secret thing

[dense moat]

Huntsman could be a bit of an interesting everyman who tries to put everyone else info together while finding the Damsel (played tastefully as possible)

On TB, I’d probably like to see Slayer or Invest as the main character. For SNV, I’d choose Dreamer or Flowergirl (Savant would be more like the Matrix’s Oracle). For BMR, I’d probably either cast Gambler as a reckless anime type hero or maybe Excorcist

[young sonnet]

Oh yeah, obviously social deduction games shouldn't be played for money if you have any kind of ethics or morality. But the people who do create and star in reality TV tend to have neither so I think it's fine lol

Tbh idk, some of my friends watch it, I think two weeks sounds right and yeah the challenges would probably offer extra info or bonus abilities and each real day would simulate an in-game day. They would definitely have guest stars or fan favorites from previous seasons travel in

[acoustic chasm]

I think the Undertaker can be a Sherlock Holmes style hero, especially when they find out a character's profession simply by looking at their dead body. Also gets a dramatic 'reveal' each night someone goes to the gallows of someone's true calling.

[sage atlas]

This was the 4000th message in this channel

Happy 4000 🥳

[ebon idol]

trouble brewing from imp's perspective

[dusty moon]

I think TB from the FT’s perspective makes the most sense

A murder mystery series following a psychic is a really cool idea

[cloud plover]

I think there’s a lot of potential for a old-school tragedy viewed from the Spy’s perspective. We know everything from the start, and we get to watch as good slowly sabotages themselves into terrible positions even as they do their best to do the right thing. Bluffs drain credibility, false worlds are tunneled on, etc

[heady cradle]

Ooh, that would indeed be very cool.

3/30: Congratulations! You've been accepted into Ravenzwood University. You are going to spending your freshman year sharing a double with one BotC character — who would you want to room with (and who would you desperately avoid rooming with if at all possible)?

[exotic bone]

hmm
well definitely want to avoid rooming with a corpse is incredibly unhygenic

[acoustic chasm]

I think rooming with an is pretty cool. Both creative but also dead smart. Seems like an interesting person to be around

[cloud plover]

Room with the Librarian! Dealing with loud roommates will 100% get me expelled or arrested.
Secondary choices: Spy and Godfather. Knowing someone who knows literally everything going on while still flying under the radar would be super cool, and beating up people who go after the loners is very based

Avoid rooming with the Shabaloth! They keep eating my food!
Secondary avoidances: Gossip and Sailor. Stop talking after 10pm, and stop bringing your friends to get wasted in our room!!!

[acoustic chasm]

I'd keep away from the because I don't want to be talked about behind my back. But the character I certainly do NOT want to be roomed with is . Everyone would be either in it and I wouldn't be, or I will be lied to and be paranoid for my entire course.

[dense moat]

Room with the Knight. They may have clanky armor but they are probably very polite.

Secondary Choices: Devils Advocate

They may be pedantic but are probably really smart without a Demon summoning

Don’t room with the Cannibal. They probably smell horribly of dead flesh and look messed up.

Secondary Avoidance: Don’t room with Damsel. From the “Don’t touch the hair”, she’s probably really spoiled and entitled, in or out of danger

[flat lintel]

i was gonna write a play with the empath as the main character

[devout quail]

i like the idea of exorcist as the main character where the climax of the series is realizing they exorcised the demon like two nights ago

[heady cradle]

I'd love to room with the High Priestess, because they always seem to know who I can talk to, or the Tea Lady. They've always got my back (so long as our neighbor is nice enough, but we can always request a room change).
Rooming with the Evil Twin would suck because I'd get caught in a ton of sibling drama, and the Vizier and Baron just seem like aristocratic asses. I wouldn't mind the Godfather, though; knowing them would mean that people probably wouldn't fuck with me.

[sharp violet]

Room with the recluse - they need a friend and we can play video games late at night together

[heady cradle]

Rooming with the Recluse has the same problems as rooming with the Evil Twin

People are just gonna be really annoyed at ya

[fresh shard]

31/3: What's a BOTC rule or character ability that took you far too long to parse correctly?

I'll start: I only realised today that the Godfather is "-1 or +1" and not "-1 to +1", so it can't not modify the outsider count.

[heady cradle]

(is there anywhere I can find that PNG)

[dusky minnow]

Mathmatician feels like a nightmare to understand at the start for both ST and player

[dense moat]

I can never remeber that Huntsman and Chambermaid only act on alive players. Also, I sometimes forget when to wake Canni

[pseudo fulcrum]

I always forget that you have to nominate again on day 3 of a riot game (probably because I rarely play with riot)

[acoustic chasm]

Specifically that it only sees abilities malfunction due to other characters

The 'even when dead' clause tripped me up because I knew the spy could get executed by a virgin, but not seen as a townsfolk by the Undertaker in my early days.

Savant getting two false statements is funny

It always confused me whether the minions making the damsel guess had to be alive to make it.

[heady cradle]

You give it out as a demon bluff.
The use of the Mathematician is confusing the fuck out of the good team.

[mild notch]

Before I went back to re-read the ability, I used to think Harpy kills were executions like Cerenovus kills

[flat lintel]

But than a player asks you how Math works. What do you do? You don’t even know how it works LOL, how are others meant to?

[heady cradle]

Like, I can explain in theory how math works

I can even answer how math works in weird edge cases given time to think

But like

[flat lintel]

but that time tells the players, you don’t know math

[heady cradle]

Sorry?

[fast anchor]

It took me a couple games before I learned that Zombuul registers as dead to itself for the purposes of blocking a night kill after getting executed

[night ingot]

Shabaloth res is BEFORE the kill, not after

I thought that a shab kill was before so in F4 the shab instawins

but thats not true

[shrewd cloud]

Also thought the wrong thing for a long time too though tbf that’s just on the way the ability text is structured

Almanac is our hero though

[night ingot]

Math on SNV isnt that bad fortunately

because the only non-info thing that triggers math is pit hag

Math on non-SNV is insane

Consider mathematician on Lleeches and Legions

Poisoned tea lady that doesnt save a neighbor is a math 1

Acrobat that doesnt die from their ability beccause of being tea lady protected is a math 1

Sailor that dies to self-drunking is a math 0

Its even worse with subjective characters like fisherman

[minor pier]

That's also mostly a logical, physical limitation: can't know who to res if the Dead reminders were already moved to new targets.

[night ingot]

ye

that makes a lot of sense as well

Anyway yeah Math with spy/recluse is also a moment

Math on SNV is also fine because its limited to 3/4 demons as well as 3 characters that rarely proc math anyway

so realistically youre never getting anything above a 3 in games

its really a matter of whether you get a 0 or a 1 on night one

[vale oxide]

It's a sticker on this server

[fast anchor]

I’d like to room with the Chef . If I get on their good side, maybe I’d get some free food?

As for who I’d avoid? Probably most of the Demons. I’m not trying to get night-killed! Agree with Gossip as a pretty bad roomie though.

[dense moat]

4/1: TPI has released so many good characters. But sill none from Trouble Brewing, Sects & Violets or Bad Moon Rising. Which of those characters are you hoping gets released this month?

[cursive cobalt]

I think Savant being released will be interesting
Surely it’s getting a lot of changes though

[pseudo fulcrum]

I heard Steven say something about Savant being a joke and not actually released

[sharp violet]

Well actually, the did release one of them today - the Fool has officially been released

As for myself - I’d like to see Pacifist come out, I want to see it how they make it work as a Townsfolk and not an Outsider

[acoustic chasm]

personally looking forward to Washerwoman

I know its controversial because it does look bonkers strong compared to steward

But I think we can push the power of characters

also are grandmother and spy confirmed to be on the same script together? I think they work very well

[sweet birch]

Idk but I'm really glad they finally came out with that LM writeup

[foggy grotto]

butler seems really fun, im sure the community will love it

[dense moat]

They’ll have so much fun social reading the people they choose each night and convincing them to vote

Also STs will love tracking it

[fresh shard]

I'm curious how they will solve the Butler not actually having a game mechanical ability

2/4: What's a specific change you'd like to see to a current experimental character?

[fast anchor]

Poppy Grower —> into the garbage

More seriously: one of these

• Lleech changes to "you die if & only if your host is dead” to solve a whole lot of immortal lleech problems
• Choirboy should probably learn who the Demon is if a Minion kills them, too (it’s too easy for a Psycho or Assassin to dispatch them)
• RealMonsta
• a stronger huntsman? I don’t find as-written, each night, or each night* + chosen minions drunk you all too fun

[timber kestrel]

Lycan to not kill Outsiders

Or, yknow, yeet it

[indigo osprey]

I sometimes play poppygrower with a bootlegger rule that makes it manageable for newer players. But it hasn't been too much of an issue, even with never players tbh.

[foggy grotto]

patters huntsman, actually useful king

[fresh shard]

Patters huntsman?

[foggy grotto]

each night (maybe * i forgot) , pick a player. If they are the damsel, they become a not in play townsfolk. If you pick an evil player, you are poisoned for the rest of the game.” or something like that

[cursive cobalt]

Not experimental, but Pacifist —> Powerful Pacifist so people will shut up about it requiring ST fiat to run

In regards to actual experimentals:

• Huntsman: Either double its ability usages or make it Each Night*; remove Outsider mod possibility
• King: Evil players know who the King is
• Choirboy: The Choirboy’s ability triggers when an evil player kills or brings the King out of play
• Cult Leader: Full rework in that it learns alignment rather than becoming an alignment. Forming a Cult does something good for Good if the CL sees good (gives them info of some sort, possibly one of two players as the Demon), and turns them evil otherwise.
• Engineer: Once per game, at night*; acts after droisoning minions, but has a “created minions act that night” clause.
• Knight : Players learned will never be the Demon, even if the Knight is dead.

• Fearmonger: Add “players cannot self nominate” clause, or otherwise word it so that that’s deterred.
• Vizier: Full rework somehow, current iteration is ass
• Poppy Grower: Add “you are sober and healthy” clause
• Steward: Players learned will never be Evil, even if the Steward is dead.
• General: Officialize 5 star General
• Puzzlemaster: change “1 player is drunk” to “1 Townsfolk is drunk”
• Snitch: Remove from the game (or turn into a Fabled)

[pseudo fulcrum]

yeah, i think twice per game huntsman is a slept on idea

i'm surprised that there aren't any twice per game roles at all actually

[dusky minnow]

Any specific reason why you'd like to add the Knight/Steward "can never be X" clause?

[cursive cobalt]

To make them more unique and less sad on scripts where they otherwise would be

The info they currently get is very bland

[sweet birch]

Yeetus deletus

[dense moat]

So to clarify, does this mean in a Fang Gu game, you could put an Outsider in the ping and they would never be jumped? You can put any pings and they can never be Demon whether it’s be expected on the grim or not?

It would be kinda funky for showing Minions in an Imp game because if the Imp starpasses without knowing, that could just be a loss in some cases

[sharp violet]

Another idea: replace all instances of “the Damsel” with “an/1 Outsider”

[pseudo fulcrum]

No that's way too strong

I think people don't realise how strong hitting the damsel as a huntsman is

It's happened three times in my games and it's incredibly strong

It confirms the damsel and huntsman, and adds an extra townsfolk ability

[fast anchor]

It’s not that player-friendly since it’s easy to forget if you’ve spent just once

[cloud plover]

I know the question asks for "specific changes," but I don't think I'm smart enough to design those properly 😅 Still... if I had to...

• Any change that makes it so that their information has concrete mechanical implications and isn't just "well I wonder how this could be important today." Maybe "Each night, learns a player that was sober and healthy for all of that night and the previous day?"
• Something to make it more resistant to droisoning? "Each night, pick a player. You learn how many character types you have picked over the course of the game."
• Risk/Reward measure is wayyyyy off balance, feels bad to draw and play. "Each night, pick a player. If they are the Damsel, they become a not-in-play townsfolk and another Good player becomes the Damsel. Minions gets their guess refreshed."
• I get the vibe TPI was going for, but it just doesn't feel right to me... "Each day, any player may publicly claim Idiot and make a unique guess to a player's alignment. Each night,* if you publicly claimed that day, learn how many guesses were correct." (remove the +0 to +2 modifier)
• Outed evil is fun, but Vizier is too easy to play around, gumming up games for Good and Evil alike. The main idea is "manipulating executions" though, so how about this: "You cannot die during the day, and all players know you are in play. Each night, you may choose to allow an additional execution tomorrow. If more than one execution occurs, you may choose a player the following night. They die."

[sweet birch]

Three times out of how many it's been in play though

[cursive cobalt]

HP being turned into a bad Math seems meh

The appeal of the role is the interesting nature of its info

[pseudo fulcrum]

yeah, you're not meant to meta the st and think "Why have i been shown this person?" you're meant to go talk to them and hopefully the thing that the st wanted to happen will happen

[young sonnet]

^^^^^

Like a lot of bad STs already run it as "this player was good, sober, and healthy last night" so to codify that is kinda crazy imo

[cursive cobalt]

HP is like Dreamer

It requires both the right script and the right ST mindset not to be

Busted Steward

Inverse BH

Whatever you want to call it

[young sonnet]

What do you mean by manageable? If you mean that droisoned PG death still shows evil team, I'm on board.
Also "newer players" shouldn't be playing with poppy grower lmao

[foggy grotto]

ngl making balloonist immune to droison would be fine

it’s powerful yeah but it’s adds an outsider

and also people still have to believe the balloonist and they have to survive until D4

[fast anchor]

idk i strongly strongly disagree with changing HP. It shouldn’t be something mechanical; it should be mostly social (does this player have good info? do they need to figure out that they’re poisoned? are they evil and have a bluff that’s falling apart? are they pushing on people that it doesn’t make logical sense for them to be evil?)

I agree with piglix in that regard that it’s kind of missing the point to try and attach anything else to HP

[cloud plover]

Eh, I see where y'all are coming from, but in that case my specific change might just be to remove it from the game 😂 No shade if you all enjoy it, but I need to be able to worldbuild and "this information can mean all these things" just makes my head hurt

[signal holly]

that's the beauty of script design, not everything has to work for every player

I will basically never play a script with Legion and tend to avoid Heretic/Mez/Cult Leader - but if other people enjoy those characters they're welcome to play those scripts

the only character I would fundamentally rework is Poppy Grower, because it just has so many terrible rules interactions

[sweet birch]

Genuinely PG should just be

1. Sober/healthy
2. Checking every night for life instead of death trigger (cleans up barber/pithag)
3. Deleted because tbh Magician is strictly better

[cursive cobalt]

That’s kind of the point of guidance roles lol

They’re not meant to provide information in the traditional sense

They’re meant to provide direction

Guide you to your own conclusions rather than simply showing you an answer

[cloud plover]

Everything I can say about this basically boils down to "thanks I hate it" XD I'm fully willing to admit that my inability to reason around this information is an issue that rests squarely on my own shoulders though 👍

[young sonnet]

Highly disagree with 3, PG is completely different in how it effects the game, and if you could even directly compare the two roles (which I'm saying you can't) magician would be the "strictly" weaker role
The first two points are exactly what I want tho

[cursive cobalt]

PG is overall better than Magician because it offers evil less counterplay

Instead of knowing, say, 4-9 people 100% who aren't on their team

They know 0

[young sonnet]

That's not how I'd describe it but you're correct and agreeing with me so I'll only say my perspective if necessary lol

[cursive cobalt]

I mean

I think Magician and PG are similiar roles

But not congruent ones

[foggy grotto]

the only thing i prefer PG to Magician for is for lunatics

[cursive cobalt]

It's like with Investigator - Noble, Tea Lady - Pacifist, Sweetheart - Puzzlemaster

Just because two roles share the same general niche doesn't mean that they're interchangable

They carry out their respective purposes in fundementally different ways

[young sonnet]

Yeah I hard agree with that

[cursive cobalt]

Magician fundamentally harbors a different playstyle and dynamic compared to PG

Despite both fitting into the "disrupt evil coordination" niche

Magician has higher highs but lower lows

Doesn't mean its strictly worse

Its just less reliable, which inherently does make it less consistently useful comparative to its sister role

Magician also has a more directly proactive playstyle

[sweet birch]

I understand this but in my experience magician borks evil comms enough as is

[cursive cobalt]

Since whisper tracking is a skill it can take advantage of massively to catch conspiring minions early

And baiting is a lot more appropriately effective

[young sonnet]

Yeah that's why I used the quotes, I don't think they're directly comparable (they're different approaches to disrupting evil coordination), I was just using their own words and thought process against them

[cursive cobalt]

PG is theoretically, realistically, and pretty much universally considered overpowered

Magician offers another option for said disruption niche

It's less straightforward, but still very powerful in its own right

I don't think they step on each other's toes that much

[sweet birch]

It's healthier I think

[sweet birch]

Would you put them both on a script together?

[cursive cobalt]

No

[young sonnet]

Never

[cursive cobalt]

Putting them on the same script breeds redundency

Which is usually something you'd prefer to avoid

[sweet birch]

There's very few other roles I would avoid that with for the same reason

[young sonnet]

It's not just that, it's that they promote different roles to surround them

[cursive cobalt]

Yeah

[young sonnet]

It's like people thinking leech fits on BMR cause it can survive protection. The leech wants to be on a script where you aren't 100% comfortable with executing good players all the time

[cursive cobalt]

Magician works far better with Pointers

[young sonnet]

Survive *execution

[cursive cobalt]

Specifically those which produce early game leads

[young sonnet]

Yeah

[cursive cobalt]

Poppy Grower works better with high-pressure Townsfolk (axis characters)

As lack of evil coordination strips them of reliable counterplay against those Townsfolk

[young sonnet]

Mhm

[cursive cobalt]

Its a common misconception that lumping together similiar mechanics makes for a good script

[young sonnet]

Yeah I know lol

[cursive cobalt]

Theres a reason "all droison scripts" and "all madness scripts" never fly

And Lleech is an interesting case where its ability to survive execution isn't meant to be super utilitarian

It's simply a means to an end

A simple barricade to facilitate their real ability (forcing town to kill a poisoned player rather than them to win)

Not a deception ability like the DA

And since it was never designed with execution survival in mind, it works exceptionally poorly with execution survival

Despite being able to mimic their effects

Because the host dynamic crumples when town's survival instict dips

[young sonnet]

My issue with magician is that it's so heavily dependent on player count. One minion script? Oh yeah you're fucked buddy there's no safe way of dismantling that situation.
Two minion script? The two minions independently go to different demon candidates and ask them to name the other minions they saw. Yeah the magician can luck into asking the demon that question, but it's pretty much never gonna happen cause you're playing with 10-12 total people at that count. Same thing with 3 minions, and then you just keep the minion you want secret the most on the backline.
The argument is always the magician can trace who that minion that approaches them talks to to try and make an evil team but in actuality that's pretty much useless info because the minion knows they're being watched and only serves as confirmation bias off of worlds real (or bluffed) info roles generate.

Sorry not "script" I meant to say "game"

[cursive cobalt]

The Magician ability being turned into "You start knowing a Minion" seems pretty powerful in its own right

Especially when you take into consideration that in order for such coordination to happen, said minions have to talk to each other

Magician is the role in which whisper tracking is the most useful for

Next to maybe BH and Invest

[young sonnet]

Yeah but that's the thing

Bounty hunter and investigator can effectively whisper track because they're not known to the evil team (unless they out early)

Magician is known from the get go

[cursive cobalt]

The confirmation bias does exist

However

Just like PG

Even if you don't directly find the evils

You're still limiting who they can talk to safely

You'll likely never receive any hard confirmation due to wifom from the minions in question

[young sonnet]

I mean I don't really think any coordination needs to happen unless they're new players to a magician script. After players have seen and talked about it 2-3 times it becomes pretty consistent behavior that requires at the absolute most a glance or two to communicate

[cursive cobalt]

Magician is a role that diminishes in power greatly based on two variables

How accustomed the group grows to it, and how long the game goes on for

After D1

The Magician's power is already substantially weaker than it was before then

Because minion coordination happening early allows them to plan around the prospects of their circumstance in a way the Magician can't accurately predict

Therefore, the Magician's goal should just be to disrupt said coordination as early as possible

It does require a bit of luck though

[young sonnet]

Nah PG is a totally different gameplay style from both evil's perspective and PG's perspective
The PG is able to "secretly confess to being evil" in the hopes of getting evil to out themselves. Magician just has to sit there and watch everybody. And if they try to go talk privately with someone to not seem like the obvious magician player, they gut their own info

"a bit"? I think it's a lot of luck

[cursive cobalt]

I'm talking about a similarity between their niches, not their dynamics or playstyles

"Limit evil coordination" hosts a relatively broad spectrum of utilities

[young sonnet]

No you said the confirmation bias exists in PG too

[cursive cobalt]

In the same way "protect good players" or "disrupt evil abilities" do

[young sonnet]

Unless I misunderstood

[cursive cobalt]

The comparison I was making was that the PG and Magi both limit who evil can talk to safely

Not the confirmation bias

[young sonnet]

Ah okay

We already agreed on that though lmao

[cursive cobalt]

I mean I dont disagree with you there

Magician is a very luck based character if you try to play it actively

That's just how it is

[young sonnet]

Ah 👍

[cursive cobalt]

Passive Magician play also often doesn't get you anywhere though

Which puts the role in a tough spot

Its more of a noob-trap or an early game splinter for evil than anything

[young sonnet]

Yeah

[cursive cobalt]

Compared to the PG's constantly oppressive presence

[young sonnet]

I think mole accomplishes the flavor of magician better than magician does

I think magician still has a right to exist and is interesting

[cursive cobalt]

The Mole is just what happens when you take the Magician concept to the extreme

[young sonnet]

I just don't think it produces much value most of the time

That's partially why I prefer magician on leviathan scripts compared to other scripts

That's an environment I think it works in

Cause one minion being outed there is very high value

And the whisper tracking is way more effective

[pseudo fulcrum]

what do you guys think about this

[fresh shard]

Yeah I think that solves most issues, treat it as an ongoing suppression effect rather than a delayed trigger

Arguably that has the issue that a poppy grower who is droisoned even momentarily is then useless, but tbh anything that tones Poppy Grower down is welcome, and making the ability more "delicate" is a good way to achieve that

[pseudo fulcrum]

It fixes most problems, one that still exists is that PG is still the optimal choice for philo but it fixes so many other issues that it's probably worth it

[cursive cobalt]

I like it

[cursive cobalt]

Philo has a lot of optimal choices

Pacifist and Minstrel for instance

Have no downside when chosen

[foggy grotto]

4/3 what’s the most slept on role(s) when it comes to custom script building?

[cursive cobalt]

General

It works so well in so many areas and its niche is so uniquely fun

Yet people either treat as generic filler or forget it exists

[indigo osprey]

Atheist; works on every script

[heady cradle]

I strongly believe that High Priestess feels like worse ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ General

Like

It ends up being better, in play

But design-wise, General is similar IMO

[valid garden]

Leviathan

[dense moat]

Undertaker: I feel like people exclusively use Cannibal over it and while Canni is generally more helpful since you can lie about evils, it would be nice to see shovel friend more

[young sonnet]

This and High Priestess

[young sonnet]

I like this

[acoustic chasm]

In a lot of scripts I've been making soldier manages to creep on a frankly odd number of times

Its pretty neat

[fast anchor]

would something like a poisoner hitting the PG cause evils to learn each other? what happens when the PG sobers up?

[fresh shard]

I actually like the aspect of "if you are ever droisoned you effectively lose your ability permanently"

It means that your ability is very strong but also very fragile, and you don't necessarily know for sure if it's still working

[indigo osprey]

maybe I am down to bootlegging the poppygrower in that way

just for experimental purposes

[flat lintel]

Nah

Think about why we hate Poisoner + Balloonist

It makes Balloonist info useless for adding +1 Outsider

An info role that has a negative effect

The Poppy’s only purpose is to confuse evils

And when it’s temporarily snipped by the Poisoner, it’s not a feels good interaction

Moreover, it becomes a blank townsfolk for no reason

Imagine being snipped N1 by a poisoner. With roles like seamstress, you at least get info

Or Soldier, you have night power

[fresh shard]

I'm not sure how a PG getting sniped by a poisoner is meaningfully worse than a YSK getting sniped by the poisoner in this respect

And a PG's effect when not poisoned is far stronger than most YSKs

[flat lintel]

because the YSK is a one night wonder, PG gets snipped at any point it’s GG

ysk can be snipped on n1, and use their ability on n2

[fresh shard]

A PG who's sniped mid game has still served the purpose of confusing evils for long enough to be disruptive so I don't understand the comparison to strictly negative Balloonist either; that suggests that a temporarily active PG is worse than no PG at all which is just objectively false

[flat lintel]

can poppy do that?

Also is Poppy grower even THAT broke?

[fresh shard]

YSK literally can't choose to delay until night 2

It's you start knowing

[flat lintel]

I would argue being that I’ve played enough Lleech Poppy games that it’s not

[flat lintel]

At least in TB, YSK poisoned can be tracked

and be deciphered to mean something

[fresh shard]

I think it's generally understood that Poppy Grower is the strongest townsfolk in the game and it's not close

Maybe Lycan gives it some competition

[flat lintel]

Subjective

I could argue Snakecharmer is

[young sonnet]

It's definitely lycan over PG

A confirmed lycan is gonna be gg lights out evil team 70% of the time, depending on script

[dense moat]

And Lycan is usually either Demon or a real Lycan. The latter is hard to shud down AND the former harder to bluff

[young sonnet]

Idk how you can't see it's meaningfully worse
YSK can figure out they've been poisoned when their info gets disproven, then, if there's only one source of poison n1 they can confirm other info couldn't have been poisoned
Poisoned PG will likely never figure out they've been poisoned n1

[fresh shard]

Would you say a drunk Poppygrower is unsolvable?

[young sonnet]

No

That's got outsider count to figure it out

A sniped n1 PG never has a chance to effect the game through their ability

With this verison

Version*

[fresh shard]

I'm still not entirely convinced that's a massive problem, but even if it is, it seems like more of an issue with the poisoner (which as already pointed out is often problematic on customs anyway) than the revised PG. It certainly seems less problematic than "if you are poisoned at the wrong time or it's the wrong demon, your ability effectively gains even if dead".

No Dashii also has a similar interaction I guess, where it's unlikely a ND poisoned PG will ever notice

[young sonnet]

I think it's equally problematic

Like all PG needs is a "you are sober and healthy clause" imo. Then the question of balance comes into play, which is a separate question

And if it's still too powerful, then you could discuss a nerf like "if you lose this ability after n1"

[fresh shard]

If balancing isn't a concern, a more elegant solution would be to make the PG block minion/demon info at the start and just never give the info out

And then give it [+1 Minion] or something

[young sonnet]

That's not elegant at all lmao what

[fresh shard]

But yeah I guess making it immune to droisoning probably would work, at least for vs poisoner specifically (ND probably gets worse)

[young sonnet]

Adding a whole new mechanic/set up requirement is like the opposite of elegant

Elegance is usually about beauty in simplicity lol

At least in a math context

[young sonnet]

Also allows pukka to be on the same script, no dashii is also better with this change

Because they can learn their evil team

[fresh shard]

Does a ND poisoned Poppy Grower still block evil info in the current iteration?

[signal holly]

no

i've considered having poppy grower give itself the "you are sober and healthy" ability during the minion/demon info step as a workaround but that starts to be pretty inelegant

and on the point of poisoned Poppy I think the important part is that a Poppy being poisoned once and having their ability effectively eliminated by that... no longer has any reason for evil to kill them

so evil now provably knows a townsfolk who they can leave alive to no mechanical detriment and try to frame, and the poppy has no way of tracing it

it's not necessarily unbalanced, because Poppy is very powerful so it having some interactions that are awful for it is still fine from that perspective - and probably still better than current Poppy on any script with a character that has bad Poppy interactions (Vortox, Pukka, Cannibal, etc) but it's super unfun for the Poppy to know that's possible but not really have any way to identify it

[fresh shard]

I did wonder if it would be interesting for a poisoned PG to learn that their ability is no longer working once they sober up but that's probably excessively jank

[fresh shard]

This is a fair point I hadn't considered

[flat lintel]

My bad for my bad explaining

[pseudo fulcrum]

I've been making a list of some fixes for characters and balloonist is one I've got an idea for to fix this exact issue

It still needs a bit of thinking through but it could work

[fresh shard]

4/4 (ha, you can't tell I'm European today): What roles do you often see on custom scripts that you feel usually work well?

[flat lintel]

No you beat me to it

[fresh shard]

Probably had a bit of a head start :p

[flat lintel]

American 😦

[heady cradle]

Nearly every script can use a Noble, I think

[foggy grotto]

poisoner is always solid, unless there’s a balloonist

[fast anchor]

Poisoner tends to make a lot of things unsolvable and kinda frustrating imo

[fast anchor]

There are few scripts a Drunk doesn’t work on.

Same with the Imp

[fresh shard]

Agree, poisoner is great in TB but I often personally find custom games with it unbalance it one way or the other because it very rarely gets correctly identified

[foggy grotto]

just don’t add 838394739 sources of droison and i think it’s fine

[sage atlas]

Widow works pretty well

[dense moat]

Seamstress and Chef are both solid basic info that fit on a fair amount of things. Less so BMR types but even sometimes then

[fresh shard]

I think a lot of the ST dependent roles like HP and Fisherman work decently well on most scripts

[fast anchor]

I think over time people have realized HP isn’t as splashable as once believed

it risks becoming “each night, learn a soberhealthy good player” on the wrong script which is not very fun

[valid garden]

Fish is one of my favourite roles of all time

[cursive cobalt]

Noble shows up literally everywhere

[cursive cobalt]

It was never splashable

Fish HP and General all have very well defined niches

People just treat them as if they fit everywhere when they clearly don’t

[fast anchor]

The vibe I got from the community when HP dropped was that it was a role that could fit everywhere when it really isn’t, and I think people have realized that

[cloud plover]

Would soldier count here? Sometimes it feels like frame fodder, but I can’t name a script where it’s ever felt really awful. Just a solid townie that won’t die and gets framed a ton

[mild notch]

Soldier might feel a little bad on scripts that have ST-picked kills for most or all of the Demons

[fresh shard]

Pretty rough with Al-Had aswell

[cursive cobalt]

Soldier is pretty mid in terms of what its put on a script for

You did describe it pretty well

Its mostly just frame fodder/generic padding

If you want survival

There are like, 6 roles that do it better

[valid garden]

Investegator

[cursive cobalt]

Ok that one's actually true

Investigator needs more love

[signal holly]

in terms of generically reasonable roles that can fit on most scripts I feel like most of the answers are going to be Townsfolk, because outsider/minion/demon suites are going to be very tailored to what the script is doing

slept-on non-Townsfolk... maybe Klutz? probably the closest I can think of to a generically usable outsider and I don't think it ends up on that many scripts

other than Butler but let's not start Butler discourse

[cursive cobalt]

Klutz fits literally everywhere

It's my go-to "interesting dynamic" Outsider

Because its dynamic is just always interesting

[young sonnet]

^^^^^^

I also think moonchild can fit a lot of places

[signal holly]

eh... disagree, if moonchild can safely die d1 it's very confirmatory

[foggy grotto]

hard disagree ngl

moonchild is a townsfolk unless the script is very specific

klutz is a better choice on customs 90% of the time

[signal holly]

extra death sources making it bluffable helps but honestly i think the main thing that makes moonchild (and several BMR outsiders) an outsider is the existence of Godfather

[young sonnet]

I mean I think all 3 of them work great as "my script has not quite enough info, but I don't want to put something in that's too powerful" it's not the best environment for any of the three of them, but it works in a pinch when you only have so many characters

[signal holly]

High Priestess is definitely the least splashable imo

it really needs a script that supports it to be interesting and balanced

[young sonnet]

Oh I hard agree with that. I'm just saying on any script with multiple reasons for night deaths, it's slept on
It's not gonna be a perfect match, but I think people rotate the same couple outsiders on scripts wayyyy too much

[signal holly]

honestly even on a script with multiple reasons for night deaths I don't think Moonchild is that great of a fit

imo Outsiders work best when executing them immediately is not an effective strategy

and Godfather is very necessary for that with most BMR Outsiders I think

but especially Moonchild

[young sonnet]

Yeah I agree godfather does a lot for BMR outsiders, but scripts with decent droisoning also make moonchild an outsider, like I think we're just thinking about different types of scripts based on our preconceived biases based on the scripts we see and interact with

[cursive cobalt]

This one I disagree on

Moonchild is too townsfolkey on most scripts

[cursive cobalt]

The ironic part is that all three of these characters are very powerful

People just dont use their info properly

[young sonnet]

They are very powerful

I agree

But they're not hard info

They're not mechanical

The rationality shouldn't always be immediately obvious (except half the time with general, it depends on the script)

[cursive cobalt]

General is the gamestate checker

It's feedback provides information about everything that has ever happened and everything that will happen

It's just up to the General to utilize that information and act on it

[young sonnet]

So I'm not saying the ST should neuter the info they give HP or Fisherman, I'm saying they should have more interesting reasons, think more outside of the box and these roles fit on more scripts
Saying shit like "trust [player name]" or just sending HP to a sober healthy good player is boring as hell and strong as fuck
Send HP to the mutant early on and then don't sit in on the convo
Tell fisherman that "one of your neighbors is lying for a good reason"
The role is as versatile as the ST

[young sonnet]

Then maybe your games just don't have interesting game states? Giving slightly evil because town is trusting an evil player bluffing a strong info roles even though they executed two minions already shouldn't be immediately obvious to even seasoned players
That info is not gonna crack the game open like a dreamer on the wrong script would
It might cause town to start distrusting a different good player or it could even cause town to distrust the general themselves (thinking they're a losing evil player trying to turn town on themselves)

[cursive cobalt]

You misunderstood me

General is meant to be a severely overloaded character

Trying to cram over two dozen given variables into one 5-gauge system is bound to result in some seriously lossy feedback

That's what keeps the role nuanced and balanced

However

Even in that overloaded state

Said information is extremely powerful

Knowing that you, as the good team, are either doing things right or doing things wrong might not directly solve the game

But it provides crutial guidence for what you should do next

The General plays very much as a military general does

[young sonnet]

So then how are you disagreeing with me I'm confused

[cursive cobalt]

I'm not

[young sonnet]

Ohhhhhh my bad

[cursive cobalt]

You're arguing that the General's information is oftentimes too ambiguous to be useful though, right

Are we discussing the same General

[young sonnet]

I be misreading sometimes

Yeah

We are

[cursive cobalt]

I'll be the first to admit I am not a big fan of three star General

[young sonnet]

I'm not either

Hell I be doing like seven star general sometimes

Like I be making faces

"Evil are winning? 🤏"

I'm glad we agree then lol
STs give out bland info and players don't always be thinking outside of the box as a result; they are strong characters that fit into a lot of scripts, but not as many as people may have originally thought

[indigo osprey]

Hp as a sober and healthy checker is fine because it makes hp stronger when bluffed by evil and insane when drunk

Drunk hp has been amazing in my games

[cursive cobalt]

Okay but hear me out

Inverse BH is boring

It’s like

Turning Fisherman into a one-time Savant

Or turning General into a crappy Oracle

Stripping nuance away from guidance roles just makes them sad imo

Even if it is functional

That’s not what they’re meant to do

[sweet birch]

I actually think you could slap a Lunatic on any script and it would at least not be terrible

That being said, most scripts could probably do better than lunatic though

[young sonnet]

I agree with Temporary

[cursive cobalt]

Lunatic is a blank Outsider on most scripts

That's really not saying much

[indigo osprey]

People don’t generally find getting good znd powerful informatio boring nor having to convince people they are actually HP rather than someone bluffing hp

[young sonnet]

I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying with the second half of that sentence

[dense moat]

4/5: With the legendary release of Orthodontist, what’s your favorite role with a mouth on the token?

[foggy grotto]

in general or to go as when playing ortho?

[fresh shard]

Awaiting the how-to-run clarifying whether the Pixie has a mouth stitching or not

[shrewd cloud]

At the top of my head, Goblin. It’s especially a fun dynamic when an Orthodontist gets that ability and now has to convince town they are good and not an evil Goblin

Also just a character I like a lot

[dense moat]

Either/or

[foggy grotto]

pixie was confirmed on stream to be a valid ortho choice

[sharp violet]

The real question is is Golem a valid ortho choice?

[sour harness]

Ortho shabaloth is great, and goblin is funny

[flat lintel]

yeah 100% agree those two are funny

Ortho Ortho is funny

Ortho , , , and sound fun!

[spiral pollen]

I think steward works just about anywhere

Well maybe not with mez

So many things interact badly with vortox

[pseudo fulcrum]

i will not be allowing ortho ortho in my games

a tooth is not a mouth

there is a difference

[flat lintel]

4/6: Do we think Amnesiac needs a buff?

I feel like Amne abilities should be “Rank” and “Why”

I suck at like puzzle solving stuff so Amnesiac is super frustrating to me, especially in Text when I have to play the role for a week

And I just keep getting colds and no guidance

[spiral pollen]

I houserule it to allow guesses even if dead

generally I see STs run amnesiac guessing slightly different all the time

sometimes they give hints

overall I think it comes down to ability design too though

I tend to think ones that require input from the amne to be easier to guess than ones that just get info without engagement

[dense moat]

I like the house rules about guessing while dead and making questions immune to Vortox (not poisoning). I think those help amnesiac function on scripts where the Demon killing you is more of a threat

But otherwise, Im more inclined to believe that Amnesiac requires good ST input. A lot of people, myself included, over complicate things which turns the Amni into an Outsider or even a Minion

I also use 5 star Amni. Wouldn’t mind that, but I think Amni house rules are fine as house rules are good.

[flat lintel]

To what extent, are house rules good? Is it bad that they sorta break the integrity of the game?

The main one I know about is Alejo rules

[dense moat]

I mean, I guess a little bit. But honestly, this is kinda the original purpose of Djinn alongside jinxes. As long as players are aware what they are choosing, its not a bad thing. And house rules are good for if some STs have different taste i rulings (Alejo vs non Alejo). given character limits, I really dont see an issue with letting house rules be house rules

With the possible exception of things like Vortox Poppy telling the wrong team, since that isnt so much flavor as a mechanical bug at times

[flat lintel]

oh yeah vortox and poppy needs to be jinxed

In text, we ran some amnesiac games, and in those games, we got a Rank like the scale, and something that told us what to maybe think about

I found these really helpful and kept me more engaged with the game

Like when you're playing a role like Amnesiac and Huntsman

it's like a minigame in a bigger game

For me, at least, I want to finish the minigame before I play the bigger game so that's why I'm so bummed out when I don't solve Amnesiac

[dense moat]

I haventt played text so idk how good this is or isnt. I've also never heard the hint option, but it sounds interesting. I guess that would be an interesting mechanic. At the very least, I think house rules will always be part of amni, since theres like 4 different things Amni can vary on (guessing while dead, warmness scale, hints, immunity to Vortox question). I wouldnt be horrified if Amni got a solid buff in 1 area. But I think Amni is just a character that benefits a fair degree from ST to ST interpretation

[flat lintel]

True!

[heady cradle]

Yeah. "Cold", "Cool", "Warm", "Hot", and "Bingo" make being an Mandziac so much nicer.

[acoustic chasm]

The game isn't sacred, and is just a bunch of rules we choose to follow. Yes, there is a reason why we follow rules for characters: they have been playtested a lot. But no game is perfect. Experimental characters and characters being placed in weird combinations can lead to rules and iterations more fun than whats origincally envisioned

[young sonnet]

What are alejo rules?

[pseudo fulcrum]

snake charmer goes before minion/demon info on night 1

[young sonnet]

Ah that's good I like that

[sharp violet]

Add in "Very Cold", "Very Hot", and "Lukewarm" and it gets even better

[fast anchor]

As someone who has had an amne solve the game before I think that it’s fine where it is?

I personally don’t like the houserule of guessing while dead because it makes it extremely strong and much more likely to bingo. I’m of the opinion that amnes should get stronger abilities to compensate for the fact they might not bingo instead of houseruling around the guessing limitation

That being said, the Vortox houserule for not affecting guesses is great, and I personally use a bit of a loosey-goosey temperature “scale” that’s a lot more flexible (I’ve said things like “warm but colder than yesterday”, “tepid”, and “scalding”) which I think helps the amne out a bit compared to RAW

[flat lintel]

I thought Amnesiacs should get stronger abilities to compensate for the time it takes them to bingo. Otherwise, doesn't the character become what it's like to be a Huntsman, and we all know what the community sees in Huntsman?

Also, like Yaggababble, should the Storyteller consider what a player might guess as their Amnesiac ability when making it?

Say I often think my abilities hunt after alignment, not Math related info

Should the ST still give me something about how many players woke up misregistered?

[fast anchor]

that’s interesting to think about but probably not? My amne abilities usually have to do with what the grim needs rather than the player who gets it (eg if there’s no Dreamer/UT/Cannibal in the bag I’m probably giving an amne that learns people’s characters somehow, or otherwise learns about characters)

That being said in my IRL group I do tend to change how complex the amne ability is depending on who pulls the token (while keeping the spirit of it the same)

[cursive cobalt]

Allow it to guess while dead and it's in a good spot

[flat lintel]

Even if the Amnesiac is clueless?

[cursive cobalt]

Ok

I'll be honest here

Amne is a heavily luck based character

Early game guesses and early game choices play a massive part in guessing your ability

It's not a Townsfolk I like very much personally for that reason

[sage atlas]

I played as amne in a riot game and the ability I got was not guessable and needed a lot of luck

[minor pier]

Amne does so heavily depend on the ST/ability design that it's very hard to say if it needs a buff or not. Allowing it to guess while dead is probably the most common house rule, and it makes sense, more 'feelsgood', but it also changes the dynamic of the character - without it, Amne becomes a "I need to survive at all costs" character, which is fine if you don't have a dozen of those on script (or run all amne games).

As for the abilities, ideally you want something with either prompted player input (narrowing down guesses), a minimum floor (so that it helps town while alive, even if they fail to guess and/or die early), or visible gamestate effects (otherwise impossible happenings that either prove its existence, or may be attributed to it and thus allow for better guesses, again). If it's not within those bounds, you better have additional things to help them (like setup abilities including "you start knowing you have a setup ability").

Allowing Amne to guess while dead does removes a portion of the hide&seek of a valuable amne ability that may want to stay alive for longer to pinpoint their exact effect - which in turn makes setup/early game abilities more powerful, because then you can die and lose nothing, since you can still work on solving your little minigame within the game. And that's a bit of a shame. And yes, sometimes an each night* amne dies early, and it's a bit of a shame - but that's the same of many continuous info roles, and not knowing whether what exactly your ability contributed to the overall puzzle is also part of why it can get away with powerful abilities overall, as a tradeoff.

So, eh, I'm kinda ambivalent towards the house rule. I prefer to play without it (outside of all amne), and instead design abilities that don't run headfirst into that problem overall.

[young sonnet]

Honestly I think what solves the problem you guys are discussing is stop thinking of the house rule as a blanket fix
Kinda like what Axolator said about adjusting the amne ability to suit the player, I think that's usually a pretty good idea. Obviously you don't want to always softball them, but you want to challenge that player in a way that resonates specifically with them.
So the question of letting players ask after death I think is contingent upon two things: the player with the ability and the strength/type of ability.
So I suggest not simply announcing at the start of games "bootlegger: if you are the amne you may continue guess your ability after death". Instead decide based on the player and specific ability if you will append the ability to guess after death to the amne ability and then privately tell the amne night 1 if they can or can't guess their ability after death. And remind them when they visit you during the day.
Some examples; if it's a strong set up ability, I'd usually say "you can't guess after death". If it's an esoteric information role for an advanced player, I'd probably say "you can guess after death". If it's a weaker each night role and they're a weaker player who doesn't love amne, then I'd most definitely tell them "you can guess after death".

[patent elbow]

All of them

[patent elbow]

Personally no I love it so much

And I understand that players may not be the best at puzzle solving (I’m bad at it to) so I try to keep away from the sole info amne abilities, and I aim for mechanical amne abilities that can be useful before figuring it out but become more powerful when you figure it out

(And I’m just a bit chaotic so there is a bias towards really fun broken mechanical abilities)

But over all no I think the amne doesn’t need a buff but it can range from really bad to really good depending on what the st gives you

[flat lintel]

Like what?

[fast anchor]

The dynamic change of Amnesiac being able to guess while dead is honestly why I dislike the houserule. It goes from being a high-value TF that is incentivized to bluff to stay alive to piece the puzzle together to a townsfolk that doesn't really care if it dies, since even if it can't use its ability it can still figure out what it already has

[young sonnet]

😔 bro didn't read my approach

[flat lintel]

But doesn't that give things away? It's like if a new player drew Mathematician and I was like "Bootlegger: The Math learns how many players are drunk or poisoned." yk?

I feel like you cannot make any game rule contingent on the player who draws the token

[foggy grotto]

4/7 what’s the best and worst character from each base script in your eyes (and why)?

For me it’s

TB
Best: Spy (Very fun to play as yet not impossible to fight against)
Worst: Mayor (Either they get 500 ST confirmations and evil can’t win or they never proc)

BMR
Best: Goon (It’s so fun to change alignment back and forth in BMR)
Worst: Zombuul (Need I explain?)

SnV
Best: Pit Hag (Probably the most entertaining character in the entire game, can do absolutely insane plays and sometimes pull them off)
Worst: Evil Twin (gee i sure do love being a good twin and no one will talk to me the whole game because i might be evil)

[acoustic chasm]

why?

[foggy grotto]

will add

fixed

[flat lintel]

Zombuul is not as bad as people say it is

It's just there's 6-7 hour games of it where the ST hasn't pushed the game fast enough

Otherwise, people wouldn't hate on it that much

[fast anchor]

I love the zombuul I think you do need to explain actually

[foggy grotto]

it makes the game take 10 times longer than it should because it kills slow, makes people crazy paranoid in a not fun way, doing double and triple taps and its often very hard to find

[acoustic chasm]

I have played games where we lost because the town was paranoid of mastermind/zombuul when it really wasn't. zombuul makes lots of BMR games about double tapping as its not really a bad idea

[shrewd cloud]

I had a game where the good team tapped the Assassin three times in a row because they thought he was a Zombuul with Mastermind 😭

That game was an experience since the Demon was actually a Po but the killing pace certainly didn’t feel like it

[acoustic chasm]

I think Zombuul+mastermind in my group really sets in a meta of double and triple tapping everything, and once that becomes an ingrained idea

its very difficult to get rid of

I can see how in other groups, that's not an issue

but asking for double taps does look like a fairly good sided thing to do

[flat lintel]

Is it a problem though? Normally the storyteller should curve days for more and more days. Maybe Day 1 can take 20 minutes, but Day 8 can be 5, just to get the game kicking. Prime tip in BMR: Even if it’s not zombuul, start curving time limits for Day 6+.

Also that’s the whole point, the demon cannot kill that well so you have to double tap and shit.

I personally believe people have a stigma against Zombuul that’s like outdone (dk the word). Like yes, it makes you consider different things, but does Vortox not do the same? Idk, maybe I’m a bit mad, and everyone has a right to their own opinion. I guess, the 7 hour games look bad, but that’s some like ST work.

[dense moat]

Best TB role: Fortune Teller

Simple yet effective Demon Hunter that works with a lot of things

Worst TB role: Butler

It’s not fun to track for ST or players. Also forces evil to lose voting power when they bluff it

Best SNV role: Savant
Difficult to bluff, but arguably enables the most creativity of any base character. Good for teaching STs to build worlds

Worst SNV role: Vigor

If you can’t poison the Townsfolk you need, you’ve just killed your Minion and added Townsfolk. Very janky

Best BMR character: Po

An insane amount of versatility. Limited on what scripts you can use it with, but Po can do nearly anything if you’re wise about when to charge

Worst BMR role: Pukka

Neutralizes on death outsiders, struggle to guide kills, loses killing power when its targets get executed, very traceable, need I say more?

[foggy grotto]

i personally do not find it fun to play in a zombuul game, as my experiences with it have been quite negative

[fierce reef]

does anyone have the link to the very first message in this post

i'm curious

and too lazy to scroll up 4526 messages

[foggy grotto]

@fierce reef

[shrewd cloud]

Oooo I would have had a good one for that question about the TB game

The TB game with 20+ nominations is still one of the most traumatic games of BoTC I have ever had

[fierce reef]

omg thank you!

[digital drum]

Gave +1 Thanks to @foggy grotto (current: #373 - 65)

[signal holly]

Best: , ,
Worst: none, , or
(all of this is within the context of their home script, for custom scripts I could see anything but Professor changing)

[onyx saffron]

Tb
Best:Saint ( I am being biased) But genuinely It's a begginer script where outsider are rather bluffs evil use to get from something. like butler why you don't vote,Recluse why you register as evil,saint why you must not be executed and drunk if your info is wrong.

but butler makes evil lose voting power
People tend to ignore recluse and still execute them
drunk is meh as bluff,and majority of time not used

saint thought...It does what it does.

Worst:Butler

BMR
best: Godfather
bmr would not be the same script without Godfather,It simple yet effective and strong role. Da is second best imo.

Worst: Lunatic. I am not being biased Because I Was tricked into being lunatic. I am being biased bc WheN i was evil and demon had lunatic they found it day 1. When I was lunatic I found out it day 1. It fails to do anything right most of the time.

SnV
Worst & Best : I am not even going to explain. This role traumtised me and also Encouraged me to continue playing botc

[fast anchor]

TB: , (though agree w nother that none of the TB characters are bad per se)

BMR: , (sailor just feels quintessentially BMR to me; it’s iconic and can be very powerful. professor shouldn’t need explaining)

S&V: , (madness is a form of misinformation I love and it’s very fun to play around with an ST who respects the cere’s power. Dreamer feels super swingy and either immensely powerful or it tells you nothing)

[foggy grotto]

oh yeah im changing my TB best to drunk

[onyx saffron]

Regardles i am kind of starting how recluse is often handles by players

[foggy grotto]

im curious why you dont like artist

[onyx saffron]

To the point I like running recluse/gf

[fast anchor]

not nother but Artist is strictly better than seamstress and there’s a bunch of silly stuff you can do with it that is strictly worse than asking the boring grim split (or the trinary grim split)

[signal holly]

yeah Artist is just too powerful

[foggy grotto]

fair nuff

[onyx saffron]

Artist is vortox check or the grim

60% of times

40% or even lesser

Is something unique

[copper quail]

TB:
Best: Empath love the dynamic of having info on the players next to you and trying to figure out if you got a 1 which one is a liar and if 0 or 2 work with/against them

Worst: There's no role I hate in TB? Just hate whenever I roll Undertaker because my games are cursed but it is not related to the role

BMR: //

SNV:
best: my beloved (and ) and worst probably or (I hate the 50/50 in final 3 because of a potential barber swap but the role in itself is not bad)

Oh and if travelers are characters you can add for worst in BMR 🙈

[foggy grotto]

WHAT

[signal holly]

oh yeah easy picks of and for worst if we count travelers

[foggy grotto]

apprentice over bishop???

[signal holly]

bishop is honestly my favorite BMR traveler

though it helps that its competition is pretty terrible

[fast anchor]

Apprentice is just not healthy for the game imo

Bishop is very fun

[signal holly]

apprentice is awful because it's just not a traveler (and also interacts super poorly with a lot of the abilities it could gain)
voudon is just not very balanced, it's pretty good-sided even with an evil voudon
judge just does not belong on a mastermind script
matron is matron

[fast anchor]

that’s fair, judge tends to use it the day they travel in or get exiled for me

[signal holly]

i would be very okay with judge on any script where evil judge can't immediately end the game

[onyx saffron]

a good judge is exiled judge

[fast anchor]

bishop I like in BMR because it’s mechanical info but on customs it can get funky esp with things like golem and TC

[onyx saffron]

Jokes aside

[signal holly]

unfortunately evil judge can immediately end the game on most scripts

[onyx saffron]

Good judge is useless

they are doing the same thing town are doing

by votes

Unless voudon in game

[signal holly]

like even just in the base 3, Saint/Mastermind/Evil Twin are all hard vetoes for Judge

and then on customs you get things like Goblin or Boomdandy

[fast anchor]

i think the almanac even calls out saint/judge as a bad interaction when saying to use caution re: offscript travelers

[copper quail]

I found Judge not fun at all in BMR but even more in custom script even if there are no saint/goblin/evil twin/MM or things like that just because in a game where you have for 12p more or less 5 exes having one decided by only one player feels very wrong to me

[fast anchor]

but mm/judge is… yeah it’s something

[copper quail]

I don't think having a good judge helps a lot the good team (it can but in very very specific case) whereas an evil judge is just op

[shrewd cloud]

Travellers are definitely my second least favorite part of BMR (behind resurrection being underbaked)

[cursive cobalt]

Best/worst a conceptual level, practical level, or fun level?

Also people should talk to ETs
Most groups I find do

[cursive cobalt]

My criteria for rating roles varies depending on what im examining

For example

I like playing as the Spy

Favorite role on TB in that regard

But I wouldn't say the Spy is the best role conceptually or practically in TB

There are way better roles than it there

Conceptually speaking, the Drunk on TB is unrivaled

Practically speaking, Imp is the best

[foggy grotto]

fun level mostly

[flat lintel]

Yeah Professor being at worst makes sende

Sense*

We need more Resurrection abilities

[onyx saffron]

How in the world do I keep finding you

lol

[flat lintel]

Wait why? It’s just an extra traveler

[flat lintel]

Huh?

[onyx saffron]

Aoprentice sucks ngl

Apprentice

Best bmr Traveller Is bishop

[flat lintel]

how…

[onyx saffron]

Okay Tell me it's competition

[flat lintel]

I get nother’s reasoning ig

Bishop?

[onyx saffron]

A Role that helps good more than evils even if evil

(voudon)

[flat lintel]

Voudon and Apprentice are great

Judge is mid

[onyx saffron]

I literelly saw a game Where evil voudon traveled out to help evil team win

On last day

Speaks a lot how this characters helps good more ngl

[flat lintel]

And I storytold a game where an Evil Voudon gave their team the win with their ability lol

[onyx saffron]

I mean

If majority dead people agree someone is evil

I heavily doubted it's because they are undead majority

I like voudon

But it's far good sided and usually hurms it's own team

From what I saw at least

[signal holly]

apprentice just isn't a traveler

[flat lintel]

fair

[onyx saffron]

Apprentice is

[flat lintel]

but i like it bc of that

what are all 5 bmr travelers

[signal holly]

judge apprentice voudon bishop matron

[onyx saffron]

matron,bishop,voudon,Apprentice,judge

matron is third

Imo

[signal holly]

imo matron apprentice judge are uncontroversially bad

i recognize that i am both low on voudon and high on bishop relative to most of the community though

[onyx saffron]

Aporentice is not even an traveller so fifth place
Good judge is Useless while evil one is op. best strat is to get them exiled day 1.fourth place
Matron-Just Lame And people don't like but at least playable
Second-Voudon Not the most balanced but far better than rest
Bishop-somehow good traveller

In conclusion

Bmr has worst set of travellers

[signal holly]

yeah despite being my favorite of the BMR suite bishop is still easily worse than like half the S&V travelers

[cursive cobalt]

Bishop is great

(If your ST knows what they're doing)

Allowing players (especially the Bishop themselves) to still influence who gets nominated is the key

Because otherwise Bishop just becomes "ST controls the entire day phase", and thats not fun

[flat lintel]

Okay I confess the BMR travelers are a bit questionabke

[signal holly]

eh... yes and no
the point of bishop is that not having control over nominations is a cost

[flat lintel]

yeah, but still like appr and voudon

[cursive cobalt]

I allow the Bishop themselves to control 1 nom

[flat lintel]

They just need a tiny patch imo

[cursive cobalt]

The rest are ST-controlled, but will be warped around who town would find fun

[flat lintel]

Like Bishop is okay, it’s fine

[signal holly]

i mean the other issue is that BMR as a script does not play nicely with travelers period

[flat lintel]

Matron needs to change the whisper mechanic and stuff

Apprentice needs a mutation condition

[cursive cobalt]

Apprentice (Townsfolk)
"You start knowing a Townsfolk (if good) or a Minion (if evil). Once per game, at night, choose to gain their ability until dusk."

[flat lintel]

Still doesn’t resolve the mechanical conflicts with certain characters

[cursive cobalt]

True

[signal holly]

like, leave aside the fact that Apprentice and Judge have bad interactions with a bunch of BMR characters

a bunch of BMR characters also just have awful Traveler interactions (Tea Lady, Innkeeper in 2+ traveler games, Moonchild, Zombuul, etc)

[flat lintel]

Imagine Apprentice getting like the Mastermind ability

Yk?

Apprentice (Traveler)
"You start knowing a Townsfolk (if good) or a Minion (if evil). Once per game, at night*, choose to gain a mutated version of their ability until dusk.”

Do you think this works?

[signal holly]

i mean i'm going to hate most versions of apprentice because imo the whole point of travelers is that everyone knows what they do and it's the same thing regardless of their alignment

and there isn't a way to make an apprentice that follows that

[flat lintel]

Say the Apprenatice gains the Mastermind ability:

“If the Demon is executed today, you keep your ability tomorrow & choose an evil player: they gain the Mastermind ability. You can’t be exiled.”

[flat lintel]

Or just have an ability list

[signal holly]

no i mean i hate the idea of evil apprentice bluffing a townsfolk ability while having a minion ability

period

which is the whole point of apprentice, i can't think of a possible rework that fixes that and is still recognizably the same character

it just makes them a regular player with a slightly weird ability as opposed to a Harlot or Bone Collector who does The Thing that everyone knows they're doing and has to figure out how to use it to help their team

[flat lintel]

Oh apprentice spy is so cursed (from experience). Just insta disables the virgin, learns everything and bluffs well 😭

[flat lintel]

not a big fan of Harlot personally, just not in line with my playstyle, but I see your point

[cursive cobalt]

Too weird

Basically turns it into an Amne

Since "mutated" could mean anything really

[cursive cobalt]

this also wouldnt need to be at night*

just once per game at night works

[flat lintel]

Would a list of abilities work?

[flat lintel]

Also this isn’t something to shy away from

[cursive cobalt]

How would you implement that

[cursive cobalt]

Seeing that the Apprentice is on an intermediate script, it kind of is

[flat lintel]

Jinxes!

[sour harness]

Or you can just say that the amne ability includes that

Also you can give it a mayor bounce

[cursive cobalt]

Why is that?

The idea of the Apprentice is that they’re essentially a player who’s not a player

They have an ability just as every other player does

But they’re a traveler

[signal holly]

right
they are a traveler who acts like a regular player rather than a traveler

i don't like that as traveler design space

[cursive cobalt]

That’s fair

[signal holly]

the whole point of travelers is that they're splashy characters who don't stick around long, so people know what they're capable of and can plan around it

the game is not designed for the DA or the Innkeeper to just get up and leave on day four (or for that matter for an extra one to appear on day three), and I don't particularly like what that being possible does to games

[cursive cobalt]

Very fair assessment

I also don’t like Apprentice that much

However, I’m not one to completely overhaul characters that often

If a character has an intended niche, most of my reworks will center around retaining that niche (even if I personally don’t like it)

And simply changing its execution

(Unless the concept is unsalvageable, which I don’t actually think the Apprentice, but some might and that’s fair)

[signal holly]

imo Apprentice is unsalvageable in the same way that, say, Heretic is unsalvageable

I fundamentally dislike the core design idea, but that doesn't and shouldn't stop other people from playing with it as long as I can reasonably avoid it myself

[cursive cobalt]

Honestly, I feel the exact same way on the Heretic front

Good character, just not for me… like, ever

[heady cradle]

They're really hard to implement

[shrewd cloud]

Honestly yeah I don’t exactly disagree since the sheer publicity of it kind of limits the design space

That being said I still agree with Nexus, but even if we do get more resurrection characters BMR is stuck with its super undercooked resurrection which is sad

[fresh shard]

Apprentice feels especially rough on BMR to be because its minions are so strong

Except maybe for Mastermind but the Apprentice is definitely getting exiled on a known Mastermind day

[flat lintel]

Still, though 😭

[flat lintel]

I don’t know if I’d agree with this

Doesn’t really accomplish much for the Amnesiac

[cursive cobalt]

Mayor bounce seems like a very artificial solution

[sour harness]

it's situational and if it doesnt come up just dont include it

i guess thats a violation of token integrity technically?

but eh

[cursive cobalt]

4/8: What’s your most heated storytelling/scriptbuilding hot take?

[young sonnet]

I don't really have one cause I haven't been playing long enough to have a specific one that I'm really passionate about like you have with pacifist. I'm still learning and evolving my opinions on the game, but I think I'm gonna go with the amnesiac take I had on here just two days ago. I've played with amne a decent amount and I started out by just blanket houseruling "you can guess after death" but that hampers amne ability design space and play styles. I started moving away from that and experimenting with the idea I more fully fleshed out here a bit ago and after reading everyone's discussion and complaints about amne as well as seeing a bunch of YouTube videos with amne, I genuinely think I have a really good idea there

[flat lintel]

Bring out the flowchart, we know it!

[sour harness]

Vigormortis and evil twin work extremely well together

[fast anchor]

poisoner ain't shit

most scripts work better with a different, less swingy minion

[sage atlas]

Golem is overused

[spiral pollen]

idk how controversial this is but grandmother without any other sources of multiple deaths is fine

[shrewd cloud]

Honestly I don’t disagree. At least I think it’s better to have Grandmother with no extra deaths than just Grandmother and something like a Godfather

[spiral pollen]

two hard confirmed dead players is whatever

And it's not as if evil gets help bluffing grandmother from roles that cause deaths

[foggy grotto]

asking people for their last words is more fun then how they would like to die.

[cursive cobalt]

Imma start trying that

[spiral pollen]

ooh that's a fun one

[heady cradle]

4/9: What BotC characters would you like to see in other media? What genre would that media be?

I'd personally like to see a murder-mystery rom com with the and , for example, or a campy espionage flick with the and the .

[sharp violet]

An comical action film with a team of townsfolk vs.

[fast anchor]

How about a murder mystery with the , the , the , the , the …

More seriously, a coming-of-age story where the realizes they’re not perfect and that’s okay

[sweet birch]

Shonen anime featuring the Lycanthrope

[sour harness]

all having a fancy dinner party

[heady cradle]

Hosted by the , ideally

[sour harness]

Good call

[foggy grotto]

an anti-demon government PSA with the , and where the is actively giving bad information and advice

[cloud plover]

General: Sound strategic advice, outlines demonic goals and targets, provides clear updates on current status of the conflict and our current operational objectives
Mayor: Stalwart in times of crisis, reassures the population that everything is under control, aware that paranoia and hysteria only feed into the Demonic outbreak
Politician: "That's right, the demons are in your home, and it's probably your children. Kill them immediately! In the meantime, if you want to survive the coming rapture, Poli (tm) brand Energy Enhancers are the ONLY dihydrogen-monoxide soluble immune support protein supplements on the market that..."

[heady cradle]

I'd like to see the as a complicated country lawyer in a legal drama where they defend their very clearly guilty demon at F3. Maybe town had their demon pinned at F5, they defend them, and a jump causes the Demon to definitively jump to an Outsider at F3.

[fast anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/saul-goodman-better-call-saul-saul-goodman3d-meme-breaking-bad-gif-24027228

good news, there is a show like that

[dense moat]

and living as a family. Definitely not a reference to any particular anime : )

[dense moat]

More seriously, I’d love to see a spoof on campaign ads by the Politican making obviously bad advice trying to appeal to the evil team.

Or the Magician infiltrating the evil team and undermining them from within. While also dealing the Lunatic who sees them and trued to recruit them (or maybe also a Poli)

Oh and let’s not forget the lesbian romance arc between Pixie and High Priestess. I need that show too

[hot orchid]

The opposite of this: I want a comical action film centred around various minions who lost their demons in previous towns and have found LM and are trying again

My ideal cast would be and possibly

[fast anchor]

Gonna tell my kids these were the Avengers

in an action context might fit better than cere

God damn it I want this superhero movie now

[warped fog]

the minions adopt the LM and it's all cute until you remember these are supposed to be villains terrorising towns

[cloud plover]

Oh my god is this found family

It's beautiful

[hot orchid]

I feel like it toes the line between being a found family/rom com story and then you have a scene that reminds you that this is a family involving an axe murderer and a terrorist

[heady cradle]

Hear me out — the and the are an actual couple and take the other minions into their giant mansion

And feels useless until the end where they make a risky gambit that leads to them getting executed and triggering the bomb.

[tall raft]

I feel like this could be a feel good story of resilience and fulfillment
As long as you ignore the child based murders

[dense moat]

4/10: Kiss Marry Kill for and Explain

[heady cradle]

Kiss the . I imagine she's good at it, but I don't know whether she really would want to pursue a marriage.
Marry the . Absolutely! I'd do this IRL; witches tend to be great beans, and this witch only punishes those who try to get others killed. Seems fine in my book (in any situation except BotC).
Kill the . I feel like she's rather more manipulative and conniving; I can't imagine her just looking right through me would make for a very healthy relationship, and the seems less likely to kill me after a kiss.

[sweet birch]

Kill the widow but instead of the reasons you mentioned I just want to save the arachnophobes out there

[fast anchor]

I’m not trying to be a homewrecker with whatever the SW has going on with the Demon

[heady cradle]

I imagine she could call it business.

[dense moat]

I feel like this is the most unanimous opinion one of these I’ve ever seen. Which is funny because I was trying to go for the most eligible female Minions.

But it certainly works. I can’t lie. And the witch logic is brilliant

[pseudo fulcrum]

Yeah I read it and thought "It's crazy how much I agree with this"

[dusky minnow]

4/11: You're in class and are told your usual teacher, the storyteller, is on sick leave. Which character are you looking forward or dreading to get as a substitute teacher?

[fierce reef]

looking forward to bc cookies, scared of maybe? because if they call on you to answer a question, you’ll drop dead

[dense moat]

hands down for bad. We’ll have to keep sacrificing classmates to the teacher or everyone dies. And they won’t even teach us true things either!

Also, don’t want for hygiene reasons or to keep church and state divided

The teacher Id want would be . Tough but fair to the students and always knowing what to do. could also be cool

[dusky minnow]

Feel like they'd be a starting teacher that usually just helps the current teacher, but since they are sick they can get to teach the class all on their own finally!

They'd get you in trouble for super minor things and then also do it themselves but worse.

Also would be great because they'd teach us how to summon demons and other occult stuff. Neat!

[foggy grotto]

[flat lintel]

4/11 (2.0) - [im waging this as a super random irrelevant question that's not worth another day] Summoner in BMR?

[heady cradle]

would just be the librarian coming into sub. I'd like to see , though — that seems a thing worth learning.

[flat lintel]

yes, ik about courtier, and im fine with it

[peak adder]

replace courtier with summoner so that it’s still 25 characters maybe?

[flat lintel]

seem like a learning class

[cloud plover]

Looking forward:

• food
• interesting
• would probably talk too much and forget homework

Dreading:

• thinks they're somebody else, for some reason? Would be weird to deal with
• would probably spread private issues all over the school
• pits students against each other in a twisted attempt to promote competition and achievement. Might work sometimes, but generally awful to experience

[sour harness]

It's either gonna be real great or absolutely terrible

[young sonnet]

Lmao, I've had them as a teacher before

Funnily enough, they taught health in high school

[pseudo fulcrum]

would be hilarious and always forget stuff like homework

would be really weird you'd just have like seven teachers or something all teaching the same class

[young sonnet]

The students would be teaching the teacher

[fresh shard]

Boomdandy would have to be the absolute worst

[young sonnet]

I'd say shabaloth or no dashii is probably worse. Some Lovecraftian nightmare beyond your comprehension sitting at the front of the room? It would drive students mad

[pseudo fulcrum]

I think psychologically politician could be worse

I feel like I don't have to explain

[sour harness]

No you're thinking of

[pseudo fulcrum]

Imagine every time you ask them a question they just avoid it lmao

[sour harness]

THEY would drive the students mad

[cloud plover]

Oh god it’s socratic circles XD

Everyone says they know what’s up and only three people have done the reading

[foggy grotto]

wait yeah why doesn’t the lovecraftian themed demon have madness effects

wait how viable would a demon that madness locks their neighbors be

but like breaking madness ends the game

[sage atlas]

||Tipi Tipi||

It would be pretty strong in comparison to other things

[spiral pollen]

keeping that up for the whole game would be a drag

[young sonnet]

lol

[cursive cobalt]

No Dashii can be interpreted as warping the psychological states of those near them

Leviathan is lazy

[cursive cobalt]

Seems like antifun design tbh

[spiral pollen]

if you're under that madness you wouldn't really be a player any more, just a pawn for spreading evil misinfo

[cursive cobalt]

That’s the inherent issue with “be mad or you lose” mechanics

Instead of tracking on a consequence to acting a certain way

They completely disable that option

||Tipi Tipi||, as well as final day Cere/Harpy madness, is likely the closest one should ever stray to that design philosophy

Since its final day

So that player has the minimal amount of agency taken away from them

[fast anchor]

would probably be a decent teacher, maybe too

I don't want teaching a class. Maybe might have stuff to say about how the government works, but with I'm just getting campaigned to and nothing else!

[heady cradle]

What is ||Tipi Tipi||?

[young sonnet]

Old leaked demon

[onyx saffron]

||"Each night*,A player dies On the final night, choose a player. They are "mad" That you are not the demon or their team loses"||

||@heady cradle ||

[patent elbow]

Ok so looking forward to they’re always a riot to have as a sub. And I would dread the they are just so preachy it. Can get kinda annoying

[sweet birch]

||Tbh sounds pretty lame. Either the madness will convince everyone you're just the demon or it's going to someone who never thought you were the demon anyway||

[flat lintel]

depends on the script

[young sonnet]

Yeah I also think it's lame

||basically a vanilla demon until final 3 and the reward isn't even that big||

[sage atlas]

||it doesn't even choose its kills||

[foggy grotto]

4/12 what is your most anticipated character release? (wrong answers only)

[sage atlas]

||Skinculus fans rise up||

This channel will have a lot of spoilers today

[cloud plover]

Scarlet Man

Just a guy covered in red paint. No ability, character type, or alignment

[indigo osprey]

Spy seems overpowered: being able to look in the grim is insane. You can just see who the damsel or the magician is/are!

[fast anchor]

probably the Rip from Trouble Bewing

[dusky minnow]

Mario

[dense moat]

This one

[spiral pollen]

shoe eater

[dense moat]

The natural counter to the Athiest : )

[spiral pollen]

I should spoiler this

sorry guys

[pliant grail]

Anesthesiologist
(Minion: every night, choose a player. That player goes to sleep tomorrow at dusk)

[warped fog]

i love the translated almanacs

[dense moat]

Yeah, they’re great!

Maybe next April Fool’s day, I’ll repost them under a better name

[pseudo fulcrum]

I didn't know Joe Biden did the quote for God

[sour harness]

All of SMR

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1063720967181963304/1185385098762260520/9amqq9z047db1.png?ex=662312e6&is=66109de6&hm=2f90e98b58d8b89473f8b6d841b246c942dcd0b487f07383080579b5c927c3e0&

[flat lintel]

FANATIC LOL

[onyx saffron]

|| I am pretty sure the madness is run very strictly,like one wrong comment Good loses,Didn't managed to convice at least 1 person? good loses. Made it obvious you are mad? good loses. You need make a good argument Based why tipi tipi is not the demon,Spamming this person is not demon? good loses. so yeah...||

[onyx saffron]

|| if the madness convices everyone that you are demon,Good loses so yeah...||

|| since chosen player failed at job||

|| Well based on what I know...||

|| due these reasons it was considered almost impossible to win against tip tipi in final 3||

|| I personally don't agree with "if people suspect you are mad,it counts as breaking"||

|| but tipi tipi is supposed to run On most strict based madness due obvious reasons||

|| It is a demon ability,you literelly can't choose your own kills, and have nothing before final and the ability reveals who is demon & The demon type. The chosen person must actively spread missinformation while making all sense,failing to do so will result in good losing||

|| also It's will not might Even st can't decide if that would make lose,st must follow the rules||

|| do I like tipi tipi? not really ngl||

[onyx saffron]

Old orthodontist "if you smile,your team loses. You can't die"

The best role

Like look at it

Imagine not agreeing with this

[warped fog]

madness is making an attempt to convince

not actually convincing

[heady cradle]

4/13: You're putting together a team, and you're planning to pull the biggest score Ravenswood Bluff has ever seen (which can't be that big, considering there are 10 people in town at any given time, but forget that).
Who's putting the team together? Who else is on it, and what are their roles? From whom does the inevitable betrayal come from?

While the feels like a really obvious answer to the first question, I'm curious to see whether people have any other thoughts. and come to mind as alternatives; perhaps even for a little bit of a little bit of mad genius, or for a divinely inspired person putting the team together.

[foggy grotto]

obviously
As the cocky one
As the nerdy one who can do all the computer stuff
As their guy on the outside who can launder the money through one of his many shell companies and provide funding
As the comic relief who somehow saves the heist on multiple occasions
As the ex-cop who's on the other side now and wants in
As the one who does all the stunts and physical stuff
As their guy on the inside who will sabotage stuff and help them
As hired muscle

[heady cradle]

So the 's the one that betrays them, I guess.

Though the implies that one of them has been made evil, and while everyone's suspicious of the ex-cop the entire time, it turns out he manages to root out the mole... who was either the , , or (or himself, ig).

[foggy grotto]

oh thats fun

well if evil = betraying the team then MM and Baron are probably just playing them to get the money and then dupe them

which is a fun idea

and they hire the goon to help

[heady cradle]

The evil team's bigger than the good team, here.

, , , , /// ?

The only certified good guy is the

[foggy grotto]

ultimate betrayal

[dense moat]

The leader of the team. Can see the path forward with clairvoyance The face of the team, knows how to create a cover story Can recruit any common enemies to their side The quiet one who has all the solutions, also the unexpected betrayer The muscle. Wolfs out if someone sets up the alarm The tech one. Breaks the security and solves mechanical problems The getaway vehicle

And the Mastermind has quite naturally hired the team for their own plots. Because why shoud a genius get their hands dirty?

[heady cradle]

would also be a good team leader.

[dense moat]

Sorta. But Fortune Teller acts esoterically and has many ways to be wrong

Like, I appreciate Ojo as a team leader because they can see EVERYTHING. I was almost considering Kazali for choosing the team, but Ojo's clairvoyance is a unique angle and I wanted to use magic as an advantage in this question

[heady cradle]

I mean, on that note

Either or would also work for that reason

[indigo osprey]

Ojo is a liability, if they are wrong, they can hurt their own team or cause collatoral damage, same with pit hag

[fast anchor]

14/4: You’re playing (base 3) Fishbucket and pull the Philosopher token. What are you doing with your ability, and when?

[spiral pollen]

professor or minstrel immediately if I'm being boring

with philo minstrel it's basically like having two minstrels if there's one in play

although if you actually had two minstrels they would cancel out come to think of it

[flat lintel]

A tactical one would be - esp. if you know a Mayor is in play

[young sonnet]

Snake charmer for shits and giggles

[cursive cobalt]

Going Pacifist, because not only are the odds of a DA being in the minion roster extremely low, but it’s also a powerful global ability that won’t sabotage any other player and allows for an alternative aggro playstyle

Would not be my choice for B4 fishbucket though

[sharp violet]

Virgin n2 if I don't hear of any other potential Virgin, so that I can confirm myself

[cursive cobalt]

Minstrel would be my first choice if it wasn’t for its horrendous interactions with a lot of Townsfolk outside of BMR

[signal holly]

professor is the boring but obvious choice - if i felt like playing with fire i'd wait until a night after i'd expect an og Prof to have woken to choose

[cursive cobalt]

Professor is OP but boring

[signal holly]

otherwise... mayor is also an interesting option, since it kind of doesn't sabotage an original mayor?

pacifist/tea lady are decent choices, grandmother/clockmaker are decent choices, butler is the ultimate meme

[cursive cobalt]

Most BMR roles are decent choices I find

Since outside of their home script they often become a lot more powerful

[dense moat]

Minstrel or Tea Lady. Both nice powerful roles and others here have described why Philo Minstrel works

[sour harness]

Empath op

The chances of recluse/spy/poisoner are much lower

Alternatively, sage or RK

Sage is risky if there's an assassin or godfather but honestly that's still valuable information

[heady cradle]

The chance I go Sage or RK is inversely proportionate to the group's overall experience.

[sour harness]

Honestly I think I'd flip a coin between empath and sage and tell people I'm doing so but not what the result was

Maybe I'd tell half of the people I talk to sage and the other half empath

Or I'd just give both idk

(meanwhile I might actually pick the dreamer or smth lol)

[hot orchid]

Depends how new I am to the group-- if it's my regulars I snap pick Goon or Snarmer, if it's a group I know less I pick Sage immediately and then ask people for advice as to what I should pick, claiming that I haven't chosen yet

[young sonnet]

Lmao that's good

[sweet birch]

If I'm smart I'm going grandma on N2. I, however, am not smart, and would much rather instantly take savant

[fast anchor]

personally in order from most to least silly (and thus, least to most useful)

philo lunatic n1
philo gambler n2
philo grandma/inv n2
philo prof n2

minstrel/tl is a good idea that i didn't think about, actually

[granite oxide]

Philo amni for an impromptu role from the storyteller 🔥

[fast anchor]

Amnesiac isn't a base 3 role :P

[foggy grotto]

amne ability is you become added to B3

[sour harness]

Would philo atheist do anything (ik it's not B3 but now I'm curious)

Does it just unlock the win where you execute the storyteller and let them break the rules except there's still an evil team?

[fresh shard]

Yep, that's a thing that can happen, though the ST can always intervene to e.g. say "I'm breaking the rules to make you choose something else"

[mild notch]

The ST is free to just drunk the Philosopher Atheist and return things to normal. They're also free to just change all the evil players good. They're also free to do anything else

[sour harness]

So basically a terrible decision

But a very funny one

[hot orchid]

If nobody in your group has ever done that play before I highly recommend you give them the ok, then get in a call with the evil team and say "I'm on your team now, what's the plan"

If town has decided they want to play against both you and a real team that's their move

[cursive cobalt]

TL is a fine pick, but imo worse than most other BMR roles

It’s only strong if allowed to double tap

In any other case, there are better alternatives

One even being on the same script

[copper quail]

For my own fun I would take Mathematician or Savant but I think Clockmaker/Investigator and Prof can be strong choices in Fishbucket

[cloud plover]

Oh wow, it's been a while with no questions here

smh, y'all dropped the ball

[young sonnet]

I guess I'll make an attempt to throw my hat in the ring
April 17th:
If you made a YouTube channel or social media account dedicated to just Blood on the Clocktower content, what would you call it?

For reference, I think "The Grimoire" was a really good one, nice job on those guys snatching it up

[severe raven]

Sober & Healthy

[fierce reef]

Blocktower

(that's what my family calls this game since they aren't native speakers, it's a bit long for them)

[sharp violet]

Top 4 Gaming

[sharp violet]

||Alternative channel name: SAO Fan (the SAO definitely stands for Standard Amy Order and not Sword Art Online, trust me guys)|| /s

[hot orchid]

true...

[sage atlas]

EgaClocktower

[fast anchor]

booo, get better material

[cursive cobalt]

4/18: If you could change one character’s icon, what would it be?

[spiral pollen]

hatter

more hats

[cloud plover]

Steward. The thin blue outline is very out of place compared to the other icons, which rely on larger filled spaces, and it feels weird.

See how thin it feels? I would change it to something more filled

[cursive cobalt]

Tbf those are unofficial icons

[cloud plover]

These are the only ones I have access to 😔

[cursive cobalt]

You can view the official ones on the wiki

As well as on TPI YT videos and streams

[cloud plover]

Cool, but I don't play clocktower on the wiki

[cursive cobalt]

Fair

[foggy grotto]

summoner, it’s kinda boring rn and the speculated art on the unreleased list was way cooler

[cursive cobalt]

It was the pentagram right

[foggy grotto]

no that’s wizard

it was an ouroboros

[cursive cobalt]

The current icon can be interpreted as an oversimplified ouroboros

I suppose

But that’s a stretch

[foggy grotto]

rn i think of it as like the magical residue of someone doing a circular summoning motion

like they’re opening some sort of portal

[cursive cobalt]

It appears to be textured that way

[dense moat]

It’d be pretty cool if alchemist was a Philosopher’s Stone. Like a cracked rock with crystals or something

[warped fog]

fair, the official icon looks fine imo but the unofficial one looks very meh

[young sonnet]

Hard agree
Jörmungandr/Ouroboros is much cooler

[young sonnet]

I wish Duchess was the full ball gown rather than just the bottom part, it looks really goofy ahh without the full gown

[sour harness]

OH BOY I think I'm just gonna... list all the ones I would change because this is an aspect of my big pet peeve w clocktower

(referring to the official icons)

If I could also change the names of the characters there would be a LOT more, the affordances in this game make no sense

("affordances" for those unfamiliar are connections between game mechanics and real world things to help explain the mechanic. Spikes hurt in real life, so in a platformer they put spikes to tell you you shouldn't go there. That kind of thing applies here too, and most of the botc ones SUCK)

[cloud plover]

I am very intrigued by this tangent. Wanna unload every single example of this you've noticed in clocktower and how it might be improved?

[sour harness]

Gimme a bit lemme find the tier list

ok so this was made kinda hastily so there are prob some things id move but not a ton
(not ordered within each tier)

still referring to the official icons btw

there's some roles like boomdandy: it's a bomb, and if you trigger it it "explodes" and a lot of people die. it's chaotic, which feels very fitting for a bomb icon and anything with "boom" in the name

thats a good example of what it SHOULD be like

on the opposite end we have pixie, which at least to me feels like it has something to do with fairies. except the icon is a teddy bear???? and even worse, the actual mechanic of the role is a doppelganger character, which fits neither of those

so basically the top 2 tiers are fine and everything below that is probably something id change

[warped fog]

Pixies, in folklore, replace people iirc

[sour harness]

do they??

[warped fog]

i think

[sour harness]

still doesnt explain the teddy bear

[warped fog]

the teddy bear in the icon is being replaced by the pixie, hence the weird eye

[sour harness]

but also i think doppelganger is simpler lol

[sour harness]

well then

am i like the only one who didnt know that

i havent heard of that but if its common knowledge then yeah sure leave it in

[young sonnet]

Yeah I also hate pixie icon, it's so disappointing

[warped fog]

it is

but some people do use "doppelganger" as an alternate name for Evil Twin so idk

[young sonnet]

What's wrong with harpy, DA, and Chef? I like those icons and love DA and Chef
I do agree professor is cringe, but I don't have better ideas
Po and leviathan are sad/disappointing too

[warped fog]

it's how they fit their abilities iirc

[sour harness]

what on earth does a chef have to do with pairs of evil players

yeah

[young sonnet]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh

[sour harness]

"chef" and the icon are great together

[young sonnet]

I thought we were just talking name to icon matches

[warped fog]

the flavour quote explains some of these

[young sonnet]

^^^

Like librarian

[sour harness]

1 thats a stretch 2 if i'm a new player who's never played this before and i see the TB script, this means nothing to me

people rarely read the flavor text before they actually understand the game to an extent

[warped fog]

1. i agree it's a bit of a stretch but it is a flavour justification
2. fair

[sour harness]

like, i know what all the roles do, the affordances aren't really useful OR hurtful to me anymore, but this is about new players

[sour harness]

yeah i mean if they had already settled on chef it makes sense to patch it up a bit with the flavor text

i just dont think its enough personally

[warped fog]

iirc Steven had some meaning with every role name except Flowergirl

for Flowergirl he just wanted to use that name for something

[sour harness]

i mean it's a nice name but like

[warped fog]

(and some Demons which were just meant to sound like demons)

they did a clocktower tidbit saying "Fang Gu doesn't mean anything at all"

[sour harness]

yeah the demons i kinda get

it's rare that youll find an affordance for that

occasionally they do, lleech comes to mind and that works great

zombuul, a clear reference to zombie, involves living after you die, that makes a lot of sense

and then yeah fang gu lol