Keystone - Eco-simulator

[strange ocean]

No idea whether it could spawn by itself when conditions are right(shallow water) or it's better built manually.

And if it then despawns when contaminated, causing big trouble downstream

[visual cipher]

Ooh that could work... A building that charges itself with water when its wet and discharges it as irrigation for a while until it is depleted

[quasi lotus]

oh it will work like that one water mod, it has a water tower for irrigation, ( only this one will be smaller)

and will fill itself

hopfully

[visual cipher]

yeah that's interesting

[quasi lotus]

along side the moss damns for badwater filtering :3

[visual cipher]

I've put it on the backlog, I quite like the idea of it.

will save it for after v1.0 though

[quasi lotus]

i love the idea of adding natural utilitys like these, it fits so well into the feel

should find some for badwater too for badfurs,

[visual cipher]

Hmm... They could be these badwater boils on the land that continue spewing badwater even after the original badwater source disappears

That's great

[quasi lotus]

not sure, the whole thing about badfurs is to be hard, we want to make things eazyer, not free ride lol

[visual cipher]

Yeah the balance is completely different with badfurs

harder to get a feel for

[quasi lotus]

could hav sumthing like a block that absorbs badwater and contaminates normal water after as it flows thru it

but even then its hard to balance

and hard to find sumthing that would make sence to be there

would be cool to add coral to deep lakes

both alive and dead versions

speaking of 1.0, i havent had any issues with the newest version, tho my currently map is mostly dry, its hard to get water going

another day and ill probs hav a flooded map with tons of wetlands and forests

[visual cipher]

I'm mostly concerned with crashes, performance, and compatibility with other mods

for this version I mean

[visual cipher]

yeah plenty of potential in the other water biomes besides wetlands

[quasi lotus]

only big mods i dont have atm are whitepaws, seasons, frostwhiskers cus of lag and conflicts

it makes me sad that whitepaws and frostwhiskers wont change how the mod works to make them seprate from all other races

it just feels lazy to me

[junior compass]

lapan did try to improve it by a lot for whitepaws and got it much less problematic now. easily put in two weeks worth of his time going through what changed since he started the faction back in U3?
could have it run with emberpelts and leafcoats somewhat even. still not perfect though. just really time intense and unrewarding task and impossible to catch all possible mod conflicts without user reports really.

really sad he went back to bad habits with frostywhiskers though.. not sure there's much hope for that one haha

[visual cipher]

what bad habits?

[junior compass]

thinking it's still oldschool timberborn and has no multi-faction support basically

that's how whitepaws started: a modified folktails - literally

[visual cipher]

ah 😄

[visual cipher]

v0.6.7.1 now available on mod.io:

• Fixed inconsistencies in perf window tables (count values reported as if they were time based)
• Added some missing perf categories
• Biome overlay now shown above water so it's visible regardless of water display settings
• River flourishes now only spawn when the water is 1 voxel deep (old rule would create it at lower depths as well, which would show them as 'unhealthy'.

https://g-3659.modapi.io/v1/games/3659/mods/6072694/files/7797145/download

I just need to check that it's stable with all currently supported factions (folktails, ironteeth, emberpelts, leaf coats, and whitepaws), then I think it's ready to go to Steam.

[quasi lotus]

my old file says 0.6.7.3 ><

maybe just the way the file is labeled

"keystonev0_6_7-3qml"

[visual cipher]

Yeah thats 0.6.7 with a random string after it

[junior compass]

had no issues testing some with new version on folktails and leafcoats edit the one from earlier today. wow. another one 🙂

no obvious lags either

[nova willow]

On the subject of recovering from droughts/badtides, aside from things like vines growing up dead trees and mushrooms spawning on them, you could also have some dead trees just flat out become alive again. They'd have to be pretty resilient to not get wiped out across the world due to the weather. I'd also like it if trees could decay over time (many, many days in-game, but it would happen eventually) and fall over. Maybe a little animation followed by a mushroom-covered log that turns into nothing? Not sure how that would work, honestly, but so long as you put an on/off button for it nobody would be able to complain about losing trees since they turned that feature on.

[visual cipher]

The main goal being to let Keystone revive dead areas and make them look nice in the meantime?

[nova willow]

Yep. Let the world heal, since that's a large part of what beavers do irl.

[quasi lotus]

i still think that dead trees should randomly revive after a long time with adequate water without re drying or contamination resetting it

maybe you can use the same AI logic to make the peat bogs to collect water

maybe a toggle for trees with water and corruption can fall down and become mushrooms growing from the log

[visual cipher]

I suppose I can simply add a toggle to mod settings for people who dont like it

[visual cipher]

Thats interesting!

[junior crystal]

Oh yeah, just came here to look and had this issue as well.

Do love the mod and what it generally does though, it adds a nice level of dynamic behavior to the map.

[nova willow]

For what it's worth you can turn the mod off, load save, save, restart, turn mod on, and while this will reset all of the biome growth (and delete all non-faction plants) it will fix the save and allow the basic functionality to return.

[junior crystal]

Oh yeah, I already figured that out. 👍

[nova willow]

Fair enough.

[quasi lotus]

sadly the steam version has a couple bugs atm

it should be updated soon

[quasi lotus]

im sorry cows 😭

tada a lake!

<

[visual cipher]

lot of death and destruction around that lake

[quasi lotus]

<

[quasi lotus]

bad tides dothat

[quasi lotus]

im only just now getting bad time automation setup

cycle 15 ><

[visual cipher]

Is this Folktails?

[quasi lotus]

ye

thats a problem .....

the badwater flow is so high it will overflow ><

[visual cipher]

need those moss levees now more than ever

[quasi lotus]

lol

just need to make the pit deeper

[quasi lotus]

if it still overflows i can make a channel for it

[quasi lotus]

i kinda wish the wood workshop from the leafcoats was in the folktails ><

so i didnt hav to cut down the trees

[junior compass]

what could they make logs from instead?

[quasi lotus]

they use the bark from the trees, in the leafcoats

and press it together into logs and planks

[junior compass]

yeah, and collect branches from quick growing willows

so folktails would need both trees?

or collect oak bark?

[quasi lotus]

idk ?

[junior compass]

haha. i'm trying to figure out if it was fun to make such a building for folktails

[quasi lotus]

probs both / replace trees

[quasi lotus]

as far as remaking the building you could probs just copy everything from leafcoats and slap it on the smelter ><

[junior compass]

maybe it would make most sense to them to use branches from birch and bark from oak in that case 🤔

say an oak should give 1 log every 4 days.
so a birch might give 3 twigs per 9 days. an oak 3 bark every 13.5 days. and workshop would make 3 logs out of 3 twigs and 2 barks...
that would be 6 days per tile to get one log.

would a 50% penalty work fine here with you?

[quasi lotus]

idk what leafcoats are anymore, i havent played in a while

[junior compass]

not sure it's too much.. but i kinda feel it not works if fake logs are just as efficient as cutting down trees? or is it?

i could look it up, but iirc they are not very efficient

[quasi lotus]

making fake logs is a lot harder than just cutting the trees, i think thats partly why he added the mood down

its almost time!

the water must flow >;3

the water flows!

i have real power now

[visual cipher]

That's a proper wetland right there

I just uploaded v1.0 to Steam

[worn knot]

is steam going to stay up to date from now on?

(and in sync with mod.io)

[visual cipher]

The big changes are going to come to mod.io first, but I'm not going to build anything new for at least a few days. And bug fixes and so on will be uploaded to Steam directly

Short answer: yes, Steam will be leading for the time being

[worn knot]

just updated, is riparian river-bank?

I've also got double biomes (steam)

[visual cipher]

yeah

[worn knot]

two in one tile?

[visual cipher]

yep

that was always the case, it just wasn't visualized before. This represents a transition from one biome to another

[worn knot]

ah alr

makes sense

[visual cipher]

it means the conditions in that location changed recently

[worn knot]

yeah I clean felled it to plant pines for pine resin

interesting

i can also see underwater biomes without underwater mode on

[quasi lotus]

trees and farms gain bonuses for diverse planting now :3

[worn knot]

did trees not already get it?

might have to shuffle my farm

[quasi lotus]

its better now i think

[worn knot]

oh yea it tells you how much of a bonus from biomes

nice

[quasi lotus]

this is why this mod is amazing

[worn knot]

this mod has definetly changed how I play

I'm far to attached to my wetland

I'm boutta reverse the river

just for that wetland

[quasi lotus]

<

@visual cipher aperently if the wetland is too small or shalow the fish glitrch ><

[visual cipher]

It's funny actually: they can only spawn and swim to places that aren't next to the edge (to keep them from glitching)

And I think what you have there is one isolated tile where that is true, but none of its neighbors do

they should despawn in a second

[quasi lotus]

i think they only despawned cus the tide came in a breafly changed it to a river

[visual cipher]

it's not normally an issue because they also need a large wetland to spawn to begin with. But what you have there is a very large, very thin strip of wetland

[visual cipher]

that's also a trigger for them to despawn, yeah. I'll see if the other despawn reason works correctly

they should also disappear when the water is too shallow

[quasi lotus]

it happened again lol

its just one cingle tile ><

[worn knot]

lmao replatform just crashed my game

[quasi lotus]

o.o

[quasi lotus]

@visual cipher one thing i hope is that we can reuse the dead plants , i hav collected a few

[visual cipher]

How about a 10%/day chance for them to be removed?

[quasi lotus]

3% change per day to replant/regrow?

x3

[worn knot]

Sounds good

[quasi lotus]

idk im still thinking about dead trees too ><

seems your micro plants count as buildings instead of plants

x3

[worn knot]

Yeah they’re weird

Sometimes u can remove with remove building, others mark for removal and they disappear instantly like dead berry bushes

[quasi lotus]

makes it slightly harder to remove cus you need to dodge your paths and buildings

<

the dead plants give a nice color varient, but sadly still ded

[worn knot]

could this be a keystone crash?

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
Timberborn.BlockSystem.BlockObject.AddToServiceAfterLoad () (at <98b0078515fb4ba6a96e7672e035aff7>:0)
Timberborn.BlockSystem.BlockObjectBatchLoader.AddToServices (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] entities) (at <98b0078515fb4ba6a96e7672e035aff7>:0)
Timberborn.BlockAndTerrainLoadValidation.BlockAndTerrainBatchLoader.BatchLoadEntities (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] entities) (at <7b58ff47ff76433389a6379bf03b15c9>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.BatchLoad (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <f221b80c1f084826bf022bac302955c7>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.LoadAndInitialize (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <f221b80c1f084826bf022bac302955c7>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadNonSingletons () (at <f221b80c1f084826bf022bac302955c7>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadNonSingletons () (at <0947737589364218af94e69e72e753c0>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll () (at <0947737589364218af94e69e72e753c0>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <0947737589364218af94e69e72e753c0>:0)

I can't load my latest or second latest saves

[quasi lotus]

got the 2 player file?

[worn knot]

2 player file?

wdym?

[junior compass]

the error report should contain a Player.log . that usually gives a lot more context here

[worn knot]

ah, I'll look for that

[junior compass]

given the message it's about loading spawned entities, so it might be an issue with plants technically. just wont tell more here 🤔

[quasi lotus]

do you hav the original vertical power shaft mod installed?

[worn knot]

I'll have a look, not as far as I know though

[quasi lotus]

it might just be replatform cus of the keystone plants being buildings?

[worn knot]

it doesn't however funny you mention replatform, it caused a crash earlier (user error) and now I'm trying to hop back in

[worn knot]

I don't, is that not just replatform initialising to be able to replace with vertical power shaft?

[junior compass]

i'm wondering about that one corrupting the save too

[quasi lotus]

replatform was what was loading

[worn knot]

i'll disable replatform and try again

[quasi lotus]

i dont use replatform so idk

i just build, then cry when i hav to take it down to fix stuff

[worn knot]

yea i got sick of crying lmao

just loading the save now

nope, same error without replatform

player log (should be the same)

[junior compass]

leaves keystone and more tunnels?

[worn knot]

I'll try w/o keystone

[quasi lotus]

odd, it dont say anything....

do you hav the better crash reporting mod

i cant remember the name

[worn knot]

it loaded without keystone

I have no crash reporting related mods

[junior compass]

More Mod Logs - helpful with many reports

[worn knot]

I'm going to try the mod.io version of keystone

[worn knot]

I'll try with that first

[quasi lotus]

more mod logs is huge when finding errors

[worn knot]

ya, I'll get the logs in a sec

I suspect the update to keystone this morning (10:42 UK time) caused the crash

since steam will have downloaded it

[quasi lotus]

hope it actualy tells us why your crashing tho cus the new version is up to date

[worn knot]

yea this log is gonna have 2 save loads before the real one because i loaded autosaves that had no keystone by accident

[junior compass]

it would help a lot to know if the save can load with older mod.io version

[worn knot]

new log

loading entity singletons failed

[junior compass]

odd it executes Keystone.Mod.Persistence.KeystonePersistence.Load() twice here

[worn knot]

ill make sure i dont have 2 keystones

[quasi lotus]

so whats a singleton lol

[junior compass]

that translates to game trying to load objects on the map (i.e. populate the empty terrain)

[worn knot]

I have exactly 1 keystone, the 1.0.0 from steam

I'll try the mod.io keystone

[quasi lotus]

it might be 1.0 ... im still on 6.7.1

[worn knot]

im grabbing 6.7.1

mod.io and steam have different versions tho

i think they're mostly the same

[quasi lotus]

ye

[visual cipher]

1.0 has minor differences compared to 0.6.7.1, wouldnt explain this

[junior compass]

it couldn't be 1.0 has a conflict with 0.3 saves?

i never tested those

[worn knot]

it worked fine before?

[visual cipher]

I cant rule that out, but it's unlikely

[junior compass]

never had a problem yet with the mod.io versions. not tried new one on steam yet.

[worn knot]

a different crash maybe?

[visual cipher]

The thing is, almost all keystone is written to catch exceptions and report them

[worn knot]

Mod.io crash

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
Timberborn.BlockSystem.BlockObject.AddToServiceAfterLoad () (at <98b0078515fb4ba6a96e7672e035aff7>:0)
Timberborn.BlockSystem.BlockObjectBatchLoader.AddToServices (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] entities) (at <98b0078515fb4ba6a96e7672e035aff7>:0)
Timberborn.BlockAndTerrainLoadValidation.BlockAndTerrainBatchLoader.BatchLoadEntities (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] entities) (at <7b58ff47ff76433389a6379bf03b15c9>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.BatchLoad (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <f221b80c1f084826bf022bac302955c7>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.LoadAndInitialize (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <f221b80c1f084826bf022bac302955c7>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadNonSingletons () (at <f221b80c1f084826bf022bac302955c7>:0)
Mods.MoreModLogs.SingletonSystemPatch.ErrorReporter (System.Action fn) (at C:/Users/Norman/Documents/src/Timberborn-MoreModLogs/Scripts/SingletonSystemPatch.cs:64)
Rethrow as TargetInvocationException: Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadNonSingletons() failed
Mods.MoreModLogs.SingletonSystemPatch.ErrorReporter (System.Action fn) (at C:/Users/Norman/Documents/src/Timberborn-MoreModLogs/Scripts/SingletonSystemPatch.cs:69)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadNonSingletons_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll () (at <0947737589364218af94e69e72e753c0>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <0947737589364218af94e69e72e753c0>:0)

[visual cipher]

I think this is an interaction with another mod

[worn knot]

ill try removing other mods

[quasi lotus]

same error

[junior compass]

possible. it does try to load any entitiy - proven to be one keystone adds - and fails

so it might another mod adding to that component or something

[worn knot]

trying with only keystone and dependencies

[visual cipher]

I have to get my cat to the vet, will look into it in an hour or so

[worn knot]

good excuse for me to revise for my exam ig

crashing without anything else

its still load singletons

[quasi lotus]

hope you and kitty ok

[visual cipher]

Back

[junior compass]

the kitten doing fine?

[visual cipher]

he had been on the receiving end of a bigger cat's wrath

should be fine with some antibiotics

So if I understand correctly, @quasi lotus and @worn knot are both having that nullreferenceexception to do with blockobjects?

[worn knot]

yes, do you need me to test loading a new keystone save?

[visual cipher]

I'll look into the player.log and exception first and see what I can see. It's rather strange, I've saved and loaded the game many times over this week, and that code has barely changed

so that's why I think it might be some other mod making changes to the spects on plants

[quasi lotus]

im on 6.7.1 and havent had a single issue after dumping powered roofs

thatbeaver has been having all the issues

[visual cipher]

Oh I see. Good to know

@worn knot It was working correctly for a while before you got that error, correct? Did you save and load during that time, or only save?

[worn knot]

It worked before I caused a game crash (user error with RePlatform) and after a reload, the save would not load

it loads fine without keystone

The crash may have caused steam to download the update you released at 10:42 UK time though

[visual cipher]

What does RePlatform do?

[worn knot]

Allows you to cut platforms etc

so you could place a 2 tall under a 3 tall and it will make the 3 tall a 1 tall ontop

I tried to cut a platform with an overhang in between and it crashed

[visual cipher]

Were you able to load an older save and continue?

[worn knot]

the autosave before the crash also caused a crash on load

I can try older if needed

[visual cipher]

I think what may have happened is that trying to cut the platform produced an incorrect configuration: the platform intersected with one of Keystone's flourishes

[worn knot]

i don't think that's possible, the flourishes can't be on the same tile as the platform?

[visual cipher]

and then if you try to load the game afterwards, the game invalidates the flourish, the game later tries to report on dropping the flourish, and crashes because my plants don't have a label spec

[visual cipher]

well they can be for the high platforms, not for the low ones

[worn knot]

i had no idea

[visual cipher]

I'm now building a fix that adds the label so that if the game wants to drop the entities, they don't NRE when trying to report about it

[worn knot]

I'll just clarify what I did to cause the crash, since I feel i explained it badly

I had platforms like this

and I tried to cut the platform into a 2 and a 1, so the one is on the overhang

and it crashed

the one being like this

[visual cipher]

I'm guessing it had some rocks or plants of mine underneath

[worn knot]

ig

[visual cipher]

I think I'll have a fix for you in a few mins

[worn knot]

thanks, I'm ready to test it

[visual cipher]

https://g-3659.modapi.io/v1/games/3659/mods/6072694/files/7801339/download

Should (hopefully) fix the NRE at startup in save games with invalid (locations for) Keystone flourishes

[worn knot]

I'll test it

It worked, thanks Shim!

[visual cipher]

Awesome! Glad it worked

Would you mind also sending the player.log of the successful load?

[worn knot]

Sure, let me find it rq

how do I get a player.log for it? the game hasn't crashed, so there's nothing in error reports

[visual cipher]

C:\Users\ [Username]\AppData\LocalLow\Mechanistry\Timberborn

Have to fill in username there

[worn knot]

ya

[visual cipher]

Can you verify that the RePlatform action that you were trying to execute was at (181, 56, 15)?

It's not super important, just double checking

[worn knot]

how would I do that?

can ||devtools|| tell me?

[junior compass]

shift+alt+x can tell

[visual cipher]

if you press alt+shift+X in game, you can hover over the tile and get the position

[worn knot]

👍

[visual cipher]

I need to check which panel shows the info though

[junior compass]

the top-most

[worn knot]

(181, 82, 13)

cursor panel?

[junior compass]

there should be a box on the tile the cursor is pointing to - that's what it shows

[worn knot]

yea ive put the box where I believe the bug was

[visual cipher]

and what is at the coordinate I sent you?

[worn knot]

the given position is halfway back along my blasted channel

it's where dynamite would have been

the block is gone now but the tile above is the given coordinates

so its the block dynamite was ontop of

[visual cipher]

hmm

[worn knot]

could keystone trying to save a bush there have coincided with the crash due to replatform?

[visual cipher]

Hard to say. May be a timing issue

[quasi lotus]

this will still help with any kind of weird glitches with placement in the future

https://tenor.com/view/fennec-fox-boy-kisser-gif-9306731201481158080

cute foxes in the forests/grasslands would be cute :3

like on the border

[junior compass]

i want this cutie in my game

[worn knot]

can I ask what are the conditions required for Riparian?

It's not on all of my river banks

[quasi lotus]

i think its only fast moving water

like waterfalls

could be wrong tho

[worn knot]

I've got riparian between my wetlands and the shore though, and the water pretty much doesn't move at all there

[junior compass]

biomes are 4x4 sized, so it might detect them more easily with better overlap and skip them without?

like if the cliff is on the edge of a chunk, it might not detect them?

[visual cipher]

@junior compass Good point actually! That used to be the case in the old system. But through quite a bit of effort this past week, that's no longer true. The riparian zone is now calculated at a per-tile basis, unlike everything else.

[visual cipher]

If it's working correctly, the riparian zone is only present where the cliff is 1 voxel

[junior compass]

was pondering how to suggest a change and you already did 🙂

[visual cipher]

if the cliff is 2 or more, it doesn't consider it a riparian zone

[worn knot]

I can confirm that's it

[visual cipher]

good idea, but water speed doesn't factor into this (or is not supposed to at least)

[quasi lotus]

see was wrong ><

[quasi lotus]

so its the diffrence between rapids and a waterfall

riparian being fast small drops?

https://giphy.com/gifs/landscape-favorites-X7CPQRdaVt3fG

[junior compass]

more like the waters edge, if its only 1m height difference.
rapids like that would be awesome if the game had them

[quasi lotus]

just looked it up,
"Riparian areas are unique because they are the transition between terrestrial (land) and aquatic (water) ecosystems. In general, riparian areas are along streams, rivers, and other flowing waterways."

basicly shallow rivers?

[junior compass]

it's the shore areas technically, but shallow rivers would count if they rise and fall over time

a very beautiful and unique biome. glad it was added to keystone

[quasi lotus]

https://www.climatehubs.usda.gov/taxonomy/term/390

"Riparian areas are zones of vegetation adjacent to water, such as on floodplains and streambanks. Riparian areas exist across a range of climatic environments and support various communities of vegetation from native plants, grasses, shrubs to trees. Riparian areas are critical water storage areas that enhance local water supply through the infiltration and storage of water. Riparian areas also influence local water quality acting as filters of nutrients, pollutants, and sediments. Riparian vegetation physically protects landscapes by stabilizing streambanks, reducing erosion and storm runoff. As the climate changes, the benefits of riparian vegetation may become increasingly important for species reliant on clean, cold water and shade. Riparian areas are vulnerable to change due to land-use conversion and a warming climate that changes the habitat and distribution of riparian area species, and intensifies stressors such as fire, pests or pathogens."

this one explains it way better

[junior compass]

we have plenty of those around here. wonderful flowers in spring

[quasi lotus]

might be hard to make, but flowers and flower fields would be a nice addition to grasslands or sumthing ❤️

[junior compass]

absolutely! would be a nice addition to riparian too.. long grassy plants and yellow and pink and purple flowers

[quasi lotus]

more things to add to the backlog lol

[visual cipher]

Haha definitely

I think I'll first work on making contaminated areas spawn thorns as decorations

[quasi lotus]

i wish we had a running tracker for all the backloged stuff

[nova willow]

I've found that you can mimic rapids using the rubble pieces. They have bits that tend to poke up above the waterline, and mixing full and half rubble pieces makes for a rapids-like waterway. Has the downside of being unbuildable, but that seems realistic to me.

[junior compass]

imho it's fair to add such aesthetic touches to maps 😉

[visual cipher]

I have wondered whether dynamiting areas shouldn't sporadically spawn rubble as well

[quasi lotus]

we might be able to reuse said rubble "natural damns" when we have the moss damns

[nova willow]

That seems like a whole mod unto itself, honestly. It would be reasonable, but ultimately just tedious since it doesn't really add any mechanics to the game, just makes clearly areas more time consuming.

[visual cipher]

unless maybe they were a way to get dirt earlier in the game?

[nova willow]

Oooh, that would be an awesome addition. Boom -> Rubble -> Dirt

[junior compass]

Olessan is working on one

[quasi lotus]

i think leafcoats have mid game dirt collection stuff?

its a replacement for TnT i think tho

[visual cipher]

makes sense

[quasi lotus]

"keystone - building addons" when lol

i feel like any and all buildings need to be a seprate mod that way keystone will always work no matter the race like it dos now

[nova willow]

Agreed.

[visual cipher]

I agree, no worries 🙂

actually I do quite a few changes specific to faction already right now.

[nova willow]

Say, what do you think about various cactus and joshua trees? For plants that grow in the unwatered areas of the map. Cactus could have sparse berries (like 10% as much as bushes) while taking up the same space and having a lower spawn rate and a much lower growth rate. Joshua Trees/Large Cacti would have a longer growrate than oak trees (maybe even double it) while only being as wood productive as birch. The only advantages they'd have is that they don't need water. Just as a way to spruce up the maps a little.

[junior compass]

we need keystone mods that add new plants

[junior compass]

they should be very sparsely growing. like only 2-3 plants in a 4x4 square

keystone biomes tend to become very dense

[quasi lotus]

agree, we need room for the tumble weeds to roll about

[junior compass]

maybe an occasional cow skull too? or is that too dark?

[quasi lotus]

probs too dark, but then again in the litral opening cutscrean of the game there are bones in the badwater

[junior compass]

whitepaws actually have frozen hooman meats (to feed the big flies with that make glow fluids for the lamps)

glad they not otherwise tell what happens to them

[quasi lotus]

and i sugested adding bones and dead fish in flowing badwater

[junior compass]

i'm always in for such a nice atmosphere

[quasi lotus]

well i would like keystone to have a small darkside because we have badfur beavers now

[nova willow]

I was thinking even sparser. Like, when a cactus or j-tree spawns it blocks future spawning for others within 3 blocks of itself. That, coupled with the very slow growth rate, should prevent them from becoming too all consuming.

[quasi lotus]

there are natrual groups of cacti tho, so

[junior compass]

yeah, makes sense for them.
i like a darker side for balance alone already. there's mostly just benefits right now and dry or contaminated areas aren't using any of their potential really

[quasi lotus]

cacti with berrys would be cool for badfurs

and maybe could make cacti flower tea ><

[junior compass]

could be a halfway thing between tree and thorns too. less annoying / more diverse

[nova willow]

Can't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. That said, those could be non-blocking plants (like the little rocks and reeds that exist already) which just add a bit of flavor and spawn within 1-2 blocks of an existing desert plant.

[junior compass]

if it is harvestable or cuttable it must be blocking

[visual cipher]

About the density of plants from Keystone: there is a slight performance penalty from checking plant proximity when I spawn something, which is the main reason I haven't done it so far. But at the same time, spamming the map with plants certainly has a performance penalty as well. Not to mention it can simply be annoying. On the other hand I felt like, if grasslands naturally evolve into forests, there is something kinda cool about that. So my question is: should I add a rule to limit spawning of plants/trees in an area?

[nova willow]

I mean that the main plant - berry cactus, tall cactus, and j-tree - would be an interactable plant and then they'd spawn a few non-interactable plants that don't block buildings and exist solely for decoration.

[quasi lotus]

only in specific biomes i think, like the dry areas, if corrupted or watered then it would turn off the limit

kinda like how the fish work

[nova willow]

Some mechanism to have non-blocking plants spawn around blocking plants would probably be just as good? Like, instead of every single non-blocking plant becoming a tree, bush, or reeds or whatever, some of them just... decorate. They look pretty and add atmosphere but don't block buildings or anything, but they do prevent 'real' plants from growing there?

[junior compass]

that's a tought one. i'd say grassland in recent versions felt difficult being essentially either only berries or turning into forest quickly.
having it 20-40% sparse might give a nicer visual effect maybe. and cut the annoyance to clear it too

similar with the mangrove-only wetlands

[nova willow]

Like, just tall grass. It doesn't block roads, buildings, ext, but it does prevent other plants from growing.

[junior compass]

should not turn monoculture imho

[visual cipher]

myeah.. the trees are nice and useful at least

and having an entire field of dandelions is annoying to me too, I must admit

[quasi lotus]

untill you need to build there

lol

[junior compass]

or have more than enough tree farms..

[visual cipher]

better to let grasslands just be grasslands?

[junior compass]

nothing against sparse trees in it really.

[visual cipher]

I mean, there is already a mod setting for it. You can turn off the spawns whenever you want.

[junior compass]

just had clusters for 4-6 chestnuts, birches and such all over them

[quasi lotus]

grasslands need grasslands but small things like bushes or flowers scattered around would be a nice touch

[junior compass]

and if i cut trees it went pure-berries quickly

[quasi lotus]

basicly same thing with the dry desserts

[nova willow]

Decor-only stuff that doesn't block buildings but does block real plants would probably be optimal, if that can even be implemented?

[visual cipher]

that should be RNG at work. I've put the spawn percentage at like 0.05 percent per day, I'm surprised it keeps filling up this quickly.

[junior compass]

i believe this mostly calls for a spawn / reproduce blocking decorative plant

reproduction of berries is about 1-3 per cycle

[quasi lotus]

theres a lot of that already, the issue i think is half of it turns into real items

[visual cipher]

yeah, that's a good point

[nova willow]

Did you factor in that all existing plants will spread on their own, regardless of the biomes? Like, having sparse spawning trees is great, but those trees make baby trees and suddenly you have a forest.

[visual cipher]

I suppose I didn't

[junior compass]

it can. i worked with the reproduction some to make plants spawn vertically and there's easily patched in logic to block it

[quasi lotus]

i think this is probs the biggest issue, once a tree or bush is spawned randomly it spreads like wildfire

[junior compass]

yeah, and the spawn logic puts them with all free tiles around - which makes it much more likely

[quasi lotus]

so maybe keystone needs to cut the base game baby plant chance

[nova willow]

I used to plant a handful of trees over an area and let them spread to create forests, so yeah, the default spawn system will swiftly fill out every open space. A simple fix, if possible, would be the 'fake' plants that don't block buildings but do block plant spawns.

[quasi lotus]

as it already makes new plants

[junior compass]

or block it with decorative plants (some of them)

[quasi lotus]

lowering the speading of bushes and trees would allow keystone plants to block them natraly

the issue is the base game spead is too fast atm

[visual cipher]

I'm quite reluctant to alter vanilla mechanics too much, but I do agree that just tuning the native spawn rates down should be an acceptable measure

[nova willow]

Could it be made a slider or toggle?

[visual cipher]

yes, certainly

[quasi lotus]

more toggle or sliders lol

[nova willow]

(Woops, didn't mean to quote anyone there xD)

"When in doubt, slide it out." xD

[quasi lotus]

lol

[visual cipher]

That's the spirit 🙂

[quasi lotus]

could add a popup on new game launch and loading into a old save telling players about the change

you already have the one about a old save new mod

[visual cipher]

I'm going to migrate to github and set up a work item board tonight by the way. Then you can all add backlog items there.

Not to mention the project will be open source

[visual cipher]

Are you referring to the keystone popup? I didn't know if anyone had spotted that one yet. It's just supposed to show when there's a problem 🙂

[quasi lotus]

theres one that shows up when you load keystone onto an old save that didnt have it b4

says how it needs time to load the biomes or sumthing

[visual cipher]

Ah okay. I'll have to tweak that, it wasn't really supposed to show out of dev mode.

Don't want to spam people

[quasi lotus]

i think it should stay, it tells the players exactly whats gona happen and why nothing is showing

and it only shows up once

unless you unload and save again

if you have keystone loaded in the save it never shows, but if you load keystone into a save that didnt have it, it pops up

[nova willow]

I agree with Mishka on this one, keep that specific popup. It was very informative the first time I booted up an existing save with Keystone.

[visual cipher]

ok cool

[quasi lotus]

its the only one i have seen other than when you remove keystone the game says a bunch of things are deleted

gettings pictures

:3

this one shows when you remove keystone

[worn knot]

That's just a default panel but yea

[nova willow]

I got that one too, it scared me for a few moments xD

[quasi lotus]

its a lot of things removed lol

[visual cipher]

Yeah that one is vanilla

[quasi lotus]

my game takes so long to load 😭

but alas thats what happens when you have like 90 mods

this one, should stay,

maybe remove the 2nd half but it saying it needs to build the ecology from scratch is huge for understanding

and you can add the "keystone changes the spread rate of trees and bushes" (or whatever) to that popup too telling them they can change it in the mod settings

but on an existing save it takes a long time before you start seeing plants

its at minimum like 6 days

[visual cipher]

Yeah, second half should go for sure.

And I did consider putting together a little tutorial window with some instructions and what to expect

[quasi lotus]

but adding a popup to a brand new save saying it changes the tree rates, and or what to exspect from keystone/ i feel should be a thing too, but like this one, after that first one it dont show up again

[visual cipher]

yeah, can do

[visual cipher]

The repo is up
https://github.com/everboom/timberbornkeystone/

[visual cipher]

Actually, apparently the preferred way to do the backlog is that you guys can post Discussions as 'Ideas' and then you can vote on them directly as well.. so that's perfect i guess

I thought I needed to add you as users, but i guess that's not actually the case.

Now all I need to do is figure out how to turn that on 🙂

Ok should be up. So you guys can create a 'Idea' from the discussions page and then others can react to it and vote on it.

[quasi lotus]

only downside is i hav to be logged in ><

[quasi lotus]

ok i voted and left comments on basicly everything

❤️

[visual cipher]

Amazing, thank you!

[quasi lotus]

i hope we can get more imput on all the ideas and maybe new ones

[visual cipher]

Two changes coming up: vanilla tree reproduction scaled down to just 5%, but changeable via mod settings. And forest biome now requires 25% mature trees to be fully effective. An area with seedlings only counts as grassland.

[visual cipher]

Two more features done: 10% chance of dead flourishes to be removed from the map per day. And a preview of random plant and tree planting marker tools based on an existing mod, Forest Tools. Pending while I discuss with the author of that mod how to credit him for his work.