Please make the game playable as a vegan before EA ends.

[digital root]

Hello.

Me and my community of fellow vegans are planning on playing this together and I think it will be really fun.
If possible please make an alternative way for people who do not want to harm others to play the game in its entirety.

EDIT: Here is potential changes that could be made, courtesy of @inland iron

• Leather seems to be the biggest issue for this to be possible, since it's required for most clothing and tools
• I'd propose to implement an alternative way of getting leather. This alternative would also make use of the leatherworking profession, just that the materials required would come from other sources rather than hunting.
  • Obviously something like this would affect balance. Hunting is said to be one of the most tedious professions, so whatever alternative to it is chosen would need to be at least as difficult as hunting.
  • Possible sources could be either foraging or foresting (since tree bark can be used irl to make leather)
  • Some ways to make this path harder in order to balance it with hunting could be:
    • Require buying a special training from a NPC in order to have these recipes available.
    • Instead of going directly from "gathering raw materials -> processing raw materials -> process materials at the leatherwork station", an extra step could be added in order to increase the effort. Something like "gathering raw materials -> processing raw materials -> processing materials at a tailor station -> process materials at the leatherwork station".
      • I say tailor because it makes sense that in order to create a textile material from raw plant materials it would have to pass by a tailor first
      • This increases the number of professions that are required to follow this path (forager/forester + tailor + leatherworker, instead of just hunter + leatherworker), which makes it less appealing to min-maxers, as well as increasing the time and effort it requires

[wild forge]

Unfortunately, this is not physically possible

[sand ether]

Did you mean fortunately?

[wild forge]

No, people should be entitled to their own ways of life

It's just not realistic to expect that way of life to be an option in a game like this with so many complex professions interacting (in ways somewhat based on reality, where animal products are required to get out of the stone age)

[digital root]

I mean I think we would be fine being unable to make some things but from the sounds of it its required in order to maintain an empire's upkeep?

[real vale]

Yes, please. I play that way in many games and things can be limiting when they don't offer alternatives. Don't care about maxing/end game stuff anyway. Unknown yet if there are alt ways around things but, at least in the alpha demo, Scholar needs fish oil to make ink and Tailor needs animal hair to make refined clothes. Disappointing but par for the course so just play around it. On the flip side, it can make things more interesting & challenging. Playing this way in Valheim was fun.

[gleaming kiln]

I’m pretty sure you don’t need leather for empire or settlement upkeep just everything else is intertwined like tools, armor, and housing. You can use any crafted materials like timber or cloth to generate supplies which is the upkeep for a settlement. An empire uses supplies from the settlement in order to produce hex capsules to maintain empire borders.

[digital root]

yeah exactly! as long as we can make it work in some capacity that would be awesome. Were fine with a challenge, it can be kinda fun even.
We will find out how much is possible I guess.

@real vale If you are interested we have a community of fellow vegans that are going to make a vegan empire together.
If you are interested in joining us lmk and I can dm you the server invite 🙂

[real vale]

I'm already in a group (quasi-guild) for this game and invested with them. The folks are nice and I want to help them get started. I've love an invite to your server but it would just be for chat or an occasional in-game visit. I hope the devs get around to adding a "Friends list" so we can find each other in game and chat there as well.

[digital root]

no worries just thought Ide ask.
Yeah a friends list would be dope.

[runic hound]

Reminds me of PETA trying to Ban fishing from Animal Crossing. Its virtual and not reality.

[split drift]

Please devs 🙏 this would be really nice and would make a fun challenge.

[tame sedge]

You might not be able to have an entire vegan society, but you specifically dont have to use virtual animal products

[austere turret]

Please do not do this. Its a video game not a slaughter house for animals.

[thorny delta]

id actually enjoy this as for a roleplaying perspective

[digital root]

it would be nice for example if some tools and like cloth armour didnt require leather.

Like why does cloth clothes require leather?

[digital root]

cant add you, you will have to add me if you want the server

[lone hearth]

maybe you will be able to do that in private modded servers after 1.0 release

[wild forge]

I imagine for belts/reinforcement

the same reason some clothing items required metal (probably for buckles)

the issue with adding an alternative would be that it could make hunting as a profession obsolete if the same result can be made by a farmer or forager

[split drift]

thats the idea haha maybe being able to make vegan leather and such would be interesting

[digital root]

A private server kind of defeats the purpose of a large part of this game, which is empire building and negotiations and stuff.

[whole oar]

Your avatar, what contains bits and bytes eating other bits and bytes... so it's cannibal 😄

[floral junco]

It's an interesting idea, will keep this in mind when adding content updates to the professions in the future.

[cloud pagoda]

is there a way you can do this that isn't... plastic?

[floral junco]

Yeah. Vegan leather is made out of like, cork and fruit parts like leaves and peels

With plastic too

[split drift]

of course o: many v-leather are made with pineapple, apple, cactus, cork, and more of course. polymers are typically used bc it has a wrinkled texture and probably bc its cheaper, but it is not essential

[floral junco]

It's not like, the greatest for the environment... but at least in a video game we don't need to worry about global warming

Cow hide is significantly worse to produce environmentally anyway

[cloud pagoda]

I see... okay!
I wouldn't mind alternate crafting recipes for most things, something like a "backroute in case of emergency"

[wild forge]

you can market this to the strangely large crowd of vegan haters by saying it'll make leather obtainable if they ever have to work on enemy AI again xd

[floral junco]

LOL FACTS

[reef knot]

The vegan idea goes wild here

[quasi marsh]

lmao this should be added, but not seriously

[quick sentinel]

So first of all i looked at your proposition and i can see a few problems arising.

The entire profession system needs to be carefully balanced to make sure each profession has it's place and is as desirable as the others. Otherwise the problem arises where nobody is interested in a certain profession because it just doesn't give enough advantages.

Hunting is already harder then the other gathering professions so leather being more usefull is needed to make it worth going for.

If the devs decide to follow your route, there are 2 ways that i can quickly think off that they could try.

First: Make alternative recipe's that don't use animal products. This will majorly change the balance of the game and make professions much less desirable. It also creates an entirely different problem of having to balance to former to the latter, creating much more work for the devs that could be avoided. Or at worst just ruin the system balance completely.

Second:
Make animal products be less used in major crafts that are needed to play the game.
My question then is, what are these professions gonna be used for then? Making a few professions only usefull for non core gameplay elements creates the same problem as the former, which is game balance, but on a far wider scale. Why will anyone take literal days to level a profession to the higher levels when it doesn't give them anything usefull in return?

In the end, i see this kind of developing direction as a large scale project that puts a majority of the time of the devs into a long balancing loop that is just there for a very small minority of the player base.

How would you change the game and keep everything in a good condition knowing these points?😁

[cerulean nacelle]

I don’t wanna harm even trees. I’ll have dirty work do somebody else and stick to masonry.

[fresh mason]

I actually think an animal friendly route would be a great addition to the game. Just have it as an addition, not replace any current profession or method to obtain resources. Things like trapping animals instead of killing them, maybe even restoring wildlife/ ecology and going a more scientific or veterinary route could add more professions and depth to the game. There are many alternatives to animal products, so it’d be viable to have alternatives. Hunting and like professions would still exist though, and to the games core if that profession/skill doesn’t speak to you then you don’t have to level it. Maybe we could have the option to “specialize” in some professions/ skills which could boost XP gain in some, and grey out others so they don’t visually have our focus or we can’t progress them while having specializations.

[digital root]

You could just make the vegan ingredients harder to obtain or more of them to obtain so that it doesn't affect the balance.

It would be an option, but no one would choose it other than people that wanted to

[heady cypress]

good bait

[reef knot]

Or just make vegan outfit less interesting. or just a skin " Herb eater "

[iron bolt]

Bruh...

[steady oyster]

eat grass

u can survive off of berries and declare war on those who are eating meat

[iron bolt]

go cook berries I guess

we kill goats and let them de spawn for the fun of it

[wooden merlin]

Couldn't you just buy the items that involve harming animals from other players?

The forestry, mining, and farming industries in real life cause the deaths of billions of animals annually, but vegans still live in wooden homes with sheetrock wals and concrete foundations, eat farmed food, wear clothes made from farmed textiles, and drive metal cars on asphalt - all of which are products of those industries which harm animals.

So buying the pickaxe from another player instead of making it yourself because it needs leather seems pretty on point for a vegan playthrough.

[reef knot]

There is vegan and Vegan +1

[formal dagger]

Its a video game with pixel deer not real life

[steady oyster]

if we told vegans that servers are maintained by hamsters running on a wheel. do u think they would be online?

[reef knot]

But this is a reason why I ALWAYS buy Family buckets at kfc, at least they still in family .

[fresh mason]

Yes, you’re correct about the real life products. It is very difficult to avoid. Essentially, I’m not trying to say one way is better than the other, I’m just looking at it from the standpoint of it could enhance the gameplay that’s already there while also being mindful of a smaller audience of players. Because if they do add any cruelty free gameplay loops, all it does is add more content and doesn’t take away anything from those who don’t care for it. Although I think a cruelty free empire would be interesting and the trade, alliance and wars between them all could be fun. It could create additional items, markets, empires, add some depth to warring empires. I’m not vegan, but I’m open to others opinions, and I also love more content and ways to bring the game to life. Having multiple ways to obtain resources or being able to choose to kill or protect wildlife, along with other things, can help make the game feel alive and impactful vs just a grind for the highest number and just slaying mobs.

Imagine if you’re a goat farmer / solo merchant and you have an alliance that wants to buy from you for meat or leather, and you also have another alliance that’s willing to pay to protect the animals or have control over the goat trade. How much coins or resources would it take to influence others. Trade economy and empires, alliances and such can get really in depth if the foundations are there. Depends where the devs want to take the game.

[formal dagger]

This is honestly the most ridiculous things I've seen in a while. How entitled and disconnected from reality you have to be.

Can you not understand that youre actually not hurting anything because its a video game?

Do you actually expect them to made a whole new line of crafting materials because youre vegan?? How about let them focus on aspect of the game that make sense like balance and performance or just more depth of content not just for the 5 vegans in the player base.

[floral junco]

It's a fantasy game. Even if they aren't actually hurting anything, part of a fantasy game world is well, it can be a fantasy. It could be a world where you don't have to hutt anything. Heck I personally don't like playing satisfactory because of its anti-environmentalism in its narrative and design, it's just not a fantasy that appeals to me, even if it isn't real.

I don't see a reason to cast personal judgment of someone's character / grasp on reality for wanting a video game to have fantasy.

[fresh mason]

Regarding the “it’s a game, the animals are virtual” stance: I would assume that it’s triggering to vegans or just simply some players want the choice of what to craft and how to obtain it. Regarding the “cloth vs leather, and picking one over the other”: we already have cloth, plated armour and other options. Many gamers are completionists, hoarders. It’s not always about the why. This would be something down the road, it would be neat to have various items like leather, faux leather, dyed leather, etc for cosmetics and customization. In the end, it just adds more content. Just imo, would like to hear from op or others who have similar mindset. Again, I’m not vegan, I just like the idea of more skills and items and having a variety. It would be nice to have something different than killing mobs for drops - so many mmos do that it’d be nice to see something a lil different.

[teal oxide]

Plus think it like this:
You want the team to spend time addressing this or spend more time with content that gives everyone a more fair chance. I understand the addressing matter, but in the end of the day the game clearly shown a direction. Please allow it to continue flurishing in what people bought the game for

[fresh mason]

We also bought the game, and I bought it with the intention of just playing it. I didn’t buy the game specifically to hack n slash mobs. I do think adding additional skills that benefit everyone (Trapping or Animal Husbandry) would suite everyone no matter their stance on the vegan/ animal cruelty topic.

[teal oxide]

It doesn't suit everyone if time is spend outside of it's scope. More time spend it this idea leads to less time flurishing more content that addresses majority and the spirit of the game

I think husbandry is already spoke about and I am sure trapping will see light some day

[fresh mason]

It doesn’t need to be an upfront “we’re doing xyz because we support vegans and want to provide cruelty free alternatives”. It can simply be a solution to how to add additional content, and meet the needs of a small player base to encourage their continued support and possibly even redefine the mmo genre/ killing mobs loot game loop and adding something new to it.

[teal oxide]

those solutions is still time spend if you understand. Just see it the other way. If I notice the team spending time to target stuff like this, makes me question the direction of where the game wants to be. You cannot please everyone, and you cannot make everyone happy.

You can thought, show leadership and keep pushing what the core fantasy world you created. Like Voxel is talking about

[fresh mason]

Not sure how the devs divvy up their tasks, big mmos often have several small teams that work on various parts of the game (bugs, live game, dev, concepts, art etc) simultaneously.

[formal dagger]

There's literally fighting/siege combat in the game trailer on steam. Its like buying a beer and complaining it has alcohol in it. Sounds like you should have ordered a large choco milky

[teal oxide]

That is why the work should be cooperative and not collaborative. I shouldn't be forced to help you but instead, we should find ways to work together. I feel a request like this forces others.

You already know what the game is about but you want changes that forces things on others

[fresh mason]

Yes but there’s also solo merchants and more laid back things as well. They specifically said you can do only one thing or more.

[formal dagger]

Didn't see anything about a vegan gluten free lifestyle

[teal oxide]

Riflezone is being blunt but what he speaks is truth

[fresh mason]

An extra skill that you can choose to level or not is not forcing anything on you.

[teal oxide]

it is by forcing the devs to missguide their workforce into addressing you

You are free to express but when you start to force your agenda on others it start being a grey area

[fresh mason]

If there is enough interest from a smaller audience it could be something to worth noting. Not forcing the devs, simply saying “hey, have any ideas on how this could work?” I’ve above mentioned that it could add content to the game. I guess I’m just wondering what content you’d like to see devs come out with? Why would additional skills and items be a bad thing?

[teal oxide]

I think the team as a vision or a direction that is stated somewhere

[fresh mason]

Definitely need to see if I can find it, as from the livestreams and vids I watched it seemed a bit more open ended.

Also to add, I definitely don’t think adding alternatives to meat and killing animals would be plausible before EA. This would have to be done afterwards, maybe as content released in years to come. There’s definitely things that should be worked on and released before this, but I do think it would be neat as free dlc if there were more content added to include more varieties, could base it around trapping/ animal husbandry/ farming skill. Could be in a “farming update” in the future perhaps.

[floral junco]

We aren't being forced to read player feedback. It's not misguided or a waste of time to have these things in consideration when looking at future content additions. There is no agenda being forced. They didn't ask us to remove hunting, they suggested if we plan on having alternate ways of gathering items in the future, to keep vegans in mind. I think that is a totally reasonable ask.

[quick sentinel]

Sadly that is abit to easy of an answer to the problem. How hard does it have to be to make it seem balanced? If it's to hard, there will still be complaints by another minority group, should that new minority be listened to aswell or do we ignore them then? If it's to easy then we have the problem i spoke off before. I don't think you've tried leveling hunting yet but i've personally invested myself mostly in it to provide leather to other players. Hunting is not in a great place atm, it's the slowest to level, it's the slowest to find the resources you're looking for and it doesn't have the tracking function every other resource has. The alternative crafting has to be significantly worse because using plants or anything else that's trackable will still be preferable to the non afk method of what hunting is atm.

You could say that making this new way untrackable fixes this, and yes that's right but why do we then have one or two plants or other resources that you can't track? Developers need to think about how a function interacts and fits into the game world they create. Making this system into an after thought and not inherently a part of the system is not something developers normally want.

I would also like to say that even though i'm acting negative on your proposal, i'm not inherently against the idea. I just want to put a light on that it isn't that easy or quick to add such a change without some repercussions. And right now after the game has just entered early acces, i would like the developers to put their time into the core gameplay loop.

[teal oxide]

I think my choice of words as not been the best. I wanted to present comments about how the other side of the argument sees it

I think presenting feedback and their idea is good

[fresh mason]

Just want to add, I do agree with a lot of your points. I would say though that even with hunting as a grind as it is, having an alternative wouldn’t benefit it, it could make resources more easily obtainable which would be preferred, but then it would increase market value of resources in relation to hunting which would make levelling it that much more of a rare commodity. Could be a backwards good thing, though doesn’t make levelling hunter any easier, but the payoff might be better (though hunter drops would need to have their own uses otherwise they’d never be used). Definitely food for thought.

[real vale]

Dev's could add an alternate item, which is Vegan suitable & already in game-no need to create something new nor change existing recipes. If there is concern it will affect crafting/trade flow for others, just make the Vegan version take more resources/time to make & their inefficiently would negate non-Vegans using them while offering a Vegan option.

Some recipes already have an alternate item so they can be made with either A or B to produce same C, more or less efficiently depending on the item chose. Ex. Basic Fertilizer can be made with either fish, berries or flowers.

Start of list which can't be made without using** animals products**. Those playing as Vegan may skip making them & miss out on their benefits, so no T2 tools/resources it seems nor full set of cloth clothes. :-(.

Charged Automata's Heart I
• Refined simple leather - suggest rope

Rough Textile
• Rough animal hair - suggest rough plant fiber or rough cloth strip

Rough Woven Shorts, Shirt & Cap (in the pre-EA demo, I "think" these items were able to be made with only rough cloth, which is currently the case when making the gloves, shoes & belt)
• Rough Leather - perhaps rough textile but that is a no-go as above, so instead suggest change to "wood leather" (basically sawdust/cellulose fibres+resin). In game, this could be represented by using "amber resin" or "pitch" with idea it is applied to the rough cloth to make it more durable & rough leather like

Ferralith Tools & Weapons (all of them)
• Rough Leather - suggest rough cloth strip

Basic Ink
• Fish Oil - suggest basic crop oil (historically, oil in inks are often linseed, walnut, mineral)

@ Comrade - suggest editing your top level post to create a list of recipes we are asking for change/alternate. Also updating that post as new items are discovered & posted in the comments. Keeping this info in one place will save dev's time if they chose to look into this request.

[quick sentinel]

That indeed will depend on what resources will be shared and which ones are unique. But from the post, i believe they want to be able to play the game that way. Which means that any crafting recipe that is essential to your player progression would have to be able to use the alternate recipe. Which is where most of the demand comes from. But it is an interesting take though😁

[wooden merlin]

None of these are even close to balanced.

Example, since this is the most obvious one:

Charged Automata's Heart I
•    Refined simple leather - suggest rope

Refined leather takes:
A bucket of water
A glass vial
2 fish oil
A rare clay drop like braxite
and 5 leather.

And keep in mind all the time it takes to process all of that. Getting the sand for the glass for the vials. The logs for the wood for the bucket etc.

Rope takes 40 plant fiber (You get 100 fiber per single plant root) a minute of crafting, and some processing time in the loom.

[quick sentinel]

I'm not fully against some of these suggestions but of course they need some balancing, i cannot talk about fish oil though because i've not touched fishing even once since i started playing. But i'll go over each one and share my opinion.

Refined simple leather:
If it stays with the Charged Automata's Heart i don't mind it to much. But changing more to all the recipes that are gonna need refined leather is gonna be a problem as it takes away a part of why hunters are needed in the world.

Rough Textile:
Textile is literally the only thing animal hair is used for, changing it will have to change another recipe to include it which also cannot be part of any of the major crafts if it wants to follow your standards

Woven armor:
Every armor set needs 2 materials from two different profession chains. Why should cloth armor be different when it's the one people use the most?

Tools and weapons:
VERY hard disagree on this, tools are a essential craft for everyone, taking it away makes hunters so much weaker and less needed that not many will invest in this profession anymore

[dapper grotto]

You can already eat and cook berries though.

[split drift]

It is a fantasy game as others have stated. In my fantasy i don’t want to hurt animals for personal gain. If I could get around that a play as a peaceful folk i would love that.

Someone posted a picture of a dead nubi goat.. do you think that is a haha funny troll? i’ve killed plenty of animals in the game bc there’s not a viable way around it atm. I understand they are pixels and 1s and 0s but they have an animal likeness and flesh and skin drops. I would never do that IRL bc there are alternatives. Why would alternatives never exist in this universe?
It’s honestly really sad that so many people hate this idea just bc they hate vegans in general. Just tryna play this awesome game in peace and we had a suggestion to make it more enjoyable, not just for us but opening options up for others who also want to RP maybe as a druid or a peaceful folk.

As for suggesting alternatives,
simply making an alt for leather/fish oil seems sufficient from where i’m at in the game. They could be made from fibers, berries, crop oil, some rare drop from any plant mat could be added and used.

The idea is to literally not have to level/use hunting. If it’s obsolete for some people that’s fine no? That’s the point. Either you can play peaceful or not. that’s what we are hoping for, at least having a choice to do either. if you want to min/max you can decide what’s best for you.

[royal lark]

hi yall! ive barely played the game so ive no idea of the cost/worth of most items but i agree with the vegan sentiments. i did notice a lot of items already have many possible ways of being manufactured so adding more is viable. if anything itll add more pathways into the crafting tree and more oportunities for players to specialize while progressing through the game.

there is the issue of balancing the recipes but i think thats easy to fix by just making the recipes really expensive. those who dont want to avoid hurting animals simply wont do them, and people who do want them will obviously still use them. even if theyre 10x as expensive and time-consuming

the oposite could also be done, add more recipes that use animal products, to inscentivize the hunting and fishing etc skills more. again tho, idk enough about the game to suggest specifics

[undone yarrow]

the easiest way to do this is to make an optional "vegan mode" that turns all the animal 3D models into robots/automata, and their components from meat/leather etc. into nuts, bolts, circuits etc.

it would be the same items, just different appearances for those with the mode enabled. that way no rebalancing or redesign of the game is needed. just some models and icons. which is arguably still quite a lot of work, but "simpler" overall.

that said, i can't say i can get behind this being a high priority thing i'm afraid.

[royal lark]

thats not a bad option yeah

one could argue that since the player models are also automata its still kinda non-vegan, but the point of the thread isnt to make the game follow any kind of ethics code, its just to allow the players to avoid references to blood and other animal parts so this would be perfect

[real vale]

You are correct on game balance and I apprciate your example. I wasn't thinking of game balance when posting my off-the-cuff suggested alternatives. Rather I was just giving some real world alternatives - no leather on my rl tools (hammer, axe, saw, hoe, chisel, etc) and I'm not walking around wearing wearing leather pants (YMCA-hehe). I can't see what it takes to make the recipes with animal products as "you haven't discovered this yet", so I am not in a position to compare mats & time/effort. I'll leave that to the Devs, who have quick access to all resources and know the game flow. I'm open to using whatever suitable & balanced alternative is already available in the game. Thanks for your consturctive engagement.

[real vale]

Hi & thanks. Pretty much same reply as sent to other person. Please see: #1386077948204810441 message

[quick sentinel]

I understand your thought process, and yes there will always be some people that will hate on anything that is vegan, or anything that is trans, or any other different opinion on lifestyle or opinions in general. I understand that you lot just want to have some changes done to make the game enjoyable to you like everyone else. Not every change can be easily done though and if the developers listen to what everyone wants then the game will surely not be good or grow better.

My criticism is not meant to be taken personally, i try to give my reasoning about the drawbacks of your idea so that you can possibly take them into account because if i can think of these drawbacks without being a developer, then they can think of this aswell. Using this info you can possibly look into a way to develope your request and give possible ideas that the team can work apon.

I like the idea that Taerdryn just posted, If it's something that you all are okay with it could be a nice suggestion. I also don't know if it will be high priority but it technically is not the most difficult thing to accomplice aslong as the team puts some time and effort into it.

[royal lark]

where did the trans part come from?

[quick sentinel]

Not gonna go into that, just using it as an example of it being in a similar situation as vegan and other stuff

If you want me to change it sure

Am not here to start another drama lol

[undone yarrow]

it's a perfectly valid example, people often hate on that for no reason.

[reef knot]

the vegan subjet goes wild here, you wont change and talk a bit about vampires ?
Imagin if we can be vampires, and drink goats blood.
btw, have someone noticed that night dont exist in the game ?

[undone yarrow]

night does exist.

[reef knot]

wait wha 😮

[undone yarrow]

it's just much shorter than day

[reef knot]

I'm confused now 😐

[quick sentinel]

I think drinking goats blood is not the best idea to pivid to😂

Yeah it does exist, just not that much of a difference i feel like

[royal lark]

the thread is about adding vegan recipes, this is the exact oposite of htat

[reef knot]

I will strike for making night longer, and if we are in a forest, we can hear ~~wolfs ~~ Jakyls.

So no vampire for me, and I guess, I cant be a necromancer too ? have an army of jakyls to clear the land fromm other jakyls

[fresh mason]

Bitcraft’s genre seems more sci-fi than fantasy. Though I do love fantasy magic and spells.

[reef knot]

"magic", I want my wand please !

[manic seal]

can we have Hoverboards as well ?

[lapis dawn]

A magic train would be cool...

[reef knot]

omg ! you just gived me a dream now !
Imagin you make train route betwen empires for trading goods 😮

[digital root]

Please make your own threads for those feedback suggestions.

[reef knot]

xD dont need.
Good luck for your vegan things

[quick sentinel]

Welp the trolls have come

[cloud pagoda]

honestly. the biggest issue I see with this is in balance as someone put it earlier.
hunting sucks and so does leatherworking by relying on hunting.
if vegan options get added, that could solve the issue, but it may make a worse one? simply that, rather than actually fixing the issues with hunting, it's now being replaced with whatever ends up being added. I think addressing hunting sucking for the majority before adding vegan options, (ie, push both in the same update, do one before the other kinda thing 🤷‍♂️ ? idk.) would be good.

[fresh mason]

Makes sense!

[split drift]

Agreed that hunting sucks, but that's not this feedback is about. Thats its own thing that im sure has prio over this. No one said this is even going to be in the game at all. We just hope the team takes this req into consideration

[cloud pagoda]

mostly as a matter of "if you are seriously considering adding this... please focus on this first."

[violet ocean]

Didn't read through the whole chat, but my take on this is:

You can play the game completely without harming animals, but you won't be able to make your own claim (to get an empire) unless you have atleast ONE person doing those tasks.

You can join someone else, and avoid that entirely by letting others do it (just don't ask how the clothes are made)

[fringe crystal]

This is a good current game build argument; Here are the alternatives to 'avoid' the active harming of others. The unfortunate side of this is it points out how the game has no ethical alternative. Even if you buy leather/fish oil from others, that means 'harm was done', thus it doesn't negate the primary argument of 'can we do no or less harm?'.

[cedar musk]

Virtual animals have no feelings.

Kill em all.

[young stag]

make a mod that turns all "animals" into plants, there fixed for you.

[reef knot]

Maybe hunting suck cause we cant track those animals, so we travel the entire sun system to find one ?

[inland iron]

I have been thinking about this and I wanted to share some ideas/approaches that could make this viable and balanced. I'm only getting to t3 right now so i'm probably missing some more advanced stuff.

• Leather seems to be the biggest issue for this to be possible, since it's required for most clothing and tools
• I'd propose to implement an alternative way of getting leather. This alternative would also make use of the leatherworking profession, just that the materials required would come from other sources rather than hunting.
  • Obviously something like this would affect balance. Hunting is said to be one of the most tedious professions, so whatever alternative to it is chosen would need to be at least as difficult as hunting.
  • Possible sources could be either foraging or foresting (since tree bark can be used irl to make leather)
  • Some ways to make this path harder in order to balance it with hunting could be:
    • Require buying a special training from a NPC in order to have these recipes available.
    • Instead of going directly from "gathering raw materials -> processing raw materials -> process materials at the leatherwork station", an extra step could be added in order to increase the effort. Something like "gathering raw materials -> processing raw materials -> processing materials at a tailor station -> process materials at the leatherwork station".
      • I say tailor because it makes sense that in order to create a textile material from raw plant materials it would have to pass by a tailor first
      • This increases the number of professions that are required to follow this path (forager/forester + tailor + leatherworker, instead of just hunter + leatherworker), which makes it less appealing to min-maxers, as well as increasing the time and effort it requires

I believe these points above would give the devs capacity to fine-tune this feature and make it balanced

Fish oil is another minor problem, since it's needed for both the scholar and leather professions, but I believe this would be much more easier to circumvent since fishing is not so intertwined with the other professions. We already have crop oils and tree resins in the game, which historically were used for the same things that fish oil is used here

[reef knot]

I would like to get an ability to catch "wild animals", and then make a farm with them, and when I feed them , I will get animals ( basicly, it's breeding ).
so hunter gameplay should be reworked in a way to trap animals, and catch them.

[teal oxide]

This is an interesting saiga to read

[odd yew]

This..... Has to be a troll right?? XD

The devs have more important things to worry about right now than our sensitive 2025 society right now.

Let them focus on real gameplay and future expansions

We can fine tune our "preferences" later

[royal lark]

noone said that this has to happen right now. its quite literally what you said it should be, a preferencial addition to the game

[mellow ice]

Its just a bit weird to be that pushy about personal beliefs

[royal lark]

how is it pushy

[mellow ice]

asking to rework the whole progression systems of the game to suit your personal beliefs is pushy

i dont care to argue much further than that, if you dont get it fine

[royal lark]

noones asking for an entire rework

just a few alternative recipes to make the progression possible, even if inefficient and time-consuming

[fresh mason]

There’s a message above from Voxel addressing this. Basically, they don’t mind these suggestions and said it didn’t come off as being forced/ pushy.

[odd yew]

The amount of time it would require to to have the devs cater to your personal beliefs in a video game is a bit pushy , I have to agree.

I'm all for broadening mechanics and adding alternative ways to do things but this isn't a super realistic game that really benefits from that amount of change.

But again everyone has their preferences. I just don't think it's fair to try and force them onto other people.

[royal lark]

how is it forcing it on other people

if people dont want to use the extra recipes they wont

[odd yew]

... Cause you're FORCING the devs to code entire sections of the game because you're scared to hurt the pixels on your screen...?

[royal lark]

how are we forcing the devs to do anything. this is a suggestion

[odd yew]

"Make the game playable as vegan"
Is literally the title.
That's a demand
Not a suggestion

[royal lark]

oh is that how it works now

if op added a 'please' to the beginning would it be ok?

wait nvm im stupid there literally is a 'please'

ig neither of us can read 🙃

[odd yew]

I mean.. it does say please xD
I read gud
But if I say
please, give me all your money .
From the bank
Does that mean I'm not robbing it?? 😂

Life hack

[royal lark]

i think its very obvious that the two cases are different.

[odd yew]

I'm down to have all of this implemented, but I think it's a very side bar thing. Development for future profession and long term playability is what I worry about. I want this game to thrive so I would rather see efforts focused that way instead.

IF this does every make it to the game I would happily use the mechanics as alternatives

Cause honestly hunting sucks 😂

[royal lark]

great. like i said alr this isnt a top priority thing, they dont have to add it right away

[fresh mason]

I think in regards to making hunting more accessible and feasible as a profession, this could be looked at as an alternative and perhaps they could work this into being a solution for the current hunting. This is a horrible phrase given the topic, but it’s accurate (I’m sorry - the irony was too good, my apologies to those who may be offended): kill two birds with one stone.

[serene plinth]

i don't think this should be the solution for fixing hunting
this should be an alternative to hunting while still fixing hunting to be not terrible

[odd yew]

Hunting def needs some sort of fix

[mellow ice]

im scared of trees, i think we need a viable path inside this game so i can avoid all trees while still progressing solo

[royal lark]

thats a misleading comparison, noone is afraid of hurting animals ingame

[iron bolt]

Same for me with legit half the codex items hope they can find a way for me to avoid making t1 t2 t3 solvents over and over again

[iron bolt]

can we also make the game in such a way where I don't need to talk to any of the traders? I am very anti social so I feel that would be a worth while addition to the game

[quasi marsh]

This is taken way too seriously

[green schooner]

Vegans lol

[royal lark]

@novel vigil @green schooner if you dont have anything of value to say you dont have to say anything you know

[green schooner]

Why are you so mad. Why do you think a game should conform to your way of thinking. You know if you don't like meat in the game you can eat berry pie. Zzzzz

[royal lark]

me when i dont pay attention

ofc you can play without hurting animals, but you cant make any significant progress

[deep lion]

Just like real life…

[green schooner]

So you don't have a valid argument. Got it. As I said, vegans...

[novel vigil]

no, I think @royal lark is right now that I think about it. I'm also going to give up chess because the knights almost always get kiilled in the mid-game.

[royal lark]

literally, giant thread full od a discussion that you can read

[green schooner]

No. Game doesn't need to conform to zoomer ideology and celebrations of their silly ways. Eat all the plants you.want, but meat is king. Mmm that goat was tasty

[royal lark]

ah thats actually not correct you see, tons of people have been making new alternatives to all sorts of things not just in food but in materials, it really is cool to see
it would also be cool to see it ingame, which is the point of the suggestion. suggestion, not demand

[green schooner]

Like baby poop sausages? That still a thing?

[deep lion]

Ok, name animal alternatives that were in common usage during the medieval era

[royal lark]

whats the ettiquete of pinging mods on this server

im pretty sure youre being disrespectful and a troll rn

[novel vigil]

mods are quite accustomed to being pinged, feel free

[deep lion]

How so, this game feels very medieval survival oriented

[green schooner]

Is the lack of meat making you fallback to calling for a mod as your argument is weak and you cant have a conversation because, you won't win?

[deep lion]

iirc there wasn’t anyone opposed to eating or using animals back then

[green schooner]

Maybe there will be mount food in the future and she can eat the hay

[deep lion]

Don’t need to be insulting about it, just provide logic

[green schooner]

It's not insulting. It's blunt. Hay is dried grass. Hay is vegan no? It's a potential viable option

[royal lark]

youre very clearly trying to rile me up by spamming meat emojis

[mellow ice]

the emojis are pathetic

[green schooner]

I'm sorry you are so emotionally hurt by emojis. I will refrain from my use of delicious meats on your comments.

[deep lion]

Get that knockoff discord client and retexture the emojis

[royal lark]

<@&564286519192584239> im not sure if this is the correct ettiquette in this server but @green schooner is trying to rile me up by spamming meat emojis (am vegan) and insulting me

[deep lion]

<@&564286519192584239> can y’all lock this thread, it’s clear it’s not going anywhere and won’t be productive towards the actual development of bitcraft.

[green schooner]

Oh no. Mum. Dad. Noones insulting you. Just think you asking for veganism in a game is silly. But good try. The reactions to this thread show what the people as a whole think about it

[royal lark]

i like the idea but the point isnt that i dont like seeing them, its that they're using them against me

[royal lark]

the discussion was doing perfectly fine before this

more or less, there were other trolls

[quick temple]

Why is it that any time I get pinged in a thread, it's about Iced

[lament shore]

Behave all of you.