Dirty Deals and Deadly Devices

[violet walrus]

@ruby rune it is my understanding that a.) you have rather strong feelings about this, and b.) that Cole entirely deconfirmed the presence of guns according, specifically, to you. Is the latter point about Cole true?

[ruby rune]

Hi @violet walrus. Yes, while change is always a possibility, Cole did announce a deliberate decision at one point for player guns to NOT be a thing, in order to keep player focus on investigation gameplay. And yes, although you didn't ask, I absolutely agree with this decision.

[violet walrus]

Ah. well, if I may debate you, I feel like in, particular, the idea that it's "out of character" for your detective to have a piece is more than a little out of character, considering this is a game where you regularly break into people's houses and rob and/or outright terrorize them, among other comically amoral things, and from a gameplay balance perspective- well, see above.
Having a means to defend yourself against other people with guns doesn't make this any less of a stealth game, you're still fragile, ammo is still exceedingly rare, and it's arguably even more noir than not to have deadly weapons at your disposal

[ruby rune]

I see all those arguments but they are not new. I love noir but this isn't intended to be "the most noir noir simulator ever" - it's intended to be an investigation game and I think you can see that the addition of guns as a problem solving tool gives players the option to NOT play it the way it's meant to be played. I believe that game design should have an strong, intentional gameplay loop and not just throw a bunch of things into a toy box for players to do whatever with.

[violet walrus]

okay, fair (I do disagree about how much it would break things, but I CAN live without it. Mods are a thing)

BUT

[violet walrus]

I do still want the opportunity to end up in the middle of actionized scenarios, and more general gang violence, which in retrospect, would be even more terrifying without any firearms. Imagine just being forced to hide under a table at an information deal gone bad, bullets flying everywhere as everyone dies around you. Coen Brothers shit, essentially.

[teal folio]

one of the developers blog posts highlighted the 'vulnerable' aspect and having to use your environment to survive i think so the normal shoot out between npcs still sounds like it would be a thing

which would definitely be cool (you probably just wouldn't be able to shoot back)

[zinc garnet]

This would be awesome

[violet walrus]

Also, I feel like you can still do action man shit with just your fists and melee weapons (that should be capable of being lethal, why does a knife knock people out). Imagine for the class update, or like, for any gangsters, needing to Evan Wright from hotline miami your way through someone's bodyguards to ask them a question

[teal folio]

yeah unfortunately you still can

a general consensus from people who don't want guns is also that the combat system entirely needs a rework (or at least from all the previous discussions we've had here or on the steam forums)

pain

sneaky edits are my jam.

all praise sentence coherency

[violet walrus]

@ruby rune what does cole (and also yourself) think of having actual organized crime be a bigger, more mechanizeds thing? Gangs or just gang-like corpos? I assume, that since all the implications of these things existing in universe (muggings, assassin emails, shit like that) that you're both all up for it

essentially, this suggestion: https://discord.com/channels/561162895887695883/1141180298781016074

[ruby rune]

I mean sure, I recognize that many people see value in more options for violence in the game. That doesn't change my belief that this would actively devalue the investigation gameplay. To be blunt, "I want things" doesn't mean that a developer has to include them. Personally I think that sex is a much more important and prominent theme in noir than violence is, but I'm not mad that this isn't a game about sex and I think its addition, optional or not, would change the tenor of the game as a whole. Same deal with violence.

[violet walrus]

are you responding to the specific scenario or to the whole concept? Because I get not liking "more violence" as a blanket statement, but I feel like the particular scenarios and actual mechanics I put forward are well thought out and fit the tone

I actually really like the idea of tense deals where you CANNOT shoot back or fight back in particular, and just kind of need to run away or hide while everyone shoots everyone else. It's mysterious, and adds to the core physical combat loop of "hide and survive"

[ruby rune]

"In for a penny, in for a pound" eh? Yes, there is violence in the game already. @teal folio's notes are correct and I am one of the people who thinks that the violence already in the game should be cut back (although I recognize this would be trying to put toothpaste back in the tube). I think it's ridiculous how many citizens in the game carry guns around and it's weak to have so many guns when the player can't have one. My solution is to remove most guns in the game, not add more.

Fun story: I was tailing a suspect (who turned out to be innocent), trying to determine who they knew, where they lived etc. I got a bit too close and they pulled a sniper rifle out of their pocket and shot me down. This person was like a shoe store clerk or something. Very dumb. Well-armed trigger-happy citizens take away from the atmosphere; they don't add to it.

[teal folio]

atm i like that they have guns personally as a bandaid solution, just because i am literally immortal barring a well placed gun shot or if i get stuck

but i would still say the fact i am so unkillable even with them is awful (i always play on the highest damage modifier setting)

[ruby rune]

You're suggesting bespoke, scripted missions where the player is involved in drug deals and so forth? Not crazy about this either. If player gun violence was added to the game I would want it to be systems-driven and fit into the world as a whole, not some weird switch that flips on and off for a single mission type.

[violet walrus]

I just mean something about as scripted as like, the rest of the thief missions.

[teal folio]

when i think of gang related content, i think of the reservations and etc that already exist, or how npcs flag down others in the street to yell at their partner

would open up the chance for drug related cases or hunting down a murderer who only targets x gang, which would probably be painful to make work but cool

walking past an alley where two unimportant npcs are doing a small scale drug deal only to come back later and find one dead, etc etc (as opposed to full on scripted stand offs)

[violet walrus]

crucially, it wouldn't be player gun violence, and also be incredibly unscripted.

[violet walrus]

basically, yeah, with these deal missions just being something that you stand in on