#A relook/revamp of Controller effects in PVP

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dusky jetty
#

I get that at one point controllers could essentially perma-lock characters down in PVP, but there should be a middle ground between that, and the current 3 seconds/then immunity for a time that the powers currently do. It honestly really discourages controllers to participate in PVP, both solo or in a team, as they just aren't as viable or useful. What can be done? Something needs to be done, for sure. It's sad to essentially lock out a whole archtype (outside of illusion) from being fun to use/ useful.

219286-20.png
open basin
#

personally I think that if you make controller good in PvP outside its existing PvP niches, you're going to make PvP less fun as a result
playing against hard CC is a serious drag, and controllers' kits are inherently designed toward maximizing CC, and buff/debuff output. they're not designed for damage outright, their PvP playstyle necessarily has to whittle you down through mezzing and containment and debuffing via their secondaries

it's not the same as a dominator whose CC is supplemented by actual damage secondary, giving them much higher burst potential and thus minimizing the amount of time you actually spent being CCed by just making you die for getting CCed in the first place. with controllers, matches can easily be drawn out as they mez-loop you, since they don't have any other way of dealing damage

#

ultimately I think it's a necessary evil that certain ATs don't experience much PvP success. some are just designed better for it than others

#

and as you said, Illusion exists as a Controller PvP opportunity, and with its relative lack of hard CC and mezzing compared to other Control sets I think that's a healthy place to leave controllers

dusky jetty
#

I just really fully disagree, and stand by my initial statement that it's really sad to fully have one archetype be completely non viable, outside of one powerset. I also fully think it's possible to find a balance between being mez looped, and their holds being worthless. What we have currently is just not fun for controllers, as they feel worthless. A new pvper tried the pvp event this last week in Bloody Bay and was fully discouraged from participating, due to how badly their character that they enjoy playing usually performed, due specifically to how controllers currently work in pvp. That is really unfortunate, as they likely won't come back. Should they be able to mass lock down everyone with perma locks? of course not, and not what I am asking for. But there should be a bump in their effectiveness so they can at least feel useful.

open basin
#

disabling your opponent from playing the game being an entire AT concept, and being largely impotent outside of that capability, will always be a one-sided gameplay experience one way or another, it's just not interactive on the receiving end, and avoidant play will result in slow and stale matches. It's the very issues games like Overwatch ran into with how CC-heavy characters were, and it's the reason the stun component of the Sandman in TF2 was removed outright

#

you just cant make it strong and viable without making it annoying to play against, and most people matching up vs a controller in a pro-controller meta will want to play lame and distant to avoid the one thing controller is going to be trying to do

#

and if your solution is to give controllers more damage in pvp, then you're just making them into dominators

#

as for the player being discouraged from playing pvp in bloody bay because they were a controller.... idk, I just don't think there's an obligation to make every AT functional in PvP
if anything I think PvP should be one of the numeric scores displayed on the AT selection screen, so that players can at least be warned when making a character whether their AT choice is suited better or worse to PvP

dusky jetty
#

That seems like a very short sighted and "give up" type of view. And I never suggested making them have more damage. I think they should be able to be useful at what they are, controllers.

open basin
# dusky jetty That seems like a very short sighted and "give up" type of view. And I never sug...

I mean you really have only two options, controllers either mez til you're dead or they're given more damage to make their mezzes more opportunistic
either way their PvP gameplan is to minimize how much their opponent is able to play the game

make them too weak and their gameplan falls apart completely, make them even a little bit too strong and playing against them is a slog. and there's not really a comfortable balance point, because a weak controller might still be able to freely mez-loop squishier ATs like blasters and doms, but then be completely impotent against the mez protection a scrapper or stalker would have access to. but if you make them strong enough to reliably mez the melee ATs, they'd completely invalidate the ATs that don't have self mez protection

#

the fact that controller is over-reliant on one set of mechanics and tools and those tools are designed to disable their opponents' ability to play, and those tools are specifically resisted by a limited set of tools that only certain ATs have access to, makes them impossible to effectively balance and design for PvP in a way that's satisfying to play against or play as

flat dirge
#

i remember the good old days before i12. We would run ice/rad trollers, mind dom's and fortunata's
they were so OP, to the point where tanks, scrappers and brutes were useless.

#

add in a phase shifting pocket emp and watch other teams rage quit

lilac dragon
#

Usually we dont encourage dual boxing in pvp since most players come in with 1 toon

#

Pretty sure that trollers can be viable at lower lvls pvp since less people have mez protection at that range but at higher lvl range i can see why the mez get less prominent. Pretty sure you can make a troller work in pvp if build for it. We got players like Zeal who think outside the box and are able to make things work and im pretty sure he as a troller hes able to pvp with.

dry ledge
#

@dusky jetty

Was the pvp event team- based or solo?

Was the Controller specced with a PVP build or did they take their PVE kit into PVP?

proper cypress
#

I Can think of a third option but it’s probably no less weird — which is making cc powers work very differently in pvp, like make immob do slow target instead snd holds become -recharge or something, so it never fully mezzes a player, but can help tip the scales of battle. But that’s probably too weird and also difficult to code?

onyx shoal
#

I've never played a controller in pvp, but have on several instances been torn apart by them, controllers can be absolutely brutal in pvp. Dominators honestly got the short end of the deal, where stacking controls on a controller adds damage, the controls on dominators are really only valuable for secondary effects; which leaves them filling a damage role when solo. Though, In a team both AT's are very useful as a way of dropping toggles and helping slow runners.

#

PVP requires a very different rotation from PVE. Stacking stealth, self intangibility, slotting certain attacks for debuff are things I'd never do in PVE, but in PVP can all be viable options. Where AoE effects and team buff auras are much less valuable since everyone is spread out and constantly moving.

onyx shoal
# proper cypress I Can think of a third option but it’s probably no less weird — which is making ...

I don't mean to discourage or dismiss you @dusky jetty , control classes in PVP do get a rude awakening. I have been thinking about how to improve mez in pvp for a few years, and I agree it's a problem both pre and post i13 changes. Every time I end up concluding something like this suggestion; strengthen secondary effects. But again, it would still be a very different play style from the PVE game. To complicate things, the two control classes have different needs, so to help one without over boosting the other is another facet.

dusky jetty
dusky jetty