#Server Rules on Reracking otherwise it just feel like it is a popularity Contest

357 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

lucid vault
#

The Server Rules for Reracking is 20 minutes from the Start of the game.

From my understanding, it is from the start of night 1.

My reason for that understanding is because there was a time where the game ended on day 2 because the Demon killed themselves and every one allowed for it to re racked. If it starts from Grim Setup, that is no way it is 20 minutes. All the players and ST afterwards claim that is it fine and it is 20minutes cause it starts from Night 1.

Today my Lita Monsta game ended on day 1 cause the Goblin holding the Lita Monsta was executed but either way it would have end on Day 1. I was not allowed to reracked because apparently it starts from Grim Setup and not night one. There was a player who was 2 minute late to response as well.

Also how do we judge people that sign up but not responding to DMs? It is not fair to put that on the ST.

If people choose to Enforce the Rules depending on the Current and Next ST, isn't it just a Popularity Contest instead?

Can we at least change the Rules to Day 1 reracked to be always allowed. or at least enforced that the timer only starts at the start of N1?

Based on the Image, My night 1 ended on 4:57pm. Based on the ending grim, the game ended at 5:06pm on my time. (Calculated to be 16 minutes at most so rounded off at most 20minutes)

Can we enforce the rules or at least decide a when is considered the Start? So it does not feel like a Popularity Contest.

image.png
#

This the ending time.

image.png
#

Right now, to me it feel likes a popularity contest.

vague sequoia
#

Our current guideline is that setups shouldn't take more than a few minutes, and following that, 20 minutes is plenty of time for a day/night cycle, if not two.

I understand from the game you ran, you were late to your slot by more than twice the usual time we expect you to be ready and had already been skipped but people let you run it anyway, then you took significantly longer than our guidelines recommend for setup, meaning players had been waiting for significantly longer than is ideal. After the game, you were quite rude to several people who tried to explain our current guidelines to you and you scheduled a game that also went against server rules. I explained our policies and guidelines that come from this forum and future steps you could take. You've requested clarification, which I'm happy for a discussion to be about, but the fact that almost all of your post is about that game makes me believe that your post is to air grievances, which this is not an appropriate forum for.

That said, it is worth a discussion about how quickly we expect each phase of setup to go.

lucid vault
#

There was another ST before me. The guidelines is 5minutes to be on time. They waited for 8 minutes is not twice as long. I was only tagged at 4:18pm on mine and I did came at 4:26pm.

#

I want to know when does the Timer Starts for Grim Setup. I did apologize for being late.

#

This is the link to the previous game i mentioned that reracked on Day 2 even though it is more than 20minutes.

Time of the poll:
#pickup-game-chat message

Time of Rerack:
#pickup-game-chat message

Amount of ST in the Queue that time:
#pickup-game-chat message

vague sequoia
#

When do you think it should start?

lucid vault
#

The start of N1. Not Grim Setup.

vague sequoia
#

I'm happy to hear other thoughts on this

#

I think if we'd go down that path we'd need to set a cap on the setup time as well. The purpose of all of this is to prevent players from having to wake too long and keep games moving

lucid vault
#

Or Maybe just allowed games that end on day 1 to be automatically reracked. Cause Waiting for like more than 40hours for your turn to ST just for the game to end day 1 really feels terrible.

#

Cause there is times where ST is off cooldown but the queue is so long that has to wait like 8hours

#

and then if your game end day 1 and not allowed, it just feel so bad and pointless for whatever reasons

vague sequoia
#

That's what the 20 minute timer is there for. If someone feels they can't run a day/night cycle in 20 minutes, even with setup, I'd suggest they run a slightly easier script, like TB or another base 3

lucid vault
#

Also I thought the timer only starts with night 1 based on the previous experience I seen based on the links.

Can we just have the timer to be finalise to either grim setup or night 1? Don't have different standards based on the current and next ST.

vague sequoia
#

I agree that we should have standardised timing. I would suggest that characters should go out no later than 10 minutes after the previous game ended, meaning STs have at least 5 minutes, but STs who are good to go have a slight boost to setup time. From the moment characters go out, 20 minutes.

acoustic jackal
# vague sequoia I agree that we should have standardised timing. I would suggest that characters...

The easiest consistent metric that could be applied, would be using the ST queue as the start of the timer. We could do a 30-35 minute time from being pinged via the bot. This allows for 5-10 minutes for the ST to show up and decide a script and solidify players. 5ish minutes for grim set up. and 20 minutes to run N1 and any further day.

This would be a way to ensure there's no ambiguity over when the "timer" starts or ends, and enforces current expectations that you should start promptly from when you are next on the ST queue. If you are having enough Day 1 / Day 2 reracks that this rule is a problem, it might be worth looking at why there are so many day 1 reracks. Given evil is able to coordinate and good isn't, this could be a balance problem.

#

Based on the above example Alex mentioned this would mean (using my timezone for timestamps)
8:18 GMT - Alex was pinged

Under the suggested rerack rules / schedule, they would have until 8:53 to rerack but remove any possibility these decisions could be biased by popularity or the opposite.

I'm open to hearing feedback on this and making the 30-35 minutes more if that feels unreasonable, but I would like a breakdown of the expectations in terms of timeline giving people time to

  1. Arrive
  2. Poll for a script
  3. Set up a grim
  4. Play the game

Note - The previous game should not impact the timeline, nor should the complexity of the script. I don't personally feel that deciding which custom script should be accommodated into the timeline, this should not take a significant amount of time and can be discussed while the polling is happening simultaneously.

small cometBOT
#
Above time (08:18 GMT) in your local time ·
acoustic jackal
#

My personal opinion is that if someone is efficient in setting up the game, then this benefits everyone. If it takes 30 minutes to get the game set up, you should not get more time to run the game. Everyone's time is of equal value in that sense.

vapid gorge
#

I support the bot metric! I’ve been asked by STs multiple times since this new 20 minute rule was made whether it’s ok to rerack and I find that looking back in the chat after the fact, it’s hard to find a timestamp for when the game has actually started because everyone structures their games slightly differently. Going off the bot would fix that. As well as my previous misconception that the timer started at day 1 and people appealing to my non-bot emotions with “well, it’s only been like 25 minutes, it’s basically only been 20 minutes!”

#

I get where it feels like a popularity contest when it isn’t consistent. Keeping the queue going is like timekeeping while Storytelling, you need to give people less time than they want for the health of the game but you worry that they’ll think less of you for calling time when you should, so you can sometimes be convinced to give extra time even though it’s dragging out the game. The game in this case being the queue. And some STs are more convincing to players about letting them rerack late than others, and you’re right that that’s not fair.

zealous idol
#

I think most of the time when my setup has been slow, it's been because players arrive, leave, or become unresponsive (e.g., go afk).

#

It's definitely frustrating to go "hey! everyone! take your damned seats!" for awhile and then have the game end on d1 anyway

#

ditto for long night 1; sometimes there's unusually complicated stuff going on (engineer/SC nonsense requiring messaging lots of players, multiple savants, etc) but more often one or two players is unresponsive

unique hinge
#

It sounds like storytellers might benefit from tips on how to gather a group for a game. (I can hear how condescending this sounds through text and I genuinely mean this as authentically as possible - ) Gathering your players for a game of Clocktower and respecting everyone’s time in the process is part of being an excellent Storyteller. If players are normalizing arriving late, going afk, or abruptly changing their mind and leaving during setup, it’s the Storyteller’s responsibility to establish norms that by x time, all players who are in their seats (in this case, in VC without an !) are playing, and everyone who is not playing must have a ! in their name. That’s the cutoff, and once it’s set, you do not make exceptions. A game doesn’t start from the opening of D1, it starts with gathering players, and learning to time that efficiently is part of learning to improve your timing as an ST. Shifting server norms around how games start would significantly help alleviate some of the problems folks are describing here, imo

As for running games that have unusually long night 1s… STs should be running scripts that they are comfortable running (e.g. don’t run unusually complicated customs if you cannot run them in a reasonable timeframe)

zealous idol
#

Deciding not to make exceptions doesn't cause players to take their seats in the grimoire tool, nor does it force players who have decided to leave to play. Similarly, however confident I am in running a script, players can choose to invoke more complicated interactions and not respond promptly to messages. For instance, I don't think it's fair to suggest I'm not competent to run any script including Poisoner because I cannot run the night quickly when the Poisoner does not respond.

#

Of course, the advice to try and make gathering players, selecting a script and starting the game as expedient as possible is good advice -- but sometimes it genuinely isn't under the ST's direct control.

#

(I don't know that should extend the ST's licence to run a game that lasts more than 20 minutes. It's tough to create a rule for any hard cutoff that won't feel unfair sometimes. It's why it's nice to deal with such things on an informal "what feels fair" basis, except where that informality itself causes people to feel like the OP to feel like "popular" STs get more leeway.)

vapid gorge
low flare
#

you can definitely enforce rules around a time limit between the player cap being reached and roles going out. the only time an ST needs to change the settup is if the player number changes and there's been plenty of games where we've sat for upwards of 40 mins to an hour waiting for roles to even be sent out

vapid gorge
#

some people (and I’ve been guilty of this before) definitely tweak the setup a lot and feel like they have to have all the reminder tokens/info just right sending characters out

lucid vault
#

For today, I ran a lita monsta game. I actually went through the n1 pretty fast, it took 2mins for the goblin the last minion to respond whether they taking or not while I was doing the other roles. So if no immediate respond, I decide who takes instead? Instead of the suppose of asking all minions once? Or should I just cut the day to 4min because some people didn't respond or reduce it per minute for each minute they took to respond? For like 11 players.

lucid vault
#

Another case I seen: Other more popular ST want to rerack, it is more than 20minutes,the other ST behind just allows it even though it ends on day 2 and is more than 20minutes.

When I want to rerack and some players may have because it ends on day 1. The other ST behind AND some Spectators chips in to say not allow cause it was considered 30mins from start of the grim.

#

Which makes it feels like popularity contest as well.

low flare
#

have you talked to the people who you feel are doing this directly? they may not realise they are doing it and will probably be receptive to talking about it. I doubt anyone here would do something like that on purpose and if they reply negatively to you voicing your concern then they are clearly in the wrong at that point.

#

@lucid vault

ashen timber
vague sequoia
#

Completely agree with the issue that's being highlighted, to be clear 🙂

ashen timber
#

Relatedly, I also completely agree with Alex here - it's absolutely a popularity contest when things come close to the rules. I've had games where people won't .next late storytellers even after 15+ minutes with timers (the specific player I'm thinking of is Bees ST, who is certainly popular)

#

I'm not saying it's a big problem or happens a lot but it's certainly the case that players will ignore rules sometimes to get something they want - and I don't think setting strict time cutoffs or bot timing will be solving it

zealous idol
#

On the timer thing, the live game rules say that players must .next at five minutes past ping, but the Edd pin in #st-queue says it's against the rules not to wait at least 10 minutes. The LGL are more recent though it feel quite restrictive especially in cases where you have several .next/.leave in quick succession, which can happen -- even though I do agree that sometimes intergame time can get quite long.

fierce jolt
#

I think STs should come within the 5 minutes. Immediately run a poll, close it in 2 minutes. Have 1 minute for custom suggestions. 2 minute poll for custom, then rack roles in 5 minutes. I feel a lot of STs lately take 30-45 minutes to do this part, and when that happens I always decline a rerack because it’s exhausting spending that much time waiting for a day 1 rerack, and I’d rather move on. It’s nothing to do with popularity, but rather a feeling of wasting time

ashen timber
fierce jolt
#

Ofc it will. Clear guidelines help ambiguity and people feeling unfairly treated

#

I also advocate if a player does not reply to DMs, to make a decision for them where appropriate or not let them act. I do however believe players are less likely to afk as much, if the game doesn’t take 40 minutes to start. If you come on, sit down, get role and dm within 5 minutes, you’re likely to be responsive

low flare
#

players are also less likely to afk if they know their action will be taken for them in the event of their absence

#

or at least to send their action before they go afk

fierce jolt
#

Agreed. I sometimes know I wanna pre and get a drink, and presend my night action, which I’ve been literally screamed at by an ST not to do as it confuses them. And I think that’s on the ST, to be able to coordinate and handle, to allow for players to presend their picks

low flare
#

yea if players waited to see their tokens and were allowed to always pre send then we would have no issue with that

fierce jolt
#

I very much support Beams “30 minutes all inclusive” as an expectation for poll, roles, night 1 and day 1, and and acceptable time to rerack should the game end within that period.

low flare
#

and if STs were always quick at sending out roles then players wouldnt go afk before role sare sent out as often

zealous idol
#

There are still edge cases but they're rare (e.g., if a player NWM picks you, Cerenovuses you, or your character changes, are your choices still going to be the same?). I certainly don't mind when players pre-send their picks and I'll accept them as long as there's nothing that wakes them earlier in the night than their choice.

low flare
#

well thats like

#

if you want/need to go afk that's a risk you run but it only affects you

fierce jolt
low flare
#

at least that isnt affecting the entire game

fierce jolt
#

That’s a choice you make, knowing what’s on the grim

low flare
#

yea what charlezy is saying

#

the problem comes when 12 people are waiting on one person

#

I wouldn't mind tanking an L occasionally if I am choosing to go afk for myself

#

but semi regularly having to wait upwards of an hour for night 1 and sometimes every night being long is not fair for entire lobbies of players and is a far larger problem

zealous idol
#

In the extreme case players making nonsensical choices can harm the game for everyone. e.g., you choose to Witch-curse yourself but are Barber-swapped into being the demon, so now your choice is to kill yourself and end the game. But totally agree that those are exceptional.

low flare
#

yea that's extremely rare but then you can choose not to nominate

#

just for that example

#

also wait

#

that would remove the witch curse

fierce jolt
low flare
#

but anyway I understand the principle

zealous idol
#

no, but your choice as demon was yourself so you die immediately

low flare
#

well the ST would know

#

if you pre sent that

#

that you were the witch at the time

#

and yea then the demon is afk

#

but that's a rare case

fierce jolt
#

I think arguing extreme cases, isn’t a good way to form logical and sound solutions for common problems.

low flare
#

yea nothing is ever full proof

zealous idol
#

I think arguing outlier cases matters mainly when one is proposing that a rule be strictly enforced

#

a flexible rule need not handle outliers; a strict rule must

low flare
#

well all we are saying is STs shouldn't be able to forbid people from pre sending

#

in this case

#

that isn't exactly a restricting thing to ask

#

if people find it overwhelming, they can take a little extra time to sift through the messages

vapid gorge
#

I think you can have the sense as an ST of “a player picking themselves as Witch is normal but as Vortox is not, I’m gonna try to get a hold of this person to ask if they’re sure about that and if I have to choose for them due to inactivity I’ll not make the choice that instantly ends the game for a stupid reason”

low flare
#

that would still take less time than waiting on afk players

fierce jolt
#

Not as a rule, but as a known action that can be taken by the ST to prevent long setups, which is a big problems currently

low flare
#

doesn't need to be a server rule if people normalise it

#

and encourage those who find it hard to manage to develop ways to manage it

#

which wouldn't be hard

zealous idol
vapid gorge
low flare
#

yea no one is out here persecuting anyone but like

zealous idol
#

guidance/norms about how to make things run more smoothly is great as long as it's not a bludgeon

low flare
#

it's not fair on players especially those who are busier to have to wait such long times in games and it's certainly currently a problem

#

and it should be a goal of STs to reduce night length even if they don't start out with short nights

lucid vault
lucid vault
lucid vault
dawn trail
lucid vault
lucid vault
dawn trail
#

if it's the first night, yes

lucid vault
#

So when all the tokens are given out, you start putting everyone to sleep and that is night 1 also the start of the timer?

dawn trail
#

after tokens are given you, you prepare for the night, in which you place down relevant reminder tokens and such, then you put everyone to sleep and go to the night phase

lucid vault
dawn trail
#

players receive their characters, the Storyteller prepares for the first night, then starts the first night (as described in the rulebook)

lucid vault
#

I also pretty sure none of the players wait for like 30mins for night 1. Cause the ST behind and the Spectators said it was a total of 35 minutes at most. With a 2 minute MIA goblin

lucid vault
dawn trail
#

if you're referring to the timer for the ST queue, I think that's been answered, or being discussed, I'm not sure...I'm not on the live team so I don't want to give the wrong answer

lucid vault
#

As in the supposedly timer for 20 minutes. Cause I usually prepare everything before sending out character. So in that case that is the start of the 20minutes timer?

dawn trail
#

I doubt it, that doesn't seem very reasonable

lucid vault
#

So which part does not seem reasonable?

dawn trail
#

it wouldn't be reasonable if the timer started when the Storyteller starts waking up players, rather than when they are setting up the game

lucid vault
#

If anyone needs. I can also screenshot that my night actions started 4:41pm. The last night action ended at 4:48pm.

lucid vault
#

Also what about games with Cult Leader or Damsel on the scriot and players playing around with those?

zealous idol
#

It's up to ST how much time-wasting nonsense (and I say this in the most affable way possible; nonsense is fun sometimes) to tolerate generally. However, I think STs should prioritize fun for the players over how many days of game time they got to spend STing their favourite script.

#

i.e., I don't think we should be doing accounting of how many minutes were "deservedly spent" by the ST and how many "wasted" by players

lucid vault
#

Yea I agree.

fierce jolt
# lucid vault Also what about games with Cult Leader or Damsel on the scriot and players playi...

It doesn’t matter honestly. It’s on the ST to push noms. If players mess around with those, it’s on the ST to shorten the day accordingly. If you want scripts without day 1 reracks being likely and without these interactions, you should stick to base 3 scripts imo. There should be one timer for everyone, regardless of what scripts they play, period. People need to stop thinking they should get special treatment for running complex scripts. A good storyteller can keep complex scripts within a reasonable time for night and day aswell.

lucid vault
fierce jolt
#

You can yourself chip in. “In accordance with server rules, it’s been 20 minutes since you sent out roles and therefore you can’t run again”. Don’t assume it’s other players responsibility, you’ve been on the server long enough

#

If these situations you keep saying you experience, happens, then either let them know they can’t rerack per server rules, dm a mod if you don’t want the confrontation or make a ticket explaining breaking of server rules. Making an argument and saying “well I’m sure I’ve seen others get special treatment, why don’t I”, isn’t the correct solution to the problem you feel you’re experiencing

lucid vault
#

If your read, I get the opposite of Special treatments. I Never ask for any special treatment.

#

Also even if I chip in, the other ST behind will just say it is okay and rerack just happens anyways.

#

People will be like the next ST will have the final say.

fierce jolt
#

Then you tag a mod or make a ticket on the specific st and say rules weren’t followed

#

I’ve literally never ever seen that happen since the implementation of the new server rules of 20 minute timer. If you keep experiencing it, make tickets because that’s rule breaking

lucid vault
#

Yea because people would just say oh it starts from night 1 and not 20minutes. Based on the link I posted earlier above, that happen at least once.

And mod have to handle all 12 players including the next ST who all just say that they agree for rerack so it's fine?

#

Also I have never asked for any special treatment. I just asked for fairness cause right now, it feels like a popularity contest to me.

fierce jolt
#

there was some ambiguity about rules before from my side to, I thought it was start of first day. Now that you have proof of mods stating exact ruling, you can refer to that. And ofc a mod will come let 13 people know they’re breaking the rules.

#

You have a problem. There’s been stated a lot of solutions. It’s now on you to use those tools, and ask for mods to back you up if you find players aren’t following tbe rules.

lucid vault
vapid gorge
#

It feels you're taking the spotty enforcement of a previously vague rule very personally, and others are using your frustration to start a larger conversation about said vague rule and give mods a chance to clarify it. People have biases, but they aren't ostracizing you on purpose (and if they are, ticket them because that's not OK).
The solution isn't to break the rules to give you special treatment as well as others, it's to raise awareness of how others are getting special treatment so that it doesn't happen anymore and people follow the rules consistently from now on.

#

Basically what you and Charlzy have been saying for several messages

grand tendon
#

I feel like we should be lenient with the setup/N1 timing. There's a lot of random non-setup things that can affect it, like people not responding or someone dropping/being replaced.

What about starting the timer from the start of day 1, and only being 15 minutes? That would give time for d1 and probably day 2.

fierce jolt
grand tendon
#

Yeah, I've had those experiences too.

#

Maybe start of N1 is better, I just wouldn't want to screw an ST for player nonsense.

lucid vault
fierce jolt
#

"Im going to be running a poll to decide script, and sending out roles in the next 5-10 minutes. Please take your seat. Make sure you check message request. If you do not reply to my dms during the night phase, expect me to make a decision on your behalf.".

grand tendon
#

Yeah, we should probably do that more often

#

I am hesitant to pick for a player, but with a warning i might be ok with it

lucid vault
grand tendon
#

Yeah, I had someone go afk for 2-3 minutes and it was the demon. I wasn't sure what to do.

fierce jolt
grand tendon
#

I feel like this needs to be advice given more often, if just for people to expect it if they go afk

fierce jolt
merry tinsel
supple prism
#

In general I think I agree the simplest thing to remove any ambiguity is setting a hard timer for re-rack from the time the storyteller queue ping goes out.
If the issue is afk players during n1 delaying the game enough to push even a game that ended d1 outside the re-rack time then I think the solution there is probably to involve the mods more in regards to that specifically. I'm not saying always immediately involve a mod when someone doesn't respond for 45 seconds, just encourage a general storyteller habit to report any afk issues (with dm records) after the game.
Then regardless of whether the ST feels that the AFKers are the reason, if the game goes past the re-rack timer they need to allow the next ST to go ahead, in-between games is not the time to have that argument of why they went over the time. Then if the first storyteller would like to appeal to have their cooldown removed on the basis of AFKers being the reason for going over time that seems like a reasonable thing they could request for mod review.

merry tinsel
supple prism
merry tinsel
#

Alejo broke down how that 20 minutes is typically spent earlier in this suggestion however, if you want to have a look at that

#

I personally recognise that 20 minutes from ping is probably a bit short if the intention is to allow reasonable day 1 reracks, so I think changing it to 30 min is a good idea

supple prism
#

Yeah I saw that, and from that post it seems very much like that is counting from anything after set-up, and the current ambiguity seems to me to stem from what the expected time to get from queue ping to "end-of-set-up" should be. Because I feel like there could be a reasonable disagreement between players and storytellers about what the reasonable time to take for that is. And from the players perspective, I feel like they are naturally inclined to start their own "mental timer" for how long they've been going from when they asked for a storyteller to show up. While a Storyteller seems more naturally inclined to start that mental timer once players and script have already been decided and they can actually start character selection. Codifying the reasonable time to get from Storyteller ping to end of game for the re-rack time seems to me like the best way to try to calibrate that subjective difference in experience between storytellers and players.

#

Not having been involved in live games since a lot of the queue and guideline enhancements have been in place, I don't have a great feeling of what that specific time frame should be. But 20 minutes from ping definitely feels too short to me, 30 seems more reasonable, and if you want to not "punish" storytellers who might need the full 5 minute waiting period at the start to get set-up with discord and the like, maybe even 35.

#

Then any storytellers who are able to very quickly show up and get to the game actually starting receive a little reward in that their actual game time can go slightly longer and allow for maybe even a day 2 re-rack. Which I think is entirely fair to reward storytellers who are meaningfully contributing to there being less overall down time. As opposed to the current system which gives everyone 20 minutes from some vague idea of when "after set-up" is seemingly regardless of how long it took to get there, other than the general idea of "don't take too long to set-up"

#

The thing to watch for then becomes making sure storytellers aren't rushing through the process unreasonably quickly at the expense of players wanting to join. But from what I've gathered things "going too quickly" is not a current concern.

ashen timber
#

Someone should start timing ST ping to D1 start and give statistics. I'd guess it's probably close to an hour

supple prism
#

That seems very excessive if accurate. Is a lot of that time just trying to get enough players to consider firing a game? Because that's the only caveat I would give to extending a re-rack timer.

supple prism
#

Another probably relevant consideration that occurred to me where I simply don't know what the reality of the system is due to not personally experiencing it: When a storyteller finishes a game are they typically triggering the next command very shortly after the game is over, or waiting until after the "curtain call" and a bit of post-game discussion time? Because I can see reasons to do it both ways either to give the next storyteller a bit more of a heads up, or to make the next command a very clear delineation of "we are completely done with everything involved with the previous game, next storyteller you have everyone's full attention." The guidelines as currently written seem to be in favor of the latter, and if the guideline timers going forward are going to be based on queue ping as the starting point it will need to be enforced that way so that using the next command signals to stop talking about the previous game and help the storyteller get the next one going. Even if the intention with pinging the next storyteller sooner is in good faith, if the reality is players aren't ready to actually move on that's not fair to the next storyteller, especially if that ping time becomes more meaningful.

fierce jolt
merry tinsel
#

An hour from ping to D1 start is FAR too long imo. I haven't timed it in all honesty, but I'd be surprised if it takes longer than 15 minutes to get D1 going from ping on my average game

supple prism
#

As long as enough willing players are already present and the voice channel is ready to focus on moving on to the next game. If either of those conditions are not met then a portion of that time is not really on the storyteller and should more be counted against everyone else in the voice channel.

lucid vault
lucid vault
broken bolt
#

I know someone suggested this for another thing but have some pre-ready from ideas that you have pics of to help speed up the process if you’re worried about it (doesn’t help for random customs)

#

I also know if you’re gonna put customs on the poll warn people to have a custom ready by the end of the poll or you’ll just use a custom you already have ready.

#

A lot of the long starts are due to indecision. Sometimes limiting people’s options isn’t the worst thing

acoustic jackal
#

As a personal preference, I prefer seeing specific customs polled along with the base 3. To me, voting on a generic "custom" is never better than picking one of TB BMR or SNV

zealous idol
#

(I also suspect that inexperienced STs ending up running suggested customs that the ST isn't familiar with extends game time on average.)

merry tinsel
# acoustic jackal As a personal preference, I prefer seeing specific customs polled along with the...

100% agreed. It's a major pet peeve of mine when people don't list the customs at the same time as the base 3, only revealing which customs will be polled once custom has won already. I understand that it's usually so that people can suggest customs, but... well, as someone who runs only their own customs 99% of the time, I think you should be familiar with a custom before you make it an option to run it, so asking for suggestions for customs is something I'm not a fan of anyway haha

zealous idol
#

one of my few regrets with shadowbot is that its *pollc command encourages this, but it was the norm long before that 🙂

woven cargo
#

While I would absolutely LOVE it to be a cute 15 minutes between the end of the last game, and waking up for day 1...you are probably looking at 20 minutes for roles to be sent out, and another 10 minutes for night 1 being the norm. There is certainly a disconnect between expectations and reality in this conversation.

unique hinge
#

I don’t think that’s a reasonable norm. When TPI run games at conventions, for example, we run 9-player games that take an hour from start to finish (start being gathering your players, getting them in their seats, and reading them the rules prior to passing out tokens. Obviously online and in-person are different, but things should be faster online imo because you don’t have to deal with the physical components. I think it will take quite a lot of community effort to shift the overton window on how okay it is to afk during night phases etc, but it is more than achievable to have shorter timeframes.

#

10 minutes is ridiculous for a night one imo, it shouldn’t take more than 5 minutes and if the interactions are that complicated for an ST to run, then they maybe should consider running a more straightforward script…

#

I can absolutely empathize with folks who are learning to ST, but the norm for experienced STs should be much faster than 30 minutes from gathering your players to starting day 1.

merry tinsel
fierce jolt
merry tinsel
#

IMO, if that happens, people should be asked to drop out equal to number of people waiting

#

and if no-one volunteers, whoever has played the most consecutive games in a row

fierce jolt
#

The only way I’ve gotten around is to let the next ST knows I’m in *wait queue, so can they rack me but it feels like I’m lowkey breaking the rules but it’s only way I ever get in, because STs wait so long before they .next

fierce jolt
supple prism
# unique hinge I can absolutely empathize with folks who are learning to ST, but the norm for e...

To be clear, my suggested timeline with the 30 minutes is from storyteller getting pinged to the END of d1, because (and correct me if I'm wrong) the goal of the "entitled storytelling time" in the guidelines is primarily to allow d1 re-racks most of the time they happen, unless getting to that d1 game end took very unreasonably long. As for the comparison to convention games, I really don't think that's a fair comparison at all not just because of differences between in person and online but because of the convention environment specifically. I haven't played convention clocktower but I assume there is literally never any time where players are waiting for a storyteller to show up, which can be the case here and it's very reasonably given 5 minutes to allow that to happen. I also assume that in the planned convention games players aren't being polled on what script to play before the storyteller is even able to start setting up, that's all scheduled ahead of time. As for rules explanations, sure you don't have to do that every time here because not every game has new players, but any standard guidelines still have to allow that time to not penalize storytellers for time taken to explain the game. One could make an argument that you can pass that responsibility to other players and sometimes that's fine, but I think it makes more sense for that to be considered primarily a ST's responsibility. And while I don't have recent live game experience here, back when I did play set up was definitely slowed down by players still discussing the previous game while the next game was trying to get set-up, which is also not something I imagine happens at conventions. If the only goal is to get from end of one game to start of the next in the shortest time possible then cutting out all post game discussion is potentially the best way to do that, but I can't imagine anyone wants that and it feels like an important part of clocktower would be lost if that was the route taken.

supple prism
#

To consolidate my suggestions in one post.

  1. Storytellers are entitled to some amount of time (maybe 30 minutes) in which if their game ends they are allowed to re-rack. This time starts when they are pinged by the storyteller queue, which is a very clear time noted by the bot message.
  2. If the above is implemented, it should be enforced that the previous storyteller does not use the next command until after the post game discussion, which is what is implied with the current guidelines anyway but because we are using the queue ping as a starting point for a hard timer now needs to be enforced.
  3. The use of the next command needs to be treated (and noted in the guidelines) as a signal to all players in the voice chat that their primary goal is helping the next storyteller get the next game started. Practically for me this primarily means discussion of the previous game should completely stop at this point.
  4. Players who use the wait command (and are not in the current game ofc) should be entitled to playing in the next game. My suggestion for this is like how Storytellers are given 5 minutes to show up for their spot, players waiting also have 5 minutes from the next command to show up. If possible, put the names of those players in the bot message that pings the storyteller so the storyteller knows how many players were waiting. Remaining player slots can then be filled with anyone, and any no show waiters after 5 minutes can be replaced. (Thanks @fierce jolt for making me realize this can be an issue).
  5. The timer from point 1 is a hard cap after which the storyteller must use the next command. If their game went slightly over the timer and they feel the only reason is because of players being afk or otherwise slowing any part of the process down in ways the storyteller has no control over, they still must use the next command but can appeal to the mods presenting evidence of player slowdowns to potentially have their cooldown removed.
zealous idol
#

Another factor I'm not sure I've heard noted is accessibility. We do have some players -- and storytellers -- who play on their phone only. That slows down typing and juggling Discord and the bra1n tool considerably.

fierce jolt
# zealous idol Another factor I'm not sure I've heard noted is accessibility. We do have some p...

Then they just have to accept that them being slower, means they can’t always do a day 1 rerack and should make grins to avoid those. I don’t know why it should be an entitlement or even expected, that people will need to do day 1 reracks often. Let’s hope it’s a rare example and have a couple set rules for the very rare situations where it happens, which are universal for all and continue to promote a healthy queue where everyone has a chance to ST. 35 minutes from ping seems very acceptable

zealous idol
#

Ah sorry, it's hard for me to thread this discussion so I didn't mean that as an argument against a 30-35 min timer -- just to contextualize another reason why night 1 doesn't always take 3 minutes.

#

Honestly I historically have always used .next even after d1 reracks and it's only relatively recently that I think an entitlement beyond that started to exist (or at least, potentially apply to me).

fierce jolt
supple prism
# fierce jolt Then they just have to accept that them being slower, means they can’t always do...

I agree with that. This thread was made because there was clearly some level of confusion about the current guidelines for the re-rack time and when that timer started. Very quick game ends should be a relatively rare occurrence but when they do happen we don't want STs to fell like they didn't get their fair time to ST that they waited in the queue for.

The conversation about time between end of one game (or next command) to some point of the next game stemmed from wanting to use the next command as a clear starting point. Which raises some questions about when and how that command is being used and making sure the time we tell a storyteller they are entitled to isn't eaten up by other people not yet focusing on moving on and slowing down that process. Once a Storyteller is being brought in, that's when we should start counting what the true "between game" time is.

#

And if that's currently being slowed down by people other than the storyteller, we need to be holding those people accountable rather than the storyteller, and setting clear responsibilities for players during "between game" time.

zealous idol
#

heh, I certainly have more difficulty getting my "hey! if you're out, get out; if you're in, get in; script poll, etc" spiel in than most other tasks as ST because an animated discussion is often happening and people don't really respect the (ST) tag as much before characters are sent 🙂

#

and I feel guilty because at least when it's not toxic, postgaming is part of the enjoyment for me, too 🙂

supple prism
#

That's the kind of point I tried to make earlier. I would be willing to bet that psychologically the players' conception of time between games/set-up starts immediately at the end of the previous one, while a STs conception of time between games/set-up doesn't start until players and script have already been decided. Which depending on how things are going can be a very different perceived time between those two groups.

#

And the way to make everything fair to everyone is to make it very clear what the server considers as the standard goal for what time should be counted, and everyone's responsibilities during that time.

#

And of course if a Storyteller doesn't want to re-rack they can just use the next command regardless of anything decided here.

merry tinsel
merry tinsel
lucid vault
supple prism
# merry tinsel I like the majority of this, however I disagree that post game convo needs to ha...

I acknowledge a complete hard cut-off on discussion might not be necessary and mods can make their decision on exactly how tight they want to go on that if at all. But at the very least the next storyteller shouldn't be called in as that discussion is going full force and be expected to set up as quickly. And some more things could probably be added to the "responsibilities of the player before the game" section of the rules that would encourage them to be more aware of how they can facilitate the storyteller setting up faster, such as reducing the amount of discussion not related to getting that going.

merry tinsel
merry tinsel
zealous idol
# unique hinge I don’t think that’s a reasonable norm. When TPI run games at conventions, for e...

I know you run a ton in person and play online, but have you timed yourself STing with the bra1n tool and discord? I admit I hadn't before, but I just tried to do a N1 as fast as I can (and I'm a reasonably quick typist etc) and I got 7 minutes with demon info, minion info, and 6 players having night actions. My best other direct reference point is watching streams (though obviously some time there is spent explaining/chatting) where 15 minute N1 is common.

unique hinge
#

I do think there are some things that can slow players down - for example, if you are DM’ing someone for the first time, you may have to switch from the DMs window to this server and then back in order to start a message with them - but I typically find STing online is much faster than in person because you’re sending a bunch of messages rather than waking people one by one

zealous idol
#

I've found there is overhead to doing it online, even though you can parallelize it a little if you're quick with Discord (I am usually waking two or three players at once).

#

I'm not even clicking to get to DMs, I'm doing Ctrl+K [first three letters] [Enter]

unique hinge
#

Waiting for folks to respond is certainly something, but the easiest fix to that is asking players for pre-actions. For example, the FT in the first game I ran would just message me at the beginning of the night “If I live, I pick [name] and [name]” and then I could just respond to him when I got there, if he was still alive

#

Obviously not every character can or should pre-act, but it’s an option for folks who are slower to respond, especially if someone needs to AFK in the night for some reason

unique hinge
zealous idol
#

I'm not sure I can pin it down except that I didn't have any dead/decision-making time. I do think placing the Poisoned token IRL is quicker than clicking in the tool, even though that is fairly quick.

#

I could go back and find the exact timestamps of all my messages. I expected to agree with you but when I actually timed it on a script which has a moderate amount of night actions I found it easy to get pushed over 5 minutes.

#

(The Philo went Savant later on, which also added time -- I think I'm probably not the only ST who tries to prepare it at night.)

#

I do also take notes on player's choices which probably adds like 30% to my time; part of that is so that I can do a quick 15 second double-check and part is so that I can more effectively recap.

#

I could probably get consistently under 5 minutes without that but just barely (and I type for a living and have STed about 350 games, so while I'm not the most experienced I'm probably more than average), so I'm not suuure it's a reasonable upper bound.

#

and honestly I could've used another minute on a couple nights to come up with better savant info 🙂

unique hinge
#

I do think it varies depending on the script, the interactions in play, and the decisions you have to make! I had some openly long nights late game today because I needed to give Drunk UT information that kept multiple worlds open for both good and evil. I don’t necessarily think every night should be under 5 minutes, just that it’s a reasonable goal for the time between tokens going out and day 1 starting.

zealous idol
#

Ah okay, I think it's a reasonable goal -- just not sure it's going to be the 95th %ile in a 12 player game.

unique hinge
#

Yeah, I think the idea is that it’s a goal - something to aim for!

#

The broader, more achievable thing that’s come up for me from this thread is giving STs the tools to effectively manage the time between games. It’s something that’s not often talked about in the scope of storytelling but actually matters quite a bit when you’re running multiple consecutive games

#

I’m not super keen on giving hard deadlines like “You must ping the ST x minutes after the previous game has ended”, “The ST must [gather players/put up a poll/etc] x minutes after they are pinged”

#

I’m also thinking about the fact that the entire queue system in the first place came about because we wanted to make sure everyone who wanted to had a chance to ST. When I joined the server, STing was a free-for-all, and there were some people who ran games a lot, and some people who literally never got to because they never had space for it to be their turn. I do think the queue system has improved folks’ opportunities to ST, and I want to approach whatever solution we come up with with the mindset of continuing to get closer to that goal of equitable ST opportunity for anyone who is interested in running a game.

fierce jolt
unique hinge
#

Yes, and that “clear cutoff line” exists to make sure everyone gets a fair opportunity to ST, right?

fierce jolt
#

And to make sure people feel they all have the same opportunity to rerack, should they run into issues. I think it’s fair it’s short. I’ve played in games where the racking, night and day has taken 45 minutes, then ST makes a mistake and rerack, and by then I’m emotionally checked out of waiting that long again

unique hinge
#

Any thoughts on why it’s taking 45 minutes? That’s so long it’s crossing into the area of unfair to the players, imo

#

When I played regularly here, the most common cause of this was STs overestimating how complex of a script they could run

#

I think there is a crucial difference between understanding how interactions between characters work, and being able to run them in a balanced and timely fashion

merry tinsel
#

In fairness, there's one character that still really slows me down, and that's the Savant xD

zealous idol
#

I do think that's common, but not the only thing.

#

And yeah, Savant (or creating room to bluff Savant) is hard, even for experienced. Maybe the ultra tier can do it on the fly but it's easy to accidentally give too powerful info for online (where memory is perfect).

#

I have had 30-40 min N1 (or N2) as a player and agree that's way too long 🙂

unique hinge
#

Maybe I should move “Guide to Savant Info” higher on the list of Storyteller Training resources

#

Savant is a real toughie because you have to be so much more aware of everything in the gamestate so you can consider all the different ways the info can be interpreted, and then weigh that against the likelihood of players interpreting it in a particular way based on what you know about how the players are thinking about the game

#

e.g. if it’s a non-Vortox game but good players all think it’s Vortox, you’ll want to give info that mechanically keeps Vortox worlds in play and can be interpreted to lead to the correct demon

zealous idol
#

Heaven help you if there's a Philo Savant too

#

(err, Philo Savant. I don't let players gain the ST ability)

unique hinge
#

The wonderful @real monolith brought me to games in London once and we pretended I was a new player, and that lasted until about halfway through D1 when the Witch bluffing Savant claimed one of their statements was “There are two outsiders in play” and I immediately blurted out “Oh, so you’re confirming it’s not a Vortox game?”

#

Point being it takes a while to get to the point where as an ST, you’re able to quickly identify the consequences of any given statement and how they relate to the overall gamestate

#

Agh I have so much work for my other job right now and all I want to do is start actually documenting all the stuff that’s going to go into the Savant guide 😂

zealous idol
#

I do love that the #1024526953992163390 thread exists

fierce jolt
unique hinge
#

If the person is a new ST, they should only be running TB, and nothing on N1 of TB should take 45 minutes to run.

merry tinsel
#

I've seen STs that aren't brand new, but also aren't as experienced as they think they are take over an hour to get D1 started, with no external factors to slow them down 🙃

unique hinge
#

Yeah - that's just disrespectful to your players at that point.

fierce jolt
merry tinsel
#

It's gotten better across the server in general imo, but there's still some people that don't realise that as an ST, your first duty is to the players and their enjoyment of the game. This includes things like doing particular set ups because the ST thinks they'll be "funny", for "meme value", or just other stuff that clearly indicates they are thinking of themselves before their players

merry tinsel
unique hinge
#

I suppose that's part of what the ST feedback form is for...

merry tinsel
#

Yep

unique hinge
#

And maybe it should be more of a general player responsibility that if the ST is new, players are responsible for making sure the co-ST is experienced

merry tinsel
#

Agreed (doesn't help when EVERYONE involved is new, but there's only so much we can do haha)

unique hinge
#

True - but hopefully there is a spectator around, or a Live Team mod or a minion at worst?

#

I can rarely hop in VC, but like.. my DMs are always open

merry tinsel
#

oh, for sure

#

we are talking a niche situation, within a niche situation atm lol

zealous idol
#

Note to self: next time I need Savant info, just DM the grim to jams at the beginning of the night 😉

fierce jolt
merry tinsel
unique hinge
unique hinge
#

Like

#

So surprised that I used the word genuinely twice in that sentence 😂

#

What the actual fork?

fierce jolt
#

I think a lot of people would ever report, even when the game runs poorly. I was once savant, who sat in storyteller consult all 5 days for the whole day because the ST was so slow at making information (the ST was very apologetic), but I never reported that for example, because it feels like kicking new STs and that’s not a good feeling

unique hinge
#

I think maybe then we need to reframe the mentality of tickets. It's not about getting people in trouble - it's about getting folks the support they need in order to be better STs & community members

zealous idol
#

It often goes "I'm the ST, the players voted for this script, stop interfering, we know that we're doing, let us have fun". And to be fair, there is a bar that is pestering.

unique hinge
#

But... it's not fun to have to sit through an unfairly long game 🤔

zealous idol
#

I think my longest n1 ever involved a engineer (Philo engineer maybe?) who changed the minions and made me go update the Alchemist too. (Sigh)

merry tinsel
#

ooh yep, that would stuff things up

lucid vault
fierce jolt
#

Theres currently an example going. Its been 50 minutes since the ST was pinged, and they are currently still in night 1 @unique hinge @merry tinsel
Its a very common occurence lately, and definitely effects the queue running very slowly

unique hinge
#

@gray mist and @distant bay are in that game, perhaps they have more insight on why it’s taking so long?

distant bay
#

I have a little insight, but sharing it right now would risk spoilers for the game

vapid gorge
#

dm me?

#

Or sharing it after the game would be very useful (as long as it is insight that can help the community as a whole run smoother games and not just putting the ST on blast)

fierce jolt
#

I dont think its a spoiler really, so ill say that its because he did very long flavourtext, for each player I believe

acoustic jackal
#

I think we're getting off point of the original topic. Perhaps there's a whole topic to be explored here in terms of ST readiness and supporting players and STs for complex night order scripts but the primary purpose of this was to discuss the current rules surrounding reracking and defining / tightening them to remove bias.

All of the discussions above seem to be exceptions to the "standard" night length and imo should not be accomodated by the rerack timer.

#

I will also say, from my own personal perspective, a rerack should be relatively rare, especially a short one. This cooldown period is not expected to take place often. Games should be started with the aim of being balanced enough to go multiple days / nights most of the time. So this rule is to accommodate the exceptional case of town got lucky or evil got unlucky or a whoopsy happened

vapid gorge
#

The original suggestion was to make the timer last to the end of the first game day instead of 20 minutes, and the discussion has mostly been how night 1s’ extremely (perhaps unacceptably) variable lengths make that not viable

acoustic jackal
#

But the examples being discussed (new STs with customs, customs in general with complex interactions, people going afk) are not the expectated and I don't think we should accomodate them. Rather we should try prevent them.

vapid gorge
#

I definitely agree with the sentiment that reracks should be rarer, like sometimes the slayer guesses the demon completely randomly at the start of d1 and that’s out of everyone’s control. Reracks have definitely been more common since they’ve been explicitly allowed in the rules and not informally begrudgingly allowed when the game ends so suddenly the players feel bad for the ST

unique hinge
#

I don’t think anyone here has the end goal that we accommodate any of the things you’ve just described when allowing reracks!

#

To that end - I do think a “whichever comes first” would be an effective solution to making the timer more inclusive and less susceptible to bias

vapid gorge
#

Day 1 end or X minutes from .next, whichever comes first?

acoustic jackal
#

I like that a lot.

#

Although I still think teensys should be except from N1. Part of the reasoning behind this was to encourage teensys while waiting for enough players for a full game

vapid gorge
#

Early in this rules update era, Alejo ran a 7p speed TB in 15 minutes while waiting for more players

supple prism
#

Isn't there no difference between that and just the timer, or am I being dumb? If day 1 game end comes first you are in the period covered by the timer, and the timer is there to prevent people from re-racking after day 1 taking an hour to get through. Or is the purpose of that to allow re-racks ONLY on day 1, even if the storyteller got all the way through d2 in 30 minutes (including gathering players and set up). That's fine, though "rewarding" storytellers for being able to get from ping all the way through d2, therefore drastically reducing the current down time doesn't necessarily seem like a problem to me.

vapid gorge
acoustic jackal
vague sequoia
#

I blush

#

I would say, a lot of this discussion seems to be focused on fairness towards players; it seems to me that a lot of delays are caused by players talking at great length about the previous game

supple prism
merry tinsel
#

I can tell you from when I STed last night, that the previous game had been a heated one, so once I was pinged I set polls up, and then told the players that there was a poll. Once polls finished, I told the group that if they wanted to continue talking about the last game, they'd have to do it elsewhere, because the focus needed to be on the new game.
Worked well 👍

#

One of the issues we have in terms of STs getting things moving by doing things like what I did is that quite a few STs are quiet types and don't want to step on toes or anything like that. Perhaps we could usefully add stuff to an ST toolkit to remind them that if players are breaking rules, or doing things that don't belong in your game, it is your job as the ST to shut that stuff down - if you aren't able to, get a mod to help out.
But also, we could maybe have like ST training sessions to help develop those skills

#

But yeah, this thread keeps going in myriad directions lol

#

There's a couple new threads that could be started from this, but I think the main summary would be this:
Option 1, increase rerack allowed timer to 30 minutes, but it starts when .next happens.
Option 2, same as above, but end of day 1 before the timer runs up auto ends the timer.

Finally, I do think we need to discuss if teensys are included in this limit, or if they have more of a "whole game time" limit. Ie, if you run them quickly, are you allowed to run 3 teensys in a row, as long as you don't go over one hour in total? (Or some other number)

merry tinsel
fierce jolt
vapid gorge
#

So I had a day 1 game end earlier, wasn’t tragic or anything but it did remind me of this thread and I thought I could give some data what server timing norms are because I feel like it was a very average game. I’ve got a few months of ST experience and it was a base script I run a lot (BMR), and from beginning of setup (right after poll ended) to day 1 end was about 45 minutes. Night 1 was 6 minutes, day 1 whispers were 5 minutes, and town just kinda got lucky and executed the demon day 1 with no Mastermind in play. Definitely a lot of room for improvement, which I might aim for either by practice or by doing more prep before my queue spot comes up, but the anecdotal evidence presented here so far about game times has mostly been either from veteran STs or are about STs who are trying an unfamiliar custom and have hour-long nights.

merry tinsel
vapid gorge
#

base3 poll posted 7:06
poll closed 7:09
First night action dm 7:20
Last night action dm 7:26
Day whisper timer posted 7:28
Day whispers closed 7:33
.next 7:47

small cometBOT
#
Above time (07:06 EDT) in your local time ·
vapid gorge
#

So setup took a bit over 10 minutes

merry tinsel
#

oh, those are timestamps, not time since starting LOL. Was wondering at first how it took 7 minutes and 6 seconds to start posting polls, but then 3 seconds to close polls LOL

vapid gorge
#

Discord timestamps in my timezone

merry tinsel
#

Mmm, fair haha

#

Well, imo, 2 minutes is plenty for a poll, but I don't think this discussion should primarily be about where small allotments of time can be saved. 14 minutes from whispers closed to .next is the only section where we are talking about more than a minute of time being saved by getting more efficient at stuff (which just comes with experience).

From those timings, I personally think that it's reasonable not to rerack. Unfortunate that the game was over D1, but if I was in the queue waiting to go, I'd be upset if the game was reracked after 40 minutes there.

#

If you rerack, and we assume similar timings (minus poll), that's another 40 minutes for another d1, let alone if the game goes beyond D1 again. If we go by the standard that BOTC games should take 1-2hours, that rerack is going to VERY easily go over that timeframe

vapid gorge
#

I agree it’s not rerack-worthy, I just had some players remark that it was a very standard game start-day 1 end length for this server, for better or for worse, so I figured I’d grab some numbers about it

vapid gorge
#

I want to try to link back to the original suggestion and say that the real solution is having an understanding as a server (maybe a clarification in the rules document) that the rerack rule is not meant to cover the majority of games that end day 1 and it is primarily for exceptional circumstances. Because unless we all collectively git gud, a rerack rule cannot cover the majority of day 1 rerack situations without stretching queue wait times out an unacceptable amount for the reasons you just explained.

merry tinsel
merry tinsel
vapid gorge
#

Yeah, the quantitative rules change to have the timer start at .next will make the rule more consistently enforceable, and the reframing of the rule from “It’s for day 1 reracks” to “It’s for games that end exceptionally quickly and will not apply to most day 1 reracks” will make people more willing to consistently enforce it.

fringe crow
#

If these rules are going to exist, can we please get the mod team to all agree on it and properly enforce it? At this point you should just ban reracks completely since noone enforces the (edit: current) rules equally across the board. Take the subjectivity out of the equation.

vapid gorge
#

Totally agree on the need for enforcement, I unfollowed this thread because I believe the debate on what the actual rule change should be has come to a natural conclusion (after over 300 messages, holy moly). Of course it will take some time for the mod team to internally solidify the rules change if they choose to make any and communicate it to the whole live game community so it can start being enforced, but the sooner the better.

woven cargo
#

I think it is generally healthy to have expectations of faster night ones, I'd certainly get to play in a lot more games! That being said, functionally though, the suggested ruling better reads: 'No re-racks due to genuine game ends are allowed' because MOST story tellers cannot have a game end for a genuine reason inside 30 minutes.
There is nothing wrong with having a rule such as that, its clear, concise, and doesn't leave room for interpretation.

grand tendon
#

I feel like the current rule is fine after discussing the options. It is simple and people seem to know it.

queen kraken
#

I'd like to also suggest increasing the length of time allowing for a rerack to 30 minutes . There were 2 games in a row that had a day 1 resolve but just pushed over the 20 minutes mark and ended the storytellers turn.

#

There are events that are beyond the STs control like players not answering messages or going afk.

And when the game is starting, Players need to be chased to sit down often or need help with the grim. These may be short moments but add up quickly.

Players need time to discuss other games, promote discussion and recall moments. Thats what makes the games fun. Players form connections. Cutting conversions off can feel mechanical and like players are being rushed. Day 1 nominations, juggles and gossips, last minute consults. I find a game enjoyable when the st allows the town time to discuss. Changing the player expectations of the game may harm connections formed with players and discourage players from STing.

dawn trail
#

I think this has been mentioned before, but players AFKing during a game is its own problem and I don't think the timer should be catering to that specifically, and instead we should be promoting the idea that players are expected to be present and participating

timid marsh
#

I don't think the timer should start at .next. I think the timer should start at the beginning of Night 1. There are too many variables outside the storyteller's control that affect the time from after .next to the time the next game starts, such as when exactly the previous storyteller .next's, the legnth of post game discussion (which I don't think we want to artificially cut short), how responsive players are to sitting in the grim, waiting for 12 players to show up, explaining rules to new players, and last minute player substitutions or drop-outs before the game starts.

distant bay
#

I agree with that. I have a lot of games that start with over 12 people in chat and end up taking 5-10 minutes to even settle who is playing.

timid marsh
#

Also, I would like to draw attention to the orginal point of this post, which was the unequal and biased enforcement of rules on this server. It seems to me that the unequal treatment of Yugi compared to more popular and influential members of this server has been retroactively justified by both members and moderators of this server by suggesting standards that were not commonly understood to be in place before the incident. Let's be honest: if this had been a more popular and influential member of this server, players and moderators would have given the storyteller the benefit of the doubt that the timer starts at the beginning of night 1 or day 1, and not have claimed that it started from when the previous game ends. There are some legitimate ambiguities and issues related to the length of games when reracking that need to be addressed, but I don't want that to detract from the original point of this thread, which is that when there are ambiguities in the rules, they are interpereted and enforced leniently for popular players, but stringently for less popular players, by both players and moderators in this server. This contributes to an exclusive and unwelcoming enviorment in this server.

timid marsh
#

I think that in the case of reracking, if a game ends early and the current storyteller wants to rerack, and it is an edge case, I personally think the storyteller should be given the benefit of the doubt regardless of how popular or well liked or not they are. If a player, spectatator, or the next storyteller objects to it, they can file a ticket or message a moderator, and if it is not an edge case or if it becomes a recurring issue, then it can be addressed. If reracks are causing problems in general on this server, and not just for specific players, then I think either the rule permitting reracks if under 20 minutes should be removed, or it should be made clear that it is to be interpreted strictly across the board, with no one being given the benifit of the doubt for edge cases.

gray mist
vapid gorge
# timid marsh Also, I would like to draw attention to the orginal point of this post, which wa...

While I believe you’ve interpreted the intent of changing the topic of the thread a bit unfairly, enforcing strict rules strictly for everybody and lax rules laxly for everybody should be a priority for both mods and the playerbase, because it is impossible to remove every single ambiguity in the rules. It’s just a less comfortable conversation to have because that kind of inclusive spirit is something most everybody needs to work on for themselves, and more likely to get heated (which is what I think Gambling is trying to avoid with his statement)

vapid gorge
#

The unfair, inconsistent dynamic around the 20 minute rule that led to the grievances the original post was about is both a rules issue and a cultural issue, and the majority of the conversation has been about correcting the rules issue.

supple prism
#

Because as I said before once a Storyteller gets called in, the fairest thing for that Storyteller is that it becomes the priority of everyone in the voice chat to get who is playing straighted out. And I have a feeling the reasonable amount of dedicated time the server wants to aim for to do that is significantly less than 10 minutes (when the group is already formed). If it's taking that long because of unrelated topics, then the fairest thing to the storyteller trying to set up would have been to not call them yet, and it should in the guidelines as a responsibility of people in the voice channel to make sure once a Storyteller is called that their priority is assisting the storyteller.

distant bay
#

I can only speak for my own games, but I have many times had trouble getting a grim set up because there are too many players and then they jump in and out and can't decide between them who is actually staying to play/who is being forced to spectate. I generally try and keep things as expedient as possible, but it's difficult to force.

supple prism
#

Hm, sounds like what we need for those situations is a player queue system! (to be clear this is a joke, I don't want to think about the problems that would come with that when there's already complaints about the ST queue).

supple prism
# timid marsh I don't think the timer should start at .next. I think the timer should start at...

Imo the ideal flow of a pick-up game starting is something like this:

  1. Storyteller is called by the queue (time to show up is completely ST control, max 5 minutes)
  2. Decide/gather players (outside of storyteller control)
  3. Decide script (mostly storyteller control, they set up the polls and decide how long they are open)
  4. Set up grim and assign characters (completely storyteller control)
  5. N1 (both storyteller and player control, player responsibility to not go afk already covered in guidelines and if it's an issue you can make a ticket)
  6. D1 (whisper time completely ST control, nomination/execution time Storyteller and player controlled with storyteller responsible for making sure things keep moving).

Any actions/behaviours from anyone in the voice chat that do not directly contribute to hinder that flow starting from when the storyteller is called imo should be discouraged/disallowed by the guidelines. The only thing in that list that is legitimately outside of storyteller control is the decision of who is playing. And that should only cause problems when the group greatly exceeds 12 players and it's somewhat difficult for players to decide that among themselves (something I think would be less of an issue if it were easier to facilitate second games starting, but that's the other thread).
Starting the timer at n1 causes it to not include any of the time the storyteller is responsible for before then, time that I think should be counted since it's still time the players had to spend just waiting.

#

The current guidelines provide very little in terms of the non-storytellers' responsibilities in making sure the entire set-up process goes smoothly, which I think is the only significant issue with starting whatever timer gets decided at the .next ping (the reason that was suggested is that it's the only real clear consistent text record of the start of a process for things happening in a voice channel). People have mentioned that discussion of the previous game bleeding over into the set-up of the next one can be an issue, and as I've mentioned that has a pretty simple solution of telling the previous storyteller to not .next until that's died down enough for people to focus on the next game and that when the .next ping happens, that's the sign for everyone in the voice channel to move on. Which is imo the fairest thing to do anyway once you've pinged someone asking them to storytell for you.

vapid gorge
fluid axle
#

Just popping in to throw support to changing the rerack policy. Just had a TB D1 rerack which was about 30 minutes from grim link. It was a very average set up and day length, with only two nominations. The feel of the game made me think this should have been re-rackable and policy should be changed to reinforce that.

broken bolt
#

More specifics are required, if everything was within the norm for set up and ay length, what feel made it a re-rackable worthy game?

vapid gorge
#

I was there! The Fortune Teller got lucky and picked the Demon first night and picked the player they socially trusted less to push on with their yes, getting the Demon executed on the first day with no Scarlet Woman in play. Some elements of luck, some elements of social deduction, very standard game that happened to end on Day 1

#

We all felt like it was rerack worthy because of the attitude of “oh it ended day 1, sad, let’s rerack”, but some players brought up that it was over 20 minutes since game start, and even though the policy is controversial it’s ultimately worse if it’s not consistently enforced

#

I think it was about 40 minutes from .next to the next .next (which included the curtain call and the few minutes discussion about whether this was rerackable or not), and it really felt like it was an efficient setup and night and day for the norms of this server

#

My suggestions for options would be
• 40 minutes from .next to accommodate an averagely efficiently run day 1 rerack, maybe holding up the queue a little more than desired sometimes but being objective and inclusive and matching the community’s preconceived expectations of what a day 1 rerack is
• Less time than that from .next, with the clear expectation that this is not for your average day 1 rerack, it is for exceptional circumstances (and define what that might look like ingame)
• Disallow reracks altogether, your queue slot entitles you to one game and once it ends, give your curtain call, have a brief postgame chat and .next no matter what

woven cargo
# timid marsh Also, I would like to draw attention to the orginal point of this post, which wa...

TBH I've thought about writing a similar sentiment three or four times throughout this thread but then have had enough mod attention for one life. It's a fairly obvious reality to those on the other side of the fence, but can also be a confirmation bias/self fulfilling prophecy.

That being said, if you want a good look at unconscious bias, if you made a venn diagram of 'warm colour names' and 'get good statements' you'd find some food for thought.

cerulean bison
#

Sorry to resurrect, has a decision been made so we can start implementing it both socially (e.g. STs that know and can share the link to this) and eventually in the server rules formally. 🙂

fluid axle
#

What so what is the final decision?

merry tinsel
merry tinsel
#

Thanks for your patience folks, has been updated!