secret thing

[severe raven]

Pacifist is a Townsfolk, Golem is an Outsider, and Butler is interesting to play.

Ummm... also, I largely prefer quality over quantity when it comes to making scripts. I've made two so far, and both are based on very specific ideas that permeate at least the entire Townsfolk list, if not the whole game.

[night ingot]

My hot take is that pacifist is extremely useful in bmr and that people just play it wrong

Good should bluff pacifist more and hide tea ladies for instance

Good should also be drinking with devils advocates a lot more

As courtier

[spiral pollen]

ojo and spy/widow is not a good interaction

big BMR sounds good on paper but suffers from zombuul games being awful

zombuul really shines in one minion

I would say about 70% of my games have been one minion games tbqh

[sharp violet]

STs make Travelers evil a bit too often, it should be 1/3 evil when I feel like its closer to 2/5

[spiral pollen]

I can't lie I make outsiders good way way more than evil

don't tell anyone

[signal holly]

pacifist is a townsfolk, cult leader is an outsider

[flat lintel]

9 players is great most of the time

[sweet birch]

Recently formed opinion, poisoner sucks and it's why TB is bad

It makes worldbuilding into a clown fiesta of "well what if this person was poisonlocked"

At least the drunk stays in one place, poisoner is just untraceable until it's too late

Also poisoner/balloonist 🤮

[shadow smelt]

Alchemist is one of maybe two officially released badly-designed characters. There are very few minion abilities it works well with

(the other one is cult leader)

[spice solstice]

Based and valid take pilled

Unironically I like widow more than any other poisoning character.

[copper quail]

Biased opinion but is not a fun role
Most of the convertion are frustating to see and most of the time it relies on bonds you have with each player which depends on things that happened before the game ie "I will turn evil because I enjoy to play with that player"

I understand that policy and there's nothing wrong with it but there's almost no cost for the good player saying the word here. Whereas for Politician abilities like you need to be the most responsible so it's always a bit riskier

[shadow smelt]

The cost of the mez word to the evil team is that the mez has no other abilities, and most townsfolk effectively won't from now on either

[indigo osprey]

I absolutely loathe the 'people looking for a mez-word' meta.

[severe raven]

Yes. I desire to incubate a paranoid Mezepheles meta, wherein players erratically impeach others on charges of uttering plausible secret words. Mezepheleses then must covertly inculcate someone with expectation of betrayal, at nontrivial risk to their fidelity.

[fast anchor]

In live games, 3f3s are absolutely useless to the good team and do nothing but help evil find out people’s real claims if you put a bluff in your 3

[lunar kraken]

lukewarm take at best

[sweet birch]

I'd argue the same is true in text

[spiral pollen]

tepid take for sure

[fast anchor]

“tepid take” literally everyone still does them

Clearly this is somewhat controversial

[past kayak]

I think people should be more willing to say “I’m not willing to role claim right now” instead of giving a vague 3f3 (or even lying in a 3f3)

[shadow smelt]

Over time my group has shifted towards direct claims or indirect clues instead of 3 for 3s

[dense moat]

Tbf, I think Ojo Widow is more justifiable than Ojo spy thanks to widows call and adding poison to find. But after thinking about it in past scripts, I do agree Ojo Spy is basically unsolvable and redundant with other Demons, especially more subtle ones like Imp

[digital drum]

Gave +1 Thanks to @spiral pollen

[dense moat]

Psychopath killing themselves in final 4 or 3 is as good as killing town, if not better. Both are good to be sure and accelerate days. But killing good players confirms them as Minions at worse and potentially not drunk, along with misreading who is a Demon candidate. At the very least, every psycho should consider killing themselves unless there is a more confirmed player. While they can rush nom for confusion, an outted Psycho is never a Demon candidate. In other words, don’t be afraid to take yourself off the board to help the Demon

[night ingot]

i agree with this

3 for 3s are more beneficial to evil IMO in all circumstances

its better to just hardclaim a lie if you want to hide it

this opens up double blffing a lot more

for instance a soldier can bluff RK hoping its a bluff

[flat lintel]

I would say 2f2s are pretty good

Not everyone wants to do 1f1s

If people want to play the game and want to do 2f2s, just follow through

You can state that you want to do 1f1s, but if the other person gives you a 2, welp

[flat lintel]

This is not a hot take, just the truth!

[flat lintel]

I'm finally happy that Spy has found itself an S tier combo that ISN'T jinxed, but yeah, the untrackability is crazy, however, very happy for my dear old Spy

[dense moat]

yeah but i feel like its something new players with psychopath might miss

[flat lintel]

I tried that, didn't work out, people want their claims...

[dense moat]

they might not immediately get the value of killing yourself

[flat lintel]

true

[flat lintel]

This made me think for a bit.

I have a question, do you think there should be a clause similar to Politican for Mezepheles? In the case of Politican, they have to actively hurt the good team to becom evil which is the Outsider's purpose. In the case of Mezepheles, they turn someone evil and now they have to win for evil by helping the Demon in whatever way which is the Minion's purpose. Were do you think there should be a line for the Mezepheles? Do you think this line should consider Minion/Outsider lines??

[dense moat]

i think the risk is that no one will consdier it worthwhile to play evil

[flat lintel]

Yeah aka outting the Mez word

[dense moat]

they might, but mez only had power if good considers it more worthwhile to turn. otherwise they are a minion with no power who probably outs to someone

[flat lintel]

but leelou brings up a good point. When you are the Mezepheles, you always got that one friend you are playing the game with, or you know that one choatic player who will say the mez word, so is that really a risk?

[dense moat]

i guess. its group dependent, but then mez is supposed to be social

ive likely created worse homebrew minions in that arena anyway

[spiral pollen]

Balloonist and poisoner isn't that bad an interaction

I don't think it's much worse than FT poisoner

[signal holly]

the issue is that balloonist info is dependent on other balloonist info to be meaningful

a single balloonist ping means nothing (barring the meta-read of "this was the ping the ST chose to give first")

if an FT is poisoned, you at least know that nobody else was poisoned on the same night as the FT, and can throw out worlds that require both the FT and the Empath to be poisoned at the same time

whereas if the balloonist is poisoned n3 and sees a second townsfolk even though they saw one n2... that's indistinguishable from the balloonist being poisoned n2 and then sober n3

[indigo osprey]

it's not ideal, no

[spiral pollen]

one name isn't useful, but if you can discard a name them the other 3 are still useful

[sweet birch]

Big if

Again, you wouldn't know which name to discard

[signal holly]

(to be clear, I think Balloonist being droisoned is fine)
(even Balloonist-Vortox, which is super ugly, is fine)

(it's specifically Poisoner, as the only explicitly temporary evil-controlled source of poison, because due to the way Balloonist works a Poisoner can destroy all of a Balloonist's info in a single night - and more than that, the existence of a Poisoner makes Balloonist info almost unusable because it's unrealistic to be confident that the Balloonist has never been poisoned)

(and specifically Balloonist, because a single soberhealthy night of Balloonist info means literally nothing unless you know another soberhealthy night of Balloonist info to compare it to)

[buoyant pond]

it's much worse than FT poisoner

poisoner is inherently hard to track but a balloonist who gets poisoned one night vs fortune teller who got poisoned one night is very different

much easier to tell with fortune teller, and the single night poison is much more detrimental to the balloonist due to how their info is linked to previous and future info

[sweet birch]

Plus sometimes a poisoned FT will have to get sober info anyway (say they pick two minions), whereas with a balloonist it doesn't matter because of the dependency on the balloonist's other info

[severe raven]

Thoughts on the Barista experience? I've never actually been the Barista, and it changes the game considerably, but the fact that you have 0 agency over your ability is kinda weird, and not necessarily in a good way...

[hot orchid]

I personally might try running Barista in such a way that I ask them if they want to fire a 1 or a 2, although I don't necessarily have to follow through on that

Especially if they're good

Evil Barista needs more ST involvement tbh

[past kayak]

Barista is fun! Keep in mind that Travelers are inherently meant to be more casual than normal characters, “minimal responsibility” was one of the stated goals of their design

It’s a nice way to kick your feet back and hang out with your friends in a low-commitment way, and it’s always fun to watch how a Barista can affect the game.
And like Eldrazi said, just because the ability is under ST purview doesn’t mean the Barista can’t make requests. I personally run it like Pacifist where I’m willing to lean towards what the player wants the role to do

[fast anchor]

No different from a character like the Scapegoat or Bishop IMO. Play the social game and try and figure out who you’re affecting to learn who’s likely on your team and who you want to execute.

[past kayak]

11/13: What’s a role that doesn’t get enough love?

[tall raft]

[severe raven]

because it can never get enough. Heh heh.

More seriously... is very versatile. 's expendability is a strength. And it seems like very few people use outside of its base script for some reason...

I really like the evil team's tactical game with Spy and Pit-Hag.

[spiral pollen]

cult leader

hmm

I'd say vizier but its pretty hard to fit on a script anyway

I'd say huntsman and general as well

[fast anchor]

The easy answer is because nobody puts it on scripts 😭

Outside of that... is rightfully on a lot of customs but should be in play more. I think that can be very fun on the right custom (though BMR is probably where it feels the most "at home"). And is just a blast of a loud minion that I think a lot of scripts could work well with

[spiral pollen]

nightwatchman is really OP

tbh

it does require careful script design

[sweet birch]

I really like Engineer! I wish it was in more scripts.

[tall raft]

Not great

But way too hated

[spiral pollen]

steward?

who hates steward

[sweet birch]

Idk anyone who hates steward but it is very boring, nobody seems too jazzed about it

[spiral pollen]

you start knowing 1 good player

[tall raft]

At least it's not knight

[sharp violet]

I like knight, but my answer is the classic

[spiral pollen]

WW is underused

Although it does seem like half of what makes it interesting is the spy interaction

[fast anchor]

it DOES feel like every script that could have WW has pixie instead

[sweet birch]

This is true, but have you considered: madness is much more fun

[indigo osprey]

That’s 95% of it

If there is no spy on the scrpt: if someone comes to me day 1 and coldcalls my roll, I am trusting that player

[dense moat]

I feel like I never see Evil Twin on any script ever. Admittly, it does mean dealing with a more visible minion on script and not every role can be a twin (Dreamer breaks twins). But there’s all sorts of fun options especially if the twins get ongoing info or something more mechanical. I’d love to see Innkeeper Twins, Balloonist Twins, Fisher Twins, Noble twins (who don’t receive each other). Even some Outsiders like Butler or Puzzlemaster can make semi useful twins, though that’s much harder.

[indigo osprey]

Dreamer can basically only solve twins in a vortox world? In every other game; dreamer is useless to solve for twins

Ah, you mean the dreamer is the twin

Well, if there is also a spy on the script, that would be funny

But other than that..::

[sweet birch]

Omg imagine executing the spy and losing 💀

[peak adder]

the spy gives both twins the grim

[past kayak]

11/15: What roles or scripts are difficult to balance/run as an ST?

[indigo osprey]

Savant and dreamer are probably the two most difficult ones

[cursive cobalt]

Honestly? Speaking from personal experience… the General is deceptively difficult to run.

On paper, it seems easy; however, having a General in the game forces you, the ST, to pay attention to every aspect of the game far more than you otherwise might

You need to weigh every single factor, mechanical and social, against every other factor

Take what the General did into consideration with extra weight

And then give a 3-5 degree result that is most likely to give the General useful information that’s free of bias and actionable for the player… every night.

General is a very easy character to ruin

If you, the ST, miss something that the General doesn’t, they’ll misattribute their information to an external factor and blame you when it’s wrong

Alternatively, giving heavily biased info (“I think the Poisoner is OP— therefore, I’ll give ‘evil’ N1 simply because it’s in play”) can result in the character’s information becoming extremely muddy, unreliable, and inactionable due to the General’s own evaluations being completely dissonant from the Storyteller’s

So… all this amounts to you having to to make a weighted, objective analysis of the entire gamestate that takes into consideration every single possible factor while still weighting the result depending on how the General is hoping to learn from their information

If the General is using their information to test a world, you should weight it so they get more actionable information and therefore have a better time utilizing said information

That’s one of the most difficult parts of running General I don’t see a lot of STs do

And it can be a lot to handle sometimes

Bad General info ruins games

The reason General is often looked down upon compared to its brethren is because many STs don’t know how to run it properly

And therefore

Its information is seen as too ambiguous to be usable

That’s General when it’s run poorly

And seeing how many STs do that out of naivety

I’d say that’s proof enough that the General is one of the most difficult characters to run well in all of Clocktower.

[past kayak]

@cursive cobalt Do you think that it would help if the ST talks with the General before the game about how they decide General info and what factors they look at?
I think this would help the General to interpret their info, only issue is evil players getting caught out when they bluff General but haven’t gotten the ST debrief

[cursive cobalt]

That’s what I do anyway!

[past kayak]

Or would it be just a general (heh) announcement to the players before the game begins, regardless of whether General is in play
That could work in text games but I see it being annoying in live games

[cursive cobalt]

Slightly Good: Good has a visible advantage over evil that they may or may not be able to capitalize on.

Neutral: Neither team has a visible advantage over the other.

Slightly Evil: Evil has a visible advantage over good that they may or may not be able to capitalize on.

Evil: Evil has a strong lead against good and will most likely be able to capitalize on their advantage in the near future.```

I use this chart for determining General information, and I always let Generals know this before the game begins

Over text, I usually post it publicly if I’m running a General script

So evil doesn’t get caught out like you said

[flat lintel]

Savant for sure in live

It's because 9/10 you aren't thinking about Savant info ahead of time

and sometimes you are in between starting the day so your players don't get bored, or not and making info and waiting for approval

but for those of you thinking I don't run savant

I still run savant

this is unmetable

[cursive cobalt]

I’m sorry but that sounds kinda like a skill issue

There’s plenty of time during the day, when you have nothing else to do but run nominations, to think of information that carries over to the next day

Same while evaluating actions at night

[flat lintel]

Like what? the time where I'm being bombarded with requests for consults, and etc. or have to count nominations

[cursive cobalt]

Are you not a multitasker?

[flat lintel]

I usually use some of the whisper period to get some water or take care of some needs

[cursive cobalt]

Because Savant information requires you to multitask

[flat lintel]

yeah but than you also want to give good savant info

[cursive cobalt]

You need to keep it in mind while doing stuff like counting votes and waking people

[sweet birch]

Also you gotta listen to people talk if you've got a madness role of some sort in play

[flat lintel]

also I run Live text strictly

[cursive cobalt]

Running the game smoothly and putting thought into information aren’t mutually exclusive

[flat lintel]

the start of the day is me just helping people out when they want to

[cursive cobalt]

Listening to people talk is a good habit

It helps you run a lot of roles better

One of those being Savant

[sweet birch]

Well yeah, point being it's more on the plate

Savant is hard, that's just objective truth

[flat lintel]

I'm glad that you can run run Savant and a game at the same time without it being an issue, Temporary...

[sweet birch]

Although I would add to Nexus' point and say it's also hard in text

[flat lintel]

but I think I feel as most STs struggle with this point in general

[cursive cobalt]

If you want I can give you some advice

I’m not trying to be condescending here

I genuinely do want to know why it’s difficult for some

And perhaps help with that

[sweet birch]

The tough thing with savant is being able to evaluate the gamestate in such a way as to not produce information that will break the game

[cursive cobalt]

Of course

[peak adder]

Maybe it’s just because it’s not the way I’m used to talking about the game, but “skill issue” sounds like such an unkind way to say that different people just have different strengths and weaknesses and skills. It’s not an issue it’s just a fact. And Nexus I think it’s really cool that you are still willing to run Savant despite struggling with it

I’ve only run Savant once or twice and I’m not going to get a good amount of practice anytime soon because when I do get the opportunity to Storytell, setting up a game that I’m confident will be balanced and run well and that the players will enjoy starts in the script selection phase

[severe raven]

Maybe a better way to practice is to bluff Savant more as an evil player? If you give fake info that seems too "game-solving", people may quickly realize that you aren't making sense, and they'll suspect you. The stakes are a lot lower in that case (especially if you're a Minion, but even if you are the Demon, it's a very natural way to lose a game).

You can also just have a ready repertoire that you can fall back on.
The Outsider count has (not)? been modified
(At least one|None) of your neighbors (is|are) drunk, poisoned, or affected by madness
(A|No) Minion selected the same player twice in a row
Right now, the true (Chef|Clockmaker|Oracle) number is (at least|at most|equal to) [0-4]... (don't give exact Clockmaker values, but exact Chef values are fine since they are almost always 0 or 1)

[flat lintel]

my savant info as the evil pithag on Final day: this is a legion game

in SNV

but that’s not bad advice

hopefully more LT scripts have savant

but in general Text would be near impossible

[sharp violet]

11/20: What's the worst criticism that you've heard about BotC before?

[cursive cobalt]

Worst as in harshest or worst as in most poorly formulated?

[sharp violet]

Either one

[fast anchor]

any complaint about game length. That’s an ST issue first and foremost

[flat lintel]

sometimes the characters

[hot orchid]

Lack of characters on their own team (a la Tanner or Chaos Agent)

[cursive cobalt]

11/22: What is the most appealing aspect of Clocktower for you personally? (Basically, what makes you enjoy playing games?)

[severe raven]

🤔🧩✅❌ ➡️ 🏆
🤥🧠😏🗒️ ➡️ 🏆

[flat lintel]

11/23: What is a server meta you dislike?

[flat lintel]

making plays

[sharp violet]

"X player" always evil

(It's not just this server)

[flat lintel]

I don't get that meta

Is it that said player draws red so much that they're evil all the time?

[sharp violet]

They play chaotically which makes people always think they're evil, and the times that they are get used as confirmation bias

Or their most memorable early game was one where they were evil

[cursive cobalt]

Policy-execute spent roles/outsiders

[fast anchor]

"the harder you fight your execution the more evil you are"

[flat lintel]

OMG this one is so real

i ALWAYS fight my execution

im glad people are starting to understand that

but fighting your accusation is playing the game

[severe raven]

Chaos Mezepheles words. I feel like Mezepheles is supposed to be a back-door betrayal, not something you pretend just for the lulz

[dense moat]

Does this mean just always saying a Mez word regardless of alignment? And saying whatever words you receive in return?

[cursive cobalt]

It means that everyone in a game gives out a word that everyone else says.

Even if they’re not the mezephiles

[dense moat]

It is mechanically good to encourage if you’re the Mez. But it’s not good for town. And abusing meta like that is usually questionable at best

[cursive cobalt]

It’s a form of range balancing

And range balancing never results in good metas

[flat lintel]

This kinda loops into a previous conversation

The difference between playing to win vs playing for fun

[sweet birch]

"Blue token inactivity meta"

Namely the idea that good players are less active just because they don't have as much fun when playing for good

Sometimes they're also inactive when they draw red tokens 🙃

[sweet birch]

Or rather, the idea that all inactive players are more likely to be good-aligned

[cursive cobalt]

I love playing for good though

:/

Seriously

This is a legitimate issue though

I know some players who will ham it up as soon as they draw evil and spend the entire game causing chaos with a huge grin on their face

But then become completely stoic as good

With the classic "give out info, sit there and vote with town" mindset that clearly shows they're not having that much fun

Which is pretty problematic

Why play a social deduction game if you absolutely despise being of a certain alignment?

[obtuse shell]

I would personally say people executing me just because I guessed someone as the Damsel when I was a Townsfolk

[cursive cobalt]

That’s pretty justified in most scenarios

Townsfolk have very little to gain out of guessing a damsel

So 90% of the time, it’s a minion doing it

[obtuse shell]

I do it to make myself more suspicious and less likely to die at night occasionally

[cursive cobalt]

The thing about that is… if you’re suspicious, town tends to execute you

You can’t really blame them for that

[obtuse shell]

I don't blame them most of the time

but the strategy works like 3/4 of the time

[flat lintel]

blue token is mainly a text issue that the text community is experiencing

yes, the text community has some problems

[flat lintel]

10/25: Do we need a new hideout?

[peak adder]

I think this one's just fine 🥰

[flat lintel]

that kinda sounds like a threat mixed in with kindness lmao

[sharp violet]

The thread can only end up staying secret if nobody chats in it, if it receives activity it will be pushed to the top of the list and naturally receive attention. For this reason I don't think we need to replace our hideout, if we do it'll either end up like this again or it will die

_

[flat lintel]

10/26: If someone created a BOTC musical or play, would you try to be an actor in it or something?

tbh, im not sure if they are allowed to without the botc group's permission

[sharp violet]

I probably wouldn't have the time to participate in it, but if I had to participate I would probably try to get a role that dies n3 or n4

[minor pier]

I'd rather write the script or work on props/special effects x)

[flat lintel]

I would love to write a script for a botc play (not a musical dear god no)

[cursive cobalt]

I would definitely want to take part in the writing and composition process

Acting isn't my forte though

I've never done it before

[severe raven]

I would want to be the Mathematician or the Amnesiac. If it were TB, then probably FT or procced Virgin. Or Spy.

[cursive cobalt]

Specifically the procced Virgin?

Would they just swap out the actor for the unprocced Virgin for you when the time comes

[hot orchid]

I'd be down to act it although I'm only alright

It seems fun

I think I could do a good Baron

I sort of have the hat I put it on sometimes and cackle at the mirror

[signal holly]

I could play a solid Recluse

get one line where I tell people to leave me alone and then close the door in their face

[severe raven]

Ok, the Virgin that gets procced during the game. So everyone trusts me with their info.

[cursive cobalt]

I know, its a joke

[flat lintel]

I would love to hear from @peak adder

[peak adder]

I always get cast as ensemble/chorus roles in musicals because I can sing but can’t act

[exotic bone]

Far too much stage fright to be on stage but helping with tech on a botc play/musical could be neat

[fast anchor]

^^^ this is also me

[severe raven]

I don't think I can sing, but it doesn't matter if I'm the Mathematician

[fast anchor]

Everyone needs to sing in a musical!!

[cursive cobalt]

The Mathematician definitely sounds like they would be more of a rapper than a singer

[severe raven]

I might only register as being unable to sing

[fast anchor]

and, excuse the cliché, but everyone can sing (unless you don't have lungs, or are Steven Hawking or something and can't use your vocal cords)

that being said I also like rapper math

[sharp violet]

Anyways watch me actually get cast as the Choirboy and learn the Demon

Main character energy

[cursive cobalt]

Re-enacting the Choirboy flavor text sounds like it would be very cool

[tall raft]

Whose going to be the creepy organist

[cursive cobalt]

11/27: What, in your opinion, is the most forgettable role in Clocktower?

[past kayak]

Acrobat (because it never gets used)

[sharp violet]

Washerwoman

[minor pier]

Agreed on Acrobat, I do like it too. If Travellers are on the table, Scapegoat is meh. If Fabled, Ferryman.

[fast anchor]

Beggar’s surely more forgettable than Scapegoat

[minor pier]

Beggar, Scapegoat, Thief and Bureaucrat are all on my list, not sure which one I'd put on top to be fair;

[spiral pollen]

Buddhist, fibbin, duchess

Do those count

[cursive cobalt]

Fabled are technically characters

So I suppose so

[sharp violet]

Then definitely Buddhist

[indigo osprey]

I have a a script called 'A little bit of duchess never hurt nobody', which is designed around having duchess in play

[dense moat]

Minstrel. It's probably one of the least used BMR roles

[fast anchor]

tbf, Minstrel is great on BMR; it just sucks to build around on customs

[flat lintel]

teach me how to

[flat lintel]

duchess has a home script

fibbin finds itself in the "Bad" series

so buddhist 100%

any base script character does not count

[shadow smelt]

Duchess has a home script?

[spiral pollen]

Ok honestly

I forget harpy exists sometimes

[sharp violet]

I feel like the newer experimental characters are too fresh to be forgotten, but Knight comes close

[tall raft]

I remember knight just to hate it

[sharp violet]

I remember knight just so it wont be forgotten (same with Washerwoman but I forget that one sometimes)

[tall raft]

WW is in TB

It will never be forgotten

[sharp violet]

I have never seen it outside of TB

not once

[tall raft]

It’s extremely strong

[peak adder]

too strong for customs

I almost put it on my script but nah Pixie fit much better

[shadow smelt]

People are addicted to putting knight on scripts with like, fang Gu/scarlet woman

And I'm just like. Why

[peak adder]

because knight is too strong otherwise apparently

your info’s not allowed to mean anything

[sharp violet]

People want weak characters it seems

[shadow smelt]

I think it's more that people love to think of every possible interaction a character can have and cram it into one game

[peak adder]

weak good characters. Evil can be super strong because it’s edgy and cool

[shadow smelt]

Without considering whether it actually makes the game enjoyable for the players

[flat lintel]

that's a good one

but I remember it because of madness

and @sweet birch 😠

[sweet birch]

Idk what you're talking about, you weren't in that game iirc

[flat lintel]

i was vigor poisoned 😠 how could I NOT have been in that game

[sweet birch]

Or ig rather idk why you'd have that trauma

[flat lintel]

fax

who wants good players that can solve the game?

instead have 13 s

wait no

now I want to make a script with 13 s

[sweet birch]

I mean sure but it wasn't my fault

But yeah sorry I forgot you were there, if it makes you feel better the same is true of most of the good team

[flat lintel]

it's good!

that was a funnie game

[sweet birch]

Yeah I just wish ppl were chill

Then it could've been even funnier

[flat lintel]

mid game?

oh yeah midgame was insane

[fast anchor]

I guess Spooky Tea?

[cursive cobalt]

Evil bias is crazy

You'll have somene roll up with a script with Legion Atheist Vortox and Heretic

And everyone will praise it for being "nuanced" and "spicy"

But as soon as you introduce a script with kind of remotely powerful combination of good characters

People immediately demand you remove the interaction

Its actually insane how much the stream games have perpetuated this sense that "evil is inherently at a disadvantage no matter what they do, so they need to be babysat by whatever means possible to compensate"

When that statement is straight up not true

[tall raft]

no they don't?

[cursive cobalt]

Have you been on the BOTC reddit before

Some of the takes Ive seen on there are something else

Of course

[tall raft]

okay fair, but I don't think reddit is a fair comparison to most players

[cursive cobalt]

This doesnt represent the entire playerbase

But the fact that evil bias exists to this degree for what I would name as still a reletively substantial amount of players surprises me

[spiral pollen]

I forget about snitch too

[severe raven]

I think I've seen Washerwoman on customs. I don't think I have ever seen Butler.

[cursive cobalt]

I’m 90% sure Butler is on sliced n diced

[severe raven]

Washerwoman: 218
Butler: 190

[flat lintel]

most tb/snv/bmr characters aren't getting forgetten

[severe raven]

I do wonder how many of those are just TB variants tho

[flat lintel]

10/28: To my text gamers, what do you do if someone is holding their vote on the clockhand?

[obtuse shell]

from someone who doesn't understand text

what does that mean

[flat lintel]

The spinny clockhand is on them

[obtuse shell]

oh is that when someone is just not voting

[sweet birch]

Yes

And the answer is you ping them until they do

And if they default then it's time to give some serious consideration to subbing them out.

[flat lintel]

What if its bc theyre thinking

[severe raven]

(I'm curious how your text games are different from BGG Play by Forum: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/240980/blood-clocktower/forums/194 (game 124 wasn't that great, ignore that one))

[sweet birch]

Too bad, clockhand is on them

This is something I see specified in a lot of rulesets

and honestly a point of etiquette even?

[sweet birch]

*assuming day is over by this point

If day isn't over then yeah, valid, but once it ends they need to vote

Ideally they'll have had several hours to do so

And if your first nom is being made within like 2h of day ending then something has gone wrong

Wrong like "ST should self-reflect on why players aren't engaging"

[past kayak]

Just like in in-person games, nominations should be processed promptly, and people should not have the luxury of just stalling the vote so they can mull it over. They usually have several hours to think before the clockhand falls on them, that's plenty of time

[sweet birch]

Oh yeah that's the other thing, allowing for deliberate stalling gives an advantage to the good team

More time to solve can be the difference maker

[past kayak]

For in-person games you get like, what, a couple of minutes to think? It's supposed to be a time constraint

[exotic bone]

I agree with what folks are saying
plus I feel like part of the idea of voting in live games is that once you actually start going around the clockhand, you shouldn't have a lot of time to think based on what the people around you are voting
yeah saliban pretty much made my point lol

[fast anchor]

ping them relentlessly and ask them to vote

[tall raft]

Cry

[cursive cobalt]

11/29: Generally, do you as a player prefer utilizing your ability more passively or more actively?

[fleet night]

More actively, absolutely

[minor pier]

I like being active. Some character do not lend themselves to that as well as others.

[cursive cobalt]

Well, most characters have a very decent playstyle for both active and passive utilizations of their ability

I can only think of one noticeable exception, and it’s one that can be corrected quite easily by good storytelling

[severe raven]

Active Soldier would be claiming powerful roles to get the Demon to kill you?

I like being active with info and passive with most Outsiders.

[cursive cobalt]

Yeah, I would say so.

Active play is playing in a such a way that you’re either trying to “proc” your ability deliberately, or otherwise trying to maximize the value you can get from it directly (usually has higher payoff for higher risk)

Passive play is playing independently from the factors of your ability while also reactively acting on it’s passive benefits as the game goes on (as you’re trusting your ability will get value on its own), and is often associated with more consistent value

[exotic bone]

Most of the time I try to play actively, although for some roles idk how to

[cursive cobalt]

What are those roles?

[exotic bone]

looking through the list most of them it's moreso i think playing them actively is too much of a risk, i guess i don't really see how you could be active as heretic since if you out that then demon just kills themselves in the night and you lose immediately

[cursive cobalt]

The way you play actively as a Heretic is to try to stabotage your own team

As opposed to the passive "hide and come out in F3" playstyle

[exotic bone]

i see that makes sense

[past kayak]

This is why I think Politician is the absolute best role to combo with Heretic on custom scripts, it provides a perfect smokescreen for Heretics to “play for evil” without alerting the evil team that there’s a Heretic in play. And vice-versa, Heretic is a wonderful bluff for Politician!

[spiral pollen]

granted I've never been a heretic, I think the best way to play it would be to get a circle of trust going

which means trustfalling with some good players

[severe raven]

The problem is, you don't want the evil team to learn that you're forming a cabal. I think good's loss in this stream game (with Ben, Kat, and Jams in the cabal!!) was partly due to Kat's "Nicky, this is a bad idea" at 1:21:50. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1w5MEX1_Xc

[spiral pollen]

yep its a challenge

[cursive cobalt]

12/2: What's your favorite subcategory of Townsfolk? (Start knowings, each nights, each night*s, each days, once per games, or miscellaneous)?

[obtuse shell]

each night for the Cult Leader

[minor pier]

I like some misc but not all ; start knowing & once per game I don't enjoy much. From the three left, I'm in the each night* camp I'd wager.

[abstract cosmos]

each day consults are fun

[sweet birch]

Each day consults

Both official and not

[past kayak]

I like each nights, it rewards players for surviving, but if they get killed immediately they still had one use of their ability

[flat lintel]

Each anything

As long as I do smth

[tall raft]

Once per games

Mostly the night ones

[sharp violet]

Start knowing, because I feel they're underappreciated

[sweet birch]

The newer YSK are really interesting

The "one of two players is this" YSK aren't as much

[severe raven]

Information roles. To me, it doesn't matter what the Chambermaid thinks of them.
Stuff like Monk and Minstrel can be interesting, but it feels like it is really hard to find good, deep strategy scripts (BMR and HHR exist, yes, but BMR has always felt rather shallow and HHR is intensely informational) and so out of the Data/Worf/Troi triad I always go for Data.

[spiral pollen]

I like mathematician but its sort of in its own category I guess

[spiral pollen]

If they ever make another character like mathematician then it'll be an awkward question as to how they interact with each other

[night ingot]

ST control over the info

You have the opportunity to give unique info that varies game to game

it makes eacah game feel different from the last whichi keeps things fresh

[severe raven]

Actually, you know what I really enjoy? The open-ended roles. I'm talking about:

• ST controlled: Savant, Amnesiac, Fisherman, Atheist (NOT Dreamer)
• Player controlled: Gossip, Artist, Harpy, Legion (if other open-ended roles are on the script)
  I like games where you can be creative, which is admittedly difficult, but in a moderated game it works really well.

I am trying to make a script with as much open-endedness as possible, but I'm running out of Townsfolk after including everything listed here plus the three recycling roles (Philo, Pixie, Cannibal). I'm anxiously awaiting Garden of Sin...

[flat lintel]

Gossip is a bit of both. Harpy tooz

[indigo osprey]

as a storyteller, you wont be able to follow the game when you do that

[severe raven]

Explain?

[indigo osprey]

If during the game you are answering savant information, amnesiac questions, fisherman advice + the people who are also bluffing these roles, including pixies, cannibals who are coming to check, artist questions, etc. And at the same time you are also supposed to check harpy madness perhaps cera-madness, etc. It's just too much. I Have tried scripts like that: it's just not reasonable feasible. Throughout the day you are constantly talking to people in private and you have 0 time to follow the game during private chats.

The script is possible, but don't put harpy or other madness characters on it, if you intend to follow them to check for madness: you simply don't hve the time during the day.

[flat lintel]

12/5: What is something you are excited about recently?

[severe raven]

I want to be excited for whenever Garden of Sin gets released

[dense moat]

I played Lizards and actually won (though as Townsfolk). I was Spy Lizard and I got to out an evil in help with a Gangster Townsfolk

[sweet birch]

Having #1175522780490510376 named after me explicitly

[cursive cobalt]

12/9: What's a dynamic within a game other people find fun that you don't? (Or vice versa: what's a dynamic within a game you find fun but other people don't?)

[flat lintel]

Thats a tough one

What would be your answer

[obtuse shell]

I really love Godfather -1

and a lot of people don't

[severe raven]

I do not at ALL like these behaviors (for these reasons):
(1) I walk up to someone and pretend to be the Lunatic (claim demon, give bluffs, ask which Minion). Despite being good, the other person plays along. (I don't do this often, but my behavior is explicitly fishing for gullible Minions.)
(2) Several good players give "secret words" in a Mezepheles script hoping I say some or all of them. (If I'm going to turn evil, I want to know who turned me. Also, if you're going to trick me, I'd at least want to know after the fact who it was.)
(3) More generally I don't like when people use social tells first and info/strategy purely to supplement them. (I'm a world-builder. I prefer the other way around: build worlds, then use socials when you can't decide which world to use.)

[cursive cobalt]

Honestly, the simplest way I can answer this question is just to say Legion

lmao

But I do have some more as well

"Policy execute spent roles/outsiders" is a playstyle I heavily dislike and try to discourage in games where I'm in

As thelast19digitsofpi mentioned, hidden meze words are pretty bleh

Sentinel provides a dynamic that some people like... me not being one of them

[spiral pollen]

I don't like sentinel but sometimes its forced

nothing else works

[cursive cobalt]

this is why we need more evil outsider mod

[spiral pollen]

or good outsider mod but more variable than +1

[cursive cobalt]

A townsfolk with a +1 or -1 attribute would be very interesting

[cursive cobalt]

Overall, I tend to dislike dynamics that sacrifice the puzzle-nature of the game for "mystery"

[flat lintel]

1. It could also be that the player is trying to fish u back somehow idk ask y00 i think he did this b4

[cursive cobalt]

Which extends not only to Sentinel, but also to some metas of running roles

"Oh, but it's possible the Pacifist actually prevented that Tea Lady test execution and their other neighbor is actually evil!"
"Ooh, but the Gambler could have been Gossip killed instead! How interesting!"

Those kinds of dynamics don't really vibe with me

Ambiguity is fun a lot of the time

But the parameters in which its set up do matter for me

[flat lintel]

#homebrew-characters message

[cursive cobalt]

GF -1 is hella underrated

[severe raven]

Someone who's "fishing" me back is fooling no one. If I'm a Lunatic who saw them, they're making me play for evil. If I'm the actual Lunatic who saw different minions, or an evil player, then they are fooling no one.

[cursive cobalt]

I really dont see why good players play along

When it comes to Lunatics

Sure, it causes chaos, but it's also actively hurting your team's position in pretty much any scenario

Chaos shouldnt be worth that

[spiral pollen]

I do often make it easy for minions to play along with me being the lunatic on purpose

if I am the lunatic

or demon

[cursive cobalt]

...range balancing?

[spiral pollen]

more fun

[cursive cobalt]

I have a irk when it comes to range balancing

Because I just find that it goes against game integrity

I guess that's another dynamic to include

[flat lintel]

Some people do it to just have fun

Sometimes I play against my current team, but I always make sure I end up hard playing for what I think is my team

You don’t need to play A-Z for the good team or the evil team, sometimes u can have a bit of funzies and than come back to it

[cursive cobalt]

That's

Hmm

Well

somebody put the empath sticker here

but i dont really like playing with players like that

i guess its just a difference in preference

[tall raft]

Very small games 5-6 for teensy, 7-9 for full games

[severe raven]

The problem with EMPATW is that sometimes, players' play styles directly go against other people's play styles.
I know this is an extreme example, but I saw a player on a stream game (not TPI) was the Ravenkeeper in TB and died going into final 3. Call the final three A, B, and C. The RK checked C and learned a Minion... but told the town they saw A as the Imp, presumably due to social reads on A. As it happened, guess who the real Imp was.
Now, I can't use the th-word since it was a 50-50 from that player's POV, but I can't think of a more polite word than either "recklessness" or "hubris". Players like that, who actively sabotage the flow of information... I would insist that they repent of their ways before I played with them again.

It's the classic paradox of "tolerance of intolerance": the more open and welcoming you are, the more likely you are to attract people who are not open and welcoming.

[fast anchor]

idk, to me, it's a valid play to lie in a game where lying is expected

[cursive cobalt]

Intent is the difference here

When you’re lying to gambit, you risk that gambit failing

[fast anchor]

it's a little annoying to be on the losing side, for sure, but it's to be expected

[cursive cobalt]

And you losing because of that can’t be attributed to “well, it could have worked” in scenarios like the RK one

I feel like many players would still be very upset with players who do that

A strategy having a chance at working doesn’t justify it always being beneficial to perform

Especially if the majority of the group is better off if it’s not employed

[fast anchor]

oh 100% it's not beneficial to the good team, but if someone wants to play that way, that's their perogative

I definitely wouldn't compare it to the paradox of intolerance

[severe raven]

The RK lying in F3 doesn't have any real reason, tho... there's no madness, and no more demon kills where you might want to hide info. Even if you're a social-read player, I see nothing wrong with saying "I'm the Ravenkeeper, I checked C and they're a Minion, so out of A and B I think A is the Demon." At least then, you clearly separate fact from opinion, and are open to other people who might think B is the Demon... and if the town executes A, it's truly an honest mistake, evil wins.

The problem I'm getting at is that such moves undermine... deep breath... the rights of other players (say, those preferring info) to play as they wish.

I must admit I'm getting a bit emotional with this, but when I saw that game (watching in chat), some chatters criticized the move as "throwing", which caused the stream people to defend the player... I'm trying not to name names but... that was the starting point that led to me being... well, I guess "left in the cold" in the Clocktower world. I'm now a Clocktower nomad with no real community, scarred with a likely irrational but highly sticky fear of people who don't put info and strategy first and foremost. And I can't find sufficient numbers of like-minded players to feel comfortable anywhere... except one place that works about 50% of the time but is rather hierarchical.

[indigo osprey]

Good players goving fake mezz words are good players sabotaging an evil ability; how is that bad?

[vale oxide]

What is this thread? You just ask and answer BotC related questions? It's not really a script is it 😄

[copper quail]

It is not

But that's fun

[vale oxide]

True

[severe raven]

I feel like it makes it easier for the mez to successfully turn someone. There's no need for the mez to carefully consider whether the risk of outing is bad; they just throw their word around and 1 person turns evil!

[tall raft]

I've never been rejected as the mez

And throwing words around is not nearly the best strategy for mez, although it does work

[flat lintel]

I think the F3 was an extreme but also I think your feelings are justified. There are times where I've thought of doing it because I really think a player is evil and know nobody is going to listen to me if I say otherwise, but yeah letting town make the consensus should go without saying at F3. Normally, you should come out with your info at F3 truthfully if you are playing (except if you are evil, poli, etc.)

[flat lintel]

In my experience, it normally doesn't matter tbh? People LOVE Mez words and if you are playing with a group who is throwing out mez words you know they'll accept them in a heartbeat. It's up to you if you are like I don't want to play this game or with this group because I don't like how they treat mez, but in my experience, I've never seen someone just say no to a mez unless they were like losing

[cursive cobalt]

One of the reasons I don't watch stream games anymore.

[night ingot]

3 for 3s, although i think ive talked about this before

oh also when people absolutely refuse to share information

especially publicly

[severe raven]

I just don't usually know what to say other than a 3f3 or 2f2. Maybe because there is a meta of having as many private chats as you can?

[tall raft]

Hard claim!!
Wooo!

I don't care if you lie, I just want something to go off of

[fast anchor]

^^^ I will lie my ass off in a hardclaim even when i'm good because giving an evil player a 2f2/3f3 that includes a bluff tells them what you are

if I'm the RK and i tell people Monk/RK in a 2f2, and Monk is a bluff, it's over

if I lie in a HC the only thing evil knows is that I'm not the Monk

[vale oxide]

I don't like 3f3s, 2f2s are much better imo

[vale oxide]

That's a fair point though

[spiral pollen]

To be fair I think claiming someone is the imp in f3 might be a decent play to bait a reaction, but as long as you retract it later

Maintaining the lie is basically hijacking the game and making yourself the protagonist

Rendering everything previous a bit pointless

[cursive cobalt]

12/16: What's the best game you remember that didn't go to final three?

[exotic bone]

maybe i'm biased by recency but #besjbo-vs-the-gays was a good one imo

[indigo osprey]

in a 8-9 player game of trouble brewing, I put in all 4 starting information roles, the poisoner poisoned the chef and based on the wrong chef information they deduced that the demon had to be the demon and won on day 1

[past kayak]

#1147273558481981650

[fast anchor]

#besjbo-vs-the-gays was ROBBED

also seconding mutually assured damsel, that one was heat

[sweet birch]

Went to F4, my ST forgot to wake me, the demon, up N1 so I went around telling everyone I was the Lunatic because like, why else would he do that? I ended up outing my bluffs but still made it to F4, and the whole thing has been memed to this day (I later won a text game in this same group bluffing lunatic as demon)

[flat lintel]

WAIT WHAT IS THAT GAME TITLE

[exotic bone]

To summarize evil team included moll and lucifer and besjbo did a lot of worldbuilding in that game (feel free to add on if i missed something)

[fast anchor]

it was besjbo (the good mercenary who industrially produced mechanically viable worlds) vs the gays (moll & lucifer, the two living evils after i got executed and became a distraction for the rest of the game)

what else is there to say

[cursive cobalt]

12/17: What’s a subcategory of characters you really dont like for one reason or another?

[obtuse shell]

Huntsmans

[cursive cobalt]

Does that include only huntsman or does it extend to any character whose presence gives the storyteller an option to screw with good’s worldbuilding?

[obtuse shell]

the latter

[cursive cobalt]

Very understandable

Sometimes, I’m under the impression that less is more when it comes to huntsmans

Giving the storyteller too much freedom to do whatever often bleeds into the idea of fairness within a game

That id prefer didnt exist

[spiral pollen]

I don't hate "when you die, X" outsiders but we officially have too many and not enough counterplay

There's 6

[cursive cobalt]

Yes

I agree with you there, they’re starting to get annoying

With all of them sharing essentially the exact same playstyle

But also lacking counterplay as you mentioned, it just doesn’t make them feel engaging

[spiral pollen]

Well klutz and moonchild are a bit different

You are doing something there

[cursive cobalt]

I suppose

Klutz is very good design imo

It mitigates the agency less aspect of your death by giving you a devastating, yet powerful, choice

That way if you lose because of it, it doesn’t feel like you were forced into that position

You have no one to blame but yourself

[indigo osprey]

characters with low average power but high power spikes, such as huntsman

a huntsman hitting a damsel in a once per game play is: immediate two way confirmation, an additional townsfolk (so one less bluff for evil, if it matters) and taking away a evil win con

[flat lintel]

@gilded maple ^^^

fun game af

[flat lintel]

Loud minions??

idk I just feel like as an evil player, loud minions suck

u can play around them for sure

but like it removes some of that mystery

[vale oxide]

Ooh yes definitely loud minions

[flat lintel]

you no longer need to account for 3 player confirmation chains being evil

u only need 2

[vale oxide]

They are so overrated imo

[flat lintel]

if there's 3, you know a good player is in there and probably the rest are good

[flat lintel]

Yeah

Once in a while, they're good for the soul

but like if I'm going to have to deal with a every game 🤷‍♂️

is just like bad on a script because so many reasons

just feels bad for good

if st is bad balancing, psycho can go wrong

is the exception. I will and love Al-Had, I love me some mind games.

[vale oxide]

I think characters who receive subjective info could be quite meh

Especially High Priestess, I hate high priestess

[spiral pollen]

I like psychopath a lot

[cursive cobalt]

Loud doesn’t exactly mean outed

They’re different

In general, outed minions are not at all my cup of tea though

[flat lintel]

but but they're a high priestess

[tall raft]

I love these roles

[cursive cobalt]

I love those roles specifically when the Storyteller's bullshit detector is functioning

(Well, I guess that applies to a lot of things)

[flat lintel]

Wdym?

[cursive cobalt]

As the saying goes

Bullshit General info ruins games

The same applies to any kind of guidence role

And also extends to pretty much any information given out via direct ST discretion via any form

I find that the reason people dislike guidance roles usually isn't because the concept behind them is bad, but because they've constantly seen them run in such a way that their ability was either useless or misleading

[night ingot]

ive mentioned it before but i was in a game where i was the alchemist fearmonger who won day wo from a psycho that outed day one

that game was WILD

the FT pitcked the demon twice

the sage was professor ressed

[cursive cobalt]

On the same night they died?

[night ingot]

they were psycho killed

for guidance roles they are the most powerful when the ST gives their true opinion if sover and healthy

they shouldnt be used willy nilly for "balance"

[tall raft]

Don't diss my monkey friend

[severe raven]

Characters that are so commonly thwartable that their power is near useless.
Knight... maybe this is just meta, but I so commonly see Knight pings being people who can become the demon later. Fortune Tellers can re-check their info (and in TB, Imp starpasses are kinda rare), but Knights cannot. (Knight would, of course, be much more interesting on a script without demon movement, or where it can be traceably made false so it points to the demon.)

[cursive cobalt]

I think that’s mostly a scriptbuildung issue more than anything

[hot orchid]

I think showing the Knight an Outsider in a Fang Gu game (for instance) should be fine as long as it's treated like showing the Recluse to the Investigator

[sharp violet]

12/21/23: Most thematically Christmas-related role?

[fast anchor]

sings carols!

[sharp violet]

"And the said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people." Luke 2:10

[hot orchid]

is Jesus

gives people presents or something

[dense moat]

100% Shugenja

In all seriousness, I think it’s . They represent the joy and cheer of being with love ones.

I could also see arguments for , inviting people from the cold to drink by the fire

[fast anchor]

so you're saying being drunk most of the time is christmas-related? i'm down for that

[rose vault]

If I had a nickel for every time a game ended as follows:

ST: "Everybody wakes up! Except for [Player]. Since there are 3 players alive, I'll just open nominations immediately."
Psychopath: "Well I'm the Psychopath and I stab [Player]."
ST: Congrats to the evil team...
I would have two nickels. Both times were caused by the Psychopath hiding it until final 3.

[indigo osprey]

Psychopath has to kill before nominations :p

[hot orchid]

I'd read the as, has to kill before anyone nominates, personally

Because of this specific case

[indigo osprey]

yeah, that's probably fair

I run it specifically with phases and announce 'now, nominations are open and the psychopath can't kill anymore'

but that's probably fair as well

[restive gorge]

open nominations stat for game balance ⚖️ 😎

[primal crescent]

to be fair i wouldn’t immediately open noms

i just like the group to have some uninterrupted time to discuss

[cursive cobalt]

12/27: What is your favorite type of role to bluff as when evil?

[indigo osprey]

goblin

[flat lintel]

My lawyers have advised me not to disclose this information.

[sweet birch]

Anything where I'm not providing recurring information

But my favorite is lunatic

[open pendant]

Ravenkeeper/sage esp in a vigor game. It’s good to pivot to and the info you can fake is game changing if you work with your demon

[vale oxide]

Hmm probably some roles that receive important/recurring information which can shape the town's worldbuilding

[flat lintel]

we know 😂

i am never trusting toges loony

[copper quail]

It's not a type of role but Savant ✨

[sweet birch]

I don't remember doing that with you specifically

I've done it in my other group, twice

[vale oxide]

Oh and my 2 favourite ones would be Amne and Savant probably

[flat lintel]

12/28: Thoughts on the new role?

spoilers pls

[cursive cobalt]

It's cool

[dense moat]

It’s another really ST dependent one. You have to eyeball the Outsiders on starting grim but hopefully isn’t too bad. It’s also another character that really suffers from bad Minion choice (looking at you Baron )

[hot orchid]

I think it will create fun games more than it will create engaging mechanical phenomena, and I'm here for that

[cursive cobalt]

Might wanna spoiler some of that

As with request

[fast anchor]

As mentioned in #text-game-general it feels bad for longtext where ||if you snipe the Plague Doctor, Barber, and Damsel as your minions it's much less powerful than, say, hitting the Empath, Ravenkeeper, and Savant, ||and you have to sit through 2 weeks of a game with ||crappy bluffs off something you couldn't control that well||

[tall raft]

||you also get the 3 bluffs, no?||

[fast anchor]

||Try getting Damsel, PD, and Barber as bluffs and selling a world where you’re totally good||

[tall raft]

||You get 3 more bluffs too||

||From being a demon||

[fast anchor]

||My mistake - I was reading the writeup like Ici’s Cawthane where you had to get the original character tokens as your demon bluffs||

[buoyant pond]

Even then I can still understand the frustration, never thought about the impact on text games

[sharp violet]

or

1/4/24: which face is better?

[vale oxide]

[dusky minnow]

Consider

[rose vault]

Well, the first one is reasonably possible in a BotC game. No one is allowing 3 demons to exist at once.

[indigo osprey]

imp wants a word

[obtuse shell]

[tall raft]

[sweet birch]

[hot orchid]

this is what I look like irl. If you even care

[dusky minnow]

[vale oxide]

[dense moat]

Best face

[sage atlas]

[vale oxide]

6/1/24 (the better date format):
What is your favourite jinx?

-jinx

[digital drum]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/904250103588597790/1191464619361972276/jinx_rules.png?ex=65a588e5&is=659313e5&hm=1bc9e9c5a0216aa207e7bfd590a217f1879ce28856d2be090d43a051d897efc8&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=974&height=1170

[spiral pollen]

butler and organ grinder

[vale oxide]

(sorry if this question was asked before)

[severe raven]

[spiral pollen]

PD baron is cool

[vale oxide]

I don't like it but there's not really a better solution

[fast anchor]

it’s silly

[hot orchid]

I'm actually a really big fan of PD Baron on the right script

You just also want Pit-Hag so it's bluffable

Also

Since when was DA and Riot a jinx?

[spiral pollen]

forever!

[hot orchid]

I guess I haven't checked since like, Riot got released and Ben said "this was so much work, I'm not gonna bother with minions"

[cursive cobalt]

Hmmmm

Most jinxes just exist to correct mechanics

[spiral pollen]

kazali goon is a cool one I'd say

[cursive cobalt]

I don’t particularly like most of the jinxes that change the game dynamically 😅

[spiral pollen]

although im still not clear how it works

[cursive cobalt]

So idk

[cursive cobalt]

Goon is turned successfully

But the Kazali is immediately put to sleep afterwards

And the ST makes the remaining choices

[spiral pollen]

The goon becomes a minion?

[cursive cobalt]

Yes

[spiral pollen]

That's kind of odd

I'd say

[cursive cobalt]

It’s not an interrupt like the goon usually is

Certainly unintuitive

And it makes me question why the jinx even exists

[spiral pollen]

I imagined it flips the goon evil and then ST decides including the goon choice

[cursive cobalt]

Since it doesn’t really preserve the goon’s intent at all; it just adds a wonky clause afterwards

[spiral pollen]

then the ST is free to turn the goon into a minion if they choose

[cursive cobalt]

I believed this as well until someone proved me wrong

Also

Kazali Goon and Kazali Soldier just don’t seem like very fun interactions to me

Since you’re punishing the Kazali for what’s essentially just a random N1 gamble

It has the same vibe as a N1 poison snipe

Which is rarely fun to deal with

[cursive cobalt]

Out of all of them, maybe Lycanthrope + Gambler or Baron + Heretic

[tall raft]

It makes pg okay

And so in the right circumstance, I like them

[indigo osprey]

can anyone asks questions here?

It seems it is

oke

07/01: Teensyville is almost an entirely different game than standard games. Agree/disagree? Any (hot)takes?

[flat lintel]

Yes

[exotic bone]

agreed, especially when you don't use toymaker

not knowing your evil team, a mechanic that is imo central to social deduction games (the uninformed majority vs the informed minority) creates a significantly different playstyle

[severe raven]

I prefer Toymaker at 6 players and normal Teensyville at 5 players.

But Leviathan is better than either of them.

[sweet birch]

Hot take: Laissez un Faire is the only script where Leviathan isn't cringe

One could make an argument for Harold Holt

[tall raft]

Agree
Hot take: It's a better game

[vale oxide]

I agree. I don't think I have any hot takes, I like teensy but full games are better

[tall raft]

Disagree, the mechanic is often used but not central

Plenty of SD games don't use that

[flat lintel]

LUF LEVI!!!

[flat lintel]

1/13: Best 2023 BOTC related memory?

[indigo osprey]

When I won as legion, my very first game, when I officially declared my favorite self made custom script as finalized, some very cool plays by players in my games, when I won as scarlet woman-saint-imp, when the pit hag pithagged her new (formerly snake charmer) demon into klutz, ending the game, ... so many

[sage atlas]

Winning as good by claiming spy in f3

[sweet birch]

My first ever long-form text game, the amnesiac was given Wikipedia articles containing the names of the evil team

[sharp violet]

Winning in a 7p S&V as basically outed Cerenovus

[fast anchor]

Winning a 15-player game as the starting Imp in-person

[radiant idol]

Magician in play, talked to my (unknowingly) demon once, I was bluffing BH as cere the entire game, didn't know it was out of play. Made some BS pings. Carried my evil team to a great win.

[flat lintel]

For me, it's that one livetext game.

I think most people know about it

but like it was just too funny

[dense moat]

Messed up as Fearmonger on D2, only to clumsily claim Goblin. Then I just embraced the chaos and nommed a bunch of people as outed evil. Not only that, but I got picked after the Boomdandy died. It felt amazing and I’ve never had a better time claiming Goblin

[rose vault]

I was the Cult Leader with 9 players, and was continually told that I was good every day. I convinced the entire town to join my cult... and nothing happened. It turned out that I was the drunk sitting between the two evil players.

[cursive cobalt]

You have to wonder if the ST chose you to be the Drunk for that specific reason

[rose vault]

I was framed as the poisoner, and evil won.

[spiral pollen]

probably wise

[copper quail]

Was juggler in a Vortox game juggled 4 players (because I was covering the sage by juggling them as Oracle as well)
Was protected by the monk n2 and got a 4 confirming:
The lunatic (who thought I was legion 🙈 )
Chef
Sage
And Monk
Good won but for a long time everyone was doubting my info when I was so sure it was true 🥲

[flat lintel]

1/14: What characters should be jinxed?

I think Zombuul and Pithag should have a jinx to clear up the confusion on the dead misregistrating

[shrewd cloud]

I guess it doesn’t necessarily need to be jinxed as the two aren’t broken together but screw Vortox/PG

Going to house rule that until the day I die

[sage atlas]

pg/cannibal should be jinxed. evil not being able to learn their evil team after the poppy grower is executed is just unfair

either that or poppy grower should be reworded

[shrewd cloud]

Agreed

There are so many ways for evil to accidentally disrupt a PG or for PG to continue affecting evil after death, it’s so unfair

PG is easily one of the strongest TF in the game already, it doesn’t need to have jank that screws over evil because of stuff like Cannibal or Vortox

[sage atlas]

instead of "if you die" it should maybe be something like "if you lose this ability"

"You are sober & healthy. Minions & Demons do not know each other. If you lose this ability, they learn who each other are that night."

[cursive cobalt]

Vizier Poli

Hmmm

Vigor MM

As well

[sweet birch]

Balloonist Vortox

[fast anchor]

Pit-Hag and Goon/Cult Leader should have the Politician jinx (The Pit-Hag cannot create an evil Goon/Cult Leader)

Vizier and Politician should have a jinx (“The Politician might register as evil to the Vizier”)

[rose vault]

Thoughts on Zombuul Gangster?

If the Zombuul is drunk, then they register as alive for the gangster's ability. So if they're drunk, and the gangster's other alive neighbor tries to shoot the player who they think is alive after the Zombuul, the game ends and good wins.

[flat lintel]

I’m just against any jinxes with travelers

[fast anchor]

i think that's a fine interaction tbh, it's the same deal with zombuul drunkenness + announcing the votes required to execute

and that's not jinxed/ruled against in normal BMR

[rose vault]

Wait, Zombuul being drunk can change the votes required?

[fast anchor]

it doesn't register as dead anymore, and so counts for things like the vote tally

e.g. normally, 4 players + registering-as-dead zombuul requires 2 votes to put someone on the block

if the registering-as-dead zombuul is drunk, and thus no longer registering as dead, it would then take 3 votes to put someone on the block (since 5/2 rounded up is 3)

registering-as-dead zombuuls being drunk is so rare that this barely ever happens (only with, like, minstrel) but it's a fun edge case

[flat lintel]

1/16: Thoughts on deviant?

Personally, I don't think I ever want to be deviant again! The time I was deviant people intentionally tried to stop laughing, instead of letting it go which made it unfun for me because that just sorta destroys the fun of it. You make jokes, get a few laughs and have fun. Not that you make jokes to brick walls and you watch as they try their best to make sure for no reason you are not funny.

[spiral pollen]

I've played one game with a deviant and I found everything they said funny

[sweet birch]

I like Deviant as an option for people who don't know what's going on and want to participate anyway

[fast anchor]

I like Deviant and think that more STs should read the almanac entry for it

specifically this bit:

The Deviant is not a serious character, and it is meant to encourage laughter, lightheartedness, and fun, so adjust the Deviant rules to your players’ needs and talents.

[rose vault]

I ran the Deviant as a co-ST one time, and it ended poorly.

The first day, the group voted to exile the Deviant "to see if he was funny". We let him live.
The second day, the same thing pretty much happened.
The third day, we decided that if the town really wanted it, we'd kill them. The nominator and the deviant then held a politically incorrect quotes competition, and it ended up as a stalemate, so we ended up killing the deviant anyways. The game's mood kind of died afterwards.

[flat lintel]

Yeah that's what I don't like about being the role. It could be fun to the other players but it's just often unfun to Deviant

[severe raven]

Back to 1/14: Zombuul also needs jinxes with Barber and Hatter. And also Scarlet Woman -- I think the best approach is the 4-life solution, but wording implies the SW becomes a living Zombuul while the first Zombuul is still fake-dead. The 3-life solution (Zombuul dies for real if SW becomes the Demon) is interesting too, and potentially more likely to trigger.

[fast anchor]

I personally like the Zombuul-SW interaction being slightly cursed and don’t think the two should be on scripts together to begin with unless you have that in mind? It feels overly harsh on the good team to run a 4-life solution (kinda like how Lleech SW is a rough interaction for good)

Interested to see how you’d write a zombuul/barber or zombuul/hatter jinx though

[cursive cobalt]

“If a Zombuul is registering as dead, their character cannot be changed.”

[rose vault]

This reminds me of something that actually happened during a BMR game:
The team basically figured out who the demon was on Day 2. They executed... protected by DA.
Day 3: they killed the demon. It was a Zombuul.
Day 4: The DA stepped in again.
Day 5: The game finally ended.
...the demon doesn't play BotC anymore.

[cursive cobalt]

DA can’t protect dead players

How did they extend the game that way

[rose vault]

...I don't think the ST realized at the time.

[cursive cobalt]

Bruh

[rose vault]

We've come to hate BMR. Maybe we just suck at Storytelling / utilizing our roles in it.

Most of the STs in my group like giving out a ton of information, like in S&V.

[cursive cobalt]

Let me guess

Sailor and Pacifist are your group’s two least favorite roles

[rose vault]

Nah, Tinker and Snitch.

[cursive cobalt]

I was mostly referring to on BmR

But fair

[rose vault]

And Lleech. "How do you expect the group to find the poisoned player?" -- one of our better STs.

Oh.

[cursive cobalt]

Tinker is like

Irritating to play

[rose vault]

"Hello yes I'm here"

[cursive cobalt]

It exists to give BMR more death manipulation

It’s like the BMR’s flavor of Recluse

Every base script has an outsider that produces misinfo in an unconventional way

Recluse for TB, Tinker for BMR, Barber for SnV

[fast anchor]

18/1: What are your scriptbuilding pet peeves? That is to say, things on custom scripts that get you annoyed the moment you see them?

[cursive cobalt]

I have a couple

• Atheist Legion
• Pure Augmentation (basically, any situation where a character on a script lacks its own identity outside of allowing another character to function better)
• Sentinel scripts
• Obvious intent breaks (“Golem is on this script so that Psychopaths have to hide”; “Pacifist is on this script to give Lleech a chance of survival if the host is exed early”)
• Gossip existing for seemingly no reason (why does this always happen)
• Recluse paired with Flowergirl or TC
• Recluse on any script where the majority of information good gains is ST-facilitated
• PH Drunk/Mario
• Vortox on low info scripts where it only serves to disable a handful of roles and that’s it
• Vortox on scripts where all the info is highly specific
• Overreliance on padding roles (results in games that are very rigid in setup-dependency)
• Heretic in scripts where good has 0 ways to confirm it in any way
• Goblin on scripts where good has 0 ways to confirm it in any way
• OG Vortox

[spiral pollen]

There simply aren't enough outsider manipulation characters to avoid sentinel I'm afraid

It's worse when godfather is shoved in as the outsider manipulating character when it doesn't fit

[cursive cobalt]

Putting Sentinel on top of existing outsider manipulation deserves a special mention

That’s just 😐

[fast anchor]

When I was building my first custom I got the suggestion to put Godfather and Sentinel on it and, like... no?? Why do you need both

[spiral pollen]

I agree with most of that temporary

[indigo osprey]

Temporary doesn't like Tb it seems

("Recluse on any script where the majority of information good gains is ST-facilitated")

[cursive cobalt]

I indeed don't particularly like how the ST basically determines how much of town's info is bad from setup using misregistration

in TB you only have the top 3 that suffer from this issue though

(and maybe Chef)

In other scripts, where you have stuff like Balloonist and Savant

That's when it becomes more irritating to deal with

[indigo osprey]

both fortune teller and empath interact with ST; but I suppose in your framework tey don't count as st-facilitated because the ST doesn't choose the targets? (Smaen with ravenkeeper?)

[cursive cobalt]

Yeah, I would consider FT and Empath to not be ST-facilitated

Because the ST doesnt directly choose what info to show them

[indigo osprey]

except they ping on a recluse, but I see the criteria

[cursive cobalt]

If they ping on the Recluse

[indigo osprey]

so flowergirl and recluse is technically fine, according to this criteria

but you dislike flowergirl/recluse for a different criteria

[cursive cobalt]

that means that they specifically either chose to check the Recluse

or they happened to neighbor the Recluse (someone who they can still kill to get more info)

[cursive cobalt]

I dont like Flower Recluse because it just incentivises the Recluse to never vote

Its different

same with TC

[indigo osprey]

I mean

an outsider that can't really vote or nominate is exactly the sort of disadvantage a townsfolk can bring to the table

is that necessarily bad?

[cursive cobalt]

I just don't find it fun

[fast anchor]

it's outsidery, but telling someone "it is optimal to (basically) not play the game" isn't very fun

[severe raven]

(you probably don't like that outsider tho)

As for ... I've come around to it, and the soon-to-be-released version of my flagship script Thinking Outside the Box will have it, because:

• If people seriously think or are seriously bluffing thinking it's an Atheist game, there's got to be a good number (and at LEAST three) players who are 100% locked on the Atheist world.
• In that case, if it comes down to F3 and Legion is bluffing Atheist, the Legions that are "convinced it's Atheist" can vote to execute the Storyteller and get 3+ votes.
• Then the good team nominates the player they think is Legion and try to get strictly fewer votes.

If the ST vote gets, say, 5 votes from all suspected Legions, and the player vote gets, say, 3, then either (1) it's Atheist and the ST is executed, or (2) it's Legion, the ST vote secretly doesn't count, and the player is executed & dies.

I did have to remove and from the earlier version of said script. I'll probably also make a second version with only and not (the "No Legion version").

[indigo osprey]

Again: if one non-legion also considers it has an atheist game, the game just ends then and there with an good loss

and given that it's very, vry, very difficult for a player to distinguish atheist from legion, this is considerd a basically impossible task

[severe raven]

I don't like:

• Organ Grinder + Flowergirl
• Balloonist + Poisoner/Vortox (Recluse is as good/bad IMO as Recluse + Investigator)
• Amnesiac + Vortox (unless house ruled)
• Cult Leader
• Professor + Philosopher/Cannibal (Pixie is ok if the ST doesn't mess it up)
• Drunk + Sentinel unless Sentinel is the only outsider mod
• Lleech without another reason for execution survival (preferably not only Sailor/Fool)

[obtuse shell]

I actually like OG Flowergirl, I think it's interesting

Lleech I think is fine without other execution survival 🤷‍♂️
(though it's better with a pit hag/barber/hatter that can provide a reason the Lleech might change)

nothing but hatred for the hundreds of poisoner balloonist scripts though

[fast anchor]

100% agree with Balloonist + Poisoner/Vortox; it astounds me that most people don't clock how horrid an interaction it is

i'm a decent fan of outed evil Lleech and Cult Leader tho, they're both fun times

same with Sentinel (Extension Cord is the big example but I can think of a couple scripts that thrive with a Sentinel that wouldn't have outsider mod otherwise)

[obtuse shell]

I love Cult Leader but that's more personal opinoon than anything

[indigo osprey]

I dislike people who play cult leader like a goon/politician

which unfortunately is encouraged by the cult leader's design

[radiant idol]

Can you explain?

[indigo osprey]

People who never call for a cult, and just wait/hope to get turned evil and then get themselves killed asap

[obtuse shell]

the worst people are the ones who absolutely refuse to join any cult for any reason

[fast anchor]

speaking of cult leader: it is astounding that Pit-Hag and Cult Leader do not have the PH Politician jinx

same with Goon actually?

[sweet birch]

Honestly idk if those jinxes are really necessary?

Like it's just a bad idea anyway for the PH

[indigo osprey]

how do you mean? it's an amazing idea for a PH

they know who the demon is they can create an instante win

[sweet birch]

Oh right they turn themselves

Anti-jinx for self then

Or, alternatively, fun jinx I came up with

It's called "banning people who would do that from your BOTC group"

Because that's just lame

[indigo osprey]

you can't fault people from playing optimally, I think

I prefer a jinx (well, bootleg)

the mechanics of the game shouldn't allow for it

[sweet birch]

The first rule of the game is to have fun, though

Turning yourself into goon and then flipping to win isn't fun for anybody

Good team is deprived the chance to solve for themselves

[indigo osprey]

sure, but people shouldn't decide what's fun on behalf of other people and (some) people enjoy rules lawyering and being technically correct to edge out a win

[sweet birch]

Evil team doesn't get to play, practically

[indigo osprey]

I would be one of those players, but I would also be the first one to just say 'this should be bootlegged/jinxed before someone can even do it'

[sweet birch]

If someone did that in my group more than once I wouldn't want to play with them again

[indigo osprey]

I mean

If a player discovers that loophole before the ST who presented the script, that's on the ST, not them

although bootlegging it before hand is better

you can't fault someone for doing it once when the opportunity presents itself

everyone has a laugh, compliment the person for discovering it and then you bootleg it for all eternity

[cursive cobalt]

1/19: What are some roles you find to be incredibly underrated?

(Late into the day, I know)

[shrewd cloud]

If I had to pick one, I guess General? At least in my group, General feels very slept on which is sad

[sage atlas]

mastermind is pretty fun, its a fun risk to execute the demon d1 and see if there is any reason to execute a good player

[obtuse shell]

Juggler
to a lesser extent, Baron

[severe raven]

Zombuul!

[vale oxide]

I don't think anyone thinks it's weak, but many people don't understand the full potential of the Gossip

[fast anchor]

[flat lintel]

[minor pier]

Baron is always underrated, especially in groups that are accustomed to base 2 outsider -sized games - having more than half the circle be outsiders or evil is devastating to good. General is another good one yeah. And I love Zombuul ; but it really needs dedicated scripts, so I can't fault people for not liking it.
Personally, I'd say Courtier. It's an all-or-nothing role that can have a devastating impact, especially if you go for non-conventional targets.

[fast anchor]

I think courtier’s very highly rated

I agree most people could stand to be more creative with it (drunk a minion?) but it’s generally agreed that it’s really strong

[minor pier]

Drunk a minion, creative ? I'd drunk an Outsider with it, like drunk the Saint and execute them. I'd even drunk a TF without them knowing if it allowed to verify they really were that TF and not a bluff, then execute me to undrunk them, proving us both in the process.

It's a powerful effect that is too often seen as 'try to snipe the right demon' and nothing else.

[cursive cobalt]

Drunking the DA is a classic

[fast anchor]

and yet nobody does it

[minor pier]

"How to make BMR games not take 10 days" in a nutshell

[fast anchor]

it's always "oh no i hit the po when someone got shabrezzed the next day 😢" like come on, drunk the mastermind for a change

also agree with drunking the d/a as a VERY good play

[cursive cobalt]

I actually see it done pretty often

It turns every survived execution test from semiconfirmation to full confirmation

(At least to you I suppose)

Alternatively

If you know your ST is super evil biased

Drunk the Pacifist

[sharp violet]

1/22: Opinions on the top 4 roles from TB in other scripts?

[minor pier]

Investigator is a hit or miss, either very powerful or useless with outed evil. Washerwoman is strong, but can fit in most script. Librarian is very useful almost anywhere, outsiders are almost always good to know & confirm. Chef is generally strong without misregistration, and has a few nice interactions with things like Marionette without being completely busted.
Overall, Investigator is the only one I'd be loath to add blindly to a script.

[cursive cobalt]

Washerwoman: nothing wrong about it, but I find it’s the most janky role within its family (Steward, Pixie, and Grandmother execute its concept better in different ways). I don’t see it often due to this, but it’s inoffensive enough.
Librarian: either fills a very interesting and unique niche of finding hidden outsiders or acts as a sidegrade to Washerwoman; it’s hit or miss depending on what outsiders it’s paired with. In the case of the former, the ambiguity being present plays a large part in increasing its appeal (rather acting as a rather small roadblock as it usually does), which I find is nice.
Investigator: definitely overrated in terms of how much power it gives good specifically. However, it puts immediate pressure on evil in a way that few roles can, and can bust games wide open depending on minion composition. I would say it’s fine for script building; you just need to keep in mind the minions you pair it with.
Chef: the OG triangulation role. Pairs very well with Marionette, debatably well with Legion (YMMV), and fits on pretty much any script where town is given other tools to identify evil with. Is overall the most consistently strong top 4, but it’s balanced out by it being the most bluffable and most team-orientated.

[indigo osprey]

I don't particular like washerwoman outside it's home script, because it gives two way confirmation unless there is a spy or something. Which is pretty strong. I like librarian. It's my favorite of the bunch that I use on a lot of scripts. Sure: it's two way confirmation, but two way confirmation of (say) damsel, heretic, drunk, plague doctor or whatever is fun. Investigator is similar like washerwoman. I guess it's easily bluffable. But not if someone yells 'I am investigator' on day 1 immediately.
Chef is imo the best of the bunch. Works on basically every script, always gives solid information and is always useful without being oppressive. For script building purposes: definitely the best one.

[cursive cobalt]

Washerwoman is just a poor man’s Grandmother

The reason I don’t like it is because it’s ability feels dummy redundant

Other roles do what it does in a more elegant way

[indigo osprey]

grandmother is even stronger with almost no downside on non-bmr scripts

at least washerwoman is 2 way private confirmation, grandmother is 2 way public confirmation (or: can be) on scripts without additional deaths

[cursive cobalt]

Chef will never not work on a script, but it definitely works a lot better on some scripts than others

[indigo osprey]

I mean

chef would even work on bmr

[cursive cobalt]

I guess?

BMR doesn’t have too many evil pings though

Chef is most interesting when put on scripts where evil can be identified directly

Since that’s when it’s information is most actionable

[indigo osprey]

are you sure you want to state that as undisputed fact?

[cursive cobalt]

Nothing I state is a fact

It’s just my own opinion

[indigo osprey]

okz

[sweet birch]

Generally speaking WW can be subbed for Grandma/Pixie and Invest can be subbed for Noble

Librarian is cool when it's confirming a drunk/mutant/damsel but otherwise nah

Chef is cool but I hate it in its home script because recluse/poisoner

[cursive cobalt]

Noble and Invest are debatable
They accomplish pretty distinct things

And fit on different scripts

You can’t replace one with the other as easily as you could say, Washerwoman and Steward

[cursive cobalt]

Hot take
I don’t like poisoner on TB

[sweet birch]

I don't either

It's the reason I hate TB, even

Literally the whole thing is built on confirmation chains but you have zero certainty of any of them, except for the virgin

[cursive cobalt]

Unironically

I find that one of the best ways to play TB

Is sometimes just to discard information entirely

[flat lintel]

how dare you have hot takes!

i like all the top 4s in tb. I don't like how it's an auto execution to be a top 4

[indigo osprey]

Let's play TB and ignore everyone's info roles

goodluck!

[flat lintel]

but sometimes the top 4s create some of the best experiences

like baiting the demon to kill you instead of the ft you pinged on is great

on other scripts

complete dodo!

no im kidding hehe

investigator is a bit funny

like it sucks with experimental minions cuz they cannot shut up

like seriously, holy moley

they're loud

but if you find the right minions

like bmr minions

snv and mario

sure

washerwoman is underrated

people always want pixie because of the double claim stuff

[indigo osprey]

pixie is generally more fun and has more to do than washerwoman

[flat lintel]

more love for the washerwoman pls

[indigo osprey]

washerwoman is just an insane strong character

it's basically grandmother without the kill risk

[flat lintel]

i mean being a role is only as fun as you make it 🤷‍♂️ (most of the time)

[indigo osprey]

I mean

[flat lintel]

washerwoman can be fun

[indigo osprey]

let me rephrase

pixie does more on a script

[flat lintel]

not disagreeing with you

[indigo osprey]

pixie gives a reason not to be too suspicious of double claims, it can generate the option of twice as much information, it gives confirmation that can't be immediately outed

[flat lintel]

i just don't get why pixie needs to be on some scripts esp. when it's the only madness source

[indigo osprey]

washerwoman is strong, but pixie does more

[flat lintel]

feels like just adding pixie for misinfo rather than for info

[indigo osprey]

well

[flat lintel]

ye

anyways

[indigo osprey]

pixie can be a lot of info as well

[flat lintel]

librarian

[indigo osprey]

it's confirmation that comes later

[flat lintel]

coolio beans for it's outsider confirmation

confirming the damsel or a heretic is a fan favorite

as you literally cannot be outting that info

add in the for heretic for fun

and finally

chef

chef + legion is fire

like getting the chef 4 is crazy

also chef works best on tb due to misregistration

but ig it can work on snv due to demon drunk scale

we just need more misreg roles

[sweet birch]

Yeah but at that point it's basically just mafia with extra steps

[tall raft]

1/23 - What is a role you refuse to play with for any reason

[shrewd cloud]

I like Alchemist but scripts with Alchemist and Pit-Hag are certainly the scripts of all time

Alchemist Pit-Hag is so broken to the point of not being fun for anyone

So not necessarily a single character but a particular interaction with a character

My least favorite characters as a whole though are probably Poppygrower and Heretic

[flat lintel]

the new kazoo role for a bit

[severe raven]

Argh, that's harsh.

I think until the Alchemist stuff gets properly fleshed out, .

I can't say any base 3 roles... and none of the other ones look so, like, irredeemable...

[flat lintel]

courtier

evil twin

[fast anchor]

I'm not sure there's any character I'd never play with: I think that every published character so far can shine on the right script

[severe raven]

is close, but I'm fine if someone ELSE is the charmer or if I become snake charmed.
exists, but it's on Trouble Brewing. I would not want to put it on a custom without a very important reason.

[fast anchor]

is "it's very funny" a good enough reason to put the butler on a script 🥹

[sage atlas]

moonchild on bmr

[cursive cobalt]

Legion (I hate being good in Legion games with a passion)

Also

Pacifist when I know the ST is open to running it poorly

I think that’s it

I’d play any other game

I might not like the script that much, but I’m not going to never play a script if other roles existed on it

(Hmm, Amne when it’s run bad is a contender actually)

CL, Golem, and Poli suck, but it doesn’t make me instantly turn down a script

Heretic is awful when put on a script that doesn’t fit it

I’m open to Heretic scripts, but I’m not the biggest fan of them