#Cartrige Overwrite - need for nerf

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

light rapids
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Good morning,
I'm proposing a slight change for a Cartridge Overwrite stations since they are way too OP right now.

At the moment you have 3 options:

  1. Change a certain cartridge into empty one
  2. Use random/empty cartridge into something else
  3. Use random/empty cartridge into something else

Situation at the moment makes it super unbalanced because if you roll throw or stacks(stacks are even more OP in this case) and you were going with Nether all the time choosing Extreme maps and you will have really a lot of cartridges on you, you can just exchange them for throw/stack cartridge and have 20/30/40 of them. With 20 throw cartridges you can throw through the whole map and with stack one you can have Eiffel Tower of tracks on you and finish before train even starts going.

Proposed solution:
Let's limit amount of cartridges you can exchange for other ones to e.g 5 per station. Throw and stack are quite rare to get so it wouldn't be so bad to have up to 5 changes.
I don't see a need to remake change to empty ones.

Effect:
It will improve a balance of a gameplay as whole and won't make it that easy to go really far or finish the station before train even starts.

Thoughts:
I think this change is really important and can solve many issues with high speeds and far runs where stations end before they start.

latent hare
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Thanks a lot for the feedback! That sounds like a good balancing idea too me. If others have opinions on that I'd love to hear them here.

light rapids
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Cartrige Overwrite - need for nerf

upper zinc
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I think this is not necessary

peak widget
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Honestly a bad change.

Would make the buildup of useless cartridges even worse, and make the overwriter stations useless.

If this nerf actually happens, why not remove the overwriter station entirely?

The overwrite is to control what cartridges you have, and limiting the amount of uses would invalidate that purpose.

pliant ingot
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  • it's RNG that you actually get useful overwrites.
    (Side question, never paid attention: The station only offers cartridges to delete that the players have equipped, right?)
light rapids
finite spruce
sweet nest
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If cartridge rewriting is nerfed, the game will become more Luck based. Since the use of unnecessary weak cartridges is reduced, the need to draw good cartridges with good luck from the beginning increases.

light rapids
sweet nest
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Currently: 20 OP same cartridges are easy to get

If it were to change: 20 OP same cartridges would only be available if you were extremely lucky

light rapids
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Exactly, they are easy to get and that shouldn't be the case since we have rarity of them. And 5 exchanges for OP cartridges is a very good trade since you can exchange unwanted cartridges for smth else but don't rely on one lucky shot in the run and basically fully depending on cartridges

sweet nest
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Currently, throwing and stacking can be done with a small number of retries to get 18 cartridges each.
But if the specifications change like that, you'll have to beat incredible odds to get that cartridge, and the game will become more luck based.

light rapids
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5 cartridges per station is a very good trade compared to 18 of them in one go. It would require a skill to go far enough to find more of them. It's actually lucky based right now since you might or might not find a cartridge overwrite with throw and stack over 6/7k run right now.

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I would actually go as far as propose cartridge "drop" system entirely since seed defines cartridges too much and because of it you mostly find 3/4 cartridges all the time 🤷 maybe this as addition would solve an issue

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But for sure I don't think nerfing broken mechanic that allows you to completely overrun everything you did until this point is wrong

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Or we nerf all the effects of all cartridges so you can still change how many you want but you will still be able to carry up to e.g 10 wood and not 20

upper zinc
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I have a run with 5029m and only 1 stack cart. From now I try to find overwrite stations but it's already so rare and even If I get one, I have so many cart it's even more unlikely that I get the chance to change the stack cart.

Stack cartridge is rare too. Maybe you can get 1 during in the first 1000m if you are lucky but in this run I had to go more than 4000m to get one. I had 30+ other useless carts.

light rapids
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Also regarding not getting enough stack cartridges, were you getting more of certain cartridges?

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Like mainly axe or pickaxe

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Not even mentioning fire and balloon which at this point are not even common anymore 😅

upper zinc
light rapids
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Okay, that's interesting you got same amount of axes and pickaxes

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I have different experience, mostly there is few cartridges that are just appearing most of the times, not much is changing per station. And I'm not talking between rarities but I'm talking about the same rarity

upper zinc
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We did some other tests for the experiment and the other run 2000m only got axe around 11. Not even one pick.

light rapids
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Right?

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So I'm not tripping 🤣🤣

upper zinc
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Yes

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I experience the same. There are "favourite" cart in a seed. Maybe. But I did not play enough to state this. It's just a feeling and some experience.

light rapids
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I think it's because this whole system is strictly connected to the seed? And that's why it's like this?

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Yeah, I would need to test a little more to be able to say for sure too but I have a similar feeling, that some cartridges just have higher chance to appear then other in same rarity level

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And it changes based on a seed. Sometimes way more picks then axes, other time it's the other way around

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Same with throws and stacks and magnets

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Sometimes there is a lot of throws and no stacks or magnets

upper zinc
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Yes

light rapids
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Then next run you have way more stacks then throws

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And you struggle to get even one for everyone in a team 😅

upper zinc
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One thing I realized during these test runs: I don’t enjoy the game as much if I don’t have a stack cart.

Without a stack cart, you can only carry 3 tracks at a time. Last time, I had to play nearly 5000m before getting my first stack cart, and even then, you’re stuck with just 4 tracks in your hand—unless you get really lucky with an overwrite station... you continue to struggle with only 4 tracks. When you’re dealing with 9-12 types of carts, overwrite stations are a serious gamble!

For me, it just isn’t as enjoyable (havin only 3 tracks in my hand). If I can carry 10-21 tracks, I can push our team further, hit higher speeds, and enjoy the adrenaline rush—it’s so much more fun that way!

That 5000m run was pure struggle and frustration. With only 3 tracks, we had to switch biomes far earlier than we would have with a stack cart.

It felt like I was missing out on the full mechanics and strategies of the game just because I didn’t have one.

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The cartridge system is what gives Unrailed 2 a fresh and, for me, much more interesting feel. I understand that some players might not like it or would prefer something closer to Unrailed 1 or would like to nerf it/balance it.

I’ve already logged more playtime in Unrailed 2 than in the first game, and that’s largely because of these new features.

It would honestly be disappointing for me if the cartridge system became less impactful in the gameplay, as it’s the part of the game that brings me the most joy.

That said, these are just my personal feelings, and I can understand why others might advocate for changes.

finite spruce
upper zinc
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I did play a lot 😀

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And I really like it

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But I like unrailed 2 more.

light rapids
# upper zinc The cartridge system is what gives Unrailed 2 a fresh and, for me, much more int...

I can fully understand, it's really a lot of fun using cartridges and try to use them in a strange ways, I recently had a run with people where we had a lot of magnets and we just produced tracks at the end and tracks placer could go a whole map just picking them up from a start of the map basically 🤣 but we need to acknowledge they are quite broken right now and for regular gameplay in my opinion cartridge handling system should be remade, also how much cartridges are bound to run seed, just seems unfair you get more of ones then another and it's not like 10% disparity buy it feels like e.g axe has 90% chance of appearing and pickaxe 10% or less. That's why I'm fine with another game mode where cartridges would stay as they are or even boost them so we still can have a fun carrying 20 items and throwing them 3km to the front or mine like you just snorted 10kg of cocaine.

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I made a post in idea channel about time based WR hunting game mode and I think it could stay there like this, would be really fun to see people fight at some point for seconds to be in first place with pre-defined generated seed so it's not "luck" based. Although having luck in it would also be interesting and looking for better seeds

upper zinc
light rapids
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But for regular mode I just have a feeling I focus more on cartridges now and it feels more like cartridge game now then game about your train 😁 as you noticed you don't feel fun in carrying 3 items to a train but form the other side I would really enjoy and I do even now trying new combinations of wagons and trying to come up with train layout which will allow me to do better and balancing between amount of extensions, what extensions to put, which engine to use just seems very fun

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And with cartridge as they are now I just see a gameplay as "whooo, extreeeeemeee!!!! Cartridge Overwrite!!!!!! Please give me stacks, picks, Multitools throws and magnets!!!!! Please please please!!!!" 🤣🤣

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And favoring some cartridges over another because of seed just adds frustration to it ahahah

upper zinc
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I understand that. That's true

granite pasture
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This could be mitigated with how cartages scale, or by making cattrage overwritters more rare

light rapids
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Scaling sure but still an issue is in one moment you can completely go from 0 to hero.

granite pasture
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its also chance based

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is this a product of the overwriter being op, or the nether strat being op and needing to be adjusted?

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Cartrage scaling could argurbly be fine, if you couldnt get so many cartrages as easily in a run

finite spruce
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And the fact that you get so many of these easily

granite pasture
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The nether strat causes you to get the cartrages

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so its either cartrages are too op and you get too many of them

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you get too many cartrages, so cartrages are op

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or the scaling on cartrages is bad

light rapids
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But you get random cartridges and they don't make you that OP

granite pasture
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so buff those ones, and then nerf overwriters

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this would be nerfing overwriters i think for the wrong reason

light rapids
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Although I also agree there might be too many extreme stations with so little nether cartridges but that's different topic 😅

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Not really for wrong reason, you just limit the amount you can exchange at one time for another cartridge

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Okay, then tell me how limitation to 5 cartridges will hurt more then limiting getting cartridges

granite pasture
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cartrage ovewrwriters are only good if they hit

light rapids
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I just want to introduce some more skill based gameplay where you actually need more skill to be able to go further and not just get one at 1k in first biome and get carried for next 6k because you can carry 20 tracks

granite pasture
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if its a problem with getting some common cartrages too easily

light rapids
granite pasture
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you could adjust that rarity

light rapids
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But if they do and you can abuse them by maxing one of them is just putting too much luck

granite pasture
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thats fine

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thats how its balanced

light rapids
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So you basically agreed it my point that it's super luck based

light rapids
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Or made

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Because I wouldn't call it balanced since one lucky shot means you can extend your run dramatically

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Or improve your run dramatically

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On one single lucky overwrite

granite pasture
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yes. thats kind of the entire idea

light rapids
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That's not balanced

granite pasture
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you could also make overwriters rarerr

light rapids
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Or you could just limit them XD

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Like... I don't understand your point

granite pasture
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limiting them makes them feel worse

light rapids
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They are already quite rare compared to other ones

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You have luck factor to get what you want

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So by that you just increase luck factor

granite pasture
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i think introducing a different extreme reward mixed in with the vault

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could be a better way to deal with it too

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or make it so youre limited to 1 nether cart per play

light rapids
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Okay but what then

granite pasture
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you hit, you hit

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thats how it goes

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its a roguelike game

light rapids
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Yes

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But in rouglikes you don't get to change your whole run based on one incident

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You need more lucky ones to be able to do smth

granite pasture
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thats... not true at all

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many roguelikes cna have one event change the run dramatically

light rapids
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That's means they are broken. But popular ones require you to have many lucky events to change the run

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And you just bet on a possibility to get something for your strat

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But you just get it multiple times

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I still don't understand why you all want to abuse shit out of this system XD

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You will literally change everything else instead of that

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Even if 5 changes are already a lot

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Per station

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You all still are against it 🤣

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I just want to limit luck based gameplay for captain roles e.g track placer to get full stack

granite pasture
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if you already agree you have to hit and its all luck based

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the target should be at the nether based strategy then

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this could hit at that

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but it can still high roll

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this would only slightly mitigate it

light rapids
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Yes but still why not just 5 exchanges

granite pasture
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the problem is still there

light rapids
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The problem is luck based system in general

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So just get rid of cartridges

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Or

granite pasture
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so thats unrailed 1

light rapids
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Add additional currency where you have special stations with cartridges you can buy and you earn this currency by going to extremes

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And you can buy stuff with currency

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This still is luck based if you add idk, 5 different cartridges to buy

granite pasture
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i just think the entire design of the game is for you to try to make the most of mitigating luck

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and if some cartrages are just a problem they could be adjusted with scaling, or rarity

light rapids
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And still why not cartridge overwrite

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I presented multiple arguments for why it should be done

granite pasture
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you could switch it to a more risk of rain type situation

light rapids
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And I stil don't know why you protect this limit at all cost

granite pasture
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so you cant turn common cartrages into uncommon

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or common into rare

light rapids
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Okay?

granite pasture
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this would actually probably be a better fix

light rapids
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Sooo

granite pasture
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so if you dont take any rare cartrages

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you cant print out a ton of throwing

light rapids
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You prefere to be able to only exchange green ones to green ones etc instead of having an option to change 5 useless balloons to smth more useful?

granite pasture
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Yes

light rapids
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Sure, it's not a bad idea

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But still don't understand why it's better then limit exchanges XD

granite pasture
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because

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this way

light rapids
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You limit it even more then I do

granite pasture
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if a cartrage is a problem

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you step it up a rarity

light rapids
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But then you need to rework cartridges

granite pasture
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they need to be reworked is the real issue at hand i think

light rapids
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Because common ones are shit for everyone except choppers and minera

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Miners*

granite pasture
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chopping and mining ones should be uncommon probably

light rapids
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And track placers or people tending to a train will not be able to do anything

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But then what should be common

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Just leave fire and balloon?

finite spruce
light rapids
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Well, as everyone said, it's just U1 at this point

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I fully understand that they are very broken right now but I also think that it is a very fun idea of having them and them doing smth

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Maybe with less impact

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But I think they are quite an interesting mechanic

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I just have a problem with overwrites

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Since they are OP AF right now

granite pasture
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the overwriter actually mitigates the rng factor you are mentioning

light rapids
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One lucky shot and you carry 20 tracks

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Throw through the whole map

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Or mine like there is no tomorrow

light rapids
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Because it just let's you overwrite everything you did until this point

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Imagine ballatro when you can exchange all your cards, jokers etc in one go for most OP cards

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Where sense?

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No sense

granite pasture
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thats called good econ at a shop

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you have to get to the point to roll the shop

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when you hit and get the jokers it feels good

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you miss you use resourses and it feels bad

light rapids
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Or in Isaac

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Yes but you cannot do it infinitely

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You cannot in one single point change everything you have into something else

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That's my point

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Luck in rouge likes is part of the a game

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But

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Adding a luck to get something that allows you to replace everything you did

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It's just luck multipled with luck to change whole run

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And whatever happened until this point

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And as I say, 5 exchanges is still a lot

granite pasture
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but when you get a writer that maes you turn throwing into blank

light rapids
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You can get rid you shitty cartridges

granite pasture
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and prints out a saddle, and a lolipop

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thats the entire point!!

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to make it feel not bad when you get bad cartrages from the vault

light rapids
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What is the point!

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But that how rouge likes work!!! You get shit you get good stuff, you have to live with it and mitigate an issue!!!

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Not feel bad?

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What is this

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Dark Souls?

granite pasture
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the rewriter is there to change the cartrages you get through the run right

light rapids
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That's a luck based system

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You get good stuff and you get bad stuff

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That's how rouge likes work

light rapids
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But not exchange all into something else

granite pasture
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if its strong to do it then youd chose to

light rapids
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That's just unfair

light rapids
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And then I have 20 magnets

granite pasture
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so then

light rapids
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And 2 fps

granite pasture
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nerf the scaling

light rapids
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Why is it better then limit exchanges to 5

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Explain it to me

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Because no one ever explained it to me

granite pasture
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because now

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youre turning it into

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if you dont get good carts early

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you reset the run

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so you can get the good carts

light rapids
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You prefere to be completely stuck at e.g max stack of 10 items

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Then just limit exchanges to 5

granite pasture
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i just think this isnt the good way to fix it

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it slows down the issue

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not stops it

light rapids
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Then provide your way to fix it

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I'm not saying it's the best

granite pasture
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Okay

light rapids
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But I'm saying it is a good change to mitigate an issue of getting one lucky shot

light rapids
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Scailing*

granite pasture
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  1. Limit the nether strat by introducting a different reward so its not always a cartrage. this limits the number of cartrages you get, so you print off less. Also adjust raritys so youn hit less at the overwriting
light rapids
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You will still reset the run

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Because you will still get those same shit cartridges

granite pasture
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the only bad carts are rare tbh

light rapids
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And it will be even more reliant on overwrites

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Because you will need even more same cartridges to be more OP

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So you will need to look for them even more to be able to abuse it

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You just move an issue more towards overwrites

granite pasture
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overwriters jsut arent the issue

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its the number of cartrages and how they scale

light rapids
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And I'm just surprised I don't see anyone making posts about gamba rooms

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That you can roll only 4 times on each

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Bruh, it just makes no sense to me how gamba is fine with 4 rolls each

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But overwrites with limit are bad

light rapids
granite pasture
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it was 6 before

light rapids
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Why not complains about that then

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And I don't think scailing is a good idea since it will just add additional MIT level math to it

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Scailing is always very confusing

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And will be the more cartridges you get

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Then just change base value to make them less valuable

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E.g axe not 20% faster chopping but 5%

granite pasture
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okat so make throwing start at 2m

light rapids
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It's now at 6 base, right?

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Sure, I think 2m is too little

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I would do 6m as it is + every next one gives you .5m

granite pasture
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Thats the idea

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make axe do 20% more

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but then do 10% more per

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or even better make it hyperbolic scaling

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so each one more just does less

light rapids
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And then tell me how many % you have when you have 10 axes

granite pasture
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idk

light rapids
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Exactly

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That's my point

granite pasture
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hyperbolic could make it so you have 100% with 10 axes

light rapids
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You don't know and won't know

light rapids
granite pasture
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there's a wiki the info could be added to

light rapids
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%

granite pasture
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but then

light rapids
granite pasture
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100 axes cant be 200% power

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dont need math to know that at a certian point it becauses less good

light rapids
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Ofc you need math for that

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Because how will you know

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Scale for me having +1 more carrying capacity

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So stack

granite pasture
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stacking is fine

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make the movement speed pentalty more harsh

light rapids
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So it adds .12 more carrying?

granite pasture
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no

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just make it so you get really slow

light rapids
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But then you abuse throw

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To throw fat stacks

granite pasture
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teamwork is fine

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the entire point of the game

light rapids
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Same as train

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Not cartridges

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Soooo

granite pasture
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i just think nerfing it the way you want probably makes the game feel less fun to the casual player

light rapids
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What

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Hwo

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How*

granite pasture
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half the fun of a roguelike is breaking the game sometimes tbh

light rapids
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I still leave a room if you go far enough to get better cartridges

light rapids
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So my solution is then better? XD

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Because if you go far enough and get more overwrites you can overwrite more

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So you can break it more

granite pasture
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if youre trying to fix an issue, i think its targeted at the wrong spot

light rapids
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And with scailing you take this fun out

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You just leave bigger number next to a cartridge you like

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But literally according to your description of rouge like my solution is better because it actually leaves you an opportunity for you to still be able to carry 20 items

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And throw crazy afr

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Far*

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So basically breaking the game

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Your solution means not fun because shit ton of math

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Mostly dynamics between axe/pickaxe and multitool

granite pasture
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yea maybe for the devs

light rapids
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Gl hf calculating that mid run

granite pasture
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why would you

light rapids
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Why would I what

granite pasture
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isnt axe and pickaxe basically capped at 9 anyways?

light rapids
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And?

granite pasture
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you also still have to get a run to the point where you have that many cartrages to break the game

light rapids
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Yes

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But

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It will be way harder to get there

granite pasture
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its already not easy to get there

light rapids
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It literally is

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XD

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People are ending stations before they start

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You can start doing this basically at 4k distance

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It's now enough you get one cartridge overwrite with stack

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Or magnet

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Or throw

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Some axes/pickes and maybe Multitools

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And you finish the station before cooldown hits 0

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One person even showed video of his run where he was doing exactly this

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With even less then max stacks

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Or max throw

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It literally is quite easy if your team doesn't get confused about what to do

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I went with 2 noobs all the way to almost 6k because they had stacks

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3 people

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Nothing else matters

granite pasture
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you crashed at 6k?

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if the problem is cartrages are too powerful you can also cap the cartrages

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which would effectively do the same as your solution

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and make it so you dont get those situations

light rapids
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Sure cap them

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But

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Overwrite limit is still needed in my opinion

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And still don't understand why it's such a big issue

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Bug limited gambling is fine XD

granite pasture
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i just think the issue is there and there will still have to be another adjustmnet if you do this

upper zinc
upper zinc
finite spruce
finite spruce
granite pasture
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i feel like caping the printer at 5 alone probably isnt enough anyways when i think about it more

sweet nest
light rapids
granite pasture
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Yea its a fair start

light rapids
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and this is part of the problem

granite pasture
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I think the biggest issue overall is turning common cartrages into uncommon or rare

light rapids
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don't know what you mean by that fully

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but for sure there is some issue with "randomization" of cartridges

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you can clearly notice cartridge spawn is connected strictly with seed and it defines which cartridges will appear more often and which won't

granite pasture
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Well printers just let any cartrage become any right