Leafcoats - New faction (Early Access)

[torpid patrol]

hmmm

you mean total?

I haven't counted, but should be on par with other factions

[signal fulcrum]

d'acc

I'll have to choose a map for my first game with this faction.

[torpid patrol]

It's still gonna be a while before I have anything playable.

[torpid patrol]

And that should be all the prefab editing for these 2 buildings

Yeah, it took 40 mins just to edit the prefabs.

[torpid patrol]

and then another 20 mins crash on start and fixing bugs.

still not finished, I forgot a few things

Centering the windows better.

hmmm

what if I use different style windows...

[desert rover]

Nice!

[torpid patrol]

just thinking these would zigzag nicely.

and of course you can put branches in them

And this is what I meant by zig zag

so how many haulers and builders in each?

if you assume the default hauling post is 2 stories internally, that's an internal space of about 12 blocks, where the builders hut is more like 6.

these are more like 10 and 8

so the hauling post is slightly smaller, and the builders hut slightly bigger.

and the district center 12.

[earnest coral]

when I first saw this I thought you would use that as an alternative to houses for some reason

[hasty kettle]

love your progress

when i see you working and posting i always want to go on and build one more new map myself 😄

[torpid patrol]

😛

I'm not sure I'll achieve my target of finishing this faction in another 5 weeks.

I'm making good progress though

[hasty kettle]

when you see you are waiting for something cool .. me personally i am fine with the take "its done when its done" 😉

[torpid patrol]

:3

[hasty kettle]

so take your time

[torpid patrol]

I really need to plan the food chain.

so according to my notes.

No Farmhouse.

Blueberry bushes
strawberry bushes
Raspberry/Blackberry plants (brambles)
Dandelions.

Grape vines.

Chestnut, Apple, Mangrove trees.
Orange trees.
Also Maple.

that's what my notes say.

I think I'm missing a few here.

[hasty kettle]

you wanna have some sort of bee hive? maybe a worm farm or something

[torpid patrol]

Probably just give them the FT Beehive.

I know it might not be that popular, but sometimes you just want to re-use what already exists.

[torpid patrol]

anyway. I think I was also going to do hydroponics.

what plants would be in the hydroponics?

[glad oriole]

Hydroponic gardens generally grow leafy greens and herbs, so... IDK if that fits the faction that well

mushrooms maybe

since what we often refer to as the mushroom, the stalk and cap, is actually basically the fruit, and the main body of the fungus - the mycelium - is often left alive when you harvest the stalk and cap.

so keeping the IT mushrooms, and maybe adding tomatoes (which I've seen referenced in hydroponics as well, and they don't die when you pick the fruit - they're just treated as annuals bc they don't survive winters well, but that's not an issue in an indoor hydroponic garden)

Also, beehives could produce honey

Also, beavers eat bark, and some trees shed bark naturally, including birch (finally, birch can be useful), so maybe you could have birch trees produce bark for the beavers to harvest periodically (like 2 pieces of bark every 5 days or smth, using the same script as mangroves and other fruiting trees).

Now, for processing:
The 3~4 kinds of berries could be eaten raw, or put in the press to make a few kinds of jam (I'm thinking blueberry, strawberry, and mixed berry using all the types). Jam can't be eaten directly, but can be put on bark to make sandwiches.
Tomatos can be eaten raw or turned into juice, same as in emberpelts
Mushrooms get fermented, same as in IT, but can also be sun-dried to be put into trail mix alongside raisins and chestnuts
Maple syrup + apples = glazed apples
Honey + chestnuts = candied nuts
Honey + dried orange slices = candied oranges
Grapes could be the super-versatile food for the faction:

They can be eaten raw
They could go in the juice press to make grape juice, which can be drunk directly to satisfy thirst and give a wellbeing bonus, or put in a fermenter to make wine (which is used to give visitors to a bar a wellbeing bonus, doesn't sate hunger or thirst)
They can be sun-dried to make raisins, which can then be put with dried Mushrooms and chestnuts to make trail mix

So the buildings:
Press (jams and juices)
Fermenter (mushrooms, juice->wine)
Sun Drying Station (mushrooms, grapes, orange slices)
Meal Packer (sandwiches, trail mix, candied nuts/oranges, glazed apples)

[hasty kettle]

the AI gave me this good structured answer:
Leafy Greens:
Lettuce (various varieties such as Lollo Rosso, Oakleaf)
Spinach
Arugula
Swiss Chard
Kale

Herbs:
Basil
Parsley
Cilantro
Chives
Mint

Fruit Vegetables:
Tomatoes (especially cherry tomatoes)
Cucumbers
Peppers
Chili Peppers

Microgreens:
Cress
Radish Microgreens
Mustard Microgreens

Other:
Strawberries
Beans (in smaller systems)
Zucchini (in larger systems)

[torpid patrol]

not sure how many of those plants would be appropriate for leafcoats.

[hasty kettle]

enough to choose from whatever fits best

[torpid patrol]

also, Tomatoes, Peppers, Radish... Sounds like Emberpelts

[torpid patrol]

Levees

unfortunately the way combinable works, it specifically filters to the same object, so it can't merge with others like the curved levee

[torpid patrol]

getting there

[torpid patrol]

.> still getting there

[torpid patrol]

the transforms are weird, it's like if you tell it to rotate left, it rotates right.

so I'm basically writing custom rotation code.

[torpid patrol]

I think I've finally figured it out

It's kind of embarrassing that it took this long to do this

[torpid patrol]

anyway, now that I've written the script, I could include the Sluice in this

[torpid patrol]

The script is designed for 1x1x1 entities, but I might be able to force it to work with a 1x2x1, since that extra tile doesn't do much

I could do vertical stacking too, but I think it would look better if I don't.

the curved levee is functional.

the down side...

[desert rover]

erf. yeah.

[torpid patrol]

I mean, I can live with it

[hasty kettle]

looks cool

[worn ivy]

Going the antidote route?

[torpid patrol]

Yes

they'll probably use dandelions for more than just antidote.

[frank vapor]

Dandelion Tea?

I hear that is a thing people make

[torpid patrol]

not sure what yet.

[frank vapor]

Just tossing a suggestion in the hat, I guess

[torpid patrol]

So I want a Fermenter, Gristmill, Bee hive... not sure what else.

kinda leaning iron teeth a lot here, as their food processing buildings don't use fire.

Could go with the press too, but I don't want to do the juices again

and the food factory. It's a fairly simple solution to have a generic food processing building to make finished food products.

[frank vapor]

Oh, yeah I guess with Tea there would need to be fire or it'd have to be cold-brew

make a large batch but it takes 16 hours

[desert rover]

mead time

[torpid patrol]

Mead!

[viscid zinc]

Sun tea. Made by leaving it out in the sun. We do it here sometimes on the kitchen window sill. Could require hours of processing like growing algae or mushrooms to indicate the brewing time during daylight hours.

[viscid zinc]

Would it be possible to rotate the sluice along the X axis and face the teeth downward?

Is it possible to rewrite the sluice blue bar code to measure directly beneath/perpendicular to this new type of sluice instead of the plane parallel with the bottom of the sluice. This way you could drip feed downward or fill from a suspended tank like water dripping off of leaves instead of having the sluice flow out the side.

Dunno if it would be practical unless it could be built with only side support/without bottom support.

[frank vapor]

The fun thing with vertical sluice, is that the game reads water in columns. So if you open a sluice between two independent columns of water they become one and things would behave weird.
The way to handle this (From what I remember of the conversation about it) would be to have the Sluice behave more like the Mechanical Fluid Pumps instead of an open channel like it does now.

[worn ivy]

It's not a problem when moving upward, but it is absolutely a problem when moving down.

Basically, because the columns merge, the water would be instantly teleported downward, which gives no time for control. Instead, what you want is a "controlled leak," which is essentially a pump without power requirements.

Going upward on the other hand, you could theoretically shut it on and off just like a sluice, but you'd have to strictly require that the water in the lower section be in contact with the roof.
In reality, faking it by making it a pump would probably be better here as well.

Of course, that requires someone to actually make it first.

[signal fulcrum]

yes finally connected textures.

[torpid patrol]

one existed already, but it only did the same object, on all 4 sides (or all 6 if you use the tube version)

but I not only wanted one that merges with other items (Levee to Curved Levee) but only on some sides (Curved Levee only has 2 of 4 connectable sides), and since the curved levee isn't rotationally symmetrical, needs to not rotate some items to find matching merges.

Yeah, so I wrote my own, and it took most of the day to get working right.

[worn ivy]

Oh, did you check if the levee is merged vertically?

[torpid patrol]

I decided to not do that.

[worn ivy]

So it will be striped then.

[torpid patrol]

I could have done that, but then what if you put a curved levee on top of a normal levee? it wouldn't look right

[signal fulcrum]

Are you going to make a separate mod for all factions?

[torpid patrol]

of the levee?

I guess I could.

[torpid patrol]

Looks like adding Bark as a gatherable to Birch isn't something that could easily be doable.

[worn ivy]

Would it be easier to create a new tree that is identical to birch, but isn't under common?
Then just leave the original birch out?

[torpid patrol]

no.

If you remove birch from common, then it's not in the map editor anymore

if you migrate from birch to "birch but not birch with harvestable bark", the game crashes because the savegame information doesn't have an inventory.

You'd have to create a new tree that gives bark.

You could replace for example, Berry bushes (or Pine) to give Bark INSTEAD of Berries (or resin), but then the first time you harvest them, they'd still have Berries/Resin.

or if you swap Birch and Oak for example, you'd chop down a birch tree and get 8 logs, or chop down an oak tree and get 1 log. until you plant more, then they'd work normally.

but yeah, I can just add more types of tree or bush that you can plant to get Bark.

[torpid patrol]

The hard part is getting them to actually work.

I don't think I'll be able to do it.

Second attempt

(Well, more tries, but, second stratagy)

Way are Crops in the Uncuttable category >.>

[earnest coral]

How do they work? will you be able to gather different resources from same object? like leaves and bark from pine tree with different buildings for different resource?

[torpid patrol]

nah, you can't do that unfortunately. not without significant script changes.

Plus it messes with Inventory stuff, and that's nightmare code, I don't even fully understand how inventories are created in the first place.

[serene elm]

one way would be instead of resin it can spawn bark on some tree type

[torpid patrol]

then there's the GUI elements that you'd need to play with

[torpid patrol]

The short rule is:
1 resource when you gather from a plant
1 resource when you cut down a plant.

If the plant already exists, you can't change it. (So you can't add a gatherable to birch)

[earnest coral]

unfortunate

[serene elm]

replace the birch with your own version? named birsh but under the hud its birch_LC? 😉

[torpid patrol]

Bark Exists!
They gathered it!
(That Tree is named the NotBirch)

[torpid patrol]

I was talking to Lapan. If you do the migration thing to replace Birch with your own thing that has a Gatherable, Game crashes.

I tried myself, it's true, game crashes.

[serene elm]

[earnest coral]

possible to add behaviors to buidings instead somehow? sorry for weird questions

[torpid patrol]

You can replace Pine with something else that has a gatherable other than resin and it would work fine, but I think I want Resin.

Branches + Bark + Resin = Logs.
Branches + Resin (and more time) = Planks.

New building so you don't have to chop down trees. (you'll still have to early on)

[torpid patrol]

Well, that's what I was working on there, A new Flag and Gatherable category.

Or do you mean some completely new logic?

I've done New logic before, but Gathering resources is already pretty special (Spaghetti)

I made things like the Tubeway Bridges. That uses a crazy amount of new logic

[earnest coral]

Yes, I was thinking gaining resource from building somehow instead plant to not mess with existing assets.

spaghetti does not sound fun in this context though

[torpid patrol]

I mean, the Hydroponic Garden is just a manufactory, it runs a Recipe to create something from water.

[earnest coral]

guess would work, but lose gathering aspect. other idea gather from invisible plant growing on top of birch. but highly doubt you can stack items in the game.

[torpid patrol]

if they occupy the same blockobject occupation... no.

[signal fulcrum]

How do you draw this type of icon?

[torpid patrol]

Literally just drew it.

I use paint shop pro 8 art software, so I just went on vector freehand mode and drew that fairly random squiggle, then duplicated it and shifted down 3 pixels to do the black shadow.

[torpid patrol]

Unfortunately if I try and do the trick to let you walk on top of it, then you can't harvest it.

Okay, so, these collectable dirt blocks have to be collected from the side. Which means it's basically impossible to dig down.

[worn ivy]

Could you detect birch trees while loading, delete them, and replace them with NotBirch trees of the same level of growth?
Perhaps have the game register birch but hide it as a dev-only tool?

[torpid patrol]

.... Possibly...

[signal fulcrum]

on a transparent layer

[signal fulcrum]

This flag makes more sense than a simple button. Will it give the rocks a resource?

easy land at the start of the game.

[torpid patrol]

yes

[torpid patrol]

Dirt, but, could add rocks

[torpid patrol]

So... I think I'll keep this dirt flag, but have 2 versions of the digging thing.

Instead of dynamite, you have something that's more like a tunnel, so when you build it, the terrain tile transforms into the dirt block, then you have to excavate it (from the side)

But I'll try and do another version that also costs extract and just deletes it.

Now, the question is... if you just delete it, does everything on top collapse?

Let's hope so.

There may be a reason why tunnels place an object that can support other blocks.

[torpid patrol]

so...
Tunnel can't do anything except place a BUILDING when it blows up.

So I'm writing a custom script that can place a "Block Object", or nothing at all.

[torpid patrol]

Use the one that deletes terrain and build a ladder or staircase in there, and build the other one to add the "Blockages" around it to harvest them for dirt

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, I don't have the energy to do more today.

[torpid patrol]

So the dirt collector works, but there's 3 main problems with it.

1. Ruins use special logic, both for drawing graphics and changing the height. These things have both, if you look carefully you'll see metal from the ruins sticking out of the dirt, though overall a minor issue.
2. They can only be harvested from the side, not from above, like the ruins.
3. If I try to add nav mesh so beavers can walk on it, it can't be harvested.

Also with testing there's the minor issue that when you do fully harvest it, anything on top isn't destroyed (So layers of them are bad), and beavers cant stand on them(block object nav mesh would fix this), so when you convert terrain into them, beavers standing on that terrain block fall in. (I guess it's better than being blown up)

I'm going to try and clone and edit the Ruins script to solve some of these issues.
Assuming I can get a working clone (Might not work with how the inventory stuff works, we'll see), #1 should be an easy fix(the graphics thing is a decorator, so just don't include it, problem solved), #2 might be doable too. I'm not sure what's causing #3 so would be the hardest to solve.

As for the issue of things on top... I'll just make it so objects on top get deleted when the block "Explodes".

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, that didn't go well. Pretty sure the clone didn't have an inventory.

And every attempt to edit it to be able to be harvested from above has also failed.

[viscid zinc]

Ruins are only harvestable from the space they occupy, which typically is shown as a beaver standing on the same level next to it. They cannot be harvested from above and can't be harvested from the side if there isn't a clear path to the base of the ruin.

[worn ivy]

He's trying to create an alternate version of the script for harvesting ruins so that he has a version that doesn't require that.

[viscid zinc]

I went back and reread what he wrote. I misinterpreted the commas. My fault!

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, it's a tough one to solve.

[torpid patrol]

I can't stick around on one problem too long, I've spent enough time on digable dirt, so, moving over to something new

I'll probably just have to put a warning in the game though.
"Converts a Terrain block into Loose dirt.
WARNING: Loose Dirt can only be collected from the side, on the same level!"

then with the extra cost of Extract (because no explosives) it deletes the terrain tile, instead of converting it to dirt.

[torpid patrol]

but I'm looking at this zipline station and thinking... why does it have to be so huge?

[tender turret]

i had no luck downsizing it in prefab during experimental

with a couple different model concepts

even kept the heights of the everything the same, so no functionality could've been possibly lost from how they do the zipline navigation

my last attempt was cutting off the sides that don't have any prefab/script purpose, and moving the center two blocks over. wouldn't work

[nimble orchid]

Some concept art I made of this a while back, I figured it wouldn't fit with any eixsting faction so I think this would be a good idea for a new one

[torpid patrol]

oh, pneumatic tubes

[worn ivy]

Oh, you got the mini-stations working!

[signal fulcrum]

I want to play it on it.🥰 🥰 🥰 🥰 🥰

[torpid patrol]

all in good time.

[torpid patrol]

Yeah.

There's just so many scripts added to zipline stations, and it's easy to get confused because some of them are Z is vertical, and some are Y is vertical

I basically just took the normal station, looked for X and subtracted 1 from it, then looked for values above 2 (like 3, 3.85 etc) and subtracted 2 from them.

[torpid patrol]

also, I dislike how the ziplines can only have 2 connections.

I'm torn between keeping it as 2 the same as folktails (which in theory does make sense, as that's what you'd have IRL) or going up to 3 connections.

you can set it per object, so for example, could have stations only have 2 connections, where Pilons and beams have 3, or vica verca.

[tender turret]

I think tubeways had Z as two different axis in the same script

That felt like being gaslit

[torpid patrol]

It's just really confusing because the devs use Z as vertical, but Unity's default is Y as vertical. So if you have both Z and Y as vertical in the same script, it's likely that some are referencing how the devs want to reference it (Z), and how Unity wants you to reference it (Y)

[worn ivy]

I personally think that the mini-stations shouldn't have more than 2 connections.
The large ones... Would it be possible to add a second wheel and have connections 3 & 4 use the second wheel?
That would give players an actual incentive to use both.

[torpid patrol]

nah, can't really add more than 1 wheel, because the wheel has several scripts attached to it. They're also Spec scripts, which means they have a parent script (usually with the same name minus the spec) that looks for a spec script.

adding more than 1 wheel means more than 1 spec script, but the parent script just looks for A Spec, which means even if you added multiple, only 1 would be used.

[glad oriole]

could have the zipline stations not be a thing, and just have the "station" be zipline beams coming out of trees/off of branches.

[torpid patrol]

I was thinking to have both. I've been considering adding the "Beam" in the tree you mentioned. but it's... I mean... I can't stop you placing it outside of a tree side, and it would look really weird if you do.

[torpid patrol]

going back to this.

I've done a deeper dive into how things work.

The reason why you can't harvest dirt from above is down to this function here.
(It's from InRangeYielders in Timberborn.Yielding.dll)

    {
      if (!this._dirty)
        return;
      this._yieldersInRange.Clear();
      foreach (Vector3Int coordinates in this._buildingTerrainRange.GetRange())
      {
        BlockObject bottomObjectAt = this._blockService.GetBottomObjectAt(coordinates);
        Yielder yielder;
        if (this._yielderRetriever.TryGetYielder((BaseComponent) bottomObjectAt, out yielder))
        {
          EntityComponent componentFast = bottomObjectAt.GetComponentFast<EntityComponent>();
          if (componentFast != null && componentFast.Initialized && this.IsAllowed(yielder))
            this._yieldersInRange.Add(yielder);
        }
      }
      this._dirty = false;
      if (!postEvent)
        return;
      this.InvokeYieldersChanged();
    }

The key part is it can only "See" harvestable objects that you can walk through, inside the nav range (from the doorstop of your flag/farmhouse)

It's specifically looking for Objects that occupy "Bottom" in the block occupation, so, it can't see objects that you can't walk through, and can't see "Over the edge" to see an object below that is accessible from above.

so if I did want dirt to be accessible from above, I'd need it to be 2 tiles high, and allow you to walk on top of it.

and also walk THROUGH it, otherwise you can't access it from the side as you can now.

so. I can do it, if we're willing to live with these limitations.

removing dirt in LeafCoats is going to require quite some micromanaging.

also consider you build explosives on top of dirt and blast down, I don't think it occupying "Bottom" of the tile above would be a big issue

Since the tunnel script only replace the terrain at 0,0,0, I should be able to just make the block require the bottom tile to be underground, but the top tile to be above ground, where the top tile occupies Bottom as a minimum, so it replaces the bottom tile with loose dirt, that also occupies bottom of the upper tile.

Okay, first test is... good

They can both walk on top of, and through "Loose dirt" (which feels odd that they can walk through it, but it's necessary to be able to harvest it)

and amazingly, I know the "Demolish from above" part is working, because if they can walk through it, they'll harvest it from above.

(Assuming the path to it from above is shorter than accessing it from the side)

anyway, incomplete block, I know I can make it work, I'm going to bed.

(though there is a danger that, because it's a ruin, technically, the ruin height changer script might try and change it from a 2 high building to a 1 high building, and turn it into a 1 high ruin)

okay, it doesn't change into a ruin, or anything go wrong like that, but now I can't place it in the ground anymore.

[tender turret]

one step forward, one step back, now spin around...

[torpid patrol]

so you can place it on the ground, and it occupies in the ground.

but can't place it in the wall (you can't see my cursor here, I'm pointing at the wall

but if I select the other tool, you can place it in the wall

the difference is annoying, but honestly, it does make sense.

I should change the tunnel icon to have a platform in it instead of a stick of dynamite x3

and remember what I said about the micromanagement?

beavers are dumb

so I need to edit the "Loosen Dirt" model to make it more clear that it occupies above ground, and ideally change the tunnel icon to show a platform, rather than a stick of dynamite.

[worn ivy]

Could you implement the arrow system used by the dirt block, except in reverse (waiting for the block behind this one to be destroyed?)

[torpid patrol]

I'd have to look into it, but probably not.

I might be able to for block conversion, but unlikely for dirt collection.

[tender turret]

yes

[torpid patrol]

These are the rest of the "Tunnel" icons.

Levee (not much of a tunnel, but you get it), Loose Dirt (to be gathered) and Nothing at all~

[tender turret]

aww yes

i really like the loose dirt pile graphic

[torpid patrol]

Ignore the hard shadow edges, you can't see them in game.

[torpid patrol]

I can't figure out how the block knows if the block behind it is finished.

[torpid patrol]

flags

[viscid zinc]

Can they harvest dirt from above while standing on it? If so, do they fall down 1 block and get stranded?

Would they also they strand beavers working on further or opposite dirt piles?

Thinking this much about dirt, would you be open to working in some of the Dirt mod options, such as dirt stairs/ramps and dirt overhang? Also a thought, instead of excavating dirt and having to build stairs, is it possible to "transform" a pile of dirt into dirt stairs/ramp, a la a construction site ramp?

[torpid patrol]

they don't stand on it, they stand on the tile next to it, and access down.

[torpid patrol]

this is possible though.

Imagine if you had lots of blockages, and just marked them all for demolition, that's how it works. Whichever they harvest first, could leave beavers stranded, and other tiles inaccessible.

[torpid patrol]

I mean... tunnel logic can convert a terrain block into any other 1x1x1 block object. The problem is you're working with a building INSIDE a block, you can't easily see which way around the stairs would be.

Current blocks that have been used include Platform, Levee, Vertical Power Shaft, and Vertical Tubeway. None of those have direction that matters. You introduce something like stairs (Which technically also needs the block above to be free, but we just have the condition that it's already free in the construction site) that needs to be rotated the right way, and all of a sudden you have the problem of... how do you build it the right way around?

It's doable, it's just... difficult to let the player get it the right way around, since the stairs preview would be inside the terrain block.

[viscid zinc]

Hmm there's no way to force the logic to place the object in a viable way for to connect the path?

[torpid patrol]

now you're assuming the player draws the path before trying to convert the terrain block into stairs.

[viscid zinc]

Would you be able to see the path line preview to know?

I am, but if that's the limitation, that's a fairly minor one from a player perspective.

[torpid patrol]

the convertion "Tunnel" that you place wouldn't have the path mesh, so the game isn't going to render it. the nav mesh will only exist after the stairs have been placed.

[worn ivy]

Also, keep in mind that stairs are actually 2 blocks tall; I don't know how the tunnel script handles that.

[torpid patrol]

I did mention that. It works if you make the "Tunnel" a 2 tall underground building, where the bottom block is underground, and the top block is above ground. It works like placing an underground storage.

[worn ivy]

The one thing I could see doing is changing the top of the tunnel's preview to have an arrow pointing in the "upward" direction of the staircase.

[viscid zinc]

It's something to think about. Whether you want to include it or try to work it out is up to you. It was a random thought. But if this only works with your dirt blocks and not regular terrain then I don't think it matters. It's already a process to go from terrain -> dirt block. If it's simpler to harvest the dirt and then place stairs/ramps, leave it at that.

On a completely different note, it would be funny and interesting, if it were possible to include a random generator that has a chance to spawn an item, an human antique, a relic, some bits of food during excavation or dirt harvesting.

[worn ivy]

I don't feel like that fits this faction.

[viscid zinc]

Fair enough. Just listing ideas as they come.

[torpid patrol]

I'm not sure I want to include turning terrain tiles into dirt stairs either. It's not a bad idea though.

[worn ivy]

The staircase idea sounds like one of those things to throw in a small standalone mod.

[torpid patrol]

yeah

[earnest coral]

Will this faction use any badwater/extract at all? if not -what can they use for detailer tatoos instead?

[worn ivy]

They won't use badwater, but they will heavily use extract in it's place.

[torpid patrol]

It will use Extract, yes. They don't make explosives from Bad water, but will use the Extract in dirt removal, and other things.

That's why I was considering the bad water rig having a recipe to just make extract straight from the source, there's no need to even have Bad Water for anything other than making Extract.

[torpid patrol]

so should the leafcoats have a badwater dome and badwater rig, or just the rig?

so I'm like... well... I can't add items to existing trees, the game doesn't like it.

So, google, what types of tree do you typically harvest bark from...

Birch, Oak, Pine and Chestnut... Yeah...

[glad oriole]

cherry trees

but also willows, elm, and cedar

I'd go with willow myself

they look cool

alternatively, eucalyptus trees shed their bark in the summer

[torpid patrol]

hmmm

if I went Cherry, I'd be doing it for the fruit, not the bark, and you can't have 2 things.

Ideally, I'd edit birch, because it would be so ideal to make that tree useful. Just not sure how. The game crashes if you do.

[glad oriole]

can you edit birch to not give logs at all but give bark instead?

[torpid patrol]

Chop down the tree to give bark?

kinda defeats the purpose of avoiding chopping down trees.

[glad oriole]

I was more thinking as a theoretical experiment - does the game break when you make any edits, or just when you add another stage to its growth?

[torpid patrol]

It's because you're adding a new inventory.

[glad oriole]

hmm... and I'm assuming you can't fake it by having the plantable trees list not include basegame birch but instead include a modded birch that's visually identical, while keeping basegame birch for what the map starts with?

If that's possible, is it also possible to do a thing when loading a new savefile that deletes all basegame birch and replaces it with modded birch?

that's the workaround I'd try, I'm assuming you've also tried and some part of that doesn't work but...

[torpid patrol]

I don't think you can have a tree available without it being plantable.

can't even set it to dev mode only

[torpid patrol]

this is what crashes the game.

[glad oriole]

So modifying the base crashes it, and replacing them also crashes it. Lovely

[torpid patrol]

Yes.

[glad oriole]

Could always do the whitepaws red cabbage + assistant farmhouse trick IG

have birch exist as a plantable thing with a note saying "this is just to keep the mod from breaking"

and have upgraded birch next to it

[torpid patrol]

or just pick something other than birch

shame though, birch would have been perfect.

[glad oriole]

ye, again, eucalyptus trees shed bark

so they're also kinda perfect

bark can be harvested at almost no risk to the tree

[torpid patrol]

its not a bad suggestion

[glad oriole]

crape myrtle also sheds bark, and is beautiful

[torpid patrol]

and difficult to model

[glad oriole]

fair

[torpid patrol]

I'm not saying impossible, just difficult. I'm not exactly an experienced 3D artists.

Trees in timberborn also make extensive use of vertex colouring

[worn ivy]

If you want something to confuse people with... Osage Orange.

The fruit looks like a bright green spherical brain, and is hilariously inedible to every species of animal alive today, as it contains natural latex.
The only part that can actually be eaten is the seeds, which is usally the part the plant doesn't want you to eat.

[earnest coral]

weird question. can you add script to hats? you want a "woodcutter" that produces Bark/different resource. what if you make him a regular woodcutter but with a worktime penalty. will cut wood as normal, just takes forever to do so. his hat however would destroy trees that are close to it to /kills tree first, -then drops reskinned rubble with resource. killing behaviour would need small range and timer to only affect tree woodworker is working on. but if you can give your worker a hat, it should stay with worker and naturally close to resources he is working on

[torpid patrol]

I mean... changing the hat shouldn't be hard...
The problem is actually animation, those are very difficult to add.

at least I imagine so, I've never done oen.

[torpid patrol]

the more round part moves

I'm still tweaking it, but, what do you think? can you tell what it's supposed to be?

I was considering more metal rings around it too, but decided probably not.

just the one on the bottom, and the frame around the hole.

if you look closely, you can see it's probably made almost entirely out of metal, and the bark on the outside is decorative.

I'm also just thinking, like... Don't put any doors on it at all.

now, that might sound counter intuitive, but if you know how this stuff works, the door appears when you connect a path there, and a different door appears when you connect a branch there.

so just use the scripted window/door/branch-door thing.

[worn ivy]

With knowledge of the base-game factions, well enough.
I think the build menu will do the heavy lifting for the rest of it.
There really ought to be a tag "must be built on a badwater source"; that would instantly make it clear.

The bark seems darker than normal; is that just the lighting?

[earnest coral]

if you only need a mobile trigger target staying with worker, maybe you can have an invisible hat, or small object you can hide inside beavers body.

[torpid patrol]

Probably lighting

[torpid patrol]

make it spin

[torpid patrol]

So, question.
I'm considering adding extra nodes to some Zipline thingies on the LeafCoats.

would it be more appripriate that the station can have 3 connections, or the poles?

[glad oriole]

From a realism standpoint, it needs to be an even number of connections since a zipline is a closed loop, you can't have a branching path unless you change from one line to another.

With that in mind, having 4 connections (and an interchange between the two lines) makes more sense on the stations than the poles IMO.

[torpid patrol]

Well, it depends how you do it, I guess. but, probably.

Can't have more than 1 wheel though, the logic doesn't allow for that.

[glad oriole]

fortunately, pulleys and similar wheels can be double belted

they need to be specifically designed for it

but the zipline already is kinda not really designed in the right way to work so that level of realism can be handwaved away

[torpid patrol]

Like beaver engineering in general.

[torpid patrol]

so...

water pumps

straw lengths.
FT: Water 2, Large water 4, Bad water 2, Mech 5.
IT: Water 6, Bad water 6, Mech 8.
EP: Water 4, Automated water 4, Bad water 4, Mech 6.

what should Leaf coats have?

They'll have Water, Large water (in a tree base, the pipe will be the middle tile), Mech... and Maybe bad water, I haven't decided yet.

[torpid patrol]

like the IT, they're not afraid of industry and automation, they just don't use fire, so no combustion. like FT, they're in tune with nature, probably even more so.

So, FT's shorter straws make sense... but so does IT's longer straws. which in theory puts us at the Emberpelts middle ground.

[worn ivy]

2 has always felt too short to me; I like 4.

[torpid patrol]

Agreed, 2 feels too short. I dislike going back to folktails because of their water pump straw length limitations

they don't need to be as long as 6, 4 is a good middle ground

On another note, they do know how to build vertical, so in theory if anyone would know how to build a long straw, it would be these guys.

how about...
Water Pump: 4
Base Water Pump: 4
Tree base Water Pump: 6
Mechanical Pump: 6

[worn ivy]

I just thought of that too

[torpid patrol]

even though the tree base is probably going to just be sitting in a stream most of the time.

I'm still torn between if I want a bad water pump, centrifuge, and bad water rig...

or just a bad water rig that gives extract directly.

[torpid patrol]

placing this is impossible.

You need to place it on the middle tile, but the middle tile needs to be missing for the straw to work.

Lets try this again, but shifting the pivot to the forward tile.

also the straw length is 6 there, even though it only reaches 5 tiles down, because the first straw tile is inside the bottom of the tree base

[torpid patrol]

I knew something was off

he floating

[hasty kettle]

chilling 😄

[torpid patrol]

I have no idea why, but when I set height to 0, it's 0.3m off the 0.

So, let me reduce the value by 0.3 and try again

[worn ivy]

That looks like it referenced the origin off of the wrong feature.

[torpid patrol]

looks better

It's actually an interesting fairly involved model.

hmmm, the blue planks...

I don't think I like it.

[worn ivy]

Yeah... that just looks wrong, on multiple levels.
It feels like an error texture, for one.

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, Vertex paint

I reverted it

[glad oriole]

Trees are actually some of the most efficient straws to exist, so like... having them be really long makes sense

[viscid zinc]

Are you able to do a multiple-straw tree base that is more efficient than regular water pumps? Even if the multiple straws are only there visually to simulate the multi-root system of a tree.

That might mess with the ability to have it fully supported from underneath though if multiple blocks are used for straws.

[torpid patrol]

It would mean writing custom scripts.

[serene elm]

or a bigger pipe section but really only take water from one slot?

[torpid patrol]

It's already a fat pipe

[torpid patrol]

you can see it here

it's almost the diamete of a tile.

[torpid patrol]

Something interesting to note between the 2 windmills.

the central shaft will spin the opposite direction.

I have a few interesting designs in my head.

[worn ivy]

Huh.

[torpid patrol]

Like, the small windmill could be just something you place on the ground, basically as it already is (considering alternate blades like I did with Emberpelts, but that wouldn't fit with the other designs I'm thinking of)

The next step up would be like a In-Tree windmill, like, a full 3x3x3 tree block, and the fan blades would be on the outside, so it takes up more of a 5x5x3 space, as the fan moves around the tree (rotating around the middle, like the existing windmill) based on the direction of the wind... the problem there is, you obviously have this tree trunk blocking most of the window.

But I do want some sort of in-tree windmill.

And the final step would basically just be some huge tree-topper.

probably just scale up the large windmill blades

one of the other things with the large windmill is like... Why does it even need to be taller? wouldn't it work like this?

it seems like it's a tile taller just because the devs thought "If it gives more power, it should take more space"

[torpid patrol]

wtf did I do ¦3

[silent shoal]

https://tenor.com/view/blue-da-ba-dee-eiffel65-gif-14330492

[torpid patrol]

was an accident, I swear

[viscid zinc]

I would think in the real world there's more breeze/wind/air movement up higher in the atmosphere where the air flow isn't as restricted, so they made a taller pylon with larger blades. Plus more clearance to not knock beaver heads with the larger blades aesthetically and functionally.

[torpid patrol]

I mean, the game doesn't take hight or obscruction into account in other areas.

[viscid zinc]

I know, I just meant from a design standpoint.

[torpid patrol]

part way through designing this

probably don't actually need the doors in here, but, they're there anyway.

[torpid patrol]

how open should this be...

because that's not open enough for me

[torpid patrol]

not sure why it has those power transput connectors there.

[glad oriole]

honestly it looks good, just... not for this faction

[torpid patrol]

It was a vertex paint accident.

[glad oriole]

I figured it was an accident, but my point about it looking good (but not fitting the faction) stands

Something similar as the palette for some other faction's wood seems like it'd be interesting

heck, if the bark was a bit more green and/or a bit brighter, I could see it as a fun palette swap for leafcoats

I adore the blue-green planks texture

[outer python]

could also do a vertical-axis windmill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vertical-axis_wind_turbine_at_Hartnell_College_Alisal_Campus.gk.webm

might fit your look more

Or a panemone if we want to stay more low-tech looking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panemone_windmill

[flat obsidian]

This looks somehow wrong to me...

[torpid patrol]

That's like what the Emberpelts use.

[torpid patrol]

this would work fine as is... but it's not finished yet.

note, it is actually modelled on the underside that you can enter this thing

would be for Branch access.

[serene elm]

not a biiiiig enough?
or maybe also a Large that has the wind part size as the base 😛

[torpid patrol]

I've only done the base so far, I do plan to make it bigger.

this is the actual, kinda boring model so far.

I just turned on the Large Windmill model at the same time so I could see it.

[serene elm]

thinking that the blades could go outside the base part meaning around or over twice as big 😛

😮 so its standalone windmill?

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, probably. I don't want them to go too low though, because then then base would be inaccessible.

It's just the Folktails model recoloured.

[torpid patrol]

If I make it bigger, I have to worry about how far out it swings

that will cover a 5x5x5 area

[serene elm]

🤔raise it up one to keep it closer?

Personally i like that its 5x5 as a top piece

[torpid patrol]

I went the other way and extended the frame

made the tail bigger too

[torpid patrol]

so the next question is, how much power should each of these generate?

Ironically, the tree topper can work well when placed on the ground, but the in-tree version can't

[serene elm]

how much is it between the ft small and large in percentage increase? thinking something like that as you can not place as many as easy

meaning large + Percent increase

[torpid patrol]

The in-tree, you can easily just stack them on top of each other, every 3 tiles (as long as you connect them together from below)
The tree topper takes a full 5x5x5 (Only the middle 3x3 on the lowest level), but you can't easily build over them.

[serene elm]

ya, so the in tree: i see as a replacement of larger windmill and the topper a boost from that.
the topper i see as a more late game item to give more power for long droughts

[torpid patrol]

Yeah. So... In-tree something like 250 and topper 500?

in FT, normal is 150 and large 300

[serene elm]

ya feels as a good start
also tought about using the top part of science hut for the in tree version?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1300977672037339188/1372724081866051636/20250515185035_1.jpg?ex=6870fbad&is=686faa2d&hm=660f16ec6b520491489729c4a034cd1bcfdea5fe21a5e3e835b8803bdbed8970&

[torpid patrol]

I could, but that's what I did for Emberpelts. plus that's quite a large size to scale up.

[serene elm]

hmm true

[torpid patrol]

things tend to look bad when you resize them too much.

I mean, did you even know that logs are hexagons?

[serene elm]

😮

[torpid patrol]

it doesn't look bad when it's small, but scale it up and you can clearly tell it's a hexagon.

anyway, so... 250 and 500 sound good?

should I also include a smaller normal windmill too?

[serene elm]

well its not hardcoded so for the beta i would say its fine
personaly i see no need to add a 3rd way if it has waterwheel in some from for the early game

[torpid patrol]

you can put branches up here too

[worn ivy]

Power shaft branch?

[torpid patrol]

Nah, just a branch.

[torpid patrol]

anyway, that's Power done.

what to do next...

Science?

Decoration, Monuments, Wellbeing, Science and Food are incomplete or not even started yet.

District Management, Housing, Landscaping, Metal, Paths, Platforms, Power, Storage, Water, Wood and Ziplines are done

though, I do need to revisit water.

Like I said, Pretty sure Bad water isn't going to be used by anything directly, it's only use would be to make Extract, or dump in the fluid dump.

So I'm considering just having a badwater rig that takes power to run and makes extract directly.

[worn ivy]

For housing, would it be possible to have a single barracks-style large house where beavers never breed?
They are useful when you want to set up a "work camp" away from the main district without having to manage breeding as well.

[torpid patrol]

that's why I did the Emberpelts don't breed and Phoenix pods mods for Emberpelts

on that note: Emberpelts Don't Breed will work for Leaf Coats too

I have been thinking about breeding mechanics, but haven't really done anything about it yet, just the 3 housing units. 3x1x1, 3x3x1 and 3x3x2.

so you want breeding houses, plus a non-breeding house? hmm

[worn ivy]

I guess what I specifically want is FT-style breeding, but rather than having to stack a massive number of mini-lodges to get housing for a satellite district so they won't breed there, just having one medium-sized house with the same "no-breeding" rule.

[torpid patrol]

hmm

Emberpelts didn't even have the mini lodge until recently

[torpid patrol]

Perhaps a Baracks could be an addon mod?

[worn ivy]

Seems reasonable.

[viscid zinc]

Is a separate mod easier than implementing mod settings to turn on/off optional features?

From a user perspective, mod settings is cleaner and less cumbersome and less prone to being missed when updating.

Emberpelts Don't Breed and Phoenix Pods could easily be optional settings features in Emberpelts instead of their own mods.

But I don't know how it is from a dev/creator perspective.

[torpid patrol]

honestly, I've never looked into mod settings to know if it's capable of doing those things.

[serene elm]

for enable disable buildings it would req custom code to allow it and risk of it breaking other stuff so sometimes its just easier to have 2 mods
but for things that already is done only with code its a good way to do.

[torpid patrol]

So I could do it to enable/disable Breeding in the houses, but not add the Phoenix Pods.

[torpid patrol]

So I made this a while ago...

I don't like like it, feels like you should be able to build on that platform.

is this better?

[viscid zinc]

A branch style shower? Very cool. Bottom picture looks as though anyone under it would get very wet as well 🤣

Maybe go with something with fewer slats or could you enclose the slanted/butressed part under the slats, so the dripping water is routed back into the tree for conservation?

[torpid patrol]

It's not a shower, it's a Zipline station.

wait, why is FT shower straw length as high as 3, when their water pump is only 2?

[glad oriole]

lower volume needed so they can use the same (or even less) force to draw the needed amount up a longer distance

[worn ivy]

I think it both looks better and makes more sense.
It doesn't look like it implies you can build there now; I agree that the overhang piece does make it look like you can.

Also, it just generally matches the appearance more.

[torpid patrol]

Yeah

Carousel and Wind Tunnel are in my notes.
Carousel as a tree topper.

should the wind tunnel also be a tree topper?

[glad oriole]

Hilarious but probably not great idea: wind tunnel is a 5x5 tree base that has room for a 3x3 tree trunk on top of it, and beavers get into that trunk by way of riding the wind tunnel up to it

[torpid patrol]

That would be an insane amount of coding to make work.

need to override the travel animation.

[torpid patrol]

I think this thing might look better with thatched roof isntead of the planks on the top.

not sure how best to skin that though, would take a while.

[hasty kettle]

looks really cool and different

[worn ivy]

Hmmm.... for the wind tunnel...

• 5x5
• must be placed on top of another structure (rooftop terrace rules)
• the 8 tiles surrounding the center must be supported (center doesn't, nor does the edge)
• Those same 8 spots are the power connection points
  Then you could model the a semi curved air intake for the fan that makes it look like it pulls in from the sides and blows upward?

As for entry, the beavers could either:

• crawl up through the center of the fan's shaft
• require a branch from another tree to enter via a door on the side.

I think requiring a branch from another tree would work well for the carousel; entering it from below would be awkward.
You might need to create a "branch access only" label for that to alert players, though.

[torpid patrol]

if it goes on top, then, yeah, the middle 9 tiles would need support (middle tile would probably be a ladder anyway, a lot of the tree parts have this included), so access would be by going up into that middle tile.

[serene elm]

or just hidden zipline?

wonder how hard its to hide that

[torpid patrol]

The problem is that Zipline is currently the only thing that really changes movement animation as you travel in a specific distance.

If you implement the wind tunnel as a travel system, well, it wouldn't be an attraction anymore, it CAN'T be an attraction, the game can't handle a thing being multiple things like that, the game will crash if it's an attraction AND a travel system (though probably could still apply the need boost if by area coverage, but then would effect anyone in the tree as it's a 2D area with no height limit).

so you'd basically have to implement a path with an overridden animation, so you'd basically have beavers travel vertically in a flying animation straight up the center with no variation in position.

It's just not something you can do the way you're talking about it.

[serene elm]

ya true

[torpid patrol]

Dance hall vs Excersize plaza...

Perhaps both?

just an open floor, where some dance but some excersize?

[inner raptor]

They should do yoga

[torpid patrol]

I can't really crate any new animations.

[worn ivy]

📦 ❓

[inner raptor]

can you do the excersize plaza and just pause the animation so it looks like yoga at the end of the poses?

idk if its on of those things where you can just change on number and it pauses

idk how it works for this game

like a 5 second pause on a jumping jack or something

[torpid patrol]

I doubt it.

if I could make a new animation, then sure...

I have no idea how to make a new animation.

Most of the ones I already made for particle effects, are just copying an existing one, and changing the colour and/or model, and maybe also position.

I don't even know where beaver animations are stored.

is that the correct facing direction for a shower?

also, look, it's Tobbert

showering Tobbert.

[worn ivy]

Yes, they always have their back to the shower head.

[torpid patrol]

hmmm, I added a beaver bust as a decoration, but do I really want a beaver bust decoration if it's part of the district center?

The only thing left to tackle with Decorations is Roofs (if I even have roofs) and Leaves (go on the side of the trunk or branches, so, probably an alternative for Roofs)

of course that means a more difficult modelling which is why I've been putting it off.

[viscid zinc]

Beaver bust, yes. It makes sense if it's the icon in the district center to also be spread around the population.

"We chose this to represent our district. We choose to place this representation in other places too."

[torpid patrol]

I decided to redo the housing, by adding an extra one.

Small, just a tree trunk edge, takes 3 tiles, houses 2 beavers.
Medium, Most of a tree slice (This and previous fit together perfectly for a slice) takes 6 tiles total, 5 housing 1 ladder, houses 4 beavers.
Normal, an entire tree slice. houses 6 beavers.
Double, 2 tree slices, 14 beavers.

Which means the small one has 2 adults, no space for children, so while there's plenty of room, no breeding in there.

Medium would become the new basic house that you start with, and small the equivelent of a mini-lodge.

[viscid zinc]

You say branch slice and I interpret that as part of the branches, which is what you are calling the skybridges/paths that extend outward from the tree. I think a more consistent terminology for these would be trunk to denote that these units are part of/used in the building of the main tree, not the branches.

[torpid patrol]

I meant tree slice

tree trunk slice

[torpid patrol]

Taken me a few hours to work on this

Hopefully all the waypoints are translated correctly (so we don't have beavers upside down or facing the wrong way)

4 seats, 2 on the benches 2 on the chairs.
4 swimming (2 down each barriered off side area)
and 5 floating (in the middle area)

[torpid patrol]

I think the only things I'd really change of that design are the positions of the deck chairs, and the floor colour.

[worn ivy]

Is this a hybrid of the lido and swimming pool?
Lane swimming on the outside, with general play in the center and a few deck chairs?

[torpid patrol]

yes

so I can see I need to move some of the beavers around a bit

It's a way to make something unique, without actually making anything truly new ¦3

My 3D modelling talents are limited...

I think save/load randomized who was in each slots.

I still want to come in further from the edges.

this is probably good enough.

[torpid patrol]

also keep in mind the Lido actually also had swimming lanes

they just weren't obviously marked out like they are on the IT Swimming Pool

I need to check something...

so the IT swimming pool has 8 positions and 8 capacity.

But the Lido has 9 positions and only 7 capacity.

so while I have 13 positions defined, I don't need to have 13 capacity.

If you follow the Maths of Capacity vs Area for Lido and Swimming Pool... I could have anywhere between 9 and 11 Capacity.

so I could do... Capacity 10?

[viscid zinc]

I'd decrease the swimming lanes to 1 beaver each and remove 1 floating beaver to get to 10 then. Or keep 5 in the middle and remove the bench on the same side as the chairs.

[desert rover]

@torpid patrol

idea: recycling unit

Want a unique unit for the Leafcoats? Consider that they would be even more conservation-minded than your average FolkTail brethren. So have a new kind of unit that can be used to remove plants and buildings that recovers 100% of materials versus the normal amount (currently set by difficulty level). To do them right, they would need their own menu entry rather than use the existing ones. Also, they would work slower than normally demolishing structures... just for a bit of balance.

This is probably a shitload of scripting, but it would really be a cool ability that no other faction (as of yet) has.

I have been wracking my brain for some more game-changing mechanics for Leafcoats. Emberpets have the incredible connected housing (I wish I had for all factions!) and all those juices! WhitePaws have more things than one can easily count. Leafcoats have great unique architecture and lore, but just one more thing to set them apart!

[torpid patrol]

It would pick them at random. Like I said, the FT Lido has 9 slots, but only allows 7 in at once. I'll keep the 13 possible locations, but limit it to only 10 at once, meaning where beavers are and what they're doing would be randomised.

[torpid patrol]

so... Mud pit vs Mud bath... and why...

regardless of model, I don't think it should use energy.

[wise mulch]

For mud pith, agree, but, for mud bath, you want a beaver to blow into ❓ 🤣

[worn ivy]

If you do choose the mud pit, there is one thing that has bugged me for a while: Why isn't it ground-only?

In either case, I don't think it belongs up in a tree.

[torpid patrol]

probably because it technically goes into the ground.

[worn ivy]

Well, it should, but it doesn't.
You can actually build it on top of overhangs, which makes no sense.

[torpid patrol]

hmmmm

Yeah, it doesn't actually go below the 0 line.

[torpid patrol]

I honestly haven't done many things at all that hang from branches.

how about... mud bath, but cut in height...

so it's just this

then make it 3x2?

[torpid patrol]

I may have slightly miscalculated.

[torpid patrol]

and yes, I fixed the bottom.

I need to fix all the waypoints now.

also, why are they suddenly up in the air like that? Had to fix the 90 degree rotation that gets applied every time you import an FBX into Blender.

[torpid patrol]

whoops

I think I went down by .3 tiles instead of up by .3 tiles for the floating beaver

also of course the lateral position

[torpid patrol]

there's bubbles on the ground, I need to fix that.

[torpid patrol]

so I moved the bubbles... they don't look right.

[torpid patrol]

by that I mean you can't see them at all

looks like a renderer issue

hmmm, even changing the renderer it doesn't work

[torpid patrol]

there we go, working bubbles. That took longer than it should have.

[torpid patrol]

so... this is technically the smallest mud pit/bath, at only 6 tiles (the IT has 8 tiles, because it's 4x4 and 2 tall, and the FT is 9 tiles), but has the highest capacity so far of... 12? it has 13 slots again (11 sitting, 2 floating), but I set it to 12 because I looked at the IT mud bath, 8 in a 2x2, this is 2x3, so multiple that out and get 12, ignoring that the IT one was 2 high, and this is only 1 high.

[torpid patrol]

Perhaps the Contemplation Spot should be something attached to a branch?

[worn ivy]

That seems fitting.

[torpid patrol]

I'm not sure if I want Dance Hall or Exercise Plaza.
or Exercise Hall... or Dance Plaza.

[worn ivy]

Too bad you can't randomize things such that the first beaver picks the activity for the day, and the others follow along.

…Observation deck that doubles as a dance terrace?

[torpid patrol]

hmm

[torpid patrol]

So this is what I have so far.

Yes it looks more Excersize Plaza than Dance Hall right now.

there's also a few parts where it's like... Should I do something about this?

[torpid patrol]

I changed the front part, better?

I can edit the rest too

[torpid patrol]

hmmm

Dancing on the platform

some dancing, some excersizing

so now I need to pick dance floor vs exercise, and position the waypoints correctly.

[torpid patrol]

so if that's the max height.... Why is this thing 2 tiles tall?

that's the line for 1 tile

the whole thing should fit under overhangs, with maybe slight clipping of those 2 middle posts.

I think it's fine.

[torpid patrol]

Sometimes it takes a while to fully import things like this into Blender

oh, you export as FBX and Import FBX in blender... but it has a 90 degree rotation on X, so you first have to replace all the materials, maybe do some more selective material replacements, Window Atlas is different between FT and IT so you might have to retexture those, or replace windows and doors...

But then when anything with beaver waypoints is involved, you have to make sure they're facing the right way, so have to do all sorts of translations. to put them in the right place and make sure the beavers are facing the right way.

[torpid patrol]

probably looks silly, but, that's the "Tree" edit.

Yeah, there's a door on the roof there, that's in theory where they're supposed to come up.

[torpid patrol]

I look at the wind tunnel though and I'm like... I'm not exactly sure this would make a good tree topper, and if it does, it would be pretty complex to remodel it.

so maybe I'll leave the wind tunnel as it is.

[torpid patrol]

It's like a cute little balcony.

question is, should that be instead of the ground based one, or in addition to it?

and what other buildings could I put as a branch attachment? (Currently only this, and the observation deck)

[torpid patrol]

so, what's left to do...

Decoration... Roofs. If I even have roofs, they'll be something leafy. Also I want to add the decorative leaf clusters you can put on Branches, and possibly even a large decorative tree topper.

Food... Basically all of it... Buildings and Plants, and I've done little on the planning stuff too.

Monuments... All of them. Tribute to Ingenuity will likely be a tree topper... and I'll obviously rename it and make it more tree-like, but it's gonna be based on that. Also a fountain and Laborer monument.
I have no idea what to do for a Wonder.

Science... Again, all of it. The only thing I have done is the Observatory as a tree topper.

We're going to want an inventors hut(not sure if it should be in the tree or just on the ground), Bot part factory (Probably mid-tree like the wood buildings), Bot Assembler (again, not sure. if we did in-tree I'd have to do a major redesign. it could be a tree topper, but then that's limiting. and stand alone would be as limiting as a tree topper)

Then there's other things to consider like... we probably want bot chargers (stand alone, perhaps one that charges multiple bots, and perhaps something that goes on a branch, or in the tree trunk), and some sort of Refinery, or Distillery to make lubricant or catalyst of some sort.
and I'm leaning towards some sort of Control Tower again, perhaps designed to be placed on a branch?

Then there's the stuff that I need to revisit.

like, Bark from the NotBirch. I've made a few things (but not many) that currently cost Bark, and I think the Scarecrow costs Branches.
nothing currently costs leaves but I should add costs for all 3 of these resources, plus a plant to harvest them from.

Birch for bark would be perfect if the game didn't hate the idea of adding an extra inventory to something that already exists and doesn't have one. (Crashes when you load the game)

So, new plant that gives Bark, new plant that gives Branches and new plant that gives Leaves, without "Harming" the plant in the harvesting process.

Plus a new building that can make "Logs" and "Planks" from Branches (and Bark).

Then I still need to consider if I want to remove Bad Water as an item, so you don't have bad water pumps or the centrifuge, just the bad water rig that gives you Extract directly.

IIRC, in Vanilla, it's used for exactly 3 things.
Making Explosives.
Making Extract.
Liquid Dump.

Well, Liquid Dump is Meh for dumping bad water (you usually use it to irrigate farmland), so if you can't dump bad water, no big loss.
And Leaf Coats don't have Explosives (their terraforming is entirely based on alternative tunnels. Either you mark a plot of land and dig it (with scrap) to turn it into loose dirt, that you then have to pick up, or you use Extract and Dig it to just make it go away)

As such, Tunnels no longer use Explosives, just Extract.

So of those 3, LeafCoats only "Need" Extract.

[worn ivy]

So, the only reason I can think of to ever dump badwater out of a fluid dump is if you are using pumps to clear contamination from a reservoir, and can't store the badwater.

Not sure if that single use-case is worth keeping:

• badwater as a material
• fluid dump's ability to dump badwater
• badwater pumps

As long as the mechanical pump retains the ability to separate them.

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, the mechanical pump would keep it's current functionality.

Currently, the equivelent of Dynamite is "Loosen Dirt" and "Remove Dirt", which are placed like Tunnels.

Loosen Dirt costs 1 scrap metal and creates Loose Dirt, a resource to be collected.
Remove Dirt costs 1 scrap metal and 1 extract, and just makes the block go away. (Like a tunnel without placing the platform)

and I'm not sure if costing 1 scrap metal is too expensive.

Considering you need to have metal to make an explosives factory, having it cost 1 scrap metal felt like a good entry level requirement.

[worn ivy]

If you do remove badwater entirely, would you need a combination pump/centrifuge to get extract without capping a source, or would you just force them to cap a source to be able to terraform?

[torpid patrol]

plus the dirt excavator costs metal too, so if you remove the scrap metal requirement, that's "Early game dirt"

[torpid patrol]

Only the "Remove Dirt" costs extract, you can still "Loosen Dirt" without an extract cost.

but, yes, you'd be forced to cap a source to get extract.

Considering that the explosives factory and dirt excavator both cost Metal to build (not scrap metal), I'd consider having both Loosen dirt and Remove dirt to cost Metal... but then that makes it even more expensive.

If anything, perhaps I should make it cost a "Shovel", and then have shovels be like, 20 from 1 metal block.

1 metal block and a bunch of branches.

but then you'd need a building that makes shovels.

[worn ivy]

That would make for some... interesting changes in gameplay, since you would need to push to secure a source.

As for requiring scrap to loosen...
Honestly, the two issues I see are that Scrap is HEAVY (11 kg of a normal beaver's 14kg limit), and that it is non-renewable until you get a mine.
Since you only need a small amount to establish explosives, extract, and dirt manufacturing, that normally isn't an issue, but as a direct input for the production of consumables... you would basically be forced to claim a mine as well to perform any significant terraforming.

[torpid patrol]

Considering they're nature lovers... kinda makes sense?

but yes, 1 scrap per tile is too expensive

what if instead the "Shovel" was made out of wood, but you needed to build a factory that costs metal.

[worn ivy]

That would be reasonable. My other idea is:
What if it was made out of wood, but the building consumed metal as "fuel"?
That could make the consumption fairly low, if you still want it to cost metal.

[torpid patrol]

the "Metal as fuel" thing is similar to costing 1 metal but getting 20 shovels, like I suggested earlier.

[worn ivy]

Anyway, either of those seem reasonable.

Actually, the shovels being all-wood would go a long way to explaining why they are single-use.

[torpid patrol]

yes

A plant and several sticks makes several shovels.

1 shovel per block.

Possibly even add the shovel as a requirement for Tunnels?

(in place of explosives)

[worn ivy]

Seems reasonable; they would basically be a 1:1 replacement.

[torpid patrol]

yeah

To do:

Pneumatic Tubes system:
Basically, every component of the tree should have item transfer connection points. All buildings with an inventory want to include a transfer script that only pushes items out of, or pulls into this building.
The Tube network should be mapped in such a way that every building that can move items has access to the entire tree.

Decoration:
Roofs? if so, make them more leafy.
Add other specific leafy decorations for attachment to branches.
Possibly a decorative leafy tree topper.

Food:
All of it really. Define the plants, define the buildings. There's ideas listed seperately.

Monuments:
Tribute of Ingenuity based tree topper, probably leafy.
The other 2 mostly a copy of the Fountain and Laborer Monument.
Wonder? no ideas.

Science:
Inventor Hut: probably just a hut, not in the tree.
Refinery: Probably something like this for making some sort of Lubricant.
Bot Part Factory: Probably in the tree.
Bot Assembler: not sure, try and think of something that works.
Control Tower: probably attaches to a branch somehow.
Charging Station: These bots recharge rather than burn fuel. Consider options. Normal 1 bot charger. An in tree charger for multiple bots.

Wellbeing:
A swing that you build from branches?
Additional hospital bed options?

Wood:
Add the plants that generate harvestable Bark, Branches and Leaves. (Need ideas for specifics for each plant).
New building that can process Branches (and Bark? probably with some sort of Glue) into Logs (with Bark) and Planks.

Bad Water:
Remove the bad water pump and centrifuge.
Edit the rig to use power and give Extract directly.
Remove the Bad Water recipe from the Fluid dump.

Terraforming:
New building that costs Metal to build (like the Explosives Factory) that produces several Shovels from 1 plank and some Branches.
Each terraforming building (Loosen Dirt, Remove Dirt, and all types of Tunnel) should cost 1 Shovel.
All of the above except Loosen Dirt also costs 1 extract.

That's basically my list right now.

actually, that doesn't include the part about tree gathering...

Glue...

How would we make Glue?

[silent shoal]

Tree sap?

[torpid patrol]

You can make homemade natural glue with various natural ingredients like flour, gelatin, egg white, milk and tree resin

I guess Pine Resin...

and if we want to apply beaver engineering to it...
Extract and Pine Resin?

[worn ivy]

The flour recipe requires boiling, but is quite strong.
Extract+ pine resin seems good enough, and wouldn't need fire.

[torpid patrol]

They don't have flour because no wheat.

[worn ivy]

Ah, that too.

[torpid patrol]

I'd say in theory Wheat requires murdering the plant... but... does it?
you can cut Grass and it doesn't die. Leave it to grow long enough and it grows a head similar to wheat, that you can cut off to get the seeds.

Does wheat die if you treat it like grass and only cut off it's head?

Okay, google suggests that while grass will grow another "Ear" if you cut it off, Wheat will only grow an ear once.

Why the difference?
Well, grass is a plant with multiple "Blades" of grass.
While if you cut the grass, and remove it's seeding ear, that blade will never grow another ear... those blades die over time, and new blades of grass grow from the base of the plant. those new blades can then grow seed ears.

Apparently, Wheat doesn't do that.

Which is crazy when you think about it, because Wheat and Corn are basically just "Grass that grows really big seeds"

tangent

[torpid patrol]

So this is the Outline of my to do list.

[torpid patrol]

Tobbert is dancing with A!

[viscid zinc]

If you're trying to make something more difficult than vanilla but less than whitepaws, you'll need some things that are complicated. Whitepaws had many intricate production chains with dual uses and specific buildings. Right now leafcoats has a theme, but it feels like vanilla replacements and rethemes without an increase in difficulty.

There are limitations in the theme (like the tree cutting) but is playing them more difficult than vanilla or just different right now? If you still want it to be more difficult, you'll need to add in more intricate mechanics, such as a shovel factory that siphon off your metal to make single use shovels. That's a choice and a trade-off because it will eventually force you to conquer a mine. You'll need to conquer a bad water source with a rig to move forward with extract production. These are good things because they drive forward the sense of progression.

Please don't get me wrong, I love what you've done with Leafcoats. Each innovation is interesting and I am excited to play them.

[torpid patrol]

So having Terraforming costing metal isn't a bad thing.

just probably not an entire piece of metal per block

[desert rover]

If you don't want to go that far, what about a slow-consumable metal? Like how wood works in several things... only some of the material is used for each item produced. Whether it is 10% or 1% or something.

For the record, I am fine with a production cost. But then I play WhitePaws a lot, so... I've learned to deal with a lot of challenges. 😛

[wise mulch]

fair, changes still coming for Whitepaws. Must wait for Leafcoats, however

[desert rover]

I love the difficulty and challenges in WhitePaws myself. But I know it is more than some people are ready to deal with. /laughs

[wise mulch]

still, never trust something free or too cheap . remember free power bilboard ❓ 🤣

[desert rover]

I wasn't playing WhitePaws that early.

[torpid patrol]

That's the fuel system, part of the manufactory (Workshops) so it only works with Recipes. So you'd have to make a shovel cost 1 branch, plus 5% of a metal...
Or you could just have it cost 1 metal, 20 branches and produce 20 shovels.

The thing with fuel is you kinda need it to use the same item for all the recipes in the building.

[wise mulch]

Or, shred a metal block (raw) into smaller pieces and use them in recipes.

[torpid patrol]

If said building only makes shovels, no problem.

[desert rover]

Not sure mechanically how it works in Lapan' stuff, but even the powered water pump slowly uses up wood planks as it runs, in addition to needing hooked to your power shafts.

[wise mulch]

YA, it use fuel field into recipes

[torpid patrol]

Basically, if something uses a fraction of an item, its fuel.

[desert rover]

makes sense.

[torpid patrol]

Still, 1 branch per shovel, 1 shovel per block transformed. That would be pretty expensive on your branch farm.

Would still need to define how fast branches grow, and how many per harvest, but most likely about 3 times the speed of logs.

So imagine a birch tree gets you 3 dirt blocks... and it's used by other things.

[desert rover]

Here is one of my own personal failings. I totally SUCK at balancing things. I can come up with idea after idea, lore, items, etc. But having me decided how much of X needs to be used to make how many of Y and I will fail you so hard.

[torpid patrol]

Sometimes I can be like that too, which is why I look back at how I made my Factorio mods.

some days I'd just sit there with a calculator for hours just punching in numbers.

like the Hydrogen. I could have just stuck the real world hydrogen fuel value in there, but then it would have been OP AF compared to other fuels and things.

So I spent hours calculating how much you get from each source, how much is used in other things, and tweaked all the numbers until I had something that was fairly balanced.

people still complained it was too powerful, until I ran the numbers by them and they're like... oh, yeah... that makes sense.

the fuel value was still fairly arbitrary though

[desert rover]

That is dedication. I applaud you. Seriously.

[torpid patrol]

it also didn't help that in 0.17 or 0.18, the devs halved all the fuel values of items, so while I originally looked at coal and said "Okay, this has a value of X, that's about 10kg worth of coal IRL, so each item will have a tenth of the IRL fuel value per kilo per item", I had to change all the numbers to reflect this change.

Gasses had a different value, because 1 unit of gas vs 1 unit of a solid... they weigh less.

[desert rover]

I don't think I was playing with mods that early in factorio, but I'm not sure.

There was one super-early mod I almost remember... but it wasn't updated. It had some really cool supply chains that basically made it self-sufficient. Had to do with recycling and processing plant matter and associated gasses. When it broke I went a long time before I tired modding the game again. By then there was a nice large modding community and a lot of mods.

[torpid patrol]

I first started modding 0.9.8 2 weeks before 0.10 came out

also, yes, 0.9.8 was the final version of 0.9, vs the 1.1 where it went above 100.

[torpid patrol]

hmmm

trying to remove Bad Water gives me this

ArgumentException: GoodSpec with id Badwater not found!
Timberborn.Goods.GoodService.GetGood (System.String id) (at <b389f3a087b54ee686fc73ab3f2077bc>:0)
Timberborn.WaterBuildingsUI.WaterMoverToggle.Initialize (UnityEngine.UIElements.VisualElement parent) (at <0698ab203bb44004ac4eb8ff49aed5eb>:0)
Timberborn.WaterBuildingsUI.WaterMoverToggleFactory.Create (UnityEngine.UIElements.VisualElement parent) (at <0698ab203bb44004ac4eb8ff49aed5eb>:0)
Timberborn.WaterBuildingsUI.WaterMoverFragment.InitializeFragment () (at <0698ab203bb44004ac4eb8ff49aed5eb>:0)
Timberborn.EntityPanelSystem.EntityPanel.AddFragments (System.Collections.Generic.IEnumerable`1[T] fragments, UnityEngine.UIElements.VisualElement parent) (at <db29bed6ef244207bff912e3aed9d1d1>:0)
Timberborn.EntityPanelSystem.EntityPanel.InitializeModules () (at <db29bed6ef244207bff912e3aed9d1d1>:0)
Timberborn.EntityPanelSystem.EntityPanel.Load () (at <db29bed6ef244207bff912e3aed9d1d1>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadSingletons () (at <9117b1294fcf4df390fc07f3eef2285e>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll () (at <9117b1294fcf4df390fc07f3eef2285e>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <9117b1294fcf4df390fc07f3eef2285e>:0)

and yes, I'm fairly sure I removed all recipes that use it.

[desert rover]

I've got my numbering wrong then. I'm talking years ago. Long, long, long before the spidertron was a thing.

[torpid patrol]

I think Spidertron was only added in 0.17 or 0.18

[desert rover]

I thought it was the 1.0 release reward.

[worn ivy]

Just a thought...
What about variants of 3x3 and 5x5 platforms that can be supported by branches?

Ideally, it would require 2-3 branches supporting it from different sides, but I don't know if you could make that work via a script, or adequately explain that to the player.

[torpid patrol]

Possibly, could have been 0.18 then, because 1.0 was just the stable version of 0.18.

But it could also have been as you say, added in 1.0.

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, not sure how I'd make that work.

[torpid patrol]

You also can't easily have 2 branches side by side as they cone from the side of a trunk.

[glad oriole]

could make it be like this:

O∆X
OX∆
XOO

where O can be supported or not, ∆ requires non-ground support, and X cannot be supported (so it has to be two separate branches)

basically a way to join together two trees' branches with a large platform

don't see a particular use case for it since the faction doesn't have many things that want a large area other than tree pieces IIRC

[torpid patrol]

I think it needs a window in the back

oh god, Blender crashed, and I haven't saved all day

there's an autosave from just before it crashed

whew

[hasty kettle]

yea its needs something for the back

[torpid patrol]

Window

So, what do you think this is supposed to be for?

[hasty kettle]

A birdhouse for pigeons that sit on the perch and serve as a way for transport and travel over long distances.

oder than that.. maybe the forester skin?

[torpid patrol]

Tool Factory.

and then there's this one

[hasty kettle]

thats a skateboard upside down 😄

[hasty kettle]

really good.. both looks really special

so the other one is the planks factory then?

[torpid patrol]

Kinda, yeah. The one that makes Logs and Planks from Sticks and Resin.

[torpid patrol]

that's progress for today though

[hexed crescent]

Any ideas for the wonder yet?

[torpid patrol]

Not yet.

[torpid patrol]

From what we know about the Leaf Coats, the Folktails Wonder is like... perfect for them.

short of changing it's shape to be a tree topper, I'm not sure what else I could do different right now.

[glad oriole]

Alternatively, could have them use giant leaves as paragliders, like Link does with the Deku Leaf in Wind Waker

https://tenor.com/view/wind-waker-the-legend-of-zelda-the-wind-waker-wind-temple-leaf-gif-23188618

[torpid patrol]

{
  "RecipeSpec": {
    "Id": "Shovel.LeafCoats",
    "DisplayLocKey": "Good.Shovel.PluralDisplayName",
    "CycleDurationInHours": 0.5,
    "CyclesCapacity": 25,
    "Ingredients": [
      {"Id": "Branch", "Amount": 1},
    ],
    "Products": [
      {"Id": "Shovel", "Amount": 2}
    ],
    "ProducedSciencePoints": 0,
    "Fuel": "MetalBlock",
    "CyclesFuelLasts": 10,
    "FuelCapacity": 5,
    "Icon": "Sprites/Goods/ShovelIcon",
    "BackwardCompatibleIds": []
  }
}```

how's that look?

half an hour per cycle, makes 2 shovels per cycle, a metal block lasts 10 cycles

so, 20 shovels costs 10 branches and 1 metal block, over 5 hours.

Yeah yeah, I missed something again

how many times a day do you think I see this screen?

[worn ivy]

Anywhere between 0 and 20, depending on what you're doing.
Less when you're not modding, and a lot when working on scripts and the non-model portions of prefabs.

[torpid patrol]

sounds about right actually.

Branches are still currently unobtanium.

Today has been a busy day already, so I don't plan to work on the mod that much today

I'm just mostly finishing off what I Started yesterday

gets pretty crowded

[signal fulcrum]

oula

[worn ivy]

For some reason, I just pictured a meeting between the leafcoats and the emberpelts…
It would not end well.

[torpid patrol]

Should you "Prune" (Remove branches) a willow tree?

apparently yes.

might be a good Branch source tree.

also contemplating removing leaves from the list of resources. Short of just adding them to random buildings, the only thing I can think I'd use them for is leafy decorations.

we'll see how that goes

So I'm going with Eucalyptus for Bark and Willow for branches.

Interesting note: Willow can survive partially submerged in water.

doesn't require it, but can survive it

so... yeah, gonna include that.

its just gonna be NotBirch and NotMaple for the moment though, gotta model these.

[worn ivy]

Optionally aquatic?
Is that as simple as shifting the flooding trigger up to the second block but not requiring water in the first block?

[torpid patrol]

I think so

most trees

Mangrove

Willow

[torpid patrol]

with the willow able to be planted in the water, that leaves more space on land for the notbirch

[worn ivy]

You'll definitely have some surprised players, but since all of the surprises are in their favor, it's entirely okay if it isn't fully explained.

[torpid patrol]

fun times

[torpid patrol]

I was thinking like... since there's no farmhouse with LeafCoats, should the Forester double up as a gatherer of some sort?

[worn ivy]

That would actually be quite convenient, since Gatherers and Foresters are rarely needed at the same time.
I don't know how easy it would be to implement though.

Ideally, it would employ at least two beavers.

[torpid patrol]

Yeah

but then it's like, should it be in the wood section or the food section?

so if anything, it would double as a lumberjack, or pruner.

or a tapper

Pruner would probably be the most ideal actually.

so it doubles up. Early game you use it for planting trees, later game you use it for tree maintainance.

[torpid patrol]

Being able to specify Gather seperate from Plant... I like it.

Could be better if the Locale entries made more sense though.

[worn ivy]

Two questions:

1. Is the "locale" part preventing you from labeling them "Prioritize Planting" and "Prioritize Gathering"?
2. If both a planting and a gathering errand are available, which will they do first?

[torpid patrol]

the GUI element for Gathering is provided by the Gatherers Flag's Gatherer Flag Spec, which is from the GUI element GatherablePrioritizerBatchControlRowItemFactory

still trying to find the one for Forester

I need to check if these locale entries are used elsewhere too

[worn ivy]

GatherablePrioritizerBatchControlRowItemFactory
That's certainly a name...

[torpid patrol]

and you look at the equivelent on Farmhouse or Forestry and it doesn't have a reference to priority.

SimpleOutputInventoryFragmentEnabler

I don't know why I followed that breadcrumb, it's obviously talking about displaying the inventory.

Okay... looks like "Planter Building Spec" is the part that adds "Prioritized Resource" dropdown menu.

[torpid patrol]

It's used on both the Forester AND Farmhouse, so you can't just just the locale to Prioritize Planting, because it would overwrite the entry on the Farmhouse too, where it's related to both planting and gathering.

The Gathering one however is added by Gatherer Flag Spec, which is only used for Gathering, so in theory could be changed to say Gathering Priority or something.

I can try and overwrite them both, and use a phrase that would make sense in the context of both planting and harvesting, like "Prioritize plant:"

Also, trying to clone this just for my forester would be insane, this is definitely something you'd patch with Harmony, if it's even possible to make a harmony patch that changes the value of a constant (the loc key), if not, would need to redefine the look up script (still in harmony)

either way, changing the locale key is the easy solution

and while it would work in English... might not in other languages.

Because we're tricking it into "Planting" in reference to my Forester, but also just "This plant" in reference to the Farmhouse, when deciding which thing to both plant and harvest.

I also tried to put the plants in a specific order.

it matches the order on the bar

note, the resource trees are currently very much WIP

plus I need to add more food trees.

and maybe bushes

[viscid zinc]

Why not make a separate service instead of doubling up the forester? Individual flags might work better, so you can tailor your workforce to the size of the area.

Ideally you'd only need the forester to seed a new location, not for replanting, since you are designing non-cut trees and non-kill plants.

You could even make the faction more unique by splitting off the forester (plants gatherable trees) from the gardener (plants gatherable bushes and produce).

[torpid patrol]

I'm going to include a "Pruning Flag" for Gathering the tree resources too, but as was mentioned, the Forester is kinda useless for planting harvestable plants once they're already planted, unless of course you have a disaster and need to replant it all

So, make it dual purpose with a planter and gatherer.

though... it is kinda lacking the priority of Gather vs plant.

Lets see how that works.

Gotta wait for trees to grow and yield goods first though

okay, so while it has the options for gathering, it doesn't actually gather at all

I guess I'd need to use a Farmhouse Spec for dual purpose.

I could make it work with the 2 different drop downs, but it's a lot of messing about.

[torpid patrol]

so, um... Control Tower costs Science to run, right? It works for IT and EP because they both have the number cruncher.

[worn ivy]

3 SP per hour.

[torpid patrol]

Adding it to Leaf Coats without having a number cruncher... hmmm

[worn ivy]

It isn't that it couldn't work with the observatory, it just isn't as clean-cut.
That said, since bots can use the obseratory in Update 7, a bot-only run would still technically be able to use them.

[torpid patrol]

10 points every 3 hours

from the observatory.

that would be per beaver

number cruncher is 10 points every 1 hour

[glad oriole]

so one bot in an observatory covers one CT, pretty much.

[worn ivy]

And considering there's no limit on the number of bots that can be affected by one controlled tower…
The player could either make it extremely efficient or pointlessly expensive.

Since most of the major work is in trees, though, getting a huge number of bots in the radius of one control tower wouldn't be that hard.

[torpid patrol]

true

put a control tower next to a tree with an observatory, and boost the science production

[torpid patrol]

Looks a bit small now.

but yeah, I wanted twin spinny things on either side of a branch.

a base recoloured LeafCoats Control Tower.

[torpid patrol]

a bit better, I guess

[worn ivy]

I was going to suggest hanging them from the underside just to see if it looks cool.

[torpid patrol]

hmmm

[torpid patrol]

A thought...
Since the observatory is not only slower at generating science, but also requires workers, would it be objectional to reduce the Control Tower's cost on science?

like, make it 2 per hour or something.

[hasty kettle]

sounds like a good compromise 👍

[torpid patrol]

so how to design the bot part factory...

Option 1: just keep it Vanilla style.
Option 2: make it a 2 tall tree slice (Probably look like any other tree slice, boring?)
Option 3: Partial slice that sticks out the side, but even then, there's multiple options.

3.1: edge of a tree slice, like most of the partials so far. probably 2 tall and stick out by 2 tiles, keeping a 3x3x2 size.
3.2: 2x3x2 in the tree slice, with a 1x3x2 sticking out. so still 3x3x2, but more in the tree. Big down side is you can only have 1 per level.
3.3: non-cuboid footprint, have the L shape like the treated planks Wood workshop, so you can fit 2 on a slice with ladders up the middle, also sticking out the back, and maybe the side too, so it's more a 4x3x2 with 2 tiles missing.
3.4: same as above but the part in the tree only 1 block tall. Makes them harder to stack, unless you sandwich something else in the middle.
3.5: more like the grinder, where it's a 3x1x1 tree slice entrance, and 3x2x3 factory on the outside of the tree, like the bot part factory is rotated 90 degrees.

[placid patrol]

perhaps use the footprint of a breeding pod to make bots grow onto the branches itself, upside down maybe?

like pinecones on a tree or w/e

[torpid patrol]

uuuhh... hmmm...

that would be more for the bot assembler than the part factory.

the problem with putting things on Branches is getting power to them.

also typically you have 3 part factories to 2 assemblers. We can change that ratio too. if the assembler works twice as fast, you can have 3 factories to 1 assembler.
or you could make the part assemblers faster, or the assembler slower to have 3 to 3.

come up with some sort of design where it all slots together like a complete unit.
Perhaps each part made in it's own factory.

so they're kinda designed to all slot together

though the problem with this is that the head factory is a lot smaller than the others, chassis being very big.

probably a dumb idea

[worn ivy]

A thought, and probably a dumb one:
What if the bot parts factory was built like the district crossing, where it is technically 2 separate buildings that are always built/destroyed together?

[torpid patrol]

That code is still a mystery to me to figure out. It's really complicated.

I mean, I know the basics of how the district crossing works, but unless you're specifically making another district crossing, replicating that would require a script rewrite, and that's really complicated.

[worn ivy]

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

[torpid patrol]

It touches so many things

[placid patrol]

yeah I suppose you can replace "bot" with "bot part" in my suggestion, but regardless it would be iconic for this faction if things like bot parts would simply grow on a tree

[placid patrol]

why not make them automatically transfer power, just like houses do in vanilla? or do you consider that to be too OP

[torpid patrol]

I have considered it. Most of the tree already does, and if the branches did too, it might be too OP.

Besides, to make that work you'd need to put a transput connection at every possible branch junction point... and if there's a transput connection there, the power shaft will be able to connect to it, so you'd have power shafts connecting to that half-height thin wall, which would just look wrong.

[agile ruin]

@torpid patrol do you a schedule foe when this new faction will be available?
I really want to play with them, and i can't wait to play as them

[torpid patrol]

when it's finished. some time next month, probably.

This is basically my to do list.

Pneumatic Tubes system:
Basically, every component of the tree should have item transfer connection points. All buildings with an inventory want to include a transfer script that only pushes items out of, or pulls into this building.
The Tube network should be mapped in such a way that every building that can move items has access to the entire tree.

Decoration:
Roofs? if so, make them more leafy.
Add other specific leafy decorations for attachment to branches.
Possibly a decorative leafy tree topper.

Food:
All of it really. Define the plants, define the buildings. There's ideas listed seperately.

Monuments:
Tribute of Ingenuity based tree topper, probably leafy.
The other 2 mostly a copy of the Fountain and Laborer Monument.
Wonder? no ideas.

Science:
Inventor Hut: probably just a hut, not in the tree.
Refinery: Probably something like this for making some sort of Lubricant.
Bot Part Factory: Probably in the tree.
Bot Assembler: not sure, try and think of something that works.
Control Tower: probably attaches to a branch somehow.
Charging Station: These bots recharge rather than burn fuel. Consider options. Normal 1 bot charger. An in tree charger for multiple bots.

Wellbeing:
A swing that you build from branches?
Additional hospital bed options?

Wood:
Add the plants that generate harvestable Bark, Branches and Leaves. (Need ideas for specifics for each plant).
Eucalyptus for Bark and Willow for Branches. Still need something for leaves.

there's certain things that I'm not looking forward to modelling, like the trees.

[torpid patrol]

there's other things where I know the general idea of what I want, but not the specifics, like the in-tree bot part assemblers, that I was talking about up here

and of course the Wonder, where I have no specific idea either.

[agile ruin]

for me option 3

[viscid zinc]

An idea.
Chassis in green (2x3x2 high).
Limbs in red 1x3+2x3 (overhang on height 2).
Head in blue (1x1x1+1x1x1+1x3x1 attaching them together at height 2) like an arch across the middle with a passthrough so you can still go up.

Then the bot assembler could be a solar-powered tree topper.

Just realized I didn't color the second story of the red part in red before I ran out the door. 🤦‍♂️

[torpid patrol]

The problem with the bot assembler being a tree topper is you need access through the middle tile, and that's where the bot being constructed stands.

I had thought about making them a tree topper before but...

honestly, I'd rather just have it as a non-tree building than a tree topper. so either like it is in vanilla, or something in-tree like the part assemblers.

not sure about that exact layout though, I'd rather have all 3 part assemblers about the same size.

[agile ruin]

For the wonder that is the idea of you using Yggdrasil to bear fruit and spread its seeds.

[torpid patrol]

but how does it spread the seeds?

I kinda like the FT wonder in general principle, how it opens up like a giant flower, very fitting to LC

but replace the particle effect (the lanterns floating out) with something else.

I've also never made a particle effect before.

[agile ruin]

You don't necessarily need to scatter seeds, but the idea of growing, blossoming.

[torpid patrol]

every custom particle effect in Emberpelts is just a vanilla one. For some like the bubbles on the phoenix distillery, and most fires, it's just a vanilla one repositioned.
For others like the decontamination pod, it's also recoloured.

and the most complex edit I made so far was for the wonder, where I replaced the lanterns with fire particles.

[agile ruin]

You can use the same growth effect as maple and chestnut.

[torpid patrol]

that's actually a change in model.

[viscid zinc]

Are the branches capable of supporting the skybridge stair/ladder system, so you can traverse levels?

Because you could design parts of the tree building to be only accessible from the exterior.

A branch at the level below with stairs/ladder up one level to then loop back into the exterior wall.

[worn ivy]

My former proposal for it still stands: rotate the assembler by 90 degrees so it stands on end, but leave the bot upright, and add a few supports and a "door" so that it looks concievable.
The door could also be a little balcony with a rail so a beaver can oversee the construction.

[torpid patrol]

Trees have 7 states. Stump, Baby well, baby dying, baby dead, adult well, adult dying, adult dead.
and if they have some sort of product, 3 more, product well, product dying and product dead.

[worn ivy]

No wonder they wanted to eliminate growth phases... each phase would be 3 more.

[torpid patrol]

I mean, rotate it on it's side so it's a 3x2x3 instead of a 3x3x2, then rotate the bot, that's a reasonable in-tree addaptation.

[agile ruin]

For decoration, have you considered the idea of swings hanging from tree branches?
You can use the same code as for zip lines, i 'm not a programmer its only an idea.

[torpid patrol]

pretty sure ALL plants use the same script too. Farming plants like Corn and Potatoes just have the 6 basic states (no stump), collecting the item kills the plant because it's using the Lumberjack mechanic, not the Gatherer's flag mechanic, that's why the plant goes away when you collect from it.

[torpid patrol]

no you can't reuse zipline code, that's VERY specific code for ziplines.

but I can add swings. Look at my to do list, it's in the Wellbeing section.

the beaver on the zipline is just a pose, like an animation, like dancing.

[worn ivy]

A hammock hanging from the underside of a branch with a "trapdoor" on the branch?

[torpid patrol]

Probably possible... might need to remodel the branch for the trapdoor though.

I was thinking more hanging over one side of the branch.

[agile ruin]

I think it would be a great addition if the wellbeing items were more related to the faction's theme. Another idea that I think would be really cool would be tree climbing.

[torpid patrol]

That's a jungle gym.

The main reason why my buildings aren't that unique is mostly because I'm not really a 3D modeller. I'm just kitbashing, and occasionally putting up new walls or cutting holes, and things like that.

so something completely new is... hard.

[agile ruin]

Yes, but not like the gray beavers, but rather focused on that photo I sent.

[torpid patrol]

but yeah... modelling it.

[agile ruin]

I don't know if you're developing it on your own, or if you have someone to help you with this most difficult part, but it would be amazing.

[worn ivy]

Actually, the problem would probably be the beaver animations to go with it.
As far as I am aware, no modder has made new animations for beavers or bots.

[torpid patrol]

All by myself.

[torpid patrol]

this is true, you need to reuse something that already exists.

so that means you'd either need a chair with a seat, so you just use the sitting animation.

or hanging on a harness, and use the zipline animation.

[torpid patrol]

hmmmmm

IronBot doesn't have a Harness mount point
TimberBot doesn't have a charging point.

could be an issue.

I guess it's not an issue

[torpid patrol]

So...

One of the things that makes Emberpelts unique is that they like Fire, but don't like Water.
I wonder if there's anything like that I can do for LeafCoats.

[torpid patrol]

I had a thought.

I should implement a decorator that listens to tree cut event, I found it in the code earlier, and use it to apply the Tree Murderer need.

[placid patrol]

Perhaps its possible to include a Tree "Need" which requires LeafCoats to be near a wild growing or planted tree

or create a "decoration" tree to serve that same purpose

[torpid patrol]

would require editing every tree to add the decoration tag. I can't really do that with Berry, Birch, Pine and Oak, as they're in common, and I don't want to mess with common, but I could do it with every other tree.

also there's the Garden and 2 variants of Shrub. There's also flowers in the contemplation spot.

[placid patrol]

I don't think it needs to be that difficult, you could just for example take the shrub and replace its 3D model with the 3D model of a tree

[torpid patrol]

That little plant murderer!

[wise mulch]

Nice, hope that beavers will have an sad icon 😍

[torpid patrol]

I'll have to make an icon for it.

[serene elm]

or a tree with a broken heart?

[wise mulch]

Except that the icon will be over a beaver, not tree 😭

[hexed crescent]

Are you still looking for food items for the leafcoats @torpid patrol

Maybe tomatoes

[worn ivy]

So... do dead trees apply this when cut down, or just live ones?
Also, what about builders doing "tear out" orders?

[torpid patrol]

Currently applies to cutting down any tree with the lumberjack.

I guess I need to add a state check filter to filter out dead trees.

Also, the remove natural resources (that builders do) would need to be done seperately.

[torpid patrol]

okay, so, I don't think I can filter it specifically to living trees.

The only variable on the event is GoodAmount Yield, that tells you how many of what item you get.

there's no link back to the original tree to check other information like it's state.

[glad oriole]

Regarding things that you can get leaves from, I'm thinking it'd probably have to be a broadleaf evergreen. (Evergreens bc they shed and regrow leaves year-round, broadleaf bc otherwise you're gathering needles)

That category includes several shrubs, so perhaps making those grow on "bushes" instead of trees could be a good idea. So, Abelia, Azalea, Holly, and Rhododendrons could all be used for leaf gathering

Certain species of Abelia have their leaves change color, which could be used as the indicator that they're ready for harvesting akin to blueberry bushes sprouting blueberries (even though for those species it's not an indication of leaf age, it's something people would intuitively understand)

Thoughts on making Leafcoats be more easily contaminated, since they're more in tune with nature and such?

[torpid patrol]

Yeah, I did consider a bush for leaves.

[torpid patrol]

not sure it's worth messing with that, that's just one of those global chance things.

[torpid patrol]

So, if you build my Terrain Removal tool, when it completes, if it causes buildings to collapse you don't get rubble, and I can't figure out why.

Looking at Vanilla methods, like Dynamite, it essentially does the same thing I'm doing, and you get Rubble.

[torpid patrol]

this feels like it's too small...

I like the design, but it feels like it should be an extra tile wide

[serene elm]

do it heigher?

or one more stickout in the front on the first floor?

so its 3x3 at bottom but 3x2 at top

could even be just 45deg up out

[torpid patrol]

keep in mind it's supposed to be in the tree.

The options really are... Go 1 block higher overall, or make it stick out the back more.

[serene elm]

that was why i suggested stickout that do not need support

so the image is seen from the side (right in your image
and from the top it could be round or 45deg from the side

[torpid patrol]

I was also thinking, how do we fit 3 of these in a 3x3x3 tree slice...

Could have it...

let me draw this...

[serene elm]

like an L ?

no does not feel right

[torpid patrol]

have 2 back to back like that, notice the layer missing in the top middle

[serene elm]

is this seen from the top? or side?

[torpid patrol]

then have a 3rd one come out the front like this

[torpid patrol]

side

so from top...

[serene elm]

hmm just thinking how it would look from the top

[torpid patrol]

ugh, I have to redraw this.

the top would either look like this...

or like this if I make it take a full slice.

[serene elm]

An alternetive?
Top view?
L= Ladder
_= Empty space
A-C 3 buildings (A is mirrored in this example)

AA_BB
AALBB
A_CCB
CCC

hmm would suggest maybe try it out in some basic shape in blender just rectagles added together 😛
to see it in 3d
and i have to continue work here 😛

[torpid patrol]

3 layers. lets see...

__CCC__
__CCC__
AAA_BBB
AAA_BBB
AAA_BBB

__CCC__
__CCC__
AAA_BBB
AAA_BBB
AAA_BBB

__CCC__
__CCC__
AACCCBB
AACLCBB
AACCCBB

like that

blanks in the middle mean you have to build your own ladders

and can probably stick a pair of something like 1x1x2 storages in those edges

actually, for the top layer...

__CCC__
__CCC__
AACCCBB
AA___BB
AA___BB```
might be better

[serene elm]

there is alot more C than A or B

[torpid patrol]

In the first version there's 2 extra tiles of C than A or B, 3 if you count the ladder.

In the 2nd version (where I only did the last layer) there's 3 less on C than A and B.

[serene elm]

😮 right looked to be alot more

[torpid patrol]

but that depends on making them odd shapes