed minion often gets, plus the fact they keep their ability is good enough, but the poison on top of that and the [-1 Outsider] to let them claim to have just devastated the Good Team by dying (Barber, Sweetheart) is super compelling.

...I really like pitching this game to people, okay

[acoustic chasm]

Vigormortis is a really good one

However, for introduction, I feel like I wanted to keep away from poisoning or madness

[fast anchor]

in the context of this question, none of the minions i'd want to tell them about are very good vigorkills :P

[acoustic chasm]

I do really like No Dashii

I might prefer No Dashii to Imp actually

A good way to introduce poisoning

and the way its poison can be used to track it down is really cool

But yeah, i was considering the question for complete newbies, hence my options. If I wanna redo my list then

[signal holly]

Ravenkeeper is a really good pick

and then... probably Saint, Spy, No Dashii?

[cursive cobalt]

Atheist gets the best info in the game in exchange for every other player getting no info

The way I see the Atheist is

You start knowing the ST is the Demon

You are the equivalent of a "you start knowing the Demon" role

However, as a consequence of this, every other Townsfolk loses their information

And the "Demon" you know essentially has a Saint ability in any other game

[copper quail]

Since I have a lot of friends playing American/Japanese werewolf, I think I would show them or as it is very similar to roles already existing then I would show the as outsider to see how you can doubt about your info
For the minion probably
And for the demon mmh likely but it sounds fun to mention just to say "hey they appear dead but they are not- crazy right?"

But mostly I think I would rather present them roles from Trouble Brewing or roles that are not too complicated

[young sonnet]

This was a really good question, Temporary, nice job

Got a lot of people active here again

[patent elbow]

Lizard, lizard, lizard, big barnacle

Nothing could go wrong or be confusing in the slightest

[sweet birch]

Ravenkeeper (to emphasize participation while dead), Recluse (to let them know misinfo is a thing without making it seem entirely uncontrollable), Baron (you can vibe and still be helpful), and Imp (demon has a safety net, potentially)

[lucid crag]

: You'll hate the Storyteller
: You'll want to kill yourself
: You'll gain large trust issues
: You'll be hated by everyone

(these are all positives)

/j

I'd probably go with if I needed to pick base 3 characters

[vital nova]

I like to do:

Empath
Recluse
Poisoner
Po

I think it does a good job introducing the idea of unique roles in the game in terms of 1) what character types are (the idea good and evil characters each have unique abilities and the niche each type fills), and 2) the way information can be messed with, and optionally 3) different demon types being a puzzle if I’m talking beyond TB (making clear some roles might protect so the demon could be missing a kill or charging and how that implicates the social and puzzle game)

[lucid crag]

I think sticking to one script is best way to lead a newbie just since it's easy to lead them into said script (but tbf you have 3 tb and po, and imp isn't hard to explain lol)

[vital nova]

Yes I mean my point is I don’t even explain demons when introducing TB

[lucid crag]

true yeah

[vital nova]

I think it’s easy to just understand it as “Good wins if the demon’s dead, Evil wins if the demon’s alive in F2” then once introducing other demons (like Po) make clear other demons can’t starpass that’s unique to Imp

[lucid crag]

I also forgot about mutant, but it's one hell of a way to introduce outsiders

Outsiders = bad tf, example = mutant literally must lie to live

[vital nova]

Yeah I just think madness is the hardest B3 mechanic to explain and therefore wait

[lucid crag]

(And if my demon is vortox, recluse is repetitive)

[lucid crag]

I've always felt cere madness vs mutant madness were different levels of hard to explain

mutant being simple cere

[lucid crag]

(that does however change my stance here, witch would probably be better than cere)

or evil twin perhaps, since it's a crazy concept

[hot orchid]

Question of the day: how do we feel about Mastermind causing a loss if a living player isn't executed?

As opposed to it enabling double taps

[sweet fulcrum]

Hey I wasn’t done with the last one!

I am writing a really long answer

[hot orchid]

New day in my timezone 🤷

[sweet fulcrum]

Well stop using time!

[hot orchid]

Ok

[sweet fulcrum]

I am new to this so I am by no means an expert but I’d say it depends. (This needs to be split into 2 parts to fit)

If you are just trying to explain to character types then I’d recommend this line up:
Townsfolk - Empath | The Empath is a very simple example of a townsfolk that gains info each night and doesn’t need to do anything else to get it’s info. Soldier | An honorary mention can go to the Soldier because it shows how roles don’t need to gain info to be good and helpful roles.

Outsider - Saint | The Saint is another very simple example of a outsider as just it existing is a negative, you might want to talk about how the saint would want to make itself seem like an important role and maybe even directly claim to be something else to get killed off and no longer be a nuisance to the town. This brings up the fact that it is sometimes reasonable and beneficial for good roles to lie if it’s for the greater good of the town. You could bring up other roles like Ravenkeeper to continue talking about roles that may intentionally lie but we are just trying to get them to understand what each kind of role type is meant to be. Tinker | An honorary mention goes to the Tinker as it’s ability is equally as easy to understand. The Tinker just could die at anytime and that’s that.

Minion - Baron | The Baron doesn’t need to do anything,since it’s power just changes the role distribution it cannot be simpler. Again you may think why not bring up a role like the Poisoner and the reasoning is that poison is pretty complex and we are just trying to explain the role types. Assassin | An honorary mention for the Assassin as it’s whole power is just 1 time choose someone and they die. I was thinking about putting Boomdandy, Mastermind or Devil’s Advocate as the honorary mention but Assassin took that spot.

Demon - Imp | The Imp is the Trouble brewing demon so it gets points for being the first demon that the new player should be encountering. It is quite simple with it being a each night kill someone demon that can be seen as the most basic kinds of demon. Explaining the star passing ability ability should be fine as since you are finishing explaining the 4 character types you can get to explaining the more complex abilities and mechanics. Po | And for the final honorary mention we have the Po, the Po would have been the first choice if it wasn’t for the Imp being the first demon and being a 1 night 1 kill demon.

Why didn’t the imp icon work?

Ok it’s fixed

My 4 are not really to introduce some mechanics like poison/drunkenness or how the executions work. They are purely to explain the 4 character types

[warped fog]

It's interesting

It makes it far more of a threat

[copper quail]

I think I would rather not see this change
It makes mastermind and zombuul a way more powerful in a way that I don't think it is needed
Bmr is already well balanced imo and this change would favor evil too much
Even when there are night deaths, town will be scared to double tap and on a script that encourages executing I find it a bit too rough
But it is just a personal preference

[sour harness]

Wait loss for who

Gotta be unambiguous lol

[hot orchid]

It would read "If the demon is executed (ending the game), play for one more day. If a living evil player isn't executed or no players are executed, your team wins."

[sour harness]

Why tho

[foggy grotto]

so that people can’t just sleep on a suspected MM day is probs the reason, but that strategy is equally risky in a zombuul game so i think it’s fine as is

[fast anchor]

interesting but probably breaks BMR since that’s carefully balanced around zombuul and current mastermind

[acoustic chasm]

yeah

I kinda wanna redo my answer to the previous question

[acoustic chasm]

Townsfolk: Empath
I feel Empath is a really easy character to understand. You can talk about how this makes you aware of your neighbours (and whether or not you want to execute them), and also how you don't get character information announced on death. I do also think Ravenkeeper deserves a shout out.
Outsider: Damsel
This one is also really easy to understand, and introduces why good players might bluff and Outsiders as a concept.
Minion: Scarlet Woman
I do think Mastermind is great to show how minions play a supporting role, but I think Scarlet Woman does it better and I would be able to explain why Scarlet Woman is so deadly compared to Mastermind where the script really needs to support it. Plus, Scarlet Woman No Dashii interaction can show how characters can combo together.
Demon: No Dashii
I think this introduces poisoning in an understandable way to new players. You can talk about how No Dashii can screw with information, but also how good team can use that to track the No Dashii down. Good stuff!

[fast anchor]

26/4: What do you think about the new character, the ||Banshee||?

[sharp violet]

seems fun at first glance in the same way that other demonbane characters are fun

[foggy grotto]

solid bait character

[young sonnet]

Hilarious that you are encouraged to raise two hands to double vote

Ingenious flavor

[cursive cobalt]

It’s okay

I don’t see myself using it

But it’s fine I guess

It has a powerful gimmick, but at the end of the day, that’s all it really boils down to since the gimmick itself provides no info on other players

[cursive cobalt]

It becomes overtuned

Imo

[flat lintel]

sorta strong. like alch vizier vibes

[sour harness]

Feels broken lol

I hope I'm wrong

[foggy grotto]

i find it hilarious how many people think banshee is broken OP and others think it’s garbage and useless

[indigo osprey]

I think it's neither: it's a dead confirmed virgin with additional powers

which makes it stronger, but def not op

just convince them of your world

[minor pier]

Because the Virgin confirming someone else (thus, 2 people, or 1 and a half if you fear Drunk) and potential info with it doesn't count as additional powers ?

[minor pier]

It's fine, I think it fits a lot of scripts, which is something many of the 'cooler' characters can't do. Self confirm + additional voting power is always valuable, and there isn't much that interacts badly with it. Token art/flavor is hilarious, too.
Even its jinxes are minimal - and the Vortox one is actually a good sign that we could see similar jinxes on certain TF that interact badly with Vortox (Poppygrower, Magician, etc)

[cursive cobalt]

Meanwhile I think it’s mid

Lol

It’s the weakest bait role imo

But bait roles are by no means weak by default

They’re well above average Townsfolk level when they proc

[cloud plover]

When they proc

Here’s a script idea: all “when you die” townsfolk roles. Demon has to hit some of them, right?

[cursive cobalt]

It would be a funny concept to make an "only triggered roles" script

[fresh shard]

I'd say call it "pick your poison" but then you have to put the Poisoner on it and that sounds very unfun

[cloud plover]

Call it “poison panic” and have exactly 0 sources of droisoning

The poison is on the script namer 😎

[sour harness]

Use barista to have -1 sources

[sharp violet]

#custom-script-discussion message
#custom-script-discussion message

[cloud plover]

Here’s an idea: if Vortox kills the Banshee, all players should learn that the Banshee has not died

Oh wait, that confirms Vortox

Dammit, nvm

Would’ve been fun though 😔

[sage atlas]

Anyways I don't understand the jinx between vortox and banshee? Is it just for clarification or something since I doubt that an alch-fearmonger would announce that the fearmonger has not chosen or something

[cloud plover]

Vortox says “false information.” If banshee says “players learn the banshee has died,” vortox makes it so that “players learn the banshee has not died.” Now, since players would never learn this in any other situation, they still know the banshee died, and now they also know vortox in play, which sucks for vortox

[sage atlas]

By that logic, wouldn't an alch-fearmonger not have a choice announcement?

Or an alch vizier announce the wrong player?

[cloud plover]

Idk if there’s a jinx there, but if not, there should be

Because RAW, it sounds like yes, that should be how it goes

[sage atlas]

If the banshee was reworded to something like "When you die, all players learn this." then this interaction would be fixed without the need of vortox

And could make it somewhat bluffable if there's somehow multiple deaths

[cloud plover]

“Townsfolk abilities yield false info”

As long as banshee is townsfolk, I don’t see the fix here?

[sage atlas]

From what I've heard, learning something like "The fearmonger has not chosen" is invalid and therefore the only valid thing that can be learned is "The fearmonger has chosen" in the case with something like alch fm

[lucid crag]

Alch vizier learns it's goblin and random good guy is announced vizier pog

/j

[flat lintel]

vigor not being on is a disgrace 😦

[foggy grotto]

4/27 What characters are on your hard “wont play with” list and why?

[spiral pollen]

none for me

ok maybe some travellers

probably just bishop tbh

[sour harness]

Kazali is toxic

I think that's the whole list? I haven't played enough summoner to know if it's at the same level or not

[spiral pollen]

I've heard that from people but it's not my experience at all

[cloud plover]

High Priestess! Give me info that makes sense or give me death!!! (Actually trying to work on my ability to make sense of non-concrete info roles like Magician/HP, but even joining a script with those doesn't guarantee I draw them 😅)

[cursive cobalt]

Heretic

I think thats about it

Oh yeah

Organ Grinder too

That's about it

I don't mind Legion anymore

[shrewd cloud]

I don’t think there are any that are a hard no but Heretic, Legion, and Riot are definitely my least favorite

Heretic’s annoying as hell to solve for, Legion can feel super toxic and frustrating, and Riot isn’t really what I like about this game

[fresh shard]

My group has effectively banned Yaggababble because too many people flat out refuse to play if they could possibly be it (and our usual STs aren't quite practiced enough to run it well)

No other role has ever been a real issue, but I've never played a script with Heretic or Riot

[fast anchor]

None. If I’m playing BotC I want the silly shit

Even Apprentice is just a soft “I don’t like this character”

[cursive cobalt]

I always forget Riot exists

But yeah now that you mention it, there’s a good reason for that

I don’t like Riot

[fierce reef]

i feel like riot makes the game really really different, the basics are changed

kinda like matron

[sour harness]

Oh yeah I don't like matron bc my legs hurt :(

[hot orchid]

I'm a huge fan of Matron and use it almost like a Fabled when the group is particularly big and the space is particularly small

[fierce reef]

ohhhhh that’s such a good point

never thought of that

[hot orchid]

I ran a 17 player game that only worked because of an Angel protected Matron

I don't think this is ideal gameplay but it's a tool when you need a patch

[young sonnet]

^^^^ I would rather die than play two organ grinder games in a row

I can make it through one

But I'm gonna be emaciated

[copper quail]

Organ Grinder too 🙈
There are also characters where I am like "fine to play with it sometimes for fun but certainly not every time"
I think Riot, Plague Doctor, Summoner and Kazali are in this category for me

[severe raven]

Matron says "players cannot leave their seats to talk in private" (emph mine). You can leave if you neeeeed to stretch or get water, just don't talk about the game.

[minor pier]

I'm not a big fan of Heretic, but I've yet to really play much with it. Also, I'm STing a dedicated Duchess/Bishop script right now, and it really grew on me, it's actually a fine Traveller.

[sage atlas]

heretic is something that id be willing to play, but one that i def do not want to play with is matron

[fast anchor]

I might be #1 Matron stan

it's weird online but IRL i've had a ton of fun with it

[shrewd cloud]

I don’t hate Matron in practice but I do absolutely understand why it’s not a popular Traveller. It does look significantly more fun irl though for sure

BMR Travellers in general are just so mid (at best). And that’s not even getting into how many BMR characters work weirdly with Travellers just in general

[sage atlas]

if our in-person group used matron they would be exiled instantly probably

[vital nova]

It would at the very least break on customs with Mastermind and Vigormortis, as you could have a MM day be impossible for good to win

[sour harness]

4/28: ship 2 botc characters and tell us why you chose them

I personally think and would be great together because they have the power to make one of the funniest plays in the game

[dense moat]

This was around last month too but I'll say my favorite answer

[sour harness]

Oh was it lol

[dense moat]

[sour harness]

If it's a repeat we can just change it

[dense moat]

On N1, the High Priestess sees the Pixie who saw her. Its a meeting driven by fate itself and the priestess falls for her secret admirer. And most importantly, they are indeed lesbians because I say so

[sour harness]

Well why wouldn't they be lesbians

Qotd: which botc characters are lesbians (this is a joke)

[dense moat]

The editors said they were roommates. Or "good friends"

[sour harness]

They just spend a lot of time together

That's all really

There's definitely nothing else going on

[dense moat]

Well mainly the 2 I just mentioned. Scarlet Woman is bi, but I'm sure she also has a good time with the Queen of Lies. Most of the rest is just who you interpret as female, sine most roles are gender neutral

Slayer could be interesting if you read her as a "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" type of character

[sour harness]

Actual qotd 4/28: which botc characters would absolutely hate each other, and why?

(yes I just did the opposite to not repeat)

are probably morally opposed to each other right

[spiral pollen]

baron and revolutionary

[dense moat]

Way too easy to make them sick on the flight and ruin the view

[spiral pollen]

for obvious reasons

[sour harness]

I was thinking more yaggababble gossip

Actually no gameplay wise they're terrible together but as characters they'd probably get along pretty well

[spiral pollen]

[foggy grotto]

honestly

vs

would be fun to watch

[dense moat]

The old “church v state” debate

[young sonnet]

WWE SmackDown event

[sharp violet]

vs

[fast anchor]

29/4: What's a character you wish you saw less on custom scripts?

That is, a character you think is overused by most scriptbuilders and put in places it doesn't really fit

[dusky minnow]

I wish to see less of those pesky demons, they keep killing all the towsfolk! (I haven't played enough customs to make a judgement on that)

[sour harness]

Yeah we should stop putting evil characters on scripts

Also most outsiders

[shrewd cloud]

Godfather is one I can think of though I don’t blame people as we don’t have that many options for Outsider manipulation. I’ve seen a lot of customs that have Godfather and either no good sources of extra deaths or like, one

[fast anchor]

I’ve got Balloonist on my list for that reason

There are so many scripts where Balloonist doesn’t fit at all but just serves as [+1 Outsider]

[flat lintel]

Outsider manip is needed but you have to pick which one works the best

and if none, sentinel (though it sucks) is okay

Rather not have vortox and balloonist

or godfather being the only double death

[foggy grotto]

Minstrel. dont realize how broken it is on 90% of scripts

[signal holly]

Artist

i have seen probably a dozen scripts go through the "I need another townsfolk, maybe a OPG would be good, how about Artist" -> "oh shit Artist is just the most powerful townsfolk on this script and good needs a nerf, Artist has to go" cycle

[sour harness]

In that case put a seamstress

[sour harness]

The easy solution to this is baron, especially if you can fit a drunk on the script

Literally baron and drunk is all the outsider manip you need, TB did it well

[young sonnet]

Yeah balloonist is probably my pick

[dusty quest]

I'm outing the majority of my own customs for this, but, Lunatic.

Lunatic is only hilarious if done extremely well by the story teller, and has an evil team that works with them.

[indigo osprey]

Lunatic fits well on every script that has magician or poppy; the only reason lunatic works on bmr is goon reasons

Without goon, lunatic is just a gimmick

[foggy grotto]

or marionette

[foggy grotto]

how’s goon relevant to lunatic working?

[indigo osprey]

Lunatic can make goon good

[foggy grotto]

so can a lot of other roles, i don’t think that’s lunatics main purpose

[fast anchor]

There was a discussion on Lunatic further up here on how it’s Minion cover and I really like that

[young sonnet]

Lunatic only works under a specific set of conditions, one of which is hidden outsiders, which the goon and godfather often (and rarely the moonchild) contribute to. The lunatic should not be able to confirm themselves as the lunatic off of outsider count

[cursive cobalt]

Gossip is Bi

No, I will not elaborate

[fast anchor]

looks at your post in #fan-creations checks out

[sweet birch]

Damsel, but she's closeted

[shrewd cloud]

Me when this was a joke Fabled in a text game I played like a year ago

[young sonnet]

Lmfao

Banger fabled

They better print that when they release GSoE or Midnight

[heady cradle]

We're rather late today (4/30) — let's do a quick one.
Pick a BotC character. Who's their favorite and least favorite BotC character, both in-universe and to play?

I would say that absolutely loves playing .

[young sonnet]

Savant's least favorite is Village Idiot for sure

Going from beautifully intricate puzzles to hee-hee I'm a seer that could be drunk! Sounds disdainful

[cursive cobalt]

100%

People keep using it as filler and it’s so irritating

[cursive cobalt]

I have far too many headcanons for everything, but I’ll just answer the latter for now.

would like drawing the or ; low responsibility, gives them some much needed relaxation after a long day

would be ecstatic drawing any of their BMR brethren except grandmother, minstrel, or chambermaid, of which he’ll just complain he got something horrendously boring the whole game and try to bait a kill.

would loath anything that “falls short of intricate and efficient perfection at their given task” (any character with built in unreliability or ST fiat), but will pretend not to care during a game when they draw it.

just wants to Storytell but never gets the chance to.

[dense moat]

loves to play and . They are also the person who always claims Heretic if it’s on script

: Likes to draw Steward or Washer so they can trust someone

HATES drawing Outsider. He’s too good to play as these cheap foreign scum!

:Ojo Likes playing Spy or Widow. Seeing everyone is so refreshing.

[young sonnet]

Gambler definitely hard claims heretic day 1 every game regardless of team or role

[signal holly]

loves to draw
loves to draw
loves to draw
loves drawing and insists on shooting d1

[copper quail]

loves to draw any minion role
loves to draw any demon role

[young sonnet]

Drunk loves drawing sailor

And then picking themselves every night

[copper quail]

True lol
I think likes to be too

[cloud plover]

likes drawing . When you can win either way, the game's all about being loud and having fun!
likes drawing . It's so nice to be trusted for once.
likes drawing YSK. No need to stress about getting killed when you want that to happen.

[young sonnet]

Yaggababble likes drawing gossip for sure

[vital nova]

5/1 What character(s) do you think are most underutilized in customs?

(Apologies if already been asked)

[cursive cobalt]

Balloonist

It has a lot of nuance, but it’s usually just slapped on for Outsider mod that isn’t even real Outsider mod

Pretty sad

[young sonnet]

That's a really good one

[dense moat]

As long as you have some protection roles, it’s not the end of the world to use it and is arguably less fragile than some BMR roles

[young sonnet]

I think farmer or politician? I don't think they're the most

But like, I feel like politician works real well as negative outsider mod where you don't want the drunking potential of drunk or goon

[young sonnet]

This makes sense too

[fast anchor]

doesn’t see a lot of love and usually gets relegated to “oh shit, I need a 13th Townsfolk” on most of the scripts I see it on It’s not a diet Oracle! Stop building scripts as if it is, please!

can be genuinely useful as a scriptbuilding tool beyond being a “default” outsider. Same with to an extent (though Acrobat also tends to be very townsfolky and hard to make harmful)

I wish I saw more scripts with . It’s a fun character whose dynamics change a lot depending on what script it’s on.

[young sonnet]

I hard agree general is not diet oracle

[sour harness]

Wait why isn't it real outsider mod

[fast anchor]

It’s on the good team

Meaning that it doesn’t help evil bluff outsider since you need an evil claiming it to do so

[sour harness]

Ohh ok yeah

[foggy grotto]

ENGINEER!!!

It’s actually a good townsfolk!

But usually people just slap it onto a script with an obvious N1 choice like kazali or baron or summoner!

it’s actually a really nuanced role that can be a lot of fun to play as and against if put in the right scripts!1!1!1!1!1!1

i lober engineer

[indigo osprey]

the challenge with engineer is that a lot of minions are loud and then having an engineer is a potential hard confirm

[smoky mural]

Engineer has a lot of Minions & Demons it flat out doesn't work with

[young sonnet]

whattt nah Riot and Legion and Leviathan and Al-Had are greatttttt

[spiral pollen]

when you put engineer on a script you're making an engineer script

[acoustic chasm]

I think balloonist isn't on many scripts because of how fragile it is to droison

[sweet birch]

WW is kinda nonexistent in customs

[sour harness]

What's an example of a script where it's good

Bc hatter just seems to be the more fun version

[indigo osprey]

if you put it on a script with droison or vortox, everyone and their mommy starts complaining

[acoustic chasm]

I think its more if you put it on a script with poisoner, people complain, and poisoner is by far the most popular minion on scripts

[acoustic chasm]

I feel its for good reason though. Being a balloonist with completely bunk information because the poisoner targeted you one night is really frustrating, and the amount the poisoner shuts you down for really minimal effort is notable

Balloonist with permapoison, like with widow or drunk, is alright becuase that feels more solvable

But a permapoisoned balloonist is often around as useful as a mostly sober balloonist

[indigo osprey]

I keep telling people: you don't have to give the balloonist complete bogus information when they are droisoned.

Like: you can tell your players how you run balloonist/poisoner. For example: a poisoned balloonist still gets 2 minions (for example).

I co-st a game earlier with recluse/balloonist; you don't have to do it, you can just allow people to have some sort of idea of what they can do with their ability

[acoustic chasm]

i guess it's quite easy to run balloonist badly and nerf it a lot

If players come in with the expectation that you will still give balloonist kinda actionable information even if poisoned, then yeah, its not so fragile

[indigo osprey]

actionable doesn't necessarily mean sober; just 'something that can still be used to deduce something'

[acoustic chasm]

what can be deduced

[acoustic chasm]

I guess if you tell your balloonists this, then yes, something can be deduced. I am not too sorry for the poisoner because poisoner still is very strong against balloonist

[acoustic chasm]

Also, if you do run poisoner balloonist as most people currently do, then it makes sense why people are not a huge fan of that interaction. It seems you aren't either, considering you need to add something to the character to make it feel more even.

Of course if you do bootlegger it then you can smooth out many character combos.

Make Golems play Roshambo with Psychopaths.
Change Poppygrower Vortox interactions.
Alejo Snake Charmer.

Like you can do that, and you might make better games if you do

[foggy grotto]

uh um uh i’ll make one

[indigo osprey]

I don't this is a bootlegger: Poisoner-balloonist doesn't have a fixed interaction,neither does poisoner-balloonist; so you aren't breaking any rules. You are just clarifying that within the rules, the presence of the one character doesn't make the other character impossible

[acoustic chasm]

so its more like, you clarify to the balloonist that 'if you are poisoned once, you will learn 2 minions instead of a demon'

For example

or

'You will learn 2 outsiders in your balloonist if there are enough outsiders in play'

[cursive cobalt]

I have one but it has bootlegger and Stormcatcher so it probably doesn’t count

[cursive cobalt]

Counterpoint: the Hatter ability isn’t for the good team

[indigo osprey]

or you just leave it at that, because a sober and healthy balloonist for 4 days is absolutely brutal for evil

[acoustic chasm]

but those are the types of statements they would learn. fair enough.

[signal holly]

the issue with poisoner-balloonist isn't that

it's that the fact that individual pieces of balloonist info are meaningless and it only makes sense without context makes it even harder to detect poison, because you can't tell which night was poisoned

[cursive cobalt]

Yeah that’s the thing that makes Balloonist Poisoner suck

[signal holly]

I personally think Vortox/Balloonist is fine, Recluse/Balloonist is fine

[cursive cobalt]

Your info is essentially one piece of info spread over four days

Damaging one quarter of it is functionally identical to damaging any other quarter

[signal holly]

like it's rough on the balloonist, but it's normal levels of "this character screws you over" rough

[cursive cobalt]

So it’s impossible to solve for which nights you could have been droisoned on

[signal holly]

Spy is really mean to Ravenkeepers and nobody complains about that

[cursive cobalt]

Any of the four would produce identical outcomes

[cursive cobalt]

A decent number of people do, actually

[signal holly]

the issue is Poisoner specifically, because the only real 'counter' to Poisoner is "well I think I was poisoned n2 so that means nobody else could have been"

and Balloonist breaks that

because even if you're very confident you learned two minions, you've done everything right and used socials and other peoples' info to figure out your info is bad... you still don't know which night was the poisoned ping

[signal holly]

okay sure

but it's clearly an acceptable interaction

I think Vortox/Balloonist is on the level of Spy/Ravenkeeper or maybe Vortox/Investigator whereas Poisoner/Balloonist is on the level of Po/Mayor

[cursive cobalt]

Those seem like pretty arbitrary comparisons to make

In all of those scenarios, a Townsfolk loses their entire ability to an evil one

I don’t see what makes some acceptable and some not

[signal holly]

the differentiating factor to me is whether the townsfolk loses their entire ability to the potential of one

the Investigator or Balloonist can try to solve for Vortox, and learn "okay either this is my info or it's Vortox"

a ton of characters already have that interaction with Vortox and it's fine (Math particularly comes to mind)

whereas if there's any chance of it being a Po game the Mayor can't really play for the Mayor win, because there won't even be a final three to try for it

they don't get to use their ability to help figure out whether or not something could interfere with it, they just have to hope the character that ruins them isn't in play and also convince everyone else that it's worth keeping them around despite that possibility

(and yes, Spy-Ravenkeeper, but "I'm not dying at night" is a way that the Ravenkeeper can try to figure out Spy while the Mayor can't. this is a weak distinction but one feels way more okay to me than the other and this is my best idea as to why)

[acoustic chasm]

Ravenkeeper didn't have to pick the spy.

Its definitely within their control

But yeah I just feel intuitively balloonist is very fragile, and even with your fix aidrian, what happens if the balloonist is poisoned twice. Do you respect the poisoner's play or the balloonist's information? The interaction isn't ideal as we need to make rules for the two characters to even play slightly nicely together, so its understandable why balloonist isn't often seen on scripts.

[sour harness]

I'll hear you out tho

[sour harness]

Yeah ik

[fast anchor]

5/2: Relevant tweet attached. Go nuts.

(alt text: The Sonic Heroes Rule: if you have any trio of characters, you can fit them into Speed, Fly, and Power roles with an image of the Sonic Heroes boxart with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles)

My easy answer is as speed/fly/power

also comes to mind

[sour harness]

[oak ice]

[cursive cobalt]

Fly would interpret as versatility

[young sonnet]

[cursive cobalt]

https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1204159565147676762

[sharp violet]

[fresh shard]

[vale oxide]

(I've got no idea what the tweet means)

[dense moat]

Riot is fastest game around, Fang Gu “flies” to a new target”, and Leviathan is slow but all powerful if you don’t heed its rules

[fast anchor]

Give this monsta a Sonic game

[dense moat]

Tbf, I don’t actually remember how power applies for Knuckles. But I definitely get Sonic and Tails

[acoustic chasm]

i am trying my best and i cant do it

[fast anchor]

hes a strong guy!

[acoustic chasm]

[sage atlas]

[dense moat]

I mean in game mechanics

I generally understand Knuckles as strong, but don’t know how he plays in Sonic games

[foggy grotto]

they each went as a different character that fits one of these categories

[flat lintel]

hatter is broken. esp in text, it can suck playing a game for a week and the evil team last minute suddenly switches demons and minions and everything and becomes refreshed with their new and kills

[fast anchor]

hatter is funny though

[flat lintel]

❌ not as a good player who wants to solve the game

my biggest advice is if you want to run hatter, don't run it with the additional rule unless you and your players agree

[sour harness]

Yeah I prefer without the additional rule lol

[flat lintel]

no, it's not more "fun" to run it that way

[sour harness]

There are other ways for the demon to move

[flat lintel]

and if you're putting and on the same script, think again